UFC rules and TMA

[Flying-Monkey]

At first, I agreed with most MMAist in this forum about CMAist crying about the rules in tournaments like UFC. However, after visiting the UFC website, I do not feel that UFC rules are good for a lot of TMA techniques. Here is the list of fouls from the UFC website.

* = not good for TMA
**= not good for TMA but should not be allowed.


Fouls: [Top]
*1. Butting with the head.
**2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
*4. Hair pulling.
**5. Fish hooking.
*6. Groin attacks of any kind.
**7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
*8. Small joint manipulation.
**9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
*10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
*11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
*12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*13. Grabbing the clavicle. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
*15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
*16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
*17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
**18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
*20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Now, I know I will get heII from MMAist, but you must admit. Now that many fighters are used to JJ, many TMA do not make the same mistakes.

[lkfmdc]

How good is your gouging, hair pulling, butting, biting, clawing and throat striking? I mean, how do you know? How do you practice it? You can practice kicks and punches on a pad, on a person, etc... do you do a line of bites up and down the floor?

Who do you think can actually use stuff like bites and gouges in a fight? The guy on the bottom, or the guy on top with the controlling position?

Frankly, if you get taken down and mounted, all the eye gouges in the world aren't going to save you. You're served working yoru take down defenses and getting back to your feet if that fails than relying on biting

If you think your fighting art only works if you can bite, what kind of a fighting art are you doing? :confused:

[lkfmdc]

How good is your gouging, hair pulling, butting, biting, clawing and throat striking? I mean, how do you know? How do you practice it? You can practice kicks and punches on a pad, on a person, etc... do you do a line of bites up and down the floor?

Who do you think can actually use stuff like bites and gouges in a fight? The guy on the bottom, or the guy on top with the controlling position?

Frankly, if you get taken down and mounted, all the eye gouges in the world aren't going to save you. You're served working yoru take down defenses and getting back to your feet if that fails than relying on biting

If you think your fighting art only works if you can bite, what kind of a fighting art are you doing? :confused:

[Flying-Monkey]

How good is your gouging, hair pulling, butting, biting, clawing and throat striking? I mean, how do you know? How do you practice it? You can practice kicks and punches on a pad, on a person, etc... do you do a line of bites up and down the floor?

Who do you think can actually use stuff like bites and gouges in a fight? The guy on the bottom, or the guy on top with the controlling position?

Frankly, if you get taken down and mounted, all the eye gouges in the world aren't going to save you. You're served working yoru take down defenses and getting back to your feet if that fails than relying on biting

If you think your fighting art only works if you can bite, what kind of a fighting art are you doing? :confused:

Biting does not have a star.

[The Xia]

I always said that many of the things you use in TMA can't be used in sanctioned competitions like UFC, etc. You can still use some stuff, but not all of it. The thing that MMA people ignore, don't believe, or don't know, is that traditional martial arts were created for out-of-ring combat. Training wasn't a luxury, but a tool of survival. The techniques present will reflect this. Does this mean that it can't be used in the ring? Of course not! TMA can be used, you just can't do certain techniques. Here is where the MMA guys come along and say, "Then where are these traditional martial arts fighters?" The answer to that is simple. Many of the TMA people that can fight aren't the types to enter MMA events. Kyokushin guys can fight, but they don't need to do so in the UFC since they are happy in their own events. As for Kung Fu guys, those that wish to engage in sport combat will likely go for San Da. In addition, just because someone does not wish to go into sport combat doesn't mean he has no skills. So those in the TMA world that are good will likely stay away from MMA events and organizations like the UFC will get stuck with mostly the bottom of the TMA barrel.

[lkfmdc]

Biting does not have a star.

Fine, substitute any of the other tactics for the words "bite", "bites" or "biting" and the argument is the same

[Flying-Monkey]

Fine, substitute any of the other tactics for the words "bite", "bites" or "biting" and the argument is the same

No, it isn't.

[Flying-Monkey]

Try to fight someone who has strong hand squeezing power (130lbs or more in one hand). They can EASILY dislocate the clavicle.

[The Xia]

According to what you posted, your own sifu was highly adept at clawing.

[mantis108]

I don't think it's healthy to confuse dirty tactics with delivery system. Worst still is to confuse gymnastic or acting attributes with fighting ability.

Mantis108

[CLFLPstudent]

Flying Mokey wrote:
Try to fight someone who has strong hand squeezing power (130lbs or more in one hand). They can EASILY dislocate the clavicle.

This, among other 'asterisked' rules ( SJM, throat striking, etc.) will undoubtedly injure the players. Remember that UFC, K1, KotC et. al are all SPORTS. They governing bodies must do what they can to ensure their money-makers are going to be around for the next fight, not re-habbing a compound frocture of the pniky. Not in the hospital with a fractured trachea.

I can't imagine any local government sanctioning a fight where someone can get soccer kicked while on his back. Some of those rules were specifically put in so that certain states can not only host UFC, but even watch it on PPV.

-David

[Ravenshaw]

Yeah, kung fu was meant for dirty fighting, but if you have to fight dirty to win... well, what lkfmdc said.

If you have strong basics in fighting and have time to get used to the gear and rules, you have no excuse.

[brucereiter]

At first, I agreed with most MMAist in this forum about CMAist crying about the rules in tournaments like UFC. However, after visiting the UFC website, I do not feel that UFC rules are good for a lot of TMA techniques. Here is the list of fouls from the UFC website.

* = not good for TMA
**= not good for TMA but should not be allowed.


Fouls: [Top]
*1. Butting with the head.
**2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
*4. Hair pulling.
**5. Fish hooking.
*6. Groin attacks of any kind.
**7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
*8. Small joint manipulation.
**9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
*10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
*11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
*12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*13. Grabbing the clavicle. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
*15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
*16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
*17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
**18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
*20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Now, I know I will get heII from MMAist, but you must admit. Now that many fighters are used to JJ, many TMA do not make the same mistakes.

what is that story about one of yang luchans sons being in a fight and beating the other guy, then going home and proudly telling his dad and the dad saying yeah what ever you need to practice your sleeve is torn ... and you always hear stories about masters through out history who were able to defeat their foe with out hurting them.
which leads to these questions

to defend your self:
do you really want to gouge a persons eyes out?
do you need to break a persons spine?
do you need to damage the trachea?
maybe tcma should practice more compassionate ways of defending themselves.

what i am getting at is i do not think these ufc rules work against a tcma and a tcma with skill should have no problem competing under these rules (i do think a tcma would need some pretty good skill to beat the average ufc person under sporting rules though), i think they are in place to keep the athletes safe remember the ufc is a sport.

[SifuAbel]

*1. Butting with the head.
**5. Fish hooking.
*8. Small joint manipulation.
**9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
*10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
*11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
*12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*13. Grabbing the clavicle. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
*15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
*16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
*17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
**18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence. (this seems to happen anyway.)


Here are the ones that really mean anything to a striker.

[YouKnowWho]

Don't under estimate the value of "biting". If you can bite one of your opponent's fingers off then the fight could end right there. Bite the moment you feel that you are going down with your opponent, and don't try to bite after your opponent got an arm bar on you.

How to train "biting"?

Beginner level - Get a raw pig leg and try to sink your teeth all the way through the bone.
Intermediate level - Try to bite a live dog's leg or rattle snake's head off.
Advance level - Go to the zoo and train with any living lion or tiger.

After you have passed all three levels of training, you may face any MMA guys without fear.

A. I lost one of my fingers in my last MMA fight.
B. I lost one of my ears in my last BJJ fight.
C. I lost one of my balls in my last Pride fight.
D. I lost my "only" coc* in my last UFC fight.
E. I told you we CMA guys don't follow rules and we don't play fair.

[Mr Punch]

It's all irrelevant: If you want to enter a sporting competition you have to follow the rules.

What are you telling us? That if you go into a sports ring you're not going to be able to win without grabbing someone's clavicle? That it's going to cramp your style? Be serious, what proportion of your art is clavicle grabbing? :confused: :rolleyes: :D

And given that it takes a lot less time and accuracy to punch somebody (even to punch them in the clavicle area but especially say, somewhere useful like their head) how often do you think a clavicle grab will come up over a punch?

So what your grip has a 130 whatevers: numbers don't mean anything if you don't follow KISS! And strategically it makes no sense: while you're faffing about with flappy slappy punches with the aim of setting up the clavicle grab, you could have been knocking him out!

Doesn't mean you're not going to be able to use it in the street where the environmental difficulties, elements of surprise and fitness come into it, but if you think not being able to grab somebody's clavicle will cause a serious disadvantage to you in a ring fight, your system is silly!

If we give you the benefit of the doubt and add up ALL THESE FACTORS maybe you would have a point, except again for the fact that they all require a set-up to deliver them. And, if you're so concerned with the two-three-or-more move set-ups, you're going to be missing the opportunity to hit him with a jab-cross-hook, or jab-cross-uppercut, that could KO him in half the time! And if you're talking on the ground, well how does your style's groundwork match up against college wrestling or JJ, or even judo groundwork?

I'd love to find a competition that allows head-butts. Every single session I've been having recently has involved the set-up and delivery of a head-butt, which are very simple and easy to find, quick and devastating. I like them, and I consider them a core part of wing chun. Ditto elbows: I use elbows all the time and in Shooto (which is would be the easiest competition for me to enter over here with anything like NHB rules) there are now no elbows.

So if I want to compete I have to find another venue which may be difficult. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to use my other skills in the ring. It's a simple choice.

Conversely, I don't see how some of these MMAers can say that I'm making excuses for my style. Of course I want to use what I've got: I have 2 feet, 2 knees, 2 elbows, 2 hands, 1 head - so out of 9 basic weapons I can only use 6: two-thirds of my arsenal (3/4 if you take the head out on the basis that it's very short range - but it's still difficult).

But this comes back to your clavicle grabs/fat grabs: I don't see how you can compare specialized attacks like those to bread-and-butter strikes.

[Mr Punch]

Don't under estimate the value of "biting". If you can bite one of your opponent's fingers off then the fight could end right there. Bite the moment you feel that you are going down with your opponent, and don't try to bite after your opponent got an arm bar on you.

How to train "biting"?

Beginner level - Get a raw pig leg and try to sink your teeth all the way through the bone.
Intermediate level - Try to bite a live dog's leg or rattle snake's head off.
Advance level - Go to the zoo and train with any live lion or tiger.

After you have passed all three level of training, you may face any MMA guys without fear.BWUHAHAHAHA! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D :D

YouKnowWho: it's been a long time and just when the Best Troll thread comes up too!

1) You ain't gonna bite in the ring cos it's against the rules.
2) I sure as hell ain't gonna bite in the street cos it's against common sense re health.

You're a freak.

[YouKnowWho]

Try to have some sense of humor guys. I don't believe US has any law that's against joking around on the internet. :)

[Mr Punch]

Fair enough. That was **** funny then!

[Samurai Jack]

Gotta play devil's advocate here:

I watched the entire set of "Classic UFC" dvd's the other day. It was completly awesome, and totally different than what you see nowadays. I have no doubt whatsoever that most of the MMA guys competing wouldn't last in the old "No Rules" format.

I watched Tank Abbot brutally fishhooking a helpless Oleg Tokterov.

I watched Frank Shamrock punching some guy in the groin until he submitted.

I watched a much smaller man headbutt a 6'8" 400lbs. man for a knockout. (without this technique he'd have lost for sure)

I watched numerous matches end in knockouts from the proscribed fouls, and wrist and finger locks used to be a staple of several fighters...

I practice Aikido, and small joint manipulations are an important part of my art. If punches were considered foul nobody would be claiming that boxers were whiners for complaining about it. So why disparage the traditionalists who train different skills than the MMA guy?

The fouls are "Foul" because they work exceptionally well against anyone. The fouls level the field, they are fight enders. If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn't be illegal, and they wouldn't have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).

Claiming that you can easily beat someone on the street who isn't playing by your rules becase you can roll on a mat makes you just as deluded as the TMA guy who thinks he's "too deadly for competition".

[Yum Cha]

Mantis 108 - "Dirty Fighting" ??? DUDE!!!

Sorry, in my humble opinion, "dirty fighting" is well within the bounds of Kung Fu

Now, in a sporting context, breaking the rules in bad form, that is why its called sport, fair enough, but no such thing as dirty fighting in my book, when your life is on the line. If you can't just walk away, then you take control and you end it. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chance you'll get hurt.

Punch,

As for gripping strength and effectiveness, a classic example of a skill a gloved fighter can't use. Grapplers probably appreciate it a bit more, but it can be a fight ender. I'm not talking silly, about ripping hunks of flesh out, more along the lines of taking arms out of action momentarially, and chin na.

There's a saying, "once I get my hands on you, you're mine." Bridge fighting relies on sticking, and grip is a good sticky technique.

So, TCMA isn't suited to sport fighting. So what! Old news.

[lkfmdc]

So, I guess it's time to dig up "John Marsh vs San Soo kung fu" guy clip since that fight had no rules. Mr San Soo tried to eye gouge, grab hair, etc.... if I remember correctly, Mr San Soo said he was gonna take an eye out BEFORE THE FIGHT

Of course, stuck on the bottom and with no idea how to escape, it all became a moot point.

Again, you'd all be better served working take down defenses and how to get back on your feet from your back than relying on biting :rolleyes: , gouging, clavicle grabbing, etc etc etc

[Knifefighter]

And people wonder why I deride kung fu guys.

It's really hard to keep from busting out laughing when reading some of this stuff from people who's closest encounter with MMA is to see it on television.


Try to fight someone who has strong hand squeezing power (130lbs or more in one hand). They can EASILY dislocate the clavicle.
Too funny.,
Give me a break.
How many clavicles have you dislocated by grabbing and squeezing them?
Talk about clueless.


Of course not! TMA can be used, you just can't do certain techniques.
And those are the same techniques that the MMA fighters are not allowed to use either. Imagine how much worse it would be for the TMA fighters if the MMA fighters were allowed to use those techniques against the TMA fighters... there would be quite a few deaths in the ring.


I have no doubt whatsoever that most of the MMA guys competing wouldn't last in the old "No Rules" format.
Um... did you hear about the Royce Gracie/Matt Hughes fight? Royce, who uses pretty much the same tools he used in the early UFC's to destroy the TMA guys, was schooled by Matt, a modern-day MMA figher.

Let a modern MMA fighter use all the restricted tools that he is currently banned from using and he would literally kill many TMA guys.



If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn't be illegal, and they wouldn't have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).
The reason they were banned was to protect the TMA guys who were already getting beaten so badly. The MMA guys who were beginnig to use a variety of modern training and fighting methods were doing some serious damage to the more traditional guys. There was serious concern that a clueless TMA guy would enter the competition and get killed in the ring.

One of the early controversies among the promoters of the UFC was if the more restrictive rules were actually giving the TMA guys more of an advantage by making it harder for the more combat sports oriented fighters to beat them. Restriction of elbow strikes was a huge controversy, since this was a main tool of the BJJ guys.



As for gripping strength and effectiveness, a classic example of a skill a gloved fighter can't use.
Have you trained with MMA gloves? They don't affect one's grip at all.


Grapplers probably appreciate it a bit more, but it can be a fight ender. more along the lines of taking arms out of action momentarially,
No... grapplers know how stupid and ineffective trying to end a fight by "take someone's arm out of action" by grabbing it is, since that is perfectly legal in wrestling and submission grappling competitions.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think the reason many Kung Fu and other TMA practioners continue to beat the dead horse is that many refuse to accept that their style of Kung Fu may be incomplete. By incomplete I mean there is no grappling and no submissions(at least realistic ones:rolleyes: ) and even their stand up may be lacking due to improper sparring tactics. Recently I had a student from another Kung Fu style come to my school to train while he was in college(our school is located on campus). He has 18 months of training from this style under his belt, so I allowed him to spar with other students and the instructors. At his previous school he sparred without pads, which I think creates bad habits because regardless you will pull much of your technique. With proper gear you can go at least 75 percent without too much of an injury risk. He was not used to the level of contact, especially at the head where they did not hit while sparring. Also the only submission training they did was pressure point and some Chi Na. When some of us rolled he was very uncomfortable and asked me to roll with him and that he wanted to try the pressure points to see how they worked. I did and when we went to the ground I got side control and then full mount. I didn't do anything but hold him there while he tried numerous pressure points on me, none of which worked. Afterwards, I and my/our grappling coach explained to him about dominant positioning and how difficult it is to pull off pressure points once someone has you in that position. The point of all this is that if you have not been exposed to the reality of what fighting is you will not know. Most people in the case I just spoke of would accept that their is more to learn or go into denial about it. As for the student I spoke of, he is very receptive and is using what he is learning from us with what he learned from his previous training, some of which was good. So this is not a knock on his style of Kung Fu, because just like mine, it lacked ground fighting and submissions. It does go to show, however, that if you have not been exposed to this kind of fighting and training, you will continue to think that poking someone in the eye or grabbing them by the sack is the be all, end all of techniques. Unfortunately for them, this is rarely the case.

[SevenStar]

The fouls are "Foul" because they work exceptionally well against anyone. The fouls level the field, they are fight enders. If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn't be illegal, and they wouldn't have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).

Claiming that you can easily beat someone on the street who isn't playing by your rules becase you can roll on a mat makes you just as deluded as the TMA guy who thinks he's "too deadly for competition".


nah, not really. groin shots aren't necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I've been kicked there and didn't feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

In the old vale tudo, gerard gordeau DID eye gouge yuki nakai. Yuki won the fight anyway with a heel hook. He went on to also beat his next opponent and fight in the finals. However, nakai is now blind in one eye. THAT is why these things are outlawed - the permanent damage they can cause.

[gabe]

Samurai Jack,
Excellent post.

KF,
"The reason they were banned was to protect the TMA guys who were already getting beaten so badly. The MMA guys who were beginnig to use a variety of modern training and fighting methods were doing some serious damage to the more traditional guys. There was serious concern that a clueless TMA guy would enter the competition and get killed in the ring."

The UFC banned headbutts to protect TMA guys? Headbutts only work against TMAists? "too deadly?"

You don't see situations in the UFC today, with all the modern training and fighting methods used, where headbutts would work? How about the small finger joint manipulations, a UFC competitor I met said they are for the most part banned as well. Not useful? Too deadly? Ineffective in the real world? Fingers are not accessible in grappling situations? Headbutts?

"clueless TMA guy?" When would he ever succeed? Or are all TMA guys clueless? Heh.

[gabe]

nah, not really. groin shots aren't necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I've been kicked there and didn't feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

In the old vale tudo, gerard gordeau DID eye gouge yuki nakai. Yuki won the fight anyway with a heel hook. He went on to also beat his next opponent and fight in the finals. However, nakai is now blind in one eye. THAT is why these things are outlawed - the permanent damage they can cause.

I would have thought eye gouges wouldn't work in the real world! They're banned because they are too deadly?

[lkfmdc]

Again, who is in the position to use gouging, biting, head butts, stomping, etc

The guy on the BOTTOM, or teh guy on the TOP?

Come on, this isn't a hard question....

[Royal Dragon]

nah, not really. groin shots aren't necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I've been kicked there and didn't feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

Reply]
Is there a ban on wearing cups in the MMA realm?
I would think that a cup would make a groin punch pretty useless. I have taken full KICKs to the groin, and due to the cup it just slowed me for a moment while I grabbed the opponents kne and knocked him over.

Of course I fell down with him, and didn't know what to do, so i stood back up again, but that is moot. In a real fight that kick would have floored me, and probably killed any future descendants before they were concived. what I would have done on the ground if I had ground skills, would never have mattered in the relm of reality, because I don't wear a cup as I go about my daily life.

[gabe]

Again, who is in the position to use gouging, biting, head butts, stomping, etc

The guy on the BOTTOM, or teh guy on the TOP?

Come on, this isn't a hard question....

Ummm, well, I would hazard a guess that biting, gouging or headbutts might be the only option at times for the guy on the bottom. It's either that or be a victim of the ground and pound. Unless you can get out of it of course. Of course, the guy on top is perfectly capable of bending down and biting and gouging and headbutting too. Not pretty but.....:D

[lkfmdc]

Ummm, well, I would hazard a guess that biting, gouging or headbutts might be the only option at times for the guy on the bottom.



No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at "Mr San Soo" who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually




Of course, the guy on top is perfectly capable of bending down and biting and gouging and headbutting too. Not pretty



BINGO! We have a winner :D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ring = rules
Street = no rules.. worse, no weight classes, nothing to prevent multiple attackers, no restriction on weapons.. and, not much mercy in the courts..

TCMA, TMA, MMA, Escrima, Muay Thai, whatever.. on any given day, under almost any circumstances.. the better person wins, not the better style.. though, the person can represent a style.. styles don't fight, people do..

We have chosen violent paths, anything beyond that is a consequence of the choice..

Winning it all in a controlled match is not the goal.. living past 90 and dying from a jealous young husband's bullet is the goal..

Be well

[Royal Dragon]

only 90?

Ur such a wuss!

A true Kung Fu exponent would have said 108

[Chief Fox]

No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at "Mr San Soo" who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually

BINGO! We have a winner :D

Personal experience;
I was in a fight in college. Well, I got attacked and it turned into a fight. Anyway, the guy took me down and got me in a guilotine but it wasn't locked in. I reached up, put both of my thumbs in his eyes and pressed. I said very calmly, "if you don't let go, I'm going to rip your eyes out". He let go. I then had superior position and was able to bounce his head off of the floor.

Eye gouges work. But there's a time and a place just like everything else.

[Knifefighter]

The UFC banned headbutts to protect TMA guys? Headbutts only work against TMAists? "too deadly?"

You don't see situations in the UFC today, with all the modern training and fighting methods used, where headbutts would work? How about the small finger joint manipulations, a UFC competitor I met said they are for the most part banned as well. Not useful? Too deadly? Ineffective in the real world? Fingers are not accessible in grappling situations? Headbutts?
Of course, all of those techniques can potentially be used. However, all of the "deadly" techniques are even more deadly when used by someone who has a very good delivery system... they are icing on the cake. Those are all things that someone can do if they are good. Someone who has a really good delivery system (punches, kicks, knees, clinch and ground) will be much more effective in using these techniques against someone with a less effective system.

The UFC promotors were originally worried about the guys (mostly TMA) who didn't have very effective delivery systems getting severely hurt or killed by those who had the effective delivery systems if the later used the "dirty" techniques on them.

As it is, all of the fighters are now protected. But at the same time, all the fighters are also limited in their techniques- this includes the MMA fighters.

[mantis108]

Mantis 108 - "Dirty Fighting" ??? DUDE!!!

Sorry, in my humble opinion, "dirty fighting" is well within the bounds of Kung Fu

Now, in a sporting context, breaking the rules in bad form, that is why its called sport, fair enough, but no such thing as dirty fighting in my book, when your life is on the line. If you can't just walk away, then you take control and you end it. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chance you'll get hurt.

Well, my friend, I actually said "dirty tactics" which is all those biting, gouging, SJM etc. Those in my mind are emergency measures in an otherwise desperate "self defense" only situation and they don't constitute a delivery system. They might be an "integral" part of Kung Fu but real Kung Fu doesn't revolve around them. That is at least not in my book.

When my philiosophy is not to inflict permanent damage or other even more serious consequence during an altercation friendly or otherwise, I find it hard to encourage the use of dirty tactics. It is a personal choice. Kung Fu to me is not limited to self defense only although learning how to properly defend ourself is important and serious study. I do Kung Fu to make friends not to make enemies. I don't think causing permanent damage is ever going to achieve that. In a friendly match, I don't need people to fear that I might just snap and gouge their eyes out or bite off their ears (not saying I would be naive enough not to protect myself aganist those). To do so only tell others that I am merely an insecured child and would do anything to win which is just to keep my ego happy. ;) That's not Kung Fu (we have professional sports for that) :D

The beginning of Kung Fu is to learn humility most of the time through humiliation. Humility (including learning about losing) leads to fluidity and fluidity rides rigidity. Whether it is Kung Fu (chin na in particular), Ju Jitsu, Judo, Aiki Jitsu, Aikido, etc, it's all about fluidity rides the rigidity. Using dirty tactics only to win a fight is a guarantee lost even if you win any which way you look at it. Karma never misses, my friend. :cool:

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SifuAbel]

I have to agree with the fence hopping Ross. From the bottom, the foul rules are moot. The ones I highlighted are definatly for those on top or standing. SJM are banned because they may break holds and fingers if you're not carefull.

All the others I highlighted protect the guy on the bottom.

The problem with this perception of cma is two fold.

There are on one side the KnFitr style nuthuggers that want this to be 1998 forever and believe that people aren't sick to death of watching the same old tactics over and over again. That make blanket statements over entire populations because of the perceptions of some(see in the second paragraph). With, in his case, giant napoleon complexes. That can't see beyond their narrow stream of myopic vision past their paradigm of action.(that there is no variation to the steps in their fight A invariably is followed by B) That the UFC is the only measure of anything even though they themselves will never be on TV. And even in said UFC, things that they say are impossible then come to pass and it magically becomes acceptable. That measure even the very least player in CMA against the very top of thier venue even though there are as many crappy players under them as in all MA.

On the other side are the kung fu noobs that got caught up in the excuse game instead of just studying what is actually happening and what they can do to adjust, take down defense, approach control, hard contact striking, lengthening trigger zones, aiming :rolleyes:, preserving continuity of attack, getting out of the shooting gallery duck syndrome, etc, etc. To these people I say there is lots more in your CMA arsenal than eye pokes and hair pulling. What are you going to do if the guy is shaved or in KF'ers case, bald? To these people I say stop looking to the internet for answers. Look in your skill.

Bottom line, the reason CMA isn't in MMA is mostly political. All other reasons are just abberations. There is no physical or tactical reason one in CMA couldn't go into MMA if that is one's desire. And that is the politics of it, People in CMA are being herded into other venues.

No matter how Ross tries to deny it, he is a CMA player making it work.

[gabe]

No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at "Mr San Soo" who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually



BINGO! We have a winner :D

You telling me you haven't seen any situation where the guy on top has his head in range for a nice juicy headbutt?

So the eye gouge sevenstar mentioned was part of that 1%? According to your theory, the eyegouge sevenstar mentioned should never have worked right?

And what are your statistics on biting based on?

Anybody can come up with situations where a technique doesn't work:rolleyes:
But it's all in the execution. Really skilled fighters make the improbable work. So does chance and luck. And shockingly, so does hard training. Not all illegal techniques are impossible to train. Do some searches and you'll see plenty of improbable or so-called low percentage techniques working quite well.

The point is, just because some techniques are not suitable for the ring doesn't mean they are not effective. MMA will evolve according to rule sets, and those rule sets cut out a whole slew of techniques. Watch, more rules are coming. Some for safety, and some for entertainment value. It breaks my heart everytime a grappler works his butt off to get the other guy down only to have the ref arbitrarily stand them back up.

MMAists, the smart ones at least, will figure out every possible way to take advantage of those rules with respect to spacing, time limits, etc. And techniques that don't fall in that catagory will simply fade out.

[Knifefighter]

You telling me you haven't seen any situation where the guy on top has his head in range for a nice juicy headbutt?
Good luck trying to head butt someone who is on the top. Have you tried headbutting someone who has mount, side control, half-guard or, back control? Even with the guard, the top guy almost always has the advantage when headbutting is allowed.

[SifuAbel]

Mr. san soo got his becasue he was terrible.

BUT, mr. san soo isn't the utimate measure of anything.

[gabe]

Of course, all of those techniques can potentially be used. However, all of the "deadly" techniques are even more deadly when used by someone who has a very good delivery system... they are icing on the cake. Those are all things that someone can do if they are good. Someone who has a really good delivery system (punches, kicks, knees, clinch and ground) will be much more effective in using these techniques against someone with a less effective system.

The UFC promotors were originally worried about the guys (mostly TMA) who didn't have very effective delivery systems getting severely hurt or killed by those who had the effective delivery systems if the later used the "dirty" techniques on them.

As it is, all of the fighters are now protected. But at the same time, all the fighters are also limited in their techniques- this includes the MMA fighters.

KF,
I'm addressing the premise or assumption that techniques not used my MMAists are ineffective or useless. You've just buttressed my argument, which Ross is attempting to counter. Eyegouges and headbutts are effective and also illegal.

To succeed in MMA, you've got to conform to the rules. Maximize them to your advantage. But that doesn't mean that techniques outside the rules are ineffective and useless. MMA are just as susceptible to a headbutt as a tma'er. I don't get your point, those rules protect the MMAer just as much. Skilled MMAers, crappy ones, tma'ers, all of them need protection from a nice little headbutt while your standing up or on the bottom or on the top.

And no one is going to argue that you don't need an effective delivery system. Yes, they are all limited in what they can do in the ring, MMAist included. That's the point. Some skill sets are outside of those limitations while that is the world that MMAists thrive in, the good ones at least.

[Knifefighter]

That the UFC is the only measure of anything...
The UFC is only one measure... but it is a much more accurate measure than the one used by those who never venture outside of their comfy little training zones.



And even in said UFC, things that they say are impossible then come to pass and it magically becomes acceptable.
What's great about the UFC and other MMA venues is that they allow for evolution through full application. Since they are constantly testing techniques under fire and looking for advantages, they can take unworkable technques and modify them to the point where they become effective... however, this can only happen under the hard and brutal testing that comes from this type of training.


That measure even the very least player in CMA against the very top of thier venue even though there are as many crappy players under them as in all MA.
On of the best measures is the average practitioner vs. the average practitioner.





Bottom line, the reason CMA isn't in MMA is mostly political. All other reasons are just abberations. There is no physical or tactical reason one in CMA couldn't go into MMA if that is one's desire. And that is the politics of it, People in CMA are being herded into other venues.

The politics are that most CMA instructors have a vested interest in their students not competing in full-contact venues.

[SifuAbel]

Pft, pure spin. Include more of my post next time. I'm not even going to continue this line.

I will add one thing about your "evolution" arguement. If KFM had an archive that dated back far enough I could decimate you arguement with a thousand quotes YOU'VE made over the years. Talk about selective memory. UFC invented the roundkick. :rolleyes:

[Golden Arms]

Ugh, some people on both sides of the fence are deluded. Just try it for yourself instead of supposing and you will know the answers, but I guess that is too much to ask?

10 year striker vs. 2 year grappler, the striker will win if he keeps it in his game 9/10 times

10 year grappler vs. 2 year striker, the grappler will win if he keeps it in his game 9/10 times

The bottom line is, if you devote a large part of your life to either, you like know more tricks than the average joe in your chosen skill set, and will be able to dominate them fairly well because of this. This point is rendered moot if you dont train realistically, but there ARE schools that train realistic striking, just as there are oblivious grappling schools.

I really dont think one is better than the other, they are just preferences. If you pick up buildings by nature, then grappling is going to come to you quick, and if you like pounding things into dust, then striking. If you dont have either in your nature, then you just have to train and see where the road takes you. There are really too many variables to make blanket statements, so why not just go do it yourself?

[Shaolinlueb]

At first, I agreed with most MMAist in this forum about CMAist crying about the rules in tournaments like UFC. However, after visiting the UFC website, I do not feel that UFC rules are good for a lot of TMA techniques. Here is the list of fouls from the UFC website.

* = not good for TMA
**= not good for TMA but should not be allowed.


Fouls: [Top]
*1. Butting with the head.
**2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
*4. Hair pulling.
**5. Fish hooking.
*6. Groin attacks of any kind.
**7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
*8. Small joint manipulation.
**9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
*10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
*11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
*12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*13. Grabbing the clavicle. <---this is one of my favorate attacks
*14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
*15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
*16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
*17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
**18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
*20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Now, I know I will get heII from MMAist, but you must admit. Now that many fighters are used to JJ, many TMA do not make the same mistakes.

**11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
**14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
**15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
**16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
**17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

dude these are not good for cma in a competition, you dont want to kill the person.

and plus, when you get into a ring and do their rules, its basically you are doing the same thing as them. the cma basically goes out the window.

then you get people going,
like in the taiwan swat thread.
that looks like a tkd kick, that looks like a mauy thai kick. that looks like jujitsu, or thats bjj.
the fact of the matter is its a kick. a kick is a kick, it has the same result, you hit someone hard with your leg. an arm bar is an arm bar, still same result, you break their elbow.
stop trying to break it all down. its all chinese martial arts anyways.

[Knifefighter]

I'm addressing the premise or assumption that techniques not used my MMAists are ineffective or useless.
Those techniques are not useless at all. In fact they can be killler tools to have in one's toolbox. However, you've got to know when to use them and when to not use them. Trying to eye gouge someone when you are mounted on them is hugely different than trying to eye gouge someone when the postitions are reversed. The first is highly effective. The second is a big mistake.

I could show you some devastating toe breaks. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to use them unless you were skilled at getting into position and isolating the foot.

Some of the Filipino biting "systems" can be very effective. These techniques are much more effective for someone who understads the positioning that is used in MMA fighting.


Eyegouges and headbutts are effective and also illegal.
They are most effective for the more effective fighter.


MMA are just as susceptible to a headbutt as a tma'er.
But the MMA fighter is usually more adept at getting to a position to deliver them.



Some skill sets are outside of those limitations while that is the world that MMAists thrive in, the good ones at least.
The point that the TMA artists make is that these things would even the playing field if they were allowed... they would not, however, make things more even. They would just tilt them more in favor of the MMA fighters.

[SifuAbel]

The point that [some] TMA artists make is that these things would even the playing field if they were allowed... they would not, however, make things more even. They would just tilt them more in favor of the MMA fighters.

fixed..........

[SifuAbel]

and plus, when you get into a ring and do their rules, its basically you are doing the same thing as them. the cma basically goes out the window.

then you get people going,
like in the taiwan swat thread.
that looks like a tkd kick, that looks like a mauy thai kick. that looks like jujitsu, or thats bjj.
the fact of the matter is its a kick. a kick is a kick, it has the same result, you hit someone hard with your leg. an arm bar is an arm bar, still same result, you break their elbow.
stop trying to break it all down.

I don't agree. CMA is not about what is at the end of the spear. Its about everything behind it.

A kick is a kick. You had it right there.

[Shaolinlueb]

ufc rules were basically none existent in the 1st one. lots of people got hurt.

the rules established now are to make sure you can have a good fight, that is trying to be as realistic as possible without hurting the people too bad so they can go back and fight another day.

i have to say i agree with these rules, although i would like to see chin na used. that would take it to a good level.

but when tma steps into the ring with these rules, it becomes the same thing that these rules are designed for, kick boxing. cause they are basically what they are kickboxing rules, and rules for jujitsu of some kind.

face it, thats what it is.

yes sifu able it is what is behind the training.

[Knifefighter]

A kick is a kick. You had it right there.
Ah... but a kick is not just a kick.
There's a world of difference between a flicky little toe kick and a baseball bat shin kick.

[SifuAbel]

I didn't misspell my name. :D

[SifuAbel]

Ah... but a kick is not just a kick.
There's a world of difference between a flicky little toe kick and a baseball bat shin kick.

Or a break your jaw round kick. You MT nuthugger. And we don't hit with the toe, you clueless jerk off.

[Shaolinlueb]

Or a break your jaw round kick. You MT nuthugger. And we don't hit with the toe, you clueless jerk off.


sifu abel

this is why i dont even bother with arguments on the internet.


knife fighter

a flicky toe kick is a flicky toe kick. end result you flick a toe at them.

a jaw breaking round house kick is a jaw breaking round house kick. end result = break jaw.

does it matter if the technique for doing it is MT, TKD, CMA? no, it has the same effect.

[SifuAbel]

Lueb,

You don't seem to get it.

ALL round kicks other the MT round kick are included in this dillweeds on going fight for growth hormone therapy.

[Knifefighter]

does it matter if the technique for doing it is MT, TKD, CMA? no, it has the same effect.
Doesn't matter where it comes from... if it is effective, it is effective... if it is not, it is not.

However, some systems have more flicky little toe kicks than others... while others spend no time at all on those types of kicks.

[SifuAbel]

instead they spin around and hope not to get hit in the back. :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

Lueb,

You don't seem to get it.

ALL round kicks other the MT round kick are included in this dillweeds on going fight for growth hormone therapy.


hahahahaahahhahaahhaahhahaha

ill leave this convo then.

[Knifefighter]

You guys are too funny. You are so caught up in defending your little CMA worlds that you miss any useful points. All you see is attacks on CMA, even when they are not there.

A kick is not a kick because there are a variety of different kicks that are useful in different scenarios.

The flicky little toe kick that does no damage with sandals becomes a devastating strike when done with pointy-toe cowboy boots.

The devastating shin kick that knocks the wind out of your opponent doesn't do much when you and your opponent are in snowboarding clothes.

A shin kick is not necessarily a shin kick and a flicky toe kick is not a necessarily flicky toe kick.... and a flicky toe kick is definitely not a roundhouse shin kick.

[gabe]

Those techniques are not useless at all. In fact they can be killler tools to have in one's toolbox. However, you've got to know when to use them and when to not use them. Trying to eye gouge someone when you are mounted on them is hugely different than trying to eye gouge someone when the postitions are reversed. The first is highly effective. The second is a big mistake.

I could show you some devastating toe breaks. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to use them unless you were skilled at getting into position and isolating the foot.

Some of the Filipino biting "systems" can be very effective. These techniques are much more effective for someone who understads the positioning that is used in MMA fighting.


They are most effective for the more effective fighter.


But the MMA fighter is usually more adept at getting to a position to deliver them.



The point that the TMA artists make is that these things would even the playing field if they were allowed... they would not, however, make things more even. They would just tilt them more in favor of the MMA fighters.

I agree with everything except that last bit, which isn't worth arguing.

[David Jamieson]

jeebas...this show is still on? when's the simpsons coming on? :p

technique is only any good if you land it. you can throw a lot of high power techs and get and end result of zero if defense if played proper. Heck you might even get countered and dumped.

there's plenty of power techs in both tma and mma and the landing of them has a lot of factors.

i can say one thing, the longer this argument goes, the weaker it gets for those overzealous proponents of mma. If and when cma decides to en masse adapt and tailor training towards ufc types matches then it is what it is. Im sure there will be more than 1 or 2 representatives of traditional arts eventually.

just add more endurance training and add a bit o'grappling to the mix and dumb down everything to the basics and hang on to whatever your good at so long as it falls in the rule set and you're good to go. By adding the wrestling aspect you will not be view as a tma-ist anymore though. lol :p

[MasterKiller]

i have to say i agree with these rules, although i would like to see chin na used. that would take it to a good level.


Lots of fights already end in joint locks and chokes.

Chin Na does not = wrist locks only.

KF will correct me, I'm sure, but a lot of the standard BJJ submissions were introduced relatively late, mostly from outside Judo influences--kimura and triangle choke come to mind -- and were not in the 'original' BJJ.

[YiLiQuan1]

I get a real kick out of the TMA/MMA internet squabbles. From my training experience and personal changes of opinion, the conflict arises when MMA nutrider tells TMA/CMA nutrider that "your deadly art sucks because..." The MMAist misses some pertinent points in his ignorant harangue, and the CMAist, more knowledgeable on the subject, takes offense and fires back with a rebuttal the MMAist simply can't understand due to a lack of reference.

But the exact same thing happens when TMA/CMA nutrider tells the MMA nutrider that "your sport art sucks because..." The CMAist, having virtually no time mounted by someone else, and quite likely without the first clue as to how some (if not most) ground fighting techniques are applied, misses some pertinent points in his juvenile adherence to Master Po's teaching, and the MMAist, knowing better, fires back a rebuttal that the TMA/CMAist is woefully unprepared to accept or understand.

It's an ongoing battle, fueled by the ignorance of both parties.

I've done TMA/CMA for 21 years now. I previously felt that grappling was a joke, a gimmick, and that a striker worth his salt would have no problem whatsoever dispatching a would-be "gh3y" grappler during his initial approach for a takedown.

Then I started doing some grappling training courtesy of the U.S. Army's Combatives program (coupled with some Judo/Jujutsu tutoring from a friend).

It boils down, very simply, to the fact that easily 90% of TMA/CMA folks will never test themselves in anything resembling an "alive" (Gods how I hate that word) manner. They'll accept the word of their sensei/sifu/sabum as Gospel and go with whatever he/she/it tells them, never once questioning for themselves. That's where they go wrong.

It's also a case of 90% of MMA folks giving absolutely no credence to a) styles with long histories of use and b) ignoring modern history. My favorite is "TMA doesn't work in the ring," and "reverse punches are bull." Especially when Chuck Liddell, a TMAist (originally) employs repeated reverse punches to knock the faces off his opponents with predictable regularity.

The only True Path (c) is to open your eyes, tuck your opinion in your pocket, and train without judgement. Being in the Mount rocks. Being mounted does not. I use my TMA/CMA just fine during stand up, and even when on the ground. But dominant position is dominant position, and MMA/TMA won't do you much good if you can't respond appropriately to what your opponent is force feeding you while mounted on your chest...

Enjoy.

[Fu-Pow]

It's all irrelevant: If you want to enter a sporting competition you have to follow the rules.

What are you telling us? That if you go into a sports ring you're not going to be able to win without grabbing someone's clavicle? That it's going to cramp your style? Be serious, what proportion of your art is clavicle grabbing? :confused: :rolleyes: :D


I understand you argument but the other factor here is timing. Yeah, maybe an elbow or eye gouge isn't a bread and butter technique but in a real fight, not sport, you need to be able to use whatever tactic is available to use....AT THE MOMENT IT IS NEEDED!

When your personal saftey is on the line then you may only have one opportunity and you may only have a couple milliseconds to react.

When fighting within a set of "rules" then you must intentionally adjust from the most efficient method of attack or defense to something that is less efficient simply because it fits within a rule set.

Let me give you an example. In Taiji punches we hit with fist, elbow, shoulder. It is all one movement, if the fist misses the head, then then elbow hits the chest and the if that misses then the shoulder drives into the body.

If I'm fighting in sport venue where the elbow cannot be used, then my shoulder is out as well and I have to adjust my game....to be less efficient....to fit the rules...to only hit with my fists.

It is no wonder then that most kung fu fighters end up looking like "kick boxers" in the ring. In those moments when they might have chosen another anatomical weapon they will go back to what fits within the rules not what is most expedient...which is what you would want to use in a real fight.

Having said all this, there is definite value in free sparring, whatever the rules. The more "realistic" you can make those rules, the better. BTW, "realistic" doesn't necessarily mean "with the most force." It can also mean using the most amount of weapons available (which in a street fight=ALL!). Often it means striking a balance between the two.

The issue for your kung fu is when you start COMPETING within a specific rule set. In order to be competitive you have to train ad nauseum certain techniques that fit within that rule set in order to be competitive...the techniques that are most expedient within that rule set....but not necessarily the techniques that are most expedient in a street altercation.

So I look at sparring as a useful training tool but when you take it to an extreme (as in competition) then you may be negating more efficient ways of moving to get the same result. It would be nice if we could just "change it up" for ring or for sport but we only have one body and in fighting we rely on muscle memory .....often we have milliseconds to react and counter so there is no thought of "changing it up" to be found.

So I think you really do have to choose where you want to focus your training, to the ring or to the street. These are analogs to each other and not the same thing. There is an overlap, of course, but the goals are very different. This will determine how you train.

Peace.

FP

[Knifefighter]

just add more endurance training and add a bit o'grappling to the mix and dumb down everything to the basics and hang on to whatever your good at so long as it falls in the rule set and you're good to go. By adding the wrestling aspect you will not be view as a tma-ist anymore though. lol :p
And guess what you will have... an MMA training program.

And, no, you would not have a TMA person anymore.

Just like MMA guys who originally started in boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, or Sambo are no longer specialists in those arts anymore.

[Knifefighter]

Let me give you an example. In Taiji punches we hit with fist, elbow, shoulder. It is all one movement, if the fist misses the head, then then elbow hits the chest and the if that misses then the shoulder drives into the body.

If I'm fighting in sport venue where the elbow cannot be used, then my shoulder is out as well and I have to adjust my game....to be less efficient....to fit the rules...to only hit with my fists.
As does everyone else.

BTW, last time I check most MMA venues allowed elbows and shoulders.


So I think you really do have to choose where you want to focus your training, to the ring or to the street. These are analogs to each other and not the same thing. There is an overlap, of course, but the goals are very different. This will determine how you train.
Can you give some specific examples of how your street training differs from someone who does sport training.

[Knifefighter]

I got taken down by a guy 75-100 pounds bigger than me after a minute or two of stand up (this was a street fight) and guess what got him off me and ended the fight? A reverse tiger claw thumb in the eye socket four fingers under his jawed. Pulled that guy right off me and ended the fight with him going to the hospital.
I think this thread is about UFC/MMA fighting and the restricted techniques in that venue. Eye gouging a trained groundfighter when he is mounted is completely different than doing it to someone with whom you are fighting on the street and who is probably clueless about groundfighting.

[The Xia]

According to what you posted, your own sifu was highly adept at clawing.

[Flying-Monkey]

And people wonder why I deride kung fu guys.

It's really hard to keep from busting out laughing when reading some of this stuff from people who's closest encounter with MMA is to see it on television.


Too funny.,
Give me a break.
How many clavicles have you dislocated by grabbing and squeezing them?
Talk about clueless.





You don't squeeze. you grab and pull down. I have done this twice. Once was an accident. Both times those guys could not lift their arm.

You are clueless to real CMA. You must be a half-ass MMAist to be on a CMA forum all of the time.

[lkfmdc]

According to what you posted, your own sifu was highly adept at clawing.

MY sifu had a very strong grip, which he used for a variety of things but NOT for trying to pull on a clavicle :rolleyes:

IN all the years I've trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren't CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS...

[The Xia]

So, I guess it's time to dig up "John Marsh vs San Soo kung fu" guy clip since that fight had no rules. Mr San Soo tried to eye gouge, grab hair, etc.... if I remember correctly, Mr San Soo said he was gonna take an eye out BEFORE THE FIGHT
That video doesn't discount Kung Fu or eye gouges. All it showed was a big, muscular, MMA guy beating a small guy who thought he had more skills then he did.

[lkfmdc]

I think this thread is about UFC/MMA fighting and the restricted techniques in that venue. Eye gouging a trained groundfighter when he is mounted is completely different than doing it to someone with whom you are fighting on the street and who is probably clueless about groundfighting.

We call it alternately "idiot testing" or "little sister testing".... ie "I used it once on this idiot and it worked" or "I did it on my little sister and it worked"...

Stories like that mean NOTHING.... Try it on someone with basic ground fighting knowledge (Sambo, BJJ, Judo, what have you) and see what happens... and, again, we aren't even talking elite fighters. Anyone with a few months of BJJ can avoid an eye gouge and get that arm lock to break....

[gabe]

I think this thread is about UFC/MMA fighting and the restricted techniques in that venue. Eye gouging a trained groundfighter when he is mounted is completely different than doing it to someone with whom you are fighting on the street and who is probably clueless about groundfighting.

Anything will work on someone who is clueless LOL.

Odd things work on the trained professionals too. If an opportunity arises, whoops, there goes the eye. Now, KF, if you really focused on eyegouging at all opportunties you can find or create in your training program, I bet you'd get pretty **** good at it. And I bet your grappling game would be completely different if headbutts or biting were allowed.

[The Xia]

IN all the years I've trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren't CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS...
What about the "real deal" CMA people you met over the years? Not the bottom of the barrel that some MMA people think represents all Kung Fu. For example, you praised the Shuai Jiao folks you trained with. What about them? What about Wong Ching and that crowd? Hows about Adam Hsu? How were the grips of these martial artists?

[Flying-Monkey]

MY sifu had a very strong grip, which he used for a variety of things but NOT for trying to pull on a clavicle :rolleyes:

IN all the years I've trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren't CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS...

When did I state that the clavicle pull is the holy grail of CMA? You guys need to stop.

Ikfmdc

Why do you even claim Sifu Chan Tai San lineage? It seems you only use his name and greatness to promote yourself. You are not even a kung fu artist.

[lkfmdc]

fence hopping Ross.

(snip)

No matter how Ross tries to deny it, he is a CMA player making it work.



There's definitely a fence, and I definitely sit on one side of it. The side I sit on is people who are grounded in reality and working to make themselves better. They don't have to be pro fighters, they don't even have to be amateurs. But they have open minds, work hard and test what they do

I could care less what others want to label me. I've clearly said my base is the material CTS taught me. I've also said I have no problem giving credit to western boxing, Greco Roman, BJJ, Judo, and other non CMA I've studied

What's funnier is that some people on here would rather try and rant and rave for days to DENY my CMA than to call me a "CMA player" so whose in "denial"?

[gabe]

We call it alternately "idiot testing" or "little sister testing".... ie "I used it once on this idiot and it worked" or "I did it on my little sister and it worked"...

Stories like that mean NOTHING.... Try it on someone with basic ground fighting knowledge (Sambo, BJJ, Judo, what have you) and see what happens... and, again, we aren't even talking elite fighters. Anyone with a few months of BJJ can avoid an eye gouge and get that arm lock to break....

I thought these techniques didn't work period. Now they don't work against "trained" or "elite" fighters. Cuz you would have done this and then that and then this!

Trained or elite fighters are hard to fight period. Sometimes they can reverse a situation, sometimes they can't. How often do you watch MMA matches and ask yourself how the heck did he just get caught with that? $hit happens all the time.

[lkfmdc]

Ikfmdc

Why do you even claim Sifu Chan Tai San lineage?



Uh, let's see, because he is my teacher and I spent over 16 years with him... :rolleyes:




It seems you only use his name and greatness to promote yourself.


How do I use his name? My school isn't named after him. MY web page isn't covered in pictures of him. MY web page doesn't have his name mentioned on every single page, every other paragraph. I'd bet you most people wouldn't even know I was a CTS student from a casual read of my web page

Frankly, I don't and never needed CTS name to promote myself. My school, the classes, the material I teach my students, the hours I spend with them and the RESULTS are how I've promoted myself

Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm known for producing fighters that win, not CTS. In fact, in the circles I run in a lot of people don't know a tiger claw from a bear claw pastry....




You are not even and kung fu artist.



Funny, I just posted a response to Abel along these lines. Funny how people can't grasp that a person who is only interested in fighting is a CMA player? Sort of sad actually :D

[lkfmdc]

I thought these techniques didn't work period.



Re-read some of the posts. They are LOW PERCENTAGE and they won't work if you don't have a "delivery system". They won't be of any use to you if you can't block a hook, avoid a takedown or escape a bottom position




Now they don't work against "trained" or "elite" fighters.

Cuz you would have done this and then that and then this!



I think you ignored the entire second part of my post about how we are NOT talking about elite fighters. Anyone with a few months basic ground fighting training is gonna counter your "tricks"

[Shaolinlueb]

You guys are too funny. You are so caught up in defending your little CMA worlds that you miss any useful points. All you see is attacks on CMA, even when they are not there.

A kick is not a kick because there are a variety of different kicks that are useful in different scenarios.

The flicky little toe kick that does no damage with sandals becomes a devastating strike when done with pointy-toe cowboy boots.

The devastating shin kick that knocks the wind out of your opponent doesn't do much when you and your opponent are in snowboarding clothes.

A shin kick is not necessarily a shin kick and a flicky toe kick is not a necessarily flicky toe kick.... and a flicky toe kick is definitely not a roundhouse shin kick.


:rolleyes:
yeah ok, you still missed the point.

[Flying-Monkey]

Uh, let's see, because he is my teacher and I spent over 16 years with him... :rolleyes:



How do I use his name? My school isn't named after him. MY web page isn't covered in pictures of him. MY web page doesn't have his name mentioned on every single page, every other paragraph. I'd bet you most people wouldn't even know I was a CTS student from a casual read of my web page

Frankly, I don't and never needed CTS name to promote myself. My school, the classes, the material I teach my students, the hours I spend with them and the RESULTS are how I've promoted myself

Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm known for producing fighters that win, not CTS. In fact, in the circles I run in a lot of people don't know a tiger claw from a bear claw pastry....



Funny, I just posted a response to Abel along these lines. Funny how people can't grasp that a person who is only interested in fighting is a CMA player? Sort of sad actually :D


You sure do use him to promote youself on this forum and probably in the CMA community. You don't use him to promote yourself in the MMA community, because they think kung fu is a joke(good master or bad master).

[The Xia]

IN all the years I've trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren't CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS...
What about the "real deal" CMA people you met over the years? Not the bottom of the barrel that some MMA people think represents all Kung Fu. For example, you praised the Shuai Jiao folks you trained with. What about them? What about Wong Ching and that crowd? Hows about Adam Hsu? How were the grips of these martial artists?

[lkfmdc]

You sure do use him to promote youself on this forum


If you say so, except, HOW? How do I use him to promote myself on this forum? What am I even promoting? For the most part, like KF, I log on here for amusement and to chat with a few friends...




and probably in the CMA community.



I like that you used "probably". At least you admit you have no idea. Here's the straight stuff, I don't even deal with the CMA community. We don't do forms, they don't fight, we have no common interest...




You don't use him to promote yourself in the MMA community, because they think kung fu is a joke(good master or bad master).



I don't "use" my master in ANY WAY. Other than I have his picture in his altar in my school and the obvious fact that he is my teacher...

[lkfmdc]

What about the "real deal" CMA people you met over the years? Not the bottom of the barrel that some MMA people think represents all Kung Fu. For example, you praised the Shuai Jiao folks you trained with. What about them? What about Wong Ching and that crowd? Hows about Adam Hsu? How were the grips of these martial artists?

Sorry, to me Shuai Jiao people are GRAPPLERS... much more in common with MMA people that with the run of the mill TCMA crowd

For ONE Wong Ching there has to be 5000 TCMA teachers who haven't the foggiest on what fighting is about

I found Adam Hus skilled at sword, knowledgable about history, had excellent theory and application knowledge, but I never found him to be much of a fighter. His student Janet who fought originally trained with Lai Hung. Not to start an argument, but I felt he fighting was already pretty established by the time she changed schools

[SevenStar]

So the eye gouge sevenstar mentioned was part of that 1%? According to your theory, the eyegouge sevenstar mentioned should never have worked right?

for all practical purposes, it didn't work. He still lost the fight. And the guy he gouged not only beat him with one eye, but beat his opponent after that.


Really skilled fighters make the improbable work.

Not necessarily. Really skilled fighters maximize the probable. keep it simple.


So does chance and luck. And shockingly, so does hard training. Not all illegal techniques are impossible to train. Do some searches and you'll see plenty of improbable or so-called low percentage techniques working quite well.

what do you consider well, and where are they working? against whom?


The point is, just because some techniques are not suitable for the ring doesn't mean they are not effective.

true.

[gabe]

Re-read some of the posts. They are LOW PERCENTAGE and they won't work if you don't have a "delivery system". They won't be of any use to you if you can't block a hook, avoid a takedown or escape a bottom position



I think you ignored the entire second part of my post about how we are NOT talking about elite fighters. Anyone with a few months basic ground fighting training is gonna counter your "tricks"

You call them "tricks." KF and I call them effective techniques- that happen to be restricted from competition. And again, are you saying that all those great grapplers, and I'm not being sarcastic, are never in a position during a UFC match where they might be hit with a headbutt? Whether on the ground or within a clinch. Did you think that maybe they might never prepare for that because they are against the rules. How do you know they are low percentage? They are banned. Like I said before, take a real grappler, add a headbutt to his game and see if it's still low percentage.
I don't think anyone has said that a delivery system is not needed. Is your argument then that CMA's don't provide a delivery system? I think your teacher would disagree. Oh yeah, CMA's that work aren't really TMA's in your book. I think you are now just as guilty at the strawman deal.

[SevenStar]

Let me give you an example. In Taiji punches we hit with fist, elbow, shoulder. It is all one movement, if the fist misses the head, then then elbow hits the chest and the if that misses then the shoulder drives into the body.

boxing coach freddie roach has been quoted as saying "If a good hook misses, the elbow lands"

However, fist, then elbow to the body, followed by a shoulder? that makes me think that the initial "punch" is really more of a push. Is that so? Is there a clip somewhere where I can see that and get a better understanding?


It is no wonder then that most kung fu fighters end up looking like "kick boxers" in the ring. In those moments when they might have chosen another anatomical weapon they will go back to what fits within the rules not what is most expedient...which is what you would want to use in a real fight.

why is there no venue to cover these differences? they don't seem to be taken care of in san shou and shuai chiao.

[Royal Dragon]

For the same reason small joint manipulations are banned in MMA

[SevenStar]

nah - FP mentioned elbowing and shouldering - even though shouldering is not illegal in any venue I know of. in kickboxing, you can't elbow at all, and in some muay thai as well. However, doesn't san shou have this same limitation? so to FP's point, why not have a venue that allows such?

[omarthefish]

You sure do use yourself to promote him on this forum and probably in the CMA community. ....

Fixed that for ya.

[Flying-Monkey]

If you say so, except, HOW? How do I use him to promote myself on this forum? What am I even promoting? For the most part, like KF, I log on here for amusement and to chat with a few friends...

Who has the banner
"I am a disciple of the late Chan Tai San, a true master of Chinese martial art."
I like that you used "probably". At least you admit you have no idea. Here's the straight stuff, I don't even deal with the CMA community. We don't do forms, they don't fight, we have no common interest...

Have you ever written an article about Chinese Martial Arts in a Chinese Martial Arts based magazine? If yes, were you knocking CMA like you do in this forum?

What about "Chan Tai San Stories"?

I don't "use" my master in ANY WAY. Other than I have his picture in his altar in my school and the obvious fact that he is my teacher...

Who has the banner
"I am a disciple of the late Chan Tai San, a true master of Chinese martial art."

You acting like that does not give you any props in the CMA community. CMA Challengers would think twice before challenge you; one reason being who your teacher was and how powerful he was.





Please.....

[lkfmdc]

Who has the banner
"I am a disciple of the late Chan Tai San, a true master of Chinese martial art."



Actually, it's a sig line :rolleyes:
But again, I AM a disciple of CTS... so what exactly is your point?




Have you ever written an article about Chinese Martial Arts in a Chinese Martial Arts based magazine?



Dear lord, new kid on the block? Only about 60 articles over the years.....





If yes, were you knocking CMA like you do in this forum?



Depends upon your definition of "knocking"? I like to think of my posts as "wake the F up and smell the coffee".... but some people prefer to stay asleep :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

You sure do use him to promote youself on this forum and probably in the CMA community. You don't use him to promote yourself in the MMA community, because they think kung fu is a joke(good master or bad master).
As Omar said, if anything, Ross promotes his teacher's memory- probably because he is proud and happy of the time he spent with him. Ross gets nothing out of the deal. It's not like he gets people from here flocking to his school when he posts about hm.

[Knifefighter]

Now, KF, if you really focused on eyegouging at all opportunties you can find or create in your training program, I bet you'd get pretty **** good at it. And I bet your grappling game would be completely different if headbutts or biting were allowed.
Exactly... the MMA paradigm would be perfect for that... all you'd need to would be to use some type of eye protection system and train the same as you would for MMA.
Same goes for biting and headbutts.

[Flying-Monkey]

Actually, it's a sig line :rolleyes:
But again, I AM a disciple of CTS... so what exactly is your point?



Dear lord, new kid on the block? Only about 60 articles over the years.....




Depends upon your definition of "knocking"? I like to think of my posts as "wake the F up and smell the coffee".... but some people prefer to stay asleep :rolleyes:

You are a disciple of CTS... Ok. Why display it. I am a disciple of Chan Kai Leung. I do not brag.

If you want to poke at semantics (banner & signature), what is the reason for displaying I am a disciple of CTS? Why not just have "CTS was great and powerful MAist: a true master of Chinese martial arts."?

I probably have read some of your articles. They were probably well written and informative. You are promoting CMA by showing the goodness in it.

Dude, if you read our exchange again you will see my point. If you do not, ask me and I will try to rewrite it in a way you can understand. You being a smartass is not cool. I am not Green Cloud; I will not put up with that sh!t. We can talk about our ideas like adults.

[lkfmdc]

some people get it, some people don't, let the death matches begin :cool:

[Flying-Monkey]

some people get it, some people don't, let the death matches begin :cool:

What does this post mean?

[lkfmdc]

You being a smartass is not cool. I am not Green Cloud; I will not put up with that sh!t.

Did I mis - quote you? I expect a challenge any momment now, since I'm such a smartass....

HOnestly, my take, either you understand what I'm saying or you don't. Either you agree with me or you don't. Obviously, a lot of people don't get what I'm saying, and a lot get freaked out... but honeslty I don't care... I don't consider facts "bragging" nor do I consider the truth an insult...

[YiLiQuan1]

What does this post mean?

I think it means "those who hold onto myths and fairy tales will never relinquish their grip on them, no matter the facts presented."

Either/both camp(s) hang onto their own myths and fairy tales. If someone is really approaching their training with "eyes wide open," then they'll see past the stories. If they're only coming in with one eye open, focused on their particular camp, they'll miss the reality of what the other camp may offer. If they're training with "eyes wide shut," then it doesn't matter what anyone says, and only real-time, full-contact failure is going to wake them up.

Gods help them should it ever come to that.

[Flying-Monkey]

Did I mis - quote you? I expect a challenge any momment now, since I'm such a smartass....

HOnestly, my take, either you understand what I'm saying or you don't. Either you agree with me or you don't. Obviously, a lot of people don't get what I'm saying, and a lot get freaked out... but honeslty I don't care... I don't consider facts "bragging" nor do I consider the truth an insult...

I am not going to challenge you when I live in Japan. If I do ever challenge you, I WILL NOT back down.

[fiercest tiger]

Flying Monkey,

Ross likes reading his own post he gets off arguing then challenges you when you live across the otherside of the world. Then he says ill get my guys to fight for me!!! hahahahah He lives off the name of his dead teacher, claims Bak Mei system apart salsa dancing i mean san da, BJJ, and the king of San Da hahahaha come on what has he won, he should call his students the KING of sanda cause he hasnt proven anything.

Dont bother with ROSS, he is a TURD!

Good going ROSS you did it again, couldnt help yourself could you!! hahahaha

[lkfmdc]

Gary, aka "fierce tiger" :rolleyes: I guess you didn't learn your lesson when Gene locked the other thread for your ho mo phobic remarks and childish behavior?

I see you still can't type a single sentence coherently....

[fiercest tiger]

I guess not, you still a fake wanna be? :)

[SifuAbel]

You guys are too funny. You are so caught up in defending your little CMA worlds that you miss any useful points. All you see is attacks on CMA, even when they are not there.

A kick is not a kick because there are a variety of different kicks that are useful in different scenarios.

The flicky little toe kick that does no damage with sandals becomes a devastating strike when done with pointy-toe cowboy boots.

The devastating shin kick that knocks the wind out of your opponent doesn't do much when you and your opponent are in snowboarding clothes.

A shin kick is not necessarily a shin kick and a flicky toe kick is not a necessarily flicky toe kick.... and a flicky toe kick is definitely not a roundhouse shin kick.

WhoTF kicks with their toes? You sound like a 10 years old.

[Knifefighter]

Maybe I'll show you when I give you your sparring lesson.

[Chief Fox]

Has anyone else noticed that lkfmdc, through no fault of his own, is some kind of confrontation magnet?

I guess he just brings out the worst in people. :D

[lkfmdc]

Chief Fox,

Like I said just a little earlier, I don't care what others think and I don't hold my tongue with my opinions. For a lot of people, that becomes a problem. I state a simple fact, like I studied with several well respected sifu, and that's "bragging". I don't pat people on the head and tell them that they're deadly kung fu machines, I point out a lot of inconsistencies and flat out BS in TCMA... so I'm "knocking" CMA... Some people want to call me a "sell out" because I don't simply do what was done before... but again, I don't care what others think, don't care what they want to label me, and the truth is still the truth, even if it hurts your feelings

[fiercest tiger]

Talk about inconsistence as well a hypocrite!! You said to Greencloud about his Krav Maga and all the other things he supposively teachers at his school now its ok for you to be teaching a whole lot of stuff and its okay???


:rolleyes:

[Yum Cha]

I get a real kick out of the TMA/MMA internet squabbles. From my training experience and personal changes of opinion, the conflict arises when MMA nutrider tells TMA/CMA nutrider that "your deadly art sucks because..." The MMAist misses some pertinent points in his ignorant harangue, and the CMAist, more knowledgeable on the subject, takes offense and fires back with a rebuttal the MMAist simply can't understand due to a lack of reference.

But the exact same thing happens when TMA/CMA nutrider tells the MMA nutrider that "your sport art sucks because..." The CMAist, having virtually no time mounted by someone else, and quite likely without the first clue as to how some (if not most) ground fighting techniques are applied, misses some pertinent points in his juvenile adherence to Master Po's teaching, and the MMAist, knowing better, fires back a rebuttal that the TMA/CMAist is woefully unprepared to accept or understand.

It's an ongoing battle, fueled by the ignorance of both parties.

I've done TMA/CMA for 21 years now. I previously felt that grappling was a joke, a gimmick, and that a striker worth his salt would have no problem whatsoever dispatching a would-be "gh3y" grappler during his initial approach for a takedown.

Then I started doing some grappling training courtesy of the U.S. Army's Combatives program (coupled with some Judo/Jujutsu tutoring from a friend).

It boils down, very simply, to the fact that easily 90% of TMA/CMA folks will never test themselves in anything resembling an "alive" (Gods how I hate that word) manner. They'll accept the word of their sensei/sifu/sabum as Gospel and go with whatever he/she/it tells them, never once questioning for themselves. That's where they go wrong.

It's also a case of 90% of MMA folks giving absolutely no credence to a) styles with long histories of use and b) ignoring modern history. My favorite is "TMA doesn't work in the ring," and "reverse punches are bull." Especially when Chuck Liddell, a TMAist (originally) employs repeated reverse punches to knock the faces off his opponents with predictable regularity.

The only True Path (c) is to open your eyes, tuck your opinion in your pocket, and train without judgement. Being in the Mount rocks. Being mounted does not. I use my TMA/CMA just fine during stand up, and even when on the ground. But dominant position is dominant position, and MMA/TMA won't do you much good if you can't respond appropriately to what your opponent is force feeding you while mounted on your chest...

Enjoy.


Amen brother!

[Fu-Pow]

boxing coach freddie roach has been quoted as saying "If a good hook misses, the elbow lands"

Very true. The hook and elbow strike are almost the same **** move.



However, fist, then elbow to the body, followed by a shoulder? that makes me think that the initial "punch" is really more of a push. Is that so? Is there a clip somewhere where I can see that and get a better understanding?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wfKH6IRqmI&mode=related&search=

Here is a video of my teacher's teacher. I believe that he does the "shoulder stroke" at one point in this vid. However, he is already in striking range with the shoulder so you don't see the first two possible strikes. Maybe someone else has a vid from Chen Taiji. I'll look around on the net tommorrow and see if I can come up with a better example.



why is there no venue to cover these differences? they don't seem to be taken care of in san shou and shuai chiao.

Hmm...not sure what you are asking?:confused:

[Chief Fox]

Chief Fox,

Like I said just a little earlier, I don't care what others think and I don't hold my tongue with my opinions. For a lot of people, that becomes a problem. I state a simple fact, like I studied with several well respected sifu, and that's "bragging". I don't pat people on the head and tell them that they're deadly kung fu machines, I point out a lot of inconsistencies and flat out BS in TCMA... so I'm "knocking" CMA... Some people want to call me a "sell out" because I don't simply do what was done before... but again, I don't care what others think, don't care what they want to label me, and the truth is still the truth, even if it hurts your feelings

Did you see the smiley face at the end of my post?

I've said it before, it seams like you got a good thing going, so who cares what others think.

I just think it's funny that people keep giving you cr@p about it.

[lkfmdc]

Did you see the smiley face at the end of my post?


Yes, that's why I didn't immediately challenge you to 2 am sledge hammers at the land fill :p

note the :p

or is :D better?

But whether you were serious or not, I still feel the same way as I post




I've said it before, it seams like you got a good thing going,

I just think it's funny that people keep giving you cr@p about it.



The two issues are related.....

[Chief Fox]

Yes, that's why I didn't immediately challenge you to 2 am sledge hammers at the land fill :p


I'll be there! You can use a full size 16lb. sledge and I'll only use a 2lb. sledge.

But I can't do it today. And tomorrow doesn't really work out either. I'm tied up all weekend and I'm going out of town next week.... I'll have to let you know when.

[lkfmdc]

I'll be there! You can use a full size 16lb. sledge and I'll only use a 2lb. sledge.

But I can't do it today. And tomorrow doesn't really work out either. I'm tied up all weekend and I'm going out of town next week.... I'll have to let you know when.

I'm a real kung fu guy, so we have to use the 20 lb sledges and I have to wear my kung fu shoes... other than that, I'm not being unreasonable, but I need it to be next Tuesday, I have privates to teach... at you have to be there exactly at 2 am.. if you show up late, it's off, if you show up early, it's off

Oh, and I'm getting a restraining order against you and I'll shoot you if you come near me :D

[Knifefighter]

Very true. The hook and elbow strike are almost the same **** move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wfKH6IRqmI&mode=related&search=

Here is a video of my teacher's teacher. I believe that he does the "shoulder stroke" at one point in this vid.
Why is this video called "real fight"?
And what's up with the guy in white running backwards and falling down on his a$$
and basically falling over every time he gets touched?
And what's up with the head butt to the stomach?
And why are they so off balance?

[Chief Fox]

I'm a real kung fu guy, so we have to use the 20 lb sledges and I have to wear my kung fu shoes... other than that, I'm not being unreasonable, but I need it to be next Tuesday, I have privates to teach... at you have to be there exactly at 2 am.. if you show up late, it's off, if you show up early, it's off

Oh, and I'm getting a restraining order against you and I'll shoot you if you come near me :D
That's fine but keep in mind that I've recently stubbed my toe and I'm still recovering. Oh and you can bring all of your friends, I'll fight all of them at the same time blindfolded.

Yeah, you're so tuff, you and all of your friends beating up a blindfolded guy with a stubbed toe.

[lkfmdc]

:D


That's fine but keep in mind that I've recently stubbed my toe and I'm still recovering. Oh and you can bring all of your friends, I'll fight all of them at the same time blindfolded.

Yeah, you're so tuff, you and all of your friends beating up a blindfolded guy with a stubbed toe.

LOL :D

Dude, I have gotta buy you a pizza and a beer :p

[Chief Fox]

:D

LOL :D

Dude, I have gotta buy you a pizza and a beer :p
Maybe some chicken wings and beer. I know just the place.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41895000/jpg/_41895792_hootergirl1.jpg

[lkfmdc]

ttt for chicken wings ;)

[unkokusai]

But I can't do it today. And tomorrow doesn't really work out either. I'm tied up all weekend and I'm going out of town next week.... I'll have to let you know when.

LOL! You left out the part about some injury that's only 20% healed, but when it's 60% healed - watch out! :D

[unkokusai]

I'm a real kung fu guy, so we have to use the 20 lb sledges and I have to wear my kung fu shoes... other than that, I'm not being unreasonable, but I need it to be next Tuesday, I have privates to teach... at you have to be there exactly at 2 am.. if you show up late, it's off, if you show up early, it's off

Oh, and I'm getting a restraining order against you and I'll shoot you if you come near me :D




LOL! :D


Now this is entertainment!

[lkfmdc]

LOL! :D


Now this is entertainment!

Hypothetical phone call (in NEVER happened)

A: hello, pink walrus kung fu center, how can I help you?

B: Hi, I'd like directions to your school, or how about your HOUSE

A: who is this?

B: I'm the twice removed 3rd cousin of a friend of the guy you insulted on the internet

A: oh wooops

B: I understand you don't want to actually fight, you want to 'save face"

A: yeah, yeah, I want to save face

B: great, I'll help you 'save face', I'll cut your face off and put it in my refrigerator and save it

A: if you come near me I'll shoot you

B: please try

A: I got a restraining order on you!

B: really? on a Sunday? the judge came in and signed it on a Sunday? And I was served with it?

A: uh, I'll get a restraining order

B: great, you do that....

[Chief Fox]

B: great, I'll help you 'save face', I'll cut your face off and put it in my refrigerator and save it


LOL. Twisted! :D

[lkfmdc]

it has to be the best line I ever heard, uh, of course it never happened ;)

[Flying-Monkey]

Keep talking sh!t while you can. You guys will get what's coming to you.

[lkfmdc]

Keep talking sh!t while you can. You guys will get what's coming to you.

so, I was right, any minute now a challenge from Japan!

Go back and get the cliff notes, I didn't challenge anyone, I just accepted, then the fun began

[Chief Fox]

Keep talking sh!t while you can. You guys will get what's coming to you.

I have a case of the squirts today, is that what you mean?

[lkfmdc]

I think maybe it means if we keep talking sh!t then we'll be visited by the Knights of Standards and Practices :eek:

Or maybe Gene will come knocking on the door late at night with a spear :eek:

[Flying-Monkey]

I am in Japan. It would be silly to challenge you while I am here.

[lkfmdc]

I am in Japan. It would be silly to challenge you while I am here.

BINGO! That would be correct, but the saber rattling is sort of the same thing don't you think?

Personally, I think you're taking yourself way too seriously... do you somehow think Chief Fox and I are actually setting up sledge hammers at 2 am? :cool:

[Sui]

BINGO ??????gorilla pie man don't you mean

"ooawww chumoan."lolololol

you know it you know it..........."ooawww chumoan."lolololol

"Personally, I think you're taking yourself way too seriously... "

yeah chill have a pie,but don't take any from gorrilla pie man lolololololool

"ooawww chumoan."lolololol

[lkfmdc]

(the following post is not intended to insult the mentally retarded)

Have you ever seen a mentally retarded kid just standing there and laughing out loud? In his mind he is thinking of something really funny, but his complete inability to share his thoughts with others is really sad... some people point and say "look at that tard" but others can appreciate that it isn't their fault they are deficient in some way. Then there are those who simply are proud of how ignorant and uneducated they are, and still think they are funny :rolleyes:

[fiercest tiger]

Ross, challenges people then says ill get my guys to fight yours, too busy eating pies again ross?

Sui,

See LAMA PIE fat master goes from thread to thread challenging people to eating pies. Cream puff kid!!

[fiercest tiger]

Gene closed down the other forum, was getting hot as a pie over there! ah well, the problem is ross cant stop eating and eating, rolling with the cream.:rolleyes:

[Sui]

yeah got me down to a tee,at least i'm in peace,you on the other are full of pie gorrilla man

"I think maybe it means if we keep talking sh!t then we'll be visited by the Knights of Standards and Practices" quote from yes you know.

talking Sh!te is your specialty.lolololololol

"ooawww chumoan."lolololol
you know and answer to the gorrilla pie man,you fat B@stard who ate the pie ,you know and thats all that matters.hahahahahahaahahah

[Sui]

sh!t gene's gonna bann some -one off see ya later gorrilla pie man i'm running:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[fiercest tiger]

hey, ill catch you later benny hill!!! :eek:

PIE ON THE RUN FOR THER FAT MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

[lkfmdc]

What's hysterical is these two think they're actually being funny :rolleyes:

Normally, I'd wonder what their students would think of them posting like 10 year olds but then I remember that Gary said he has no students..

I still suggest an adult literacy program for both of you

[fiercest tiger]

I do have students not competing you dumb F@t F@CK, you retarded??

lmao

Thankyou and good night!!!:D

[Sui]

yes very hysterical.lolololol

"adult" didn't think thats you sort of thing "ooawww chumoan."lolololol

[lkfmdc]

I would just like to thank Sui and Tiger for this pic of them as they think about their next posts

http://members.visi.net/~mtoscano/crap/pcs/new2/sagangsta18im.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Talk about inconsistence as well a hypocrite!! You said to Greencloud about his Krav Maga and all the other things he supposively teachers at his school now its ok for you to be teaching a whole lot of stuff and its okay???


:rolleyes:

Dave's wasn't knocking Green Cloud for teaching different things at his school, he was simply pointing out things that he said he was teaching that he hadn't learned.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

My mistake, I responded to a post from Garry, even though he and his buddy Sui were aparently banned! Oh well...

[lkfmdc]

Dave's wasn't knocking Green Cloud for teaching different things at his school, he was simply pointing out things that he said he was teaching that he hadn't learned.

Of course the above is true, but it doesn't even matter. Heck, a few posts earlier they also were carrying on about how we all stuck together BEHIND green cloud :rolleyes: Context and comprehension aren't their strong points...

[Chief Fox]

Chicken wings are sounding better and better right now.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41895000/jpg/_41895792_hootergirl1.jpg

[lkfmdc]

My mistake, I responded to a post from Garry, even though he and his buddy Sui were aparently banned! Oh well...

It's ok Mike, we know it's hard to keep up with all this stuff, we're old and all ;)

oh, and LMFAO :D

[lkfmdc]

Chicken wings are sounding better and better right now.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41895000/jpg/_41895792_hootergirl1.jpg

I promised you chicken wings, but first..... nah, I'll just buy you some chicken wings when I have a chance :p

Is there any way to get this thread back on track?

[SifuAbel]

(the following post is not intended to insult the mentally retarded)

Have you ever seen a mentally retarded kid just standing there and laughing out loud? In his mind he is thinking of something really funny, but his complete inability to share his thoughts with others is really sad... some people point and say "look at that tard" but others can appreciate that it isn't their fault they are deficient in some way. Then there are those who simply are proud of how ignorant and uneducated they are, and still think they are funny :rolleyes:


You mean like knifefighter? :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Gasp, who would have thunk it, but even I am a little tired of Abel and KF snipping at eachother on each and every thread .....

You guys have three options

1. Let it go

2. fight

3. get married (in which case you can fight a lot) :p

[SifuAbel]

3. get married (in which case you can fight a lot) :p


thats all I need, another "little woman". :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Baat Da Bing!

he'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your waitress

[FatherDog]

2. fight

Allegedly they're going to now; I give it about the same odds of happening as I did the ST00/Abel fight.

[SifuAbel]

That might still happen soon too.

Though, I think he's in jail.

[Blacktiger]

Man there should be a Kung Fu Forum/Mag - full contact tournament.

Like Master Han's comp in Enter The Dragon.

All this chest beating is rather funny :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Holy Crap!!

This discussion is still going on. I would like to invite all on this forum to my private island for full contact death matches. In order to compete, I must be paid $100,000 dollars in US currency, be given a virgin sacrifice, and be promised that the only fighting techniques that will be used are eye pokes and testicle molesting grabs. Those with balls enough to lose them, please sign up.

[lkfmdc]

in unrelated news

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43791

I am apparently African American and never knew it? :confused:

[MasterKiller]

in unrelated news

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43791

I am apparently African American and never knew it? :confused:


Lama Pai representing West-Sayiiiiid! (http://members.visi.net/~mtoscano/crap/pcs/new2/sagangsta25ot.jpg)

[lkfmdc]

Lama Pai representing West-Sayiiiiid! (http://members.visi.net/~mtoscano/crap/pcs/new2/sagangsta25ot.jpg)

come on, we all know that's Gary (fiercest tiger) right before he bakes a meat pie....

[lkfmdc]

oh my G'd, he looked at my icon and thought that was me :eek:

[Flying-Monkey]

BINGO! That would be correct, but the saber rattling is sort of the same thing don't you think?

Personally, I think you're taking yourself way too seriously... do you somehow think Chief Fox and I are actually setting up sledge hammers at 2 am? :cool:

Personally, I think you are not taking me seriously. It could cause problems.

[unkokusai]

Personally, I think you are not taking me seriously. It could cause problems.



LOL!.............................................. ..

[Flying-Monkey]

LOL!.............................................. ..

With a name like that, no one takes you seriously.

[lkfmdc]

Personally, I think you are not taking me seriously. It could cause problems.

dude, that's pathetic. You're smart enough to realize that if you flat out and challenge me, from JAPAN, you'll look like a keyboard warrior. But you still want to "act tough" so you're dropping these vague threats.

If you're trying to make me afraid of you, you'll fail miserably. I know you have no idea who I am, but it's a f-in joke if you do know me. I run a fighting gym, I teach fighting, work out with fighters and I'm also one of the few people on here who has stepped up and fought numerous times.

What problems are you gonna cause me? You gonna show up at my school some day, when you're not in Japan? eeek I'm scared :eek:

NOT

You don't have to agree with me, but cut the crap.

[unkokusai]

With a name like that, no one takes you seriously.

Yeah, sorry I couldn't come up with something dignified like.........Flying Monkey!:rolleyes:

[The Xia]

Sorry, to me Shuai Jiao people are GRAPPLERS... much more in common with MMA people that with the run of the mill TCMA crowd

For ONE Wong Ching there has to be 5000 TCMA teachers who haven't the foggiest on what fighting is about

I found Adam Hus skilled at sword, knowledgable about history, had excellent theory and application knowledge, but I never found him to be much of a fighter. His student Janet who fought originally trained with Lai Hung. Not to start an argument, but I felt he fighting was already pretty established by the time she changed schools
It doesn't matter if individuals that can't fight their way out of a paper bag represent the majority of those that claim Kung Fu as their practice. It doesn't matter because that isn't real Kung Fu. Real Kung Fu is tailored to combat. You don't see people judging the combat effectiveness of kickboxing based on the local gym's cardio-kickbox class do you?

[Flying-Monkey]

dude, that's pathetic. You're smart enough to realize that if you flat out and challenge me, from JAPAN, you'll look like a keyboard warrior. But you still want to "act tough" so you're dropping these vague threats.

If you're trying to make me afraid of you, you'll fail miserably. I know you have no idea who I am, but it's a f-in joke if you do know me. I run a fighting gym, I teach fighting, work out with fighters and I'm also one of the few people on here who has stepped up and fought numerous times.

What problems are you gonna cause me? You gonna show up at my school some day, when you're not in Japan? eeek I'm scared :eek:

NOT

You don't have to agree with me, but cut the crap.

Dude, you are corny. Everyone knows it. You can't fight so you train others. You sucked at kung fu so you blamed kung fu. You sucked at sanda so you added other arts.

You train good fighters? That's good. That does not tell me anything about your fighting skill. My sifu and sigung train good fighters too, which is me. If I did show up at your school who would I fight you or your students?

Please stop talking big and bad. You may be a good teacher, but the only video of you on line is of you getting dropped. There was two videos on youtube, but the second one was taking down. It was funny as hell.

I am not trying to be tough. I was going send that message as a PM. I thought that you were old enough and cool enough to understand what I mean. I guess I was wrong. What I mean by problems is some sifu (me) moving in to your area who who doesn't like you or wants to fight you. It also is a problem because with all of the **** you talk, it would be embarrassing if you lost. I have nothing to lose if we fight and I lose.

You are an opportunist. If you really had beefs or you wanted to set up a fight, you would use PM.

[unkokusai]

What I mean by problems is some sifu (me) moving in to your area who who doesn't like you or wants to fight you.




............................:rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

What I mean by problems is some sifu (me) moving in to your area who who doesn't like you or wants to fight you.

Whooo-hoooo! I go to the Middle East for two weeks, come back, and there's a 1-man pee-pee stomping contest going on!

Glad to see this place hasn't changed!!!

[lkfmdc]

Dude, you are corny.



This from a guy who calls himself the top monkey boxer :rolleyes:




You can't fight so you train others. You sucked at kung fu so you blamed kung fu. You sucked at sanda so you added other arts.


Dear lord, are you getting your info from Green Cloud :rolleyes:

I can't fight? Read the CTS thread where OTHERS talk about some of the fights I was in. You're a newbie but you can look up the Mao Shan challenge. And, of course, there's the fact that I still train successful fighters. But you're the expert

I suck at kung fu? Well, NACMAF had me 3rd in the NATION two years in a row, but I guess I suck cause I wasn't a forms person :rolleyes:

Unlike some people, I don't hide under the sheets chanting "kung fu is perfect" so I crossed train. That makes me a better fighter, not to mention makes my life more interesting and challenging




You train good fighters? That's good. That does not tell me anything about your fighting skill.



Yeah, right, I've been training fightes for 12 years but I have no idea what I"m doing... yeah, my forms will give you a better indication of my skill as a fighter :rolleyes:



If I did show up at your school who would I fight you or your students?


Is that another non-challenge? :rolleyes:

You could also refer to the Mao Shan threads for an answer...




Please stop talking big and bad.



I'm not the one challenging anyone, or throwing out crypto challenges from Japan




What I mean by problems is some sifu (me) moving in to your area who who doesn't like you or wants to fight you. It also is a problem because with all of the **** you talk, it would be embarrassing if you lost. I have nothing to lose if we fight and I lose.



I've been teaching in a public school for YEARS. And I've had my fair share of challenges. I've also accepted quite a few just to see the person who issued them back down..... I suggest you re-visit the Green Cloud debacle..

You see, I don't talk Sh-t, I call people who do. Sadly, kung fu glasses often make people not realize that basic fact

Oh, nice work, throwing in another crypto threat :rolleyes:




You are an opportunist. If you really had beefs or you wanted to set up a fight, you would use PM.



Is English not your first language? I am not the one challenging anyone. I am expressing my very experienced views on a variety of subjects. My views, backed by experience, contradict a lot of the BS deeply held by a lot of people, but that isn't my problem

The only people who want to "fight" and they seldom really do, are people who can't handle the DISCUSSION.... again, refer back to Green Cloud, whose other 9 black belts we still haven't been able to verify

[lkfmdc]

Interestingly enough, Fying Monkey and I traded some PM's over night (I don't sleep LOL)... He's an ok guy who strongly believes in what he does. And like others in the past, he seemed to misunderstand me. I'm not a blind hater, I'm not a hater at all... I would like to see more fighting in CMA.. He seems to agree. So for now we are cool

Good luck flying monkey....