Wu De

[Ronin maximus]

I've been lurking this forum for awhile, and after watching the "Silicon Tigers" threaten each other I've come to the conclusion that Wu De is dead.

[Ronin maximus]

Looks like everyone is dodging this question, which after the events of the last 2 weeks proves my POINT!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Xia]

Wu De still exists. One should never discount the Wu De of those that have it because of individuals that lack it.

[Ronin maximus]

But to say you have Wu De does not mean you have it.
Although from your posts I think you do:D

Anyone who claims to be a Sifu should live by example and not just tell people how to act.

Gen. Patton showed that by pushing a string on a table and watching it curl up then pulled the string saying (paraphrase)
"You should Lead men not push them"

[Shaolinlueb]

if judging by the way people act on this board. i voted no.

when i was at tjl this year and my past weekend surrounded by an awesome choy li fut crowd in florida. i say it is alive and well.

adam

[street_fighter]

This forum is the first place I have heard 'wu de'. Embarrassingly enough, I don't know what it is:o ...

[The Xia]

This forum is the first place I have heard 'wu de'. Embarrassingly enough, I don't know what it is:o ...
No need to be embarrassed. Wu De is Mandarin for martial ethics. Mo Duk would be the Cantonese equivalent.

[street_fighter]

Thank you. I figured it was something like that :).

[TenTigers]

Mo-Duk is alive and well, just as real Gung-Fu is alive and well.
-it just ain't out in the open!;)

[Mr Punch]

I've never heard a wing chun sifu use the expression at all.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist to them, just saying. Doesn't mean it does, though either!

But maybe it's an interesting point. If we are to believe any of the foundation legends wing chun was an outlaw's style passed down to become the 'gangster fist' of backstreet HK. We could say Mo Duk would not be relevant or apparent in these cases, but we can also see that in many cases there is honour amongst thieves. We could also say (however true it is) that the original outlaws were outlaws because the laws of the time were unjust, which may put Mo Duk into another perspective: the old 'one man's terrorism is another man's freedom fight' gag.

There are many such outlaw-derived MA, and many such points. Mo Duk is not simple enough to say just plainly whether it exists or doesn't.

And more honestly, since we are primarily English speakers on this board, we should frame the question in English! You might say, 'Are you moral?' or you might say, 'Are you moralistic?' and by logical extension, 'Are you a moralistic pr!ck?' and you might be getting somewhat nearer the point with some of the more pompous, high-falutin posters on this board who judgmentally make moral implications at others!

See, it's complicated in any language, without having the cultural baggage of another people's history added on.

Maybe that's why I like wing chun: it is more simple - you punch, you kick, you get your arse kicked by a BJJer...! What's to philosophise about?!

[TenTigers]

I LIKE it! I LIKE it!
I'm a moralistic pr!ck!
I'm a Mo-Duk-Dik !:D

-has all the makings of a rap song

[The Xia]

I've never heard a wing chun sifu use the expression at all.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist to them, just saying. Doesn't mean it does, though either!
It's understandable that a Wing Chun sifu wouldn't use the term Wu De. Wu De is Mandarin. Mo Duk, which is Cantonese, would likely be the term used by a Wing Chun sifu.

[Mr Punch]

I LIKE it! I LIKE it!
I'm a moralistic pr!ck!
I'm a Mo-Duk-Dik !:D

-has all the makings of a rap songI wasn't aiming at anyone in particular... buuuut I suppose if the helmet fits...


It's understandable that a Wing Chun sifu wouldn't use the term Wu De. Wu De is Mandarin. Mo Duk, which is Cantonese, would likely be the term used by a Wing Chun sifu.Congrats on your Level 1 Comprehension Test. There are ten levels. Perhaps you could practice for Level 2 by reading the next three lines. See if you can spot the words MO DUK. Try it and see!

[golden arhat]

wu de is alive
but not well i found it at my valetudo club they get all the crap knocked out of them till they become humble (this is the best method for swallowing your pride)
wu de doesnt have to just exist in cma u can find it in loads of places
lol

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Wu De.. Martial Ethics.. That has a huge range of interpretations.. there is no consensus on a common set of ethics for martial artists.. so, there is this arguement about whose ethics are more appropriate.. From my perspective, for whatever that's worth, i think the first imperative is to agree on a goal, then we can determine the appropriate ethics for achieving that goal..

Is it the goal of MA to produce the meanest baddest MF'r, then rule by force of intimidation? Is it the goal of MA to produce people capable of defending themselves in hostile situations? Is it the goal of MA to affect society's perception of MA, perhaps through demonstrating the benefits of hard discipline.. Is it MA's goal to preserve a history of martial culture.. Is it MA's goal to produce physically capable, morally responsible and culturally independent members of society.. the ethics are dependent on the goals.. Pirates and thugs and crime syndicates have (or had) "ethics" of a sort.. even some politicians have... oh, never mind...

It seems to me that there are differing schools of thought within the MA community.. one is the purely sport-fighting group.. another is the cultural preservation group.. and another, is the philosophical, artsy, almost cultish group.. not that any one is more appropriate than another, given their goals.. but, at the end of the day, it IS MA.. and credible demonstrations of MA abilities is essential to be recognized as a Martial Art.. it is not necessary to dominate a particular fight venue to demonstrate effective MA within a style, many styles are unconcerned with organized contests.. but, the "hard work" (Kung Fu) should be observable and tested with results that give the students a higher likelihood of successfully defending themselves in an average confrontation.. not every street fight is against Tito Ortiz.. but, if you have really crappy luck, and **** Tito off, "you gotta know when to hold 'em, and you gotta know when to fold 'em".. hence, the usefulness of running as a cardio conditioning exercise..

More is to be gained by respecting the efforts of people that sincerely train, even though they train differently than we prefer.. than in instigating conflict or insisting that our preference are somehow superior.. I am certain that everyone is aware of their limitations, aware of the limitations of their style(s).. but, they have invested time and money in their accomplishments and feel compelled to defend their investments.. No one that does forms only training watches a UFC match or a Cage match and really believes theay can get in there and survive 10 seconds ( i'm certain i can last 12 seconds at least, i fall slowly.. it's Taiji thing ).. Much of the bickering on these forums is ego and pride, not what one truely believes.. at least i hope that's true, otherwise there's a fantasy reality that i have missed somewhere..

Be well..

[The Xia]

I wasn't aiming at anyone in particular... buuuut I suppose if the helmet fits...

Congrats on your Level 1 Comprehension Test. There are ten levels. Perhaps you could practice for Level 2 by reading the next three lines. See if you can spot the words MO DUK. Try it and see!
I know that you used the term Mo Duk. I was explaining why a Wing Chun sifu wouldn't likely use the term Wu De.

[Ronin maximus]

I guess the poll should have been " Do you practice Wu De or just pretend to?":D

I noticed a few of the "regulars" in this forum were conspicuously absent from this poll.

And yes, this is an Ego check for everyone. Myself included.

[David Jamieson]

martial ethics.

borderline oxymoron if you ask me, but there you have it.
:)

wu de/mo duk (whatever :rolleyes: ) isn't dead, it's mostly lost in translation.

[Ronin maximus]

martial ethics.

borderline oxymoron if you ask me, but there you have it.
:)

wu de/mo duk (whatever :rolleyes: ) isn't dead, it's mostly lost in translation.

You've got a point.:D but your "whatever" response is an example of almost every kid today. And that shows a lack of Wu De.
Just because we train to DEFEND ourselves doesn't mean we can't live by the "Golden Rule" ( for those who missed the class on that one it's
"Treat everyone the way you want them to treat you")
And it's not lost in translation, Because that's all you'd have to teach!
Don't get me wrong 'cause if someone attacks me then I apply the inverse of the golden rule on them;)

And Thanks for helping me make my point!

[David Jamieson]

thanks mahatma! :p

[SifuAbel]

Since when does following we de make one a passified cow that would rather be butt raped than speak out and defend what one believes in.

And since when does dispatching some tard, virtual or otherwise, make one a bad example?

[lkfmdc]

Wu De/Mo Duk was a construction, an attempt at social acceptance, adopt confucian like values and get acceptance as a valued member of society... but considering how many Chinese martial artists were soldiers, mercenaries, hired killers, gangsters, opium smokers, gamblers, street fighters, etc what does it really mean?

[YiLiQuan1]

but considering how many Chinese martial artists were soldiers, mercenaries, hired killers, gangsters, opium smokers, gamblers, street fighters, etc what does it really mean?

Amen.

Though wu de is a highly regarded, highly valued, cultivated characteristic, one I think everyone should put some time into developing, it's a fantasy, a myth, and mostly absent from many of the prominent historical figures in Chinese martial history.

It's like the Shaolin myth about pacifist Buddhist monks being the baddest fighters around (when their religion specifically prohibits violence).

Martial artists should focus first on fighting. Through the arduous training of real fighting, humility of one sort or another is gradually developed. Even Tito Ortiz managed to "grow up" following his final fight with Frankie Shamrock...

Focusing on humility first, and fighting skills second, places the cart before the horse. If you want to develop your personality, to polish your character only, there are better ways to do it than to pose in silk pajamas trying desperately to convince everyone of your deadliness... :rolleyes: That just cheapens the hard work of others.

[lkfmdc]

If you want to develop your personality, to polish your character only, there are better ways to do it than to pose in silk pajamas trying desperately to convince everyone of your deadliness... :rolleyes: That just cheapens the hard work of others.

had to re-post that :D

new sig line? ;)

[YiLiQuan1]

had to re-post that :D

new sig line? ;)

I seem to recall disagreeing with you about something, somewhen in the past... But here's my take on things -

Our ability to disagree, perhaps even violently, but to put it down, continue to discuss on other issues, and even appreciate the perspective/experience/etc. of the other is a display of the beloved wu de of the character developers/role-players.

The difference is that whatever interaction we may have, it's not the result of some basement-contained, dungeons and dragons fueled, fantasy world where our fancy stances, pretty poses, and tough talk define our "warrior ethos."

Fight. Pump iron. Meditate. There's your secret to success, physical, mental, spiritual and otherwise...

[lkfmdc]

I seem to recall disagreeing with you about something,


with ME :confused:

unpossible :D

[YiLiQuan1]

lkfmdc? What's that stand for?

Are you DR? Just curious, not that it matters...

[lkfmdc]

Lama Kung Fu Modern Defense Concepts

Have had the acronym since 91, maye earlier (old AOL boards)... back when we were still trying to figure out how to make CTS teachings relevant to most people living in the real world :D

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4098/mdcintro.html
very old article, I don't even necessarily agree with things I believed back then, that's life, you experience, you move forward, you change

DR? David Ross... yes, that's me...

[The Xia]

Wu De/Mo Duk was a construction, an attempt at social acceptance, adopt confucian like values and get acceptance as a valued member of society... but considering how many Chinese martial artists were soldiers, mercenaries, hired killers, gangsters, opium smokers, gamblers, street fighters, etc what does it really mean?
I would agree that Kung Fu wasn't an acceptable practice in the eyes of the throne. Therefore, certain elements labeled undesirable by the throne would practice it. However, the Ching Dynasty wasn't exactly popular. Many organizations dedicated to overthrowing the Ching formed. These organizations were filled with Kung Fu fighters. Part of Mo Duk is righteousness. So isn't opposing tyranny righteous? Even during the warring states period, Han Fei Zi labeled xia (my forum name lol) as one of the five vermin of China. The idea of the xia isn't a Confucian construct. In fact, a key characteristic of a xia is individualism. All manner of fighters can be classified as xia. Many individuals classified as xia were mercanaries, assassins, rebels, etc. That doesn't mean they have no ethics and ideals. It's just their ethics and ideals didn't coincide with Imperial-Confucian standard. Even the style of Wong Yen Lem, who is famous for maiming and killing challengers, is called Hop Gar.

[YiLiQuan1]

I would agree that Kung Fu wasn't an acceptable practice in the eyes of the throne. Therefore, certain elements labeled undesirable by the throne would practice it.

It was practiced by elements of society that were "unsavory," but it was practiced by the common man, the common soldier, much more so than high-minded, self-righteous intellectuals.


However, the Ching Dynasty wasn't exactly popular. Many organizations dedicated to overthrowing the Ching formed. These organizations were filled with Kung Fu fighters. Part of Mo Duk is righteousness. So isn't opposing tyranny righteous?

Certainly. But the difference between that kind of righteousness, and that practiced by modern day wannabe warriors, is distinct, don't you think?


Many individuals classified as xia were mercanaries, assassins, rebels, etc. That doesn't mean they have no ethics and ideals. It's just their ethics and ideals didn't coincide with Imperial-Confucian standard.

The point, though, is that cultivating wu de without cultivating the genuine fighting skill that goes along with it is akin to putting the cart before the horse. It's focusing on the flower, not the root; the end result and not the process. I can't think that anyone would genuinely advocate martial practice for the primary purpose of character development without any real stock placed in the fighting skills developed as the vehicle for said development...

[The Xia]

It was practiced by elements of society that were "unsavory," but it was practiced by the common man, the common soldier, much more so than high-minded, self-righteous intellectuals.
I'd agree that it was not a practice of Confucian nobles. However, there are many scholars that joined the ranks of those deemed "undesirable" for philisophical reasons, not passing state exams, etc. I'm not saying this is everyone though.



It Certainly. But the difference between that kind of righteousness, and that practiced by modern day wannabe warriors, is distinct, don't you think?
I would agree that the granola-eating new agers have it wrong.




The point, though, is that cultivating wu de without cultivating the genuine fighting skill that goes along with it is akin to putting the cart before the horse. It's focusing on the flower, not the root; the end result and not the process. I can't think that anyone would genuinely advocate martial practice for the primary purpose of character development without any real stock placed in the fighting skills developed as the vehicle for said development...
Kung Fu class shouldn't be preachy. Classes should be spent training hard and with a combative mindset. You have to be self-disciplined and be combat-oriented to achieve a high level of Kung Fu. Therefore, someone without self-discipline and a combat-oriented mentality won't gain proficiency in Kung Fu anyway. Achieving great skill in martial arts does change you. Mo Duk factors in here.
Essentially, I’m not sure we disagree. Mo Duk exists but it's not the new age crap.

[David Jamieson]

uh, i wouldn't get upset about yet another blowhard troll comin in, making hot few posts and presuming to chastise us all because of some other interpretation of wu de is.

Not too mention the white bread americanized crapfest-o-rama that is appeared to be tied to his interpretation of it. Hippy hippy Goose of ya ask me.

wu de is simply not driving your fist into some idiots face when he ticks you off with his stupid and empty words. All bets are off if a hand should be raqised towards you, then it becomes a matter of whether or not he's worth killing. :p

[SPJ]

In response to the first post;

A Buddhist view;

The difference between the heart of the buddha (Fo) and the heart of the devil (Mo) is only one idea/intent (Nian).

The intent to defend yourself and not get hurt or to hurt others without remorse or second thought.

Compassion for others?

We may espouse all the codes and rules all we want. It all comes down to one idea/intent.

"Put down the butchering Dao (intent) and become a buddha on the spot".

--

:D

[Ronin maximus]

uh, i wouldn't get upset about yet another blowhard troll comin in, making hot few posts and presuming to chastise us all because of some other interpretation of wu de is.

Not too mention the white bread americanized crapfest-o-rama that is appeared to be tied to his interpretation of it. Hippy hippy Goose of ya ask me.

wu de is simply not driving your fist into some idiots face when he ticks you off with his stupid and empty words. All bets are off if a hand should be raqised towards you, then it becomes a matter of whether or not he's worth killing. :p

(stepping off of high horse) I agree w/you but my intent was to find out if any of the smack talkers on this forum had any idea what Wu De is:D
so I guess I'm guilty of trolling.:rolleyes: I was under the mistaken impression that Sifu's were supposed to be an example to others in the community (not just the MA world) and the recent behavior witnessed in this forum showed me otherwise.:mad:

[David Jamieson]

it's a forum, not a mo gwoon. what do you expect from these places?

[Ronin maximus]

I did expect too much from a forum, but it is a PUBLIC place were people come for info about CMA. And once again a Sifu s/b an example to the community at large. Not just inside a training hall. Maybe I'm just intertwining the Bushido ethics I learned in the JMA world.;)

[YiLiQuan1]

Not sure what JMA background you have, but in either case (JMA or CMA) your perception of the role of a martial arts teacher is skewed. Unfortunately (or fortunately, for "support group" consideration) you're not alone...

A martial arts teacher is not now, nor have they historically been, models of proper social behavior. A martial arts teacher, especially those of the mini-mall variety, lack any type of training that would allow them to provide insight, advice, or guidance of any sort, to their students regarding non-martial arts oriented behavior.

Granted, in many arts there are codes of behavior that are encouraged. The simple reality is that many JMAs, like Shotokan, due to their association with public education, maintain aspects from Japanese educational models for children and teens (e.g. dojo kun). These aspects were never really intended for "adult consumption," but were never fully removed from the training curriculum. As these martial arts commercialized, little concern (if any) was given to the applicability of the training to the non-educational environment. One of the unfortunate realities is that the transition of martial arts from Asian cultures/countries to the West included some less than honest behavior on the part of the instructors who deliberately taught substandard material to their unsuspecting Western students. These students in turn, not knowing any better, returned to the West to teach these "Asian fighting arts," unaware that they'd been taken to the cleaners and taught completely craptacular "secrets" in exchange for their dojo tuition...

This, then, is the source of much of the low quality, home grown, self-made garbage that has become so ingrained in the MA community. This includes the idea that somehow, due to fighting skill, a martial arts teacher is something above and beyond being only a fight instructor...

I've made this argument before, and too often it falls on deaf ears. Bottom line, everyone who has a public position - coaches, teachers, law enforcement, etc. - should aspire to be a good role model and example to others. Unfortunately, being a good role model doesn't imply or include doing anything other than doing the right thing within their own life and allowing that to be a living example. Giving advice and/or instruction in how to live is outside the scope of their training and they should keep their mouths shut on the subject.

Enjoy.

[Faruq]

D@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@mmmmnnnn! Case closed! LOL

[YouKnowWho]

One of the Wu De is to "Chu Chan Fu Rou - help the weak to fight the strong" but I don't think George Bush like to hear that.

[David Jamieson]

the only point in a lot of it that jibes with me is to extend courtesy to those who extend courtesy to you.

everything else is subjective and based on the morality or ethical bent of whoever wrote it down and stuck it on the wall for the kids to recite as part of their how not to be an ass hole with what they are being taught lessons.

[SPJ]

one big thing other than helping the weak and not being a bully yourself.

is to have honesty and integrity.

to be fair and just.

there are certain things you would do, there are also things you would not do.

be truthful to yourself and then to others.

--

:D

[Ronin maximus]

I would like to thank everyone who responded to this thread for showing me that on this forum Wu De exists at least as much as the $h1te talking:D

[Ronin maximus]

Not sure what JMA background you have, but in either case (JMA or CMA) your perception of the role of a martial arts teacher is skewed. Unfortunately (or fortunately, for "support group" consideration) you're not alone...

A martial arts teacher is not now, nor have they historically been, models of proper social behavior. A martial arts teacher, especially those of the mini-mall variety, lack any type of training that would allow them to provide insight, advice, or guidance of any sort, to their students regarding non-martial arts oriented behavior.

Granted, in many arts there are codes of behavior that are encouraged. The simple reality is that many JMAs, like Shotokan, due to their association with public education, maintain aspects from Japanese educational models for children and teens (e.g. dojo kun). These aspects were never really intended for "adult consumption," but were never fully removed from the training curriculum. As these martial arts commercialized, little concern (if any) was given to the applicability of the training to the non-educational environment. One of the unfortunate realities is that the transition of martial arts from Asian cultures/countries to the West included some less than honest behavior on the part of the instructors who deliberately taught substandard material to their unsuspecting Western students. These students in turn, not knowing any better, returned to the West to teach these "Asian fighting arts," unaware that they'd been taken to the cleaners and taught completely craptacular "secrets" in exchange for their dojo tuition...

This, then, is the source of much of the low quality, home grown, self-made garbage that has become so ingrained in the MA community. This includes the idea that somehow, due to fighting skill, a martial arts teacher is something above and beyond being only a fight instructor...

I've made this argument before, and too often it falls on deaf ears. Bottom line, everyone who has a public position - coaches, teachers, law enforcement, etc. - should aspire to be a good role model and example to others. Unfortunately, being a good role model doesn't imply or include doing anything other than doing the right thing within their own life and allowing that to be a living example. Giving advice and/or instruction in how to live is outside the scope of their training and they should keep their mouths shut on the subject.

Enjoy.
Okinawan and Yaqui "Indian" Brujo theory(Jma Background and a lil' sumthin' extra)

Also what about priests giving marital advice?:rolleyes:

[YiLiQuan1]

Okinawan and Yaqui "Indian" Brujo theory(Jma Background and a lil' sumthin' extra)

Though I mean a good-natured dollop of humor with my responses, I still maintain that your training has been a little "fantasy-based" where it concerns itself with what a martial arts instructor can and/or should teach. I think the addition of Yaqui traditions are not in and of themselves necessarily compatible with those dealing with a fight instructor...

A Warrior will be a warrior, a healer, an academic, a philosopher. But not all fighting instructors are Warriors. Not all martial artists are artists; many are technicians and little more. Some aren't much in the way of technical competence, but they carry "life-wisdom" due to their life experiences. Expecting a martial arts instructor to adhere to the full ideal is impractical at best, and quite likely inappropriate as well. They should stick to what they know, and only that. If they exemplify the "fourfold path," great! Pass it on... Unfortunately, the vast, vast majority of martial arts instructors are too shallow in their study of just the fighting aspect, much less the other aspects!


Also what about priests giving marital advice?:rolleyes:

I don't agree with that either...

Funny story. My wife and I were married in 1988. We were both baptized Catholic, but as I was in the Army (stationed out of state), the local church wouldn't marry us under their jurisdiction because I couldn't attend marital counseling with my wife. They wouldn't accept my attending counseling with a Catholic priest where I was stationed; it had to be the same priest my wife would see. So we were married in a Presbyterian church that didn't care where I lived!

Many years later, wanting to get our marriage blessed by the church, we went to take our compatibility test (seriously), and to review our results with the priest (who was the same age as we were). Our results were nearly 90% identical (we'd been married for quite some time by this point), yet he still wanted to review each and every answer to examine it for some small indicator of incompatibility...

Finally, we stopped going to see him... He was the same age as we were, never married, and was presuming to tell us how to live our lives... Whatever.

I walk the talk I talk, believe me.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


everyone who has a public position - coaches, teachers, law enforcement, etc. - should aspire to be a good role model and example to others. Unfortunately, being a good role model doesn't imply or include doing anything other than doing the right thing within their own life and allowing that to be a living example. Giving advice and/or instruction in how to live is outside the scope of their training and they should keep their mouths shut on the subject.While i largely agree with the quote, what about those unfortunate incidents where a student or Kung Fu Brother is identified as a real trouble-maker or just a nusance outside the school ? Suppose the Sifu's "example" is ignored, do we have the responsibility to make corrections? To the outsider, it could appear that the Sifu is only interested in fees, regardless of the character of the student or use of the lessons taught.. the Sifu that lives a good example but fails to control a student's misuse of the Art has the appearance of a double standard..

I am quite aware of the general sentiment that Kung Fu, or all MA for that matter, should be interested strictly in producing highly competent fighters.. yet, somehow, that seems socially irresponsible.. there is much evidence that suggests that the "tradition" of Kung Fu is less than squeaky clean and morally respectable.. i think that sometimes we need to evolve past the limitations and stigmas of "tradition".. i see it all the time as people turn to other arts in order to enhance their combat skills, could there be some wisdom in evolving past a purely fight oriented MA?

Violence is rampant and on the increase in our civilization, is it socially responsible to keep feeding the cycle of violence by producing highly competent fighters with no code of ethics?

Just some ramdom thoughts.. Be well..

[YiLiQuan1]

While i largely agree with the quote, what about those unfortunate incidents where a student or Kung Fu Brother is identified as a real trouble-maker or just a nusance outside the school ? Suppose the Sifu's "example" is ignored, do we have the responsibility to make corrections?

In this example, perhaps... But I'd say that the responsibility for that person's development was the responsibility of his/her parents, and if he/she has gotten this far in life without learning the right lessons... Well, maybe I'm just a hair too cynical, but I suspect that no matter how right-living the sifu and senior students may be, no amount of "correction" is going to take root. I'd think that the greater likelihood would be that the wayward student would simply leave, corrections unmade. Wasted effort in the long run... :(


To the outsider, it could appear that the Sifu is only interested in fees, regardless of the character of the student or use of the lessons taught.. the Sifu that lives a good example but fails to control a student's misuse of the Art has the appearance of a double standard...

Granted. However, see above... Additionally, my initial perspective is that I'm none too keen on students coming into a martial arts school looking not for martial arts but for character development. I'll refer them to the local not-for-credit university courses for that... It's not that I believe character improvement can't take place through martial arts, but as I've said elsewhere on the internet, I think it's like playing baseball to get physically fit; it's bound to happen, in time, but it's going to be a gradual, inefficient process that is outside the scope of the activity and only a peripheral benefit, not the main goal.


I am quite aware of the general sentiment that Kung Fu, or all MA for that matter, should be interested strictly in producing highly competent fighters..

I never said "interested strictly in producing highly competent fighters." A martial arts school is just that; it's not a social finishing school, designed and intended to create more courteous, polite, socially responsible citizens. What I said is that a martial arts instructor, regardless of tradition/culture of origin, should stick to what they are trained to do. In most cases, dispensing "life counseling" isn't it. For that matter, there are plenty martial arts instructors that aren't really qualified to teach martial arts! I don't think anyone would argue that they should be allowed to teach irresponsible, unrealistic, potentially dangerous techniques to unsuspecting students, leading said students to develop a false sense of safety and confidence, would they? I think it's a similar situation with the "how to live your life" advice some teachers try to force upon their students...


yet, somehow, that seems socially irresponsible.. there is much evidence that suggests that the "tradition" of Kung Fu is less than squeaky clean and morally respectable.. i think that sometimes we need to evolve past the limitations and stigmas of "tradition".. i see it all the time as people turn to other arts in order to enhance their combat skills, could there be some wisdom in evolving past a purely fight oriented MA?

Certainly, but I'd counter that the budo that evolved out of bujutsu was originally forwarded by teachers who had developed their do from hard, arduous, demanding, painful training, not from being preached to, reciting neat mantras and dojo kun, and "earning" belts/ranks/titles that are worth less than the fancy paper they're printed on.


Violence is rampant and on the increase in our civilization, is it socially responsible to keep feeding the cycle of violence by producing highly competent fighters with no code of ethics?

I don't necessarily agree that violence is on the rise now any more than it ever was. Perhaps with larger populations the same percentage of violence seems greater as the same percentage represents a larger quantity of reports. Whatever.

I don't know that we're feeding the cycle of violence either... If that code of ethical and moral behavior is taught at home, then neither sifu nor sensei are going to really be all that influential anyway. Perhaps they'll help define the student's belief as the student grows, ages, and better outlines what it is they believe. But if the code is wholly absent through poor parenting and bad environmental reinforcement, I question what impact an unqualified, untrained, and in many cases flawed and meddling martial arts teacher is going to have...

[SPJ]

Personally, I think it is too much to ask a MA teacher/instructor to indoctrinate ethics, too.

With the little time with the students, you are probably just teaching/showing and correcting techiques, practice etc.

As the old folk saying goes, "you may teach a bird (how) to fly, and yet it is up to the bird to fly to where and when."

"You may lead a bull to the capital of Beijing from the countryside and let him witness all the refinements of things, and yet a bull is still a bull." meaning it is very difficult to change the personality and characters of a person.

However, how to tell right from wrong or how to decide what is the right thing to do in any moment of one's life. One has to look inside oneself and find answers oneself.

--

:D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


But I'd say that the responsibility for that person's development was the responsibility of his/her parentsThe parents have the primary responsibility for character development, i agree.. but the evidence, as supported by Sociologists, Psychologists, and Corrections Officials is that the ever increasing demands on the parents is reducing the effectiveness of home character development.. i also am of the opinion that society, MA included, needs to reinforce the attributes of appropriate character development..

Additionally, my initial perspective is that I'm none too keen on students coming into a martial arts school looking not for martial arts but for character development.I agree, but.. students come to a MA school for MA, it is a decision of the teacher to add social value to the mix.. a student looking for character development from a MA school is misplaced to begin with, the focus is MA.. discipline and hard work will develop a certain character on its own, i only suggest that the responsible teacher insert lessons regarding the responsible use of skills learned..

being preached to, reciting neat mantras and dojo kun, and "earning" belts/ranks/titles that are worth less than the fancy paper they're printed on.I do not suggest this sort of indoctrination, i only suggest that when we teach skills that can result in severe harm or even death when used, we also instill a sort of understanding of the appropriateness for use of those skills..

I think it's a similar situation with the "how to live your life" advice some teachers try to force upon their students...How a student lives their lives is their business.. how they use the art i teach is my business as well as theirs, it reflects on me and the Art..

I am not suggesting that the MA teacher tell a student how to live their lives.. i am suggesting that the sensible and responsible use of the MA is appropriate as part of the MA curriculum.. It reflects on the student, the teacher, the Master, the Art, and all MA.. It is too easy to romanticize the darker traditions of MA, it is more difficult to evolve into a socially responsible Art.. one that contributes to its society.. Society is full of evidence that parenting alone is not doing the job, do we, as MA teachers, give up as well?

Be well..

[FuXnDajenariht]

it could be argued that martial arts already has the perception of being to a small degree about character development. look at movies nowadays and every wannabe fighter quoting fortune cookie wisdom.

maybe thats the only reason its sumwhat socially accepted today... i doubt millions of middle america soccer moms would allow their children to learn fighting arts if this wasn't the perception.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


look at movies nowadays and every wannabe fighter quoting fortune cookie wisdom. You know, it's getting difficult to find a good fortune cookie, nowadays... either they're stale or the fortunes make no sense, maybe it's a Zen thing...

Be well..

[FuXnDajenariht]

lmao i never really liked the things.... though they do come in different flavors now.

[SPJ]

It was first started by a Japanese company.

Nowadays, there are many companies making them. Even some people may customize the notes and home make them.

About the flavors, I like the almond one. dunno like the original flavor.

:)

[ingchao]

Does Sifu=Sensei?:rolleyes:

[YiLiQuan1]

Does Sifu=Sensei?:rolleyes:

No.

Sifu and sensei do not mean the same thing at all. Sensei, for that matter, is used to refer to martial arts teachers, teachers of all other subjects, as well as doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc.

[ingchao]

No.

Sifu and sensei do not mean the same thing at all. Sensei, for that matter, is used to refer to martial arts teachers, teachers of all other subjects, as well as doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc.

I was not looking for a definition.

What I meant was: With the level of respect a Sensei gets these days because of all the McDojos is the title of Sifu going that route?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The mentor that most contributed to my path expected no more than a subtle and polite nod (representing a bow).. he said true respect is shown by your dedication to the art, your willingness to train and your efforts to maintain the school.. maintain as in cleaning and fixing, AND maintaining the school's reputation.. that concept fit well with my personality and i treat my students the same way..

Be well..

[SPJ]

Some well know Wu De:

1. 5 characters: Zhi Xin Yan Yong Yen. wisdom, trustworthiness, discipline/perseverance, courage, etc. First espoused by Sun Tzu over 2200 years ago. They are adopted by Wampao army academy for military officers.

2. Patriotism, loyalty. (Zhong) examplified by general Yue Fei of Song dynasty over 1000 years ago. He wanted to stay home and take care of this mom. His mom tattooed on his back to be "Jin Zhong Bao Kuo". Some said it is just a legend. One has to serve for his country first. If there is no country, there is no family. etc.

3. Loyalty and just. (Yi) examplified by Guan Gong or Guan Yun Chang. He declared brotherhood with Liu Bei. So minister Cao Cao captured him several times and offered positions and money etc. GG refused. So CC had to let him go. GG's Yi is as high as the clouds in the sky.

--

etc.

:)

[SPJ]

some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Fei

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yuefeitattoo.jpg



http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/culture/chinese/CultureEnglish/Story/Estory0401_18.htm#

http://www.china-defense.com/naval/huangpu/huangpu_08.html

http://www.cksmh.gov.tw/cks/eduweb-utf8/english/index.php?menu_ID=3&page_ID=c3-2-12

:)

[FuXnDajenariht]

hey kewl. those are the dudes they based Dynasty Warrriors on. :D

[Ray Pina]

Wu De, like much of martial arts, is alive in as much as individuals continue to live it.

Attacking someone's training/expression over the internet (slander) to raise oneself up is a sign of pride or even worse, envy or insecurity. To do so while speaking from inexperience is foolish, disgraceful and potentially dangerous.... no Wu De there.

Standing tall, fixing one's gi so it's crisp, bowing/saluting to your opponant as a sign of mutual respect... fighting your best ... winning/losing with honor....

Walking/talking true to yourself as an example to others....

Wu De is there and a live.

[SPJ]

hey kewl. those are the dudes they based Dynasty Warrriors on. :D

Yes. Guan Yu/Guan Yun Chang is a symbolism of Yi.

And Yue Fei is a symbolism of Zhong.

:)

[SPJ]

Attacking someone's training/expression over the internet (slander) to raise oneself up is a sign of pride or even worse, envy or insecurity. To do so while speaking from inexperience is foolish, disgraceful and potentially dangerous.... no Wu De there.


We may be good at something. We may not be good at something else. If the comments are good, we accept them. If they are not sound, I would just shrugg it off.

Wu De may be different things for different people. But a common courtesy is always observed.

Personally, practice of MA would make us humble.

"there is always another higher mountain and another deeper pond."

"the bottle that is full of water makes no sound." "the bottle that is half full makes the loudest noises." etc

If we are honest with ourself, we know what we are capable of and what we may not be able to do. We are at peace with ourself.

On the other hand, if we make claims about things that we are not able to do; then we deceive ourself first and we are blinded by our prides. And we are further from the truths. Then we may not see things clearly. Because we are clouded up with deceit and pride. That is more of a danger than anything else.

My brothers and cousins like say to one another.

What did you just do? YOU SUCK. I then say YOU SUCK, too. And then we yell at each other YOU SUCK-er etc etc.

Never pay attention to words. They are just empty.

You do what you do. You like what you do. And you know what you do. That is all we can do.

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