Knifefighter question

[sihing]

Dale is this you? http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1078283191 .

From when you met Phil R in LA?

Just curious.

Thx.

J

P.S. The short white guy that is..

[Green Cloud]

Dale is this you? http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1078283191 .

From when you met Phil R in LA?

Just curious.

Thx.

J

P.S. The short white guy that is..

Ohhh my god and you said I look like a cacaroach lying on my back:rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

Now it all makes sence, youv are a chinese MA lover don't try to hide it the truth is out now:)

but in all fareness your in pretty good shape for a Fifty year old and you don't move half bad.

I'm just perplexed by the site since all your buds are CMArtist:confused:

[SifuAbel]

OMG!! That voice! You sound like a jockey.

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!

J/K

:D

[Green Cloud]

OMG!! That voice! You sound like a jockey.

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!

J/K

:D

more like those trolls in the Wizard of OZ:D

[Water Dragon]

*struggles to keep Oompa Loompa joke to himself*

[Knifefighter]

That was Rahsun and I play sparring at a park when Phil was in town.

LOL @ him not hurting me. Not sure what that is about. We were barely making contact with our strikes. I'll have to ask Phil about that.

We were playing with some takedown entries and counters. Funny how he left most of the takedowns out.

Yep, that's my squeaky voice alright.

[Green Cloud]

That was Rahsun and I play sparring at a park when Phil was in town.

LOL @ him not hurting me. Not sure what that is about. We were barely making contact with our strikes. I'll have to ask Phil about that.

We were playing with some takedown entries and counters. Funny how he left most of the takedowns out.

Yep, that's my squeaky voice alright.

Dale we might have our differences but you don't need to explain for an old dude you move quite well.

[SifuAbel]

more like those trolls in the Wizard of OZ:D

Follow, follow , follow, follow...............

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[fiercest tiger]

Knifefighter,

You ate some of the chain punches, did you get any submissions on him?

Garry

[Yum Cha]

**** Knifefighter, your secret is out. You actually act like a nice guy in real life.

And, just who are these snot nosed punks calling you old???


History is written by the guy with the video edit suite...

[SifuAbel]

Heres the part 1 stand up.

http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1062230118

[Knifefighter]

You ate some of the chain punches...
We weren't punching... we were slap/tag-sparring.


did you get any submissions on him?

We weren't working on any submissions or anything else on the ground. We were mostly playing with him working to keep me away and me trying to get into clinch range.

He didn't have any experience on the ground and, with the exception of the time he stood up from my north/south position, we had been stopping each time I took him down.

[David Jamieson]

uh, knife, don't you think the theme of a lot of your arguments here is just a little unfair considering that you dis us a lot and then are shown to play like this which is nothing like the degree of contact you go on about.

I "play" like that regularly. It's good training, more so for whichever guy has the bigger challenge on his hands when dealing with whatever material you are dealing with. Be it Push hands or neutralizing/destroying/dissolving various types of incoming attacks.

you seem to use a silat or tiger kungfu cross guard for your head as opposed to a tight diamond guard in your approach to clinch range, where'd you pick that up? :p

[Knifefighter]

uh, knife, don't you think the theme of a lot of your arguments here is just a little unfair considering that you dis us a lot and then are shown to play like this which is nothing like the degree of contact you go on about.

That's a good point. However, that type of "sparring" is quite unlike the normal sparring I do when training. That was a friendly spur of the moment session with a guy I had just met. It was just slap sparring... no kicks, no groundwork. It was pretty much just playing with distancing into clinching/takedown range. Nobody even brought a mouthpiece.

[KC Elbows]

This explains why KF is always bagging on Abel. Bad flying monkey experiences.

[SifuAbel]

You mean these guys?

http://ken_ashford.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/flying_monkey.jpg

http://www.retrojunction.com/shop/images/products/flying-monkeys-oz-tin-sign.jpg

[Ultimatewingchun]

Listen...Phil Redmond will be 59 in 2 months...I just turned 56 yesterday...and Dale is probably in his mid-fifties also. So I know Phil for many years - as we were partners in the first Traditonal Wing Chun (William Cheung) school here in NYC beginning in 1984 - and are still the best of friends. And I know his student, Rahsun, for many years also.

So let me give all of you an educated guess as to what's going on: Phil probably told Rahsun something like "try to keep it friendly" - and Rahsun being "Rahsun" - he decided to post vids entitled "my sifu told me not to hurt him."

Take it with a grain of salt. :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

you seem to use a silat or tiger kungfu cross guard for your head as opposed to a tight diamond guard in your approach to clinch range, where'd you pick that up? :p


Hmmm, considering his tag is "knife fighter" I got a good idea where he picked it up. I was gonna say Kun Tao, but I don't know enough to differentiate between the two. I do know that Joe used to do a similar 'hinging' thing when he sparred. I'm betting whater's being used is coming from the knifework somewhere.

[MasterKiller]

That's a good point. However, that type of "sparring" is quite unlike the normal sparring I do when training. That was a friendly spur of the moment session with a guy I had just met. It was just slap sparring... no kicks, no groundwork. It was pretty much just playing with distancing into clinching/takedown range. Nobody even brought a mouthpiece.


Yeah, but it was 10 minutes you could have spent doing something more practical. And when you shifted your stance to left-leg-back/right-leg-foward, you wasted about 45 seconds because unless you are left handed you wouldn't really fight that way. The only conclusion I can make from this video is that your entire training regime is not realistic and should be revised.:p

[FuXnDajenariht]

lmao..........:D

oh snap!

that was a good one.

[SifuAbel]

Yeah, but it was 10 minutes you could have spent doing something more practical. And when you shifted your stance to left-leg-back/right-leg-foward, you wasted about 45 seconds because unless you are left handed you wouldn't really fight that way. The only conclusion I can make from this video is that your entire training regime is not realistic and should be revised.:p

priceless........ :D

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, but it was 10 minutes you could have spent doing something more practical. And when you shifted your stance to left-leg-back/right-leg-foward, you wasted about 45 seconds because unless you are left handed you wouldn't really fight that way. The only conclusion I can make from this video is that your entire training regime is not realistic and should be revised.:p
Ah... but I am left handed.

But this does bring up a good point. How many KF guys never go any harder than the slappy sparring shown on that clip and consider that type of thing sparring or fighting? I'll bet there are a lot.

[Royal Dragon]

I just do forms, and stances......

[Flying-Monkey]

Playing around or not, I am amazed at all the sh!t you talk after a display like that.

[Knifefighter]

Playing around or not, I am amazed at all the sh!t you talk after a display like that.

You are right. That was a pretty bad display. I'm definitely not that good at play slap-sparring.

[Flying-Monkey]

You are right. That was a pretty bad display. I'm definitely not that good at play slap-sparring.

Although, I must admit that you could shot many times on the video with just slap boxing.

[cjurakpt]

You are right. That was a pretty bad display. I'm definitely not that good at play slap-sparring.

so by logical extrapolation, you must therrefore suck at everyting else...:rolleyes:

Hey Dale, too bad we won't be seeing you in NY anytime soon: seems that the "Dirty Laundry" thread has collapsed under its own weight...guess we'll just have to take a rain check on our drunken journal review escapade (man, that so would make those freakin' conferences way more tolerable...)

[cjurakpt]

I just do forms, and stances......

I just think about forms and stances

[Royal Dragon]

Lol!!!! --------------------> :d

[Knifefighter]

.guess we'll just have to take a rain check on our drunken journal review escapade (man, that so would make those freakin' conferences way more tolerable...)
Speaking of drunken journal reviews:

What is your opinion on whole body vibration training for performance improvement and/or rehab and/or flexibility training?

[cjurakpt]

Speaking of drunken journal reviews:

What is your opinion on whole body vibration training for performance improvement and/or rehab and/or flexibility training?

no opinion on it - never heard of it - sounds interesting though; would this be something I could find out about on Pub Med / Medline? it sounds vaguely new age, so maybe that' s not the right venue? (not that that's a problem per se: I'm a big fan of good osteopathic manual medicine, including cranial treatment, despite the majority of RCT's weighing greatly against it in general)

[Yum Cha]

You are right. That was a pretty bad display. I'm definitely not that good at play slap-sparring.

Something tells me you're not going to train up your slap sparring now, to perfect your skills.

So, Why did you do it?

Did you want to have some fun messing around with a friend?

Did you want to practice some strategy and probe another style for its techniques?

Were you after a bit of easy exercise on a nice afternoon in the park?

Were you trying to teach somebody something that didn't need high-pressure?

Or were you just doing something stupid, a total waste of your time that taught you nothing, that you regret and will never do again? Was it so stupid that it actually sucked skill out of you?

[Knifefighter]

no opinion on it - never heard of it - sounds interesting though; would this be something I could find out about on Pub Med / Medline? it sounds vaguely new age, so maybe that' s not the right venue? (not that that's a problem per se: I'm a big fan of good osteopathic manual medicine, including cranial treatment, despite the majority of RCT's weighing greatly against it in general)
No, it's not New Age stuff. Some sports teams are using it and I've seen some promising (as well as some mixed results) research on it. You can probably find some studies on Pub Med.

I've been using it a bit in my training for a couple months now and have noticed some results... but I'm always leery of placebo effects.

[Knifefighter]

Or were you just doing something stupid, a total waste of your time that taught you nothing, that you regret and will never do again? Was it so stupid that it actually sucked skill out of you?
Yes, it was that one. You could see the skill being sucked out of me and as time went on I kept gettting worse and worse as more and more skill was sucked away.

Actually, we were mostly playing with me working into clinch range and him keeping me away. He was quite good at not letting me get the clinch in that situation.

For me the session was a chance to play around with someone from another style in a very low key manner as well as a little experiment to check out a couple of things I had been thinking about.

[FuXnDajenariht]

gawd im so drunk right now. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

God knows how many times I've crossed swords with Dale (Knifefighter) over on the Wing Chun forum during the last few years - including some pm's wherein we were discussing where and when we would get together for an all out nasty fight (which never happened).

But the point is - I've no vested interest in defending the guy.

However...this was just a friendly get together between Phil Redmond (who was holding the camera) and Dale Frank - since Phil has also spent a lot of time on the Wing Chun forum and conversed with Dale many times. Phil happened to go to a martial art event in California that Dale was also attending.

So it was decided after some conversation that Dale and Phil's student, Rahsun, would have a friendly light sparring session to see how well Traditional Wing Chun would do against a BJJ MMA guy who also knows striking and kicking.

Very friendly.

And in fact, Phil is now upset with Rahsun for posting this stuff - and especially for the "my sifu told me not to hurt him" title.

I've known Rahsun for many years - and although he's basically a good guy...he's always been something of a hotdog. :cool: :eek: :)

Like I said - take it all with a grain of salt.

[Ford Prefect]

Speaking of drunken journal reviews:

What is your opinion on whole body vibration training for performance improvement and/or rehab and/or flexibility training?

Not to hijack the thread, but after reading some articles (both journal and regular training ones), I've given it a try. It's not to scientific, but I have a good handheld massager that I use. It definately aids in going deeper into stretches. I generally only use it when I have a really bad case of DOMS. It helps relax the muscle to the point where I can stretch it through my full ROM, and empirically, I'd say it helps in my recovery.

[lkfmdc]

It looks like two guys with no equipment going light

and, gasp, when asked, it is apparenlty two guys going light with no equipment :rolleyes:

[yenhoi]

I dunno how much is up and ready on the net, but there is video of KF fighting sticks full contact.

:eek:

[Phil Redmond]

Listen...Phil Redmond will be 59 in 2 months...I just turned 56 yesterday...and Dale is probably in his mid-fifties also. So I know Phil for many years - as we were partners in the first Traditonal Wing Chun (William Cheung) school here in NYC beginning in 1984 - and are still the best of friends. And I know his student, Rahsun, for many years also.

So let me give all of you an educated guess as to what's going on: Phil probably told Rahsun something like "try to keep it friendly" - and Rahsun being "Rahsun" - he decided to post vids entitled "my sifu told me not to hurt him."

Take it with a grain of salt. :rolleyes:
Correct Victor, when you called me last night to tell me I was shocked. After Dale posted the Props to Phil Redmond thread I stated that I would't post any clips of the "friendly" exchange because I knew some keyboard warriors would say what coulda shoulda. I don't know what was posted or where but I left Dale a message apologizing for my student.
P Redmond

[Phil Redmond]

Listen...Phil Redmond will be 59 in 2 months...I just turned 56 yesterday...and Dale is probably in his mid-fifties also. So I know Phil for many years - as we were partners in the first Traditonal Wing Chun (William Cheung) school here in NYC beginning in 1984 - and are still the best of friends. And I know his student, Rahsun, for many years also.

So let me give all of you an educated guess as to what's going on: Phil probably told Rahsun something like "try to keep it friendly" - and Rahsun being "Rahsun" - he decided to post vids entitled "my sifu told me not to hurt him."

Take it with a grain of salt. :rolleyes:
I'll be 59 November 29 . . ;)
Phil

[SifuAbel]

He was quite good at not letting me get the clinch in that situation.


Yeah no kidding, he was, like, 5 feet taller than you........... LOL!!!

[WinterPalm]

Just a couple comments:

Was the wing chun guy informed at all about ground fighting? You took him down and then he easily moved you off and stood back up which, technically, is impossible for a kung fu guy to do against a well trained wrestler...which I'm assuming by your profile you've been doing for at least awhile.:D

Next, why is your guard continually going so low, down to the hip? Considering he is a wing chun guy who will probably throw punches to the head, wouldn't it make more sense to defend upstairs?

Third, for the type of footwork you are using you seem to be pretty heavy on your feet. You are searching for some type of deceptive manuever to get the takedown/clinch, but you aren't springy enough in that regard. Obviously he is heavy but he is set and waiting.

You seem to be moving a lot in ways that just seem to be tiring...like wasting energy. Have you thought about setups in this regard? I know that deception and feinting can have a benefit on keeping the guy on his toes but you spent so much time feinting and not enough using setups. Almost like you were awkward...and this could be becuase it wasn't your usual all out till the death sparring style!:D

However:

I liked the movement to a degree and the deceptive ways you move your hands when coming in...obviously heavily influenced by TFMA and the striking was very different and closer to a kung fu style than I expected...which suited the match because of his size and strength advantages which you tried to overcome in a light technique-wise manner.

I would like to see more control in your techniques and strikes so that when doing this type of thing you could still put power and skill into it and not hit/hurt the guy too bad. That is one advantage to many systems of kung fu is that the techniques and sparring practice build up from what you displayed to harder and harder levels of contact still retaining the control and awareness of the opponent. This is a good exercise: do a workout on the heavy bag but throw all your shots as quick and hard as you can but don't make contact...it will teach you some control which is imperative in stand-up fighting.

Good to see some clips finally!

[Knifefighter]

Was the wing chun guy informed at all about ground fighting? You took him down and then he easily moved you off and stood back up which, technically, is impossible for a kung fu guy to do against a well trained wrestler...which I'm assuming by your profile you've been doing for at least awhile.:D
I had taken him down a couple of times before this and we had stopped right after the takedown, so I wasn't working that hard to stabilize a position on the ground, since I thought we were going to stop again. That was the same reason I didn't attempt to work anything with my guard once I went to my back and why we stopped and had that little discussion about whether or not to keep going.

That being said, he may still have been able to push me off even if I was working harder to stabilize. I can usually hold just about anyone down, regardless of size once I have the position stabilized, but I will sometimes get reversed against a bigger guy before I get my control position.


Next, why is your guard continually going so low, down to the hip? Considering he is a wing chun guy who will probably throw punches to the head, wouldn't it make more sense to defend upstairs?
For me, that session was all about working into clinch range and him keeping me outside. We weren't going hard, so I wasn't worried about taking shots.


Third, for the type of footwork you are using you seem to be pretty heavy on your feet. You are searching for some type of deceptive manuever to get the takedown/clinch, but you aren't springy enough in that regard.
I've had a severe case of hip flexor tendonitis for the last two years and my mobility has been pretty much shot the last eight months or so. That's why I have so much head movement- it's my attempt to compensate for my inablity to stay mobile.

Tics me off because footwork and mobility used to be one of my stronger points. Very soon I need to rest and give it a chance to heal up.



You seem to be moving a lot in ways that just seem to be tiring..
LOL @ tiring.
You might be surprised at who gets tired and who doesn't get tired when I spar .
I almost never gas out.


obviously heavily influenced by TFMA
I only use the FMA stuff when I do weapons.




the striking was very different and closer to a kung fu style than I expected...
That's the way I sparred when I did CMA, and I tend to revert to that when I do slap sparring.



I would like to see more control in your techniques and strikes so that when doing this type of thing you could still put power and skill into it and not hit/hurt the guy too bad. That is one advantage to many systems of kung fu is that the techniques and sparring practice build up from what you displayed to harder and harder levels of contact still retaining the control and awareness of the opponent.
Good to see some clips finally!
Can you post some clips of you doing this so I can see what you mean?

[Mr Punch]

Does Joe Pesci ever call and threaten to have you whacked if you don't return his voice?

[WinterPalm]

I had taken him down a couple of times before this and we had stopped right after the takedown, so I wasn't working that hard to stabilize a position on the ground, since I thought we were going to stop again. That was the same reason I didn't attempt to work anything with my guard once I went to my back and why we stopped and had that little discussion about whether or not to keep going.

That being said, he may still have been able to push me off even if I was working harder to stabilize. I can usually hold just about anyone down, regardless of size once I have the position stabilized, but I will sometimes get reversed against a bigger guy before I get my control position.


For me, that session was all about working into clinch range and him keeping me outside. We weren't going hard, so I wasn't worried about taking shots.

When doing this you might run the risk of developing bad habits. In training, no matter how light or hard, you should strive to do it properly.

I've had a severe case of hip flexor tendonitis for the last two years and my mobility has been pretty much shot the last eight months or so. That's why I have so much head movement- it's my attempt to compensate for my inablity to stay mobile.

Tics me off because footwork and mobility used to be one of my stronger points. Very soon I need to rest and give it a chance to heal up.



LOL @ tiring.
You might be surprised at who gets tired and who doesn't get tired when I spar .
I almost never gas out.

I wasn't implying you were going to gas...but wasting energy is wasting energy and someday any strength one has may not be to his advantage. I have very good cardio but I would never consider wasting energy. Maybe this approach is not wasting energy for you?

I only use the FMA stuff when I do weapons.




That's the way I sparred when I did CMA, and I tend to revert to that when I do slap sparring.

If that is the way you sparred in CMA than I would say that you were either a novice or not under good instruction. How long have you been training other stuff? Bad habits can be hard to break.


Can you post some clips of you doing this so I can see what you mean?

I don't personally do this but I'm sure you can figure out how to pull a punch??:)

[yenhoi]

Classic

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Knifefighter]

I don't personally do this but I'm sure you can figure out how to pull a punch??:)
LOL @ giving advice on something you don't even do.

Um... what exactly DO you do? Maybe you could post something of that.

[David Jamieson]

um that guys is about 40 pounds heavier and near a foot taller than knife.

It can be expected that he (kf) won't do well in play like this.

Might be different if the intention was different.

[lkfmdc]

Knife Fighter, they all want you to look like the deadly kung fu master in this famous clip

www.youtube.com/v/Mjux_y5Xp64

(/sarcasm)

[David Jamieson]

lol @ the Bull****o "proof" clip.

That was lame then and it's lame now.
I totaly did get your sarcasm dave, just saying.

Bull****o needs to redo that to save some face.
Like maybe using an actual kungfu guy instead of twigy in black. :rolleyes: :D

[lkfmdc]

you do realize that was a real fight? The black twig really was a guy who thought he was all deadly and issued a challenge...

I was being sarcastic in one sense, but not in another... people have very disconnected views of "reality"... Mr Black Twig thought he was a fighter.

[WinterPalm]

I was just trying to give you some advice that might help. I don't slap spar so I don't know what to do to get better at it.
The two foot height and eighty pound weight difference does have a definate influence but I still thought that after all the talk Knifefighter would come out looking somewhat better than a newbie at a mcdojo.:D

In terms of what you look like when you spar, I could care less about that. Doing things properly and looking like a wushu movie are two different things. Are you being yourself or trying to imitate something you saw?

Oh! That new clip from LKFMDC proves once and for all that if Knifefighter was 'actually trying' he would have won!

And the only reason I'm saying these things is because knifefighter is on here ragging on everybody with his high and mighty mma stance and I think it's crap and then after being asked repeatedly to put up a clip of his greatness, these clips come up.:eek:

[Knifefighter]

I was just trying to give you some advice that might help. I don't slap spar so I don't know what to do to get better at it.
No problem. Could you post a clip of you sparring so I can see what that is like?


The two foot height and eighty pound weight difference does have a definate influence but I still thought that after all the talk Knifefighter would come out looking somewhat better than a newbie at a mcdojo.:D
Yep... I'm pretty bad at that type of sparring.
What did you think of the other guy?


Are you being yourself or trying to imitate something you saw?
Since I hadn't sparred like that in years, I'm not sure what I was "being".




...after being asked repeatedly to put up a clip of his greatness, these clips come up.:eek:
Actually, I don't think I ever claimed "greatness" for myself.

I'm an advocate for the MMA approach, of which that clip was not.

[yenhoi]

Isent this a newer clip?

Why doesnt anyone ever ask KF to post clips of himself knife fighting?

hah!

:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

you do realize that was a real fight? The black twig really was a guy who thought he was all deadly and issued a challenge...
Funny thing was, he didn't want to fight the MMA guy at first because he didn't think the MMA guy was good enough, as he was only a BJJ purple belt.

[lkfmdc]

Well, once again, we should start from the fact this is two guys going very light with no equipment in a friendly session




I still thought that after all the talk Knifefighter would come out looking somewhat better than a newbie at a mcdojo



Because of a statement like that you should post yourself doing something. It wasn't an f-in Jet Lee movie but KF kept his hands up, closed the distance and got a takedown, ie he looked fine to me... but what do I know :rolleyes:




Oh! That new clip from LKFMDC proves once and for all that if Knifefighter was 'actually trying' he would have won!



I see you didn't get the point of the clip. YOU might be just like Mr Black Twiggy, you may THINK you are great, but as we've seen, twiggy was not a fighter. Of course, if he just liked what he did and was happy, who are we to say anything? More power to him. But twiggy challened a pro MMA fighter because he thought he was so good :rolleyes:




And the only reason I'm saying these things is because knifefighter is on here ragging on everybody with his high and mighty mma stance and I think it's crap



Actually, KF intelligently debates a lot of assumptions in TMA and challenge people to gasp think and be better

The "high and mighty MMA stance" is basicly knowing where you really stand. I've never seen KF claim he'd enter the UFC and win it all in any weight class. KF has fought, heck, the man has a BB in BJJ... that's more than most of us will ever achieve. Not to mention I wouldn't be caught dead doing Dog Brothers gatherings, I admire them, but I also think they are too much contact for me, I'm not that level...

Compare the range there.... from MMA pro, to MMA amateur, to MMA person who isn't an active competitor, to MMA student.. and then compare that to some people who have totally dis connnected views on where they sit

[Knifefighter]

Why doesnt anyone ever ask KF to post clips of himself knife fighting?
I think I've said this before, but I'm on many of the clips on the dog brothers site.

[lkfmdc]

Funny thing was, he didn't want to fight the MMA guy at first because he didn't think the MMA guy was good enough, as he was only a BJJ purple belt.

yeah, sadly, I am all too familiar with that sort of mind set :rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

KF, your insistence on contact has prevented you from having a need to develop a good no touch knockout.

This may be why Margaret Hamilton so easily dominated your people.

[David Jamieson]

you do realize that was a real fight? The black twig really was a guy who thought he was all deadly and issued a challenge...

I was being sarcastic in one sense, but not in another... people have very disconnected views of "reality"... Mr Black Twig thought he was a fighter.

schooling an idiot doesn't equate to prooving one thing or another, besides the dude got a big cup of wake the f*** up. lol

listen, if that guy thought he was bad, so be it, but to serve it up as proof of one thing vs another is erroneous at best is what I was pointing out.
clearly twiggy in black was NOT hwat he thought he was...lol..i mean obviously.

such is the price of overinflated ego and trashtalk. all that aside, the clip is pretty funny.

[SifuAbel]

Oh God!! Not the same old beat up Scott vs. Marsh video AGAIN!!!

If memory serves me, it was KF that was supposed to fight him. He bowed out because of a supposed eye surgery that he went through the day before or some tripe of that ilk. Instead he brought along that gorilla. Convenient.

Point is , he DID look like that "kung fu master". LOL!!!

Of course he was just slap playing with the guy. His REAL skill was kept in reserve as to not give it away for the camera.

Point is, guy, you should have looked better no matter what level of contact you're trying to pull.

[Faruq]

What's their website? Also, which clips do we click on to see YOU in action, bro?

[WinterPalm]

First off, I am not the one on a forum of which I do not actively participate in the activity said forum is dedicated to and going on about how much those people are no good. That is my point. So imagine going to a chess forum and trying to convince everyone that checkers is better and then a clip of me surfaces in which I am not doing all the things I claim to be able to do?

My reactions are just giving knifefighter what he deserves after attacking clips of many other people on here and thinking that one can extrapolate much more than the clips were designed to intend. Search my entire post count and you won't find one instance in which I say I am anything more than a student...I'm not a grandmaster and I don't shoot my mouth off about it either.

I hardly doubt those clips looked good to anyone. Who cares if he got a takedown when he was just pushed right off again and ate a ton of punches going in and then while on the bottom?

Twiggy in black and knifefighter end up in the same basket when you view the clips together. One looks like bad kung fu and the other bad mma. Both done against bigger and, by the look of the clips, better fighters.

In the end, KF probably does have skill as many seem to vouch for him but I also think many are fed-up with his garbage on this site.

Faruq, his next reply will be that you have to drop 40$ to see him in action in one of their DVD's. That's what happened when I asked awhile back.

[yenhoi]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Here comes the kung fu brigade to clean out the forums of the unpure and unfaithful. lol

Lucklily this isent IRC with that pesky kick thing...

/me slaps WinterPalm around with a big fish :eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look...there's a huge difference between all out sparring/fighting (ie.-punches, kicks, elbows, knees are meant to connect with vulnerable targets and do damage....takedowns are immediately followed with more control/pinning measures leading to strikes or submissions, etc.)...

there's a huge difference between going all out and the vid clips of Dale and Rahsun.

This is light sparring using no closed fist head contact whatsoever, wherein no kicks are being thrown and where very little-to-no followup is used when it went to the ground.

You can't judge either fighter's total skillsets by this.

[sihing]

Look...there's a huge difference between all out sparring/fighting (ie.-punches, kicks, elbows, knees are meant to connect with vulnerable targets and do damage....takedowns are immediately followed with more control/pinning measures leading to strikes or submissions, etc.)...

there's a huge difference between going all out and the vid clips of Dale and Rahsun.

This is light sparring using no closed fist head contact whatsoever, wherein no kicks are being thrown and where very little-to-no followup is used when it went to the ground.

You can't judge either fighter's total skillsets by this.

Just a quick comment. It is true you can't judge the TOTAL skill of any fighter when they are just movin around together on a video, but you can tell to a point what kind of skills are present in people involved. Now, IMO the WC guy didn't really show quality skills just for the fact that whenever Dale came at him his shoulders raised up and he retreated when ever he was attacked. How do you defend yourself when you are retreating all the time (this is the video where him and Dale are stand up fighting only, not the grappling one)? His hands where way to far out there, how do you generate power when your arms are already fully exteneded. Now, on the contrary I've seen clips of GM Cheung light sparring with a boxer, similar to this situation, and he didn't retreat and did counter the attacks (although I don't fully agree on his followup methods, on the clips he keep on trying to blindside the guy instead of just coming in forward with his counter, but to each their own) his boxing opponent used against him. The was a BIG difference in skills here.

Plus, if this was supposed to be just a lite sparring slap happy session, why did Rushun (sp?) make that note about his Sifu not wanting him to hurt this JJ guy?

James

[David Jamieson]

arms being extended shortens the distance of your defensive capabilities. It's notythe only way, but it is one way. the en guarde type arms position as seen in the clip being used by the wc guy is not uncommon in defensive positioning in a few kungfu styles.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, Chinese Checkers is better than regular checkers, AND Chess....

[WinterPalm]

My purpose, and the point I've gotten across, is that someone should try and be more respectful towards others before condemning what they do.

Good intelligent and insightful conversation and debate is no problem but when someone does it so beligerantly and in such a rude manner, he should only expect something like this backlash to occur when he is seen in a clip not doing what he preaches.

In terms of Chinese checkers...if you combined the strategery of chess AND the incredible stacking ability and multiple king component of checkers...nothing could combine with that...especially if you play on a RISK board. I call it MMBG (mixed martial board games...or bored!)

[sihing]

arms being extended shortens the distance of your defensive capabilities. It's notythe only way, but it is one way. the en guarde type arms position as seen in the clip being used by the wc guy is not uncommon in defensive positioning in a few kungfu styles.

Hi David,

Yeah, I understand the concept behind it, I did the system demonstrated in the vid for 18yrs. It works at a certain range like, in kicking & punching range, but any closer and you may run into problems IMO. You should be on the attack when in closer, not in on guard position.:D

Lately, I prefer and non static posture when on the outside, something more mobile and less stable, with hands in a not so set position. As you get in closer your stability increases and mobility decreases as you will require less movement to adjust to your opponents counters, with the hands becoming more set as you get closer. If your unstable while in close you can be pushed off balance and therefore in big trouble of being defeated by your enemies in range weapons i.e. strikes and takedowns.

James

[sihing]

My purpose, and the point I've gotten across, is that someone should try and be more respectful towards others before condemning what they do.

Good intelligent and insightful conversation and debate is no problem but when someone does it so beligerantly and in such a rude manner, he should only expect something like this backlash to occur when he is seen in a clip not doing what he preaches.

In terms of Chinese checkers...if you combined the strategery of chess AND the incredible stacking ability and multiple king component of checkers...nothing could combine with that...especially if you play on a RISK board. I call it MMBG (mixed martial board games...or bored!)


Agreed..:cool:

J

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! I was waiting for someone to take it in that direction!! Mixed Board games!! LOL!! MBG's!

[sihing]

"Plus, if this was supposed to be just a lite sparring slap happy session, why did Rushun (sp?) make that note about his Sifu not wanting him to hurt this JJ guy?"


***I'VE KNOWN RAHSUN for many years...and the reason is because he thinks he's awesome. Basically a nice guy - but with an overblown ego. Phil Redmond never said any such thing to Rahsun...believe me. I know that for a fact. That was just Rahsun being Rahsun.

OK cool...:D

J

[Flying-Monkey]

That clip is old. That guy was a clown. I only see MMAist fight no name clowns who say that they do KF. When you post a clip of a real KF guy, then we can talk.

[The Xia]

That clip is old. That guy was a clown. I only see MMAist fight no name clowns who say that they do KF. When you post a clip of a real KF guy, then we can talk.
That should touch a nerve! :D

[WinterPalm]

Along those lines, maybe it is time that Rashun had a match with a real MMA guy or maybe Knifefighter should show us his true real ultimate power!

[Knifefighter]

My reactions are just giving knifefighter what he deserves after attacking clips of many other people on here and thinking that one can extrapolate much more than the clips were designed to intend.
I wouldn't cricize anyone who posted a clip like that and said they were just play sparring.;

What I would have, and have, criticized people for doing was for thinking something like that clip was somehow representative of real fighting.


Twiggy in black and knifefighter end up in the same basket when you view the clips together. One looks like bad kung fu and the other bad mma. Both done against bigger and, by the look of the clips, better fighters.
Big difference. One was a real fight that continued on the ground and the clueless kung fu guy ended up with his arm broken... the other was play slapping that had absolutely no ground fighting involved.

[Knifefighter]

Now, IMO the WC guy didn't really show quality skills just for the fact that whenever Dale came at him his shoulders raised up and he retreated when ever he was attacked. How do you defend yourself when you are retreating all the time (this is the video where him and Dale are stand up fighting only, not the grappling one)? His hands where way to far out there, how do you generate power when your arms are already fully exteneded. Now, on the contrary I've seen clips of GM Cheung light sparring with a boxer, similar to this situation, and he didn't retreat and did counter the attacks (although I don't fully agree on his followup methods, on the clips he keep on trying to blindside the guy instead of just coming in forward with his counter, but to each their own) his boxing opponent used against him. The was a BIG difference in skills here.
My understanding is that he is a top kung fu sifu in Cheung's organization. Maybe you should take up his lack of skills with him.


Plus, if this was supposed to be just a lite sparring slap happy session, why did Rushun (sp?) make that note about his Sifu not wanting him to hurt this JJ guy?
That is a good question. As you can see by watching it is very light and all in fun. Obviously, nobody was trying to hurt anybody else there.

Why indeed he would post that, I don't know. I can only hazard a guess that maybe he wanted others to think more highly of him on that clip... but you can ask him that when you contact him to discuss how you think he is lacking in skills.

[Knifefighter]

Point is, guy, you should have looked better no matter what level of contact you're trying to pull.
LOL @ should have "LOOKED" better.

Typical non-fighter kung fu response.

Fighting has nothing to do with how good you look.

Looking good is for the movies... which is exactly what non-fighters think that fighting is supposed to look like.

BTW, if I remember correctly from the clips you posted of yourself sparring, you looked like a complete spaz.

[Flying-Monkey]

LOL @ should have "LOOKED" better.

Typical non-fightier kung fu response.

Fighting has nothing to do with how good you look.

Looking good is for the movies... which is exactly what non-fighters think that fighting is supposed to look like.

BTW, if I remember correctly from the clips you posted of yourself sparring, you looked like a complete spaz.

LOL!!!!!!!!

[Knifefighter]

maybe Knifefighter should show us his true real ultimate power!
Excellent point... I agree wholeheartedly.

Abel, you live less than an hour away from me, in Riverside, I believe. How about coming on up here and we'll do a session to see who "looks" better .
Oh, that's right, I've invited you down before, but you have always found some reason to decline.

WP, do you ever make to LA?
Oh, that's right... you are just a mere beginning student.

I would be more than happy to have a more realistic and harder sparring session with any of those who are making criticisms. We can do a hard session that is more realistic and includes groundfighting. We can record and post it to compare and contrast my "technique" with yours.

[SifuAbel]

Better than looking like a stick figure doing the cha cha, helium boy.

:rolleyes: Fighter shmighter, sorry to burst you very tiny bubble but the best fighters in the world LOOK good doing it. You can SEE thier skill. By your own standard of snap shot polaroid judgement, this was ****.

[Knifefighter]

Fighter shmighter, sorry to burst you very tiny bubble but the best fighters in the world LOOK good doing it. You can SEE thier skill. By your own standard of snap shot polaroid judgement, this was ****.
Then I guess, if we are going by that judgement, we both must suck.

[SifuAbel]

Abel, you live less than an hour away from me, in Riverside, I believe. How about coming on up here and we'll do a session to see who "looks" better .
Oh, that's right, I've invited you down before, but you have always found some reason to decline.


You mean like the time you were going to show up at my school on like 5 different times. Or the time you were supposed to go to the park I was teaching at and never showed. :rolleyes:

You know, peanut, I kinda didn't care about the likes of you much but now I see that letting a BS loud mouthed leaping gnome like you rattle on is not the best policy. My knee is about 60%. When I'm closer to 80% I'll just show up at your office. That should be in month or two. How about that?

Thats not a long time to wait concidering I've been waiting for you for years.
Before you ask, it was a lateral release.

[SifuAbel]

Then I guess, if we are going by that judgement, we both must suck.

Yeah, but you're better at sucking.

[Knifefighter]

When I'm closer to 80% I'll just show up at your office. That should be in month or two. How about that? .
Perfect.
I'll be here.

WP?

[SifuAbel]

Ok then no more BS talk.


Oh BTW, I would like to have the names of the Kung fu teachers you've beaten in the past. They might want to be there or at least want a video.

Lets see.........

You say you beat the teacher at the eagle claw school. And who else?

[Knifefighter]

Just show up.

[SifuAbel]

That is your claim to fame here, isn't it? You've beat so and so etc etc.

Are you telling me that I would be the first?

Come on now, don't be shy. Lets have some names.

[Knifefighter]

That is your claim to fame here, isn't it? .
My only claim to fame is to finally getting you to commit to a time frame for actually showing up for a hard sparring session.

[SifuAbel]

My showing up is a certainty. And it will be me giving the lecture.

What isn't a certainty now is all the talk about you beating all these kung fu teachers.

Well, come on, spit it out. You always want verification from others. Its your turn now.

[sihing]

Perfect.
I'll be here.

James, how about you?

WP?


Okay, so what happened here?? I made some comments on the WC guy because that is the style I practice, and none about you and now you want to teach me a lesson??:confused:

Your way to happy to fight dude, you should chill out a bit..

Besides beating me won't prove anything, as I'm no fighter, lol. I practice what I do because I love it. Plain and simple.

James

[SifuAbel]

Oh don't sweat it dude. Thats what most chiquaquas do when cornered. They bear their teeth and start yipping and snorting.

You wouldn't be the first ultra long distance gauntlet he's thrown down.

[Knifefighter]

Okay, so what happened here?? I made some comments on the WC guy because that is the style I practice, and none about you and now you want to teach me a lesson??:confused:
James-
You are right. I got your posts confused with Abel's and WD's. My bad and I apologize for that.

However, I'm betting Rahsun might have a bit of an interest in sparring with you after hearing of your comments about him.

[SifuAbel]

Now about those kung fu teachers............... :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Now about those kung fu teachers............... :rolleyes:
Numerous no-name guys. Hmmm... kinda like you.

[SifuAbel]

LOL! No, no, no. If I said something to that effect you would discount it as fantasy. Which I think is what you are alluding to right now. Pure fantasy.

They have names as far as I'm concerned. There are only so many KF schools near you. Which teachers did you fight? Were you lieing all these years?

BTW, you are a no name too, so don't get too high on that horse, jockey boy.

[Knifefighter]

Speaking of chihuahuas, ever notice how once the "fight" is supposedly on, the non-fighters always start yapping and changing the subject?

[SifuAbel]

How am I changing the subject? You lieing about fighting all these teachers IS the subject.

You can't even give me a straight answer. You couldn't then and you can't now. Because you never did. The best I think you've ever done is hang out with the beginners. If I'm wrong you could easily say , "I fought so and so." That so and so would have no choice but to corroborate the story. Just like in your world, yippy, these things are verifiable. Kung fu teachers of any worth are known and public.

[Knifefighter]

You lieing about fighting all these teachers IS the subject.

You can't even give me a straight answer. You couldn't then and you can't now. Because you never did. The best I think you've ever done is hang out with the beginners.
Sure... fine... whatever.

Just show up for your sparring session.

[SifuAbel]

Dodge, parry, spin..............

Daffy,

You aren't going weasel out of this one. My showing up isn't the subject, thats already a given.

Come on. Lets have it.

[Knifefighter]

Ok then no more BS talk.
LOL!!!
Just show up and demonstrate how bad I am. That should fix everything.

[SifuAbel]

Just show up for your sparring session.

Non fighter, slappy tappy, blah blah blah.

You talk a HUGE amount of BS in your game. The way you go on and on, as if you were twice your size and ten times better than you really are.

I have news for you, pippy. I've been a fighter for a LOOOONG time. And the only lesson I'll learn from you is not to abuse the elderly.

[SifuAbel]

Just show up.


My only claim to fame is to finally getting you to commit to a time frame for actually showing up for a hard sparring session.


James-
You are right. I got your posts confused with Abel's and WD's. My bad and I apologize for that.

However, I'm betting Rahsun might have a bit of an interest in sparring with you after hearing of your comments about him.


Speaking of chihuahuas, ever notice how once the "fight" is supposedly on, the non-fighters always start yapping and changing the subject?


Sure... fine... whatever.

Just show up for your sparring session.


LOL!!!
Just show up and demonstrate how bad I am. That should fix everything.



And I'm changing the subject. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

And the only lesson I'll learn from you is not to abuse the elderly.
Oh no! Here it comes again... not the backpedaling again.

What was it last time? I was too old? Or was it you were too fat?

[Knifefighter]

And I'm changing the subject. :rolleyes:
Wasn't the subject whether or not I was the person on the clip?
And wasn't the subject about how much I sucked?
And wasn't the subject about me inviting the naysayers to spar to compare how much I suck?
And didn't you agree to come to my office to show me how much I suck?
How were kung fu "masters" even remotely related to the subject?

[SifuAbel]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I am going to abuse of you. Elderly or not. Shrimpy or not. Delusional or not. Theres no more need to chase this line of thinking. There will be no back pedalling. There hasn't been any in this whole thread. Only you changing the subject from the lie I caught you in again.

And the "last time" was you coming to the park and never showing up.

Which was preceded by the you "coming to my school" threat about 20 times. yawn.

Now, about those kung fu teachers.........

[SifuAbel]

How were kung fu "masters" even remotely related to the subject?


Because I asked. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Because I asked. :rolleyes:
Well, since you asked.

Between wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Dog Brothers, BJJ, submission grappling, and assorted and miscellaneous other stuff, I've probably had over 250 matches thoughout the years. I probably remember the names of less than 20 of the people I have gone against and those I remember only because we are still in the same circles.

The last time I beat up a kung fu guy was probably 5 years ago when I was still a BJJ purple belt. So, in answer to your question, I have no idea what anyone's name was.

[Knifefighter]

Now back to the subject at hand:


My knee is about 60%. When I'm closer to 80% I'll just show up at your office. That should be in month or two. How about that?
.

Perfect.
I'll be here.

Ok then no more BS talk.

[Phil Redmond]

Just a quick comment. It is true you can't judge the TOTAL skill of any fighter when they are just movin around together on a video, but you can tell to a point what kind of skills are present in people involved. Now, IMO the WC guy didn't really show quality skills just for the fact that whenever Dale came at him his shoulders raised up and he retreated when ever he was attacked. How do you defend yourself when you are retreating all the time (this is the video where him and Dale are stand up fighting only, not the grappling one)? His hands where way to far out there, how do you generate power when your arms are already fully exteneded. Now, on the contrary I've seen clips of GM Cheung light sparring with a boxer, similar to this situation, and he didn't retreat and did counter the attacks (although I don't fully agree on his followup methods, on the clips he keep on trying to blindside the guy instead of just coming in forward with his counter, but to each their own) his boxing opponent used against him. The was a BIG difference in skills here.

Plus, if this was supposed to be just a lite sparring slap happy session, why did Rushun (sp?) make that note about his Sifu not wanting him to hurt this JJ guy?

James
The nitpicking begins. You see James, that's why I didn't want to post any clips.
I thought that your visit to Sifu Lam's taught you some Mo Duk. The end result of a fight is what determines the winner. Why are WC people so nitpicky? Nitpicking about some one's shoulders being up has nothing to do with REAL fighting. Rahsun has been doing that since I first taught him when he was a young teenager and he has fought that way succesfully for real. Also, you CAN generate power with your arms extended. I've seen him fight for real in Ft. Greene Park in Brooklyn MANY times. He CAN handle himself. To avoid this type of nitpicking by people who don't show videos of themselves against non-cooperating opponents I visit another WC group for fighters only. Everyone there SHARES, not criticizes. BTW, Dale is a member.
PR

[Knifefighter]

There will be no back pedalling.
I'm betting it will be the old, well I'm still getting over knee surgery excuse.

[The Xia]

Kung fu teachers of any worth are known and public.
That isn't necessarily true.

[Knifefighter]

Just a quick comment. It is true you can't judge the TOTAL skill of any fighter when they are just movin around together on a video, but you can tell to a point what kind of skills are present in people involved. Now, IMO the WC guy didn't really show quality skills just for the fact that whenever Dale came at him his shoulders raised up and he retreated when ever he was attacked. How do you defend yourself when you are retreating all the time (this is the video where him and Dale are stand up fighting only, not the grappling one)? His hands where way to far out there, how do you generate power when your arms are already fully exteneded.
James-

Why don't you go back and read over my posts where I explained what we were doing?

Maybe then you will understand why what he was doing was actually quite effective and a good technical choice for our purposes that day.

If you still don't get it, I'll make a friendly offer to you. Next time you are here, let's get together and play spar at that same level of intensity and work the same things that Rahsun and I were working. I'm betting the approach you are advocating will not be as effective as what he was doing. After I take you down about 769876564956 times (in a friendly manner), if you still don't understand, I will explain it to you in technical terms.

[Wayfaring]

You guys are frickin' hilarious. That was like a slap-fight video with range work only. KF has hand movement / footwork that looks like a lot of MT / Mo Smith kickboxing type flow. Rahsad has the typical TWC track center move & flanking setup. KF had a double, moved to side control, n/s then backed off. Like I said - slap-fighting mostly for range work measurement / movement with light takedown work.

You really can't tell jack about either person in that video, skill level wise or training - maybe a little on categorizing movement and ranges which is all they were working on. Everyone's getting all an@l retentive and picking at skill levels - ha!

I'd show up and spar either one of them. Without the angst - just because it would be pretty frickin' fun.

But I guess part of this thread is karma coming back around to slap KF upside the head for getting caught on camera "going lite" after all the flack he's provided on wing chun videos even if its true most schools don't spar hard enough ever.

I'm sure people can work out together without all the "Int3rn3ts d3@th m@tch g0ng s@u" mentality.

[Flying-Monkey]

I would be more than happy to have a more realistic and harder sparring session with any of those who are making criticisms. We can do a hard session that is more realistic and includes groundfighting. We can record and post it to compare and contrast my "technique" with yours.

Look. You are old. You shouldn't put open challenges on line. This tough guy thing does not impress me or most other posters. People pick fights on line then back out. You may or may not be this type of person. However, believe me. You would get chewed up by a young strong guy who is just a street fighter. He doesn't need to know CMA or MMA.

You could act tough and challenge me, but what do i have to gain from fighting you? I gain nothing for beating up an old man. I am sure I would not lose, but if I do for whatever reason, I have a lot to lose (like shaming my teachers and style).

I see this back and forth little girl baiting and arguing. You guys should be talking about this in PM and then a few weeks later say XXXXXX and I fought here is the video.

もういい！！！

[sihing]

James-

Why don't you go back and read over my posts where I explained what we were doing?

Maybe then you will understand why what he was doing was actually quite effective and a good technical choice for our purposes that day.

If you still don't get it, I'll make a friendly offer to you. Next time you are here, let's get together and play spar at that same level of intensity and work the same things that Rahsun and I were working. I'm betting the approach you are advocating will not be as effective as what he was doing. After I take you down about 769876564956 times (in a friendly manner), if you still don't understand, I will explain it to you in technical terms.

Thanks for the invite Dale, and when I am there next we will have to get together. I love learning something new, and I'm sure you can teach me plenty of things, I have no problem with that.

See you soon..:D

James

[sihing]

The nitpicking begins. You see James, that's why I didn't want to post any clips.
I thought that your visit to Sifu Lam's taught you some Mo Duk. The end result of a fight is what determines the winner. Why are WC people so nitpicky? Nitpicking about some one's shoulders being up has nothing to do with REAL fighting. Rahsun has been doing that since I first taught him when he was a young teenager and he has fought that way succesfully for real. Also, you CAN generate power with your arms extended. I've seen him fight for real in Ft. Greene Park in Brooklyn MANY times. He CAN handle himself. To avoid this type of nitpicking by people who don't show videos of themselves against non-cooperating opponents I visit another WC group for fighters only. Everyone there SHARES, not criticizes. BTW, Dale is a member.
PR

Sorry if I offended you Phil, just some honest observations made by myself, that's all. Again, what I said is only my opinion. Maybe I know nothing about TWC, so what's to worry about ah? Like I said in my post though, I have seen GM Cheung on clips you have posted before on other sites demonstrating successfully how the TWC guy deals with the same type of attacks, so I am not putting your art down.

Regarding Rahsun, I am sure that he is capable of handling himself, I just noticed a few things that I thought for a guy with years of experience would not be demonstrating, that's all. If his method of execution works for him then great, I wish him all the best in the future.

As for what I learned while in LA, it is all in the thread, but for the most part I learned what some call "scary Wing Chun". Most all of the lessons where regarding effective application of the art with proper body mechanics and structure. Since this was my first exposure to this art most everything I learned was at a basic level of the cirriculum, so I'm no expert in it. But I continually strive to get better everyday. As for Mo Duk, I believe I have demonstrated that to plenty of people over the years to those that know me the best, so feel free to believe what you like.

Cheers Phil..

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

James:

How could you possibly compare the vid of William Cheung against the boxer (also someone that Phil and I know for many years - as he was a one time student of our other partner here in NYC back in the 80s - Sonny Whitmore)...

how can you compare that to the Dale/Rahsun vids?

The boxer was wearing boxing gloves (Grandmaster Cheung was not)...and there was no attempt to clinch or go for a takedown.

As for Rahsun's shoulders being "up"...so what?

As for his arms being extended against a smaller man who's trying to get to clinch range - as Dale said: a very smart strategy.

You need to get with it, man. :rolleyes:

[yenhoi]

lol @ Sifu Abel making threats.

This must be related to the twice annual boxer rebellion re-enactment - afterwards, sifu abel cools his chops by trying to bully KF.

Its a good show for the KFM newcomers AND the old.

hah!

:eek:

[Knifefighter]

Look. You are old.
Yes... very old and very creaky.


However, believe me. You would get chewed up by a young strong guy who is just a street fighter. He doesn't need to know CMA or MMA.
You could act tough and challenge me, but what do i have to gain from fighting you? I gain nothing for beating up an old man. I am sure I would not lose, but if I do for whatever reason, I have a lot to lose (like shaming my teachers and style).

But your teacher and other old kung fu "masters" would easily handle the young, strong street fighters.

Bwhahahahahaha!!!!

[Flying-Monkey]

Yes... very old and very creaky.



But your teacher and other old kung fu "masters" would easily handle the young, strong street fighters.

Bwhahahahahaha!!!!

I am not trying to be funny. I am not trying to be a tough guy. I am just tired of the bull.


My signg is 75 years old. His spirit is strong but he is 75 years old.

[Knifefighter]

I am not trying to be a tough guy..
Actually, neither am I. I am just calling the keyboard warriers on their "analysis"... just a simple sparring session so we can record, post and "analyze" their abilities or lack thereof.

However, nobody has to spar with me if it is beneath them. Since you are worried about beating up on old guys, maybe you could just post some clips of your typical sparring instead.

[SevenStar]

My signg is 75 years old. His spirit is strong but he is 75 years old.


Naturally, a young, tough streetfighter would beat him too, right?

[SifuAbel]

The last time I beat up a kung fu guy was probably 5 years ago when I was still a BJJ purple belt. So, in answer to your question, I have no idea what anyone's name was.

I find it funny now. You can't remember. :rolleyes: Yet its been your battle cry for years. "I beat kung fu teachers". Even back then you couldn't say who it was. I'm calling BS on you.



BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

If you haven't gathered the gist of the thread yet, its that you are a giant hypocrite. (I know, to call him a giant is an oxymoron.)







YenBoi,

You must have clicked the wrong link. Nobody here cares about bullshido events. Now go back to licking neal's tally wacker.

[Flying-Monkey]

Naturally, a young, tough streetfighter would beat him too, right?

What do you think? I am not in the fantasy world of the Shaw brothers.

[SevenStar]

glad to hear that.

[rogue]

Why the hell is Abel gloating? As far as I can tell he's just made fun of KF's height, age and voice but still hasn't met up with him.
If that's the new standard we're going by I'll declare myself the victor over 7* since I made fun of his street cred once or twice. Of course I will now have to avoid being anywhere within 253 miles of him as it would be incredibly embarrassing for me to be stuffed into a garbage can by a guy wearing Spock ears and a Clay Aiken t-shirt.;)

[Knifefighter]

If you haven't gathered the gist of the thread yet, its that you are a giant hypocrite.
I guess we'll find out who the BS artist is when you show up for your sparring lesson.

[rogue]

You'll be sorry KF when he calls you a doody head and starts with the momma jokes.

[Flying-Monkey]

However, nobody has to spar with me if it is beneath them. Since you are worried about beating up on old guys, maybe you could just post some clips of your typical sparring instead.

I am not stating it is beneath me. I am stating it is pointless. It is not because you are MMA. It would be the same for an old CMA master.

We do not spar outside our style. Before you think that is not good, you must remember that Sigung Chan Sau Chung produced many Knock 0ut artists from the late 60s to the early 80s. One reason you don't see them in pride or ufc or whatever is because 99% of his guys are very small (120-135lbs). I am the biggest guy in TSPK. Sigung wanted me to fight (180lbs), but i don't want to be a career fighter.

[The Xia]

Look, if you guys want to have a sparring session, fine, but can you leave out the insults? You have a set date and time to spar. I don't feel you need to insult and taunt each other back and forth until that time. I don't think this bickering back and forth on an internet forum impresses people either. Sure, some members may egg you two on, but I think that's because they see it as entertainment. I don't think people see you any tougher because you can type insults and taunts. I think that kind of chest beating loses its "cool" after high school. So perhaps you two should cease with the insults and taunts. I think that you'll gain more respect here doing that then continuing along this path.

[planetwc]

Dale,

If I am ever visiting in the area, I would love to hook up with you and Ernie, etc.
It looks like you have the right attitude about friendly sharing.
And it would be a great opportunity to learn some new things.

Regards,

David Williams

[Knifefighter]

I am not stating it is beneath me. I am stating it is pointless. It is not because you are MMA. It would be the same for an old CMA master.

We do not spar outside our style. Before you think that is not good, you must remember that Sigung Chan Sau Chung produced many Knock 0ut artists from the late 60s to the early 80s. One reason you don't see them in pride or ufc or whatever is because 99% of his guys are very small (120-135lbs). I am the biggest guy in TSPK. Sigung wanted me to fight (180lbs), but i don't want to be a career fighter.

Uh... let's see. You live in a little bubble world where you don't spar outside your style, so you have never gone against an older MMA guy.

But you somehow "know" that you would beat him.

Typical kung fu BS.

[sihing]

James:

How could you possibly compare the vid of William Cheung against the boxer (also someone that Phil and I know for many years - as he was a one time student of our other partner here in NYC back in the 80s - Sonny Whitmore)...

how can you compare that to the Dale/Rahsun vids?

The boxer was wearing boxing gloves (Grandmaster Cheung was not)...and there was no attempt to clinch or go for a takedown.

As for Rahsun's shoulders being "up"...so what?

As for his arms being extended against a smaller man who's trying to get to clinch range - as Dale said: a very smart strategy.

You need to get with it, man. :rolleyes:

Hey Vic,

I guess all I can say is to each there own.;)

From what I understand shoulders up is not a good thing, it denotes tension in the upper body, tensing up is not a good thing in a fight from my limited understanding . Good Wing Chun comes from the ground up, with the elbows down and shoulders relaxed. Also with the arms outstretched and always retreating, how is that a Wing Chun concept in application? Does one have to train for years to learn that? Most people do that anyways without any training, arms up and retreat backwards. My point was that someone with some experience wouldn't be demonstrating that sort of behavior, especially when the session was not very intense. In my book your wide open for a kick to the mid section or low part of the body when you constantly raise your hands up and retreat upon being attacked. But that's just me, whatta I know ah..:p

Now in the second video with stand up only, IMO there wasn't much difference between the scenerios demonstrated by Cheung vs. the Boxer and Rahsun vs Dale. Both WC practitioners faced people throwing jabs and hook/crosses. The second video didn't include any takedowns from what I observed, that was mostly in the first video. Plus there is a video of Cheung with the boxer, and neither of them have gloves on (it looks like it was filmed on a roof). I'll post it on youtube for you to see. Also if you observe, Cheungs hands are NOT extended way out, but more close in to his body, while still protecting his centerline. I bit more wiser IMO.

It's just an observation from myself. Of course I realize that not all will agree with it and that's okay. I thought the idea behind this forum was to discuss things. A video was posted, and if Rahsun didn't want this to be public then he shouldn't have posted it on Myspace. I saw it and thought I recognized Dale and asked him if that was him. I observed somethings that I thought were incorrect application of TWC, it's only my opinion and I think I have a right to state it. I don't really think I was nitpicking because I noticed a FEW things wrong, not just something small and insignifigant. Wing Chun applicaton IMO is very specific, and since he was definetly fighting in a WC posture, trying to apply WC concepts I thought I would comment on it. I have video's out there as well that don't look to hot either. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-e3a2tw90 , here's the vid of Cheung and the boxer, both with no gloves on, doing basically the samethings as Dale and Rahsun. A much better demonstration I think..

Peace

James

[Knifefighter]

Now in the second video with stand up only, IMO there wasn't much difference between the scenerios demonstrated by Cheung vs. the Boxer and Rahsun vs Dale. Both WC practitioners faced people throwing jabs and hook/crosses. The second video didn't include any takedowns from what I observed, that was mostly in the first video.
Not the same at all.

In each of our sessions, we were still working on me getting into clinch/takedown range and him keeping me outside.

In the clip you posted the boxer was not trying to get into that range. If anything, the boxer was working to keep the WC fighter outside.

[David Jamieson]

Where can he men get the clay aiken shirts?

i have spock ears already. :D

[Knifefighter]

Also with the arms outstretched and always retreating, how is that a Wing Chun concept in application?
Arms out with lateral/back movement is precisely the thing that made it hard for me to get into clinch/takedown range. I don't know if it is a WC concept (are WC guys not allowed to use non-WC concepts?), but it is a great way to keep a grappler from getting close... in wrestling we used to call it stalling, but I tend to think of it as "anti-grappling" at its finest.

In the clip where I got the takedown, he attacked with forward energy, which is what set up the takedown for me.

[Flying-Monkey]

Uh... let's see. You live in a little bubble world where you don't spar outside your style, so you have never gone against an older MMA guy.

But you somehow "know" that you would beat him.

Typical kung fu BS.

You don't know what you are talking about. I wrote that I don't spar outside of my style. I didn't state that I didn't FIGHT outside of my style. Yes, I have fought MMAists before. I went through them. I don't mention this is every MMA thread, because there is no proof of this. If you want to fight, I am cool with it. I don't make excuses. I will fight if I am injured or if my car won't start or if a family member dies. I would be even more p!ss if I had to fight a clown when I would rather be with my family in such a situation.

Is this a challenge? No. I am in Japan and you are in America. I am just telling you how it is.

[Knifefighter]

You don't know what you are talking about. I wrote that I don't spar outside of my style. I didn't state that I didn't FIGHT outside of my style.

What would be the rationale for fighting outside one's style but only sparring people who train the same style?

[Flying-Monkey]

What would be the rationale for fighting outside one's style but only sparring people who train the same style?

We don't want to spar with someone outside our style and get in the situation where there are a lot of would of could of should of. The main reason we train is for self defense. We don't train to be cage fighters. We had some career fighters, they entered K1 style matches. Plus, it is our tradition. If you question our kung fu, feel free to look me up when i get back. If you think TSPK is no good, I would be more then happy to show you.

To be honest, I don't know why you waste your time in a kung fu forum.

[Knifefighter]

We don't want to spar with someone outside our style and get in the situation where there are a lot of would of could of should of. .
Fair enough. Do you have any clips of your sparring?


The main reason we train is for self defense. .
How does your training differ from "non self-defense" training?


feel free to look me up when i get back. .
Where are you from?



To be honest, I don't know why you waste your time in a kung fu forum.
Mostly entertainment value... but sometimes I learn a thing or two.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
Arms out with lateral/back movement is precisely the thing that made it hard for me to get into clinch/takedown range. I don't know if it is a WC concept (are WC guys not allowed to use non-WC concepts?), but it is a great way to keep a grappler from getting close...
Exactly what you said that day Dale. It's one way TWC uses to keep a grappler at bay.

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
. . in wrestling we used to call it stalling, . . .
Thanks Dale. I never knew that.

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
. . . but I tend to think of it as "anti-grappling" at its finest.
So it seems that the outstrectched arms do serve a purpose. ;)

[Knifefighter]

So it seems that the outstrectched arms do serve a purpose. ;)
Muay Thai uses a more "outstretched" arm approach to quite good effect. I think outstretched arms can serve a variety of purposes.

[SifuAbel]

You know, its hard take all your puffer fish chest thumping seriously when I hear it all in my head in that pippy longstocking - Jackie Stewart(jokckey) voice of yours. Its like a munchkin getting a role in Pulp Fiction.

Imagine if you will, Sam Jackson doing the whole movie on helium. Laugh riot.

[SifuAbel]

I guess we'll find out who the BS artist is when you show up for your sparring lesson.


You do realize that you being a hypocrite isn't directly connected to your "skill". :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

So is it safe to say that I would be the first kung fu teacher you've fought? yes? no?

[SevenStar]

Why the hell is Abel gloating? As far as I can tell he's just made fun of KF's height, age and voice but still hasn't met up with him.
If that's the new standard we're going by I'll declare myself the victor over 7* since I made fun of his street cred once or twice. Of course I will now have to avoid being anywhere within 253 miles of him as it would be incredibly embarrassing for me to be stuffed into a garbage can by a guy wearing Spock ears and a Clay Aiken t-shirt.;)


what's wrong with being a clay aiken fan? Dammn.... I bet I lost more street cred for that...

[Yum Cha]

I agree with Knife and Phil on the outstretched arm thing, however reluctantly, because it took me a long time to discover and bring into play.

There's a lot more to it than just putting your arms out, you need good sense of center of gravity, short power to arm the weapons and mobility.

[Wayfaring]

Arms out with lateral/back movement is precisely the thing that made it hard for me to get into clinch/takedown range. I don't know if it is a WC concept (are WC guys not allowed to use non-WC concepts?), but it is a great way to keep a grappler from getting close... in wrestling we used to call it stalling, but I tend to think of it as "anti-grappling" at its finest.

In the clip where I got the takedown, he attacked with forward energy, which is what set up the takedown for me.

2 questions:

1) Did you work towards any arm drag to taking the back techniques? Set up by jabs or whatever but working off the outstretched arm?

2) Did he sprawl ever? Or was he unfamiliar with that?

[Knifefighter]

1) Did you work towards any arm drag to taking the back techniques?
I use arm drags in a majority of my grappling takedowns. Arm drags generally require the opponents arm to be at the same level or lower than yours. Since he was taller and kept his arms high, arm drags weren't much of an option. Arms drags also generally don't lend themselves to striking situations unless you can get some kind of tie up.



Set up by jabs or whatever but working off the outstretched arm?
Yes, but the backwards/lateral defensive mobility generally negates this, especially if the opponent is bigger.


2) Did he sprawl ever? Or was he unfamiliar with that?
I believe he had no grappling experience. He didn't sprawl, but he did have a pretty good instinctive defense to the low single.

[Faruq]

No wonder you never posted a clip of yourself! LOL 11 pages of any and everyone tearing into you, your fashion sense and your technique!


I use arm drags in a majority of my grappling takedowns. Arm drags generally require the opponents arm to be at the same level or lower than yours. Since he was taller and kept his arms high, arm drags weren't much of an option. Arms drags also generally don't lend themselves to striking situations unless you can get some kind of tie up.



Yes, but the backwards/lateral defensive mobility generally negates this, especially if the opponent is bigger.


I believe he had no grappling experience. He didn't sprawl, but he did have a pretty good instinctive defense to the low single.

[Knifefighter]

Set up by jabs or whatever but working off the outstretched arm?

Yes, but the backwards/lateral defensive mobility generally negates this, especially if the opponent is bigger.
That being said, if I remember correctly, that is pretty much what I used to get the other takedowns that were not shown.

[WinterPalm]

From a grown man to boot!

I cannot come and spar you for several reasons.

1.) My hands are registered lethal weapons in California...look it up if you doubt me.

2.) My strikes are likened to human rights violations when they land (and they never miss, just watch Hiroshima).

3.) My techniques are considered WMD's. So if I came to LA the mere use of my techniques would be considered a use of WMD's which is illegal. Also, because I am a Canadian citizen it would be considered an act of war to use said WMD's in America...and it would be sad to see our military decimate America for the upteenth time.:D

In all fairness, I was only interested in poking at your ignorant comments. You say you didn't post that video claiming it was the legit MMA you actually do. Well when you ragged on the clips on my Sifu's site, which weren't claiming anything but illustrations of techniques, you freaked out. I knew immediately from watching the video that they weren't a good sparring session but a practice...but hey, most people practice and have full out hard sparring not a daily thing lest they cover themselves in layers upon layers of padding!

Your double standards know no boundaries. Arguments and conversation are one thing, but outright ignorance and maliciousness are something completely different.
But you have your agenda...

[SifuAbel]

In all fairness, I was only interested in poking at your ignorant comments. You say you didn't post that video claiming it was the legit MMA you actually do. Well when you ragged on the clips on my Sifu's site, which weren't claiming anything but illustrations of techniques, you freaked out. I knew immediately from watching the video that they weren't a good sparring session but a practice...but hey, most people practice and have full out hard sparring not a daily thing lest they cover themselves in layers upon layers of padding!

Your double standards know no boundaries. Arguments and conversation are one thing, but outright ignorance and maliciousness are something completely different.
But you have your agenda...


...............................

[SifuAbel]

So is it safe to say that I would be the first kung fu teacher you've fought? yes? no?


well?............... :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

From a grown man to boot!

I cannot come and spar you for several reasons.

1.) My hands are registered lethal weapons in California...look it up if you doubt me.

2.) My strikes are likened to human rights violations when they land (and they never miss, just watch Hiroshima).

3.) My techniques are considered WMD's. So if I came to LA the mere use of my techniques would be considered a use of WMD's which is illegal. Also, because I am a Canadian citizen it would be considered an act of war to use said WMD's in America...and it would be sad to see our military decimate America for the upteenth time.:D

BEST POST OF THE YEAR!