Shuai Chiao Controversy Continues!

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Attention all Chang style practitioners read:

http://www.shuaichiao.com/real_shuaichiao.html

[Self-Thinking Follower]

From Chicione's website:

"Last but not least is David Lin of New York City, who makes all kinds of claims of skill and knowledge. One of the claims that specifically upsets G.M. Chicoine is Lin's claim of being qualified and skilled in Shuai Chiao. Mr. Lin had only six months of basic training in Shuai Chiao under Jeng Hsing Peng, the most capable instructor of the Shuai Chiao throws and Chin Na alive today. Mr. Lin is a perfect example of a martial artist attempting to sound credible and skilled based upon the fact that he is Chinese. In fact, Lin has no skill and merely associates with a lot of others like himself in an attempt to gain notoriety."

[Mark M]

I know David personally. I know my teacher, Master Fu Shu Yun, thinks highly of him and he is very repectful of her. I know through my teacher, that David studied with Master Chang Deng Sheng. He studied some with Master Fu but spent more time with Master Chang.

[Self-Thinking Follower]

I think highly of Mrs. Fu, she is quite a wonderfull person and I'm sure she would never say anything bad about anyone. I doubt however if she ever actually saw Lin Chih Young recieve lessons from Chang! I do know that she claims Chang as a classmate. I believe it was Lin who introduced himself to her as a Chang student. By the way does she still train the rare Taichi-Bagua system?

[Mark M]

Not only "claims" Chang as a classmate, she and Chang were close personal friends. You can doubt whatever you want, but ask Changs friends, family and students, if you know any, about their relationship. You will believe whatever you want about David Lin. Master Fu acknowledges him as a student of Changs as she acknowledges Frank Demaria as his student. They knew each others students well, especially the good ones. She has never mentioned this Gene Chicone person.

[Mark M]

I'm sorry, I didn't answer your question. Master Fu has had some trouble with her hip recently and is being treated. I don't think that she is back training yet. To my knowledge she hasn't passed on the Bagua Tai chi yet to anyone. She promised me she was coming back next year and then we will start.

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Mark, relax I know about their freindship and their studies under a number of famous teachers, you can even add Han Ching Tan, of Long-fist fame as another classmate!

Each one however really "Got In" with a teacher that the others did'nt, so since each is famous for a different line of CMA, Its the Nanjing Institute that connects them. I should of just mentioned that Mrs. Fu was a classmate of Chang's at Nanjing and not in Hopei province where he learned Kuai Jiao with his father in law.

I'm sorry my post came off the wrong way. I will try to express myself better in the future.

[Mark M]

No sweat, I get a little ticklish when people that I know get slammed. What are your links with my teacher? Many in this country never heard of her. I went to Chicone's site and looked at the photo section, she is in the Koushung photo in the center. Have a great weekend!

[TaoBoxer]

Who is the Chang that you were mentioning??

[Esteban]

Hi,

this controversy about who's legitimate in the shuaijiao lineage has been going on since Chang died. I quote from an IKF issue (February 1988):
"When shuai chiao grandmaster Chang Dung Sheng died in 1986, he failed to name a successor. When an American [Gene L. Chicoine] assumed control, Taiwan was pleased. Ironically, the objections came from America."
Mr. Chicoine is also referred to in the article as (at one time being) Chang's "then top student."
This says some fine things for Mr. Chicoine. However, remembering that the article appears in 1988, the authors go on to say "Two years ago, Chang Dung Sheng held a hammergrip on his style of shuai chiao (Chinese wrestling). Nicknamed the "flying butterfly," Chang was considered one of the fiercest fighters in Chinese history and spent the 20th century unbeaten. As shuai chiao's grandmaster, Chang was leader, father, and guiding light to 39,000 practitioners, 38,500 or 99 percent of whom were of Taiwanese descent." In the next paragraph, it reads: "Enter Gene L. Chicoine, a blustery Midwesterner with Karate and goju-ryu experience. Sensing his days were numbered, Chang took a liking to Chicoine, an ex-deputy sheriff turned businessman, and immediately began the arguous process of training him as a possible sucessor. Chicoine was Chang's first personal student in a decade." ...
"...in June, 1986, tragedy struck the shuai chiao community when Chang succumbed to cancer at the age of 76. At the time, Chicoine was first vice president of the International Shuai-Chiao association (ISCA). He quickly stepped into the grandmaster's shoes and began running the ISCA from its headquarters in Modagore, Ohio."
Mr. DeMaria and Mr. Chema, and Mr. Weng, who all claimed to have studied with Chang longer than Mr. Chicoine objected to his assuming presidency. Chang apparently believed that the hope for shuai jiao was in the west, especially America, and he put the Taipei Shuai Chiao Association and its affiliates under the control of the ISCA. Anyway, people can make up their own minds about who deserves to be grandmaster or who studied the longest or who was the most skilled, etc. There are shuai chiao competitions every year in the States. But, imho, sorting out these things is not even the point.
Finally, I just wanted to say a couple of things about training time. It is easy to say that someone "only studied with someone for a few years" and then assume that he didn't learn much. This, IMHO, is a western thing. Progress and accomplishment depend on practice-time, not class-time. Chang, for example, --according to Mr. Chicoine's website-- studied with 70 different teachers. Chang also taught a style of tjq, learned from Gen. Li. Other people mentioned in this thread also studied with many teachers. Indeed, Mr. Chicoine himself was a karate and goju practitioner before he met Chang. So, I don't really understand the complaint that Mr. Weng studied judo previously, etc. Oh well, I feel all the people mentioned are doing what they think to be honorable things in honor of their master's memory.

Respects,
Esteban

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Hey Mark, I met your teacher a number of times in the early eighties, she personally told me she was classmates with Han and Chang at Nanjing! A couple of my classmates in Shaolin Chang Chuan and Shuai Jiao were showing support for her by taking seminars on Hsing-I, there were other martial artist there as well including Tom Bisio of Pekiti-Tersia (Kali), and David Lin (Chih Young) of just about everything including AikiKai. A few years later in the late 80's she also did a demo for the International Tai-chi Institue, Lin your friend was there he was just a spectator. It would be a few more years before his name became mud in certain Taiwan Shuai Jiao circles. Sorry to speak badly of your friend to you, but I know a lot more I could'nt say without betraying the trust, between many sifu and myself. I can only say MONEY talks.

[Mark M]

I remember Tom Bisio from back at that time, I took a "hit medicine" course from him in either the late 80's or early 90's. As far as David Lin is concerned, I personally cannot attest to his martial talent.I've never seen him perform. The only thing that I know is that he did study with Chang and treated my teacher well, so lets leave it at that. Did you take the Hsing I class at the womens martial arts school? I forget the name of it.

[Self-Thinking Follower]

No, at the time, I had so much to work on already. I would of definately have recommended her! I hope she feels better soon and continues to teach, we dont have too many treasures like her left. I'm sure she could fill books. The best to her and you in your studies. STF

[EARTH DRAGON]

I dont mean to get off the subject but seeing is how there seems to be a lot of shuai chiao people here, is it possible someone could help me find out where the shuai chiao in our system comes from? our 2nd generation master Feng Hua Yi added it to 8 step and was a master of the chinese wrestling but I never found out who his teacher was. This information would be extremly helpful if anyone could give me these history details... thank you so much

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[MonkeySlap Too]

Earth Dragon, if you can email me at: MonkeySlap1@Home.com
and can tell me where and when your style was formulated, I might (long shot) be able to find someone who knows.

Keep in mind that Shuai Chiao was a common sport in North China for a long, long time. There are literally thousands of players, and it is not uncommon to have someone learn the sporting version casually.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[EARTH DRAGON]

thank you mr monkey any help would be great, I feel as if our 2nd generation master was not just a practioner of the sporting side of shuai chiao but a master of the actual combat fighting skill. I say this because of the shaui chiao I've seen seems more like judo (gentle way) were ours is more combative and much more aggressive usually breaking, ripping or tearing at your opponent before the throw, not usually found in the sport side of the art, but again I could be wrong. We do use 40 different throws (not sure if thats the standard) but extremly curious to find out, thank you for your help

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[MonkeySlap Too]

If you have a list of throws (the chinese characters would help) that might help.

Actually, the sporting Shuai Chiao can get pretty nasty. Most sport players also know the 'black hand' (no, they are not Italian).

There is a reason most Chinese 'boxers' stayed clear of 'wrestlers'. It's nasty stuff, and you have to be really on your game to beat a good wrestler, even a sporting one.

One guy even described the street Shuai Chiao matches in China as 'kilngon-like'. I loved that line.

Ah, heck. I digress. I'll see what I can do.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Kenji]

Its no surprise that even sports shuaijiao stylists are still a force to reckon with. Unlike typical chinese martial arts, sports shuaijiao learn to hone and apply their techniques against a resisting opponent constantly. And I'd imagine the elite sports shuaijiao players would have the chance to train and test themselves out with other grappling styles like judo and wrestling and even competing in mixed styles arena as in sanda. No wonder they're good.

[EARTH DRAGON]

here are the forty we have, I do have them in chinese but I dont know how to type them onto here. Some of them my be wrong becuse my teacher taught them to us in chinese and we have to translate them our sleves so here it goes
GO - CHUAN DANG
SWAI - SO BEI
KO - SO HUH
BOW - SAN BA BIE
CHING - ZA BA BIE
SHAW - JIA LIANG TI
SWA - CHEN DI TI
CHEIDA - SAN BA DENG
LABIE - XIA BA DENG
BUNG TIAO- FEN SOU KANG
DING KUAI- LUO SOU BIE
DIAO LOU - ZUA WAI CHUAI
AN CHI - HUN TUI KANG
TWAI DUNG- TUAN DANG KOW
YA TIAO - MA BOU TI
TAN HING - KAU TUI DI
JIAN TUI - XUEN BU TI
DA HUH - QUI TUI DA HUH
CHAN TUI- LOW
LIKANG - FAN TI

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

please respond to my last post, I will have to admitt I am a little pretentous about diplaying our throws to the world, so I would like to erase them as soon as I hear from you .... thank you again for your help on this matter.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'm checking this out...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Self-Thinking Follower]

ED, most of these names are quite known in Taiwan where both Chang's Shuai Jiao and 8 step mantis are popular. You should know that it would be difficult to prove connections, since a lot of teachers cross trained in Nationalist China and in Taiwan. Even teachers like Jeng, Hsing Peng of Chang's Shuai Jiao studied 8 step mantis and he and others in Shuai Jiao taught many present day teachers of 8 step mantis, among others, Chang's wrestling! Sometimes in exchange.

As for the names, I can make out some of them like "Ma Bow Tei" (Ma Bu Ti), but you really need to know chinese characters to get a clue as to what the technique may look like. For example, "Diao Lou", the character Diao refers to an action like that of an eagle stretching his claws out to hook a fish in the water, while Lou is the pulling in action he makes after the catch. But to make it easy for westerners, someone decided on the term "diagonal pulling" ?

Hope this helps, STF

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yea, I agree Self Thinking...

I was hoping to look for linguistic similarities to draw a general conclusion. But without the characters, it seems unlikely.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I do have them in chinese, however I do not have a scanner, I do speak some mandarin and was able to translate them to at least an english phonectic spelling, like wades/giles but as you know some sounds in mandarin have no english spelling. I do know that diao lou is a double hand pull down, and as you said, self thinker but I thought ma bou ti was spelled with a (TI) foot sweep..... horse stance foot sweep but again some speeling is impossible. to help with a date the 2nd generation master feng hua yi learned shuai chiao in apox. 1750 or so , hope that helps thanks again guys.....

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

PS. that would be in gimore county henan province R.O.C, not taiwan

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Rolling Elbow]

Why spend hours a day for two years just to attain Iron Vest if it won't even allow me to take shots to the groin and throat?

The Juko kai willt each you combat chi breathing in a few seminars :-/.. scary stuff eh? The groin shots are real...iron vest seems outdated.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Self-Thinking Follower]

ED, more specific: Ma(Sweep) Bu(Step) Ti(Kick)
Hope this helps, STF

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Rolling Elbow, while Iron Vest is part of CMA, its not specific to Shuai Jiao (Wrestling). If Chicione has it then maybe you can send some Juko guys to visit him and test each others ability to take shots. I for one am not interested in that subject right now, I am interested in the controversy. Thats the thread we're on, I do know that neither Chicione or Dr. S of Juko Kai would agree to take an Aids infected needle puncture to test their "Iron". Kind of puts it in perspective, Do you not agree?

[EARTH DRAGON]

dear self thinking follower, I have always known (mabou) to be translated as stand like horse or "horsestance", and (TI) to be a front sweep. I'm not sure on your translation. I am not chinese and only learned to speak mandarin in the past 6 years,so I may be wrong but that is what I belive to be correct.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Self-Thinking Follower]

ED, I've always understood it to be the same Ma as in "Ma Mei" with Ma refering to a sweeping or mopping action. Ma (Mopping) Mei (Eyebrows), if I recall my lessons in Ma Bu Ti you mop the back of your opponents neck, pulling his head forward as you foot sweep kick his advancing step. In Ma Mei you mop the front of his forehead at the eyebrows back. There is a lot lost in translation but generally the character refers to a mopping/sweeping action. It could be that someone used a different character along the way. This is understandable since most terms where spoken and not always written. In fact I do agree that most CMA experts in the past where somewhat illiterate. Of course having been born here, I too, am illiterate in classical chinese and depend on others to decipher the old characters. Even my wife who was born and raised in China sometimes needs help since she grew up using the communists new simplified characters. Kung fu is not the only cultural treasure they have been losing in China!

[falconer]

Chioine did study Goju Ryu in his youth. He began at age 16 while part of the U.S. occupational forces in Japan.
However, he had been a student of the Chinese Martial Arts for a good 25+ years before he ever met GM Chang.

[EARTH DRAGON]

thanks for the clarification on that. I do beleive our throws are the same, in ma bou ti we grab the side of the neck pull down which causes the back leg to lift, we grab the weightless leg and sweep the foundation leg in a clock wise direction. If you wouldnt mind please check out my website and click the photos page under throws, bung tiao and ma bou ti are pictured there, let me know if this is the same throw as you use.. or at least the effect on the opponent is the same for its hard to see with a still picture.. thank you...

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Esteban]

Hi Earth Dragon,

does the sequence of throws remind you of any movements in tjq?

Best,
Esteban

[Self-Thinking Follower]

ED, from what your post discribes, yes! but I dont usually lift his leg with my non mopping hand.

http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/087.jpg

[This message was edited by Self-Thinking Follower on 08-07-01 at 03:50 PM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

OK youve got me confused...in your throw what does the left or non mopping hand do? as you can see in the photo we use the left hand to lift as we sweep to spin opponent in C,W direction. How can you complete the throw without thew use of the leg as a lever?
estaban , not sure if I understand your question please explain.... thanx again for all your help

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Self-Thinking Follower]

There are a number of ways to hold, I generally execute "ma bu ti" after smothering a right arcing punch or in answer to a right hold. In each case I hold on to his arm while mopping his neck forward and around me (because my footwork causes me to turn 90 degrees) causing him to shift his weight onto his front leg which is trying to regain balance by bracing with the foot. Of course just as he places the foot down the kick (foot-sweep) catches him and the combined mopping (The body follows the head), My twisting shift (ala el matador) and his interupted stepping by my foot sweep cause him to be propelled (Shuai) into the floor.

I'm sure this discription may be more confusing, so lets just say they're a number of different variations on the techniques execution.

One thing though, we did learn a ground-fighting subsystem and we have also encountered dog boxers who are very good at riding throws. Having your arm in between a dog boxers legs can be dangerous!
The throw application in Snake creeps down, found in many arts and called the "firemans carry" here in the west is found in Shuai Chiao and taught, but late Master Chang did not emphasize it for this reason; "snap".

STF

[EARTH DRAGON]

We too have ground fighting (low mantis) used by my kung fu brother joel sutton in ultimate fighting championship #6 and #7 which he won both matches with a combination of low mantis and shuai chiao very effective for in or fighting from a fallen postition. The throw you were talking about firemans carry thats like chuan dang, but as in the tai chi application Ive found it to be more effective if you lock the elbow straight over your shoulder to avoid your opponent bending choking or holdiong on as you shoot between their legs. You seem to know alot about shuai chiao, could you help me find out from where our lineage came from? it was added to our system in around 1700 by master feng hua yi our 2nd generation in 8 step but in our history does not explain where or from whom he master the shuai chiao style, and I am trying to figure this out. an info would be helpful thankyou ......

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Self-Thinking Follower]

Your right on the money, about locking his elbow! As for finding out about your lineage, I'll ask my mentor when he visits from Taiwan. I must say, however, that finding out information from the 1700s, that not recorded will probably be next to impossible.

[EARTH DRAGON]

that's the whole problem, we have our history from 8 step founder Chiang hua long in praying mantis right up to date , and we also have our wu tai chi history, but I do not have who feng hua yi studied under in eagle claw or shaui chiao. I am writing a book and having one heack of a time tracing back accurat documentation from 1644..... its not as easy as I thought it would be..... but thanx for your help and wise words..........

http://www.kungfuUSA.net