Puch hands vs Chi sao

[stonecrusher69]

Just woundering if any Tai Chi guys like to cross train with Wing Chun Guys practing either push hands or chi sao?Even thought both have a different platform both rely on structure and flowing with your opponent What has been your experiences..Do you feel there are any advantages or dissadvantages?

[Fu-Pow]

Just woundering if any Tai Chi guys like to cross train with Wing Chun Guys practing either push hands or chi sao?Even thought both have a different platform both rely on structure and flowing with your opponent What has been your experiences..Do you feel there are any advantages or dissadvantages?

I think the difference is not so much in what the hands are doing but in the other body requirements that support the hands.

IMO, Wing Chun lacks the qualities of Sung and Peng that are the basis of Taiji body mechanics.

The hands are "soft" but lack the internal "hardness" like in Taiji.

FP

[wingchunguy2]

fu-pow said
"IMO, Wing Chun lacks the qualities of Sung and Peng that are the basis of Taiji body mechanics."

it depends on the wing chun the person does - there are countless of schools and lineages that does things differently, but generally, without sung and peng its not easy to control others in chi sao

chi sao is more aggressive in nature whereas I think push hands is a bit passive,
for example, from what I have seen, the tai chi guys pushing hands tend to yield to a point that their arms are against their body where in chisao, in those position an opponent would have struck them already

there are plenty of advantages for both parties in cross-training

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Guys,

Just a few words in defense of WC: I have played with WC guys generating so much soft power it literally set you flying.

Just a few words in defense of TC: I have played with guys who attacks with their TC techniques so well I would not want to be facing them in a back alley.

Bottom line: what you make of your art depends on you.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

You do alot of work with Victors Wing tsun right? How is victor these days, please give him my regards?

Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Push-hands is not confined to passive subtle and nuanced play.. it is as intense as the experience of the players permits.. I am training with a player of high and refined skill, he will take me far into combat speed and theory, with every bit of Taiji principle intact.. It is a joy to find someone with real skill and application experience.. Chi Sau is a good primer for Taiji combat training, but lacks the more diverse applications one is likely to see in street situations.. Sometimes, we train too focused, unable to meet the demands of a realistic situation. As i observe Taiji, Kung Fu, MMA, etc.. it seems like the differing disciplines are so exclusive (MMA being the least of these) that they ignore the street applications of their arts.. it's one thing to play with people that have a working knowledge of the "unspoken rules" of combat training, another to experiment with all the tools we have..

How often do those of you that train in an active school actually execute "small-joint manipulation" (like finger Chin Na, etc..).. it's interesting that MMA excludes that technique, it is most useful.. or as an opponent shoots your legs, try spiking an elbow into the base of the skull or between the shoulder blades.. these are situational advantages that can change the outcome of a street encounter.. Push-hands is trainable for such situations, but.. it requires very unique partners, partners that are sincere in their quest for skill, willing to experience loss in order to learn.. we must each be willing to feel the energies and vectors of every variety in order to develop Taiji responses.. in the streets there are no "gentlemen's agreements", your tools work or they don't.. and, if you don't train them, don't expect them to work.. It is a difficult training situation to slow down the combat for analysis purposes, people's egos will try to sneak some speed to avoid defeat, but.. in doing so thet have avoided learning the reality of the lessons available.. I do appreciate a good push, it is okay to be pushed and say to your partner, "great job, good push".. it a thing of beauty and should be appreciated, experienced, and learned.. and we won't learn it if we keep cheating the lesson with the ego's need to win.. we won't feel the nuances we need to refine for actual combat effectiveness..

Taiji's Push-hands has been neutered by tournament rules and people with "refined sensibilities".. push-hands training is much more than gentle circles and subtle up-rooting.. that doesn't mean that we don't continuously refine our sensitivities, alignments, energy awarenesses, and power expressions.. we simply need to move those refinements into the arena of applications, real applications.. Standard US Push-hands rules are so empty as to leave the inexperienced observer wondering what real value this has in the martial world (poor marketing).. at the same tournaments, observers can see effective and workable San Shou, continuous sparring, etc.. (good marketing).. Taiji should open up its competition to controlled Chin Na, throws, etc.. but, we should distinguish ourselves from San Shou or Sanda by excluding strikes and kicks.. that way, we wouldn't use pads or protective gear and keep the game at the level of controlled submissions (not grappling).. floor grappling is what happens when good technique hasn't been trained well enough.. This would prompt schools to raise the bar in training for tournaments, to begin to move Taiji in a direction of regaining its potential..

Yikes, i got so worked up i nearly fell off my soap-box.. sorry...

Be well..

[Fu-Pow]

chi sao is more aggressive in nature whereas I think push hands is a bit passive,
for example, from what I have seen, the tai chi guys pushing hands tend to yield to a point that their arms are against their body where in chisao, in those position an opponent would have struck them already

There's really nothing inherently "passive" about push hands.

In push hands you have to first learn to yield but great hardness is concealed in softness. My teacher can stop you in your tracks and still adhere to Taiji principles. That's because he can absorb your force while simultaneously sending it back at you. So you're really fighting yourself.

[stonecrusher69]

All very good posts...I agree alot about what has been said in the following posts in general.Although chi sao and push hands and the underlining training is different, I believe a lot could be learned by wing chun and tai chi people training together.The idea that tai chi is the only art the has the hardness in the softness is not only found in tai chi but in some wing as well.The idea of the iron bar rapped in cotton is also found in some wing chun,so we have a lot in common more the you might think.That is why I think the idea of both styles training together is a good idea.Both could see the common link and defferences in both styles.I myself don't believe in anyone style but look for the truth and there is only one truth.

[fiercest tiger]

Is there push hand comps of TAIJI or internal arts that use small gloves and fight from push hands like chi sau, i mean striking and grappling?

Garry

[Buho_Nival]

....from what I have seen, the tai chi guys pushing hands tend to yield to a point that their arms are against their body where in chisao, in those position an opponent would have struck them already...



I don't want to take your words out of context, that's why I've quoted an exerpt here....when I train push hands, my arms never move back against my body...my body moves to give....I've been taught one should be able to at least place your fist, if not the Hawaiian "bra" gesture, in your arm pit...that is where your arm that is pushing should stay...and not move closer to your body......

also, at the kwoon I attend, the external students study finger breaks in Chin Na......

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


from what I have seen, the tai chi guys pushing hands tend to yield to a point that their arms are against their body where in chisao, in those position an opponent would have struck them already...While i am in general agreement with this notion, i am also aware the "arms against the body" is sometimes an intentional tactic, drawing the opponent into your center.. it is also a bit of a generalization to assume the Taiji player is not capable of controlling from this position.. An opponent will often over-extend themselves as they feel the defense collapsing, if that is the stragety the defender has created an advantage from the appearance of disadvantage.. Aside from that, having played Chi Sau for years, i make no assumptions based on my opponent's appearance.. good Chi Sau players can trash you from impossible positions.. having "appeared" to collapse, they can feed you an elbow faster than you can correct for your over-confidence..

Garry: I am not aware of any "sanctioned" competitions of that nature, but.. frequently, at tournaments, we get together on the side and play a bit more robustly.. There has been some discussions "under the table" about structuring such a venue, but insurance and legallities are a huge issue.. here in Florida the Boxing Commision (fight Nazis) tightly regulate any forms of competitive contact fighting..

I myself don't believe in anyone style but look for the truth and there is only one truth.Well.. just to offer a different perspective.. "truth", is the experience itself, not the words labels and judgements we assign to it.. "truth", as used in the quote, is simply a concept that satisfies the currently known conditions.. truth has a habit of changing as our ability to comprehend expands.. or, as some wise person once said, "change is the universal constant"..

I do agree that there is more wisdom in uniting similar concepts rather than separating them by comparison in a "versus" situation..

Be well..

[qiphlow]

ah, push hands! this is probably my favorite part of taiji training. our school's more advanced students will often incorporate some strikes and joint locking and throws into our push hands sessions. and yes, we go after fingers--and those finger locks can hurt like a motherf*cker! the very little bit of the wing chun sticky hands that i've seen looks similar to push hands, and yes, i'd love to play with one of these folks one day (and, for that matter, anyone who's into this sort of thing).
so here's an invite: if any fans of push hands happen to be in san francisco, let's set up a meet! maybe in the park or something. not a contest, just to play with different folks. sound good?

[fiercest tiger]

How do you guys learn push hands as there are so many types, what do you start with, single to double then moving on to locking and throwing, bouncing type work, striking?

Garry

[qiphlow]

we start with just single hand and double hand patterns, circling only, in order to get a feel for sticking and following (fixed step). we then progress to moving step patterns, to get the feel of sticking and following while moving around. we've also got some bouncing exercises, and some joint lock practice (just taking different locks and drilling them with a partner, so we know what both giving and receiving the lock feels like). also we have a "push hands club" that meets on saturdays for some freestyle practice. my personal feeling is that you just have to do a lot of push hands with alot of different people. i'm also getting to the point where i'm relying less on "if my partner does A then i respond with B"--i'm working more on feeling what my partner wants to do and let my techniques present themselves.

[MartialDev]

All very good posts...I agree alot about what has been said in the following posts in general.Although chi sao and push hands and the underlining training is different, I believe a lot could be learned by wing chun and tai chi people training together.The idea that tai chi is the only art the has the hardness in the softness is not only found in tai chi but in some wing as well.The idea of the iron bar rapped in cotton is also found in some wing chun,so we have a lot in common more the you might think.That is why I think the idea of both styles training together is a good idea.Both could see the common link and defferences in both styles.I myself don't believe in anyone style but look for the truth and there is only one truth.

I agree completely, and I sponsor an open practice session in Seattle for this purpose:
http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/seattle-martial-arts/

[stonecrusher69]

Sounds great, I wish I lived in Seatlle.Good luck with it..