Xing Yi, Bagua in Riverside/Orange County Ca

[WushuSmoon]

I am trying to find a Xing Yi or Bagua teacher in Riverside/Orange county. I have tried web searches with no luck what so ever. I did find a couple of schools but they didn't feel right to me.

Does anyone have any suggestions of where I could find a school or teacher?

Thank you in advance.

[Three Harmonies]

In that neck of the woods you would be a fool not to train with Tim Cartmell! www.shenwu.com
The best of the rest!
Jake :)

[woliveri]

Three Harmonies,

When I went by Tim's school after coming to Orange County in 2001 I found he wanted to teach something like an integration or composition which included ground fighting. In other words, he didn't seem to offer pure Bagua, Xin Yi or Taiji at the time. He was very much into BJJ at the time.

Is this still the case?

Does his classes offer Bagua only?

[8palmmojo]

Wushu.....

I am not sure about where the borders of Orange County are, but if you go to chi-arts.com (The Hsing Chen website) there are links to instructors (affiliated schools) in So. Cal. with their phone numbers. Some of these people may be able to point you in the right direction with a simple phone call. I am studying Cheng-style Bagua in Sacramento Ca. with one of Master Bracy's senior students and have indeed found the art to be very real and combat oriented and have found the teaching to be excellent. Also, Master Bracy's e-mail can be found on the site and I suspect he could help you find a qualified teacher.

Take Care and Good Luck,
Scott

[Three Harmonies]

Wolveri
First of all I do not believe the word "pure" belongs in any conversation of martial arts, so I am not sure I can answer that question.
Tim teaches reality based combatives, something he has termed Shen Wu. He has taken the stand up techniques of Xing Yi, Taiji, and Bagua and synthesized them with the ground strategy of BJJ. He has not changed anything, he merely uses what will work and discards the rest. His no BS approach crushes the ideologies of many people who live in some weird qi filled fantasy world. Some people handle it and stick around to become awesome martial artist's, others cannot stand it and go on to find a teacher who will teach them the mystical magical methods of the ancients.
But to answer your question more directly.... yes he still teaches Xing Yi, Bagua, and several styles of Taiji (that is what I train with him in). unfortunately the interest in those arts has dwindled so he just teaches them privately. Sign of the times I guess. But if you go to his public Shen Wu class ALL the stand up techniques are derived from the arts of Xing Yi, Bagua, and Taiji. No forms are taught in that class, just techniques and principles that work.
Hope I answered your questions.
Cheers
Jake :)

[Zenshiite]

I could get you in touch with my Shrfu. He's a Cheng style Ba Gua lineage holder through the Liu Bin line.

Send me a PM and I'll get you contact information, no website as yet.

[woliveri]

yeah,

I somewhat understand where Tim is coming from about the weird mystical qi thing. However, I'm not sure I fully agree with him (If I understand his position).

Qi is an important factor in Bagua training as I understand it. To develop internal energy (Nei Qi) which is the power behind the movements, is quite important (along with rooting, waist usage, etc).

I've been over the hill and through the woods with this subject just trying to find out the facts and gain a clear understanding.

I"m currently training with a Zhan Zhuang teacher who is incredibly powerful just coming from standing. His view is qi flows through the body, energizing the limbs which enhances the power of the limb 10 fold. The more qi and more that can flow through the meridians, the more powerful the result.

From a bagua point of view, the circle walking is also a form a Nei Gong which, as I saw today, is like running into a brick wall. Just incredible power from these guys.

So, I'm not exactly sure where Qi lies in Tim's phillosophy but I'm certain it's an important consideration in Chinese Martial arts.

[Three Harmonies]

Most of what you are talking about is "jin," or trained force. Everything that is alive has Qi, but that has little to do with power. Tim has mentioned numerous times that when in China the guys who knew how to use their arts in fighting never once mentioned Qi.
But I do not care to argue. If it makes you happy, cool.


As a side note I would caution anyone from associating in any way with John Bracy!!

Cheers
Jake :)

[woliveri]

As a side note I would caution anyone from associating in any way with John Bracy!!


Actually, I wasn't going to say anything but since it's been brought up, I totally agree here.



But I do not care to argue. If it makes you happy, cool.


It's not what "makes me happy". I wish to remain objective here. Franky, from what I've seen and felt, I think Tim is missing something if he totally discounts Qi development in the Martial Arts. But, I could be wrong. I'm here to find out.

I've just started with the ZZ Teacher here in Shanghai. After a year or so I'll let you know what I find out, what differences it has made for me and what, if any, uses Qi has in Martial Arts.

[8palmmojo]

My past teacher in Yi-family Tai chi had some misgivings about Master Bracy and was vague about them, not wanting to participate in the "this teacher/art/school is better than someone elses" debates. In browsing these chat rooms, in the U.S. and in Taiwan, I found so much hearsay and infighting in the martial arts and actually felt a certain disgust, or more correctly, a sadness at the character displayed in so many martial forums. In my own past nine years of studying the Chinese Martial arts I have found a lot of pride and competition not befitting of more refined beings. In Taiwan, the slang term "bagua", with the same chinese tones, refers also to the undersided gossip generally prevalent in Taiwan. For example, there are posts questionable of Shenwu as well. What I often find are martial arts cliques. I am wondering, sincerely, within genuine arguments, why the two of you have mentioned a warning about Master Bracy. Is it due to actual, negative experience or some warnings from others? His senior Bagua student, Chris Gulbrandson, is a sincere, warm, and gifted martial artist. So, I am curious, sincerely, why the warnings with Master Bracy? Why the warnings without support?

[Three Harmonies]

In regards to Bracy....
I normally do not dog anyone on the web or in person, to each his own I believe. But I draw the line in some instances, and when it comes to some scum bag the ****s with children, that line is crossed IMO. I know nothing of the man's skills, but the fact that he was nailed not once, BUT TWICE, for sexual misconduct with little boys is certainly enough to get me to bring it up! That **** is unacceptable in my world.


Woliveri,
Perhaps I came across wrong. I cannot speak for Tim, so my personal undertanding is this...
Qi is part of fighting in the fact that if you have no Qi you are dead. But I do not believe it has jack squat to do with fighting ability. I certainly believe in it and think it is a great aspect of the healing arts, but personally has nothing to do with fighting.
For instance...how does doing the Ba Duan Jin (common qigong exercise) improve fighting ability? It doesn't. I keeps your qi strong, and opens your body. But so does a brisk walk in the evening.
See what I mean? I admire your mission to find the deeper explanations to these arts in China. Good luck with your venture, and please keep us informed as to what you find.

Cheers
Jake

[8palmmojo]

Three Harmonies,

Thank you for the partial clarification. I do not know Master Bracy and had not heard of events as severe as you posted.....so if what you wrote is true, it explains the warning.

Scott

[woliveri]

Scott,

My answer regarding Mr. Bracy is along the lines of Jake. From a former student of his who eventually quit and came to our school. He disclosed to me a similar story as Jake but this guy was an Adult.

From my own experience, when I moved to California I went to his school to ask him for help in recommending a Chinese Medical Doctor since he lived in the area for some time. I was quite ill with chronic weak health in need of a good recommendation. Instead he offered to give me a "Aura reading" or some such for 85 or so dollars. I'm the kind of person who if someone like that comes to me for advise and help I will not hesitate to go out of my way to help them. So his response made me feel bad.

So, after my experience and then learning of my fellow classmate's experience I responded the way I did.

Jake, Ba Duan Jin (is that 8 brocades?) If so this is just a general health exercise. From what I'm seeing from the Zhan Zhuang teacher he doesn't practice martial arts but if he presses forward with his palms it's like walking into a brick wall... Anyway, I'm still investigating.

[Zenshiite]

In regards to Bracy....
I normally do not dog anyone on the web or in person, to each his own I believe. But I draw the line in some instances, and when it comes to some scum bag the ****s with children, that line is crossed IMO. I know nothing of the man's skills, but the fact that he was nailed not once, BUT TWICE, for sexual misconduct with little boys is certainly enough to get me to bring it up! That **** is unacceptable in my world.


Woliveri,
Perhaps I came across wrong. I cannot speak for Tim, so my personal undertanding is this...
Qi is part of fighting in the fact that if you have no Qi you are dead. But I do not believe it has jack squat to do with fighting ability. I certainly believe in it and think it is a great aspect of the healing arts, but personally has nothing to do with fighting.
For instance...how does doing the Ba Duan Jin (common qigong exercise) improve fighting ability? It doesn't. I keeps your qi strong, and opens your body. But so does a brisk walk in the evening.
See what I mean? I admire your mission to find the deeper explanations to these arts in China. Good luck with your venture, and please keep us informed as to what you find.

Cheers
Jake


No, I was definitely not suggesting anyone associate with John Bracy either.

Also, it is my understanding that Sifu Yi has cut ties with John Bracy... I'm not sure about the Lius in Beijing though. My guess is that if they know about the situation, they have indeed broken ties with him as well.

Peace,
Dawud

[Three Harmonies]

Dawud,
I did not mean to not associate with you, or your teacher. I can only assume none of you propagate that sick ****, so I hold no judgement on you all.
I would hope all involved would sever ties with him, but you never know.
Peace
Jake :)

[Zenshiite]

Dawud,
I did not mean to not associate with you, or your teacher. I can only assume none of you propagate that sick ****, so I hold no judgement on you all.
I would hope all involved would sever ties with him, but you never know.
Peace
Jake :)

Jake,

From what I understand a couple guys are still associated with him after having initially cut ties... his students that is. And some other dude that was a sport karate practitioner is now teaching Yi family and linking himself to them through Bracy... and he knows of the moral issues surrounding the man.

Not really my place to speak on it, I guess. Didn't realize that Bracy's deviancies are so well known.

Anyways...

Peace,
Dawud

[Samurai Jack]

Apparently James McNiel is relocating his school from Rainbow to Idyllwild CA. It's in Riverside county on Mt. San Jacinto. Beautiful little town, and I like Jim's Hsing-i very much.

His website: http://www.littlenineheaven.com/

[8palmmojo]

To close, for my part, the Bracy discussion........To everyone who posted a reply in regards to Master Bracy, thankyou for doing so. I am studying with Chris Gulbrandson (one of Bracy's senior Bagua students) here in Sacramento (He teaches privately here from his home.) and feel blessed to have found such sincere and gifted teacher and friend and so the news of Bracy seems such a strange alignment when connected to Chris's great character and skill. Grandmaster Yi has often (of the Yi-family Tai Chi style), in the past, stayed at my girlfriend's house (she is Taiwanese) when he is in Sacramento because he really likes her mother's cooking. In spending time with Grandmaster Yi, I never heard any negative mention, but I would not necessarily expect to. If true, the events are unfortunate in many regards
Again, thankyou to everyone who posted.

Scott

[Zenshiite]

To close, for my part, the Bracy discussion........To everyone who posted a reply in regards to Master Bracy, thankyou for doing so. I am studying with Chris Gulbrandson (one of Bracy's senior Bagua students) here in Sacramento (He teaches privately here from his home.) and feel blessed to have found such sincere and gifted teacher and friend and so the news of Bracy seems such a strange alignment when connected to Chris's great character and skill. Grandmaster Yi has often (of the Yi-family Tai Chi style), in the past, stayed at my girlfriend's house (she is Taiwanese) when he is in Sacramento because he really likes her mother's cooking. In spending time with Grandmaster Yi, I never heard any negative mention, but I would not necessarily expect to. If true, the events are unfortunate in many regards
Again, thankyou to everyone who posted.

Scott

Scott,

You're not doing Yi family Shaolin? When was the last time Grandmaster Yi was in Sacto? I'm sure my Shrfu would love to see him again, he's planning a trip to China and Taiwan in January I think.

[8palmmojo]

Zenshiite,

He has not been in Sac., as I know, for a little while. But a closed-door student of his, and past teacher of mine, still sees him and we have gone to Fremont to see him at his daughter's house. My girlfriend's parents have spoken with him on the phone about some health questions but I have not seen him recently.
At the school I studied Yi-family style at, we did do the Yi-family internal shaolin which was more kung fu like. The second half of the class was doing the Yi-family Qi Gong and the the Tai chi forms of the family. It is still the most impressive Tai-Chi that I have encountered. We started with the first three forms: Heaven, Man, and Earth, uniting heaven and earth in man and then went on to the single Tai-Chi sword set and then onto the "Water Style", an Yi-family long form that is very beautiful and rich.
Chris and I do discuss the Yi-family stuff that he came into contact with at Hsing Chen, but mostly we work on the Cheng-style bagua.
As a note, the Yi-family has a bagua that is not often taught that I found out about four years into my training. My past teacher has just recently been o.k.'d to teach it to others. The changes looked interesting.
I too am hoping to be in Taiwan for at least six months soon, by Dec. 5th and I have thought about finding Grandmaster Yi's son, but I will be heavy into Chinese courses in Taichung while there.
I hope you are well,
Scott

[Zenshiite]

As I understand Yi family energy work is amazing. I mean, I do 8 direction Qi Gong and all but I'm not that deep into all of it... just a couple years.

It's cool to chat with someone doing stuff from the same family style I am. Thanks.

Peace.

[D-FENS]

Tim teaches reality based combatives, something he has termed Shen Wu. He has taken the stand up techniques of Xing Yi, Taiji, and Bagua and synthesized them with the ground strategy of BJJ. He has not changed anything, he merely uses what will work and discards the rest. His no BS approach crushes the ideologies of many people who live in some weird qi filled fantasy world. Some people handle it and stick around to become awesome martial artist's, others cannot stand it and go on to find a teacher who will teach them the mystical magical methods of the ancients.
But to answer your question more directly.... yes he still teaches Xing Yi, Bagua, and several styles of Taiji (that is what I train with him in). unfortunately the interest in those arts has dwindled so he just teaches them privately. Sign of the times I guess. But if you go to his public Shen Wu class ALL the stand up techniques are derived from the arts of Xing Yi, Bagua, and Taiji. No forms are taught in that class, just techniques and principles that work.



So he's like an Internal JKD guy basically?

[Three Harmonies]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, but he does not do JKD.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[Zenshiite]

What Tim's doing sounds pretty interesting, I have to say. I mean, MMA guys have pretty strong fight training and regularly whoop on dudes that are mainly BJJ guys and THEY have a pretty good fight game.