CMAists, Do you fight?

[SifuAbel]

The question that has been coming up lately is that 90% of CMA schools are crap in america because they don't fight. Is this true? Do you fight? Do you fight with contact? Let us know. Lets get a sense of what you do. This poll is for people in CMA schools. If you don't fight in them either don't reply or answer no.

Post a little something too, keep this poll up on the board.

[Rockwood]

I never "fight" but I do spar. Spar with various kinds of protective gear, with a reasonable mindset not to hurt my partner unneccesarily. All stand up, I don't know grappling so I don't mess with anything after throw, trip or knockdown.
-Jess O

[Faruq]

I had my last fight when I was 12. Since then I've ended all threats through selling wolf tickets, playing the tough role, and on the rare occasions none of that work, I'd apologize. So I've been lucky I guess, and the fact that I never look for trouble has to have gone a long way toward keeping me out of fights.

[GeneChing]

I don't fight in normal sparring situations, so the concept of hard contact, point sparring, etc. doesn't really apply. I do psychiatric interventions. These are in real world environments so there are no rules. I suggest you widen your perspective on how to apply CMA. If you're just looking at sparring, that's pretty limited.

[wiz cool c]

I do Shuai Jiao now I just can't take all the dancing stuff. In Shuai Jiao we spar every lesson. I still practice Tai Chi and Bagua on my own for health and fitness. I love competitive push hands but there just aren't enough people doing it to take it seriously.

[Knifefighter]

I don't fight in normal sparring situations, so the concept of hard contact, point sparring, etc. doesn't really apply. I do psychiatric interventions. These are in real world environments so there are no rules. I suggest you widen your perspective on how to apply CMA. If you're just looking at sparring, that's pretty limited.
Gene-
Can you give some specific examples of the types of physical altercations that occur in these situations and the specific CMA tactics and/or techniques you are using?

What things have you found to work the best and what things, if any, have you thrown out or evolved for these situations?

[lkfmdc]

I do psychiatric interventions



Never knew that Gene!

Good training for running this BBS :D

Cheers

[David Jamieson]

I'll jump in for just a second, but I can't partiipate in the poll because im not a member of anyones school, however, I have worked door for a couple of places, one more upscale, the other a bit more dreggy.

upscale place required "quiet removal" of unruly patrons. This required methods of control that I got from traditional martial arts. Generally Chin Na type stuff.

the more dreggy joint required a little bit more oomph. Pins, holds and dial the phone stuff sometimes :p

For EMS guys, they would do well to do restrain and contain drawn from wherever, I think there's a lot of Chin Na techs that are gentle but can provide the level of control required.

same goes for Leos and other like professions. Not that they can't get useful stuff elsewhere, just saying that I think the stuff within trad materials is more than sufficient.

[Fu-Pow]

Was for a while there but my body started falling apart. I may post a fight clip from this summer at some point.

FP

[SifuAbel]

I don't fight in normal sparring situations, so the concept of hard contact, point sparring, etc. doesn't really apply. I do psychiatric interventions. These are in real world environments so there are no rules. I suggest you widen your perspective on how to apply CMA. If you're just looking at sparring, that's pretty limited.


Since I can't change my poll questions, why don't you do your admin magic and add the relevant additions. :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

I'll jump in for just a second, but I can't partiipate in the poll because im not a member of anyones school,

Then just post whether your school, at the time, fought.

[SevenStar]

Since I can't change my poll questions, why don't you do your admin magic and add the relevant additions. :rolleyes:


I tried, but I can't edit your poll, only your post.

FWIW, it's TMA guys that will also tell you that 95% of schools are crap, most likely due to more reasons than just lack of contact sparring - training methods, class length, focus of the classes, etc.

[SifuAbel]

Its also likely they say that because of school rivalry and stylistic bias. thats why I made this poll about contact fighting, not about whether the WC guy thinks the CLF guy is doing right by him.

[GeneChing]

Next year will mark my 20th year doing this kind of work. I work at concerts, events and street fairs, places where there are might be high incidences of peple under the influence. This weekend, I'll be working here (http://www.exoticeroticball.com/). ;) I specialize in inteventions with intense psychedelic reactions (IPRs) or what's commonly known as bad drug trips, but mostly what I deal with are belligerent drunks. I described one such encounter in my first Shaolin Tripse-zine column (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=469). I've done restraints on every intoxicant imaginable, from the dreaded angel duster, to patients that are clinically psychotic.

Patient scenarios range considerably. Sometimes it's one-on-one, but given our choice, we prefer to outnumber the patient, for obvious reasons. We use a four level protocol for restraint: verbal, physical, mechanical, chemical. What is of most interest to all of you here is physical.

So what works? Ironically, nothing I learned in sparring except the fundamental concepts of distance, timing, and velocity. I can't punch or kick the patient. That just doesn't make sense. No do I use painful restraint holds. I don't even use cuffs, only soft restraints. It's a totally different ball game when you're trying to take down a patient without hurting them. It's a lot more like tai chi, although I hesitate to say I use a lot of these techniques, since I don't really practice tai chi anymore. I do use qinna methods of course. I've also used some of the flowery stuff on occasion to distract the patient. That's pretty rare though, but it has worked, especially when I have a partner or two.

[SifuAbel]

:rolleyes: .......... no wonder......

[David Jamieson]

well, i'd like to abel, but they all did to varying degrees.

some competed regularly, some did not, all had sparring.

[SifuAbel]

Then vote yes and split the difference on the contact or better yet forget them and aswer for yourself, do you fight with contact.

[David Jamieson]

well...lol, yes and no.

more often, just light contact and very occaisionally this last year with medium to harder contact.

Regular hard contact fighting or competitive full contact fighting no.

see? I could pick at least two of your choices. :p

[mantis108]

I didn't vote because I think the poll is a bit flawed. :(

It looks like everybody is going to say they have hard contact in their training yet we have no way of proving that. Now, I am not accusing anybody of anything and of course we can assume that an honorary system is in effect but then what's the point of such a poll?

I think we need to rework the poll somewhat to reflect the real result. Just a thought.

Regards

Mantis108

[golden arhat]

in valetudo we fight no 2 ways about it we get angry we grapple we hit HARD we use the environment (floor, walls )
the only things we arent allowed to do is knee to the head or bollocks or elbow to the head as that tends to end a fight pretty quickly and we cant learn anything if we r unconscious
in wushu we dont fight but i work on technique ,speed and looking cool

[SevenStar]

bingo.....

[lkfmdc]

the poll needs to be edited to include "I only fight when I can wear shoes that pad my hip" :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

bingo.....

... was his name-o. No Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wu shu doesn't fight.

GA should have answered NO.

[SifuAbel]

I think we need to rework the poll somewhat to reflect the real result. Just a thought.

Regards

Mantis108

How then? What would you like to see as poll questions?

[SifuAbel]

the poll needs to be edited to include "I only fight when I can wear shoes that pad my hip" :rolleyes:


You're still concidered a TCMAists, kinda, why don't you vote? :p :rolleyes:

[Ravenshaw]

Back at the Wing Lam school (left for college), we had no sparring in class, but instead had a group that got together outside class to do it. I don't think there's any sparring there at all anymore, but I'm not sure. The sparring we did there ranged from learning to submit without harming to putting on the gloves and fighting full-contact san shou. The head instructor at the time was a former bouncer and had trainedf chin na with Shi De Cheng, Sun Jian Yun, and Wing Lam and also did some BJJ and MT, so we were mixing it up a bit in that "class."

When I did Wing Tsun (left for college), we sparred, but only light contact with a cup and knuckle padding. I may start up again at a new school that is a bit more intense in their fight training.

Some people count san shou as Cung does it as CMA, so if that's the case I spar hard contact in my san shou class.

I'm also training with Lai Hung right now, who is another BSL teacher, known for competitive fighting. I haven't started sparring there yet, but my understanding is that it is both light, unpadded sparring and padded full-contact sparring.

Anyway, I spar because it's fun. I'm a bouncer, so like Gene I'm not looking to claw anyone's eyes out or split someone's leg in two with a roundhouse.

[lkfmdc]

You're still concidered a TCMAists, kinda, why don't you vote? :p :rolleyes:


me? I'm just a sell out.... :cool:

[golden arhat]

No Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wu shu doesn't fight.

GA should have answered NO.

but i do fight just not in wushu
and valetudo (contrary to popular belief ) has some cma in it they call it mixed martial arts for a reason
my instructor used to do hung ga with master chu
so i voted yes 1 because i'm a cma practitioner and 2 because i fight
the question wasnt do u fight with cma or even do u fight with cma in class
it was do u fight

and i fight

[mantis108]

How then? What would you like to see as poll questions?

I think I would post a poll like this:

Do you spar with CMA in these formats?

1) street full contact - NHB groin, kick to head on ground, small joints all allowed. Absolutely no protective gears.
2) Specializedl sports full contact - Boxing, kick boxing, Muai Thai, Shan Shou, Judo, BJJ, Shuai Jiao, etc.
3) Hardcore sports full contact - Vale tudo, UFC (groin, small joints, kick to head on ground off limit), Pride, etc...
4) Vocational full contact - Policing, security, correctional, bouncing, etc.
5) semi contact - continuous sparring limited takedown with partial or full protective gears.
6) light contact - point sparring no takedown with partial or full protective gears.
7) None of the above

What do you think?

I would vote 3 in this case.

Regards

Mantis108

[Faruq]

If I could do this, I'd fight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko

[SifuAbel]

The point of this poll was to get a general consensus of those that fought at all.

1,2 and 3 are virtually the same for my purposes.

The poll was to see who DIDN'T fight. As we can see so far, many more do than don't.

If you wish you can make your own poll as to the type etc.

[golden arhat]

was awesome

[SifuAbel]

me? I'm just a sell out.... :cool:

Oh come now, we'll give you "special dispensation" for the sake of the poll.

All you Lama guys just go and vote yes. We know you fight. Don't be shy. :rolleyes:

[sunfist]

I hurt somebodies feelings once.

[bodhitree]

I just fought sanshou, but I'm not normally a cma'ist anymore.

[SifuAbel]

Ok , Ralphie, what CMA do you do? It says BJJ on your profile. :rolleyes:


I didn't know BJJ had sets. :rolleyes:


Adimins: is there a way to strike joke posters off this poll?

[SevenStar]

If I remember right, ralphie, like me, used to do CMA. He's likely referring to his past experience. I'm sure he's not joking.

[SevenStar]

The point of this poll was to get a general consensus of those that fought at all.

1,2 and 3 are virtually the same for my purposes.

The poll was to see who DIDN'T fight. As we can see so far, many more do than don't.

If you wish you can make your own poll as to the type etc.

I dunno man... I wouldn't put light contact in the same category, for any purpose. And then, there is the honesty factor. Which give me an idea...

[David Jamieson]

I would also add that what some would regard as light, others may regard as hard and what some may think of as hard and intense might be viewed as light.

Consider that a lot of people that do martial arts are there because they haven't been in a fight, don't know how to fight and want to and so on. ergo, they will not perceive the same things as those people with different experiences.

taking a bell ringer on the chin or a hamfist to the bridge of the nose is not something that happens in many ma classes tma, mma or otherwise.

most times it is medium contact.

full blast ktfo type of stuff isn't common outside of full blown competitions for a couple of reasons. Not the least of which is keeping injury to a minimum so that practice can continue instead of 1 practice session followed by 2 recuperation sessions. :p

These days, I like to wrestle more or include that range, we don't use elbows on each other, we try not to knee in clinches (except with light contact) and so on.

but we do drill these in mobility drill with the thai pads or time rounds on the heavy bag.
It doesn't make sense to knock your training partners around so hard that they can't continue regularly.

wear gear! wear your head gear, wear your mouthguard, wear your fingerlesses and wear a cup.

wear shinguards if you haven't roughed those babies up much and go easy on shovel kicks to each others knees, you can screw a guy up pretty bad with a solid kick to the knee.

and respect the tap when you're choking someone or barring the crap out of the arm or leg.

[lkfmdc]

seriously, no, I mean it, seriously, cut it out, seriously

the poll is a little flawed because if you are training to fight you train with varying degrees of contact... not all hard, not all soft, but a definite mix and cycling

You can wrestle a lot hard than you can box, and box harder than you can clinch and knee... work elbows and it becomes a slow dance... wrestling and bjj can be pretty much real speed, until a submission, and then, if you're smart, you go slow and don't snap anything....

look up some footage of training in Thailand camps, in competition these guys go very hard, in teh camp they almost play

so i can't put just one answer

[SifuAbel]

Leave it to CMAers to make arguements 1000% more complicated than they need to be.

I asked a simple set of questions. They don't have to be absolute. They don't have to be 100% of your training. If anything the questions denote the MAXIMUM of what you fight like.

Have you EVER fought with contact is enough. It doesn't matter that you fight light contact SOMETIMES.

Its REALLY simple people. If you do fight with hard contact say YES. If you NEVER fight with contact you say NO!!!!!

I gave a selection for light contact and for no contact. These are MAXIMUMS!!!

JUST ANSWER THE FRIKKIN QUESTIONS !!!

[lkfmdc]

JUST ANSWER THE FRIKKIN QUESTIONS !!!

maybe

when I feel like it

if I feel like it

probably tomorrow....:cool:

[SifuAbel]

:p .......

[TenTigers]

howz this?

"yeah."

[SifuAbel]

Thank you.

You see people,

Its.......

Not......

That.....

Hard.....

[SifuAbel]

So far the numbers are in favor of fighters with contact. What does this mean? That the notion that people in CMA don't fight and do forms all day isn't universal.

Does it mean everyone on the list is superman? No. It just means that the concept is over played and over used by detractors.

[lkfmdc]

I say if it isn't sledge hammers at 2 am at the land fill it shouldn't count

ADD THAT TO THE POLL, ADD THAT TO THE POLL

[SifuAbel]

LOL, I wish I could. But the poll is unalterable.

IOW, I don't know how if its possible.

[TenTigers]

hey Dave, I'm startin ta like you. You;re gettin funnier in your old age.

actually, I shouldn't say that, because then I wouldn't be considered impartial, and the whole "duel to the death" thingy will be called off.
-and I already spent a fortune in petticoats.

[lkfmdc]

hey Dave, I'm startin ta like you.



"starting"? you mean you didn't like me in the past? during our dinners at Wo Hop? During our AAU Chinese martial arts meetings? Oh, the horror, I feel cheap and used ;)

[SifuAbel]

You sl ut....

[TenTigers]

in all seriousness (dang, I hate that word) I've always felt you were a good guy.Honest, straightforward, and to your credit, I think that you have been nonstop in your promotion of TCMA since I have known you.

[B-Rad]

I just took Abel's advice to Dave earlier and answered for myself, which was no fighting, only forms... basically due to health and money issues. I'm previous two schools didn't have any kind of organized fighting officialy in their curriculums, but the some students did various kind of sparring outside of normal class (sometimes with the teacher watching/guiding, sometimes without). To tell the truth, all the CMA schools in my area (even the ones I don't like) have some kind of contact sparing going on, though it's not allways mandatory.

[lkfmdc]

You sl ut....

you never took me out for maduro :p

[SifuAbel]

I know, it was just cheap and quick. But thats the way you like it.


Oh the humanity!, oh the gender confusion!, Oi vey!. :o

[GreenCloudCLF]

This poll is flawed...if 83% of the people think they are fighting with hard contact, I think some people may not understand hard contact.

I selected hard contact because I am married to a Puerto Rican:eek: ...so it IS hard contact fighting....every night

[SifuAbel]

So far the numbers are in favor of fighters with contact. What does this mean? That the notion that people in CMA don't fight and do forms all day isn't universal.

Does it mean everyone on the list is superman? No. It just means that the concept is over played and over used by detractors.


Bump ttt........

[Fuzzly]

At my school it varies. I think it depends on who is there that day, and what they want to get out of it. The people who have to be at work in the morning may not want to go real heavy and without much protective gear. Noone really wants to wake up with welts and such all over.

Then there are the other people who want to get the combat aspect into the forground, and they want to do heavy contact.

And then there are....

Oops, I guess I can't answer a simple question. Maybe the question isn't that simple?


Oh, and to mess with your poll, we don't think of it as fighting, but playing. =)

[Anthony]

I don't know if this has been brought up but if it's under the roof of a school is it really "fighting." Most schools "spar" in one was or another depending on what they do. I was a member of a Karate school that focused on point sparring since the main instructor was a pro competitor at one point in his life. There was no "we do it all" type atmosphere. Trad. shotokan forms with tournament style sparring.

Anyway I don't think "fighting" is the correct term because it implies a "street fight." So, If you are fighting on a regular basis then something is seriously wrong with you.

[The Xia]

You're all wimps. My kwoon is tough. We only spar with chainsaws and If you make a mistake, sifu shoots you in the leg.

[SifuAbel]

.....with a spear gun.....and a rusty tip.

Please don't overcomplicate this with semantics. If you don't know what is meant by this poll then you are obviously in the "no" category.

Sparring/fighting/loud obssesive touching; whatever you want to call it. Ok?!

[Fuzzly]

.

Sparring/fighting/loud obssesive touching; whatever you want to call it. Ok?!


I'd call that a good party.

[SifuAbel]

Bump for further voting.

[NJM]

double post, my bad.

[NJM]

Full Contact all the way. A lot of lighter sparring, too.

[Oso]

******, got suckered in to an old ass poll...screw you Abel :)


but, yea, from the time I lay gasping and trying to pull my nutz out of my guts in July of '82 to this past weekend when a student of mine earned the priveledge (Sp?) of me whipping out some of my hung gar tiger on hizzazz :D :p it still works, btw.

[Knifefighter]

Let's make this a bit more of an objective poll.

Who can post a clip of their "full contact" fighting?

[SifuAbel]

Are you calling all these people liars?


AJM, bodhitree, ChoyLeeFat, cranky old man, DeLamar.J, EarthDragon, Flying-Monkey, Fu-Pow, ginosifu, golden arhat, Golden Arms, GreenCloudCLF, gwa sow, Liokault, lkfmdc, Lost Oath, MasterKiller, Mutant, n00b, NJM, Oso, Ravenshaw, Rockwood, shuaichiao, Sifu Darkfist, SifuAbel, SiuHung, Sow Choy, sunfist, TenTigers, Ultimatewingchun, Vajramusti, WinterPalm, xcakid, xSHoX

:rolleyes:

Is your clip supposed to be full contact?

[golden arhat]

i could probably get some footage of me fighting i'l try tomorrow or on saturday or sunday when i go training

[Knifefighter]

Are you calling all these people liars?


AJM, bodhitree, ChoyLeeFat, cranky old man, DeLamar.J, EarthDragon, Flying-Monkey, Fu-Pow, ginosifu, golden arhat, Golden Arms, GreenCloudCLF, gwa sow, Liokault, lkfmdc, Lost Oath, MasterKiller, Mutant, n00b, NJM, Oso, Ravenshaw, Rockwood, shuaichiao, Sifu Darkfist, SifuAbel, SiuHung, Sow Choy, sunfist, TenTigers, Ultimatewingchun, Vajramusti, WinterPalm, xcakid, xSHoX

Let's just say a lot of them probably don't go as hard as they think they do.


Is your clip supposed to be full contact?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwLFeIqjQ3Q

Yep.

[SifuAbel]

Let's just say a lot of them probably don't go as hard as they think they do.



Which ones? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Though I don't consider myself a CMA, I would like to add something for prosperity.

I have only been to 1 school in my area that did no sparring and 2 that did no "hard" contact, in terms of CMA that is.

I view the "degrees" of contact as such:

Sparring contact - what boxers do in the ring when they train
Hard contact - what boxers do in the ring when they compete
Full Contact - what boxers do when their ass is on the line.

Typically the majority of fighters Spar 80% of the time they "fight"maybe 90%, and do Hard contact ( competition) the remaining.
Unless you are a bouncer or something like that, the amount of real full contact as per the above is to minimal to count.

Sparring is going about 2/3 power, hard enough to hurt but not trying to KO.

Intent is the difference, and INTENsity.

[Knifefighter]

Which ones? :rolleyes:

I guess the clips would let us see that, wouldn't they?

[Knifefighter]

Sparring contact - what boxers do in the ring when they train
Hard contact - what boxers do in the ring when they compete
Full Contact - what boxers do when their ass is on the line..

I'm guessing you've never trained in a boxing gym or done any kind of boxing competition.

[golden arhat]

i think a better name for this poll should be

"MAists do u fight with cma"

as opposed to cmaists do u fight

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm guessing you've never trained in a boxing gym or done any kind of boxing competition.

Now THAT must be the funniest thing I have heard yet.

Sully's gym in Toronto, look it up.

[SifuAbel]

I guess the clips would let us see that, wouldn't they?


Your clip doesn't show any spectacular amounts of contact. It doesn't even show much in the way of repercussion for your impacts. Full contact? meh. More like token slapping to get to the grappling.

[SifuAbel]

Now THAT must be the funniest thing I have heard yet.

Sully's gym in Toronto, look it up.

Don't sweat it, Paul. Dale here loves to play king of the mountain, even if its only on a speed bump.

Its always, "I iz da 3l33t, You iz not da 3l33t." when disagreed with. Even though some of those he disagrees with tend to be experienced fighters like yourself.

In his view he is part of an elite race of cyborg superhumans that were created by the military. They have been endowed with special abilities far beyond those of us mere "natural borns" as they call us.

Oh well, you'll get used to the "but surely" tactic, as have we all. You'll just tune it out, eventually.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, I understand.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[WinterPalm]

Sifu Able for moderator!

[SifuAbel]

Only if you spell my name right.

[golden arhat]

heres me

absolutely terrible

but here

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1576679443752377808
i'm in the shorts

[lkfmdc]

This 17 second, poor quality clip, is actually just us screwing around with our new MMA gloves :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb6Cth5MhsQ

They cut it off before I got guard and the arm bar :mad:

[BentMonk]

I have fought with full contact in an exhibition MMA match at the '06 Arnold. It was with an amputee MMA fighter named Ron Mann. The way that the judges scored the bout, I won. IMO it was a draw that could have been a loss for me if time had not expired. Our school spars with varying degrees of contact based on what you're looking for. If both partners agree we go about 85% contact. We try to actually use CMA techniques and not just punch and kick each other. Lots of fun. :D

[Knifefighter]

Its always, "I iz da 3l33t, You iz not da 3l33t." when disagreed with. Even though some of those he disagrees with tend to be experienced fighters like yourself.

No, it's more about inexperienced people making dumba$$ remarks such as boxers not fighting full contact in competitions. Last time I checked, the goal of boxing is to knock the opponent out. Enter a local amateur boxing tourney and see how long you last not going full contact.

[Knifefighter]

Your clip doesn't show any spectacular amounts of contact. It doesn't even show much in the way of repercussion for your impacts. Full contact? meh. More like token slapping to get to the grappling.

MMA fighting is not the movies. Get in the cage and out of your pretend fantasies and then come back and tell me about impact repurcussions. :rolleyes:

[drleungjohn]

You could be called a theoretical non fighter and clueless liar soon-maybe even a BS'er, by our resident expert on all things combative-I really enjoy Knifefighters' commercial,that he put together himself-and on you tube as proof of his prowess--while it's true I don't have a video clip of me fighting-and I am sure he will have comments about that-most of us don't-and don't feel the need to make one or post one to prove anything to anybody--

[cjurakpt]

This 17 second, poor quality clip, is actually just us screwing around with our new MMA gloves :D


oh, sure "screwing around with our new MMA gloves" - is that what you're calling it these days?

who's your "friend" Dave? you guys sure seem close... :mad:

how come you never return my calls anymore?:(

[lkfmdc]

oh, sure "screwing around with our new MMA gloves" - is that what you're calling it these days?

who's your "friend" Dave? you guys sure seem close... :mad:

how come you never return my calls anymore?:(

in all seriousness, what number are you calling???

[WinterPalm]

No, it's more about inexperienced people making dumba$$ remarks such as boxers not fighting full contact in competitions. Last time I checked, the goal of boxing is to knock the opponent out. Enter a local amateur boxing tourney and see how long you last not going full contact.

A buddy fights amateur, he tells me they are told not to try and lay waste to the other guy...more like exhibition or intense sparring. He says once he reaches a certain level and goes open, then it is the KO. That is how his league does it anyway. I'm sure it is different elsewhere.

[cjurakpt]

in all seriousness, what number are you calling???

the one you gave me, the one you said to call anytime I needed to talk about my...problems...

and why do you pull your shades down now? it makes it very hard to see anything with the telefoto lens...

[WinterPalm]

Only if you spell my name right.

Who says I was talking about you?:D

[Knifefighter]

A buddy fights amateur, he tells me they are told not to try and lay waste to the other guy...more like exhibition or intense sparring. He says once he reaches a certain level and goes open, then it is the KO. That is how his league does it anyway. I'm sure it is different elsewhere.

Complete and utter B.S. The goal of all boxing competitions is to try to get a KO.

I have fought amateur Golden Gloves, amateur kickboxing, pro kickboxing and MMA. Never in any of these events did I nor my opponent ever try less than 100%.

People who think full contact competitions are anything less than all-out full contact, have never competed in these events.

[SifuAbel]

MMA fighting is not the movies. Get in the cage and out of your pretend fantasies and then come back and tell me about impact repurcussions. :rolleyes:

Blah blah blah. One only needs to see OTHER cage matches to note the difference.

I LOL @ the way nobody but you seems to have the goods. No matter what they've done. Keep dreaming.

[SifuAbel]

You could be called a theoretical non fighter and clueless liar soon-maybe even a BS'er, by our resident expert on all things combative-I really enjoy Knifefighters' commercial,that he put together himself-and on you tube as proof of his prowess--while it's true I don't have a video clip of me fighting-and I am sure he will have comments about that-most of us don't-and don't feel the need to make one or post one to prove anything to anybody--

Goodness me, gasp, I never thought of that.

Good LORD!! he might only give me Two Choices (http://unclebubby.com/wav/wav/TOONS/Dexter/2choices.wav)

[SifuAbel]

Who says I was talking about you?:D

Oh........ right...........that guy.;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Complete and utter B.S. The goal of all boxing competitions is to try to get a KO.

I have fought amateur Golden Gloves, amateur kickboxing, pro kickboxing and MMA. Never in any of these events did I nor my opponent ever try less than 100%.

People who think full contact competitions are anything less than all-out full contact, have never competed in these events.

Of course the goal is a KO, though they are rare for most, more so in AMAt. competiton, by the way my Amat. boxing record was 10-2 with 8 ko's, though I had quite a bit more "unsanctioned" matches.
My MT record was 4-0, with 3 kos and my semi-pro boxing record was 8-2 with 6KO's.
Considering I only did boxing to supplement my Kyokushin, I don't think that was bad at all.
I fought kyokushin at a time with NO weight divisions and then only under 200 and over 200 divisions.
I didn't really keep track of that stuff other than I won more than I lost.
That does not include my boxing matched while in the army.
My VT record was 3-2, 2 ko's and 1 submission.

Granted this is all "ancient history" for me, I think I have SOME notion of what is full contact.

I was also a bouncer at Monopoly nightclub in Hamilton and G-Spot in Toronto.

I know the difference between sport and street.

[WinterPalm]

Complete and utter B.S. The goal of all boxing competitions is to try to get a KO.

I have fought amateur Golden Gloves, amateur kickboxing, pro kickboxing and MMA. Never in any of these events did I nor my opponent ever try less than 100%.

People who think full contact competitions are anything less than all-out full contact, have never competed in these events.

I'm not BSing...just passing along what my buddy said. I thought it was weird, he says it is for beginners to fight but without simply brawling and allows them to get used to the pressure and adrenaline.

However, I'm sure YOUR events, and YOUR training were way better anyway!
No doubt when you make breakfast it is full contact, all-out!:D:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Full contact banking is also cool.

[SifuAbel]

Of course the goal is a KO, though they are rare for most, more so in AMAt. competiton, by the way my Amat. boxing record was 10-2 with 8 ko's, though I had quite a bit more "unsanctioned" matches.
My MT record was 4-0, with 3 kos and my semi-pro boxing record was 8-2 with 6KO's.
Considering I only did boxing to supplement my Kyokushin, I don't think that was bad at all.
I fought kyokushin at a time with NO weight divisions and then only under 200 and over 200 divisions.
I didn't really keep track of that stuff other than I won more than I lost.
That does not include my boxing matched while in the army.
My VT record was 3-2, 2 ko's and 1 submission.

Granted this is all "ancient history" for me, I think I have SOME notion of what is full contact.

I was also a bouncer at Monopoly nightclub in Hamilton and G-Spot in Toronto.

I know the difference between sport and street.

In other words, STFU!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Full contact banking is also cool.

Nothing compared to full contact chess, that **** is dangerous !
Imagine going home with one of those things stuck in an orifice !

[sanjuro_ronin]

In other words, STFU!!!

You are much more direct and eloquent than I.

[SifuAbel]

Rook to Queen's # two.

[Knifefighter]

Of course the goal is a KO, though they are rare for most, more so in AMAt. competiton, by the way my Amat. boxing record was 10-2 with 8 ko's, though I had quite a bit more "unsanctioned" matches.
My MT record was 4-0, with 3 kos and my semi-pro boxing record was 8-2 with 6KO's.

LOL!!!

Let's see... 17 KO's... all in matches that supposedly do less than full contact fighting.

Um, last time I checked, fighters don't fight at less than full conact when KO's are involved. You must have fought some pretty lame-@ss dudes if they were fighting at less than full contact while you were trying to knock them out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL!!!

Let's see... 17 KO's... all in matches that supposedly do less than full contact fighting.

Um, last time I checked, fighters don't fight at less than full conact when KO's are involved. You must have fought some pretty lame-@ss dudes if they were fighting at less than full contact while you were trying to knock them out.

You need to get out more.
You need to re-read my intial post.
You need to get a clue.

Or you are a bluthering idiot.

Either or...

Do you even understand what I wrote in my intial post?
Any of it?
At All ??

Intent, look it up, its the TRUE difference between hard contact and TRUE full contact.

[Knifefighter]

Intent, look it up, its the TRUE difference between hard contact and TRUE full contact.

LOL... you think the intent is different when you are trying to take someone's head off in the street vs. the ring? Sorry, no difference. I seriously doubt you fought competitive boxing or Kboxing.

[ingchao]

LOL... you think the intent is different when you are trying to take someone's head off in the street vs. the ring? Sorry, no difference. I seriously doubt you fought competitive boxing or Kboxing.


So, the ring is life or death?

Ever been in a brawl with MULTIPLE fights going on around you ( in a ring??)and then hear a bottle break? At that point there's a pyscho that could be running around cutting people. I've seen it happen.

There's the difference in intent.


Twist that up to fit YOUR experience.
And when was your last street fight? You talk alot about the reality fights you fight in, but have you ever grappled on the street, on actual pavement?

I have. don't forget to cut that from your response to my post.:D

[SifuAbel]

LOL... you think the intent is different when you are trying to take someone's head off in the street vs. the ring? Sorry, no difference. I seriously doubt you fought competitive boxing or Kboxing.I seriously doubt you have two brain cells to rub together. Although you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time rubbing something else.

Can't you find another tactic? This one is, like you, so old and boring.

This "pee-a-boo i don't see you" thing is tardy. Are you ever on time for anything?

I mean seriously, "i'm smart, you're stuuuuuuuupid." is for 3rd graders.

Its one thing to play the superior card with some noobie kid and quite another to play it with Ronin. Its makes you look very dumb.

This poll continues to grow away from your favor. Your response, "they are obviously lieing". How convenient.

As for the intent issue, you're a fruitcake psycho if you think both are the same.

[SifuAbel]

So, the ring is life or death?

Ever been in a brawl with MULTIPLE fights going on around you ( in a ring??)and then hear a bottle break? At that point there's a pyscho that could be running around cutting people. I've seen it happen.

There's the difference in intent.


Twist that up to fit YOUR experience.
And when was your last street fight? You talk alot about the reality fights you fight in, but have you ever grappled on the street, on actual pavement?

I have. don't forget to cut that from your response to my post.:D

oh no joo di-int...

Dale here is a veteran of 1000 to the death struggles. He has killed more men than heart disease. he once killed a man just see him die in another language.

[ingchao]

oh no joo di-int...

Dale here is a vetran of 1000 to the death struggles. He has killed more men than heart disaease. he once killed a man just see him die in another language.

So he's like the Chuck Norris of the MMA world?

And can we drop the MA from MMA and call it what it is? Mixed Fighting Styles.

Arts tend to be rounded, i.e. weapons and such.

Don't see that in MMA

Oh yeah, except Knifefighters' butter knife.

[Kung Pao]

I don't understand why kung fu guys insist on fighting so much. They seem to have this idea in their head about being professional fighters. They think sparring is weak or something. Well, professional fighters spar. Boxers spar. MMA fighters spar. They don't go full contact 24/7, and rarely do outside of their fights because they don't want to get injured...duh. I spar with some pro and amateur fighters. It's not what some of you think. They don't always call it sparring, but it is the exact equivalent. Hell, most of the time they're not aloud to get hit, and the other guy is just meat for punching, lol.

Message to all: your probably not a professional fighter. Stop trying to be one (to MMA guys as well). There's nothing wrong with being honest about it.

There's nothing wrong with sparring. It teaches you how to react to attacks in efficient manners. the MMA guys on here are ridiculous. I train with plenty of MMA guys. 90% are not pros. 40% of them can't fight worth a lick, and look down on TMA's, but after I beat them they say : "Well, you're an exception. You train against MMA." Well, honestly, it's not the MMA. It's the TMA.

Funny how much posturing goes on on this forum.

[WinterPalm]

Here's Knifefighter on a regular weekday when he's not on KFM forums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx6i090FGzQ

[SifuAbel]

Here's Knifefighter on a regular weekday when he's not on KFM forums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx6i090FGzQ

I don't know whether to cringe in disbelief or jump for joy.

[SifuAbel]

Funny how much posturing goes on on this forum.

Well, you need good posture to sit behind a keyboard.

[SifuAbel]

and look down on TMA's, but after I beat them they say : "Well, you're an exception. You train against MMA." Well, honestly, it's not the MMA. It's the TMA.


Because the McDojo-ization of MMA is coming to a full head of steam. The propaganda against TMA is set into each and every monthly paying dolt who walks in to any school in the country. Its the same propaganda that TMA has been swilling out for decades. They put you in front of a mirror and stroke you with lies about how deadly, and perfect. and superior you'll be over your fellow man. When in truth only a small percentage of the over all influx of students will have the time and perseverance to attain real talent.

[IronWeasel]

oh no joo di-int...

Dale here is a veteran of 1000 to the death struggles. He has killed more men than heart disease. he once killed a man just see him die in another language.


O man, that was funny!! I never laugh that hard early in the morning.

...die in another language...lol

[RonH]

You're all wimps. My kwoon is tough. We only spar with chainsaws and If you make a mistake, sifu shoots you in the leg.


Hahahahaha!

I chose with little contact because I don't see how excessive pain is a big help with fighting in CMA. You're lucky you don't screw up and accidently do major damage to someone. If it's energy center stimulation that you want, doing it with your mind is far more effective.

[David Jamieson]

undercard fighters invariably take it easier on each other in my experience. whether they are told to do so or not. it has more to do with lack of experience than anything.

just like when we say "sorry" all the freaking time when we spar early on.

sorry nothing, you tagging the guy you are doing it right. lol


otoh, yes head hunting and the k.o is the path and the goal of sportive combative. Except nowadays, the choke factor is coming in. The slam factor may make it's way in there yet, but spiking someone on the head can be fatal....probably best to keep that one on the rule books for now. :p

[Knifefighter]

undercard fighters invariably take it easier on each other in my experience. whether they are told to do so or not. it has more to do with lack of experience than anything.

Wrong... if anything, inexperienced fighters go so hard they get gassed too soon.




The slam factor may make it's way in there yet, but spiking someone on the head can be fatal....probably best to keep that one on the rule books for now. :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VUN6o_HW9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYaI-2PL5Ks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LYx6Mh86V4

Wasn't fatal in any of those.

[specialed]

Wrong... if anything, inexperienced fighters go so hard they get gassed too soon.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VUN6o_HW9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYaI-2PL5Ks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LYx6Mh86V4

Wasn't fatal in any of those.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoSFk4thj0s

This might not be fatal, but only because the fight gets stopped. Compare that to the "street". Knifefighter, you can play your mma vs. everything else game indefinately, but you know you're full of shiz.

[SevenStar]

So, the ring is life or death?

Ever been in a brawl with MULTIPLE fights going on around you ( in a ring??)and then hear a bottle break? At that point there's a pyscho that could be running around cutting people. I've seen it happen.

There's the difference in intent.


Twist that up to fit YOUR experience.
And when was your last street fight? You talk alot about the reality fights you fight in, but have you ever grappled on the street, on actual pavement?

I have. don't forget to cut that from your response to my post.:D

I have been bouncing in clubs for a few years now, so I am in the situations you speak of literally every week, several days per week. there is a difference between bouncing and sparring in class, but no difference between bouncing and competition. here is why I say that: when I have to put someone out who is resisting, I don't want them dead - unconscious gets the job done minus the jail sentence. tma tend to have the attitude that in the street they will have to kill someone, which they may or may not have the skill to do. I want to ko someone and end the altercation quickly. same techniques, same intent.

[SifuAbel]

Except, no gloves, no mats, no refs, no time limits, no escapes, no tap, no sportsmanship, I'm not saying sport isn't tough. But its not for keeps.

And NO, TMA doesn't depend on the kill to be effective. Thats as bad when you say it as when some TMA noobie **** says it. Don't disturb the ****.

[golden arhat]

Hahahahaha!

I chose with little contact because I don't see how excessive pain is a big help with fighting in CMA. You're lucky you don't screw up and accidently do major damage to someone. If it's energy center stimulation that you want, doing it with your mind is far more effective.

well see how far u get against a full contact fighter and measure it against how u do against those u train with

and the benefits become apparent

[SevenStar]

Except, no gloves, no mats, no refs, no time limits, no escapes, no tap, no sportsmanship, I'm not saying sport isn't tough. But its not for keeps.

And NO, TMA doesn't depend on the kill to be effective. Thats as bad when you say it as when some TMA noobie **** says it. Don't disturb the ****.

I don't disagree with your first statement, but that is not the issue here. they are talking about the intent, which is not different.

as for the second statement, several on this forum -xia comes to mind off the bat, since we recently discussed this - say tma train for the street and should be lethal. it has been stated on here many times that said mindset is what sets us apart.

[SifuAbel]

I don't disagree with your first statement, but that is not the issue here. they are talking about the intent, which is not different.

Define "intent" . Are you saying the intent of an opponent in the ring is the same as on the street? I'd better make sure my wallet is locked up safe before hand. :rolleyes:

[RonH]

well see how far u get against a full contact fighter and measure it against how u do against those u train with

and the benefits become apparent

I've done full contact fighting. I also had a neuro-muscular injury for several years that puts the equal amount of time of full contact fighting to shame. In my experience, full contact isn't necessary, but it depends more on the student's preference...not necessarily their needs.

[STUDD WILSON]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Man this is hillarious! Knifefighter after all these years is still banging away at the keyboard with the same old sad argumements. What's it been now six years since I last checked in? Only thing thats different is all the old psuedo-personalities that he used to use to try and appear that he's got tons of support don't seem to be coming to his aid. . Ha ha ha! Maybe he forgot his old passwords!? Or if they were real maybe they finally got laid? Anyway I left the States after spending about 3 years training in BJJ. I am currently now living and working as a teacher in Bangkok, Thailand and I am training in Muay Thai here at one of the biggest TB Gyms. How's that for full contact knifey?

[SevenStar]

Define "intent" . Are you saying the intent of an opponent in the ring is the same as on the street? I'd better make sure my wallet is locked up safe before hand. :rolleyes:

my intent, not his.

[Oso]

tma tend to have the attitude that in the street they will have to kill someone

i agree with your premise but not this statement. I've trained under 3 primary tma teachers over 25 years and not one of them had the attitude of killing to end the encounter. the first two most definitely had a 'incapaciate to escape' philosophy and PL most certainly does not focus on 'kill' techniques.

[ingchao]

I have been bouncing in clubs for a few years now, so I am in the situations you speak of literally every week, several days per week. there is a difference between bouncing and sparring in class, but no difference between bouncing and competition. here is why I say that: when I have to put someone out who is resisting, I don't want them dead - unconscious gets the job done minus the jail sentence. tma tend to have the attitude that in the street they will have to kill someone, which they may or may not have the skill to do. I want to ko someone and end the altercation quickly. same techniques, same intent.

I'm sorry, but I was asking Knifefighter.
I was talking about intent, Please read Carlos Castenada for a disertation of intent . I don't want anyone dead either.
B.S. Guns and knives are regularly pulled on bouncers in my neck of the woods.

NO difference beteween bouncing and competition? How many shots to the head have you taken?

You Are MORE than ILL qualified to moderate this forum. Good nite!:mad:


FLAME ON!!!!!

[SevenStar]

I'm sorry, but I was asking Knifefighter.
I was talking about intent, Please read Carlos Castenada for a disertation of intent . I don't want anyone dead either.
B.S. Guns and knives are regularly pulled on bouncers in my neck of the woods.

NO difference beteween bouncing and competition? How many shots to the head have you taken?

You Are MORE than ILL qualified to moderate this forum. Good nite!:mad:


FLAME ON!!!!!

I have been in situations with knives and broken bottles. regardless of how you think it should be, my intent is nodifferent than in competition -quickly render him unconscious. if that makes you mad, stick your head back up your ass and get off of discussion forums.

[PangQuan]

as far as bouncing goes. thats a highly situational/locational sensitive issue.

as someone bounces at a place for a good amount of time, they learn their crowd, they know the area and the people that generally attend the location. they learn their level of familiarity with thier job.

Sounds like Sevenstar just knows his crowd and has adapted his mindset to take care of business.

not all neighborhoods are the same.

that rambo movie looks cool. super violent, like when he shoots that guy with the
.60cal in the front of the jeep...or the throat deal...gotta see that one.


over all i think this thread is one of the most entertaining in a while.

BTW~ My level of contact varies as to what i have available / where i am training ATM.....but i personally like medium contact, though my doctor's chart on me might show to the contrary on occasion....

[drleungjohn]

How much time does knifefighter spend searching youtube clips to try and validate his points?

-and OH NO-Don't bring up fighting on concrete with him-that's what started the flame war on the Wing Chun forum!!!!

But I must say I feel really good that he does it to ANYBODY who challenges his belief system-and not just me...

Rambo clip-man,wtf happened to Sly's face??-I could validate it in the last Rocky with how many punches to the head -but Rambo??? And thank oodness he isn't taking his shirt off-true-his body looked awesome for a man his age in Rocky,but Rambo-???

[RonH]

Eating too much of the crap most people wouldn't think is edible? That has to do something.

[PangQuan]

How much time does knifefighter spend searching youtube clips to try and validate his points?

-and OH NO-Don't bring up fighting on concrete with him-that's what started the flame war on the Wing Chun forum!!!!

But I must say I feel really good that he does it to ANYBODY who challenges his belief system-and not just me...

Rambo clip-man,wtf happened to Sly's face??-I could validate it in the last Rocky with how many punches to the head -but Rambo??? And thank oodness he isn't taking his shirt off-true-his body looked awesome for a man his age in Rocky,but Rambo-???

SLY:

growth hormones dude

[sanjuro_ronin]

I won't bother to reply to KF, its pointless, he is as bad as the TMA form ferries that believe they are too dangerous to compete, perhaps worse cause he is on the opposite side: there is no difference between the ring and the street.

Both views are ridiculous.


As for intent, looking at mu profile: boxing, MT, judo, kyokushin, it is obvious I have NO issies with Sport MA, far from that.
I have been fighting in sport combat since I was 12.
I stopped be afraid of stepping into the ring along time ago, even when their were no weight divisions as was the case in kyokushin when I fought in the beginning.
There is a mutual respect between fighters in the ring, whatever ring it is.
We are there to win, NOT to hurt.
Hurting is the by-product of fighting in the ring, not the goal.
I have had good times with everyone I have fought in the ring aftewards, not so much in the street.

When I bounced I always took the other guys intent into account, when he simple tried to push and shove, when he threw some silly ass punch or when he came back with a machete as was the case once up in Hamilton at Monopoly.

While its commendable that SevenStar faced a near-death situation on the street with the same intent as stepping into the ring for a friendly match, I didn't, nor do I know anyone else that did.

I was afraid when bounced and they came back with a machete, or friends or a gun, I was afraid as a peacekeeper in Bosnia, and yes, when I was a kid before I experienced the threat of real world danger, I was afraid when I got into the ring.

Perhaps therein lies the difference, perhaps it is not intent ( though that is how I look at it),perhaps its is context and reference point.

[Knifefighter]

I won't bother to reply to KF, its pointless, he is as bad as the TMA form ferries that believe they are too dangerous to compete, perhaps worse cause he is on the opposite side: there is no difference between the ring and the street.

Of course there is a difference betweeen the street and the ring. My issue is not whether they are different, but, rather, with your statement that sporting competitions are less that full contact... sporting contests are always full contact with full intent.

The street, however, has many more variables. Sometimes one even goes much easier on the street than he would in competition.

To listen to the kung fu ferries, every encounter that happens on the street is filled with multiple opponents who are trying to kill you with knives and guns.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course there is a difference betweeen the street and the ring. My issue is not whether they are different, but, rather, with your statement that sporting competitions are less that full contact... sporting contests are always full contact with full intent.

The street, however, has many more variables. Sometimes one even goes much easier on the street than he would in competition.

To listen to the kung fu ferries, every encounter that happens on the street is filled with multiple opponents who are trying to kill you with knives and guns.


You really need to go back and try to UNDERSTAND what I wrote.
Or not.
I tried to be as clear as I could, if you didn't understand, there is nothing more I can say except this:
Full Intent in the ring and Full Intent when someone is trying to kill you is not and never will be, the same thing.
How many strikes do you through, in any given round, at FULL speed, Full Power with the Intent to seriously hurt your opponent?
Not beat him, not win the match, HURT him?

I don't know about you, but I never fought to HURT anyone in any of my sport combat matches, did people get hurt? of course.
Was it my intent to HURT them?
No, my intent was to win.

If you don't see how that makes a difference in regards to FULL contact, then there is nothing more I can say.

[hskwarrior]

so i guess the killing of fairtex's Alex Gong was a lie?

if these things don't happen, how was he killed?

he ran up on the guys window and the guy blasted him with one of those imaginary guns kf keeps talking about.


how is that some fairie kung fu guy story? i knew alex gong.

so what are you saying kf?

my student has both police and hospital records about his altercation with a group of guys using knives and screwdrivers.

but that never happened right? even with 100% proof that it did, but YOU won't believe that one would you?


bah humbug

[sanjuro_ronin]

so i guess the killing of fairtex's Alex Gong was a lie?

if these things don't happen, how was he killed?

he ran up on the guys window and the guy blasted him with one of those imaginary guns kf keeps talking about.


how is that some fairie kung fu guy story? i knew alex gong.

so what are you saying kf?

my student has both police and hospital records about his altercation with a group of guys using knives and screwdrivers.

but that never happened right? even with 100% proof that it did, but YOU won't believe that one would you?


bah humbug

No offense, but that has ZERO to do with that we are talking about.

[SifuAbel]

It kinda does, but that wasn't the purpose of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to shed light on those who actually fight with contact on this board.

This poll isn't about anything else. This poll isn't about ground fighting, street fighting, gun fighting etc etc.

The "kung fu people don't spar" claim has been risen to global stature. And taken to exteme heights by detractors (you know who you are). This poll shows that this isn't the case. People, at least on this board, do consider themselves as hard contact fighters.

Whether or not certain people believe this consideration is irrelevant since its an unvalidated and assumptive belief. The "everyone is lying" statement is a strawman argument.

[Knifefighter]

Whether or not certain people believe this consideration is irrelevant since its an unvalidated and assumptive belief. The "everyone is lying" statement is a strawman argument.

Don't you think it is a little strange that everyone claims to spar and fight hard, but 99% of CMA clips show forms, demonstrations or two man drills. (just check out the Video Compilation Reloaded thread for a perfect example of this). I think this is probably representative of how most people train.

[Knifefighter]

so i guess the killing of fairtex's Alex Gong was a lie?
if these things don't happen, how was he killed?
he ran up on the guys window and the guy blasted him with one of those imaginary guns kf keeps talking about.
how is that some fairie kung fu guy story? i knew alex gong.

Of course these things happen. However, most intelligent people who have been around the block a time or two know that not all street encounters are battles to the death.

[Knifefighter]

How many strikes do you through, in any given round, at FULL speed, Full Power with the Intent to seriously hurt your opponent?
Not beat him, not win the match, HURT him?

I'd say throwing a strike that is attempting to knock someone out is pretty much trying to hurt him.

And when I am applying an arm bar or choke, my intent is to break the arm or choke my opponent unconscious. The only difference in a sport match is that I stop when the opponent taps or the referee tells me to stop. If the opponent does not tap or the referee does not stop the match, his arm will be broken or he will be choked out.

[SifuAbel]

Don't you think it is a little strange that everyone claims to spar and fight hard, but 99% of CMA clips show forms, demonstrations or two man drills. (just check out the Video Compilation Reloaded thread for a perfect example of this). I think this is probably representative of how most people train.

Hmmmmmmm, clips demonstrating a style. How novel. :rolleyes:

Give it time. The level of vanity, and opportunity with a camera, will soon be on par with you.

[Knifefighter]

Hmmmmmmm, clips demonstrating a style. How novel. :rolleyes:

Give it time. The level of vanity, and opportunity with a camera, will soon be on par with you.

Clips are representative of what people do. Check out clips of BJJ, Judo, boxing, MT and wrestling and you will see a lot of sparring and competing. Check out clips of CMA and you will see that sparring is the exception, rather than the rule.

[RonH]

Don't you think it is a little strange that everyone claims to spar and fight hard, but 99% of CMA clips show forms, demonstrations or two man drills. (just check out the Video Compilation Reloaded thread for a perfect example of this). I think this is probably representative of how most people train.

It can seem strange, I know. Were I to teach someone taijiquan and they asked for help in readjusting how they move to be a better fighter, it'd have to depend on what it is that's the matter.

If they just aren't generating enough force when they punch/kick, I'd offer recommendations of chi cultivation. I'd tell them to work on developing how much chi they are currently generating and how much they could increase their chi generation to, as well as focusing the energy to different parts of their body at both their rest level and at their nonrest level of chi generation. Often, this would involve removing self-sabotaging behaviors/feelings that might be impeding their progress. This is definately something that wouldn't use full contact. It'd use completely zero physical contact.

If the question is body mechanics and/or how well their body flows like billowing smoke or rumbling water, they need to practice the forms. I would recommend starting with solo forms first to make sure that they are doing it properly by themselves. Going slow with the forms ensures proper deliberate movements of the correct ways and reinforces it greater in the mind of the user because of how much effort it takes to go slow. The next step would be going slow against someone else that's going slow to double check that it isn't something when going up against someone else. After slow with 2 people, I'd recommend less slow with 2 people, building up to fast with 2 people. After this, I'd suggest quiet examination of your body during meditation to see if your muscles aren't needlessly tensing up, robbing you of energy.

Given the number of thing that might go wrong, I'd suggest a thorough examination, like I described above, especially if I've never worked with them before and I wouldn't be surprised if I went to someone and they wanted me to do the same thing.

If it's precision in how and where you hit/kick, often these things use very small sections of the body and doing it for a long time each session for days at a time when you're focusing your skills can be painful, even when the one you're training with is inexperienced. So, practicing slow and then, quicker on a dummy is better before you go up against someone else.

Given what full on taiji requires, full contact is pretty much a nonissuse in my experience. I can't speak to Xing or Bag because I've never studied them, but I have analyzed things, like iron palm. Not only is it energy development, but it's structural development. Damaging the bones so there's more cells to make them tougher and making the skin less pliable (of course, using jow afterwards, but that's another discussion)...amongst other things. If you want to have that kind of physical structure, then you go through the physical acts. The impacts help with developing the energy centers in the hands, so they put out more and/or 'different' energy, however you want to define different. If you don't want to do that to your hands, you'd intensify your efforts in stimulating the energy centers in your hands, while discharging that energy regularly, so you don't create blockages and do something bad to yourself.

It would be after careful analysis of all these other things was done that I'd recommend working on full contact fighting, but it's still up to the individual's preference. Given that reception and deflection of energy are so important in taiji, much emphasis on flexibility and smoothness of body acts is an important focus. Often in a fight, it isn't necessary to stop it with full contact of your body or your opponent's. Even when fighting against a group, it wouldn't be required when making your way through it because all that's required is that you deflect the path of the attack and get around it. Fighting against a group just means there's more attacks coming and they're quicker.

[SifuAbel]

Clips are representative of what people do. Check out clips of BJJ, Judo, boxing, MT and wrestling and you will see a lot of sparring and competing. Check out clips of CMA and you will see that sparring is the exception, rather than the rule.


Clips are also tiny percentage of actual time.

Most of the time the clips are taken from competition.

90% of the contact venues for CMA are san da/shou. So, look those up. Plenty of those videos around. As well as the CLF videos you liked so much.

[PangQuan]

lol at thinking all cma clips are no contact....

spend more time on youtube.com


you will of course see a lot of form vids....form is a large part of cma. but it is not the only part. and in some cases yes, more focus is put on form.

who really cares???

i dont, because as an individual i find what i seek. so for the 100% form players out there. good job. they found what they want. who cares what they claim they can or cannot do...i dont care cause im not them.

from a stranger, action is the only speach you should really pay attention to in the MA world, everything else just needs to be ignored, or taken with a grain of salt.

thats why forums are so funny. people argue over and over about the same d@mn thing over and over. its just always dressed up a little differently...

[SevenStar]

When I bounced I always took the other guys intent into account, when he simple tried to push and shove, when he threw some silly ass punch or when he came back with a machete as was the case once up in Hamilton at Monopoly.

While its commendable that SevenStar faced a near-death situation on the street with the same intent as stepping into the ring for a friendly match, I didn't, nor do I know anyone else that did.

I was afraid when bounced and they came back with a machete, or friends or a gun, I was afraid as a peacekeeper in Bosnia, and yes, when I was a kid before I experienced the threat of real world danger, I was afraid when I got into the ring.

Perhaps therein lies the difference, perhaps it is not intent ( though that is how I look at it),perhaps its is context and reference point.

the thing about a good ass whooping is that it's a very humbling thing. ime, the retaliation will most likely occur right after the incident. days or weeks later it is forgotten,but reflected on. that is when the humbling happens. we had three shootings outside saturday night - guns are a very serious issue. I tend to have an advantage here, cuz my club close until 530am. anyone we put out who makes threats about coming back is usually gone by the time we close -they get bored and leave.

a little over a month ago, we got into it with a group of guys. the biggest was about 6'2 and over 300. he was the closest to me,so I engaged him. we tussled and I choked him out and cuffed him. while he was unconscious in the elevator, we fought outside with his five buddies. they were subdued, two were arrested. two weeks later, the big guy came back with some new friends. they walked past me, and I heard the big one say, "don't get wrong in here, and if you do, make sure that dude we just passed ain't around. he'll choke the sh!t outta you." he learned a lesson. that is a regular occurrence here.

on occasion, you will run into a few who hold grudges, and will fight or argue with you on the street - I even had a guy hanging out of the window on the e-way, yelling and making gestures.

[Yao Sing]

To answer the thread question - no. I used to fight but now I just dance around like a bug.

Oh, and according to Knifefighter my fight experience comes from recently doing a fight scene in a film and not from the years of streetfighting I did (starting in 1st grade and ending in my mid 40's).

Wow, looks like I'm either overdue for a street fight or I finally outgrew it.

Just checking in.

[SifuAbel]

LOL!! You stole my next post. What did film did you just do? I'm so jealous. The LA scene is shrinking like plastic wrap under a hair dryer.

[unkokusai]

the years of streetfighting I did (starting in 1st grade and ending in my mid 40's).



"1st grade"?! LOL! That must have been some pretty hard-core combat, right there! :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Yeah , florida is not the tough streets of that mid west cow town you grew up in.

[unkokusai]

Yeah, those 1st graders in Florida are pretty scary! But then, I guess they might be to the likes of you.

[unkokusai]

Except, no gloves, no mats, no refs, no time limits, no escapes, no tap, no sportsmanship, I'm not saying sport isn't tough. But its not for keeps.



Yeah, only playing 'make-pretend' in the kwoon is "for keeps"!

[SifuAbel]

grow up......... :rolleyes: yawn...whiney *****

[unkokusai]

Florida, Miami in particular, during the early 80's to 90's was the murder capital of the country. .


By 1st graders? Wow, that is a tough town. :rolleyes:



The more exercised you get by all this, cartwheel-boy, the more ridiculous you make yourself. So by all means, carry on.



A word of advice: Your JFS impersonation is really lacking.

[unkokusai]

I have had WAY too much **** happen to me and to others .



Oh that is dramatic. Were you squinting like Clint Eastwood when you typed it?





****in' clown:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

When Yao Sing says he's been street fighting since his youth, believe it. .


Oh, did you grow up with him? Well, I guess "grow up" really doesn't apply to you...

[unkokusai]

Why do I bother answering you?



Because your 'pitcher' over at truthmartialwhateverthehell.*****aboutbullshido is slamming you up the backside telling you to practice your clown act.

[unkokusai]

next?:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Next what? You haven't said anything yet. Its all blah blah blah

show us something. Oops he ran away.

[SifuAbel]

By 1st graders? Wow, that is a tough town. :rolleyes:



Only an idiot takes hyperbole and make it an issue. A nonsense weak issue at that.

Ok I'm cutting you off. You get no more attention from me.

[unkokusai]

Only an idiot takes hyperbole and make it an issue. A nonsense weak issue at that.




Oh, you just now bothered to read what you were responding to? Idiot.

[SevenStar]

It can seem strange, I know. Were I to teach someone taijiquan and they asked for help in readjusting how they move to be a better fighter, it'd have to depend on what it is that's the matter.

If they just aren't generating enough force when they punch/kick, I'd offer recommendations of chi cultivation. I'd tell them to work on developing how much chi they are currently generating and how much they could increase their chi generation to, as well as focusing the energy to different parts of their body at both their rest level and at their nonrest level of chi generation. Often, this would involve removing self-sabotaging behaviors/feelings that might be impeding their progress. This is definately something that wouldn't use full contact. It'd use completely zero physical contact.

If the question is body mechanics and/or how well their body flows like billowing smoke or rumbling water, they need to practice the forms. I would recommend starting with solo forms first to make sure that they are doing it properly by themselves. Going slow with the forms ensures proper deliberate movements of the correct ways and reinforces it greater in the mind of the user because of how much effort it takes to go slow. The next step would be going slow against someone else that's going slow to double check that it isn't something when going up against someone else. After slow with 2 people, I'd recommend less slow with 2 people, building up to fast with 2 people. After this, I'd suggest quiet examination of your body during meditation to see if your muscles aren't needlessly tensing up, robbing you of energy.

Given the number of thing that might go wrong, I'd suggest a thorough examination, like I described above, especially if I've never worked with them before and I wouldn't be surprised if I went to someone and they wanted me to do the same thing.

If it's precision in how and where you hit/kick, often these things use very small sections of the body and doing it for a long time each session for days at a time when you're focusing your skills can be painful, even when the one you're training with is inexperienced. So, practicing slow and then, quicker on a dummy is better before you go up against someone else.

Given what full on taiji requires, full contact is pretty much a nonissuse in my experience. I can't speak to Xing or Bag because I've never studied them, but I have analyzed things, like iron palm. Not only is it energy development, but it's structural development. Damaging the bones so there's more cells to make them tougher and making the skin less pliable (of course, using jow afterwards, but that's another discussion)...amongst other things. If you want to have that kind of physical structure, then you go through the physical acts. The impacts help with developing the energy centers in the hands, so they put out more and/or 'different' energy, however you want to define different. If you don't want to do that to your hands, you'd intensify your efforts in stimulating the energy centers in your hands, while discharging that energy regularly, so you don't create blockages and do something bad to yourself.

it is statements like these that cause us all to say it takes much longer to be able to fight with kung fu.


Often in a fight, it isn't necessary to stop it with full contact of your body or your opponent's. Even when fighting against a group, it wouldn't be required when making your way through it because all that's required is that you deflect the path of the attack and get around it. Fighting against a group just means there's more attacks coming and they're quicker.

What? Have you ever been in fights in your adult life? multiple opponent fights?

[sanjuro_ronin]

SS is right, that was one whacked post..

[RonH]

it is statements like these that cause us all to say it takes much longer to be able to fight with kung fu.

I can only speak of taijiquan when it comes to CMAs because that is the only CMA I have studied to any appreciable depth. However, I have heard that it can be a short time when learning Xing. I haven't heard how long it would take with Bag, so you'd have to ask someone knowledgable in those areas.

However, you shouldn't confuse the extent of a style's cirriculum with the speed it takes for one to advance. I looked at your profile, SS, and I'd wager that it'd take time to be able to fight (ring or street or not) when one starts with capoeira. Cap looks to be very acrobatic and many of the moves would require a certain level of flexibility that takes time to get.


What? Have you ever been in fights in your adult life? multiple opponent fights?

Yes to both questions. Are you asking in reference to wanting to know some of my experience without having any of your own or (as I suspect) that in your experience, what I wrote doesn't conform to reality because of what you've witnessed/participated in when it comes to an individual fighting against a group?


SS is right, that was one whacked post..

I might be able to assist you with what I mean, but I'd need you to give me specific things that tell me why you think what I wrote is whack. It'd be easier than just taking a shot in the dark.

[SevenStar]

I can only speak of taijiquan when it comes to CMAs because that is the only CMA I have studied to any appreciable depth. However, I have heard that it can be a short time when learning Xing. I haven't heard how long it would take with Bag, so you'd have to ask someone knowledgable in those areas.

However, you shouldn't confuse the extent of a style's cirriculum with the speed it takes for one to advance.

I referring specifically to your post, so speak from that perspective. naturally you are in a better position to speak on that than xingyi or bagua if you don't train in them. your post outlines a lot and you downplay the role of sparring, so when are you training to fight and how? neither an iron palm nor any of your other attributes are much good if you can't use them.


I looked at your profile, SS, and I'd wager that it'd take time to be able to fight (ring or street or not) when one starts with capoeira. Cap looks to be very acrobatic and many of the moves would require a certain level of flexibility that takes time to get.


did you read all of it? my primary experience is judo, bjj and muay thai. my kid takes capoeira and I take it with him. however, this group focuses on basics. you learn the acrobatic stuff later.

Yes to both questions. Are you asking in reference to wanting to know some of my experience without having any of your own or (as I suspect) that in your experience, what I wrote doesn't conform to reality because of what you've witnessed/participated in when it comes to an individual fighting against a group?


I was asking because of your statement about deflection being the only thing needed in the situations you mentioned. no, it doesn't mesh with my experience at all. can you elaborate?

[RonH]

I referring specifically to your post, so speak from that perspective. naturally you are in a better position to speak on that than xingyi or bagua if you don't train in them. your post outlines a lot and you downplay the role of sparring, so when are you training to fight and how? neither an iron palm nor any of your other attributes are much good if you can't use them.

I don't downplay sparring. I'm saying there's a lot to double check before light contact, which would come before hard/full contact. What I downplay is the requirement of excessive pain.


did you read all of it? my primary experience is judo, bjj and muay thai. my kid takes capoeira and I take it with him. however, this group focuses on basics. you learn the acrobatic stuff later.

I read it all. Just as in taiji, capoeira has things that can be learned earlier than others. What it depends on is the student.


I was asking because of your statement about deflection being the only thing needed in the situations you mentioned. no, it doesn't mesh with my experience at all. can you elaborate?

Because you don't need to choke your opponent unconscious or cause them a lot of pain to deflect/neutralize an attack. 4 ounces prevents a thousand pounds of damage. An attack only needs to not make contact with you in a damaging way to be stopped/deflected/neutralized. Stopping the source or sources of an attack(s) is another question entirely.

[SevenStar]

I don't downplay sparring. I'm saying there's a lot to double check before light contact, which would come before hard/full contact. What I downplay is the requirement of excessive pain.

right, and from the sounds of your post, it takes awhile before you get to that point. How long does it actually take on average? how long did it take you?




I read it all. Just as in taiji, capoeira has things that can be learned earlier than others. What it depends on is the student.

sure it does, as does any style. The difference? in capoeira, we played in the roda - their sparring - from day one. sport styles follow a similar format.

[RonH]

right, and from the sounds of your post, it takes awhile before you get to that point. How long does it actually take on average?

That depends on the teacher. Some start you out with meditation and energy cultivation. Some start you out with the form first and work on the mental/energy stuff later. Some people have a natural gift for fighting, some have a more innate skill in the mental/energy section. So, I'd imagine that it's hard to find an average. Also, not everyone that does taiji does it for the martial part, so it takes longer to find out and the sample size is smaller, but I've never heard of anyone doing any kind of research on the overall time it takes generally. Plus, there are some teachers who are more posers than not, so that decreases the sample size even more of what could be the average.


how long did it take you?

I already had several years with the mental/energy stuff and my profe had started with the form first to make the class more open to people that wanted to do it for various reasons. So, it depends on what you mean by how long. If you mean just being able to do one thing, either defense or offense (I mean these as what would generally be thought of from an outsider's perspective because in every defense and offense movement in taiji, there is the other, either an offensive or a defensive movement happening either on the opposite side of the body and/or within the same movement that's applied to a different situation and/or the same situation that is a combination defensive/offensive move), it was from the first class.

If you mean a good beginner, there was this one woman in my class who had been in it for 2 years before I showed up and she was still have trouble getting her body to move right. Even though she was there for the health and wellness part of it, she was still having problems with getting her body to work the way it's supposed to. Taiji does get adapted to the individual, to let them advance in their own way, but (eventually) their body adapts to the proper way to do taijiquan. She hadn't been able to get beyond the first part and move into the second part.

What could typically be regarded as advanced (what is considered advanced I feel is paltry and grossly inadequate for such a word, but that's just me) took me about 8-9 months, but that's primarily because I'm a natural at fighting and I'm a very fast learner. Also, my teacher wasn't one that would object to me looking to outside sources and even to other styles to help me advance quicker. He was glad I did that.


sure it does, as does any style. The difference? in capoeira, we played in the roda - their sparring - from day one. sport styles follow a similar format.

Anyone can be shown how to punch and kick and block and how to ground fight with a certain degree of effectiveness in many situations, especially when you jump right in and start with it. To use a car analogy, the point with CMAs is not to add new features and put in a better, stromger engine. You completely redesign 99% of the entire car from the ground up. This includes enhancing everything above the original design schematics of the original car when it first came out of the factory.

[SifuAbel]

Right...moving on..................

Its seems the tally for hard contact has grown well beyond any others.

I see quite a few on there are known for fighting. Has the "trend" been debunked? Has it seen a turnaround?

[Knifefighter]

Has the "trend" been debunked? Has it seen a turnaround?

Not until there is video evidence.

[SifuAbel]

Not even that would satisfy you. You'd immediately start trying to find fault real or imagined as to why that slap fest of yours is superior. Be it equipment, the color of the shorts, something.

I can hear the collective "screw you" churning in the distance.

[unkokusai]

Not even that would satisfy you. You'd immediately start trying to find fault real or imagined as to why that slap fest of yours is superior. Be it equipment, the color of the shorts, something. .



Only one way to find out, fat boy.

[diego]

I referring specifically to your post, so speak from that perspective. naturally you are in a better position to speak on that than xingyi or bagua if you don't train in them. your post outlines a lot and you downplay the role of sparring, so when are you training to fight and how? neither an iron palm nor any of your other attributes are much good if you can't use them.



did you read all of it? my primary experience is judo, bjj and muay thai. my kid takes capoeira and I take it with him. however, this group focuses on basics. you learn the acrobatic stuff later.


I was asking because of your statement about deflection being the only thing needed in the situations you mentioned. no, it doesn't mesh with my experience at all. can you elaborate?

sevenstar you find any added benefits to your kicks and footwork from the cap training?...was thinking of joining a local school thinking they'd help my hop gar kicks...well that's a lie a hot brazilian at my old work goes to the school but i'm saying:)

[Knifefighter]

Only one way to find out, fat boy.

Actually, Abel did post some sparring footage. While I gave him the requisite hard time about it, it wasn't bad. Of course, the footage was from ages ago... so long ago that he looked like he might have even been in shape.

[SifuAbel]

Ugh!!!, I hate it when you are unexpectedly nice.

I've put unkobozo on ignore. You would all do well to do the same.

He expects things from others that he would never do.

[unkokusai]

Fatso lies, he's reading every word.

[Yao Sing]

LOL!! You stole my next post. What did film did you just do? I'm so jealous. The LA scene is shrinking like plastic wrap under a hair dryer.

Filmed in Florida - I did a fight scene for "Real Premonition" (http://www.realpremonition.com/) (released in Morocco since that's where the money came from, still working on US distribution) but they chopped it up in edit because the writer/director/lead didn't have time to practice. I don't have the clip for that one.

Also did a scene for a cheesy "Ninjas VS Pirates" (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2014243080). I was up all night waiting to do my scene and just dosed off when they called me to do it.


"1st grade"?! LOL! That must have been some pretty hard-core combat, right there! :rolleyes:

As I recall I got a pretty good burning lump on my skull whe he tossed me into a desk. It was my idea, thought it would be fun to jump the biggest kid in class when the teacher left the room. Got a few other to join the fun too. Man that was fun.


Yeah , florida is not the tough streets of that mid west cow town you grew up in.

Actually I was only born in Miami, I grew up in New Jersey.

[SifuAbel]

I was up all night waiting to do my scene and just dosed off when they called me to do it.


Ugh!, I hate when that happens. Oh well, its a living when you can get it.