Taijiquan forms and style.

[abc]

Hi,

which is the best website for me to know that there are how many types of forms and style out there as I know there are a lot of commons and some uncommons 1. I would love to know the origin of each of the style too.

Thanks :)

[qiphlow]

most common styles i know of are: chen, yang, wu, sun, guang ping

should be easy to find info on any of these with a google or wikipedia search:)

[abc]

guang ping? nvr heard b4 I know there are top 5 another is wu also. I mean I wanna find the information like yang got many form also, 8, 24 88 etc.? I wanna know the move name etc.

[omarthefish]

Uh...."guang ping" is just a yang variant. Most people who teach it will simply tell you they teach "Yang Style".

The 5 standard Taiji families, the best known, the ones recognized in competition etc are:

Cheng
Yang
Wu
Wu
Sun

The two Wu's are pronounced with different tonal inflections in Chinese. One is from Wu Jianquan and the other is from Wu Yuxiang. Both are Yang derivations founded by students of Yang Luchan. Yang is obviously an outgrowth of Chen and Sun, created by Sun Lutang, has a heavy Xing Yi influence.

In recent years Zhaobao Taijiquan has been a hot topic. It is most similar to Chen but with less emphasis on Chansijin and IMO, is more carefree and even, dare I say it, "girly" looking. It comes from the Zhaobao village and there is much debate about it's origins and what particular relationship it has to the Chen style.

There's many more but those are the main ones.

[abc]

Thanks for the info, but if someone could provide a best link for information about yang style different forms or any other website to understand more about that, it will be good like what 24 form is good for begginer etc.. if possible I would also like to know more about qigong basic thingy too.

Thanks :)

[GLW]

If you are talking 24....there is one...created in the 1950's and derived mostly from Yang...but NOT Yang.

It is a standard routine...and amazing how so many do it so differently.:eek:

[qiphlow]

your best bet would be to find a good instructor! do a web search for "yang style tai chi" and you will find a huge amount of information. my teacher has taught me: 8, 16, 24, 40, 48 movement hand forms; long (108) hand form; 32 and "long" straight sword; 2 man hand form; broadsword; 2 man broadsword; a staff form; and a couple of fan forms; and a cane form--plus some internal choy li fut and some qigong. there are a million and one tai chi players out there, thus you will find the same number of flavors and opinions about tai chi. find yourself a teacher that you like, and stay with him (or her) until you've learned all you can.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

.... Yang is obviously an outgrowth of Chen and Sun, created by Sun Lutang, has a heavy Xing Yi influence.
.....

Please say this is a typo. :confused:

[omarthefish]

lol.

Just a missing comma is all.
... Yang is obviously an outgrowth of Chen and Sun, created by Sun Lutang, has a heavy Xing Yi influence.

What I meant to "say" was:

... Yang is obviously an outgrowth of Chen, and Sun, created by Sun Lutang, has a heavy Xing Yi influence. .


Sorry about the comedy.

[abc]

your best bet would be to find a good instructor! do a web search for "yang style tai chi" and you will find a huge amount of information. my teacher has taught me: 8, 16, 24, 40, 48 movement hand forms; long (108) hand form; 32 and "long" straight sword; 2 man hand form; broadsword; 2 man broadsword; a staff form; and a couple of fan forms; and a cane form--plus some internal choy li fut and some qigong. there are a million and one tai chi players out there, thus you will find the same number of flavors and opinions about tai chi. find yourself a teacher that you like, and stay with him (or her) until you've learned all you can.

wow, that was cool, I hope I can learn all the above thing you mention. wonder if my area can find this kind of teacher or not :) anyway, thanks for the reply :)

[B-Rad]

The mainstream Yang style has a few forms:
-The 108/103/85 posture form (Yang Cheng Fu's long form... counted different depending on who you learn from :p)
-67? move sword
-13? move sabre
-staff/spear

and also the Yang familly uses a couple of newly created short forms. A 13 posture form, and another 49 posture form.

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ is their official website.

A couple Yang style offshoot examples:
There's Dong family taiji (Dong Yingjie was a deciple of Yang Cheng Fu) which contains a fast form or two.
And Chen Man Cheng taiji. Another student of YCF who condenced his taiji into a 37 move short form and developed some of their own stylistic traits.

A few videos:
Click here (http://www.chipellis.com/videos/Tung%20Ying%20Chieh/TYC%20videos.htm) for some videos of Dong Yingjie
Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35sQXGCnerk) for a video of Fu Zhongwen (another famous deciple of Yang Cheng Fu)
Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVAlo&mode=related&search=) for video of Cheng Man Ching
Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Obta7XYTIA) for video of Yang Zhen Duo (Yang Cheng Fu's son)

[B-Rad]

Standardized taiji is a government system that takes elements from the various main taiji styles and combines them. Some forms were created to imrove health and teach some basic taiji to beginers, while others are competition oriented. The standardized forms I know of are:
24 form: a simplified form based on Yang style with a little Sun style influence, and some other little changes made
42 form: the newer competition form that combines techniques from the 5 major styles
48 form: an older competition form similiar to 42.
66 form: a long set combining the 5 styles
88 Yang form: a copy of the traditional Yang form with a few slight alterations
32 sword: a simplified sword form along the same idea as 24
42 sword: a newer competition sword form paired with the 42 barehand set
Also there are short competition forms for the 5 main styles... they seem to vary on how faithful they are to the traditional styles they represent depending on who you talk to...
Also I've seen a short standardized spear form and an ultra simplified short form (like... 12 moves or something :p).
And a standard two person form.

http://www.taiji.de has some good examples of many of the standard forms, and I think there's a Chinese Chen style documentary on there, also.

[B-Rad]

For all the styles history, it'll probably be fastest for you to do searches through google or something (like someone said earlier). Some taiji styles off the top of my head for your search:
Yang (Yang Cheng Fu)
Chen
Wu (Wu Yu Xiang) aka Hao style
Wu (Wu Jian Quan)
Sun
Fu
Wudang (various styles suposedly from Wudang mountain)
Old Yang taiji (various "pre Yang Cheng Fu Yang" style offshoots)
Cheng Man Ching
Dong
Li
Shen
Wan Sheng
Emei (taiji from Emei mountain)
Xiao
Zhaobao
Bagua taiji
Chang

[abc]

Thanks alot for the information :)

[charyuop]

and also the Yang familly uses a couple of newly created short forms. A 13 posture form, and another 49 posture form.



The 13 Posture is new??? I thought the 13 Postures was the base of Taiji.

Anyway, just to make things less confused for you in case you do not know it, the 8, 24, 48, 108 forms are not indipendent one from the others. The movements you learn in the 8 will reaccur more times in the 24, in the 48 and in the 108. Just to make an example, the first movement of the 24 is made of 3 same movements which is one of the 8 form. Every form introduces few new movements, but in everyone you will find the movements from the previous forms (just in different order). Some of the movements can have a very little change, but it basically remains the same. For example in the Long form I do (it is Yang, but as people said here, they are always different) there is a movement which repeats itself called Play the Fiddle/Lute/Guitar (even names change) which is carried out almost exactly in the same way with the difference of having once the hands facing (kinda, just a rough explaination) one another one palm up and one down and in the other hands facing one another palms facing the sides. These little changes might seem nothing to the eye of someone who doesn't practice Tai Chi, but they have a different way of being used in the applications.

Every single movement in tai Chi has its meaning, even tho they might look weird and at first sight just added for the beauty of execution, every movement has its own application.
From here your question about 24 being for beginners...the 8 form is for sure the one that introduces the very basic movements. It teaches how to move your torso and shift weight, going up how to step in Tai Chi, to how to change direction keeping well rooted, to how to keep balance in low stances up to how to keep balance on one leg. So I'd say 8 is a must and 24 is the natural evolution.
(I didn't mention breathing, coz even tho it is introduced in the 8 form, it takes a long time to learn).

[B-Rad]

The 13 Posture is new??? I thought the 13 Postures was the base of Taiji.
Not the 13 postures, but a newer short form that is 13 moves long :p


Also, I'd have to disagree with you about 8, 24, 48, and 108. The 48 form is a combined form with Chen, Yang, Wu, and Sun style techniques all contained in it, where as the 108 is the Yang long form (also sometimes counted as 103 or 85). While you do have crossover techniques, the forms are independent of each other. 24 and 48 also do the techniques differently than the traditional Yang style, though it'd be pretty easy to adapt the Yang style techniques to the 24 (take out the rocking step, change the way some of the postures are done, etc.). A Yang stylist wouldn't have much reason to have the 48 form as part of his curriculum, unless he wanted his students to have a little taste of the other styles or compete in modern wushu competition. I'd say the 8 move form is also unnecesary for most people, though it can be handy if you have a student who's really intimidated by even the 3-6 minute long 24 move form :p. Otherwise, I think it's pretty easy to just go from single moving postures straight into the 24 move form, or sections of the long form (if you're a strict traditionalist). Most teachers aren't even going to know the 8 move form due to the realative newness of it anyway (created in '99 I think).

[GLW]

For me, the 8 Posture and 16 Posture routines were and are a major waste of time.

I started with 24 ages ago. We learned the basics... stepping, stances, doing brush knee hands only, then with stepping, etc.... and then it got glued together in the 24 routine.

The 8 and 16 are fairly recent. They were created to deal with folks that do NOT do the breakdown that I learned under.

About 2 years ago or so, I went about 'learning' the 8 and 16. I found that the only reason I could find for doing it was to be in line with the mainland curriculum. It gave me nor my students any other benefits since I was already doing all of the things that you would get from 8 and 16. I introduced it to my class and all felt "Why do this, we got all of that ad nauseam when we began learning...and are still doing all of those drills..."

So, 8 and 16 are NOT necessary for 24. They are not bad...it is just that they are not the only way to get to a solid understanding of basics in 24. And 24 is not the end of things...even though that is the ONLY version of Taijiquan many people ever learn...and used to be the ony Taijiquan barehand routine required of Wushu majors in China's colleges.

[Buho_Nival]

here is a link to all the forms from Wikipedia, for what it's worth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tai_Chi_Chuan_forms

[abc]

oh, thats a cool site, now then I know there are soooooo many of them but maybe many of them are uncommon ones.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Don't confuse the "Forms" with Taiji.. forms are only tools that teach us Taiji..

Be well..

[qiphlow]

Greetings..

Don't confuse the "Forms" with Taiji.. forms are only tools that teach us Taiji..

Be well..

EXACTLY!
:D :D

[Buho_Nival]

true dat.....:p

remember that Wikipedia isn't really official in anything....anyone can add to the content.....but it is a start with the forms....

[scholar]

Yeah, Wikipedia is a good place to start researching something, but you'll have to verify anything you find there from outside sources.

I've been finding some pretty decent videos of old masters doing different forms on Youtube recently...

I'm also in agreement with Taichibob that doing forms isn't the same as doing Taijiquan. If you haven't gotten to the 4 taels to move a thousand catties point yet, forms (and pushing hands) are still just basic training. If you have, though, your forms will be works of art.

[omarthefish]

I guess it took untill today to be bored enough to comment on Taichibob's comment. :p

Yeah.

The thread was about different styles of Taiji. "forms" =/= "styles". One style has many forms and anyways he was talking about something more basic than that so whatever.

p.s.

No need to talk about "taels". It's ridiculously antiquated and obscure terminology. "ounces" works just fine. The original word in Chinese is "liang" anyways and today, one "liang" equals 50 grams. I'm not sure how close that is to an ounce but my point is that the exact terms aren't important so you might as well use a word everyone knows.

Hold on....

Just looked it up on http://www.onlineconversions.com/weight.php

The original text is "4 liang deflects 500 kg."

10 liang = .5 kg.
1 liang = .05 kg = 50 grams.
4 liang = 200 grams = 7 ounces (rougly)
1000 "jin" = 500 kg. =

So the traditional translation of "4 oz. deflects 1000 lbs." is wrong. It should read "7 oz. deflects 1102 lbs". :D . . . . :cool:

So like, just use words that make sense.

4 ounces deflect 1000 pounds.

Well.....that was fun. Also goes to show how stupid overly precise translations can be. :p

[qiphlow]

28 grams per ounce
14 grams per half ounce
7 grams to the quarter
3.5 per eighth
1 gram to the 20 sack:D

[brucereiter]

Hi,

which is the best website for me to know that there are how many types of forms and style out there as I know there are a lot of commons and some uncommons 1. I would love to know the origin of each of the style too.

Thanks :)

hi abc,

here are a few things for you.

-in my understanding tai chi chuan is a set of concepts and the various styles such as yang or chen etc. and all of their variations are different teachers understanding and manifestations of these concepts.

take yang and chen for example and have 2 people doing them side by side. the postures will look different even the ones with the same names but the core concepts are still there.

-2 forums the many tai chi chuan teacher and students post on ... you can ask lots of questions ...
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi#xing
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/TCClist/

-some interesting sites. i hope you note how different each teacher is. they are all doing tai chi chuan with their own understanding. some may be able to fight, some might just talk about fight and some may talk only about health and some may be bs.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/index.html (one of my favs)
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/styles.html
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/
http://www.taijiworld.com/
http://www.williamccchen.com/
http://www.shenwu.com/taichi.htm
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/
http://www.chenxiaowang.com/
http://www.truetaichi.com/true-links.htm
http://www.suntaichi.com/news.html
http://www.wustyle.com/en/index.html

-as stated before. google, the modern day oracal. you can find hundreds of versions of the history of tai chi chuan. you will have to connect the dots and see which one you think is true.

[abc]

Thanks for sharing your list of collection about taijiquan :)

[wudangzhang]

i will introduce the wudang taiji:

Wudang Taiji Quan highly stresses the fullness of internal energy, breath, and spirit. The eight criteria that Wudang Taijiquan stresses when playing are; lightness, easiness, roundness, evenness, flexibility, changeableness, steadiness and precision. The motto for practice is: to be relaxed, complete, prompt, and sudden. The peculiar principles of Wudang Taiji are to be hard and strong inside, round and smooth outside and to strike out quickly, quick enough so the opponent does not notice. Move like waves of the Yangzi River flowing to the ocean, one after another, never stopping.

from http://www.daoistkungfu.com/kungfu/kungfu.htm

[Doc Stier]

"....the 108 is the Yang long form (also sometimes counted as 103 or 85).
You are undoubtedly referring to Master Yang Cheng-Fu's Form Set, which he officially published as Yang Style Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set. This is the Official Yang Style Form Set taught by the current Yang Family Masters. It is a modification and abbreviation of the Old Yang Style Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set created by Yang Style Founder, Yang Lu-Chan, for instruction to the Imperial Prince.

Some practitioners and teachers of Cheng-Fu's Modified Set created some confusion after his death by renumbering the 85 Forms Set to 108 Forms. This led many people to believe that what these teachers were offering was the older Long Imperial 108 Forms Set, when in fact it is not. It is different both in content and in its siganture manner of performance, emphasizing health and self-cultivation benefits, rather than boxing skills like the older style.

Such renumbering may have been a marketing strategy of sorts, since the Old Yang Style 108 Set was associated with the martial art fame of Yang Cheng-Fu's earlier Yang Family relatives....namely Yang Lu-Chan (Grandfather/Founder), Yang Pan-Hou (Uncle), Yang Chien-Hou (Father), and Yang Shao-Hou (Older Brother). In any event, it is incorrect to call Yang Cheng-Fu's Set the 108 Long Form, IMO.

Doc

[B-Rad]

Thanks for the clarification/background on the numbering discrepancy. Glad to learn something from a 2 year old thread resurrected by a wudang business spammer ;)

[mawali]

The 13 Form/postures today are mainly 13 postures put together to make/equal 13 postures and that means 10 different teachers will have 10 different postures strung together!

The 'Older' variation of 13 "postures" refers to pen lu ji an etc and their respective actions and that is more involved.
Keep in mind that historical Chen family style, from which all major styles come from do have variation os 13 "forms' 'postures' etc per style/variation despite coming from a Chen source!!!!!!!!!!!

[B-Rad]

Since it's the first that's kind of expected, isn't it?