Loong Ying and Pak Mei

[Yum Cha]

The two sister styles. What exactly is the difference between the two?

Some people say they are the same, just interpreted differently by two Masters, one a beer keg of a man, the other tall and skinny.

Some people say they have only minor similarities, but are quite different in principle.

It is well documented that both grand masters were good friends and relations. Both learned from some of the same teachers. Both shared a Kwoon at one point sharing the teaching of the students.

My take on it:
Loong Ying uses more waist rotation than Pak Mei. There are some subtle differences in stepping and footwork too. LY stance seems to be a bit wider and the weight a bit more forward. They do that zig zag stepping too. Not sure about the breathing.

I'm no Loong Ying expert, but our Si Gung was taught Ying Jau Lin Que from the hand of Lam Yeu Gwai, when he and CLC shared the Kwoon together. I believe that our Guangzhou branch of Pak Mei has more dragon flavour than HK Pak Mei.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Yum Cha,

I agree about the waist but depending on the form and hand movements will dictate the waist. The Bak Mei uses Yuil Ma also but maybe is shorter circles but depending on the persons level some use longer and wound up compared to a senior that is small circles and more explosive. Like long and short energy!!

FT:)

[fiercest tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aO8WGF8kY

Here is a demo of me, yes ive learnt how to YOUTUBE, hahahaha please be gentle with the comments!!!! :eek:

[mantiskilla]

I would agree about the waist movement being a major difference. I dont know about Bak Mei, but Lung Ying is ALL circles. Lung Ying has circles through the whole body from the ground all the way to the end of the punching hand/kicking foot. The circles can be very small, however, and may not really be obvious. Also, Lung Ying appears to a little more angular in its forms and not quite as much sraight ahead, but thats only from what little Bak Mei i have seen.

Garry,
****! you move pretty good for an old man!


I enjoyed this video posted in another thread. He is connected through his whole body.

http://www.6rooms.com/watch/105606.html



Bill
________
LovelyWendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[fiercest tiger]

Mantiskilla

I agree LY use more angles usually in there forms to get to the outside or inside when Bak Mei can use that but also uses the circles to divert the force without much of the footwork. This is what i see in the forms but again there are certian forms that use angles in bak mei also!!

Garry

[Ao Qin]

I agree with all the commentary above.

LY is about circles & coordinated body movement - not just hands & shoulders but originating from the hips, feet...

BM has a diffent approach. More linnear in its approach to combat.

La - AQ

[Yum Cha]

I think there is a psychological difference in LY and BM as well, a different "Personality" or a different "Attitude." It may seem superficial but I think it is more significant than a lot of people think.

I get the feeling LY is bigger and more powerful as in big body movements, but of course, BM has that too.... PM is a bit more twitchy, but of course, LY has some of that too...

[mantiskilla]

Yum Cha-

That is interesting...can you explain further? I agree with you about the psychological differences, but i am just not sure what they are. i think, at a certain point, as the moves and energy becomes more refined, it becomes more about the mind than the body. for example, the 'thought' of a particular movement to create energy becomes enough to create the energy and the movement is either not needed, or becomes so subtle as to be unnoticeable. anyway, this is off the topic at hand, but it somewhat explains my interest into the 'mind' side of training. any insights into the psychological similarities/differences would be interesting.

bill
________
Monza (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_Monza)

[Yum Cha]

Hey Bill,
I understand what you are talking about. Its almost like a mindlessness, where your body moves the instant you anticipate. Almost like "sensitivity" training, where you're not sure if it is touch or thought that triggers your movement. No active thought, just a sense of being and time and movement.

Naaa, not what I mean. :D

Dragon style, when we train our Ying Jau Lin Que which was (and I am repeating myself, I apologise) taught to Si Gung from Lam Yeu Gwai, we use a different "energy". Dragon power, a full body, comprehensive, overwhelming committment. Not an anger, but a possession of fearsome power. More like a God than a mortal.

Pak Mei forms have more of a rage, a destructive, merciless committment. I find the Dragon energy more aloof whereas I find the Pak Mei energy more demonic, closer to evil. There is no mercy.

Maybe the difference between Tiger and Dragon energy if you play 5 animals lore?

Of course, I could simply be my own neurotic skirts showing....I'd be really keen to hear from some other Loong Ying Players

[Fat Cat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aO8WGF8kY

Here is a demo of me, yes ive learnt how to YOUTUBE, hahahaha please be gentle with the comments!!!! :eek:

Very impressive; I liked this clip very much. Aloha!

[fiercest tiger]

Fat Cat,

Thankyou Sir, if i think i know who you are i hope you and the family is well?

LJLK form is more like dragon due to its pressing continously as the form mentions, the other bak mei forms are different philosphy of attacking as in each form has its unique way of attacking and defending this is what one has to learn when doing the forms not the fact that is another form with the same moves in different combo's same energies etc.

Physcologically i think it depends on the person, does he have a heart and not want to kill or main the person for life or just beat him down where he doesnt get up to reattack. Kinda like knowing the law and the limits you have to hurt someone.

Garry

[kung fu fighter]

Hey guys,

What are the names of these Lung Ying forms?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5pfm5yEmw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEL_GpG15dg

[Sui]

yum cha the difference is that LY does NOT exsist. what pple learn who are doing LY is certain movements from PM then a lot of mess added.lol
i would of thought you would of figuered it out but thinking you know pm hei gung anything is possible.lol

F.T i definatly could take you lol no problem.post a sip batt mor up,chicken.lol i may change my mind.hahahaaha

to all CTS students,hahahahahaha
CTS knew PM hahahahahaahah fnuck me side ways.he knew how to get your money thats his kung fu.hahahahaha he suffered greatly for that price poor poor man,a CLC wanna be and was never given pai.

and you lot who have grand masters masters masters etc in china hahahahaaha one word communism.hahahahah

no money no talk.lol

[mantis108]

Hey guys,

What are the names of these Lung Ying forms?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5pfm5yEmw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEL_GpG15dg

The first one is Sam Tung Gor Kiew. This person plays a lot of different system stuff. He is IMHO a classic case of shouldn't be doing more than one system of Kung Fu. The form itself is a novice level Lung Ying. This form trains the principles of Sam Tung Sau, connecting and passing the bridges of the opponent.

The second link is Lung Ying Mor Kiew, which in the old days is only taught to disciples after the second Bai Si cemerony. That means one would have a solid background in all the fundamentals of Lung Ying. This form trains various Mor Kiew Sau Fa (ie chasing and retreating mor kiew).

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Mantis 108,

Hi Bro, i noticed his head moves alot is that normal in LY?

FT

[mantis108]

Who do you mean? The first guy? If so, well ... When a guy's head bobbing back and forth like that it's a tell tale sign of how much sparring experience that he has. Also that's a sign that he is seriously lacking in understanding the principles of Hakka styles in general.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Mantis 108,

Yeah, thats what i thought!

Thanks mate :)
FT

[bocmei]

Hi I am new new to this forum. I have posted numerous times in other forums and might have posted comments to Yum Cha before. I am not to familiar with other Hakka styles but from my perspective on the mans head movement (performing Sam Tong) clearly his eyes were following his fists causing his head movement to bounce down and back up again.

Other than that I feel that his performance had good flow and his head movement was just style.


Bocmei

No promises but I will try and post Mai Yu Qiang Luos form of him performing a combination Bak Mei / Lung Ying hybrid form that he developed himself. Just need time to upload to YouTube.

[Juan Nowon]

Hey Bill,
I understand what you are talking about. Its almost like a mindlessness, where your body moves the instant you anticipate. Almost like "sensitivity" training, where you're not sure if it is touch or thought that triggers your movement. No active thought, just a sense of being and time and movement.

Naaa, not what I mean. :D

Dragon style, when we train our Ying Jau Lin Que which was (and I am repeating myself, I apologise) taught to Si Gung from Lam Yeu Gwai, we use a different "energy". Dragon power, a full body, comprehensive, overwhelming committment. Not an anger, but a possession of fearsome power. More like a God than a mortal.

Pak Mei forms have more of a rage, a destructive, merciless committment. I find the Dragon energy more aloof whereas I find the Pak Mei energy more demonic, closer to evil. There is no mercy.

Maybe the difference between Tiger and Dragon energy if you play 5 animals lore?

Of course, I could simply be my own neurotic skirts showing....I'd be really keen to hear from some other Loong Ying Players

Yum Cha-

Like you, Im no expert in Lung Ying, Ive only practced (LY) for about three years so my knowledge of the "energy" were talking about here is rather limted. I myself have not been able to achieve the "godlike" dragon energy. When playing the dragon the whole body knock down power is what we like to use... although it isnt easy getting use to this power, it is quite effective. It feels like nothing and it looks like nothing but it is definitly SOMETHING.

From the small amout of Pak Mei Ive seen, most of the practitioners (except for a few) are very fierce, like they are out for blood (I hope they know when/how to turn it off). I know both BM and LY are "fighting arts", however sometimes there is "to much" energy displaced, just my novice opinion.

[mantiskilla]

Juan---


Who is your teacher? Just curious as there are not too many of us (Lung Ying) out there.

Bill
________
HALFBAKED (http://half-baked.com)

[Juan Nowon]

Juan---


Who is your teacher? Just curious as there are not too many of us (Lung Ying) out there.

Bill

Mantis Killa

I left a PM in response to the above question.

Your right, there are not to many practicing Lung Ying.

[nyhakka]

I too train in LY, and there aren't many of us out there because they "old guys" choose to try and stay out of the public. And not due to us having the secret style as most claim, but because of a desire to stay away from the politics of the kung fu world. We got enough politics in our own family...;)

That "Godlike" power spoken of in LY is the most important element to the style, as it give us the ability to persue our opponent relentlessly, expounding a minimal amount of energy. It is the "internal" component of the style, and the use of full body cooperation(breathing, motion, coordination, mind) is half the point. This energy generation is the other half and they should be interdependent on each other. The idea is to draw energy from heaven and earth, sink the energy into the Dan Tien, then express the energy through will. In essence, a Dragon is an imaginary beast, being a tiger and a snake with wings, and therefore all the principles of air, water, fire,ether, and earth are all characteristics of the the style. The lower body is yang while the upper body is Yin, and both must harmonize to express the Tao of Lung Ying.
Hope this helps a bit!!

[Juan Nowon]

I too train in LY, and there aren't many of us out there because they "old guys" choose to try and stay out of the public. And not due to us having the secret style as most claim, but because of a desire to stay away from the politics of the kung fu world. We got enough politics in our own family...;)

That "Godlike" power spoken of in LY is the most important element to the style, as it give us the ability to persue our opponent relentlessly, expounding a minimal amount of energy. It is the "internal" component of the style, and the use of full body cooperation(breathing, motion, coordination, mind) is half the point. This energy generation is the other half and they should be interdependent on each other. The idea is to draw energy from heaven and earth, sink the energy into the Dan Tien, then express the energy through will. In essence, a Dragon is an imaginary beast, being a tiger and a snake with wings, and therefore all the principles of air, water, fire,ether, and earth are all characteristics of the the style. The lower body is yang while the upper body is Yin, and both must harmonize to express the Tao of Lung Ying.
Hope this helps a bit!!



Greetings nyhakka-

Thank you for the above post, I hope you (and others familiar with LY) can elaborate more on expressing the energy ("energy" can have many meanings) through the will in laymans terms. For the reason that I havn't studied LY for a very long duration of time, a lot of these concepts from above seem obscure to me. Our teacher actually seems to steer us away from the Taoist philosophy that so many are fond of, we seem to have a more nuts and bolts type of approach .

I have read, on various LY webpages, about concepts similar to what you have posted here, I guess I should ponder the meaning(s) in more depth... My Western Mind seems to inhibit deep thought (lol). Or I havn't put enough time into my practice to develop a philosophy of Dragon style. Oh well, Id better go do some work.

Thanks again.

[nyhakka]

There could be many reasons your sifu steers you away from the Taoist thought in the style. But I believe IMO that this will hinder your development in the latter parts of the style, as the most important component to the style is the power generation which is developed from an "Internal" perspective rather than an "External" one. Also, when it comes to the fighting in the style, being that it's a close quarter style the internal expression is very important.

But don't worry. As i said the internal component is built into the style, and you may actually be learning it and not know it as yet. It's true some sifus don't know the internal expression of the style(as in many other styles) but as long as your sifu is teaching you to uutilize all the tools of the style then stick with it! PM me and we can chat more in detail about it. Who's your sifu?

[Southern Fist]

Juan

Nuts and Bolts are good since they are the foundation and basics of the style.
Be patient and train the style more then understand it at first.

As my Hing-dai nyHakka mention if your sifu is teaching you the basics then you are on the right track.

[nyhakka]

Well said!

[The Xia]

Dragon style, when we train our Ying Jau Lin Que which was (and I am repeating myself, I apologise) taught to Si Gung from Lam Yeu Gwai, we use a different "energy". Dragon power, a full body, comprehensive, overwhelming committment. Not an anger, but a possession of fearsome power. More like a God than a mortal.

Pak Mei forms have more of a rage, a destructive, merciless committment. I find the Dragon energy more aloof whereas I find the Pak Mei energy more demonic, closer to evil. There is no mercy.

Maybe the difference between Tiger and Dragon energy if you play 5 animals lore?

Of course, I could simply be my own neurotic skirts showing....I'd be really keen to hear from some other Loong Ying Players
ttt for more discussion on this.

[bredmond812]

FWIW,

As i recall, when i studied BM and LY, my sifu said that lung ying was more about power, and Bak mei was more about quick combonations. But i dont want to misrepresent my old sifu, so dont quote me.

Also, to Yum Cha's analogy between the whole Tiger/Dragon of 5 animals fame, I think that Pak Mei is said to have elements of Tiger in it, and LY is, well, Dragon.

B Red

[Southern Fist]

I train both styles and at first I also felt that they were different in energy and tecnique execution.

But, know I feel they are the same as shown to me by my Sifu.

Lung Ying and Pak Mei have many similar techniques when fighting quick and flowing. But, while demonstrating the sets. Both styles have a different flow and energy output.

Pak Mei has the five animals concept or element. The Tiger is seen and done more in techniques secondary to its ferocity and aggresiveness.

As stated Pak Mei is "Demonic", "Merciless", "Destructive"

IMO All martial arts when fighting are demonic, merciless,and destructive even Tai Ji.

Lung Ying also has the Tiger element making it aggresive.

But, it is the practitioner rather then the technique which makes it ferocious.

Lung Ying is "Demonic", "Merciless", "Destructive" just as much as Pak Mei.

For example You have techniques like Soi Kiu "Breaking Bridge"
which the bridge is your opponents forearm, leg, humerus,even side of the neck.

Bui Gim "Back Sword" where the practitioner blocks the opponents arm or leg down while simultaneously striking full force to the opponents jugular vein in the neck or hip pelvis area.

Dragon concept or element is flexible, smooth adaptible to any situation in a fight or technique.

Both Styles are equal in effectiveness and ferocity. It is the practitioners spirit which will make it Demonic or gentle.


Peter Pena

[4 Dragons]

Any Dragon people teaching in the Seattle area?