Wingchun, Sensitivity, Hand Speed

[Shadow_warrior8]

I have been training in wingchun for a few years now, and I find whenever I meet someone with great hand speed, the sensitivity I have in chi sao, doesnt really work. Well at least for me.
I find when I pivot to receive, my body moves slower than the attacking hand, or when I move my hand to redirect the force, its just not fast enough.
My malaysian sifu says, when your hand cannot save you, use your body to save.
Is sensitivity really enough? My HK sifu says, wingchun is about sensitivity and we dont really train hand speed, rather relaxation and sensitivity.
If you hands move slower to deflect or redirect, what good is sensitivity? We cant block or redirect the hand in time. Or if he doesnt play the chi sao game, he strikes without engaging, what good is sensitivity then?
Sorry not knocking chi sao or sensitivity, just trying to get some alternative views.

Here is a clip of great hand speed. http://www.tommycarruthers.com/video.htm
Looking forward to some views here.

[Edmund]

If you hands move slower to deflect or redirect, what good is sensitivity? We cant block or redirect the hand in time.


Well if your hand is not fast enough then you aren't really that sensitive.



Or if he doesnt play the chi sao game, he strikes without engaging, what good is sensitivity then?

No good at all obviously. It's applied when you're in contact. You can't really use it when you aren't in contact.

[Hendrik]

I have been training in wingchun for a few years now, and I find whenever I meet someone with great hand speed, the sensitivity I have in chi sao, doesnt really work. Well at least for me. ------

Sensitivity in chi sao has two types. the pre-condition where comes from body/mind repetation programing and the Non-condition where comes from cultivate using silence to lead action. the programing type will work only if the programing cover the condition. if the other's hand speed or power is beyond the pre-conditioning. then, it would not work.
the non-condition which is based on Dao Mimic nature will always find it's way and work but this is a difficult path to cultivate. and this path is in general lost.



I find when I pivot to receive, my body moves slower than the attacking hand, or when I move my hand to redirect the force, its just not fast enough. -----

When you use your mind to direct after contact you are too slow already. redirect force vectors or Hua Jing happen at the instant of contact without moving physical; and not after the instant of contact.




My malaysian sifu says, when your hand cannot save you, use your body to save.
Is sensitivity really enough? -------

That is not true. body and hand is one. there is no two but one piece. until one could orbiting one will not enter the state of knoiwng what is going on about body and hand....and flow...




My HK sifu says, wingchun is about sensitivity and we dont really train hand speed, rather relaxation and sensitivity. ----


that is not true. Sensitivity or listerning to Jing without having capability of Hua Jin or re-orient the force vector and fa Jing or issuing force vector, Sensitivity is useless. eventhough most claim to train sensitivity, in reality and in general they are training a few particular tricks for thier lineages and fast hand speed.




If you hands move slower to deflect or redirect, what good is sensitivity? ------

deflext or redirect is not the word. The word is better as re-orientation of force vector. the re-orientation is about how to deal with force vector at contact. it is distance dependent of faster or slower but at the instant of contact. as it was said, fast has fast response, slow has slow response. it is on how to response not how to be always faster.



sensitivity is needed because sensitivity is awareness. with awareness one can aware or sense the force vector at contact and adaptively re-orientation the force vector spontaneously without thinking.

Sensitivity using thinking is not the sensitivity or awareness refer to in the kuen kuit -- using silence leading action. silence is sensitivity is awareness.

But, as I have heard, not too many people know about this is possible and even less has attain this level in this past 50 years.




We cant block or redirect the hand in time. Or if he doesnt play the chi sao game, he strikes without engaging, what good is sensitivity then?
Sorry not knocking chi sao or sensitivity, just trying to get some alternative views.-----


sensitivity without Ken Geng or SHort JIng and Hua Jing or re-orientation of force vector capability; the one who has fast hand always win, one who knows more tricks always win. that is because until one knows sensitivity, ken geng, and hua jing, one's reaction is limited by speed.

We all just got to be honest with ourself about reality. never thinking if we learn some tricks about chi sau then we has already mastered the art. and sadly, some even after decades of training cant orbit. and due to that their art degrade with aging propotion to the slowing down of one's body condition.


Just some thoughts. I could be wrong.

[Lindley]

Your "Sifus" offer excellent advice, however their meanings are far deeper than they appear.

One suggestion against the fast hands would be to "be like water" and learn to use more forward energy. This way, when the hands of your opponent come off the line, yours go in. I say this because Chi Sao has rules and unless opponent is moving your hands off the line and you don't have center, then they must be going around you. Your job is not to wait for your opponent. Accept that you might get hit and that you don't have to block everything. I don't see anywhere in your post where you are attacking the opponent.

The Chi Sao exercise also trains other attributes that work in conjunction with sensitivity - balance, coordination, timing and relaxation. Sensitivity is just one component. Someone with good timing can look like they have fast hands. I believe this is what your Sifu is saying. One cannot just rely on one thing but must have a balance of them.

The body and hand as one are an ideal, but in reality they can be in different directions where they separate. This meaning, from your Sifu, illustrates the truth that if something gets past your hands, you still have your body. This iwould seem almost relative to the Bil Je form - if you can't win with Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu, then you have Bil Je as backup.

Chi Sao is a training exercise, an arena for you to develop skill. You should slow down your training with these "fast hands" partners and discuss. Don't accept them as just being faster than you, but take the time to see how they are penetrating you. I would assume you have at least one "friend" amongst them who would share with you.

Good Luck with your Kung Fu...

[Lindley]

I looked at your videos you reference. Notice how fast the instructor looks because in none of the videos the opponent is moving toward him or offering anything back of substance. I always say that you should look at the "other guy" as demos tend to accentuate the "star". He may really be "fast", but present a clip of him demonstrating his speed against someone fighting back.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am going out on a limb here, and it is just my own opinion and probably not representative of anyone else. In my training, I was told that Chi Sau was indeed nothing more than a training exercise. Mostly a childs game played to aid in directing Chi and flow. Thus the words Chi Sau. Not everyone believes in Chi, but that is for another discussion. It is a game played between 2 Wing Chun people that helps you in focusing your energies and your flow. Flow meaning like in fluid motion. Constant movement without stops and starts. This is far better than what is termed as speed. You must watch your own techniques as you perform them. Looking directly at your target. Water does not move with great speed when it is spilled. It moves at a pace that is never slowing until it reaches it's new level. It is hard to catch because of this fluid motion. That is why people say move like water. Chi Sau is not a fighting technique, and in most cases when you have to depend upon your fighting skills, it will not be against another Wing Chun trained person. Chi Sau goes out the window. There are what? 3 blocks practiced in Chi sau. And mayby 4 or 5 strikes that can be practiced? That is all you are doing. You are practicing Chi and flow in the application of these blocks and punches. In a fight this Chi Sau is not applicable. And if you are fighting with another Chunner, it is still not applicable. The Chi and flow that is derived from it will be though.
I think what is happening with your Chi Sau play is that you are simply not aggressive enough. I think this might be due to you being intimidated by the prowess of the more experienced individuals. Be aggressive, but not brash. Use more contact, and don't worry about sensitivity. It will find you. And remember, this exercise is not supposed to be done from a fixed stance as such. Pivot and use body motion. This is where your Chi comes from as well as your power and flow.

[Vajramusti]

I am going out on a limb here, and it is just my own opinion and probably not representative of anyone else. Mostly a childs game played to aid in directing Chi and flow. Thus the words Chi Sau. Not everyone believes in Chi, but that is for another discussion. There are what? 3 blocks practiced in Chi sau. And mayby 4 or 5 strikes that can be practiced?
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((Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Most people have one. Doesnt necessarily show understanding of the subject of chi sao. The chi in chi sao is a different concept than chi in other subjects. 3 blocks and 4 strikes?---you have a way to go to understand chi sao.I wouldnt normally comment but you are trivializing an important part of wing chun development. But then you are not alone. Bye bye))

[Jeff Bussey]

I agree with Joy.
There's a lot going on in chi sau, and I personally think it does relate to fighting in a big way. You may not train it as a fight in class but what you get from it, is essentially all of your wing chun.
Again that's my take on it, but hey my chi sau sucks so what do I know.

J

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sure it relates to fighting. And sure...there's more than 3 or 4 moves involved. Much more. But the name should be a giveaway - and in this sense LCP does have a point, albeit an overgeneralized and oversimplified one.

Using chi sao as a drill to get one's energy (chi) flowing (especially forward energy) - is oftentimes a forgotten aspect of chi sao. But it's more than just forward energy..it's about the flow-like-water feeling (instead of choppiness) which constantly moves in, out, sideways, and around. (And by "out" - I mean sometimes you need to go backwards as well)...While staying balanced and always adjusting one's proper DISTANCE from the opponent. When to penetrate - and when to make more space.

A great drill.

Unfortunately, however...many people over-emphasize it - and don't do enough in other areas of wing chun training.

[Liddel]

Chi Sao is also a platform to introduce and develope ideas that can and should be used in all areas of striking....

If im trading with a partner and his hand speed is very fast i still have the ability to feel his force etc....

My lead hand may Pak his jabs - although with those who retract punches fast the Pak is only covering a very small space creating an angle so that if the punch followed through it would be on a path traveling past my body.

This is Chi Sao too :rolleyes: its a touch is it not ?
when the hand disappears you can feel it leave meaning a space is opening and also telling you perhaps the other hand is comming.....:rolleyes:

I dont think of chi sao as this pre determined DRILL - that is a beginners discription - Chi sao to me is anytime you get contact with the opponents bridge, even if when his punch is touching your forearm covering your head as he punches you ???

Think outside the box

[stricker]

my answer to the original question would be:

use position to beat speed.

i remember being sooo frustrated doing dan chi with my wing chun teacher. if i had a tan sao and he had fook i could try and hit him as fast as i like but could never get through. if we were the other way round no matter how quick i tried he could always hit me. same with kwan sao drill, etc etc

it seemed like magic at the time :)

[anerlich]

As Edmund said, the sensivitity etc which chi sao is supposed to develop is useless in a situation where the opponent is not in contact. Thus there is more to WC than chi sao.

The "be like water" analogy is a good one up to a point. Too many equate it with being soft, and not using power ... if people think water doesn't hit hard or create pressure they ought to watch some movies of tow surfers at Jaws or Teahupoo ... or read up on James Cameron's crew's experiences filming under 4000 metres of water for "Titanic".

Water can and should have lots of power, seeking out the slightest gap and rushing forward through any open space.

That said, if the guy is faster than you but as good as you in other attributes, my money's on him.

[wingchunguy2]

hey Shadow_warrior8,

there is a few more things you need to improve on before blaming sensitivity and its usefulness - sensitivity is everything, look at tai chi! (good tai chi that is)

you need to relax more, but relax 'forward', just like a leaning from your elbows onto the opponent. with this 'elbow' leaning (not pushing) you need to project your force past your opponent (this is the water flowing as suggested by the other's advices),
but make sure your angles are correct otherwise your structure is gone and it will no longer work

as you relax more and have all this then your arms will appear heavy to your opponent, then their hand speeds will be useless against your overwhelming force, and you need to think offensively, this is just basic stuff

quick hands means nothing if you stick properly and project

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw...check out the latest issue of INSIDE KUNG FU magazine. William Cheung is on the front cover with Keith Mazza. Big article inside about chi sao - including lots of photos of William Cheung with Phil Redmond's student, Rahsun Herkul.

[Mr Punch]

Lee Chiang Po: you're the 56 year-old who was introduced to wing chun by a boxer rebellion guy over 50 years ago? And you think the 'chi' in 'chi sao' is the same as the 'chi' in 'chi kung'? Dang, those boxer rebellion guys maybe got their arses kicked but they sure knew how to bull**** very young impressionable foreigners.

There are many more laughable points in your post but I'm getting stupider reading it by the second. The point about flow is good however.

This is the stick. It has two ends. The one you are holding firmly is not, actually, the right one.

OP, I'll be back to you at some other time, time permitting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

In all fairness to LCP, Mr. Punch...I'm the guy who said he's 56 years old - in response to LCP's remark about how he feels as though he's an old man talking to teenagers.

He hasn't said how old he is. But if you read his first post carefully on the other thread - he says that the Boxer rebellion guy he learned from was already 74 years old when he first started learning from him.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Thanks guys, I really learn from some of the posts.
Some things I had in mind.
1. I dont blame sensitivity. Er, but my post is not about not being sensitive per se, its about being able to react when your opponent has fast hands and you cant even contact. Lets presume this, how many times have you chi sao and had a strike come through out of no where? Loose hands fly forward, very fast hands fly even faster.
2. I really dont think chi sao- is Qi sao, chi in this instance is sticking, cantonese word. But yes, flowing forward energy, very important.
3. I do know chi sao is about relaxing and heaviness. Done plenty of that. :) Wouldnt want to disgrace my sifus by not remembering the first lessons years back.
4. 3 or 4 moves? Hmmmm think there are more moves than that, Sifu says that all of SLT,CK,BJ,WDcan be used in chi sao. I have found that to be so. But, I have heard Sigung Yip Chun says, if its not pak its larp, at least in his chi sao DVDs.
5. I was under the impression chi is always flowing? Maybe its the Yi Nian, intention I have got to practice.
6. To feel that hand you have to meet that hand. To meet that hand you have to move your hand fast enough, that's just timing right? For two objects to meet on the same path, they have to meet yeah? If one is faster than the other, then sensitivity doesnt really matter. You just dont meet, you get struck.
7. Body moves slower than hands, logically a bigger mass takes a longer time, so if body moves and hands are faster, you get struck. No?
Isnt there instances where sensitivity really doesnt play a part? If you get struck then its the end of that idea, well unless you are doing systema, then you would relax to absorb the blow, body sensitivity.
If we seek contact when there is none, am I not chasing hands? Loose hand flies forward yeah? Looser hands fly faster.
Not knocking sensitivity, but since we do so much chi sao, and its so important in my HK lineage and we spend so much time doing it, I really want to see it cover most of my practical needs. Otherwise, better learn boxing for self defense. At least, I train power, speed, stamina and sparring. Or train wingchun that way.(Hmmmmm some wingchun lineages actually dont chi sao)
Hendrik's level is one of void level already. Hok(learn), lien(practice), Fa(state of internalisation, void). I am nowhere close to Fa state yet. Deep stuff to think about. I have learnt much from all the posts. Still learning from everyone,
What do I know about wingchun? My non- MA wife still manages to hit the big kungfu man with years of martial arts experience, because she strikes without telegraphing, natural motion and no tension. **** she's fast, Arghhhhh......

[Edmund]

Thanks guys, I really learn from some of the posts.
Some things I had in mind.
1. I dont blame sensitivity. Er, but my post is not about not being sensitive per se, its about being able to react when your opponent has fast hands and you cant even contact. Lets presume this, how many times have you chi sao and had a strike come through out of no where? Loose hands fly forward, very fast hands fly even faster.
..
6. To feel that hand you have to meet that hand. To meet that hand you have to move your hand fast enough, that's just timing right? For two objects to meet on the same path, they have to meet yeah? If one is faster than the other, then sensitivity doesnt really matter. You just dont meet, you get struck.
..
Isnt there instances where sensitivity really doesnt play a part? If you get struck then its the end of that idea, well unless you are doing systema, then you would relax to absorb the blow, body sensitivity.


Right. If you aren't in contact it's not related to sensitivity.




If we seek contact when there is none, am I not chasing hands? Loose hand flies forward yeah? Looser hands fly faster.


Depends on what you mean by seek contact.
You want to strike forward to force the opponent to defend. If he doesn't, he gets hit. If he does, you now have some contact.


Not knocking sensitivity, but since we do so much chi sao, and its so important in my HK lineage and we spend so much time doing it, I really want to see it cover most of my practical needs. Otherwise, better learn boxing for self defense.

But how can chi sao cover most of your practical needs? You've just stated what's pretty obvious. It only applies when you are in contact.

In other instances, you'll still need to use your eyes, speed and reflexes. Your stance and guard etc. have to be ready to react to protect yourself in time.

Boxing is a bit the opposite. You're limited in the type of holds you can take while wearing boxing gloves.


What do I know about wingchun? My non- MA wife still manages to hit the big kungfu man with years of martial arts experience, because she strikes without telegraphing, natural motion and no tension. **** she's fast, Arghhhhh......

Right. She's fast but she's not doing the defending. It's a lot harder to react especially with no contact.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Mr. Punch, I can see by your words in most of your posts that you are not well versed in Wing Chun. There is no mystery about it. The forms hold no secrets. and chi sau is exactly what it refers. Nothing more or less. It will aid in developing chi and flow. Fluid motion. Or water as some refer. I do not know why it is so difficult to believe. The forms are nothing more than the weapons of Wing Chun linked together so that you might practice and train them for Chi and flow. There are no fight forms like in other styles of Kung Fu. If you think chi sau helps you, maybe it will. But There is a limit to what it will do for you. If you are a rank beginner it will be a lot of help to you. Otherwise it is nothing more than a silly game of who can do it better. You can not apply the Chi Sau in a combat situation. It will aid you in developing your chi and flow to a limit, but it will not help you otherwise. I apply my weapons as the situation dictates, and chi sau will not save you. How many fights have you seen where the opponents faced off and took the Chi Sau positions? Get real as young people say.

[Jeff Bussey]

LCP,
You don't think chi sau will help you in a real situation?
Your looking at chi sau too literally. Your right, nobody is going to start a fight with their hands in luk sau but that's not the point. We use it as a starting place so we have contact. It helps build our reflexes once there is contact.
When you chi sau, have you never lost contact with your partner? How did you recover?
Have you ever done chi sau at a closer range, or a further one?

I'm not saying that it's all that's needed but it is definitely applicable.
I was in a pub once fooling around with some friends and I guess the guy beside us didn't like it and he took a swing at me. I grabbed his arm and punched him in the face. Nothing special. I didn't have contact, I was lucky that I saw him, but I did and I reacted. That's what I got from chi sau.

I'm not trying to come off as a stud cause I'm not, but that's how my chi sau translated.

J

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch, I can see by your words in most of your posts that you are not well versed in Wing Chun. Ha ha ha!

Very droll... but unless you point out the error of my ways it's a rather empty accusation. So go on, go back to some threads which you think demonstrate this and show us!

As for your following comments on chi sao, fair enough: I don't remember defending its practical use in a fight - you're just going off on a rant on your preconceived ideas of what you think I think. Keep going!

However, I'll see what your response to Jeff Bussey's post is to see if you're mature enough to actually discuss the applications of chi sao in a fight, or if you're just going to keep second-guessing instead of reading what people actually write.

[Todai]

My sifu always teaches that hand speed is an illusion. Granted there are those who have quicker reflexes, but in VT, the illusion is created by proper stance and hand technique. Historically, ving tsun was refered to as "Invisible Hands" but this is mainly due to the lack of knowledge of centerline theory at that time. If you are occupying the center and your stance is correct an opponent's hand speed should not matter. wingchunguy2 touched upon a related point in saying that the angle of your bridge and hand structure play an important role, which translates simply to proper hand techniques.

I have to disagree with those who say sensitivity stops once contact is lost. Jeff Bussey mentioned above about losing contact during chi sao and chi sao'ing at greater distances. This is something that we always practice in my family. Those who have progressed far enough in chi sao move into chi sao'ing with only the hands as bridges, and then prgress to the tips of the fingers, and finally to a more sparring-like situation of no initial contact. We often practice these forms of chi sao in a one-technique setting, where it is touch, go, and over within only a few seconds. If two students are evenly matched and agree to, they may initiate normal chi sao if no strikes are landed in the initial moves.

Outside of the practice itself, we all have many forms of non-touch based sensitivity. They fall under various forms of animal communication including verbal and non verbal. Communicating by talking is the most common and obvious form which allows us to read our opponent's intentions and mood. And of course there is non-verbal comunication commonly referred to as body language. Seeing the opponent's stance, hand position, and even eye activity is a huge factor in reading their intentions. I do agree that chi sao is a drill, an excercise, but you can take said excercise and stretch it to apply further than its basic use.

[anerlich]

I have to disagree with those who say sensitivity stops once contact is lost.

We were talking about touch sensitivity, which by definition requires contact.

I would agree there is also sensitivity to the loss of contact, and other forms of sensitivity. But in the latter case, chi sao is not as useful, if useful at all, as are other drills.

[Todai]

We were talking about touch sensitivity, which by definition requires contact.

I think you missed the point. My disagreement was with those who state that bridge contact is the end all of sensitivity training. Haven't you or your chi sao partner ever pushed off without actually scoring? That loss of contact does not mean that chi sao is over. It means that the two students need to find their bridges again from a disconnected situation.

[Edmund]

My disagreement was with those who state that bridge contact is the end all of sensitivity training.

I think you misread what was stated.

If you aren't in contact, you can't use your contact sensitivity, can you?

[anerlich]

I think you missed the point. My disagreement was with those who state that bridge contact is the end all of sensitivity training.

I don't think I missed any point. I went on to say what you just did, except that IMO chi sao is not the "end all" of sensitivity training either. If you want to quibble about definitions, I have better ways to waste my time.


Haven't you or your chi sao partner ever pushed off without actually scoring? That loss of contact does not mean that chi sao is over. It means that the two students need to find their bridges again from a disconnected situation.

Fairly obvious, I would have thought.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Grandmaster Yip encouraged Master Chow to blend in more sparring and defending techniques in the Chi Sao exercise saying that Lut Sao Kin Kung Fu¡¨ (literally : the real kung fu is seen in free sparring). This means that the Wing Chun practitioner can check his own standard and progress in his training through his ability in free sparring practice

Hmmmm...seems like Grandmaster Yip placed alot of emphasis on sparring, hence we have fighters from that time like Masters Hawkins, William, Wong Shun leung, Chow Tze Chuen, Bruce Lee etc....
Now some lineages place emphasis on chi sao, and chi sao, as my sifu always tells me, is not fighting, its a way to learn sensitivity.
Wonder if the WSL lineage emphasis more on fighting or chi sao.
Hey does anyone know if this Lut Sao, means loose hands? I speak cantonese and that is how I would read it. Lut Sao Jik Chung.
Chi sao, known in wingchun requires contact. Then again, Hendrik made some profound points. But at my level, Sensitivity may come in many forms, but we are talking about chi sao.

I dont see how speed is an illusion. Fast punch or kick hit face, hands couldnt deflect it, that cant be illusional. Ouch.....
Hmmm....I didnt know about this. Which lineage called wingchun invisible hands and had a lack of centreline theory?

If you are occupying the center and your stance is correct an opponent's hand speed should not matter. wingchunguy2 touched upon a related point in saying that the angle of your bridge and hand structure play an important role, which translates simply to proper hand techniques.
I think we all train to occupy the centreline and have the correct structure and the right hand technique. We are still talking about wingchun right? Does that mean you will not get hit by a faster strike? Hmmmmm...still need some discussion.

[Andrew Williams]

QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;717345]I have been training in wingchun for a few years now, and I find whenever I meet someone with great hand speed, the sensitivity I have in chi sao, doesnt really work. Well at least for me.
---are you talking about being in contact here? At beginner level chi sao should be more about you and where you are at, than about training partners and what they can do. Your sifu should be concentrating on your proprioception and the automaticity of wing chun movement.


I find when I pivot to receive, my body moves slower than the attacking hand, or when I move my hand to redirect the force, its just not fast enough.
---are you doing chi sao here? Because if you are then sensitivity can play a part. There are a few of levels of sensitivity for example tactile, structural, visual etc.


My malaysian sifu says, when your hand cannot save you, use your body to save.
Is sensitivity really enough?
---no, it is part of a multilateral base.

If you hands move slower to deflect or redirect, what good is sensitivity?
---Not sure what you’re after here, your question is somewhat rhetorical. It is no good to you, if they are fast and can hit hard, which is not always the case, you will be hurt and sensitivity is no good, assuming you are talking tactile sensitivity, other sensitivities would be most helpful but not all can be trained with chi sao.


We cant block or redirect the hand in time. Or if he doesnt play the chi sao game, he strikes without engaging, what good is sensitivity then?
---as above

[russellsherry]

hi all, when , in chi sua postion what i would , try and do is, if i get someone with, a fast pak sua, try using the forward , jamming bong sua with footwork this maybe what you sifu said use the body as well , also the moment , you feel, forward pressure , not just being senative . as you will learn correct feeling, is important. trainn slow poon sau then train slow poon sau with footwork, footwork forward pressure correct hand postion don"t worry about his speed worry about how your defence postion is peace russellsherry