Question for serious Taijiquan practioners

[Daredevil]

This is for all the folks who train Taijiquan for combat effectiveness and not merely for health benefits. I'd especially like to hear from people who're confident in their combat ability, and have tested it, and not just the wannabees.

A few questions, since I'm going to dwell into the art in a few weeks. I'm hoping sincerely it matches my expectations.

What're the characteristics I should watch for in the class and the teacher, that might reassure me that they're genuine in their fighting ability?

What type of drills should I expect? What about approaches to training?

Can any of you detail your own growth in the art, from the beginning to a level of actual combat skill?

Hard questions perhaps, but I'd like to hear your answers. Thanks.

[Nexus]

First off, great question. Almost every single one of us in the internal arts has asked similar questions, especially because it is so often subjective.

I will not go into too much detail with your questions, but I will answer a few of them with some brief things to pay attention to:

"What're the characteristics I should watch for in the class and the teacher, that might reassure me that they're genuine in their fighting ability?"

- What do the more advanced students have to say? Does the teacher emphasizes the fighting aspects and health aspects equally? Are you taught any martial aspects early on in the beginner classes such as how to do a taiji punch?

Some things to watch for in the teacher: Do they sink into their moves, for instance when stepping does it appear the body sinks into each move so it can be executed slowly and smoothly?

Do they appear completely relaxed? If so, this would be a good starting sign.

Can they perform anything they say they can? If they say they can do something, call them on it, make them show you. If they don't then they are hiding it for some reason. Ask them what reason.

But my favorite way to tell if a taijiquan instructor knows how to fight is to spontaneously attack them. It gets you thrown down usually if you do it, and a little bruised, but its usually a great way to find out. You have to work up some nerve to do this one, but if your teacher is experienced, they probably wont hurt you. :-)

What type of drills should I expect? What about approaches to training?

You should expect basic qi gong (hugging the tree, wuji, maybe a few others), and the first parts of the form they decide to show you. Also a good teacher will emphasize how the entire body should be used for each move you make, like how the waist must turn while punching etc. They probably won't do much talking about "qi" and mostly refer to the breath. If they talk endlessly about qi, you might ask them why they talk about it so much or tell them its confusing you.


Can any of you detail your own growth in the art, from the beginning to a level of actual combat skill?

I think this will 100% vary from one person to the next. I know people who have spent 2 years learning the 24-movement form and people who picked it up in 5 months and then went on to the YCF (Yang Cheng-Fu) old style. Some people take 6 years to learn that, some people take 1-2 years. It depends on your perserverance, will power, willingness to learn, how often you practice, discipline etc.

You probably won't be able to fight effectively using taijiquan in the first two years, but I would say usually in 3-5 years you should be able to express some martial abilities. In about 10 years you should definetely be able to fight well. This is of course dependant on if you train properly and how often your train.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[MaFuYee]

* please note that the following is only my OPINION, and you are free to disagree. however, please don't argue with me, as i don't care to hear your whining. - it is my opinion, and i am entitled to it. - thank you.

daredevil,

unfortunately, chances are, you will not be able to find a teacher that can teach you tai chi as a MARTIAL art. - sorry, but that is the sad truth. - sure, there will be many that will claim to know and teach it, however, they are only fooling themselves. (and perhaps a large number of students.)

on the extremely minute chance that you find someone who actually knows what tai chi is about, these are some characteristics you may notice:

1. not only will he show how a posture is applied, he will then go on to show how it is countered. and, how to counter that counter, etc. etc. (assuming that he knows it, AND, is willing to teach it. - after all, it does you little good, if he knows it, but doesn't teach it.)

2. you will notice that none of the applications involve staying in front of the attacker. first he will move to the outside angle, (getting out of the way), and then he will cross the attackers centerline (taking him off balance) and then he will strike the attacker.

3. once the attacker is struck, things are usually broken, and the attacker is thrown to the ground, or ends up collapsed on the ground; not so much 'thrown away', as is shown in most tai chi apps, as this is only done as not to hurt the students. - you should also notice that he will be using a tremendous amount of circular (ala bagua) footwork. (if you don't know what i mean by circular footwork, take a look at some aikido video clips.)

4. you will notice that most applications involve hooking/reaping/sweeping the attackers legs, and that most times, you will be dislocating the attacker's elbow, and going through the side of the attacker's knee in such a fashion that would cause pemanant injuries, and often times, you are throwing the person such that he lands on this head, or the back of his neck. - also, a good number of times, his arms are tied up, so that he can't breakfall, or roll out of it.

... are you getting the idea?

here's a quickie test:

(no i do not reccomend attacking the teacher. - this is patently stupid. - do not attempt. - and, don't even ask to 'spar' with the teacher. - i assure you, you will just be making an arse of yourself.)

ask the teacher if he could demonstrate for you a few ways that 'brush knee, twist step' is used. - if he tells you to block a kick, and palm strike; thank him, and politely excuse yourself, never to return again. - if he tells you to deflect a punch, and palm strike, ... ask for other possibilities. (as that app, while technically correct, is VERY obvious, and VERY easy to counter.) - if he ever mentions blocking a kick, leave immediately.

the response you will be looking for, involves, wrapping and locking the attacker's arm, while palm striking to offbalance, and then using your forearm to strike the side of his neck, while 'steal stepping' (circular footwork) and wrapping his neck, and sweeping out his legs, through his knees, to throw him on his head, or back, as you choose.

* you can apply this sort of test for any posture in tai chi, but i chose this one, just because it is such an important move. (as you can tell, by the fact that it is repeated multiple times in the form.)

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
-- Albert Einstein

[EARTH DRAGON]

dear daredevil, be careful what you ask in this forum it might come true.LOL when looking for a master to teach you fighting applications it may be a life long look. As for the most part chinese teachers must see from you that you are worth the time to teach! It doesnt matter how much money you have, it matters if you will be worthy of such information. DO NOT do as nexus said and challenge the teacher! I do agree with Ma fu yee and NEVER attack the teacher with whom you are asking to teach you! this is perposterous and highly disrespectful. However asking him to demonstrate some movements after walking in off the street will not give you a true answer either. very Rarely will a master demonstrate his skill for the sole pleasure of you finding him knowledgable! it is you who must prove to him that you will be around in 10 years practicing what he shows you. This is the way of the chinese I have been lucky enough to be taught by two of them and that is how they think..........

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[GLW]

Exactly so...

To ask to watch a class is not being rude. If you are told you can't watch, I would say it is not a good place to be. There are NO secrets...only practice.

If you go in and challenge the instructor verbally to justify him/her self, this is rude and the teacher may take your money but will not teach you much. Why should they, in their mind, you entered as an obnoxious beggar and are therefore not worth notice. Most good teachers will just tell you they are not accepting students and invite you to leave.

If you attack the teacher you have chosen a MAJOR LOSE - LOSE path. If the teacher has something valuable to teach (you are a beginner after all and need basics), should they get hit, they will lose face. You may also find yourself in jail. Such a thing is actually assault.

Should they respond in kind and take you out, if you are lucky, you will not end up injured. If you do, your own fault.

Should you end up in one piece, the teacher will virtually never accept you as a student. You have shown a major amount of disrespect and to start a relationship on such a foundation is bad.

I had one teacher who had a visitor do just that...attack to see what would happen. The poor fool almost got a broken nose and fell on his butt. My teacher told me to leave the blood on the floor. It dried and we all avoided that spot. It was used, however, when a visitor asked a question such as can I try to hit you..."Yeah, but this was left by the last guy who did that"

For me, a person who asks that gets my stock reply..."You are really asking if I am good enough to be your teacher. The answer to that question may be yes or no. But the answer to my question of --- Do I want you as a student? --- has already been answered...not in your favor."

[Nexus]

I was joking around when I said to attack the teacher :-) But if I got you to actually consider doing it then that was my mistake. What I probably should have said was said above and that is to ask for application. Although attacking the teacher is a good way to get your butt whooped and kicked out of the class!

But most of the other stuff was pretty accurate IMO.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[bamboo_ leaf]

My answer would be to find a book on the tai chi principels first and see if the teacher looks like he/she is following the principels.

Trying to see how a tech is used, I really can’t agree with this. TC is a way to train the YI (mind) so that the chi can follow leading the body. This is one of the big differnces between TC and most other arts. The TC is the water that is in the glass, this is what you want.

A good TC teacher can with a touch cause you to lose your root, and fall off balance.
this might be hard to understand, all the tech. of TC are contained in the opening posture. So the type of from or the number of movements the form are really meaningless if they are not preformed within TC guidelines.

To really be able to follow these guide lines I have found to be quite hard even after many yrs of training. My teachers emphasized only 3.
1. relax
2. don’t use force
3. don’t lean

Not every one can reach the highest levels, even combative ability when specking about TC seems strange as the real ability to listen and use the opponents force is quite a skill to develop and use. If the teacher has it then attacking the teacher is a very bad idea. If the teachers skill is high you may find yours self lifted up and sailing though the air to land gently. If the skill is not so high, the ground is a hard place to learn weather you have a root or not.

Once while teaching a friend TC, another friend came up and tried to do attack me, he studied some type of karate. He ended up meeting the floor very quickly, nothing that I did he did it to himself.

I hope you find a good teacher, the use of TC comes with the ability to let the ego go and really learn to relax and trust the process. There is no set time to being able to use it.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Kumkuat]

In my opinion, you'll never find a person that will CORRECTLY teach taiji as a fighting art unless you go to chen villiage in Henan, China or unless you get lucky. most teachers claim they teach taiji as a fighting art but they only use local muscles to generate the movments in their "fighting applications" no matter how relaxed they look.

First, look for a teacher than can help you repattern your body to move internally. This is the most important step. Then the teacher can teach you the fighting strategies of taijiquan or whatever.

Also, in my opinion, these "fighting applications" from the postures are just ideas of what you can do during a fighting situation not actual techniques one should use.

Anyway, I'll try to answer you questions. Ma FuYee described them well, but let me try to add some stuff. Put the teacher in a couple of standing locks, see if he can neutralize that. Then tell him to neutralize that in a different way. The taiji teacher shouldn't use technique to counter the lock, he should do it naturally, without thinking-- usually with a counter lock or with your face on the floor. MaFuYee is correct, it's hard or impossible to breakfall a taiji throw since your body goes in a spiraling motion towards the ground with your arms being trapped and stuff. Also, in my experience, it seems like the shoulder would get ripped out a lot. Oh yeah, when a lock is applied to you it feels very heavy on the joint and it obviously hurts.

Lots of standing drills and (if it's chen) silk reeling. Then repetition of form and then push hands. Then sparring.

Right now, I have 0 taiji fighting ability, I know a lot of theories though, but I don't have anyone to practice drills with.

[bamboo_ leaf]

"In my opinion, you'll never find a person that will CORRECTLY teach taiji as a fighting art unless you go to chen villiage in Henan, China or unless you get lucky. most teachers claim they teach taiji as a fighting art but they only use local muscles to generate the movments in their "fighting applications" no matter how relaxed they look."

How do you know this? Have you been to the Chen villiage ? How many TC teachers have you met and studied from? I realize it’s your opinion. How do you qualify your opinion, what makes your opinion more or less valid then anything else? If your training from someone doses he/she Correctly teach TC?

“First, look for a teacher than can help you repattern your body to move internally. This is the most important step. Then the teacher can teach you the fighting strategies of taijiquan or whatever”

How can some one find a teacher here in the US if as you said they will never find a person that will correctly teach TC?

I guess they should save some money and go train in China.


Apparently in the US the mark of a knowledgeable person is the ability to make board statements with no substantial facts to support their statements.

You might as well say that “ I can’t do it, I don’t know any one in the US that can so it must be in China”

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Braden]

mreow! ;)

[Kumkuat]

Like you said, I was just stating my opinion. What makes you or anyone else qualify to state their opinions anyway on this message board anyway? I must have had struck a nerve with you or something. Anyway, I've met around 10 or 11 people who teaches taiji. Not very many people I know. I've also subscribed to mailing lists, read other message boards, suscribe to the Internal Martial Arts magazine, read the Tai Chi Magazine in the newsstands (sometimes I might even buy it), read lots and lots of stuff like books and web pages that deal with taiji (of course things do get redundant after a while). Some of those sorces are bogus, but I just take in the information that I think are useful to me. Maybe I'm believeing the wrong stuff maybe I'm not. I've also talked and practiced with other taiji people who are very serious about practicing and improving their art.

I also mentioned that one has to be lucky too since there might be some good teachers out there that don't advertise and are not trying to become famous and stuff. I didn't really say that the only place you have to go is China and I was being somewhat sarcastic because of my attempts to find a good permanent teacher in my area has failed. Maybe I'm expecting too much.

Actually, I do know a few serious people who are saving money so they can train in the Chen villiage and stuff. Anyway, sorry to have ****ed you off. You're lucky, I heard there are a few good people living in SF like ZXX, and a couple of those "big dogs" visit there for seminars and such.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Kumkuat,


You are your own best teacher, learn to listen and trust your self but remain open to others.

I wish you luck in your journey. Sorry if my post sounded hard it wasn’t my intention.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Daredevil]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I believe that the school I'll be checking out is pretty reputable in tai chi circles (I asked about it a while back on here as well). Wang Fengming (a student of Feng Zhiquan) is the teacher. My friend was interested in going there and I've decided to tag along as I've always been very interested in the internal arts, but also incredibly skeptical.

The reason I asked these questions was that in the past I switched schools (I've been studying more external styles previously) because I felt my first school wasn't offering me real deveploment in combat skill.

We did train techniques in pairs, on non-resisting students, and there's nothing wrong in doing that, it builds up technique, but it seemed (from looking at the older students) that it was the only thing the school offered besides forms.

In Wing Tsun (not trying to advertise here) I found the missing pieces of the puzzle. Lat sao (a centerline/punching drill), Chi sao (sticky hands) and sparring on the other end were the things that I really liked and felt would make the difference.

I definately want to check out the internal side of the equation and I hope I'll feel comfortable there in the sense of developing some actual skill as well.

Perhaps one reason I remain skeptical is that most of the students at the school don't look like the students of martial arts school. Now, judging on looks is not always wise, but that's the first thing you go by. Maybe most of the students are there for health reasons. I fear that this may have effected the teaching at the school, even if the teachers are genuine, ... if you understand my line of thinking.

Or maybe I just think too much, but switching into new MA schools isn't something I like doing too often.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Be careful when considering anything to which you have little or no experience in. A lot of responses to your intial question seem to portary relative degrees of experience, but clearly some of the longer responses are quite opinionated and contain suspect info. I would say ego is the main factor to look for. Other qualities would be sensitivity, insight, clear lineage is always important (but is no 100% guarantee that they can fight). I would say that a fairly good gauge would also be to talk to the senior and some of the lower students as their ability should reflect the quality of the schools discipline. Uphold a healthy degree of zeticism at all times and you won't be dissappointed, and finally I quote Robert Anton Wilson when he said"..two rules for life...1) Never totally believe anyones belief system 2) Never totally believe your own belief system....". Invest in loss my friend.

[wujidude]

Daredevil:

Wang Feng Ming knows Chen taijiquan applications and integrates them into his regular form classes to provide illustration of where the jin/energies in the movements should go. He can be pretty lively in push-hands. Before he took up with Feng Zhiqiang some 25 years ago, Wang studied Nine Palaces baguazhang with Liu Xing-han. He might be interested in showing you some of that once he gets to know you and you express some interest.

In the times I've trained with them, I've never seen real sparring among Feng's or Wang's students. I understand that Feng Zhiqiang's system does include san shou, but I haven't seen it.

[patriot]

The Feng system has very high level Sanshou techniques. It is taught only to their own advanced students.

[shenwu disciple]

Daredevil,

If you're ever in the states, I strongly recommend you stop by Tim Cartmell's place. He's very open about his teaching and he won't get offened if you ask him to spar, quite frankly because that's part of the learning process. In fact, you'd probably get to spar w/him the first time you meet him because that's he does after every class/seminar he teaches. I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Daredevil]

Heya,

Yeah, I've looked at Tim Cartmell's stuff on the 'Net and from what I can gather from only that, I like what I've seen very much. I'd be very interested in checking it out, but indeed, I live very far from having a chance to do that.