Old school Kung Fu clips Circa 1960's

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSTyL333hRk

anyone recognise the forms?

[Faruq]

Bomb @ss clips, brah! Did you see how low those stances were! Some of them looked a lot like Okinawan Karate to me, though most had their own flavor. I saw these posted on the old hung kuen dot net forums if I'm not mistaken, but it was like 7 or 8 different links rather than one "best of" compilation.

How you found it, I don't know, but I was looking for these very clips just the other day. Rising Sun Productions dot com, hunh? Good stuff! Though I personally wouldn't want to start studying any of those styles, I do like to collect demos like that. Plus, it's an excellent way to show how deep horse stances are actually used in fights. On angles, while pulling in order to put leverage into your techniques and constantly moving! Great stuff, Royal Dragon!

[Royal Dragon]

I suspect the Okinawian looking stuff is some sort of Five Ancestor's Fist, or possibly Southern tai tzu. I'm sort of hoping some of those guys see this and recognise the set.

[Royal Dragon]

Here is another old clip of a Hakka style set. It looks like some sort of Sanzhen to me.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nsUR6hz5Fo

[Royal Dragon]

I am partial to this perticular vid.

It shows a form recognised by Tai Tzu player as a tai tzu set, but it's also practiced by Mantis guys. I think it's an evolutionary link between Tai Tzu, and Mantis personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo&search=Tung%20YingChieh%20Taichi%20Taiji%20Chinese %20Martial%20Arts%20Old%20Master%20Kungfu%20Bagua% 20Pakua%20Hsing%20Xingyi

[Faruq]

Beautiful clip! A definate treat for any practitioner of Hakka arts! What did you put in the search field on this one? Hakka?

[Royal Dragon]

HOLEY SMOKES!!

I just found a full length vid of the clip I started this thread of!!

One of the guys is doing a Southern Tai tzu set known as Four Doors! (1:11) It's the second set in my Southern Tai tzui system!

EDIT] OMG!! the set starting at 7:19 is the Yi Lu of Tai tzus Southern Monkey style!! The next set after looks more from the Northern, I bet it IS the rare 650AD Monkey often paired with my system!!!

Sfu Abel, care to comment here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5XMIQrvinM&search=Tung%20YingChieh%20Taichi%20Taiji%20Chinese %20Martial%20Arts%20Old%20Master%20Kungfu%20Bagua% 20Pakua%20Hsing%20Xingyi

[Faruq]

How do you find this stuff, RD?

[MasterKiller]

I am partial to this perticular vid.

It shows a form recognised by Tai Tzu player as a tai tzu set, but it's also practiced by Mantis guys. I think it's an evolutionary link between Tai Tzu, and Mantis personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo&search=Tung%20YingChieh%20Taichi%20Taiji%20Chinese %20Martial%20Arts%20Old%20Master%20Kungfu%20Bagua% 20Pakua%20Hsing%20Xingyi

That's Little Tiger Swallow, one of my sets as well.

[Royal Dragon]

How do you find this stuff, RD?

Reply]
Basically I have no life......

[Royal Dragon]

If you know the courasponding tai tzu form (I do), you can see certian key moves are done, in the same place in the Tiger Swollow form, and in the same order, as the original Tai Tzu set.

It even starts the same way. The opening designates it as a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan form.

For exmple, compare the opening from these two forms, to the Tiger Swollow. You will see the very first opening "bow in" moves are near identical, as is the very first technique (the punch in bow stance). The difference in the opening bows are minor, and as far as I can tell, just show these two forms are from different Tai tzu lines.

Of the moves that are different, I can see many of them in other Tai Tzu Hong Chuan forms, especially the kicks and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=

[jethro]

Freaking AWESOME!!!!!

[omarthefish]

Wang Shujin does a little performance in there later on.

We were talking about these clips over at emptyflower about a month ago. If you are really into this sort of thing then I suggest just browsing DPGDPG's collection. He has mountains of the stuff.

[jigahus]

Ya I saw that old shool video while i was searching for kf flicks on you tube. It's a very nice clip.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am partial to this perticular vid.

It shows a form recognised by Tai Tzu player as a tai tzu set, but it's also practiced by Mantis guys. I think it's an evolutionary link between Tai Tzu, and Mantis personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo&search=Tung%20YingChieh%20Taichi%20Taiji%20Chinese %20Martial%20Arts%20Old%20Master%20Kungfu%20Bagua% 20Pakua%20Hsing%20Xingyi

man, that's Master Kao, who did the Long Fist Mantis style, one of my teacher's teachers. Doing the Xiao Fu Yen form (small tiger swallow - which is a type of big butterfly), he also does a medium fu yen and a large fu yen form.

OF course you are seeing the tai tzu, he's the one that popularized the taiwanese style that does
- these forms
- ben da form
- mei hua 1 and 2 forms
- the taiwanese tai zu form that you have seen many types being done by
John Wang, and the older teacher video that in on Yang Jing Ming's website (that I got you a copy of) and also on those new instructional videos with the guy with the black haird pony tail don in the Hong Kong KF moview style.

It's no ancient transitional form, people changed the forms and made them interrelated. the forms of this quite famous taiwanese system are well known.

Northern Mantis is based on tai tzu anyways, so there must be some forms that are more fully tai tzu in flavor.

Here's what you are seeing:

Liao Wuchang & Friends

The video was filmed by Dr. Kenneth Fish at a party celebrating the opening of Liao Wuchang's son's kungfu school. This takes place in the 70's at Liao's son's school located in Yonghe, Taiwan. Performing in order are Kao Daosheng, Zhong Fusheng, Hung Yi Hsiang, and Liao Wuchang.

Kao Daosheng is performing Xiao Huyan, a form commonly done in Shandong Seven Star Mantis. Kao Daosheng often called his forms Changchuan Tanglang (long fist praying mantis).

Zhong Fusheng in his 70's performing eagle claw. Zhong Fusheng was the grandmaster of the Shandong Eagle Claw system.

Hung Yixiang performing Xingyi Linkage form.

Liao Wuchang in his 70's performing his Monkey Boxing form. After that, Liao and his son do some thows and basic Cai Family Shaolin blocking exercises.



Long Fist Mantis style history:
ChangQuan TangLang or Long Fist Mantis. HuangYongKai's student, Ji ZhongDe taught Wang SuTing (1884-1964).
The creator of MeiHua Mantis - Liang Xue Xian- had a son: Liang Zhong Quan. He taught Huang Yong Kai the Mantis.
Huang's grandstudent, Wu Su Ting, taught in Qing Dao at Guo Shu Institute and was a friend of Seven Star master, Luo Guang Yu and his disciple Huang Han Xun. Wang combined his MeiHua back with Seven Star and added different Long Fist methods to create ChangQuan (Long Fist) Mantis which, on Taiwan, is still known as Seven Star. Wang himself named his style Shuai Shou Tang Lang or Thrown Hand Mantis.

[Royal Dragon]

Very interesting.

My friend in Australia is of Liao Wu Chang's lineage. He says what they do is Southern Tai Tzu Quan. I have footage of Liao Wu Chang's son doing other Southern Monkey sets. It's supposed to be the monkey from Tai Tzu, but Liao Wu Chang called it "Stone Killer monkey".

I am going to hazard a guess here and assume Cai Family Shaolin is also known as Cai Family Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan?

I got into a heated debate with Mr. Fish over this once. I have comercial video's put out by Taiwan showing Liao Wu Chang and son's. It's called "Tai Tzu Quan", and shows many different southern, and northern sets from the Taiwan "Hong Fist" and Southern Fuzian lines of Tai tzu. M. Fish insisted i was wrong, and that Liao Wu Chang did not do Tai Tzu Quan...even though I KNOW one person from his line, and another who also does Southern Tai Tzu from another line who recognised the forms Liao Wu Chang and sons were doing on the tape *as Tai Tzu*.

That video is the copy of the one aired on TV.

It shows:

Southern Tai tzu
1. Sanzhen performed by Liao Wu Chang
2. 4 Doors, performed by his Son
3. Cutting Strike performed by an unknown artist, I belive him to be another of Liao Wu Chang's sons.
4 Yi Lu from the Stone Killer Monkey system peformed by Liao Wu Chang's son again.

Northern Tai Tzu Hong Chuan:
1. Tai Tzu Pao Chui
2. One of the Tai Tzu Da Hong Chuan forms.
3. Another Tai Tzu Da Hong Chuan form.
4 the second section (in parts) of the form Tai Tzu Chang Chuan from the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan style; performed by the girl in white. This is the same form as Oyami's teacher.

Misc:
Various Two man drills form Northern and Southern Tai Tzu, a two man Monkey set, a Gun Fist routine and Liao Wu Chang doing a sword and shield routine.

After discussing this with Shaolin Master (I sent him the tape), he recognised the sets. he does a different line of Southern Tai tzu, I think he said his is from Malaysia, but it's all the same stuff from Fuzian provience.

[Sal Canzonieri]

If you know the courasponding tai tzu form (I do), you can see certian key moves are done, in the same place in the Tiger Swollow form, and in the same order, as the original Tai Tzu set.

It even starts the same way. The opening designates it as a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan form.

For exmple, compare the opening from these two forms, to the Tiger Swollow. You will see the very first opening "bow in" moves are near identical, as is the very first technique (the punch in bow stance). The difference in the opening bows are minor, and as far as I can tell, just show these two forms are from different Tai tzu lines.

Of the moves that are different, I can see many of them in other Tai Tzu Hong Chuan forms, especially the kicks and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3tybhzweA&mode=related&search=



Yeah, Xiao Hu Yen borrows from the tai tzu form, it is from Mi Tsung style originally, if I am not mistaken.

There were 4 Chang Ch'uan Tang Lang (Long Fist Mantis) books published in Taiwan in 1996:

1. Tang Lang Shou (Mantis Hands)
2. Xiao Hu Yan (Small Tiger Swallow)
3. Si Lu Ben Da (Four Directional Boxing)
4. Er Lu Chang Quan (2 Routine Long Fist)

'Tang Lang Shou' is of Mantis origin; however, 'Xiao Hu Yan' and 'Si Lu Ben Da' are both a hybrid of Mantis and Long Fist. 'Er Lu Chang Quan' is basically a 'Taizu Chang Quan' (Emperor Long Fist) form.

Only 'Tang Lang Shou' was written in Chinese/English format. In 1994, Taiwan's Kuoshu Association produced another 'Tang Lang Shou' book, along with a video, of Kao Tao-Sheng performing the form with applications.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I just looked in my collection of chinese KF books.
I have the last three books in that list above.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think that is because Liao must have said they were mantis forms, instead of saying they were tai tzu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The "long fist" in Kao's mantis system is actually
Tai tzu Quan from Shandong.

I have taken seminars with his students and they knew a group of tai tzu forms
as well as these tai tzu/mantis mixture forms.

[Royal Dragon]

Very interesting.

I don't think Liao Wu Chang said they were mantis forms, I think he just refred to them as "Shaolin" to Mr. Fish. Actually Mr. Fish and I debated over the Southern stuff more. He insisted they were not Southern Tai tzu, but Cai Family Shaolin. However, if you look at the forms, and compare them to other players of Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan, they match up perfectly. Only small details differ. This means the Cai family did Southern Tai Tzu Quan, and Mr. Fish does not kow as much as he thinks.

We did debate over the Mantis set as well though. When I first saw it I imediately identified it as a Hong Chuan Tai tzu form, and told him he had it mislabled. He changed it at first, then did some checking and changed it back.

After "I" did some research, i eventually found that Shandong mantis lines have Tai tzu sets in thier practice as well, and I dedudced that this must be an early evolutionary link between Tai Tzu, and North Mantis. Basically I shut up about the issue as the Tiger swollow sets seem to be recognised by Tai Tzu Hong Chuan players, AND North Mantis players.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yeah, I think you are right about all this so far.

Cai family Shaolin looks very much as southern tai tzu to me.

shandong mantis is mixed with tai tzu, one of the masters of 7 star
went back to its roots and brought back in tai tzu quan forms.

This became Kao's Long Fist Mantis style, which made it's way to Taiwan
and then to america.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, I think studing the history and evolution of this is as much fun as practicing the art itself!

[Sal Canzonieri]

You now, I think studing the history and evolution of this is as much fun as practicing the art itself!

It is to me too.

[Royal Dragon]

Right now, I am doing both. I am reading informative posts, while holding each posture of the Shaolin 32.

I'm not doing so good either...I think I should make this my focus for a while.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think that you should search out some videos of
Lost Track style, mi-song, mi-tzong mi-zong, mi-zung, etc etc

and compare them to tai tzu forms.

I have a hunch that they will be similar.
this style comes from way back and is mor reliable than shaolin
to see what old chang quan was like.

let me know what you think.
if any tai tzu forms match up, cause this would help date the forms of both styles.

[Royal Dragon]

That is not a bad idea. Right now, I am working on getting you the songs for the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan so we can compare to the Shaolin texts.

One step at a time. :)

[MasterKiller]

Hey Sal, you have any idea how some of these forms, particularly Little Tiger Swallow, got to Korea? Though Lin Pan Zhang or some other source?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal, you have any idea how some of these forms, particularly Little Tiger Swallow, got to Korea? Though Lin Pan Zhang or some other source?

Ehh, well I've been only concentrating on Chinese MA history, I might have notes somewhere, I keep them when I find info, but I don't keep up with them.
TOO much to deal with just for 5,000 years of CMA!

If I see something somewhere in my research notes, I will post it here.

[MasterKiller]

Ehh, well I've been only concentrating on Chinese MA history, I might have notes somewhere, I keep them when I find info, but I don't keep up with them.
TOO much to deal with just for 5,000 years of CMA!

If I see something somewhere in my research notes, I will post it here.

I'm talking about CMA in Seoul.

[Sow Choy]

Royal Dragon, Masterkiller & All...

Thanks alot for sharing and finding these videos... You guys are the reason I always come back to this place, again thanks for sharing!

Joe