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Kevin Wallbridge
08-11-2001, 08:45 PM
I just thought I'd start a new thread on this topic as the "tai chi and chi kung" thread has brought it up.

My question is, does anyone know of any evidence of the use of distance skills by a master on an unwilling opponent?

I remember reading an article on a Kongjin charlatan who said the student had to be properly "primed" before they could be manipulated from a distance. My immediate thought was "great, if I don't learn that style I won't have to fear them," how daft.

Ueshiba may have thrown students around this way (re. Earth Dragon's comment) but I have to say that my personal experience with Aikidoka is that they have trouble dealing physically with an unwilling opponent, let alone using Qi to toss them around. One key aspect of the way they train is to follow a pattern of engagement, anything outside the pattern seems to be problematic. Didn't Robert Smith have a story about a skeptical newspaper reporter and an Aikido demostration in California?

I have had the opportunity to train Faqi/emmiting Qi in China for an extended period of time. My teachers took me into some remote Mountains in Sichuan. While my teachers and the monks that I met would talk about long distance Qi connections for healing and some crazy clairvoyant stuff, it was always in the context of a willing recipient.

I did get to see and experience some very freaky things, much of it more appropriate to Carlos Castaneda than the Taiji Classics. Yet I still feel that you had better be able to deal with a person on the physical level before you spend too much training time on the magical stuff.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

EARTH DRAGON
08-11-2001, 10:39 PM
hey kevin you bring up and good question, As I have said before my qi-gong teacher does many healings every day, some people are more open to her chi and get instant results, others feel better the next day and some go to one treatment and say they feel a little better but rely on their western doctor for further diagnosis. But again it seems as if the more open you are about it the more it works. Thats not saying it doesnt if you dont beleive as in hypnosis but I think a part of the mind can be manipulated if it wants to be. Most people that go to her hear about her through me and only speak with her on the phone and breifly when they see her , so Its not totally priming as you said but the eleviation of the concienceness to seek help in an unexplained way not common to untrained people........

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

passingthru
08-12-2001, 06:31 AM
because you have to find out for yourself. That finding out is dependent on perception, self knowledge (including being able to distinguish one's own from incoming energy), experience, observation, etc.

I have seen a willing student, or a suggestible person being physically affected or controlled by a teacher, or agreeing to act cooperative. But, a person can be unaware (innocent) of another's energy operative within. I have seen that too. Part of the teaching process often involves degrees of energy transfer. There is a master in Malaysia who openly advertises that he helps students achieve faster learning of energy circulation during his overseas Chi Kung seminars by doing just that.

When one considers healing or attack over distances, whether that be from an inch or several miles away as magical, I think that might be overlooking the importance of such phenomena. They are often, in fact, denied by the practioners within situations. Here, we are dealing with part of the essence of martial arts, the secret teachings. In fact, telepathic and telekinetic powers are not restricted to certain martial artists.

Circulation and control of energy and refining its connection with mind, projection of thoughts and energy to others, and the beat goes on. In my experience, this exists as a fact. No magic. Just aptitude and training, not dependent on character or anything high minded.
take care,

passingthru

YiLiQuan1
08-12-2001, 08:03 AM
Quite some time ago, the alleged Empty Force teacher (I will refrain from the use of the term master throughout this post, and I say alleged as I have only second hand knowledge of the facts of the story I am about to relate) performed a seminar at my home school at the invitation of the instructor there.

Many of our school's senior and junior students were present, as well as a number of visitors from other schools.

It has been reported to me that those persons expressing a desire to believe that such "powers" either exist or could exist through proper qigong training manifested varying degrees of effectiveness of said Empty Force techniques.

However, none of the members of our school were affected to any noticeable degree.

As our school does not believe, as standard doctrine, that qi can be transmitted for effect without the use of actual contact, and that our standard doctrine is to "extend" qi in all directions at all times, it has been hypothesized that IF such a skill CAN be developed, that it will be unreliable at best dependant upon the level of skill, training and susceptibility of the opponent.

We believe that, in all fairness to the aforementioned Empty Force teacher, and in an effort not to discount unduly things that are not readily measured with present scientific methods (since the definitive existence of qi itself has yet to be proven in the manner it is described by most martial schools), due to the nature of our qigong training and exercises, the "extension" of our qi hampers the ability of another person's qi to affect us without actual manual or pedal contact with our persons.

This having been said, IF such a skill DOES exist, the very disbelief presented by its detractors may be what is causing it to malfunction.

It has been shown, at least at a preliminary level, that the human consciousness has a direct effect on the existence or non-existence of matter in our universe. If sufficient people are present believing in the power of Empty Force, then they may well counteract, locally, the disbelief held by others, thus allowing said Empty Force to work.

Then again, maybe our theory is bull****.

Just my 2 yen...

(And I have met the aforementioned Empty Force teacher via chat and email, and I have to say that he is an intelligent man, not seeming to be the sort wrapped up in fraudulent behavior. I might also add that our theory was presented to him briefly, at which time he admitted that Empty Force does not work all the time on every person, and that our theory may well hold true. Or not.)

Matt Stone

Fu-Pow
08-12-2001, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> some people are more open to her chi and get instant results, others feel better the next day and some go to one treatment and say they feel a little better but rely on their western doctor for further diagnosis.[/quote]

There is a name for this phenomenon in western medicine...it is called the placebo effect.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

EARTH DRAGON
08-12-2001, 09:20 PM
please further explain your self fu pow. for it is not a mind over matter type situation, it has to deal with the seriousness of the illness the pressure of the dermis/epidermis and the strength of the facia of conective tissue. That allows topical penatration. But I may be wrong so again please elaborate...

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Censored]
08-12-2001, 09:39 PM
May I suggest that the most important lesson in "empty force" partner training is not in the issuing/sending, but in the interpreting/receiving; i.e. recognizing intent (of attack) before it has been physically manifested, and neutralizing it before it reaches a significant or unmanageable level of power?

Can this be the true meaning of "...once my opponent moves, I move first"? :cool:

bamboo_ leaf
08-12-2001, 10:11 PM
very good grass hopper.
intent leads the chi, the body follows.
very simple, very hard to do.
TC and some other arts directly address this.
but i think that many misinterpet the meanings and have no good examples to see the concept put to use.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

Zhin
08-12-2001, 11:06 PM
I have experienced what some might term empty force with my former teacher. It was most definitely not a placebo effect, since at the time I had not concept of what empty force was. I had also only been a student of this teacher for two weeks.

My teacher said something along the lines of "I'll show you something interesting" and then quite simply I felt as if I was being pulled off my feet, towards my teacher, to the point where I was forced to take a step.

Can this teacher use this ability to attack in a combat fashion? I dunno. Could they have made me move if I didn't want to? I dunno, it was too surprising.

Kevin Wallbridge
08-13-2001, 04:38 AM
Still not what I'm talking about.

[censored] and Bamboo Leaf, what I'm actually asking about is distance skills, not receiving. In the other thread the discussion was about throwing or moving people without touch.

Shin, I'd not call you an unwilling opponent where your former teacher is concerned. When your former teacher says "let me show you something" you are primed and open.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

Zhin
08-13-2001, 07:54 AM
So what your saying is, anytime someone walks up and says "Let me show you something" you are primed and ready to have someone trick you?

I fail to see how I was primed to believe in something that I didn't know was possible until it happened to me. It's not like my teacher made any magical gestures or anything like that.

Nexus
08-13-2001, 08:01 AM
recall some of my above comments by re-emphasizing that I do not disbelieve in this so called empty force, I simply wish to see it in action and be sure of its "realness?"

For those of you who are certain of its validity you are indeed the fortunate ones to have found the true empty force skills out there.

If you have any more information, please post it.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Kevin Wallbridge
08-13-2001, 05:58 PM
Shin, I fail to se how you can miss that a prior relationship takes us into different ground from dealing with an unknown assailant. I'm not talking about magical gestures or hypnosis. The logic is that you are not thinking "I kill you now," you are probably waiting to be taught something. A rather different mind-set from combat. Much like the mind-set that led you to take what I said in a negative way and respond defensively. No offence meant. If you felt about your former teacher like you felt about my response to you how well would empty force work? This is more the context I'm talking about.

So, again, does anyone know of an example of distance skills working on an unwilling opponent? Even Dong Haichuan and Chen Fake had to touch to perform their throws.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

Nexus
08-13-2001, 07:03 PM
Chen Fa Ke only did touching to perform his throws for the general public but for his private students he taught them distance qi attacks? We'll never know. But truthfully searching out that type of phenomena to try and get the easy way out is not a good way to entertain the martial arts. I have found that there is no way out of hard work and practice when it comes to the Martial Arts if you truly want to attain mastery.

Good Luck!

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Esteban
08-13-2001, 07:54 PM
Hi All,

I'm agnostic about empty force. I don't konw. Something happens; no one (who knows) explains exactly what it is (publicly). Assuming it exists, I'd like to see it demonstrated on an inanimate object --to eliminate the issue of psychology, susceptibility, etc. Instead of seeing it applied on someone, I'd like to see it prevent a student/victim from smacking the instructor. Note, I said "prevent," not "protect." If it requires the student to be sensitized --by training-- then maybe such training should be avoided. BTW, I don't think the people who teach or demonstrate such a skill are being dishonest. The students are being helpful, but they have a lot invested. Anyway, it seems like acquiring the skill would take a great deal of time. There's a lot of basic stuff that is worth time working on before going for the empty force skills. Just my opinion. Oh, is this an example of what you were talking about?
See the last one with Frank, I think.
http://www2.thecia.net/users/karenvs/phils/phils.htm

Respects,
Esteban

Nexus
08-13-2001, 07:58 PM
always made me laugh. Especially the big guy who keeps spinning his body around to maintain his balance.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Kevin Wallbridge
08-13-2001, 08:08 PM
Actually I train in the Chen Fake lineage (my teacher is Ma Hong's Canadian representative), so what he did with inner door students is very much a part of what we study.

However, the application of empty force distance skills (how do you make an underline or bold text here?) against students is not what I'm asking about. Thanks for the link Esteban, but thats not what I mean. No teachers demonstrating on students, or former students, is that clear?

Does anyone know of any master who has applied empty force distance skills on an unwilling opponent? Even an anecdote would be helpful.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

Nexus
08-13-2001, 08:11 PM
You really want to believe in it! Why not instead believe in <u>yourself!</u>

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Esteban
08-13-2001, 08:33 PM
Hi Kevin,

I understand what you mean by an unwilling opponent, but could you give me an idea of what you would expect to happen? Wouldn't the opponent not be able to tell what happened to him? Is "empty force" something you feel can be used apart from form or technique? Again, I don't know, but I think if someone manages to get to Chen Fake's physical level, it's an accomplishment --and, given the amount of time he practiced his form, gaining any other skill at all --or even keeping a girlfriend-- would be a massive achievement. http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/taijiquanCFK_new1.htm

Best,
Esteban

Zhin
08-13-2001, 09:19 PM
So let me understand this...

After two weeks, which breaks down as one two hour class, and half of a second, in which I learned the universal post stance, I became susceptible to mental controls to the point where I could be pulled of my feet without a verbal suggestion beyond let me show you something?

In that case I need to go back and study hypnosis from my old teacher and forget about tai chi.

Kevin Wallbridge
08-13-2001, 09:32 PM
Well, I think that the point that has been made is that, while some people would like to believe in the possibilty of distance skills, they don't really exist. What brought this on was the thread I referred to at the beginning, where people where claiming the reality of it. I started this thread to give anyone who knew an instance of confirmation a chance to say so. I don't believe in it, and I was hoping that someone who did could give evidence as to why.

I do believe that pursuing crap like mystical kongjing skills "because my teacher could do it to me" is a waste of a practitioners time and contributes to generally poor impression of the internal arts by non-practitioners of the styles. Slavish devotion to sensational experiences will keep the internals out on the fringes of the martial arts world. When I say that I practice Taiji and the response is "I'm not interested in that Hippy stuff," then I know that we have a long way to go. How will we bring up the level of our arts if we are not taken seriously? Negative social perceptions keep our numbers down and so retard everyones level.

In China they have the advantage of higher densities of skilled practitioners, even considering the ravages of the last 150 years. How many generations deep is your training group? We count ourselves fortunate if there is one or two moderately skilled assistants to the teacher.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Censored]
08-13-2001, 10:42 PM
1) There are graduations of what are are calling "empty force". The ability to throw someone with a thought, is only an extreme development of what all decent practicioners can do. That is, maintain superior position through increasing subtle movements, which of course are directed by Yi and supported by Qi.

If it does exist, and it is subtle, then of course it will be difficult to observe. There may in fact be zero indication that it came into play; you only notice that a person was defeated, perhaps in a ridiculously "easy" manner. We've all seen this happen before; the question is "did we see what we were looking at?"

2) If you want to train sending in a martial context, you need a partner to receive, and vice versa. To try and examine one without referencing the other is irrational. It is like a house, which is defined by its doors, windows, and empty spaces. The relationship is at least as significant as its members.

This is all theory, of course. :cool:

EARTH DRAGON
08-14-2001, 12:41 AM
is what your saying that you would beleive in empty force if some one told you of a seniario where a person was struck with chi with out knowing it by a qi-gong or tai chi master? if it is as simple as that then you should now beleive! and realize that your basis of conjunction is with the people only on this board, most old masters who have such skill and have done what you are asking, do not log on to the internet!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Nexus
08-14-2001, 12:53 AM
You poss this empty force, it won't be so ego-based as it is for most people who "want" the skill. It will likely just be a skill you have developed.

A proverb I snatched from a fantasy book goes something like this:

Two men are disccusing how sometimes things that seem magical are not really magic. And how magic does not exist, only tricks. And what appears to be a trick to someone, to you is just a skill.

Man A asks Man B, do you know how to juggle?

Man B says, 'Yes'

Man A gives man B 3 oranges.

Man A says, 'Juggle those oranges'

Man B begins to juggle them.

Man A says, 'Now, juggle all of them in one hand'

Man B tries to and the oranges drop to the ground.

Man A says, 'To a young child, your ability to juggle 3 oranges will appear to be magic. To you, you know it is only a trick(skill). When you learn to juggle 3 oranges using no hands at all you will completely understand this concept.'

Hopefully this sheds some light on this subject of Empty Force.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Ky-Fi
08-14-2001, 03:08 AM
Just because there's a name for it in CMA, and some people devloped training methods and claimed skill in it, doesn't mean it was ever actually effective. Let's not forget that there were very specific training methods and sincere belief in the ability to make one's self impervious to bullets during the Boxer Rebellion. That didn't work overly well, and that seems like a more realistic skill to me than kong jing.

Timpkin
08-14-2001, 08:20 PM
Sifu Frantzis has an awesome book out called The Power of Internal Martial Arts and he takes a couple of paragraphs to comment on Empty Force that all here may find interesting:

"A controversial subject often connected to I Chuan is the training technique of Kong Jin, or "Empty Force". In this technique, teachers move their students physically either backward, up in th air, or down to the ground by a wave of their hands from a distance, all without physcially touching them. Unfortunately, although this works well with students, many incorrectly assume it can be done to strangers against their will, which, it can safely be said, rarely happens. Extensive research was done on this subject in Beijing to find out if empty force would work on uncooperative martial art experts-it did not. However, the technique of empty force chi training can, in fact, be useful for moving chi therapeutically to clear blocked energy channels."

"Empty force is a training technique whose purpose is to sensitize practitioners to the movement of chi in themselves, in their opponents, in the space between themselves and their opponents, and in the psychic energy generated in combat. It aims to empower the recipient to be able to become sensitive and respond appropriately to the chi of others, whether during physical contact, or unimpeded in the gap before they touch your flesh or hit you. It requires cooperation at the psychic level between student and teacher, and often the histrionics seen during the encounter with empty force are incredibly exaggerated. The purpose of this exaggeration is simply to generate a sensitivity to energy and to be able to use the sensitivity to respond to a physical stimulus in real time, in a physical confrontation, rather than to gain the magical ability to knock King Kong down with an invisible force from a wave of your fingers."

Love, Peace, Chicken Grease,
Timpkin

cagey_vet
08-14-2001, 09:13 PM
what the...??

www2.thecia.net/users/karenvs/phils/FongFrank.mpg


you have GOT to be kidding me....
i wish these people were closer to me,
as i would love to see if some guy could
manipulate me via thin air, or even with
an object between us.
that kid who got all goofy should be
ashamed and embarassed.... reminds me of
cult behavior. do anything to make the
head guy look good at all costs, even if
it makes you look bad.

where is this?? if i am EVER in that area
i will certainly show up, and be in total
sarcastic mode because i HAVE to see if it
is real.
i have studied internal martial arts for better
than 10 years now and if something like this is
real, then i wanna know about it.

Daniel Madar
08-14-2001, 09:32 PM
I went and watched the other videos that were on that page, and I'm pretty sure the one you posted was a joke.

I enjoyed the other ones, where the guys went sliding across the floor too. Of course, it was a nicely polished tile floor, and they are wearing the almost tractionless "tai chi slippers".

Merciless is Mercy.

Monkey
08-14-2001, 10:41 PM
Kevin, you wrote...
Does anyone know of any master who has applied empty force distance skills on an unwilling opponent? Even an anecdote would be helpful.

Most American internal martial artists have heard of Sifu Share Lew. Sifu Lew is an actual temple taught Taoist monk. He spent 14 years in the Gee Lum Gee Monastary in Guangun , China.
For more info on him ry this link...
http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/martarts/lew.html

About 7 years ago he was in New York City giving a Chi-gong seminar that was attended by many of that cities Chinese Sifus.
One of the sifus was famous for his horse stance, which he claimed no one had ever pushed him out of. He asked Sifu Lew if he would like to try to move him from his horse stance. Sifu Lew said sure, I'll try.
The chinese sifu got into his stance and invited Sifu Lew to walk over to him and try.
Sifu Lew said he didn't need to walk the 10 feet to the man and that he would try from where he was. He pointed his right palm at the other sifu and after a few breaths the other sifu yelled for Sifu Lew to stop and lept backwards out of his stance.
So, yeah, a top level guy like Sifu Lew can affect a non-cooperating person.

EARTH DRAGON
08-15-2001, 06:20 AM
agian many of you have not seen high level qi-gong masters manipulate people's energy feilds (chi). I and my qi-gong master have put on demonstrations all over the U.s, she is the 3rd highest ranked qi-gong master in the world and can take out your left side with a swip of her finger, willing or unwilling. kevin please check out my web site and click potos/masters and see the picture of me inserting a 9 inch steel wire needle through my thigh, without the slighest pain or even a drop of blood. will this work on a noncoopertive person? only if the have chi that can be manipulated, moved or redirected! who has chi? anyone or thing thats alive....

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Braden
08-15-2001, 06:40 AM
Thank god we have the International Qi Gong Master Ranking Senate to keep track of these wonderful individuals!

Esteban
08-15-2001, 07:55 AM
Hi Earth Dragon,

"she is the 3rd highest ranked qi-gong master in the world"

Are you free to say who numbers one and two are?

Best,
Esteban

Repulsive Monkey
08-15-2001, 09:50 AM
Yes well, B.K. Frantzis is by no means an expert on the subject. I his book IS full of information but is limited to the point that im sure a lot of the information in there is aquired by other means than his own experience. I hate to be this blunt (cos I never lower myself on this forum to this level usually) but I don't particularly rate Mister Frantzis. He does have skill but I feel that his reputation is a little over-inflated. How can one take his word for it when he has hardly experienced it himself. Thats just like saying I don't like America that much, even though I've never been there but i've read a bout it. Sorry just having a rant.

Crimson Phoenix
08-15-2001, 11:38 AM
C'mon, no disrespect but how can you confuse inserting some steel through your thigh and qigong? That can be seen in many religious/mystical trances, it's impressive indeed but only made possible through anatomical feats of the human body and more important through functions of the brain that we are only starting to get aware of...without trying to look for esoterical things, there is at least 60-70% of the human brain's functions that are unknown to us and that will definitely give us some surprises when we start finding out about them...But on the other hand qigong also implies a heavy use of mind...so maybe it is qigong...
As for my left side, well women knoww howw to take it from me pretty well heheheheheheheh
No disrespect intended once again, but I just wanted to share my views on this controversial issue...

Daniel Madar
08-15-2001, 07:22 PM
Okay, now that's getting a little out of hand.

Exactly how do you qualify that statement? Who ranks her third? What tests were used?

As for the metal through the thigh, that is actually a fairly easily reproducible trick.

And finally, what is your teacher's name? If she's third in the world, I'm sure I've heard of her.

Merciless is Mercy.

Braden
08-15-2001, 08:46 PM
Anyone else notice a big overlap between "high-level qigong" and stage magic?

Daniel Madar
08-15-2001, 09:33 PM
actually, what I notice is an overlap between people who can't differentiate the two, even if they are purported qi gong practitioners.

Merciless is Mercy.

Braden
08-15-2001, 10:08 PM
*chuckle* It was a sarcastic comment.

Daniel Madar
08-15-2001, 10:11 PM
I knew that. :P

Merciless is Mercy.

EARTH DRAGON
08-16-2001, 11:43 PM
To answer your questions I will first make you realize that we are americans and know very little about qi-gong! you may think you know but do you really ? my teacher has devoted her life, 47 years to mastery from her grand mother and father. this is what makes her third highest ranked! it is the family art of (jin gong tzu li gung) qi-gong.it is a very famous stlye in china but becuse you guys live in the US if you say you've never heard of it! I wonder why? how many people out here have over 20 years of qi-gong training from a master? please raise your hands... but yet becuse of your limited knowledge of a chinese art which we know so little about you agrue or doubt my teachers skill? !!!......well I will explain it to you for agruments sake, her grand mother learned the art from a taoist monk who lived his life on the wudang mountains in the jia yi temple. he taught her the art as a favor from her father, a request from a man that saved his life when he was a boy. She then taught her son who then taught his daughter and then she moved to the US in 1995 . her name is yen chu fang. The reason you have not heard of her is you probalbly have never been to china, but her family name and art is by far one of the highest level qi-gong in existence today! so please becuse you have not heard of her please do not think that becuse she has no web site or school or makes money teaching she is not who she says is .. for it is our ignorance of qi-gong that is the biggest secret of all.... as for magic, I did not mention that feat to impress you or make you belive in what I say . I dont care. it was kevin who started this thread that I was trying to explian what I meant. please do not think I'm being harsh but it seems as there are very narrow minded people out here, who dont beleive in anything that they dont know of. ....next you'll try to tell me that chi doesnt exist!
let me ask you this have you heard of a master named shu ming? if you have not go ask your shifu ( if they are from china) and they will tell you of a man who teaches in bejing park that is very very famous for his chi level and tai chi. but I guess you've never heard of him either so that must mean he is not as good as the thousands of people that wait in line to learn from him.....all becuse you dont know him!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

EARTH DRAGON
08-16-2001, 11:50 PM
As for the needle "trick" as you put it, please feel free to try it for your self, just focus your chi and slide a sharp steele needle through your quatracept muscle an out the other side. nothing to it right? let me know how it goes.if in deed its a trick then their is nothing to it.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Daniel Madar
08-17-2001, 12:10 AM
Well that's true, I've never been to china.

Let me ask you this, My old teacher learned her qi gong from her grandmother too. It's also a family system. It's several hundred years old. She also studied Taiji under Ma Liu Liang and Hao Sao Liu. Where does that place her on the charts? She studied Bagua from Chi Xi Shin. Is she over your teacher?

I'm not trying to be a jerk her--well maybe I am--my point is that I'm sure your teacher is great, but throwing out completely random statements like "third in the world" will never help you in an argument. Maybe you should limit yourself to really good.

The world is a big enough place that there's always someone better out there. And sometimes better just means talented in a different way.

Merciless is Mercy.

Nexus
08-17-2001, 12:11 AM
truly be the 3rd best qi gong master in the world. It would take a great amount of skill to keep you connected to the ground Earth Dragon as it seems your ego is always trying to carry you away.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

EARTH DRAGON
08-17-2001, 05:57 AM
when I say 3rd highest ranked in the world that only means in her art or stlye of qi-gong. maybe I didnt make myself clear or maybe did not explian it correctly. I am not trying to win an arguement just help kevin understand that it is possible to apply chi from a distance.but fact is fact.
As for nexus arent you the guy who told a young student who was looking for a tai chi teacher to walk in to a school and attack the teacher!!!! yet you ridicule me about my ego? lets not throw stones here O.K now back to the topic.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

bamboo_ leaf
08-17-2001, 06:26 AM
I like it here because the topics are interesting and the people posting seem to know how to listen, ask questions and share experiences / ideas. Please lets not reduce this to the level as some of the other places here.

leaf out

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

Crimson Phoenix
08-17-2001, 12:34 PM
OK, you might be good at inserting steel in your thighs but not words in your mind: check out my post, nowhere it is written the word "trick", it came from your own mouth (Freud would have loved that!)...nowehere I said it was easy, I just underlined the mechanisms rendering it possible...as a matter of fact, the hindu guys entering a trance that are able to do that (I saw it in Malaysia) CANNOT do it when they snap out of the trance. And for sure, I couldn't on the spot take a steel needle and insert it in my thigh, if that makes you happy ;-)
My only point in the post was that I don't consider that being qigong, but even in the end I said that it both required the specific usage of mind so I wasn't even sure this wasn't a qigong of some sort.
So before over reacting and getting at me with this "I can do that, can you" attitude, read posts carefully...
No disrespect, just some clarifications.

Phoenix

Daniel Madar
08-17-2001, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the clarification, you really did not make that clear.

Merciless is Mercy.

Braden
08-17-2001, 09:05 PM
bamboo_leaf: there's open-mindedness and then there's letting people go unchallenged when they make statements which are patently absurd, seriously detrimental to the arts as a whole, and falling upon a multitude of ears that don't know any better.

Scott R. Brown
08-18-2001, 12:02 AM
I have to agree with Kevin’s assertion. I do not have confidence that there is any veracity to distance qi projection for the purpose of defending oneself from aggressive assault. I have seen some very interesting demonstrations of qi projection however.

Over 20 years ago, I was an apprentice and friend of an American Indian Medicine Man. We used to practice energy projection with a wadded piece of paper. We would stand relatively close, approximately 8-12 feet apart and throw a wadded up piece of paper at one and other. At that distance, it is nearly impossible to miss. We were able to deflect the paper wad 80%-90% of the time. The thrower would attempt to disrupt the qi field of the defender. The defender would attempt to shield himself, cloud the mind, or disrupt perceptions of the thrower. On some occasions we would focus our energy on the wad. I found that disrupting the other’s mind was more consistently effective than putting up a qi shield. We never brought the skill into an aggressive situation, but it provides some interesting possibilities.

On another occasion, we were both sitting on his couch. We were not talking, just sitting. This is not unusual behavior for spiritually oriented American Indians. Sitting quietly i

Scott R. Brown
08-18-2001, 12:33 AM
I have to agree with Kevin’s assertion. I do not have confidence that there is any veracity to distance qi projection for the purpose of defending oneself from aggressive assault. I have seen some very interesting demonstrations of qi projection however.

Over 20 years ago, I was an apprentice and friend of an American Indian Medicine Man. We used to practice energy projection with a wadded piece of paper. We would stand relatively close, approximately 8-12 feet apart and throw a wadded up piece of paper at one and other. At that distance, it is nearly impossible to miss. We were able to deflect the paper wad 80%-90% of the time. The thrower would attempt to disrupt the qi field of the defender. The defender would attempt to shield himself, cloud the mind, or disrupt perceptions of the thrower. On some occasions we would focus our energy on the wad. I found that disrupting the other’s mind was more consistently effective than putting up a qi shield. We never brought the skill into an aggressive situation, but it provides some interesting possibilities.

On another occasion, we were both sitting on his couch. We were not talking, just sitting. This is not unusual behavior for spiritually oriented American Indians. Sitting quietly is a form of meditation. While we were sitting, I felt dizzy for a brief moment. I did not make any movements nor did I mention my experience. My friend said, “Hmmm?”. I said, “What?” My friend said, “I just made the room spin”.

Again, this example does not involve any hostile or aggressive assault, but we were not in communication nor were we touching one and other.

Having said this, I ask about this topic, “So what?” If it is possible to project qi for the benefit of self-defens

Scott R. Brown
08-18-2001, 01:42 AM
I have to agree with Kevin’s assertion. I do not have confidence that there is any veracity to distance qi projection for the purpose of defending oneself from aggressive assault. I have seen some very interesting demonstrations of qi projection however.

Over 20 years ago, I was an apprentice and friend of an American Indian Medicine Man. We used to practice energy projection with a wadded piece of paper. We would stand relatively close, approximately 8-12 feet apart and throw a wadded up piece of paper at one and other. At that distance, it is nearly impossible to miss. We were able to deflect the paper wad 80%-90% of the time. The thrower would attempt to disrupt the qi field of the defender. The defender would attempt to shield himself, cloud the mind, or disrupt perceptions of the thrower. On some occasions we would focus our energy on the wad. I found that disrupting the other’s mind was more consistently effective than putting up a qi shield. We never brought the skill into an aggressive situation, but it provides some interesting possibilities.

On another occasion, we were both sitting on his couch. We were not talking, just sitting. This is not unusual behavior for spiritually oriented American Indians. Sitting quietly is a form of meditation. While we were sitting, I felt dizzy for a brief moment. I did not make any movements nor did I mention my experience. My friend said, “Hmmm?”. I said, “What?” My friend said, “I just made the room spin”.

Again, this example does not involve any hostile or aggressive assault, but we were not in communication nor were we touching one and other.

Having said this, I ask about this topic, “So what?” If it is possible to project

Scott R. Brown
08-18-2001, 02:20 AM
I have to agree with Kevin’s assertion. I do not have confidence that there is any veracity to distance qi projection for the purpose of defending oneself from aggressive assault. I have seen some very interesting demonstrations of qi projection however.

Over 20 years ago, I was an apprentice and friend of an American Indian Medicine Man. We used to practice energy projection with a wadded piece of paper. We would stand relatively close, approximately 8-12 feet apart and throw a wadded up piece of paper at one and other. At that distance, it is nearly impossible to miss. We were able to deflect the paper wad 80%-90% of the time. The thrower would attempt to disrupt the qi field of the defender. The defender would attempt to shield himself, cloud the mind, or disrupt perceptions of the thrower. On some occasions we would focus our energy on the wad. I found that disrupting the other’s mind was more consistently effective than putting up a qi shield. We never brought the skill into an aggressive situation, but it provides some interesting possibilities.

On another occasion, we were both sitting on his couch. We were not talking, just sitting. This is not unusual behavior for spiritually oriented American Indians. Sitting quietly is a form of meditation. While we were sitting, I felt dizzy for a brief moment. I did not make any movements nor did I mention my experience. My friend said, “Hmmm?”. I said, “What?” My friend said, “I just made the room spin”.

Again, this example does not involve any hostile or aggressive assault, but we were not in communication nor were we touching one and other.

Having said this, I ask about this topic, “So what?” If it is possible to project qi for the benefit of self-defense, is it worth the effort to develop? I am reminded of a Japanese story of two young samurai:

Two young Samurai had reached the age when they would travel throughout the country to test their martial skills. They had grown up together and were close friends. They agreed to meet in two years to compare their experiences. When the appointed time had arrived the two met. Each was on opposite sides of a canal. The canal was quite wide, 50-100 feet. Waving they each greeted the other. One said to the other, “Watch this”, and he leapt across the canal. Once on the same side as his friend, he explained that he had met up with a mountain ascetic and that he had spent the two years learning to accomplish the amazing feat of leaping. As they were conversing, they approached a ferryman. The one friend took a small coin out of his purse and paid the ferryman to take them back across the canal. The point of the story is that, the one young samurai spent two years learning a skill that could be bought for a mere pittance.

Anyone thinking that learning the projection of qi will significantly benefit their lives is deluded. While there is still some disagreement about the benefits of qi among scientists, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it in any way. We know of its existence by its effects much as we know of electricity’s existence because of it

wujidude
08-18-2001, 03:02 AM
Earth Dragon:

Shu Ming's fairly opaque book was translated into English by Thomas Cleary. I don't know that he is all that famous or highly-regarded in China, however. The "highest-ranking" qigong "master in the world today is His Ultimateness Li, of Falun Gong fame.

Scott R. Brown
08-18-2001, 03:16 AM
I have to agree with Kevin’s assertion. I do not have confidence that there is any veracity to distance qi projection for the purpose of defending oneself from aggressive assault. I have seen some very interesting demonstrations of qi projection however.

Over 20 years ago, I was an apprentice and friend of an American Indian Medicine Man. We used to practice energy projection with a wadded piece of paper. We would stand relatively close, approximately 8-12 feet apart and throw a wadded up piece of paper at one and other. At that distance, it is nearly impossible to miss. We were able to deflect the paper wad 80%-90% of the time. The thrower would attempt to disrupt the qi field of the defender. The defender would attempt to shield himself, cloud the mind, or disrupt perceptions of the thrower. On some occasions we would focus our energy on the wad. I found that disrupting the other’s mind was more consistently effective than putting up a qi shield. We never brought the skill into an aggressive situation, but it provides some interesting possibilities.

On another occasion, we were both sitting on his couch. We were not talking, just sitting. This is not unusual beh

Crimson Phoenix
08-18-2001, 12:21 PM
Daniel, I knew you'd like it hehehehehehe

Nexus
08-19-2001, 02:25 AM
I enjoyed what you had to say, wish I could have read all of what you had to say!

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Wongsifu
08-19-2001, 02:29 AM
interesting conversation and i have no part in it hmmmm glad i wondered over to the internal board.
first i would like to say i dont know much about the chinese language but empty force is not lin kong jing, empty force is what the opponent feels when you are good at tai ji chuan.There is an emptyness that fills him and the area between you and him when he starts to get aggersive towards you thus making him feel the need to attack so you may reverse the energy back to him.

about lin kong jing though it is possible on an unwilling opponent the problem is it is so difficult to perform its worthless contemplating it, it takes at least 10+ years including of celibacy to perform it in a decent context.I have been practising a moderate amount of time, meditating and not eating meat for about 10 years and martial arts practise for almost that long, intensive internal for the past year, i have been able to apply ling kong jing pitifully but enough to make myself know it exists, i did it on my girlfriend who did not know what i was about to do , i told her to lcose her eeyes and relax, i was about 1 metre away from here, and i basically felt her eenrgy field, felt the one around my hands, made my hand the same polarity as her field, and pushed and pulled, and she moved, her eyes were shut and she didnt know what i was gonna do.

party trick
yes

method of self defense
maybe in 10 more years

but it does exist its the same principal we use when we first begin to feel energy and we make a ball of chi between our hands and compress it.
anyhow take care...

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 07:13 AM
Anyone thinking that learning the projection of qi will significantly benefit their lives is deluded. While there is still some disagreement about the benefits of qi among scientists, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it in any way. We know of its existence by its effects much as we know of electricity

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 07:35 AM
Anyone thinking that learning the projection of qi will significantly benefit their lives is deluded. While there is still some disagreement about the benefits of qi among scientists, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it in any way. We know of its existence by its effects much as we know of electricity’s existence because of its effects. However, I have not seen even anecdotal evidence that convinces me that the time spent to develop qi gives any greater benefit than eating healthy foods and exercising provides. I can be convinced that the meditational aspects can benefit an individuals stress levels, but so can other forms of mental exercise. Qi practioners do not live significantly longer than anyone else. While it is a romantic notion to be able to propel someone across the room from a distance after 20-30 years of practice, I can go down to my local gun store and fork out $450 for a .44 magnum that will do the same thing and I only have to wait 30 days to reap its benefits. I know what some will say, a .44 Magnum only kills while developing qi can be used to propel without injury. Good you wait 20-30 years, spend innumerable hours better spent on family and self-cultivation, to be able to defend yourself and your family I will wait 30 days and we will see who survives and who has a family and friends.

I know I seem rather harsh and this discussion is as interesting to me as everyone else, but flights of fantasy and romantic notions about super human abilities distracts people from what is truly important in life. When we die and go to wherever we go and are asked, “What did you do with your life”? Are we going to say, “I wasted my life learning to throw people across the room from a distance” or are we going to say, “I learned to love, express my feelings appropriately, to be kind and generous, raised a good healthy family and taught my children and grandchildren how to do these things as well”.

Some will insist that this type of cultivation is still worth the effort and I do not fault you. Everyone has their own path. I am merely exercising my right to express my thoughts. I still respect the opinions and rights of those of you who will disagree with me and I wish you good luck.

Sincerely,

Scott

Esteban
08-19-2001, 07:52 AM
Hi,

is this person saying something similar to what you are saying?
www.mindboxing.com/frames.html (http://www.mindboxing.com/frames.html)

Respects,
Esteban

Esteban
08-19-2001, 08:10 AM
Hi,

oops, forgot to give equal time to these. Which is most like what you mean?
http://www.masterthepower.com/

www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/may86/emptyforce/emptyforce.html (http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/may86/emptyforce/emptyforce.html)

www.taichiworld.net/Articles/empty_force.htm (http://www.taichiworld.net/Articles/empty_force.htm)

www.mawn.net/kongjing.htm (http://www.mawn.net/kongjing.htm)

www.student.city.ac.uk/~dy706/taiji5.html (http://www.student.city.ac.uk/~dy706/taiji5.html)

Good hunting,
Esteban

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 08:42 AM
Anyone thinking that learning the projection of qi will significantly benefit their lives is deluded. While there is still some disagreement about the benefits of qi among scientists, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it in any way. We know of its existence by its effects much as we know of electricity’s existence because of its effects. However, I have not s

Repulsive Monkey
08-19-2001, 10:43 AM
unfortunately when you try and give creedence to this topic by determining the validation of Qi only by those in the world of science, you immediately down-trade your argument and it's credibility. Sorry if this seems like an insult but in fact its not. Why oh why should we expect scientists to be the authourity especially in an area which with their edifying methodology is probably inexerpienced to research it! Don't get me wrong science is vital to all and to understanding the world we live in (up to a certain point), but it's just like trying to use a German only translator to transcribe text written in French. I'm not sure that science does take the correct approach in investigating this area. Obviously I could be wrong, but how does one quantify Qi? Can science quantify Spirituality? I feel they mey be using the wrong tools for this job. Just an opinion mind you!!

Repulsive Monkey
08-19-2001, 11:04 AM
I take it that the comment about Mister Li being "the highest ranking Qi-Gong Master in the world today" can be taken completely in jest? I think my irony recognition reserves must be low today. Anyone in this day and age who could make such a claim immediately negates themselves from the so-called running as they obviously are devoid of any modicum of humility. I quote the Tao-Te Ching "..those who speak of the Tao do not know of it, those who know of it do not speak of the Tao". And my favourite line in the whole edict "the Sage does nothing , but nothing is left undone".

wujidude
08-19-2001, 05:04 PM
Yes, Monkey, the remark about Mr. Li/Falun Gong was made in jest.

Nexus
08-19-2001, 06:33 PM
I don't know how long the below image will stay available to be viewed but for now take a look:

http://a1428.g.akamai.net/7/1428/1224/1/media.admonitor.net/creatives/8967/49537.gif

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 09:15 PM
Repulsive Monkey,

I share your distrust of the modern scientific method. I agree with you that just because modern science has not validated the existence of something does not mean it does not exist. The earth was still spherical regardless of what science thought when it was believed the earth was flat. However, anecdotal evidence is an even poorer measure of reality, which is why we attempt to use the scientific method in modern society. Even the Chinese are using to scientific method to investigate the existence and benefits of qi. Regardless of your opinion, my argument is not downgraded if one is utilizing the laws of logic to determine truth.

I also agree with you that the scientific method as utilized in spiritual matters is inadequate to be the sole determining factor of the reality of spiritual experiences. However, qi has physical effects, can be examined, and measured using the scientific method. Electricity has not been proven to exist using the scientific method. We know of its existence due to its effects, which can be measured, but what it is, is still a theory. It is the same for qi, which still has not been proven to have any more benefit to an individual that can be provide through other means. Many of the experiences of qi can be attributed to the placebo effect.

All this from someone who actually believes that qi exists; I just believe that it is overrated. I have had my share of experiences with qi, I have seen it visually as well. I just believe there are more important and real spiritually focused activities that produce real benefits. Qi is a power and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity. The pursuit of it, while fun and entertaining, is a distraction from more productive activities.

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
08-19-2001, 09:27 PM
Except I would like to comment on just one part of it:

"I have had my share of experiences with qi, I have seen it visually as well. I just believe there are more important and real spiritually focused activities that produce real benefits. Qi is a power and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity. The pursuit of it, while fun and entertaining, is a distraction from more productive activities."

It surprised me that you said this as this appeared to me to be a comment against your beliefs in its own. To contrast or compare or to draw away from what others consider part of finding themselves seems redundant. In this I refer to you saying that "Qi is a power and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity." At a lower level of practice, and outlook, this may be the case but if you begin to look a bit closer you will see that this is not the case at all. Qi is the essence of the spiritual search, the life force that allows you to do so. The tingling feeling you get that runs up your spine when something unpredictable or unforseen takes place that changes your perception.

And to draw a contrast or comparison that one thing is a greater producer of spiritual development then another is to overlook spiritual development altogether. Through failure you will find success.

Thus it is said,
"There are times when even brightness seems dim;
when progress seems like regression;
when the easy seems most difficult,
and virtue seems empty, inadequate and frail;
times when purity seems sullied;
when even reality seems unreal,
and when a square seems to have corners;
when even great talent is of no avail,
and the highest note cannot be heard;
when the formed seems formless,
and when the way of nature is out of sight".

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 09:42 PM
Esteban,

These are the two I agree with, in order of my agreement with what they have to say:

1) http://www.taichiworld.net/Articles/empty_force.htm
2) http://www.mawn.net/kongjing.htm

Sincerely,

Scott

EARTH DRAGON
08-19-2001, 10:30 PM
I apologize for the trick thing it was daniel madar that said it sorry! as for daniel if it is a trick then please try it for your self!
as for the needle insertion not being qi-gong allow me to explian it to you
first we know that qigong is an art or skill for manipulating,culitvating, redirecting chi right?

and chi flows in us through us an around us right?
and a qi-gong master has the ability to control his, hers or anothers chi right?

then just as chi flows through meridians for accupuncture it also allows blood flow, pain recepters and circulation right?

then how is inserting a steel wire through skin, muscle, facaia and nerves when she is controling my chi not painful to me or my brain waves also without a drop of blood shed!

so you see just as anestseologists give you locals to prevent such things from happening, qigong can also do this naturally! so maybe your knowledge of qigong is limited but I assure you but this is very real and in no way not part of demonstrating high level qi-gong!
As you explianed when shaman snap out of their trance they are unable to perform, and if my teacher pulled her hand away for a second it would be a whole different story! I hope this explains what I am attempiting to prove to you . thank you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 11:03 PM
Nexus,

If you recall one of my posts on another thread I likened “powers” to Michael Jordan’s ability to play B-ball. Just because someone has developed a skill is not reason to raise them up spiritually. It is possible to develop qi with little spiritual insight. The pursuit of the development of qi in itself will provide one with some spiritual maturity, but qi can be manipulated without much personal development and is not a sign of spiritual maturity. It may be a consequence of spiritual growth, but not necessarily a guarantee of the presence of spiritual maturity. The focusing on the development of powers is just another attachment one will have to eventually dispense with along the path to maturity.

While my comment in question may seem opposed to some of my other statements, it is important to include my previous posts on this thread to keep it in context. I did get the opportunity to finish posting my previous message.

Each person does pursue their own path and is ultimately responsible for their own growth. However, it would be inappropriate for me to NOT mention the more common pitfalls. The importance some put on developing powers is a path that leads to a longer route. I am merely saying so. The lessons they learn will be valuable along the way and will be according to their interests and personalities, however someone does need to inform them of their error. Assuming people are generally attempting to take the shortest path possible to spiritual maturity.

If we accept qi as the sustaining life force than your comment would be correct in that because of it we exist and therefore it is the part of what enables us to live so that we may become spiritually mature. My comment was more directed to the focused attempt to develop it. It is already present in us; healthy food, clean air, exercise and a calm attitude will keep it flowing freely in our system. However, the “focused” pursuit of it for the purposes of performing parlor tricks is a waste of valuable time, which could be used for pursuits that are more productive.

One of my previous, posts ended with this paragraph:

“Some will insist that this type of cultivation is still worth the effort and I do not fault you. Everyone has their own path. I am merely exercising my right to express my thoughts. I still respect the opinions and rights of those of you who will disagree with me and I wish you good luck.”

I hope this more accurately explains my position.

Sincerely,

Scott

Esteban
08-19-2001, 11:11 PM
Hi Scott,

you seem like an honest and sincere man. I guess what bothers some people is the connection made between "qi," "empty force," "spiritual development" and "combat." "Qi" is turned into a magical or mystical force that "enlightened" (and highly trained) individuals can use to fight without making physical contact. I agree with the poster who argues that the enlightened practitioner wouldn't use his art superficially, to fight, let alone brag about it. "Qi" can be emitted, by breathing, bleeding, sweating, ejaculating. And, all these can have effects on things and people outside one's body. Some people seem to have "healing hands". Some people seem to have "surgeon's hands." Who's going to explain why one person has one and another doesn't? In terms of fighting, well, a mouse can get scared to death when he's put into the snake's cage. This I've seen from experience with my childrens' pets. The snake only ate live mice. Native Americans recognized, and spiritualized, this relationship between predator and prey in nature. But, to claim that "qi" and "empty force" are going to stop 4 or 5 ****ed-off (but sober) fullbacks deserves much more attention, like WWF or WCW. No disrespect meant, I would like to see it. I even believe there might be those who could do it, only not because of "empty force." Unfortunately, extravagant claims and demonstrations often make the subject seem so ridiculous that it's entirely dismissed. Anyway, Kevin wanted an example of someone who used "empty force" for combat. On Mr. Colangelo's site, there's an email address.

Respects,
Esteban

Scott R. Brown
08-19-2001, 11:33 PM
Esteban,

Personally, I am less concerned about the reality of the effects of qi projection and more concerned with the time and energy people spend on its development. Like I said earlier, the purchase of a gun or even pepper spray would accomplish the same result with much less effort and time. Then one could spend 20-30 years of their life practicing activities with more beneficial, assured and tangible results.

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
08-20-2001, 12:00 AM
Indeed what is the most obvious is the hardest to explain. Of course, that which makes little sense to us we attribute a thousand words.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Scott R. Brown
08-20-2001, 12:06 AM
Nexus,

Could you be more specific? (joke: Ha Ha Ha)

Sincerely,

Scott

Crimson Phoenix
08-20-2001, 12:08 AM
Earth Dragon, indeed I get your point and it's perfectly valid, it's exactly what I meant in my last precision about the usage of mind which is also a major point in qigong...I guess we spoke the same words about this, but in different dialects!

As for the steel insertion, I didn't get the part about your teacher and didn't realize you insert it under her control, not yours (if I get it right)...that makes it much more interesting indeed, because frankly I'm not impressed anymore by guys inserting steel in their jaws or thighs (even if I wouldn't do it myself hehehehe).
But the precision about her hand adds some good spice to the act...

Scott R. Brown
08-20-2001, 12:50 AM
Nexus,

If you recall one of my posts on another thread I likened “powers” to Michael Jordan’s ability to play B-ball. Just because someone has developed a skill is not reason to raise them up spiritually. It is possible to develop qi with little spiritual insight. The pursuit of the development of qi in itself will provide one with some spiritual maturity, but qi can be manipulated without much personal development and

Kevin Wallbridge
08-20-2001, 02:11 AM
Go away for a couple of days and look what develops.

As I read through the posts I noticed someone say "but you've probably never been to China..." I think thats something you can'take for granted. I'd never heard of the teacher mentioned and I lived there training Qigong.

The point of bringing this up was not so that I could believe in the use of distance skills, but so that those who did could say why. You don't need to explain the validity of Qi healing to me, I teach Qigong for medical practitioners at a school of Chinese medicine, and Faqi is part of our curriculum.

It now seems clear that people tend to arrange the argument to suit thier own tastes no matter how many times or ways I frame the question. Nothing in my original post was directed to healing, or body piercing or Faqi skills other than combat, yet how many posts digress to things completely tangential?

The horse-stance story is the closest thing to an anecdotal account of distance skills, thanks. Can we get back to martial arts and let this rest now?

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Censored]
08-20-2001, 09:45 PM
The pursuit of [Qi], while fun and entertaining, is a distraction from more productive activities.

Is this a martial arts board or a communist propaganda board? ;)

Seriously though, there seems to be some confusion about the scientific method. Its requirements are very simple:

1) Guess.
2) Check.

The use of white lab coats, Bunsen burners, and chalkboards is strictly optional.

Scott R. Brown
08-21-2001, 01:47 AM
Censored,

Aren’t you supposed to be out weeding on the collective right now? I will report you if you continue to speak out independently. Then you can join my parents on the Archipelago.

The scientific method also includes taking measurements and the reproducibility of results under controlled circumstances.

Oh!! I guess that falls under the "check" category.

Sincerely,

Scott