Bak Mei Form called Say Mun Ba Gua (Four Gates Eight Diagrams)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,

What is the essence of the Bak mei form called Say Mun Ba Gua (Four Gates Eight Diagrams). what is the main principles/ concepts learnt from training this form?

[fiercest tiger]

This is what i was told, i wont go into much detail but you can figure out the rest using the form. :)

Front, back, left right of the body....The 8 directions is the bagua of course relates to footwork and attack as well defense in those directions.

hope this helps?

Garry

[kung fu fighter]

This is what i was told, i wont go into much detail but you can figure out the rest using the form. :)

Front, back, left right of the body....The 8 directions is the bagua of course relates to footwork and attack as well defense in those directions.

hope this helps?

Garry


Thanks Garry,

Can you give me a little more insights on How you guys apply Front, back, left right of the body with the 8 directions footwork when attacking and defending. Can you give me some examples?

Is there a clip of this form that you can post.

[fiercest tiger]

I havent seen any of this form on the net!

4 gates relate to outside the bridge left and right, center and rear attack and defend from the 8 angles or directions the form, moves in these 8 directions turning left right, behind, etc etc!

It moves from outside the bridge to inside the bridge and can turn the opponent to an angle and doesnt necessarily mean you step to a direction! :)

Its a very long form and is very intricate some what! Have you seen this form also what makes you interested in this set?

Garry

[fiercest tiger]

You might want to ask some of the Bak Mei guys here, yum cha, also Mantis 108 Might be able to share some light on this form?!

[kung fu fighter]

4 gates relate to outside the bridge left and right, center and rear attack and defend from the 8 angles or directions the form, moves in these 8 directions turning left right, behind, etc etc!

Garry

How do you guys defend against rear attack?


I am interested in this set because I am doing some research on Different martial arts footwork compared to western boxing.

Can you give me some examples of the transition steps used to change position in the 8 different directions, are they similar to western boxing footwork, How is this 8 directions stepping different in Bak Mei than in wing chun.

[fiercest tiger]

Bak Mei uses, charging step, circle steps, linear stepping, triangle stepping, slide stepping, cross stepping (man jee gerk) or some call unicorn. Its very practical footwork some of the stances use high, medium and low during the form kinda unpredicatable some of the usuages are takedowns etc.

Defense from a rear attack, well unless you have eyes in the back of your head then you would use many of the above triangle stepping, side stepping, not to mention the back kick or gor man jee gerk, kol la (sp) 10,000 leg stance turn and seize, but u wanna be very good at timing to pull it off.

good luck with your research mate, let me know how things go would be interested in hearing what you get from it all?

Garry:)

[kung fu fighter]

Defense from a rear attack, well unless you have eyes in the back of your head then you would use many of the above triangle stepping, side stepping, not to mention the back kick or gor man jee gerk, kol la (sp) 10,000 leg stance turn and seize, but u wanna be very good at timing to pull it off.

good luck with your research mate, let me know how things go would be interested in hearing what you get from it all?

Garry:)


Thanks Bro,

I will keep you updated.

In wing chun there is the concept of always facing the opponent's centerline, In Bak Mei where on the opponent's body do you guys look to read his intent, and how do you know which one of the 8 direction you should go in?

Also when defending the rear do you guys some how turn to face the opponent again or do you defend with your back to him.




Bak Mei uses, charging step, circle steps, linear stepping, triangle stepping, slide stepping, cross stepping (man jee gerk) or some call unicorn. Garry:)




Can all the above steps be found in these forms

Sub Jee
Fancy Panther
7 Petal Plum Flower
18 Crazy Monks
18 Ghost Bridge
9 Step Push
Tiger Step Movements

[fiercest tiger]

Bak Mei uses centerline similar to wing chun, it will turn and face the opponent i was basically trying to give a scenario against multiple attackers sorry for the confusion. I think all people including bak mei will use there methods and theories different and apply to there abilities. Usually depending on the practitioner some higher level guys might leave open a gate or window to set up the attacker to have it closed and countered before he get a styrike off. Some might keep a close guard or the typical Bak Mei on guard, i myself like to shape shift never rigid continously flexible i feel i have a better follow up and it can confuse the attacker much easier. Also keeping the guard centered leaves me some what more venerable due to its basic actions, well against a beginner or some intermediate opponents it might get pulled off but it can be easily read. IMHO!!

Bak Mei use periphial vision and will not or should not lock onto a certain part of the persons body, the eyes scan and move rapidly looking all directions once they know they have control.

[fiercest tiger]

I couldnt say that is Futsan lineage which i dont know much about, im refering to CLC Bak Mei Pai.

I guess so they should have covered all those stances and stepping patterns??

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Garry,

You are quite knoledgeable, especially in bak mei.

How is Bak mei Different From Lung Ying (Dragon shape boxing) in terms of body mechanics, Footwork, and principles?

[Juan Nowon]

Thanks Garry,

You are quite knoledgeable, especially in bak mei.

How is Bak mei Different From Lung Ying (Dragon shape boxing) in terms of body mechanics, Footwork, and principles?

This first link is Lung Ying, despite the wording error in the begining of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEL_GpG15dg

Here is Bak Mei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1h_gZEf1JA

Thses clips are both very good demonstrations of the respective arts.

You can see for yourself the differences between Lung Ying and Bak Mei.

[Yum Cha]

Hi

Say Mun Ba Qua - the four gates is more important in the meaning than the Ba Qua. A Ba Qua, while meaning 8 directions, also means a completeness. A full set, like a Ba Qua represents all the elements, the universe, whatever.

The form teaches attacks involving turning the opponent to the right, the left, going over and coming under. Naturally, this could also be interpreted as fighting several opponents, like most forms. It is a long drawn out form designed to test and demonstrate fitness and ferociousness.

Pak Mei uses centerline theory, but this form is an example of techniques to fight against centerline fighters. Four gates around a center point is how I see it.

(The form Saam Mun Ba Qua, three gates, is about left, centre and right. )

If I'm not mistaken, the form was created by Grandmaster Cheung, as opposed to being one of the forms from another teacher that he integrated into Pak Mei. It is one of the more advanced forms, but not one of the "special" forms.

Like Garry said, we don't look at our opponents directly, we look into their soul, so to speak.

As for back attacks and defense, sorry, but use common sense on that one. Sure there are a couple of back kicks that could be used, but if you become conscious of an attack from the rear, you turn your a$$ around and take it on in the most efficient way possible.

Loong Ying and Pak Mei are very close. Loong Ying uses more waist rotation than Pak Mei. There are some subtle differences in stepping and footwork too. Don't know that I can comment on the breathing, but I suspect they are similar, I'm no Loong Ying expert. That being said, our Si Gung was taught Ying Jau Lin Que from the hand of Lam Yeu Gwai, when he shared a Kwoon with GM Chang. Our Guangzhou branch of Pak Mei has more dragon flavour than HK Pak Mei.

[kung fu fighter]

The form teaches attacks involving turning the opponent to the right, the left, going over and coming under. Naturally, this could also be interpreted as fighting several opponents, like most forms. It is a long drawn out form designed to test and demonstrate fitness and ferociousness.

Pak Mei uses centerline theory, but this form is an example of techniques to fight against centerline fighters. Four gates around a center point is how I see it.


Thanks Yum Cha,

So basically the form teaches one how to turn the opponent to expose his flank, as well as attacking under and over the opponent's centerline bridge hand?

I am curious as to what the origional Bak mei forms were that was passed down from Monk Bak Mei himself?

[Yum Cha]

I am curious as to what the origional Bak mei forms were that was passed down from Monk Bak Mei himself?

Yea, why? He's dead now.

Don't fall in love with historical romance and fantasy. Martial arts of any kind live in the hands of the people who play them in the present day. The rest is just tongue-fu.

[fiercest tiger]

Kung fu fighter,

This has been one of the biggest debates in Bak Mei about original forms or the forms that CLC added or that he recreated from the original!

Yum Cha,

Nice breakdown....

I think you can breakdown the gate theory in many ways from bridge gates, to body gates. Some fights start from behind you sometimes you attack before you turn, spin, step or simple duck. My point was to show the person reading that you can attack even with you not facing them due to the different kicks, duck unders and takedowns the form has.

Garry

[Faruq]

That's funny. I had heard that Ng Mui separated from Pak Mei and the other survivors of the burning before she had even formulated Wing Chun Kuen. But I know there's long been a fierce rivalry between the two arts.

[fiercest tiger]

All styles are good and work, up to the person to apply! :)

[kung fu fighter]

Hey guys,

To honest i couldn't give a rat's ass about who's style is better. To me that's childish like the old my father is stronger than your father, I am looking to improve myself as a martial artist/fighter.

I heard that Bak Mei was invented to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses of wing chun. Can you tell me in theory how this could be done?

I am a wing chun stylist and would like to know what the perceived weaknesses of my style is from a Bak Mei stylist perspective.

[fiercest tiger]

What does it matter if i say that for eg: your stances is not as superior to Bak Mei stances as well the power is less will you give up Wing Chun or will you disagree and think FT is B.S or say yeah true? What knowledge have you got of Bak Mei to disagree or agree thats why i said my answer!

Why not start a thread and ask what is some weaknesses in wingchun?

[kung fu fighter]

What does it matter if i say that for eg: your stances is not as superior to Bak Mei stances as well the power is less will you give up Wing Chun or will you disagree and think FT is B.S or say yeah true? What knowledge have you got of Bak Mei to disagree or agree thats why i said my answer!


I would not give up wing chun because it is my choosen style, but I would ask for a logical explaination or reason why you feel that way. My knoledge of bak Mei is limited when compared to yours, and your knoledge of wing chun is probably limited when compared to mine, but here is a chance for us to compare our respective styles amd learn from each other through discussion.






Why not start a thread and ask what is some weaknesses in wingchun?

Good idea!

[fiercest tiger]

Ok, I get what you are asking!

I did wing chun for 4 years before YKM back in 86, my knowledge of wingchun is very poor as in names and terms. My teacher was of Wong Sheung Leung lineage!

I see similarities in the chain punch to the (buil jee) of bak mei which travel the same line also the palms are used in the same manner.

How would you counter the wing chun chain punch?

FT:)

[kung fu fighter]

Ok, I get what you are asking!

How would you counter the wing chun chain punch?

FT:)

I would Jam it before the momentum starts on the initial punch, the worst thing you could do is retreat or back up. Another option is to get off the line (change angle).

[fiercest tiger]

I wouldnt step back, but i would try and close them off and either, takedown, strike the neck or go for a choke, take the back and dump/throw or leg kick as the strike commences. Of course this depends on how good we are and how fast we can read the person which there is no guarentee.

FT

[fiercest tiger]

I would try and smother the bridge and sink and press and seip kuil/sau the throat, pak and Bin Choy (lung ying would call its Boi Gim)? to side of the head neck, back of the head if they come in to fast and furious.

Tarn sau type slide through to grab and knees and elbows or take the back to take them down!

so many things you could possibly pull off but this depends on your opponent, wing chun is very fast and direct, bak mei would use more circular with straight lines i guess.

Garry

[kung fu fighter]

Bak Mei uses, charging step, circle steps, linear stepping, triangle stepping, slide stepping, cross stepping (man jee gerk) or some call unicorn.

Can you give me a brakedown of how these steps are ideally applied, what their purpose is, and what position you would be in in relation to the opponent when the step is completed?

If you could relate them to wing chun stances and footwork that would be great, Since that's what i am most familar with.

Also how do you guys use the 5 element and 8 trigram concepts in regards to footwork and stepping?