Xing-I vs. Wing Chun

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"Xing-I": is that how we are spelling it this month? :)

Anyway, I recently attended a Xing-I seminar, and found the basic applications and principles to be very similar to Wing Chun.

As far as I could tell, Xing-I generates power through compression and decompression of the legs, waist, and back. Wing Chun seems to rely more on maintenance of proper structure, and to be more conservative with body movement.

What I did NOT notice, was any difference which should place Xing-I in the family of "internal arts", separate from Wing Chun, the "external art".

Comments? Corrections?

[TheBigToad]

In my experience this is because Xingyiquan after the beginning stages and development of ability to fight with is established things like opening and closing joints, lengthening of soft tissue, folding yourself deep inside your self and all sorts of body movements that can only be done with a firm grasp of knowing exactly how to move your body from the inside to produce effect on the outside. This is something that Wing Chun doesn't really do.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[The Willow Sword]

the similarites i see with hsingi and wingchun is that both do alot of midline attacking and the stances are close in as well,,but wingchun was developed later on. hsingi has been around for a loooong time. the wingchun principles are probably adopted from the hsingi principles. not alot of high kicks in wing chun,,neither in hsingi. plus the two systems are southern based. wing chun ,however seems to be a little more "hoppy" and "skitish" being developed by a woman (and this is not an offense to women), the female aspect of defense would be very evasive and skitish ,as i call it. hsingi is a little more rooted and power oriented, it is said that all it takes is for"one hit" from a hsingi master and thats it for you. hsingi parctitioners also take in alot of hits. the pakua being a part of the hsingi curriculum eliminated (to a degree) the hits. any way just my two yens worth,,
Many respects,,,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Stranger]

I thought hsing-i was a northern style, but then again, what do I know? :confused:

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Kumkuat]

who's seminar did you go to? The basic compression/decompression stuff is basic fajing (there's a little more to it than that though in my experience). As you go to a more higer level, the storing and releasing is more subtle.

Xing Yi IS a Northern martial art. It is said to be orginated in the Shanxi province.

[MaFuYee]

i can teach you how to throw a jab, cross, hook, and uppercut, in about an hour. - but, you still won't be mike tyson.

- hsing-i applications are not complex. - it's the method of power generation, that makes it a formidable art.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

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The seminar was led by Li Tai-Liang. It was difficult to understand some of his comments due to the language barrier. He gave a few 5-10 minute statements in Chinese, which the translators boiled down to one minute or less. :confused:

[Rory]

I would think hsing-i. mainly becasue wing chun would have a hard time going against its bird and dragon forms. mainly just because its focused on ground fighting (those 2 animals not the whole of hsing). and wing chun has absolutley none of that. although who know i have never studied either of the.

[Kumkuat]

Was it like:

Li Tai Liang [in Chinese]: Okay, in the squatting monkey stance... (enter long description here).

Translator: Do what he just did.

;)

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The communication problem was closer to:

Me: Can you describe the power generation in Beng Quan?
Li: [Talks for five minutes, nonstop, in Chinese]
Translator: It's from the dantien.

Me: :confused: :(

[Nexus]

It says, 'Time to learn a foreign language!'

Its a shame that language is the barrier and the bridge between our thoughts.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Leimeng]

I have trained internal arts and various forms of Shaolin for many years. Additionally, I have worked out with many Wing Chun practitioners. My statements are based on personal experience and not meant as a slam on any person or style. However my points are as follows.
~ Wing Chun is not near the level of Hsing I in either power or technical development. Beyond both styles having a strong domination of the centerline, there are not a whole lot of similarities.
~ Much of the skill in either art initially is dependant on how hard you practice. In this regards they are both equal. However, at higher levels, Hsing I mechanical and internal development continues with refinement and even more subtle detail. Advanced Wing Chun development comes from physical conditioning and experience.
~ A large amount of Wing Chun people start to study Taijichuan after several years to refine and balance out there original art. Hsing-I has the balance from day one of training.
~ I respect Wing Chun people for their dedication and loyalty to their art. Additionally, I would expect that any self respecting Wing Chun practitioner who has practiced for a longer time in their art than I have in Hsing-I would better able to use their art than I can mine. (Luckily, as chance would have it though, I have practiced BaGua longer than Hsing I so that would hopefully nullify the effects and implications of the last statement. But the intention should be obvious.)
~ If you have to choose between studying one art or the other, and both instructors are legitimate and teach well. Choose the Hsing-I. If you can only study Wing Chun due to location, either move to a place to learn Hsing-I, or study the Wing Chun.
~ Breadth of experience is a very valuable tool to have in your arsenal.
~ Really, Hsing-I and BaGua will develop skills over that long term that will not be easily rivaled.
It is always a good idea to learn Chinese. I have been studying the language for many years. However, I empathize with the guy translating a five minute comment to a simple sentence. I have to do the same quite often. Most of the older instructors use analogy and historical anecdotes to convey a point. The level of Chinese they use when trying convey these points is literary or else they are using idioms that were contemporary when they were young. (How many kids today understand or use terms like “groovy” ?) Some times the instructors are doctors and I don’t know the medical terminology they use in Chinese well enough to put it into English. One of my friends who is Chinese (she interprets for us often) does not know the terms in English. So, a lot gets lost. Finally, most people are not used to working through interpreters. I can only hold about two sentences in my head at one time when I am doing that sort of work. Since it is considered rude to interrupt an older Chinese person, respect dictates that we let them ramble for as long as they feel necessary and hope to be able to hold on to the pertinent points. It is not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination. One of my favorite octogenarian Hsing I instructors commented when I mentioned these points, “Oh well, as long you can give them one or two points, or at least make them smile or laugh, then you are doing ok, I give the same answers to my students in China for 10 years, year after year,and they still don’t listen.” :)

Hope that helps, or at least adds to the confusion. :D

Peace,

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

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Are these similarities?

* Weight towards the back foot.
* Shoulders down, elbows in, hips tucked, knees in and bent, head up.
* Feet grip the ground.
* Preference for low kicks.
* Hit with full body movement.
* Stick to your opponent.
* Do not meet force with force.

Are these accurate differences?

* WC always wants a straight spine.
* WC will not trade hits.
* WC wants constant contact, preferably even during a strike.
* WC faces the opponent squarely.
* WC has a stronger preference for the straight punch.
* WC has a stronger dislike for the backwards step.
* WC hits may be less powerful, though IME they are more then powerful enough. Good WC guys don't need to hit you twice either :)

This is just off the top of my head, based on two days experience with Hsing I. I'm sure there are many things I or someone else could add here. So please do so, especially that crucial component that makes Hsing I an "internal art".

Advanced Wing Chun development comes generally from sensitivity, timing, distance, and experience, although strength and speed are definitely a plus. I think this is one area in which we can say it is identical to Hsing I.

I wouldn't mind learning Chinese, but I would have to take the time away from my MA practice (which I don't want to do) or from work (which would get me fired). I'll be in China next month, hopefully some of it will stick.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ma Fu is right: Xing Yi seems externally simple, the students seem to repeat endlessly the five same stuffs...hence it's a rather arid style to learn...it's the same idea that the saying "better work one technique 1000 times than 1000 techniques once"...but when you get the key to the power generation, then you can really woop azz...there are external similarities between Xing Yi and WC, some particular concepts (for example straight line, center line, aggressive strategy and some other) and the ideas that all CMA share to be recognized as CMAs (roots etc...), but it stays skin deep, and when you start looking deeper, they really have nothing in common...in y opinion...

Phoenix

[bean curd]

similarities - what you have written you could put just about every style to that, they are basics.

weight distribution
not all xing yi play with the 60/40 rule, some have 50'50 rule and the older styles where 40/60 rule, it looked more like gungchima than santi posture.

taking out basics like spine alignment, rooting, sinking etc, they are very much different.

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* Boxing does not keep the head up
* Taekwondo does not prefer low kicks(?)
* Aikido does not root
* Karate does not stick to the opponent

So, the similarities I mentioned are hardly universal.

Am I boring everyone, or is there a shortage of applicable experience? Or maybe both? :)

[bean curd]

sorry since this is cma thread, when i stated "every style" i assumed you would understand that i was implying chinese, not on the universal.

although xing yi at the novice stage does concentrate on the external, this is only to teach the player, proper and correct body allignment and movement.

however the internal starts immediatly even at novice level from the "santi", which is the first posture learnt and usually studied before even taking the first step towards the "elements"

at the comencment of xingyi, those i have trained with always do santi, for as long as they can, before starting other practices.

the concepts of wuji, taiji and liangyi to santi, are all internal and although the player may not fully understand these principles initially, they are most certainly there from the start.

xing yi uses many ging, but the main focus is on "paan ging" (whole body power)
in "siulumtao", the internal is also evident, however from my experiance, xing yi study is always on the internal aspects.

one cannot deny the physical representation of the elements and animal movements from the external, however from santi, the "six internals/eight methods" are also prevelent even at the early stages.


as i said before there are many xing yi all doing something different, some have animals 10 - 12, some have just elements, some even just do santi.

others have there stances on different weight levels, 50/50, 40/60 and 60/40.

do you know which xing yi you learnt = daixingyi, liuhubafaxingyi, heibeixingyi, sanxixyingyi,pichuanxinhyi saanxixyingyi??? .

if you know which one it may help to explain your question on the simularities you have seen