Shaolin - Birthplace/Cradle of CKF ?

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Just want to hear how you feel about this:-

“10,000 cherries blossom on 1 tree, 10,000 Kung Fu started from Shaolin”.

I know this is an often discussed topic but still it would be nice to hear from members here…

Regards.

[Faruq]

I thought Shaolin was just the first well known martial arts haven to mix chi gong with gong fu, or in other words to spend hours on both as part of their daily regimine.

[jigahus]

I heard shaolin kung fu was taught by Bodhidarma who was a northern Indian Prince who knew Kalarippayat.

[Mano Mano]

There was no Shaolin fist before the Qing Dynasty only Shaolin staff.

[mantis108]

The more I look into history and the origin of "Kung Fu" (not simply martial arts), the more I find that Shaolin is NOT as people claim the craddle of CKF.

I believe the cultural element of Kung Fu is as ancient as the six cultivations - poetry, natural science, protocol/decorum, musics, philosophy (Yijing) and history.

From all kinds of artifacts, we know that Qigong practice and Daoist meditations existed during Han dynastymore than 2000 years ago not to mention fighting arts has been around since the dawn of Chinese civilization. Henan Shaolin temple didn't come to be more than 500 years after the fall of Han dynasty. So...

In reality, Chinese Kung Fu is a product of the thousands of years of physical and mental conflicts between the governments and various internal insurgents and external invasion forces . This makes up the bulk of the martial arts available today including the so called Shaolin Kung Fu. The idea that a union of religious believes and martial practices is in fact grass root movement especially towards the end of Ming and during Qing dynasty IMHO.

While I believe Kung Fu in general is based on Short Strike methodology (ie Fanziquan) from southern regions of China (ie Zhejiang, Jiangzu, etc) perhaps since Northern Song dynasty, it could not have gone into a new zenith of "internalizing" and systemizing without the development of XianTian Yi of Northern Song scholar, Shao Yong (1011-1077 CE) acting as the theoretical resource IMHO.

Just a thought

Warmest regards

Robert

[Fat Cat]

It would be extremely ignorant to believe that Shaolin is the origin of martial arts. Systematized violence existed in China for a long, long time before Buddhism.

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Robert, very good to have you back – starting to miss your inputs…

I got to say that, rationally, the chances of a singular site being the starting point of the myriads (600 plus) styles is highly suspect.

But in the course of my travel meeting Masters from various styles, Hakka, Fukien, Cantonese, Hainanese, Fuzhou, Northern, Internal and External, I keep hearing Shaolin credited as, if not source, at least playing a momentous role in the development and evolution of their respective styles.

A few schools I visited display scrolls with the phrase “Before anything else, Shaolin” very prominently.

My question is, are these folks wrong?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Faruq]

I've understood Shaolin to have been more or less an institute of higher martial learning, much like Oxford or Cambridge. Did Oxford or Cambridge invent mathematics, physics, or education in general? No. But are they havens of higher learning and scholarly achievement? Yes. And of couse, how many visiting travelers mixed their methods with Sil Lum methods before propagating them throughout the continent? So that's what I've understood Sil Lum Ji to have been, whose excellence in unarmed and armed combat is rooted in Boddhidarma's introduction of yoga, or hei gong into the daily curriculum way back when. That led to Shaolin's eventual procuction of legendary skills and fighters, and standing out among Chinese martial institutes. You mix meditation and gong fu and you've got a time bomb on your hands, or in the case of Mao Tse Tung, on his hands. And that's why he ordered the death of the gong fu masters during the cultural revolution.

[David Jamieson]

well kids, we've all heard a lot of things. :p

seriously though, there are some weird things in this thread and it's only a few posts in.

yikes!

shaolin's primary contribution to the world, and this is over and above any and all martial arts that may or may not have been practiced and nurtured there is Ch'an.

It is the Cradle of zen which is the huge importance of it. Martial arts are not the pinnacle of shaolin, they're an offshoot.

[Eric Ling]

well kids, we've all heard a lot of things. :p

seriously though, there are some weird things in this thread and it's only a few posts in.

yikes!

shaolin's primary contribution to the world, and this is over and above any and all martial arts that may or may not have been practiced and nurtured there is Ch'an.

It is the Cradle of zen which is the huge importance of it. Martial arts are not the pinnacle of shaolin, they're an offshoot.

Hi,

So can I assume that you don’t think Shaolin’s highest achievement is “Zen and Fist are one” unique philosophy?

Personally and humbly I think Shaolin’s greatest contribution is their unique interpretation of Ch’an via their “fists”.

If I were to use the typical delineations, I would even go as far as saying Shaolin invented “Moving Ch’an” as opposed to “Not Movng Ch’an”.

Regards.

Eric

[Faruq]

Nice, Eric!

[Mano Mano]

Personally my belief is that the empty hand fighting arts practiced at the temple were the same arts that were prevalent & practiced by people outside of the temple until the start of the Qing Dynasty such as, Mei Hua Quan, Tai Tzu Quan & Faan Tzi Quan for example.
You wouldn’t be very popular with the Qing if you practiced any martial art attributed as patriotism or to any patriotic Chinese heroes if rumours were going around that there might be Ming rebels living in the neighbourhood.

[mantis108]

Hi everybody,

Robert, very good to have you back – starting to miss your inputs…

I got to say that, rationally, the chances of a singular site being the starting point of the myriads (600 plus) styles is highly suspect.

But in the course of my travel meeting Masters from various styles, Hakka, Fukien, Cantonese, Hainanese, Fuzhou, Northern, Internal and External, I keep hearing Shaolin credited as, if not source, at least playing a momentous role in the development and evolution of their respective styles.

A few schools I visited display scrolls with the phrase “Before anything else, Shaolin” very prominently.

My question is, are these folks wrong?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Well, being Chinese, we have to be respectful to our elders and "never" challenge their wisdom, knowledge and all. ;) That is until we are of age, right?

Personally, I don't think Henan Shaolin would ever mind or refuse honor bestowed upon it especially in today's envirnoment. ;) The behavior and attitude of Henan Shaolin IMHO is consistent through out the ages. I am doubtful of it's Buddhist conviction if you ask me.

Now Southern Shaolin is a different ball game. I suspect that the CMA community in general confused the two. Southern Shaolin exists in the hearts and minds of the people. It does not need to be a physcial entity at all IMHO. Having said that it doesn't not exist without the underground soceities (ie, Hong Men, Tiandihui, etc.) and cults such as white lotus. If we look at the 13 Dieties within the Jiangxi Liumen Jiao (Wind Fire Hall), which I believe has something to do with the Fujian Baihe as well, we find that it's almost like a list of group members that includes Shaolin, White Lotus, Liuren, Tiandihui (represented by it's founder White Crane Immortal - Chen Jinnan.) The fact that many of the so called Southern Shaolin and Hakka styles (Bak Mei for one) worship at the alter of Wind Fire Hall seems to point to the significant of an unspoken "contract" between these groups underground or otherwise of the common goal of over turning the Qing and return the Ming. After all, all you need is an initial oath and it's binding till eternity. So...

As generation passes, the initial intent of the pact could have been lost as systems and styles spread just as Hong Men today is the the Hong Men that used to be. All we have left with are anecdotal evidences of a Southern Shaolin.

So Southern Shaolin, unlike it's northern counterpart, is IMHO a Justice League (pun intended) of sort. :D

Anyway, I am just tossing some ideas around. :) Hope to hear what you all think.

Warmest regards

Robert

[David Jamieson]

Hi,

So can I assume that you don’t think Shaolin’s highest achievement is “Zen and Fist are one” unique philosophy?

Personally and humbly I think Shaolin’s greatest contribution is their unique interpretation of Ch’an via their “fists”.

If I were to use the typical delineations, I would even go as far as saying Shaolin invented “Moving Ch’an” as opposed to “Not Movng Ch’an”.

Regards.

Eric


just Ch'an. period. it can be applied to anything. and is applied. a fixation on fist laws is not exactly what it's about, but I'm not saying that's not there. Obviously it is. It's just not in my opinion, the highest achievment of the order or the highest contribution to us moderns. I think the ch'an alone is more remarkable than any of the items one can apply it to. such as fighting, or painting, or dancing, or playing a piano... :)

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Robert, I really agree with your line of reasoning.

Southern CKF and Shaolin association supposed or otherwise, is really strong. Many senior Masters that I have personally interacted with are categorical with this relationship.

And many attribute the multiplicity to the 36 chambers of Southern Shaolin. If this was true, then perhaps, I will have an easier time reconciling the range of styles pointing to Shaolin as foundation.

Somehow, I suspect developments outside Shaolin walls; the name “Shaolin” became synonymous with groupings involved in political struggles during the Ching days.

The others groups you named could have all been part of the same picture.

So when you have Kung Fu schools from all over allied in the same cause and the name “Shaolin” being the rallying call, it’s not hard to understand the situation we have today.

And Robert, I am doing exactly what you described. Instead of just comparing histories and lineages, I am also examining deities and patron saints for more clues of origins and evolutions.

And “Wind and Fire Shens” is really a central concept in SE Asian Chinese psyche.

When I was a kid growing up in Singapore, everywhere I turned, I would either see the wind or the fire. Or the “Hung” or “Red Junk” and all sorts of “KongXi”.

I was told recently about an entire Hakka “kongxi” that was replanted in Kalimantan Indonesia from mainland intact. Planning to examine this soon.

Maybe we are all really descendents of the various “anti-ching” clans and acknowledging Shaolin as the unifying spirit.

Maybe I could be absolutely wrong.

Maybe I should just shut up here and go grab a Carlsberg……

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[DRleungjan]

Good topic,

I like to equate Siu Lam with New York. In New York we come in different races, creeds, and customs, but tell me that you can't notice a New Yorker when you se one!....lol

So I see Siu Lam as that...a melting pot. Siu Lam absorbed the best of what was prevalent in China with the outside inflences that were infused into the Chinese culture and brought out a unique brand of martial arts. Siu Lam gave Chinese martial arts it own individual stamp. In fact, I'd say that Siu Lam has been one of China's great gifts to the world.


Just a couple taels from yours truly,

DRleungjan :)

[Faruq]

So youse guys are saying that Ch'an is why Shaolin's fist techniques stood above everyone else's? Nice.