The 95 percenters

[SevenStar]

As we've heard said several times on this forum and others, 95% of tma schools teach crap. Who here trains at one of the 95%?

Who has at one time? and if yohu did, please explain the difference between that school and your current one.

[SifuAbel]

That number itself is flawed. Its come up by those in and out of tcma. Those outside TCMA concider it to more like 99.9%. Why? Why not, its all about bashing the next guy anyway. Why bother trying to understand something different when its easier just to poo on it and stay in your own realm.

Those inside TCMA give a high number due to style bias and club pride. "we 'da best" blah blah blah. Of course, most inside will say the guy down the street is no good. He's down the street , competition. Or it will be based purely on style bias were that which is closest to what you yourself do will be held in higher regard.

Thats why I posted a fight poll and not a style poll. Becasue in REALITY its about those whom FIGHT or not.

Oh and BTW, Krotty has 100 times the amount of Mcdojos.

[lkfmdc]

one word, FIBER :D

[SifuAbel]

I know you make that suggestion from personal experience, viejo.

[golden arhat]

was what i like to call diluted hung kune
the teacher was an lod tkd champion with about 6 months training in hung kune
the sparring was all tkd
he had 1 0r 2 good students the rest were ****tards ppl with a fleeting interest in martial arts or 7 year olds
no one was really dedicated
www.hungkuen-kungfu.com
my 2 new schools
1 is wushu
master chen de qing
here there is no ego we just have a dedicated interest in lookin **** cool and keeping fit
2 valetudo
there is no ego we go all out as hard as possible with alot of strength training
i l0ve where i am right now

[SifuAbel]

was what i like to call diluted hung kune
the teacher was an lod tkd champion with about 6 months training in hung kune
the sparring was all tkd


OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO K.................. :confused:

[The Xia]

There are some great schools out there as well as ones that are complete and utter crapola. Many schools also have both good and bad aspects.

[Yao Sing]

I've trained at schools that were primarily hands-on apps focused and at schools that were forms focused. Both were very much into competition although in their own respective interests. The apps school trained for full contact ring fighting and the forms school trained for forms competition.

I was never into either one really myself so I have no ring experience or competition trophys. I started training just to kick butt and ended up training just for the enjoyment, health benefits, and an attempt to hang on to my fighting skills later in life.

Basically, the 'kick butt' isn't as important to me now at 52 than it was for me at 22 or even 32. As I've said in the past (although under a different screen name) I train to deal with the low life street crud wannabe fighters that are more likely to cause me trouble than the highly skilled professional fighter.

I do, however, miss banging it up like the old days. Unfortunately, I don't have a school, go to a school, or have any training partners.

Bash away if it makes you feel good.

[golden arhat]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO K.................. :confused:

what ? what confuses u he was a guy who tricked me out of my money by teaching me utter crap and claiming he was some sort of master
if u tried a lesson with him u would understand

[qiphlow]

again with the "fighting is better"? WHY? just because one doesn't get in a cage or a ring doesn't mean one is incapable of defending oneself. there are MANY people who practice TCMA who are not sport fighters (and i'm sorry if i've offended anyone here, but k-1, ufc, etc. is just that: sport fighting) and MANY who also fight for sport in addition to their TCMA practice. one is not any better than the other. in most sport fighting events, there is an understanding that your opponent is most likely not out to maim or kill you, only win the match. i would imagine that fighting for your life is quite a different animal. and no, i've never been in a fight since i started training TCMA, outside of sparring/push hands in classes. so what? does this mean that i'm getting anything less out of my practice? my answer would be an emphatic NO. i'm getting everything i want out of my practice and more. i sincerely hope that everyone else is, too. i just think it's stupid to argue that those who fight are somehow better martial artists than those who don't. because, in the long run we're all just practicing for our own reasons--and all that REALLY matters is are YOU satisfied with YOUR particular practice???
thanks for letting me vent. flame away.

[SifuAbel]

Do you really think that someone who trains at a crappy school is going to say they are crappy or even think they are crappy if they are happy with the school?

It would be nice of those who used to train at a crappy school to tell us where and what it was like. Names need not be used.

Ross, what 95% school did you train at, Or was it you were a trainer at?

[SifuAbel]

what ? what confuses u he was a guy who tricked me out of my money by teaching me utter crap and claiming he was some sort of master
if u tried a lesson with him u would understand

Yeah, you fell for it. :rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

Actually this 95% is just a random number thrown around buy peeps who have an interest in downplaying CMA. It's marketing propaganda, like the claim that 80% of fights go to the ground.

It makes grappling sound like the priority while stand-up is minimized. Personally, I think less than 50% of the fights I've had went to the ground, no matter which one of us brought it there (yes I like to take it down sometimes, especially when dealing with big guys). Most street fights result in some poor slob getting KTFO from a sucker punch or overwelming onslaught he wasn't prepared to handle.

The number could be a bit higher these days though with more interest in grappling and the UFC and such.

[lkfmdc]

Ross, what 95% school did you train at, Or was it you were a trainer at?

I'm old, I've been around a lot

I did Shotokan, the fighting was all point, and the format extremely limited to what they considered shotokan to be, if you threw a spin kick they lost their minds

I worked with a certain short hand CMA style where they didn't all ANY KICKS when you "sparred" and the sparring was like patty cake

Over the years my original TKD school went from full contact to point, and of course, it was still TKD, we didn't spar with hand techniques

I did a few stand up Japanese jujitsu that was all wrist locks and one step sparring

basicly, I wasted as much time as I spent time doing good stuff over the years, thank g'd I'm old and had a little more time :D

[golden arhat]

i chalk it up to bad luck and now i have more experience
so at least he taught me something lol

and i provided the places web adress b4
www.hungkuen-kungfu.com
note he doesnt actually state that he knows tkd
but i am reliably informed
i used to do tkd and we used to spar with tkd

[The Xia]

Yeah, you fell for it. :rolleyes:
Give him a break. I don't know the details of the school or why/how he ended up there so I can't talk about that really. It's pretty easy to get suckered if you don't have a ton of research under your belt though. He probably learned from it.

[SifuAbel]

I'm going to preempt the wave of flak I think I'm about to recieve by saying that I KNOW there are not so great schools out there. My position is that the number given is too high.

Ross, thanks for the cool response. I do feel lucky that I landed into my teachers school at an early age. I didn't have to school bounce as much as some of you.

[golden arhat]

it does seem like u (sifu abel) r pickin on me
like u did on the "do u fight" thread
im not too arsed
and i voted that i used to be at one of those schools
i'm totally happy with my current schools

[lkfmdc]

I got lucky in a few regards... I boxed at the PAL when I was a kid, it gave me a different take than a lot of kids who just watch a movie and then want to do martial arts

The first TMA I did was Taekwondo and Hapkido, and the insturctor was cool and pretty good... but over time he gave in to the federation and the sport, and that crap... but I had a decent base to move on from

I got lucky and learned a good version of Hung Ga, though it was conservative Dang Fong lineage, we only did four forms and I didn't learn the weapon sets

After bouncing around, I got lucky again and studied Shuai Jiao with Master Jeng.... got in right before the SJ politic wars began, was around when most people were cool

Then of course I eventually met CTS

[The Xia]

I do feel lucky that I landed into my teachers school at an early age. I didn't have to school bounce as much as some of you.
Indeed it is luck unless you do a lot of diligent research.
Most people don’t do tons of research before starting martial arts. If you don’t do this, you go in blind. You can end up in a crappy school and not know the difference. Eventually, the person may gather enough knowledge to see the truth. This doesn't always happen though. If you are lucky, you end up with a good sifu and really appreciate it later on.

[SifuAbel]

I got lucky in a few regards... I boxed at the PAL when I was a kid, it gave me a different take than a lot of kids who just watch a movie and then want to do martial arts

The first TMA I did was Taekwondo and Hapkido, and the insturctor was cool and pretty good... but over time he gave in to the federation and the sport, and that crap... but I had a decent base to move on from

I got lucky and learned a good version of Hung Ga, though it was conservative Dang Fong lineage, we only did four forms and I didn't learn the weapon sets

After bouncing around, I got lucky again and studied Shuai Jiao with Master Jeng.... got in right before the SJ politic wars began, was around when most people were cool

Then of course I eventually met CTS

So you really wouldn't concider them part of the (much overhyped number) 95%.

[lkfmdc]

So you really wouldn't concider them part of the (much overhyped number) 95%.

The Taekwondo was full contact kicks at first, at least you learned to use your legs, but it lacked hand technique and any grappling, and lots of time was wasted on one step sparring, silly forms, running flying kicks, etc I might be tempted to stick it into the 95%... especially if you just stayed there and never opened your mind

The Hapkido, done with same guy, was all technique, no sparring with it. Later, doing Judo and BJJ, and soem wrestling, I can now see which techniqus are good and which are total crap... might stick it in that 95% as well

The Hung Ga? well, we trapped a hell of a lot of time... taught me to get smacked in the face and not freak out... some of the material I find unrealistic now, mostly because who in the US attacks with kiu sau and gwa tung combination?

The Shuai Jiao was the best TCMA I did before I met CTS.... the other TMA I found useful was of course Judo, which I only did a little of

[SifuAbel]

Actually this 95% is just a random number thrown around buy peeps who have an interest in downplaying CMA. It's marketing propaganda, like the claim that 80% of fights go to the ground.

It makes grappling sound like the priority while stand-up is minimized. Personally, I think less than 50% of the fights I've had went to the ground, no matter which one of us brought it there (yes I like to take it down sometimes, especially when dealing with big guys). Most street fights result in some poor slob getting KTFO from a sucker punch or overwelming onslaught he wasn't prepared to handle.

The number could be a bit higher these days though with more interest in grappling and the UFC and such.

Again this is more style bias. Also note that 7*'s poll is about TMA, not TCMA in general. How many krotty peeps think the Fu is no good and vice versa?

[The Xia]

How many krotty peeps think the Fu is no good and vice versa?
From some Karate enthusiasts, I've heard that TCMA is pretty flowery nonsense. From some Kung Fu enthusiasts, I've heard that Karate is stiff and rigid.

[SifuAbel]

Right, this cross critique drives the number up.

[SevenStar]

again with the "fighting is better"? WHY? just because one doesn't get in a cage or a ring doesn't mean one is incapable of defending oneself. there are MANY people who practice TCMA who are not sport fighters (and i'm sorry if i've offended anyone here, but k-1, ufc, etc. is just that: sport fighting) and MANY who also fight for sport in addition to their TCMA practice. one is not any better than the other. in most sport fighting events, there is an understanding that your opponent is most likely not out to maim or kill you, only win the match. i would imagine that fighting for your life is quite a different animal. and no, i've never been in a fight since i started training TCMA, outside of sparring/push hands in classes. so what? does this mean that i'm getting anything less out of my practice? my answer would be an emphatic NO. i'm getting everything i want out of my practice and more. i sincerely hope that everyone else is, too. i just think it's stupid to argue that those who fight are somehow better martial artists than those who don't. because, in the long run we're all just practicing for our own reasons--and all that REALLY matters is are YOU satisfied with YOUR particular practice???
thanks for letting me vent. flame away.


you are ranting about nothing pertinent to this thread. Who peed in your cheerios this morning? relax, relate, release.... Woosah....

[SevenStar]

Do you really think that someone who trains at a crappy school is going to say they are crappy or even think they are crappy if they are happy with the school?

It would be nice of those who used to train at a crappy school to tell us where and what it was like. Names need not be used.

Ross, what 95% school did you train at, Or was it you were a trainer at?

No, I don't think they will. that's just it. it's funny how there is a general concensus about the 95%, but people won't admit to being part of that 95%.

Also, what you said about the number being too high may be valid.

[SevenStar]

Actually this 95% is just a random number thrown around buy peeps who have an interest in downplaying CMA.

Actually, I was still training cma when I first heard that - and I heard it from a cma about tma in general. since, I've heard several people from several arts say it.



It's marketing propaganda, like the claim that 80% of fights go to the ground.

If so, then it's at least based on something, even if it was only 95% of tma in a certain city or state. The ground thing was based on police stats, and from that standpoint is very valid. As a bouncer, I grapple all the time, as we are not permitted to strike unless the situation warrants. I would imagine it is the same with cops.


It makes grappling sound like the priority while stand-up is minimized. Personally, I think less than 50% of the fights I've had went to the ground, no matter which one of us brought it there (yes I like to take it down sometimes, especially when dealing with big guys). Most street fights result in some poor slob getting KTFO from a sucker punch or overwelming onslaught he wasn't prepared to handle.

meh...expereinces vary. more than half of the fights I've seen have gone too the ground. dude doesn't get KTFO, he usually trips and the other guy falls with him, or he tries a sloppy takedown and they both fall, or their all multiple attackers and one snatches him down while the others are striking him.

[The Xia]

Comments like "95% of places are crap" are said for many reasons. The first reason has already been mentioned. That reason would be ego. The second reason can be the location someone is basing his judgment on. Not everywhere is like the Bay Area. The third reason would be the person's standards. As I said before, it's not always black and white. Many schools have both their good and bad aspects to them. Some might be inclined to ignore the good points and place the school in the category of complete crap because of its bad points.

[qiphlow]

you are ranting about nothing pertinent to this thread. Who peed in your cheerios this morning? relax, relate, release.... Woosah....

actually, it was regarding sifuabel's comment earlier in the thread about all that really matters is if you fight or not--not to pick on him personally, as i don't know the man, but i just see WAY too much of the "if you ain't fightin', you ain't doin' martial arts!" garbage being thrown about on these forums and i just couln't hold my tongue any longer (and i did have a pretty crappy a.m., which may have played a factor in my tone)--my most humble apologies.
i'm all better now.

[TenTigers]

My school is crap.



-and it's still better than 95% out there:p

[David Jamieson]

I've been lucky enough to train in Okinawan Karate Do (Isshin). It is absolutely not even close to shotokan which is the standard brand of big karate that pervades everywhere.

I've also trained in a couple of different cma.

also tkd, fencing, boxing, wrestling.

I can't really say I ever felt like I was training in something that was useless.
I guess anything and everything is useless if the correct intention is not behind it.

[charyuop]

I train Tai Chi and I am sorry, but it is not good...but it's not even a school.
I train with a group of people meeting in a church and they teach it for health only...the good part is that's for free.
The teachers don't even know the martial art part of it.
But I had a class in which the Master of the teachers took up the training session and I can say she (as in the Master) knows what Tai Chi really is. In one lesson she corrected me in so many posture errors that I didn't even know I was doing (many of them it was just few inches) and that the teachers never noticed before.
I wish I could learn directly from the Master, but that is not possible...bah lucky me LOL.

[B-Rad]

So... do fake TMA schools that are crappy still count towards the 95% of crappy TMA schools?

I started off with a bad TKD guy pretending to be a TMA master too... but I don't think he should really count as a bad traditional school. If someone's going to lie, they're going to lie... Traditional martial artists can't do much to stop it :p

[TenTigers]

I've trained under some awesome guys-TKD and Hapkido with Yeon Hee Park,hard contact-no pads. He even taught us boxing. Tang Soo Do with a guy from Korea who taught the ROK Marines-winter workouts in the mountains and snow,,Kyokushin with a VietNam vet who was hardcore all the way, but I have also studied under some not so good, and some who downright sucked a$$.
I am the product of the best instructors, from whom I have teaken many of my teaching methods, and the worst-from whom I hope I never make the same mistakes.
In the past few years, I have grown eponentially(sp) and at this time, I am jealous of my students. They have the teacher I never had, and wish I did. They are developing at a much faster rate, and not developing any of my bad habits. It is (or should be) every teacher's dream to have their students surpass them, and I am definately making this happen.
I still wish I could train them harder, tougher, and my school is gradually becoming that. Contact is introduced on day one-even before, in the intro class. Various things like situps with the partner holding yor knees blasting you in the gut with hand targets, sam-sing,hands on "blocking" drills with hard contact, breakfalls, saam jien-with striking to the body, etc, So I am building a harder generation in my school.
one day....

[lkfmdc]

ok, I'm gonna blow the roof off this chicken coop now ....

I think stuff just goes in cycles.... 150 years ago CMA probably looked a lot more like what we call MMA..... we go stuck in the 70's shaw brothers thing, the 80's ninja crap and the 90's tournament karate... give it another 10 years and the world may all be doing MMA again, even if they are calling it kung fu ;)

[SevenStar]

When I say that, people call me crazy.

[lkfmdc]

seven star! you're crazy, crazy I say, hear me man, CRAZY

[rogue]

When I say that, people call me crazy.

It's all a matter of street cred, David has it, others don't.:p

[lkfmdc]

si this the point at which I say something about "home slice"? :confused: :eek:

[rogue]

But then you'd have to explain to 7* what it means. Really, the guy is still quoting Vanilla Ice.

[The Xia]

"home slice"?
Is that a Wolfgang Puck pizza recipe? :p

[wiz cool c]

The school I studied at back in the states is not crap. They have two sparring classes and two push hand/Rou shou classes a week. The problem was only a few people went to these classes. It was me and two or three other guys.

Now the other people who did 95% forms and 5 % application believe they are learning deadly stuff. That seems to be the problem. People believe they are learning how to kill people with form,Chi Qung and stuff.

[GreenCloudCLF]

My first "Kung-Fu" school was watered down karate. Teaching "I" pattern forms and weak self-defense. It was my first exposure to martial arts...if is hadn't been I probably wouldn't have trained there....apparently they used to be good though cause when I got there all I heard was "They used to teach REAL Kung-Fu" "You should see what they USED to teach" and things like that.

[shuaichiao]

I've trained seriously at 4 kung fu schools, 3 were great the 4th was very forms oriented and only taught applications once in a great while. They had a sparring class but it was pretty much just pair people up and throw them out there with no instruction. The experienced people were sick of having nobody good to spar with and the beginners were tired of getting pummeled and not getting much better.

I also trained at a couple of non Chinese style schools. among them were the ultimate mcdojo of Fred Villari's kempo and John C. Kim's chung moo quan. Thank God I had the experience to recognise crap before spending to much time there.

[Royal Dragon]

You should not degrade Mc Dojo's by placeing Chung moo quan in that catagory.....CMQ is a Cult.

[rogue]

I also trained at a couple of non Chinese style schools. among them were the ultimate mcdojo of Fred Villari's kempo and John C. Kim's chung moo quan. Thank God I had the experience to recognise crap before spending to much time there.

What's wrong with Fred Villari's Shaolin Kempo?:mad:

[Faruq]

My initiation to martial arts occurred under Jor Carson of Carson's Kenpo Karate in Roselle when I was a kid. My dad had taught me some fists and locks from his marine hand-to-hand combat, but I want to learn to break and do forms. Unfortunately Jor had a huge German Shepard that scared the heck out of me, and he started having the dog walking between us barking in the small basement of his home that was his studio, so I enrolled at John C Kim's school of Chung Moo Quan in nearby Schaumburg under instructors Paul and John. I was too young and just a kid so I didn't know what was good and what was B.S., but that was my introduction. I'd have to say the first school that I really felt prepared to do combat by was Simon Lau's school of Wing Chun under sifu Steve Lee Swift, but of course that was more than 20 years ago. I hear the early years of that school produced some good fighters.

[shuaichiao]

You should not degrade Mc Dojo's by placeing Chung moo quan in that catagory.....CMQ is a Cult.

My apologies:confused:

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol dude dont worry. it was a joke. he wasn't directing that at you.

[shuaichiao]

lol dude dont worry. it was a joke. he wasn't directing that at you.

I know. I was being sarcastic.

[Banjos_dad]

for there to be a basis for comparison one must have attended more than one school. That is a big factor here.
Plus, who doesn't want to think that they attend the best school in town? A problem is that a lot of people make statements like that just sort of from an emotional base rather than from an experience-based perspective.

not that there aren't a lot of crappy schools out there :p thank imaginary deity that i go to the best school in my town. lol. plus getting some practical scrapping experience in the entertainment industry didn't hurt as a yardstick for abilities. The true litmus test however would be to fight a range of fighters from different traditions and backgrounds, if someone really wanted to 'seek the truth in combat.' <-- my favorite Bruce Lee quote, learn it from the inside, and you will see that he really did know something.

good poll, Sevenstar.

yeah as far as that '80% of fights wind up on the ground' business let's leave that back in the 90's where it came from shall we, along with Hootie and the Blowfish, and Ally McBeal. Maybe in sport cage fighting that is true but unless you count when people fall down KTFO'd on the floor, I haven't found this to be the case and I have at least a dozen non-sport fights in my own direct experience, as an adult, which give lie to this 'statistic.' WTF, does the Nielsen rating company send out a mailer every year soliciting that kind of information? WHo could possibly know that? SOunds like something i Gracie might have voiced at one point but I am speculating. And yes, a gracie could kick my @ss thoroughly and with little effort...but i haven't run into one yet.
Sort of like the dog brother's trailer.... "When MEN fight, there is always a weapon..." OOOOooooo, i want to be a man too. I had no idea... BE MY TEACHER!!! lmmfao. Or the guys who say, "Yeah, your kung fu don't touch my .44 mag..," upon further questioning it invariably turns out that at that particular moment the weapon is not in the scoffer's possession...:rolleyes: "yahhhh, okay. you've got nothing to worry about then, do ya Duke?" So the basis of your self-defense system is that the mere mention of such a powerful engine of destruction will defeat the most threatening brute... 'i guess if it works for you...'

as far as bold statements and 'statistics' such as these, you can't believe everything you read.... "seek the truth in combat." no one can tell you the truth about your fighting ability, you have to learn it on your own.

[SifuAbel]

Another flaw in this poll is the fact that the 12 whom used to train at a 95% school don't train at one now. They train at another, or various, school(s) which aren't in that 95% number either.

[BlueTravesty]

When I was a wee lad I took karate lessons at a community center/park. I would say they were in the 95%, but it wasn't Sensei's fault. I mean, when you only take lessons once a week for $3 (keep in mind, this was 1993) and only spar once every 3 months, there's not going to be a lot of quality. Quite a few of the students however, were pretty good despite that. I just didn't have the self-discipline at the time to practice on my own. I could do some pretty kicks, but I couldn't fight at all. I learned this the hard way.

Fast forward to the present day, where I started at 22 years old in MyJhongLawhorn. There is a big difference- first we actually doconditioning, for one thing (I do cardio and some light calisthenics outside of class too, but it is nice to have someone to push you too.) Secondly, we spar every week. Third- one of the senior students took a few years of BJJ when he was living in NY, and is working on a curriculum to teach us- with Sifu's full approval on it. If it REALLY takes off, he'll start working some MMA-style sparring class into it. Finally, unlike in my younger years, I feel I can handle myself pretty well. I can't choke out Royce or Armbar Hughes, or survive a clinch from Pramuk, or... you get the point- but if some random deviant tries to hurt one of my loved ones, I feel I can handle myself well enough to defend them.

[FatherDog]

Another flaw in this poll is the fact that the 12 whom used to train at a 95% school don't train at one now. They train at another, or various, school(s) which aren't in that 95% number either.

Another flaw is that it's a poll just of people who A) read KFM and B) respond to polls, which makes it pretty useless as "proof" that 95% of kung fu schools are/aren't crap.

[SifuAbel]

thank you, punkass

[FatherDog]

You're welcome, monkey****er.