Help With Hsing-Yi Crossing fist

[FANWOO]

could someone here please help me to understand the combat application of the crossing fist in the hsing-yi earth form? to me it just looks like a cross block. wouldn't crossing take more time in combat than using say the metal or fire elements ? i am confused.

[brucereiter]

could someone here please help me to understand the combat application of the crossing fist in the hsing-yi earth form? to me it just looks like a cross block. wouldn't crossing take more time in combat than using say the metal or fire elements ? i am confused.

hi ...

there are many applications for heng chuan. i think it is best to find them through practice but her are a couple ideas.

try to think of a way to throw/unbalance using stepping, hip control and moving their upper body the opposite direction as the lower body.

rear/low hand deflects strike while forward high hand strikes face jaw/nose/ear.


(below info copied from jiang rong qiao)
Heng Quan (Hern Chuan)
Element: Earth
Organ: Spleen
Power: Ball rolling
Energy: To cross, move sideways, or to force through aggressively with a sideward motion.

Heng Quan is considered to be neutral, or the center of the Five Elements. It is located centrally between Yin and Yang, and constitutes a bridge between them. In the Five Elements, it is like a ball rolling and belongs to Earth, and is related to the spleen and the stomach. This movement is able to make the Qi gathered at its center round and full. __Everything grows from the Earth. The old masters said that faith in the principle is just like the spleen in the body. A person without faith fails in everything. A person with a hurt spleen loses the harmony of the five internal organs. Beng Quan is the important move in Xingyi. Students should pay attention to it.__On the body, "Renshong" is the name of the cavity located between the nose and upper lip. It is related to the spleen, and reflects the condition of the spleen. __Song of Heng Quan_The front hand is Yang and the rear is Yin. The rear hand is always hiding under the armpit. As you exchange the posture and release the hand (attack), the leg raises for action.__The tongue curves upward and Qi is emitted. When Hern Quan is changing postures, the thighs are like scissors. Triangular body; moving the important stepping, feet and legs are maneuvered cleanly. When the rear hand is turning and becoming Yang, it repels toward the outside.__When the step falls, the three tips should line up. The tip of the nose and tip of the foot should be closely connected. When Heng Quan is used for striking, ther rear fist is Yin. The front hand is Yang and its elbow protects the heart. Left and right bend the bow and repel to the outside. The feet and hands fall at the same time and the tongue tip is curved.

[Plymouth Rocks]

Don't think of the five fists as techniques but rather directions of using neijing. Heng is outside to inside and...
"try to think of a way to throw/unbalance using stepping, hip control and moving their upper body the opposite direction as the lower body.'' is also a very good explanation. Imagine somethrows a right cross. Step beside (or hook it or whatever) the left foot and (after checking, blocking, striking w/e) the right hook, turn his body clockwise (to his left) and watch the fun.

[Three Harmonies]

Heng Quan represents horizontal energy. do not get too "hung" (pun intended :D ) up on literal apps from the Wu Xing, think of the principle of energy/movement. One very easy illustration is a hook punch.
Cheers
Jake :)

[fiercest tiger]

What would be horizontal and lateral energies relate to 3 HARMONIES?

Regards
Garry

[FANWOO]

could someone please help me to understand the combat applications of the hsing-yi earth form ? it seems to me to look like a crossing block. wouldn't that take unnecessary movement in combat as opposed to using the fire or water forms? any help here would be great :)

[Three Harmonies]

QUE??? What is your question?

[Three Harmonies]

Dude
Pick a thread and stick with it. I answered your question in the Kung Fu thread. Heng represents Horizontal energy, regardless of how it is expressed. For instance a hook punch is a good example.
Cheers
Jake :)

[stma]

A hook punch can also be an expression of zuan.

[Ray Pina]

Use your elbows as a wedge -- think snow plow -- so your hand can go to its target but the elbow (fueled by the foot driving and body connection) opens or collapses the defending bridge. The hands never go side to side. Use your elbows and foot.

[golden arhat]

i think this belongs in the neijia forum

[Three Harmonies]

STMA
Hmmm, can you desribe more? Are you refering to the waist turning while executing Dzuan Quan? I understand it as a drilling/rising type representation of energy.
Thanks
Jake

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/songofheng.html

here is a reference point to Pattersons site. explains things pretty well.

hope this helps, TWS

[GeneChing]

Heng is the hardest of the elements to apply. You can pull a lot of stuff out of it; it's just not as obvious as the other four. I think the simplest application is the shot to the floating ribs or the takedown. Stick with those - keep it simple - and let the others come in good time. That's been my approach to it. Coming from a Shaolin background, it's easy for me to get all heady with crazy application variations. Xingyi has some crazy applications for sure, especially with the animals, but I find that a lot of its power as a combat art derives from the simple apps out of the elements.

[stma]

While the most common translation for zuan is "drilling", and certainly using zuan in its drilling capacity is a powerful tool, the old songs have zuan correspond to water. A less common definition of zuan is "make ones way into." This fits the water analogy better as water tend to seep into any nook or cranny available. Using a hook punch to wiggle around and through your opponent's defenses would then become a manifestation of zuan...

...or from a physiological point of view, the common way to do zuan is by rotating the arm outward as the fist goes out. If you rotate the arm inward instead, and allow the elbow to rise, the strike is easily transformed into a hook.

[Three Harmonies]

STMA
As per most of our conversations you give me yet another perspective to look at Xing Yi from. Thank you. Excellent explanation. Do you have any examples of the old songs?
Thanks,
Jake :)

[stma]

They are coming in your translation, which is getting close to being finished.

[brucereiter]

The Songs Of The Five Elements

The Song Of Pi Ch’uan
From the mouth, come the two fists closely held.
Up to the eyebrow, drills the forefist.
Close behind the forefist, follows the hind fist.
Together with the crossing arms, the heart unites. Chi falls to Tan Tien as body moves, hind
foot forward as the arms separate.
In a hemisphere the Tiger's mouth opens while all fingers apart.
Forehand pushes to between eyebrow and heart.
Under the armpit, the hind hand stays.
Hand, nose, and foot form the three point set.
So as Pi Chuan tsuans upward, to the eyebrow, turned up the little finger.
Together sink the feet and hands, upthrust the tongue.
Advancing, changing styles, hind palm sinks downward.

The Song Of Peng Ch’uan
Peng Chuan starts with three points set.
"Hu Yen" upward high as heart.
Hind Hand "Yang Fist" under armpit stays, fore foot forward, hind foot next.
Shape like "T", the two feet are firm, body turns while looking straight.
Upstraight standing when foot lift, lifted foot with toes pointing side wise.
Hands and feet come down swiftly at same pace, fore foot crossed then hind one follows
naturally.
Peng Chuan still have tongue at palate.
Fore Arms elbow curved to upthrust.
Punch to the armpits when advancing.
Be quick and firm, the hind foot follows.

The Song Of Tsuan Ch’uan
Fore Hand "Yin Palm" presses down.
Hind Hand "Yang Fist" upward tsuans.
Up to the eyebrows the fists tsuan, elbows embrace heart while hind foot moves.
Stare at fore fist, four limbs stop.
Tsuan Chuan moves and styles changed.
Fore foot steps first, hind foot next, hind hand "Yin Palm" down the elbows kept.
Step by step the three points set.
Fore Hand "Yang Fist" hit the nose.
Little finger upward turned, heart by elbows protected.
Tsuan Chuan punches nose when advancing.
Fore Palm downward pressed with wrist, then upward turned as steps forward.



The Song Of Pao Ch’uan
Elbows tightly embracing the body as foot lifted.
Fists in Yang fist must be tight.
Forehand be cross hindhand.
Form the "T" shape.
Fists first stay beside the navel. "Chi falls to Tan Tien as style changes, keep the three point
set in place."
Fist outward, high as heart, forefist "Hu Yen" upward while hindfist tsuans up to eyebrows
with "Hu Yen" downwards and elbows too.
Pao Chuan must have foot lifted up.
Forefist tsuans up as foot drops.
"Crossing steps" as fist and foot sink together.
Thus follows the hind foot on.

The Song of Heng Ch’uan
Forehand "Yang Fist", hind fist "Yin", hind hand just below the elbow keeps.
Foot lifts up as fists move, body be firm and "Chi" is settled.
Tongue curls up and air exhales, feet close as scissors when style changes.
Half turn the body while feet/hands move, hind hand twists up and thrusts out.
Steps down, fists "Yang" and three points set, nose and feet are specially linked.
Heng Chuan always keep hind fist "Yin".
Forehand "Yang Fist", elbows protect heart.
Left and right arms thrust out as bows. Feet/Hand sink together with tongue curled.

[brucereiter]

The Song of Heng Quan
Heng Quan is like a ball. Its nature is earth.
It creates Pi. It destroys Zuan. It is closed and curved.
Hook the arm making a slight triangle.
It governs the heart, stomach, lungs, spleens and kidneys.

A Discourse on Heng Quan.
Using the principles of mutual creating, earth can create metal. Therefore, Heng Quan can
create Pi Quan. Using the principies of mutual destroying, earth can destroy water.
Therefore, Heng Quan can destroy Zuan Quan. In speaking of the fíve elements as they
correspond to the internal organs, the spleen corresponds to earth. In speaking of the fíve
elements as they correspond to the external organs, then everything is connected to the
spleen. These are the principles of creating and destroying in the fíve elements. This is the
discourse on the study of Heng Quan.

Heng Quan

Rising Form - The front hand is a yang fist and the rear hand is a yin fist. The rear hand
moves out from under the ribs, when changing the hands and moving the hand out, the foot
rises, lower the body and twist and the qi will flow smoothly.
Changing Form - The changing form oí Heng Quan uses the "character ten" (+) step, the
body moves obliquely then the step is correct, the rear fist turns over to become a yang fist
and the three points are in a line, the nose and foot follow closely.

Nature of the Five Fists:
Pi Quan is like an axe and belongs to metal, Beng Quan is like an arrow and belongs to
wood, Zuan Quan is like lightning and belongs to water, Pao Quan is like a cannon and
belongs to fire, Heng Quan moves up and down like a spring and belongs to earth.

[Plymouth Rocks]

The overturning fist just before the other one drills upward is a hook.

[Foiling Fist]

The first strike of front ridge hand from outside to inside; can be preceded by an open palm upward-to-downward inward flip of the wrist, to sweep an area before the second rear hand strike.

Marital application can include:
i) using the upper extended hand as an
outward to inward ridge hand strike then using the
rear hand as an inside to outside block-strike.
ii) keep the upper first hand in a continuous palm down circle with the other
second lower hand in the same timed orbit in the opposite direction.

Movement and energies detailed in Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/axe-hand-hsing-i-internal-strength-workout/15063347

[YouKnowWho]

could someone here please help me to understand the combat application of the crossing fist in the hsing-yi earth form? to me it just looks like a cross block. wouldn't crossing take more time in combat than using say the metal or fire elements ? i am confused.

I had seen that Heng Chuan was used in a challenge fight:

- Your opponent uses low foot sweep at your leading leg (it's a fake). You raise your leg and let the sweep to pass through under your leg.
- Your opponent continues his body spinning and use a tornado kick at your head (fake low and attack high). You step in and use your Heng Chuan to knock on your opponent's waist "while his body is spinning in the air".

I assume Heng Chuan can also be used to against a TKD "spin hook kick" too. As long as your opponent's body is spinning, Heng Chuan will be a good counter for it.

[omarthefish]

Heng is the hardest of the elements to apply. You can pull a lot of stuff out of it; it's just not as obvious as the other four. I think the simplest application is the shot to the floating ribs or the takedown. Stick with those - keep it simple - and let the others come in good time. That's been my approach to it. Coming from a Shaolin background, it's easy for me to get all heady with crazy application variations. Xingyi has some crazy applications for sure, especially with the animals, but I find that a lot of its power as a combat art derives from the simple apps out of the elements.

How ironic the reply I like best would be from the Shaolin guy. :o

I admit it does sort of look like a Karate/TKD "inside-outside block" but I like it best as a simple punch or throw.

As a punch, it flies fairly straight in. It's just a palm up punch in an almost straight line. The horizontal part more about how it deflects or cuts the blocking limbs out of the way. Someone else on this thread referred to a snow-plough as an metaphor.

As a throw, it's basically the same as "Parting Wild Horses Mane" but with less waist turning and more forward advancing.

[dirtyrat]

the best app i've seen for crossing fist is an arm break; hyperextending the opponent's elbow with your shoulder. from there there are a couple takedowns one can use (i like a variation of a throw shuaijiao calls cracking) depending on how the opponent reacts or tries to resist.