Forms/Fighting thread

[TenTigers]

I am moving this thread here, so we can separate it from the CTS Holy War, for ease of following both threads.
Let me say this. It is obvious that for the most part, nobody here really has a clue about how TCMA is actually trained.
I have stated this before, on many forums. If we look at how TCMA was developed and taught over time, it is a no brainer.
Let's turn the clock back-"into the Wayback Machine, Sherman"
Ancient China-Warring Kingdoms, battlefields, etc.
You are training your army-which do you teach first-drills, drills, drills, fighting application,etc, ....or forms? duh.
Ok,fast forward. Overthrow the Ching, Mongols, whatever. You are training Guerilla fighters to fight soldiers. -which do you teach first-drills, drills, drills, fighting applications, etc....or forms? duh, again
Fast forward again, Schools fighting schools. Blood in the streets. Which do you teach first-Drills, Drills, Drills,fighting applications, etc....or forms?
beginning to see a pattern yet?
Ok, fast forward one last time-Schools demonstrating in the square, vying for students. What will you demonstrate? Drills, Drills, Drills, etc or those really cool forms, two-man sets, weapon sets? Which will make the crowd yawn, and which will make them ooooh and ahhh?
Yep. Times have changed.
Since that time, teachers taught forms first, applicationsn second-maybe,drills, drills, drills? c'mon. "I'd rather go down the block to Sifu Chang-he teaches the fFying Monkey form!"
Unfortunately, this is the way the past several generations have taught, and this is how the teachings were passed down. Now, people actually believe this is the way it is supposed to be taught.
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
Forms catalogue your system. They enable the techniques, whether they be fighting,chi-gung, strength trainig, etc to be passed down from one generation to the other intact. Sure, practice will develop stamina,skills, balance, etc. But it is far better to drill,drill, drill, and train fighting.
In all actuality-unless you want to pass down the system, forms are unneccesary in developing the skills for fighting. Period.
KNIFE FIGHTER is actually correct.
The fact is, TCMA is effective, as is any fighting art-of course, it all depends on the fighter. The reason people like Knifefighter is so adamant about his views-and he has every right to be,is that other than a few, the majority of TCMA schools teach this way.
Like I said. There are exceptions to the rules. Some of us are Dinosaurs. We stick to the old ways-which means we drill, drill, drill, etc and save forms for after.
Oh, and adding BJJ, or Kodokan Judo (my personal fave) into your training is not watering down your art. Remember, the Shaolin Temple was a melting pot. Generation after generation, if a teacher was beaten,and lived,he would usually add the techniques that defeated him as well as methods to counter them into his mix. I, being from Hung-Ga, realise that Wong Fei-Hung combined many methods as well to develop his art. We are no different. Martial Arts should be a living, breathing work in process. You will always need to evolve. Anything less is doing your students, you Sifu, your art, and legacy a disservice.

[David Jamieson]

Nobody here has a clue? ok then, you've made your point. lol

Knifefighter is right? Uh, he's a troll seeking to cause disturbance here and nothing more. he offers nothing.

Who here has only forms in their curriculum? Certainly not how I learned.

Who says tcma doesn't ahve drills. That's what is extrapolated from forms that you seem to agree are a catalogue of whichever system you practice. to some extent I agree. They are physical expressions of physical ideas. Extrapolate from them, find what's effective and use it.

The only one saying they are the sole method of learning to fight is Knifefighter. In fact, he's throwing a lot of empty presumptions out based on his extremely limited information of what traditional CHinese Martial Arts are.

he is entitled to is opinion albeit skewed and myopic in scope.

Let's not forget the variants of CMA either.

Military, Medical, Buddhist, taoist and so on and so forth.

Let's also not forget that the be all and end all of Kungfu is not justthe fighting aspect of it although you can certainly coax that out of it and do just that, in which case, how would taht be different from any type of fight training barring the ranges and what not.

let's also not forget that mma sprang from somewhere and many mma-ists have traditional backgrounds and draw upon the resources in them as well as other sources.

finally, I am not sure why it is some sort of crusade to convince kungfu practitioners that what they are doing is wrong? What is the purpose of that?

why is it "better" to just train fighting? Ok if that's all you want, but in context to the big picture, why would that be the only way?

and for the older fellas going on about fighting being the be all and end all, what's your professional record and where's your name on the list of greats?

If you're gonna do mma, that's cool go do that. If you prefer the Kungfu, then do that.

I really am not getting why people feel a need to preach at people who are enjoying what they are doing and telling them they should do something else instead. Seems a bit pointless.

[Chief Fox]

My old school was a forms school. It took me 3 years to realize it. Since I quit that school over a year ago I've struggled to find what I've been looking for in martial arts. While the school did give me more strength, flexiblity and stamina, I still feel cheated in some way.

I do realize that some people just love forms and that's all they want to do. Since I left the school, two people have been promoted to black belt (what ever that means). I believe that these "black belts" now have a false sense of security. One of them will mess with the wrong person and get hurt or worse.

I remember my old sifu telling me that I've only got a few more forms to learn and then I can learn the Kwon Dao form. I remember thinking to myself, "why the he11 do I want to learn a kwon dao form when I don't even fully understand the material that I've already learned!?"

It comes down to this. Some people are fine with just learning forms and having their false sense of security. While other people question. How is this really going to help me? Then some people are in between. They like forms and all the mystical stuff, they like applications, they want to know how this stuff works but they really don't want to test themselves.

Which one is right? It depends on what people are looking for. It's true that many people are in the dark. Of the people who are in the dark, many stay there willingly.

I've been looking for what fits me best. I'm sure that one day I will find it. It still gets me down that I feel that I wasted 3 years of my life while I could have been doing something more meaningful. It's a part of the journey. I had to go through that to get where I am now. I have to respect that and accept it for what it is and move on.

[Ray Pina]

It doesn't matter who your teacher is/was... your style doesn't matter.... how you train doesn't matter.

WHAT MATTERS IS HOW EFFECTIVE YOU ARE IN TAKING OUT YOUR OPPONANT WITH AS LITTLE HARM TO YOURSELF.

If you find yourself not effective. If you find yourself talking, but lacking the tools that give you the courage to put yourself in a position to do what it is that you claim your training allows you to do...... you make want to rethink who your training with, what you're training and how.

These debates are pointless, and usually fueld by those who don't know. It is a way of intellectualizing and debating something that at its core in instinctual. There are many things to see in martial arts but if you want to learn them you have to do them..... the learning is in the doing.

Everyone knows about flanking and cover, etc., etc. Go play paintball (as I just did with the Gracies over the weekend) and get your ass shot and LEARN these concepts in a concrete way.

Put gloves on and go bash someone into submission and see why. Go get bashed and see why.

[Knifefighter]

Who here has only forms in their curriculum? Certainly not how I learned.
See post by CF above.


Who says tcma doesn't ahve drills. That's what is extrapolated from forms that you seem to agree are a catalogue of whichever system you practice.
Extrapolating from forms is much different that using drills that come directly from application and is much less effective.


The only one saying they are the sole method of learning to fight is Knifefighter.
Actually, I'm not saying that at all. Some places teach almost all forms, some teach forms mixed with other things, and there are probably places that teach no forms. My position is that any time spent doing forms could be much better spent doing more efficient things.




Let's also not forget that the be all and end all of Kungfu is not justthe fighting aspect of it
And there's nothing wrong with that as long as one realizes that the more you diffuse your "goals" the less effective you will be in any one of them.


let's also not forget that mma sprang from somewhere and many mma-ists have traditional backgrounds and draw upon the resources in them as well as other sources.
The modern MMA model allows for practitioners to continue to utilize any effective resources they have found in TMA.



finally, I am not sure why it is some sort of crusade to convince kungfu practitioners that what they are doing is wrong? What is the purpose of that?
Debate.


why is it "better" to just train fighting? Ok if that's all you want, but in context to the big picture, why would that be the only way?
It's only "better" if your goal is fighting.


and for the older fellas going on about fighting being the be all and end all, what's your professional record and where's your name on the list of greats?
It's not about being great. It's about finding the most effective way to reach your goals and potential.

[gabe]

Why haven't boxers done away with shadowboxing? Do you think professional boxers don't know how to jab? Why do they practise it extensively in their shadowboxing?

Western boxing is full of forms. There is no opponent. No resistance. No target. Just air. Yet they all do it and continue to do it at the most advanced levels. Yes, they are short. And yes, they freestyle. Kung fu is no different. Long forms are for cataloging. Sectioning them is for training. And freestyling is the objective. Why do it? Muscle memory and mechanics. Conditioning. Strength. Rhythm.

[Knifefighter]

Why haven't boxers done away with shadowboxing? Do you think professional boxers don't know how to jab? Why do they practise it extensively in their shadowboxing?

Western boxing is full of forms. There is no opponent. No resistance. No target. Just air. Yet they all do it and continue to do it at the most advanced levels. Yes, they are short. And yes, they freestyle. Kung fu is no different. Long forms are for cataloging. Sectioning them is for training. And freestyling is the objective. Why do it? Muscle memory and mechanics. Conditioning. Strength. Rhythm.

- Shadow boxing is random. This randomness occurs shortly after beginning to train.
Forms are usually set. Any "freestyling" occurs quite a long time into training.

- Shadow boxing is more about faking and feinting and not completely following through with punches.
Forms are about trying to hit into the air with intent.

- Shadow boxing is used more for warm-up and cool-down than an actual workout.
Forms often make up a main portion of a kung fu workout.

- The moves done in shadow boxing look almost exactly like those done when fighting.
There is often no or very little resemblance between forms and actual fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As has been stated.. "times are changing".. The issue is that there are two groups of thought, one wants to preserve the hardcore blood and guts fighting.. the otherwants to expand that experience to include more cultural concepts..

The "old fellas", the Chinese, lived in the culture that supported their art, here, in the US, we don't.. it might be appropriate, if we really want to understand the art, to also understand the culture..

The great armies no longer clash on the battlefield with hand-to-hand combat being a necessity or even a likelihood.. we have the time and opportunity to refine the arts, to build a character and social benefit.. you betcha, there were some unsavory characters "back in the day", ruffians and thugs.. great fighters, but.. as willing to start a fight as to practice a defensive stragety..

Here's the rub, and it's a big one.. we can preserve the "old ways", but we will also preserve a mean-spirited aggression.. it is the nature of seasoned, combat hardened martial artists, to test their skills.. whether by agreed upon contests/competitions or in the streets, the contest has a winner and a loser.. and human nature desires to be the winner.. from that desire it is observable that people will resort to means beyond what the situation demands to insure their desires are met..

To move beyond the inherent violence associated with TCMA requires a different way of thinking, where winning is not determined by defeating, and possibly maiming, the other player(s).. Forms, can afford a level of training that negates some of the potential for injury and egotistical friction.. MA will never be without direct physical competition, but.. it makes sense to diminish it somewhat, to build a model that moves us in a direction of less violent resolutions to disagreements.. There are those whose spirits demand that they test themselves and others to validate their self-expectations, so be it.. but, it is contrary to the premise of "self-defense", to use unregulated violence as a test of the Arts..

I hope that ultimately civilization will evolve beyond the need to express its frustrations through violence, to move beyond combat as a resolution to personal or cultural differences.. where, someday, forms would be judged as Art and not critiqued as ineffective for destroying an opponent.. BUT, until that day, there is wisdom in developing specific skills for self-defense, hard skills, tested skills.. We should be just a little more understanding of the Art of Martial Arts, give it a chance to be an option for future generations.. a chance to let violence slip into the shadows of antiquity, a chance for great strength, great skill, and great art to evolve in a society that rejects violence as an option.. without that option, we are doomed to project violence into the future, a recurring cycle of humanity's quest to destroy itself..

Be well..

[yenhoi]

What a trick. The thread title sounds kung fu, but then we get in here and tentigers turns out to be a non kung fu guy.

Why would you post non kung fu on a kung fu forum?

:confused:

[yenhoi]

Remeber what the final purpose is-
To extended life and maintain youth.

:eek:

[gabe]

- Shadow boxing is random. This randomness occurs shortly after beginning to train.
Forms are usually set. Any "freestyling" occurs quite a long time into training.

- Shadow boxing is more about faking and feinting and not completely following through with punches.
Forms are about trying to hit into the air with intent.

- Shadow boxing is used more for warm-up and cool-down than an actual workout.
Forms often make up a main portion of a kung fu workout.

- The moves done in shadow boxing look almost exactly like those done when fighting.
There is often no or very little resemblance between forms and actual fighting.


Sorry, but where I come from, the shadowboxing was to work mechanics of the individual punches and the combinations. We certainly did them with intent and the coach watched our mechanics very carefully. We skipped rope and hit the speedbag to warmup. We practised specific combinations, not random ones, before transferring to the mitts. Later, they became shuffled sequences of our combinations. That's the way kung fu is supposed to go, no matter which style, contrived then random.

I didn't think much of choy lee fut when I first saw it, but meeting up with a few of them, I appreciated their combinations from a western boxing perspective. Yes, their combinations came right out of their forms. You made some WC friends, go ask them if they are able to use any of their techniques from their forms. Maybe ask Alan Orr if he's used any WC in actual fighting.

And as far as forms being the bulk of a kung fu workout, well, you are welcome to your generalizations.

[MasterKiller]

Once you know the forms, they can become just another part of your workout routine.

But it takes an immense amount of time to learn them well enough to get to that point, especially if you have 10 or more.

[TenTigers]

yehhoi-what gives youthe impression that I am not a "kung-Fu Guy"? Just because I expressed interest in Kodokan Judo? I have been teaching Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga) for over twenty years. I also train in Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai. Martial Arts is my passion, soit is also my hobby. Iam also planning on learning Kendo-when I find an extra day in the week...why? 'cause it looks like fun. I still like to fence as well.
I'm a guitarist. But I am learning drums.Does that mean I am no longer a guitarist?

[TenTigers]

I think shadowboxing would still be considered a drill, rather than a form.

[gabe]

I think shadowboxing would still be considered a drill, rather than a form.

Define a drill and define a form.

A form drills movement and muscle memory.

[lkfmdc]

I would de-construct the practice of forms in two ways

1) Context...

Perhaps in circumstances where there is one teacher and few students, like "old china", it was a way to get students to practice something over and over again. Also, with few potential partners and no equipment, what else can you really do?

2) as an outdated methodology of training

Clearly to some extent forms were meant as a form of movement training and body awareness.... but again, times change, and other, better methods arrive

[SevenStar]

Sorry, but where I come from, the shadowboxing was to work mechanics of the individual punches and the combinations. We certainly did them with intent and the coach watched our mechanics very carefully. We skipped rope and hit the speedbag to warmup. We practised specific combinations, not random ones, before transferring to the mitts.

what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous.


And as far as forms being the bulk of a kung fu workout, well, you are welcome to your generalizations.

several people here have acknowledged truth to this. It's been my experience also.

warmup
forms work
applications
bow out

but out of the 1.5 hour class we spent about 15 mins on warm up and 15 mins on application drilling. an hour on average was for forms. sparring was only done once a week during class. sometimes, some of us would spar on our own after class was over. Every TMA school (not just kung fu) that I trained at followed a similar format.

[TenTigers]

so, sevenstar, are you still at those schools, or did you wake upand move on?

AHHHHHHHHHSH!!!!!TTT!

aw.man. I just fell off my soapbox. ouch.

ok, i'm ok. uhh..ok, I'm back on.(whew!) I coulda hurt myself up there

[Ray Pina]

Personally, I think unarmed martial arts are better than they've ever been. I'm guessing in the past, much like today, if you found yourself on the battle field without a weapon you were ****ed. And then, like today, if I really had it in my heart to do away with someone for whatever reason, I would most likely ambush them with a weapon.

So how much time did real warriors devote to unarmed combat when swords, speers and even staffs or poles were available for defense... and offense? Even Cain used a rock on Able.

Today, ina relative peaceful society, we are now able to study and train unarmed combat for the sake of unarmed combat alone. And we now have venues where kicking, punching, locking, throwing and submission grappling can be employed at the same time. Add to this seven figure pay off for the top dogs.... the will, motivation, access to the best methods are there in ways never before available.

This is not saying anything about one style or another.

[mantis108]

Forms, Routine, Taolu, Quan(fist), Jia(frame) and whatever label used to be a very serious matter. In some styles, it has developed highly to the point that it becomes a coherent set of anatomical precepts which are designed to transform sick or weak consititutions to health and fitness (martial) to handle laborious tasks (ie fighting). The meek becomes courageous with definite martial skills. The power base is the mental faculty channelling through the corporal nucleus (physical center of gravity of a human body) known as Dantian and then extented out to build a delivery system whatever that may be.

Then came along human being's number one friend and foe - imagination. Imagination as used by the Mckwoon/McDojo and Modern Wushu crowd totally gave legit Kung Fu forms a bad reputation. They fabricated many many useless forms, which I call pulp fictions or carpola, for commercial purposes.

When a delivery system is developed based not on truth but imagination, Huston, we have a problem.

The problem really is the lack of proper education especially in the Chinese worldview IMHO. :( It's really are the fault of the so called masters and worst self proclaimed Grandmasters. :eek:

Mantis108

[gabe]

"what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous."


Forms is exactly that- drilling techniques and movement in the air. Same with kung fu. You go from contrived to spontaneous. All styles are supposed to work this way.

I practised jabbing all over the ring. That became combinations. Then the freestyling. This was all shadowboxing according to my coach. And once we became proficient, we did not stop doing them in the air. We continued to drill them in the air in what is called shadowboxing, just as the pro's do. Neither you nor tentigers have distinguished what you both call drills and shadowboxing, other than you stating that shadowboxing is spontaneous. You just never did your kung fu forms in that manner.

For me, whether boxing or kung fu, we always looked for three techniques and "drilled" them. The whole form was just a catalogue, while we concentrated on the pieces, found ones that worked for us and favored these in actual sparring. All arts work like this. Was it masterkiller who said it took a long time to master all the forms- well, as I understand it, you don't go for all the techniques- you pick them and make them your own. All the traditional masters specialized this way, whether cma or boxing or any martial art.

As far as schools that do nothing but form, hey no argument there. There isn't a single post on these forums I think that states that one can fight by doing just forms. And nobody denies the existence of crap schools. Yet you guys keep bringing it up as if it's every cma'ist's routine. Why not, it's the easy way for you to argue. Anybody can argue against a strawman.

[MasterKiller]

Add to this seven figure pay off for the top dogs.... the will, motivation, access to the best methods are there in ways never before available.

I think Matt Hughes makes something like $100,000....not quite seven figures. ;)

[SevenStar]

so, sevenstar, are you still at those schools, or did you wake upand move on?

AHHHHHHHHHSH!!!!!TTT!

aw.man. I just fell off my soapbox. ouch.

ok, i'm ok. uhh..ok, I'm back on.(whew!) I coulda hurt myself up there

No - I've since gone back to muay thai and grappling.

[Ray Pina]

I think Matt Hughes makes something like $100,000....not quite seven figures. ;)

I'm quite sure Chuck Lidell is a millionaire... Randy C too. Hughes, if he's not, will be there soon if he's smart.

[Pork Chop]

Been watching all these dead horses get pretty well thrashed lately, so let me offer up the age-old standards to these arguments...

forms become the focus of training for principle based arts as opposed to technique based arts.

the idea is that by practising full forms, you'll magically pick up the principle first, and then achieve spontaneous execution of whatever random technique fits the principle. To have this kind of spontaneous reaction takes years and years of practise.

on the other hand technique based arts have you drill certain techniques into the ground and over time figure out how to apply them. Boxing tends to be the most used example of a technique-based art.

Personally, i feel that the idea of a principle-based martial art is a myth. I think ultimately every art comes down to techniques that you need to hone and knowing when & how to use them.

I would be really curious to see kung fu applied to the Muay thai model of- practise these 6 or 7 techniques first, learn to fight with them, and then add in the fancy moves as you figure out when and how to use them. Of course this has pretty much already been done with san shou.

Once you've learned the basics & proper structure of Taiji, you should probably spend a large portion of your practise time on push hands & honing your favorite techniques, with a more moderate portion of time on forms & such.

Once you've learned the basics & proper structure of a bridging art like Hung Gar or Preying Mantis, you should probably spend a large portion of your practise freestyling bridging engagments & honing your favorite techniques, with a more moderate portion of your time on forms.

Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut spends very little time on forms- opting more for drilling on pads & sparring. I think you anti-TCMA folks would be suprised at how their practise time is spent. And yeah, from my experience, they use whipping punches and not straight boxing.

The reason I think Buk Sing succeeds where a lot of others fail is because they've stood up and said "okay, here are our bread and butter techniques, the rest of the stuff we got try to add in over time", which seems to be something most kung fu styles are reluctant to do - because it "limits" their style.

On the other thread someone was talking trash about a backfist- and "how come we never see it in boxing?". The thing is, we do, OFTEN- but it's kind of "cheating". Ali threw most of his jabs as backfists. A lot of boxers follow up a jab with a quick backfist arm punch before throwing the cross.

Of course these aren't the backfist powershots that were dismissed in that thread as well. I've seen those type of power backfists used in Kuoshu leitai- i think by Dave Wiltshire. I've felt them bouncing off my nose before and I can say that they're hard to track & defend against- kinda like a looping overhand that doesn't follow the trajectory you expect.

TCMA has a ton of good stuff in it. it's just that the approach used by most schools isn't going to make you a good fighter and the reason for that a lot of times is because they let politics dictate how they train. For most schools they try to cram the entire cirriculum down your throat and leave it up to you to pick your bread & butters, refine them, figure out how to use 'em, and spar with them on your own time. Other times, they want you to practise developmental drills for years before you even get enough to start doing that stuff.

I really liked Muay Thai because it's a traditional style with a lot of that guesswork taken care of for you. If you think muay thai doesn't have joint attacks, guiding principles like centerline theory, prearranged routines, internal development, breathing drills, rooting, or techniques that are illegal in the ring- then you don't really know much about it. In muay thai you get quick fighting skills first and then have the rest of your life to cultivate the rest to add into your repertoire later.

Okay I'm gonna jump off my soap box now.
I'm just a little put off by the attitude that anyone who doesn't toot the CMA party line of superhero masters and magic forms is somehow a kung fu basher; just like I'm put off by the attitude that "well all good martial arts looks like kickboxing anyway, so just do that instead".

Sure there's good stuff in CMA, but getting to it is the issue.
Sure there's a whole lot less BS to wade through by going the fighting sport route, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water- there's some good stuff there if the people teaching it would only change their approach.

[mantis108]

what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous.



several people here have acknowledged truth to this. It's been my experience also.

warmup
forms work
applications
bow out

but out of the 1.5 hour class we spent about 15 mins on warm up and 15 mins on application drilling. an hour on average was for forms. sparring was only done once a week during class. sometimes, some of us would spar on our own after class was over. Every TMA school (not just kung fu) that I trained at followed a similar format.

There is another methodology which I called the Short Strike Methodology that is smiliar to the following link demo by the Chinese (Guangdong) SWAT team training.

Guangdong SWAT Team Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6zFUAnGxiE&NR)

The link showed something similar to the experience that I have in our Mantis training. I believe old timers have this type of group training experience. There are 100s of short strike combo like those shown in the clip not to mention the counters to each. So essentially, you can drill these for the entire class like this

warmup (15 to 20 mins H.I.I.T.)
forms work (the combos [10 to 12] that you are focusing on 15 to 20 mins)
applications (step by step drilling 30 mins and drilling them as a whole 30 mins)
sparring (20 - 30 mins)
Cool down (10 - 15 mins)
bow out

This way of drilling is relative safe even without the protective equipments IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

Forms is exactly that- drilling techniques and movement in the air. Same with kung fu. You go from contrived to spontaneous. All styles are supposed to work this way.

forms are done in the air, but are pre set. they also have "hidden applications" you will not find these in shadowboxing. there are similarities, but they are not the same.


I practised jabbing all over the ring. That became combinations. Then the freestyling. This was all shadowboxing according to my coach. And once we became proficient, we did not stop doing them in the air. We continued to drill them in the air in what is called shadowboxing, just as the pro's do.[//quote]

I didn't say you stop doing them in the air - I said you stop doing them in a preset fashion. In addition, shadowboxing tends to take a backseat to sparring and mitt / bagwork, so even if you do considerit a form (which it's not) it's still a minor role compared to the rest.

[quote]Neither you nor tentigers have distinguished what you both call drills and shadowboxing, other than you stating that shadowboxing is spontaneous. You just never did your kung fu forms in that manner.

drills are repetitions of an application. a form is a string or pre set techniques. A form can be broken down into drills. shadowboxing is a spontaneous expression of the techniques you drill, simulating a fight. As stated above, similar to a form yet different.


For me, whether boxing or kung fu, we always looked for three techniques and "drilled" them. The whole form was just a catalogue, while we concentrated on the pieces, found ones that worked for us and favored these in actual sparring.

IMO, that's how it should be done. dunno if I would limit myself to three though. In judo, they told us to have at least 8 - one throw for each direction. In muay thai I like combos gallore - punches in bunches.


And nobody denies the existence of crap schools. Yet you guys keep bringing it up as if it's every cma'ist's routine. Why not, it's the easy way for you to argue. Anybody can argue against a strawman.

nah, it's not about an easy argument at all. I like to debate anyway, so the more challenging the better. But, notice that most everyone here will agree that 95% of schools are crap. Also, notice how nobody that is on these forums will admit to training in one... I doubt everyone on this forum is in the 5%. It's like the 18 year old guy in his group of friends that is afraid to admit he's still a virgin.

[SevenStar]

There is another methodology which I called the Short Strike Methodology that is smiliar to the following link demo by the Chinese (Guangdong) SWAT team training.

Guangdong SWAT Team Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6zFUAnGxiE&NR)

The link showed something similar to the experience that I have in our Mantis training. I believe old timers have this type of group training experience. There are 100s of short strike combo like those shown in the clip not to mention the counters to each. So essentially, you can drill these for the entire class like this

warmup (15 to 20 mins H.I.I.T.)
forms work (the combos [10 to 12] that you are focusing on 15 to 20 mins)
applications (step by step drilling 30 mins and drilling them as a whole 30 mins)
sparring (20 - 30 mins)
Cool down (10 - 15 mins)
bow out

This way of drilling is relative safe even without the protective equipments IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

I was hoping you'd mention that, if not here then in one of the other threads where it was mentioned how people trained back in the day. I've referred to it a lot since you first brought it up a few years ago.

[SevenStar]

I'm quite sure Chuck Lidell is a millionaire... Randy C too. Hughes, if he's not, will be there soon if he's smart.


they wouldn't be millionaires from a single payoff though -- it would be cumulative over the number of fights they've had, and endorsements. it'll be a long time before you see an mma guy with a single 7 figure payoff.

[FatherDog]

I think Matt Hughes makes something like $100,000....not quite seven figures. ;)

Main event headliners get a portion of the PPV proceeds as a bonus in addition to the show/win money that's reported to the athletic commission.

[Chief Fox]

they wouldn't be millionaires from a single payoff though -- it would be cumulative over the number of fights they've had, and endorsements. it'll be a long time before you see an mma guy with a single 7 figure payoff.

This may not be true but it seams to me that boxers get more of a pay day then MMA fighters.

I find this strange because I believe MMA to be the more popular sport at this point in time.

I wonder how much Dana White makes per Pay Per View?

[mantis108]

Main event headliners get a portion of the PPV proceeds as a bonus in addition to the show/win money that's reported to the athletic commission.

But have you notice ... Since UFC 60, there seems to be a "fixing" going on with the cards. I am afraid Dana White is getting more and more like Don king. May be it's Sin City that changes people or people change in order to stay in the Sin City. But then, who's to said no one play money on the side? ;) Sport Career is not forever... So...

Regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Ten Tigers,

Ive been doing Kumdo/ koeran kendo for yrs its awesome fun and you learn alot from it timing, distance etc.

Let me know what you think when you start, good luck?

Garry

[TenTigers]

yah bro, but if'n I do, that other jagoff won't let me call myself a Kung-Fu Guy:(

[fiercest tiger]

Riggggghhhtttt!!!!

Do what you like, who cares what people say! :)

[Faruq]

That would be interesting to find out. I can't see MMA being more popular than a Floyd Mayweahter, Diego Corrales, Miguel Cotto or James Toney fight, unless it was a Pride event taking place in Japan.


This may not be true but it seams to me that boxers get more of a pay day then MMA fighters.

I find this strange because I believe MMA to be the more popular sport at this point in time.

I wonder how much Dana White makes per Pay Per View?

[SevenStar]

This may not be true but it seams to me that boxers get more of a pay day then MMA fighters.

I find this strange because I believe MMA to be the more popular sport at this point in time.

I wonder how much Dana White makes per Pay Per View?

boxing gets a much bigger payday. Overall, boxing is more popular with the masses.

[SavvySavage]

Most of y'all, when you first started training, moved like a bunch of monkeys with two left feet AND vertigo to boot. Me included. I felt like I put the tard in retard when I first started kung fu.

Forms are the best way to get your body moving in the way your system needs it to move. I've seen it time and time again. A person practices forms for a bit and then he uses like three moves from it. Footwork goes completely out the window. What's the point of doing choy li fut if you're just going to revert to what you used to do in your old school. WHo cares. You're doing choy li fut now so move like a choy li fut man. One way to learn how they move is to drill the form. How can you train the fighting aspect of your system if you're still moving like a boxer, or a mantis guy, etc. I feel people try to move to fighting too quickly. The above process takes a while. I know that.

I like the drill drill drill type of training but some styles lend themselves to it better than others. Wing chun and southern mantis are two styles that you can find drills on anything. The potential for two man forms is enormous. A style like...hung kuen? Hung Kuen is harder to drill because there are so many things within it. Headlocks, finger locks, wrist locks, elbow locks, neck locks(not headlocks), stance breaking, a million strikes and a million different places to strike, nerve points, different ways to twist a human body, kicks. Southern mantis has all those as well but I feel a style like southern mantis lends itself to drilling more easily especially since Gin Foon Mark put a few of the drills on tape for all to watch. :) Drilling all of the above in hung kuen becomes tedious and exhausting. Who the hell wants his arm locked a hundred times. And then you stop the arm lock from being put on which also impedes the other person's practice. How many times can I twist you up and strike your neck before you tell me to fcuk myself?

Hmm. I should always drink sake before typing online cause then it forces me to concentrate better. I haven't had any tonight!

Chief fox,
Broham. You complain about your old school in every other post of yours(I just checked through some of them). Get over it, man! You left the school physically and now all you have to do is leave it mentally. By the way. I heard a story about a guy who went to a wing chun school in NYC. He walked in and didn't walk out very happy. :( Was that you? Just wondering. Something...fox was his online name.

[SavvySavage]

Just showered.

Back to my rant about drilling/form.

Do you think you can just drill Ba gua without doing any chi gung/circle walking? In my opinion developing the ba gua body is harder than any style I've seen. We all walk around with tense muscles all over the place. You have to learn to release the tension doing the chi gung. How many of us walk around with our shoulders slightly raised and not even knowing it? My perinium(sp?) muscles have been tight for years. I just learned how to release them the other day and it felt strange because I guess I tighten those up first when engaging in two man drills and such.

[TenTigers]

here's a small example of how we do it:
Our first form is an excerpt from Dahn Fuk Fu Kuen (second half of Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen-for you LSW guys) It focuses on the Hok Jeui (crane comb-simultaneous ping choy with jiew gang-pingchoy is using fung ngan choy, and jiew gang fist is closed-outer block and punch for you karate heads), Gwa-Choy and Ping Choy.
Ok, so first we drill the Hok Jeui, a few times in the air to learn the move, then immediately with partners. We are using this as bik kiu-pressing/crowding bridge, so it is an offensive move.
Then we drill the gwa choy and ping choy-which is part of our basic work out anyway, so all the students have been hitting the pads with this.
First it is used again as Bik-Kiu-crashing through the opponent's bridge. Then we use it defensively vs a punch
Only after they have drilled these techniques for some time, that I teach the form. At that time, they are able to pick up the form, because they already know and feel the movements.
Learning movements to a form that you don't understand the applications to is very difficult. You have no idea what, and where your body is supposed to be in space, and feel. It's just learning random movement with no meaning at that point. Forms taught in this way are meaningless. Simple exercises and nothing more.
There are, however, certain forms that are taught first. Forms such as siu lim tao teach structure and lay a groundwork. Sam Bo Gin teaches the body,breath,and power generation. Sam Jien Kuen -sanchin kata, do likewise, and train the body, and lay the foundation. Ng Lun Ma teaches stance,waist power,shifting horses, etc. Gung Ji Kuen is a training set in the beginning-gung faht, and becomes technique oriented -kuen faht, in later sections.

[gabe]

forms are done in the air, but are pre set. they also have "hidden applications" you will not find these in shadowboxing. there are similarities, but they are not the same.

[quote]I practised jabbing all over the ring. That became combinations. Then the freestyling. This was all shadowboxing according to my coach. And once we became proficient, we did not stop doing them in the air. We continued to drill them in the air in what is called shadowboxing, just as the pro's do.[//quote]

I didn't say you stop doing them in the air - I said you stop doing them in a preset fashion. In addition, shadowboxing tends to take a backseat to sparring and mitt / bagwork, so even if you do considerit a form (which it's not) it's still a minor role compared to the rest.



drills are repetitions of an application. a form is a string or pre set techniques. A form can be broken down into drills. shadowboxing is a spontaneous expression of the techniques you drill, simulating a fight. As stated above, similar to a form yet different.



IMO, that's how it should be done. dunno if I would limit myself to three though. In judo, they told us to have at least 8 - one throw for each direction. In muay thai I like combos gallore - punches in bunches.



nah, it's not about an easy argument at all. I like to debate anyway, so the more challenging the better. But, notice that most everyone here will agree that 95% of schools are crap. Also, notice how nobody that is on these forums will admit to training in one... I doubt everyone on this forum is in the 5%. It's like the 18 year old guy in his group of friends that is afraid to admit he's still a virgin.

It's funny, you define things as if you're opinion is gospel. YOu continue to add to your definition of forms as you go. First you state that they are not spontaneous- they can be and are supposed to be once you have the mechanics down. Yes, cma's work this way as well.

"Hidden applications?" You've added that to the definition of forms?:rolleyes:

Drills repetitively train a technique or motion. That's the purpose of forms. I would state also that forms don't involve a partner or resistance- that's not their purpose. Forms teach movement and body mechanics, whether jabs, crosses or feints and fakes as KF added. And forms are always about simulating a fight. That's the intent of the movements therein. Shadowboxing is indeed a type of forms training. And it was core to my boxing experience in addition to everything else. Everytime we sparred and the coach found mistakes, he corrected them first with shadowboxing, without the opponent, once he was satisfied that are shoulders were in the correct position or our hook mechanics were right, we immediately went back to sparring. Shadowboxing was an important tool, not a minor one.

Combos of 8 or 3, whatever you like for your personal arsenal. Pick a few moves from the form and make it your own.

You can give percentages of bad cma schools all you want. Who cares. But you continue to ignore the 5% that defeats your arguments. The buk sing choy li fut people are a great example. In several of the schools I'm familiar with, the forms people pay the rent Nobody is going to turn away dues from someone who isn't there to fight. As mma grows in popularity, you will see more and more mcdojo's as well with instructors that focus only on paying the rent. Those mcdojo's won't take away from the validity of mma.

[SifuAbel]

I'm working in a gym RIGHT NOW. (who's name I will withhold due to the fact that I don't want to get fired) where the VAST majority of the members are NOT fighters.

[David Jamieson]

I was asked by a gym to teach kungfu at one time because they wanted to add it to their long list of offerings and a couple of their staff were watching me while i practiced in an empty aerobics studio at their facility.

Frankly I was flattered but bowed out for a couple of reasons

1) I'm not qualified to teach any complete system, i can share and show.

2) They didn't want to have anything to do with even minimal contact

just sayin.

btw, it was their second point that sealed it for me more than the first seeing as that's like teaching to paint but not using canvas...or brushes. :p

[WinterPalm]

I think that learning forms AND applications at the same time is a very good approach and it is the one that I have been shown by my Sifu.

In a class we will spend some time warming up, then work applications/sparring, and then forms. Sometimes no forms, sometimes more time spent there.
When I instruct a class it is all basics for one hour including footwork, kicks, stances, and various combinations of techniques done ad infinitum and then against partners...using more and more levels of resistance.

I agree that shown plethora of forms is not the best route from my experience. In over five years I have learned four forms and two weapons. Along the way there is a lot of time spent on applications for most of the sets techniques. In a sense I think the sets/forms are catalogues but there are also a lot of techniques, movements done for conditioning/attribute building/developmental aspects. A set is very demanding if it is long and requires speed to perform at a good pace...so it makes you tired and builds up anaerobic endurance...other sets you sit in a stance, transition and sit and build up leg endurance.

If you were to nit-pick the physical attributes from forms I would say agility, cardiovascular conditioning, explosiveness, and muscle endurance are all contained within it. Now, I could do rope ladder drills, running/sprinting, plyometrics, and calesthetics to make up for those things...but kung fu trains techniques in a somewhat exhausting manner so that as you lose your breathe or endurance, you still have to execute the form quickly and properly. Not to say those other endeavors are not fun or beneficial...but they are right in the set designed to develop you to the fullest through a range of motion almost identical to applications. If one applies the SAID principle, it makes sense to have your supplemental activitities be very similar to actual fighting and to instill direct concepts you will use in fighting.

[sunfist]

Its hard to say forms this or forms that, considering that the structure of forms vary greatly from one art to the next. As TT said above certain forms are designed to lay a groundwork such as SLT, others are pretty much formalised drills, still others are closer to the 'fighting imaginary people' concept. Some styles base everything around form, some like tong bei dont care about them all that much.

As for saying the time doing forms could be better spent doing padwork/sparring, you are comparing two completely different types of training. Form training is generally low intensity and designed to regulate all the bodily systems, and so should be used as a counterpoint to high intensity training... oh wait, this is the internet, so everyone just spends hours in the ring because they are too awesome to get tired, oh well.