1986 NHB Sparring

[Faruq]

Anyone know where I could get the full length version of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvbIDwdA7Y8

Or the 1957 Taiwan one with Wong Sheung Leung?

[SevenStar]

nice clip. Notice how much grappling was seen, and how most of the high kicks resulted in someone getting dumped...

[David Jamieson]

yeah tere is a long version of it.

keep poking about at you tube.

use terms like "lei tai" and "shuai Jiao"

or variations of it.

there's some hamming in there too. :p

rule is you go down, that's that. or that's what it looks like.
everyone who got put down lost that round.

[SifuAbel]

nice clip. Notice how much grappling was seen, and how most of the high kicks resulted in someone getting dumped...

Yes we noticed, there is lots of that stuff in CMA. Notice also the very first kick KOed the guy cold.

Notice the monkey sweep delived by the guy in yellow. priceless.

[Faruq]

How come nobody like these guys ever entered the UFC back when it was NHB?

[SifuAbel]

They weren't invited.

[Knifefighter]

They weren't invited.
The UFC advertised in the major martial arts publications during the first three UFC's inviting fighters to be in the event.

[lkfmdc]

The reality...

There are a lot of reasons why you didn't see these guys in the UFC, not the least of which is that they live in China, not Los Angeles....

That being said, most would be serverly burdened by SIZE.. old UFC's had no weight classes.

Some would have beaten other TMA'ers.... all would have been utterly confused by something like BJJ. Royce would have tapped them like he did everyone else. It was an approach and techniques that they had never prepared for

[Knifefighter]

all would have been utterly confused by something like BJJ. Royce would have tapped them like he did everyone else. It was an approach and techniques that they had never prepared for
BLASPHEMY!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

but you don't disagree that there probably were some better guys out there for the first few UFC's.... the Russian AFC had guys who did combat sambo, or cross trained and could grapple and strike. The depth of some of the early UFC talent pool was pretty shallow... not that there was some secret death touch master out there waiting to slap a dim mak on Royce. But we would have had some more entertaining matches with some of these guys vs other TMA'ers...

[Faruq]

lkfmdc, are you saying the talent for the earlier UFCs was better than the talent is now, or worse? I'm kind of confused by your wording. I did like the rules better for the first few UFCs, but of course these days the best talent seems to be in PRIDE. But comparing early UFC talent to current UFC talent, I would think most of the guys now other than the champions can be pretty lame. It would be interesting to compare current UFC talent to early UFC talent.

[LeeCasebolt]

Comparing the talent level at, say, 1-6 to that of the current product is like comparing actual kung fu students with the stories of kung fu masters - one is so far removed from the other, it hardly bears discussion.

[SifuAbel]

The UFC advertised in the major martial arts publications during the first three UFC's inviting fighters to be in the event.

Do you actually read every matial arts publication every month? I don't. You must have stacks and stacks of these rags lining the walls.

Even so, what would anyone care at that time to go to some unknown small fry event. It didn't really blossom until later. It wasn't until AFTER the first 3 that people looked up and noticed. I mean really, I would have picked much better people to attend those if I thought the entirety of kung fu's image rode on the backs of those poor retards that went first. Win or lose it would have been a much better show.

[Faruq]

Yeah, I'd bet there was a whole population of martial artists in Chicago's Chinatown who never read gong fu mags (and that's just one neighborhood!). Hey, anyone know the word for martial artist or gong fu practitioner in Cantonese? How 'bout Hakka?

[Knifefighter]

but you don't disagree that there probably were some better guys out there for the first few UFC's.... the Russian AFC had guys who did combat sambo, or cross trained and could grapple and strike. The depth of some of the early UFC talent pool was pretty shallow... not that there was some secret death touch master out there waiting to slap a dim mak on Royce. But we would have had some more entertaining matches with some of these guys vs other TMA'ers...
Of course there may have been better guys out there.

By the same token, there were hundreds of BJJ black, purple, and brown belts who might have been better than Royce. By Royce's own admission, Rickson was 10 times better than he was.

The fact is that there have been thousands of MMA matches since the first UFC. Kung fu guys have had plenty of chances to deepen the talent pool. Just look at what the wrestler's have done.

[Knifefighter]

It wasn't until AFTER the first 3 that people looked up and noticed. I mean really, I would have picked much better people to attend those if I thought the entirety of kung fu's image rode on the backs of those poor retards that went first. Win or lose it would have been a much better show.

It's been a long time since UFC 3. Since "kung fu's image" could have easily been raised by doing well in these events, shouldn't the "much better people" have shown up by now?

[TenTigers]

two things-the people that fought in the early UFC's were for the most part,tournament fighters. Although there are many tough, hard tournament fighters,they were completely unprepared for the techniques as well as the level of contact-which I found surprising. I would have thought they would do some research before climbing into the cage, but we all saw it. One guy threw the typical shuffle roundhouses, backfists, and then got trashed. He even turned and ran. The "Kung-Fu" guy was totally unprepared as well as his actual Kung-Fu being, well-questionable.
Now,15 years later the sport has developed. The fighters are well versed in their ground game as well as their stand-up. oh yeah, and many of these guys are freakin HUGE. Just as basketball players are tall and lanky, football players are huge, UFC guys have created the ideal athletic body type for the sport-big, hard,muscular guys. The smaller guys are still built like brick sh1thouses.
The second thing-I have no answer why Kung-Fu guys aren't seen in UFC.
One reason may be because of the movies, David Carradine,wu-shu,videogames and the artfulness of the forms as well as all the kewl weapons, Kung-Fu attracts a clientele that has a high percentage of "fringe" people. We get alot of artists, musicians, and alot of people that buy into the whole aforementioned crap. These people are also most likely to be persuing other interests, such as Star Trek Conventions, Rennaisance Fairs, and Dungeons and Dragons. Others are probably into Falun Gong.
I'm not saying everyone who is attracted to Kung-Fu is a flake, but if there is a flake out there, and he is standing in front of two schools, one, a MMA school and the other a Kung-Fu school, odds are he's gonna wanna swing a Quandao and do a tornado kick, rather than roll.
Personally, I have a very small school. I have had only a few who wanted to go that route. One due to a falling out, is actually still persuing this and fights Full Contact. The other, although he wanted to do UFC, he went to college, got a girlfriend...you know the story. There were others, but life got in the way.
With larger schools, you have more to choose from.
I really think it is Kung-Fu's image rather than the actual art itself. There are many schools that train hard, have hard contact,fight all the time, but for the most part, these are the more "underground" schools. The larger schools that also train this way, I can't speak for. But I'm listening,,,,

[lkfmdc]

It's been a long time since UFC 3. Since "kung fu's image" could have easily been raised by doing well in these events, shouldn't the "much better people" have shown up by now?

Teh way I see it, and who knows, I could be wrong :p but CMA people who were interested in fighting were interested in being better. They weren't interested in an absurd concept like "my style is best"....

Do you know Tim Cartmell (sp) or Shen Wu? CMA guy who also is a pretty good BJJ guy now. Think maybe by now he has his black belt? Does a really nice combo of CMA for stand up and BJJ for ground.

Most of the Combat Shuai Jiao people I know have done some BJJ

There's my gym....

The ironly is, none of the above are "raising the rep" because according to the "kung fu guys" were aren't doing CMA :rolleyes:

[Faruq]

I've heard about such underground schools (Bak Mei Pai at least) here in Chicago's Chinatown, but they don't allow the gwai lo to enter, learn or even watch. Though very effective, I don't think their techniques would be allowed in Pride or UFC anyway. Who wants to leave a competition missing an eye or trachea? Broken knee or elbow anyone?


I really think it is Kung-Fu's image rather than the actual art itself. There are many schools that train hard, have hard contact,fight all the time, but for the most part, these are the more "underground" schools. The larger schools that also train this way, I can't speak for. But I'm listening,,,,

[Knifefighter]

I've heard about such underground schools (Bak Mei Pai at least) here in Chicago's Chinatown, but they don't allow the gwai lo to enter, learn or even watch. Though very effective, I don't think their techniques would be allowed in Pride or UFC anyway. Who wants to leave a competition missing an eye or trachea? Broken knee or elbow anyone?
Once again, the old, " techniques that are too deadly to practice, but would somehow disable all the MMA fighters if they are were ever used for real" excuse.

Here's a link to someone who only practiced deadly techniques who had an open challenge and what happened when he fought a MMA guy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8692039060969768186&q=mixed+martial+arts

[Ray Pina]

That original video was not no rules... in every case the action was stopped as soon as someone went down. And guys were going down from initial points of contact.

Nice to see more than point sparring, but my students spar more heavily than that in class every week.... they nor I are ready for the UFC.

Better than most Kung Fu video clips, but still nothing that great. Lot of guys with weight back and uncommitted getting taken out by one committed move and then stopped.

[Knifefighter]

Teh way I see it, and who knows, I could be wrong :p but CMA people who were interested in fighting were interested in being better. They weren't interested in an absurd concept like "my style is best"....
Sorry, not buying that one.

All you have to do is look at this thread and others like it to see all the CMA guys who so adamantly defend the "my style is best" concept.

CMA guys are just as likely as anyone else to buy into this concept. They are just less likely to put those thoughts into actions.

[Knifefighter]

I really think it is Kung-Fu's image rather than the actual art itself.
You can't separate the image, the students and the art itself. They are all interweaved.

MMA and BJJ attract aggressive and competitive individuals, which makes the arts more hard core and strengthens the systems as a whole.

Kung fu systems tend to attract a "softer" crowd, which have made the arts weaker and weaker to the point that even an aggressive, competitive athlete will be hard-pressed to reach his potential with them.


There are many schools that train hard, have hard contact,fight all the time, but for the most part, these are the more "underground" schools.
That may be true.
If so, those are not the schools I am critizing.

[SevenStar]

I've heard about such underground schools (Bak Mei Pai at least) here in Chicago's Chinatown, but they don't allow the gwai lo to enter, learn or even watch. Though very effective, I don't think their techniques would be allowed in Pride or UFC anyway. Who wants to leave a competition missing an eye or trachea? Broken knee or elbow anyone?

since you mentioned missing eyes, eye gouges were NOT illegal in early UFCs, although they were a foul. If your opponent couldn't continue, you still advanced to the next round, but were fined. Only once that I know of was there a successful eye gouge, and that guy still went on the win his match, even though he really couldn't see.

[lkfmdc]

Sorry, not buying that one.

All you have to do is look at this thread and others like it to see all the CMA guys who so adamantly defend the "my style is best" concept.

CMA guys are just as likely as anyone else to buy into this concept. They are just less likely to put those thoughts into actions.

Knife fighter, you missed what I really said....

"CMA people who were interested in fighting were interested in being better"

IE not all CMA people, but rather the REAL fighting ones, those guys, were interested in being better, not the style concept

[Faruq]

Ray, I didn't know you were also a teacher. This is the first time I can remember you mentioning having students. That's great, and your actual combat focus'll be great for your students!


That original video was not no rules... in every case the action was stopped as soon as someone went down. And guys were going down from initial points of contact.

Nice to see more than point sparring, but my students spar more heavily than that in class every week.... they nor I are ready for the UFC.

Better than most Kung Fu video clips, but still nothing that great. Lot of guys with weight back and uncommitted getting taken out by one committed move and then stopped.

[SevenStar]

He's mentioned it before... If I remember right, he has two of them.

[fiercest tiger]

http://z.5t.cn/show/video_2549.html

Some of these are quite good and on the street would have ended it right there and then!

comments?

FT

[TenTigers]

Knifighter sez,"That may be true.
If so, those are not the schools I am critizing."
yeah, I wasn't really posting at anyone in particular, and we seem to basically agree. I;m just venting.

"MMA and BJJ attract aggressive and competitive individuals, which makes the arts more hard core and strengthens the systems as a whole.

"Kung fu systems tend to attract a "softer" crowd, which have made the arts weaker and weaker to the point that even an aggressive, competitive athlete will be hard-pressed to reach his potential with them."

I tend to agree, with one difference,

"Kung fu systems tend to attract a "softer" crowd, which have made the schools themselves, weaker and weaker to the point that even an aggressive, competitive athlete will be hard-pressed to reach his potential within them."

There are schools out there doing it, but definately not enough to make a dent in the pile of horsesh!t that's out there passing for TCMA.