On Behalf of Grandmaster Doo Wai

[Dr.Harut]

Since Grandmaster Doo Wai's registration is rejected because Gene thought He might not be the real Grandmaster Doo Wai...but we know that He is the real GN Doo Wai who tried to register, so, I'll post His posts.

Here is Grandmaster Doo Wai's post :


This is Doo Wai, I would like to give a harmless opinion since some on this forum Private message Dr. Harut.

Here is my reply, if you are lima pai then you should be Hop Gar, (Combine family )Lima Pai, ( Lima Pai is from Tibet originally and when it reached China it is called Bak Hok White Crane ) Bak Hok, Lima, and Hop Gar is the same, however the master of hop gar was Ng Yun Ming, Shifu Ng was shot to death during the late 60’s by the Chinese gang, he was shot in the back . You are also Choy Lee Fut, please tell me if you are Hung Sing Choi Lee Fut or Buk Sing Choi Lee Fut ? Can you tell me who developed Buk Sing Choi Lee Fut ?

As far as you said there is a lot of frauds out there and I do agreed with you, there is a lot of people opening schools and listing a list of system they supposedly mastered, now that to me look like a fraud.

[lkfmdc]

One, I suggest you stick to discussing things you know about. And apparently you don't know anything about Lama Pai, Hop Ga, Bak Hok or the lineages involved...

People from all these systems know that while related, they aren't all the same!

Ng YIM Ming.... I'll get to your poor Chinese in a minute, was one of MANY Hop Gar sifu... and his lineage is different than White crane and Lama Pai lineages

By the way, for a Chinese person, hmmmmm, you don't know that the "Hop" in Hop Gar is NOT "combined" :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Two, on behalf of many people on this forum who have asked

Can you do your Chi Kung demonstrations in a neutral location under the eye of people who have knowledge of magic tricks?

If your Chi Kung is what you say it is, all you'd have to do is perform your Chi Kung and you'd collect one million dollars

Are you opposed to collecting one million dollars for some reason?

[lkfmdc]

Three, do you care to comment on the law suit the Miao/Miu family brought against you that you LOST?

The law suit brought into question many of your lineage and achievement claims.

According to the records, during the trial you were either unable to prove or simply didn't respond to the claims.

Which was it? Were you unable to prove your claims? Or did you simply not respond?

If you didnt' respond, why not?

[lkfmdc]

Four, do you have any ethical concerns about promoting the use of animal fur? Some people find killing animals to use their skins both barbaric and inhumane.

Do you know there is a world wide movement opposed to the use of fur?

I'll concede, you don't have to agree with movements like PETA, but you have to also accept that people who believe this find your videos OFFENSIVE

[Dr.Harut]

Two, on behalf of many people on this forum who have asked

Can you do your Chi Kung demonstrations in a neutral location under the eye of people who have knowledge of magic tricks?

If your Chi Kung is what you say it is, all you'd have to do is perform your Chi Kung and you'd collect one million dollars

Are you opposed to collecting one million dollars for some reason?

I told...I am posting on Grandmaster Doo Wai's behalf...that means He is the one who is writing the posts...and am just copying them here

Please wait...you will receive reply

[lkfmdc]

Feel free to answer any or all of the above questions....

[lkfmdc]

Oh, I sort of already asked him this but let's make it a formal question

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL CHARACTER FOR "HOP" in "HOP GAR" AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN.....

[lkfmdc]

清代末叶，游方僧人金钩禅师，从四州省至广东肇庆鼎湖山庆云寺，将此拳传王隱林为了纪年其师，以金钩禅师有 “大侠李胡子”之称，遂将他传留拳技命名侠拳. 王隱林当初技成下山，曾远赴陕西省一带，隱身镖局，广结四方英豪，为的是恢复大明江山，但始终未能如愿.晚 年本落叶归根计，便返回广东. 其後在广州设馆教拳术，兼悬壶济也. 王隱林祖师武技高强，独树一帜於岭南，因而声名远播，成为广东武坛“拾虎＂之一.

[lkfmdc]

ok, it did, it's Chinese... ask Doo wai to read it, it actually has the answer to one of the questions I just asked him....

[Dr.Harut]

This is Grandmaster Doo Wai's reply:

Shifu Ross do you know little John Davis since you are Jujitsu ?

[lkfmdc]

This is Grandmaster Doo Wai's reply:

Shifu Ross do you know little John Davis since you are Jujitsu ?

I asked you FIVE questions, and your reply is not to answer a single one?

hmmmmmmm........

I'm a Lama Pai person, remember, and who I know or don't know has NOTHING to do with the questions asked

Please ANSWER THE QUESTIONS ASKED

[Dr.Harut]

This is private message that I received...I forwarded it to Grandmaster Doo Wai and Here is Grandmaster Doo Wai's reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Harut
Thats ok with us if a person is impressed or not...will not argue with anyone...but when I read a sentence where Bak Fu Pai is said to be sloppy Bak Mei...that teases me...Bak Fu Pai is not Bak Mei...even if they seem similar.

lets stop this impression issue...everyone is free...we are also free to post our forms clips and how they should be performed...thats our right too.

Anyway...wish you nice day

This what Shifu Parella replied:

So why is BFP different than BM? It looks too much like BM for you to say it did not come from BM. I have trouble believing any different....

And the clips are sloppy in my opinion. Lot of swinging focusless punches. No power from the stance or waist. How do you know that YOU are not being taken for a ride??

M




Mr. Lama Shifu,

You claim Bak Mie, we said we are not Bak Mie but you insist our Bak Fu Pai is sloppy Bak Mie. Let me ask you why you keep Private messaging to Dr. Harut? Why do you insist on calling my system Bak Mie and sloppy Bak Mie? Is this old man a threat to you ? and if so How am I a threat ? Gene Ching already lock the subject and you keep Private messaging. Do you want me to agree with you and say “ Yes kid I am a sloppy bak Mie guy that made up my system off Bak Mie? “ Does my forms make you look bad in your eyes? Are you so insecured that a young man such as yourself have to insist on nagging a old man that has one foot in the grave ? Do I know you? Have we met? No we have never met, nor do I know you, so what is the problem sir ? I have schools and so do you, do I go and run you down ? Do I harass you ? Put up a Bak Mie form on a video clip Sir, how about Gik Boe Kuen ? Or Ying Jow Sup Gee Kow Dar Kuen ? , or lung ying more kew, or sup bat more kew, or sam moon kuen, how many forms is there in Bak Mie sir ? what is the Sam Kwan Ginn sir ? these are simple questions sir, since you are a Bak Mie shifu as well, because I would like to admire your skills.

[lkfmdc]

I never even made a comment on performance, yet you attack my teacher and my lineage?

Now, I am still not being rude to you, but I've asked you several questions




Can you do your Chi Kung demonstrations in a neutral location under the eye of people who have knowledge of magic tricks?

If your Chi Kung is what you say it is, all you'd have to do is perform your Chi Kung and you'd collect one million dollars

Are you opposed to collecting one million dollars for some reason?

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION

[lkfmdc]

I never even made a comment on performance, yet you attack my teacher and my lineage?

Now, I am still not being rude to you, but I've asked you several questions


Three, do you care to comment on the law suit the Miao/Miu family brought against you that you LOST?

The law suit brought into question many of your lineage and achievement claims.

According to the records, during the trial you were either unable to prove or simply didn't respond to the claims.

Which was it? Were you unable to prove your claims? Or did you simply not respond?

If you didnt' respond, why not?

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION

[Dr.Harut]

Who is your teacher Shifu Ross?

[lkfmdc]

Funny, you seem to keep wanting to change the subject

Why can't you just answer the questions I asked? I wasn't rude, I asked you a few questions

PLEASE ANSWER THEM

[lkfmdc]

Please address the questions I asked


do you care to comment on the law suit the Miao/Miu family brought against you that you LOST?

The law suit brought into question many of your lineage and achievement claims.

According to the records, during the trial you were either unable to prove or simply didn't respond to the claims.

Which was it? Were you unable to prove your claims? Or did you simply not respond?

If you didnt' respond, why not?

[lkfmdc]

清代末叶，游方僧人金钩禅师，从四州省至广东肇庆鼎湖山庆云寺，将此拳传王隱林为了纪年其师，以金钩禅师有 “大侠李胡子”之称，遂将他传留拳技命名侠拳. 王隱林当初技成下山，曾远赴陕西省一带，隱身镖局，广结四方英豪，为的是恢复大明江山，但始终未能如愿.晚 年本落叶归根计，便返回广东. 其後在广州设馆教拳术，兼悬壶济也. 王隱林祖师武技高强，独树一帜於岭南，因而声名远播，成为广东武坛“拾虎＂之一.

Please translate the above paragraph... it has the answer to one of the other questions I asked you, what is "HOP"

I'll give you a hint, it is not "Combined"

This is very basic Chinese paragraph....

[Dr.Harut]

I never even made a comment on performance, yet you attack my teacher and my lineage?

Now, I am still not being rude to you, but I've asked you several questions



PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION

This is Grandmaster Doo Wai's reply:

The Lima questions was not directed at the African American shifu, it was directed at the guy that said sloppy Bak Mie. That African American gentleman however, the post of me being sue by a family is complete rubbish. So my comment is what law suit? Are you making this up? You guys have a good imagination

[lkfmdc]

This is Grandmaster Doo Wai's reply:

The Lima questions was not directed at the African American shifu, it was directed at the guy that said sloppy Bak Mie. That African American gentleman however, the post of me being sue by a family is complete rubbish. So my comment is what law suit? Are you making this up? You guys have a good imagination

Now I'm African American? :confused:

You're comment on Lama Pai, please learn to spell it correctly, was incorrect.

You call the family name "Mew", but it is also spelled "Miu" and in Mandarin "Miao". Are you saying you have no knowledge of the law suit?

Fine, at least that's an answer

Now, please answer the other questions.....

[lkfmdc]

Can you do your Chi Kung demonstrations in a neutral location under the eye of people who have knowledge of magic tricks?

If your Chi Kung is what you say it is, all you'd have to do is perform your Chi Kung and you'd collect one million dollars

Are you opposed to collecting one million dollars for some reason?

In case you missed the questions, I'd like you to address this one now

[lkfmdc]

Here is Grandmaster Doo Wai's post :

Here is my reply, if you are lima pai then you should be Hop Gar, (Combine family )Lima Pai, ( Lima Pai is from Tibet originally and when it reached China it is called Bak Hok White Crane ) Bak Hok, Lima, and Hop Gar is the same,



This comment shows you have no idea what you are talking about. They are not "the same".

You apparently don't know that the "Hop" in "Hop Gar" is NOT "combined"

Do you know what it actually is? I GAVE YOU THE ANSWER, but it is in Chinese.

Can you translate the paragraph or not?

[lkfmdc]

清代末叶，游方僧人金钩禅师，从四州省至广东肇庆鼎湖山庆云寺，将此拳传王隱林为了纪年其师，以金钩禅师有 “大侠李胡子”之称，遂将他传留拳技命名侠拳. 王隱林当初技成下山，曾远赴陕西省一带，隱身镖局，广结四方英豪，为的是恢复大明江山，但始终未能如愿.晚 年本落叶归根计，便返回广东. 其後在广州设馆教拳术，兼悬壶济也. 王隱林祖师武技高强，独树一帜於岭南，因而声名远播，成为广东武坛“拾虎＂之一.

You say that your knowledge comes from Kuen Po in CHINESE that you received. So I'm guessing you can read Chinese? Can you please translate this then?

It will correct your wrong statement regarding "HOP"... there, another hint.

[Dr.Harut]

Ross....you are very wrong in your assumptions...:D :D :D :D

[lkfmdc]

Is there a reason that every time I ask you a direct question, you avoid answering it?

Sifu Doo Wai can read Chinese, can't he? Then translate the paragraph

Then he can also admit he posted several very wrong statements regarding my lineage

[Reality_Check]

If they won't answer you on KFO, maybe they'll answer you here:

http://doowaibfp.forumup.org/

[lkfmdc]

Honestly, I have no need to go to THEIR forum and **** on what they do...

If you read the original thread, I was responding to a supposed CTS student who was causing problems making fake claims. If you want to argue about what CTS really did, fine, but this "person" was attributing things to CTS that he never did nor said

Along the way, my ONLY comment was that I found the production value of their DVD's "cheesey"....

For an extremely mild comment (come on, they are wearing animal skins and standing on what looks like a 70's po rn set!) they lost their minds and attacked my lineage, my self and my teacher

If you're gonna rattle my cage, I'm gonna bark

But I think that this thread (and the others) are clear enough. Asked direct questions, they balked and tried to change the subject.....

Best of luck to them, whatever they do, and to those who choose to follow them

[GeneChing]

Please recall my earlier post on Doo Wai's membership. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=717835&postcount=7) I'd welcome him to this discussion if he reapplies for membership. Unfortunately, once a membership application is deleted, I cannot reinstate it. The record is lost. But if Doo Wai reapplies and Dr.Harut confirms with me that it is indeed the Doo Wai via PM, I'm happy to approve his membership. Please understand that I deny dozens of membership applications every day. When I saw the Doo Wai application, I deleted it out of prudence, mostly because these threads have become flame wars and I was trying to minimize my need to administrate here. Yesterday it resulted in two bannings and today, I banned two more.

Dr.Harut, your response to lkfmdc's interogation has not degenerated into pie tossing :rolleyes: and I'm happy to see that. The messages you have been relaying for Doo Wai have not gone that way either. Please ask him to reapply and confirm his identity with me via PM. Given that the the axe is out and more bannings may come, I must insist on the PM confirmation, just to be safe. We don't want to ignite any more flame wars.

[Faruq]

What's everyone on this forum's obsession with "pies" recently? What is that?

[Dr.Harut]

Please recall my earlier post on Doo Wai's membership. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=717835&postcount=7) I'd welcome him to this discussion if he reapplies for membership. Unfortunately, once a membership application is deleted, I cannot reinstate it. The record is lost. But if Doo Wai reapplies and Dr.Harut confirms with me that it is indeed the Doo Wai via PM, I'm happy to approve his membership. Please understand that I deny dozens of membership applications every day. When I saw the Doo Wai application, I deleted it out of prudence, mostly because these threads have become flame wars and I was trying to minimize my need to administrate here. Yesterday it resulted in two bannings and today, I banned two more.

Dr.Harut, your response to lkfmdc's interogation has not degenerated into pie tossing :rolleyes: and I'm happy to see that. The messages you have been relaying for Doo Wai have not gone that way either. Please ask him to reapply and confirm his identity with me via PM. Given that the the axe is out and more bannings may come, I must insist on the PM confirmation, just to be safe. We don't want to ignite any more flame wars.


Thank You Gene..I will send the link of your post to Grandmaster Doo Wai.

[Dr.Harut]

yes , we have forum.

[The Xia]

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL CHARACTER FOR "HOP" in "HOP GAR" AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN.....
I know this...but I shall not interfere so my lips are sealed. It's so tempting to answer it, or even give a hint....but I won't . ;)

Also, if you don't know the answer, it's not hard to find...

Another good question for Kung Fu trivia would be why the style is named Hop Gar.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Doo Wai,

I do think your video clip is sloppy. If you want to call it bok fu pai and not bok mei, that's up to you. Personally, I don't give a crap about the shotty production or the animal skins. I'm sure no one else would either, if your technqiues looked good.

[htowndragon]

umm...have any of the questions been directly answered?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

No, they have not. :( But it is usually the way on this forum. People get called out on something, they don't answer - they misdirect. They can't answer the questions so they ask one of their own and try to change the subject.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Mr. Lama Shifu,

You claim Bak Mie, we said we are not Bak Mie but you insist our Bak Fu Pai is sloppy Bak Mie. Let me ask you why you keep Private messaging to Dr. Harut? Why do you insist on calling my system Bak Mie and sloppy Bak Mie? Is this old man a threat to you ? and if so How am I a threat ? Gene Ching already lock the subject and you keep Private messaging. Do you want me to agree with you and say “ Yes kid I am a sloppy bak Mie guy that made up my system off Bak Mie? “ Does my forms make you look bad in your eyes? Are you so insecured that a young man such as yourself have to insist on nagging a old man that has one foot in the grave ? Do I know you? Have we met? No we have never met, nor do I know you, so what is the problem sir ? I have schools and so do you, do I go and run you down ? Do I harass you ? Put up a Bak Mie form on a video clip Sir, how about Gik Boe Kuen ? Or Ying Jow Sup Gee Kow Dar Kuen ? , or lung ying more kew, or sup bat more kew, or sam moon kuen, how many forms is there in Bak Mie sir ? what is the Sam Kwan Ginn sir ? these are simple questions sir, since you are a Bak Mie shifu as well, because I would like to admire your skills.


I don't keep private messaging, I keep RESPONDING to YOUR students private messages, HARUT. And I never said YOU made up your system from Bok Mei, but it seem that YOU have said it for me.

And I don't have any interest in insulting you; I didn't talk about your character or your hygene. I did however comment on a video of you that someone posted - who in turn asked what everyone thought of it.

I'm not trying to run you down as you put it; frankly, I could care less what you do. I don't know you and most likely, we're never going to meet each other. Do I care about your opinion of my Kung-Fu? Hardly. We're not really in the same league, you and I. And that is not meant to insult you. It's just very obvious to me. If you want my reasons or opinion as to why, you merely have to ask. Just don't be shocked my reply.

And why are you mentioning forms: For someone who supposedly speaks Chinese (if this is even Doo Wai), you sure don't know how to pronounce/type Chinese words; It's not BAK MIE, It's BOK MEI. It's not Gik Boe Kune, or Ying Jow Sup Gee Kow Dar Kuen or lung ying more kew, or sup bat more kew, or sam moon kuen. Try, Jik Bouh Kuyhn, Ying Jao Sahp Jih Kau Da Kuyhn, Luhng Ying Mor Kiu, Sahp Baaht Mor Kiu, or Saam Muyhn Kuyhn. Not that I hold most people to yale, pinyin or other system spelling, but at least phonetically spell the Chinese right, or we might not think you are even Doo Wai.

Makes no difference to me, I know exactly who I am and what I can do. There's plenty of clips of me on the web, just look 'em up. And if you want to throw in your 2 cents, or a coconut, it's your right.

[Dr.Harut]

Well as I said we have forum...everyone is welcome there

[Mano Mano]

Well as I said we have forum...everyone is welcome there

I’ve seen your forum & basically the standard of discussion there is what you would call cr@p.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I too have seen the forum. It seems like the whole forum is dedicated to the destruction of Jim Lacey. And it seems like they just talk about who is better looking and then they make fun of Jim Lacey's beard, then they talk about what a fraud he is. A lot of kindergarten name calling.

:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

[B-Rad]

Yeah, I've come across it once myself... a little too obsessed with Jim Lacey. Still, what confuses me... why start up a thread on THIS froum if you're going to insist on people going to another to continue the discussion? It's pretty rude :(

[B-Rad]

So what IS the deal with the lawsuit? How'd you hear about it?

[CFT]

And why are you mentioning forms: For someone who supposedly speaks Chinese (if this is even Doo Wai), you sure don't know how to pronounce/type Chinese words; It's not BAK MIE, It's BOK MEI. It's not Gik Boe Kune, or Ying Jow Sup Gee Kow Dar Kuen or lung ying more kew, or sup bat more kew, or sam moon kuen. Try, Jik Bouh Kuyhn, Ying Jao Sahp Jih Kau Da Kuyhn, Luhng Ying Mor Kiu, Sahp Baaht Mor Kiu, or Saam Muyhn Kuyhn. Not that I hold most people to yale, pinyin or other system spelling, but at least phonetically spell the Chinese right, or we might not think you are even Doo Wai.Actually there's nothing particularly bad about about his romanization. I've seen a lot worse. At least I can work out what forms he is trying to describe.

More telling is his refusal to answer sifu Ross' question about the correct character for "Hop" in Hop Gar (which sounds more like "Hup" than "Hop" in Cantonese), which might be another hint.

And LMAO that he thinks that sifu Ross' avatar even remotely resembles his true likeness!

[TenTigers]

kuen,kuen, kyuhn, doesn't mean squat. It's PHONETIC ROMANIZATION OF A CHINESE CHARACTER. Bak, Bahk, Bok, all the same.
The bearded Lacy guy once said in an article in one of the MA mags that a guy didn't know what he was talking about because he spelled Miu Hin wrong as it was correctly spelled Mew Hing!-what a dolt. It only lost him what little credibility he had-or immagined he had.

You want to talk Gung-Fu credibility? then talk lineage,history of your style-(yeah, as if most of it wasn't made up anyway) application,structure,faht-ging (oh, did I spell that correctly?) theories, concepts,or touch hands.

However, your statement about hop still stands, and was a good point.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey, I'm not necessarily a stickler for Romanization; I do think that people should learn one of the accepted methods of spelling chinese however. But that is just my own personal thing.

And no, romanization does not make you good/bad, knowledgeable or otherwise. :)

Spelling aside, I certainly stand by my posts and my opinion of Doo Wai's form, via video clip posted at the begining of this thread. I also took a minute to lood at his site. Definatly some Bok Mei structure in his form, even some exact BM combinations, but he was running around in a ridiculous manner...it was very odd/bizarre.

[Ironman]

Lama Pai Shifu, where are your clips on the internet? :p

[Lama Pai Sifu]

All over buddy. My website, youtube, google..you name it.

[Ironman]

Oh I have seen some of your clips and I understand now why you have harassed our Grandmaster Doo Wai. I see no jing (internal force) and no flow in you movements, just mechanics. You know the moves of the forms but you missed the essence. Do you use di da in your training? If not, learn, and get the herbs to avoid getting arthritis.... Moreover, Ross, who are you to tell a Chinese person how to spell, pronounce and translate the chinese language.... geeeeeeeeeez.... Study the clips of GM Doo Wai and learn. The style is internal and not external. The movements are fast, precise and flowing with jing. I am a 14 years closed-door disciple of Grandmaster Doo Wai.

[Ironman]

This is a minor demonstration of jing.....


http://vidsearch.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=887752422

[Mano Mano]

So how are we to supposed to be able to tell from a video clip that the coconut hasn’t been pre baked, it proves that it’s been hit but doesn’t prove that there was nothing wrong with coconut before it was hit. Over the years I’ve seen loads of demo’s like that. It doesn’t matter what kind of power you generate if you can’t hit your opponent pretty wasted exercise.
Kind of reminded me of the old story of about the guy who practiced Iron palm for 20 years so he could protect his village from bandits when the fight came he got the cr@p beaten out of him because he spent that much time practicing his Iron palm he never sparred or fought anyone. Although he could actually break coconuts & such.

[lkfmdc]

Moreover, Ross, who are you to tell a Chinese person how to spell, pronounce and translate the chinese language.... geeeeeeeeeez....



Hate to break it to you but Chinese characters have definite meanings. The "Hop" in "Hop ga" is NOT "combined".... I even gave you guys the answer, but apparently you aren't up to reading a basic Chinese paragraph that a first semester student can translate...

Funny how you guys NEVER answer a direct question :rolleyes:

Oh,

Ngoh hai pin gou? Ngoh hai Chan Sai Hung, sahp luhk nin dou haak mou seut gen Chan Tai San. Yeah haak hung kuen sahp nin dou. Yi ga yaau ho dai ge mo gwoon ho yaau meng, hak saan hou dou. Neih hai pin gou?

cheers

[lkfmdc]

Here's something a kid in grade school can do

子 合 雄 洪 紅 俠 指

pick out which characters sound the same.... in cantonese

[mung foo]

I don't see any bakmei clips anywhere on the sites mentioned.

[The Xia]

What's funny is that the answer to the Hop Gar question isn't hard to look up....

[pakhok]

Hi,

I am practicing translate techniques right now :)

子 合 雄 洪 紅 俠 指 - "Sub-gathers male Hong Hongxia to refer" ???

Nice thread realy, can I try to translate previous text, just to help? :D

[pakhok]

I forghot to tell, I am from Switzerland, that mean neutral :cool:

清代末叶，游方僧人金钩禅师，从四州省至广东肇庆鼎湖山庆云寺，将此拳传王隱林为了纪年其师， 以金钩禅师有 “大侠李胡子”之称，遂将他传留拳技命名侠拳. 王隱林当初技成下山，曾远赴陕西省一带，隱身镖局，广结四方英豪，为的是恢复大明江山，但始终 未能如愿.晚 年本落叶归根计，便返回广东. 其後在广州设馆教拳术，兼悬壶济也. 王隱林祖师武技高强，独树一帜於岭南，因而声名远播，成为广东武坛“拾虎＂之一.

The Qing Dynasty end, roams the four corners of the world the Buddhist priest gold hook Zen master, from four state provinces to the Guangdong Zhaoqing Dinghu Mountain Kingyun temple, passes on this fist Wang Yinlin in order to number the years its teacher, has “the chivalrous person Li beard” by the golden hook Zen master the name, then passes on him remains the fist technique to name the variant fist. "

Little bit like broken glass but something can be used I think :D

peace :)

[lkfmdc]

Hi,

I am practicing translate techniques right now :)

子 合 雄 洪 紅 俠 指 - "Sub-gathers male Hong Hongxia to refer" ???

Nice thread realy, can I try to translate previous text, just to help? :D

Actually Pak Hok I just wanted him to note which characters sound the same in Cantonese

Hop, Hop
Hung, Hung, Hung
Jih Jih....

but, of course, they don't mean the same things!

[lkfmdc]

I forghot to tell, I am from Switzerland, that mean neutral :cool:

清代末叶，游方僧人金钩禅师，从四州省至广东肇庆鼎湖山庆云寺，将此拳传王隱林为了纪年其师， 以金钩禅师有 “大侠李胡子”之称，遂将他传留拳技命名侠拳. 王隱林当初技成下山，曾远赴陕西省一带，隱身镖局，广结四方英豪，为的是恢复大明江山，但始终 未能如愿.晚 年本落叶归根计，便返回广东. 其後在广州设馆教拳术，兼悬壶济也. 王隱林祖师武技高强，独树一帜於岭南，因而声名远播，成为广东武坛“拾虎＂之一.

The Qing Dynasty end, roams the four corners of the world the Buddhist priest gold hook Zen master, from four state provinces to the Guangdong Zhaoqing Dinghu Mountain Kingyun temple, passes on this fist Wang Yinlin in order to number the years its teacher, has “the chivalrous person Li beard” by the golden hook Zen master the name, then passes on him remains the fist technique to name the variant fist. "

Little bit like broken glass but something can be used I think :D

peace :)

yeah missed a few points :p but a pretty good job, and NOT hard to do and the answer to "Hop" is in there also .....

[The Xia]

Alright, I think I gave sufficient time for a response. Does anyone mind if I post the answer?

[lkfmdc]

Alright, I think I gave sufficient time for a response. Does anyone mind if I post the answer?


I think it's obvious they don't answer direct questions, and Pak Hok let the crane out of the cave :D .....

[lkfmdc]

NO one could really confuse these two terms

合拳

侠拳

They are NOT the same!

[The Xia]

pakhok did the work. All it takes is an educated eye to spot the answer. If that's too hard, all you have to do is use an internet search. That's what's so funny about this, even if you don't know the answer you can pretend you do.

[lkfmdc]

you know, us dumb white people (or am I african american?) can't possibly know Chinese and so high masters need not stoop down to answer our questions... either that or they don't really know :eek:

[GeneChing]

The answer certainly isn't secret. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661) But not knowing the answer has minimal impact on the validity of anyone's style. Even a small amount of research into the history of martial arts will reveal a preponderance of misspellings. Many martial artists were illiterate. Some still are. It's not at all uncommon for the wrong character to be used within a deviant branch of any given lineage. Such errors are perpetuated to the point that they may even become standardized and create their own style. I touched on this issue in The Confusing Tracks of the Fist of Fury: Huo Yuan Jia's Style of Mizong Quan in our Sep Oct 2006 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=671). It's one of the many factors that makes CMA research challenging. Even if Doo Wai's lineage uses the wrong character, that doesn't necessarily invalidate his claims. It could mean that his ancestor just wasn't educated and he hasn't bothered to follow up on it. He wouldnt be the only one.

I used to have this Tamo shirt from Shaolin Temple, one of those tourist hand-painted ones, where the characters for Tamo were incorrect. They were correct phonetically. The poor peasant who painted that shirt obviously didn't know. Hell, I didn't know until someone pointed it out to me. After that, it became one of my favorite shirts.

[lkfmdc]

Gene

With all due respect, I think you missed my point. Doo Wai, assuming it is really him, comes on here PRESUMING to lecture me on my own lineage. And the answer was, he was clearly wrong

1. Hop Ga is NOT "combined family"

2. I don't do Hop Ga

3. Hop Ga, Lama Pai and Pak Hok are not "the same"

4. Ng YIM Ming was A grandmaster NOT "the" grandmaster

5. oh, and I'm not as far as I am aware, African American :D

[lkfmdc]

by the way Gene, the David Chin article was great ;)

[The Xia]

by the way Gene, the David Chin article was great ;)
I second that. I'll also add that lkfmdc wrote a great piece on the Lion's Roar arts that explains how the three groups (Lama, Pak Hok, and Hop Gar) came about.
It's right here.
Lion's Roar 101 - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/9358/tibetan.html

[CFT]

Whilst it may be true that a particular lineage may employ a different character to represent their style name, they should be educated enough about other arts in their wider lineage to know that the "hop" in "hop gar" means chivalry/knight rather than combined.

[Firehand]

I watched the clips of Doo Wai and Parella....now that Parella says Doo Wai's kung fu is sloppy Pak Mei...then I wish Parella puts some real Pak Mei clips on youtube...I know many on youtube will enjoy because there isn't too much Pak Mei clips....as for Doo Wai's clips apparently he is very high in his skills...I hope to see more.

As for the Chinese language who pronounces right....as far as I have heard, there are many dialects in Chinese language, I will not comment more about the language because I don't know Chinese.

Ross...you are white...I saw your site.

If Doo Wai's ancestors were not educated....I went to their site...they say Doo Family were imperial physiciains during Tang Dynasty....would emperors allow uneducated people to be their physicians?...I don't know..may be yes and may be no

Now lets return to kung fu.

We are martial artists....I don't know Doo Wai nor I know Parella....I hope from now on anyone who criticizes a style publicly then has to have the dignity to prove it by clips...and we will enjoy them on youtube.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Wow, it seems like a few Doo Wai fans have recently joined the forum here. It's easy to find them, they have only a few posts and they are only on the Doo Wai threads. :confused: :rolleyes: ;)

OH, and watch me now; I'm going to run over to my school today and video myself so I can show these Doo Wai guys..... - Hardly.

I'm not interested what Doo Wai or his people think of me. If they feel the need to defend their style/teacher against my opinions of the video clips posted, so be it.

Do I care what you Doo Wai guys think of me? again...Hardly. And besides, I'm sure I could post the best video clip in KF history, and you people (Doo Wai People) would bash it incessently. Your just sore about my criticism.

But maybe my criticism is not the first you've heard. After doing a little bit of reading, it seems like you guys have been under fire on several boards and for quite a long time. Hmmm, maybe something to think about. If many many people, over many many years, say the same derogatory things about your kung-fu (or your teachers)..hhmmm, maybe there is something to it.

No one wants to think that what they have learned is poor or low quality. That's why you never hear anyone say: "My teacher was not very good, but he was a good person and did his best to teach me." Everyone we ever hear about is either a 'top disciple', 'had connections to a royal family', 'trained the military', 'killed lots of people', 'was a secret closed-door disciple', 'was one of only a few to learn this rare art', blah blah blah. Where are all the mediocre teachers and practitioneres? How can it be that everyone was such an expert? Didn't anyone suck? I've met plenty of people who's KF sucked...they just didn't know it or admit it. I've been to China several times; I saw lots of people, both in Hong Kong and the Mainland, who's KF sucked. I guess everyone MAGICALLY gets better once the cross the ocean.

It's just like TKD; The joke amongst the Korean community is; they board the plane as a 1st Degree Black belt, as they leave Asia, it's 2nd degree, then as the cross the ocean, it's 3rd degree, and as they deplane, it's 4th degree, customs earns them a 5th degree and by the time they find a place to live and open a school, it's 7th degree or better. :eek:

I think Chinese people work the same way. They learn a bit of stuff while in China, they come here as young men, even teenages, they teach westerners for 25 years, then they are in their 40's maybe 50's and are seasoned teachers. It happened all over NY's Chinatown, and I'm sure all over the country.

"BUT WAIT! NOT MY TEACHER! IT COULDN'T BE! HE'S SO GOOD! HE TOLD ME OUR KF WAS SPECIAL AND HE TOLD ME WHAT A GREAT TEACHER HE WAS. I SHOULD KNOW; I STUDIED WITH A KARATE GUY WHEN I WAS 8, AND THEN MET MY TEACHER WHEN I WAS 22 - OF COURSE I CAN TELL GOOD KF FROM BAD KF!"

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I watched the clips of Doo Wai and Parella....now that Parella says Doo Wai's kung fu is sloppy Pak Mei...then I wish Parella puts some real Pak Mei clips on youtube...I know many on youtube will enjoy because there isn't too much Pak Mei clips....as for Doo Wai's clips apparently he is very high in his skills...I hope to see more.

As for the Chinese language who pronounces right....as far as I have heard, there are many dialects in Chinese language, I will not comment more about the language because I don't know Chinese.

Ross...you are white...I saw your site.

If Doo Wai's ancestors were not educated....I went to their site...they say Doo Family were imperial physiciains during Tang Dynasty....would emperors allow uneducated people to be their physicians?...I don't know..may be yes and may be no

Now lets return to kung fu.

We are martial artists....I don't know Doo Wai nor I know Parella....I hope from now on anyone who criticizes a style publicly then has to have the dignity to prove it by clips...and we will enjoy them on youtube.


Who says that they were Imperial Physicians during the Tang Dynasty? Doo Wai? Please,....

And you are not a Doo Wai person? You only just posted on this forum for the first time in the middle of this thread? A bit transparent buddy....

And since you claim not to know Chinese, why comment at all?

The reference to the Chinese is because - NO ONE BELIEVES THAT IT IS EVEN DOO WAI WHO IS RELAYING THESE MESSAGES. That's why the posters can't comment on the Chinese, even through they say that these posts are coming from Doo Wai himself.

Very sad.

AND THANKS FOR LETTING DAVE ROSS KNOW HE IS WHITE. SUPERIOR 'SLEUTHING' ON YOUR PART. BUT YOU ARE VERY VERY WRONG -

Dave Ross isn't white: He's Super-White. He's immune to tanning of any form and as a result of this, he had a fight with the sun. It ended in a draw, so he agreed not to get in the sun's way and the sun agreed not to shine it's lovingingly-warm rays upon his milky white skin. There I said it. I don't care who knows - Dave's secret is out. He couldn't even beat the sun, how pathetic - it's only like 180,000 times the size of the earth...and he still couldn't win. I am repulsed by the fact that we have slept in the same room on many many occasions.

But THAT is a story for another time....

[CFT]

If Doo Wai's ancestors were not educated....I went to their site...they say Doo Family were imperial physiciains during Tang Dynasty....would emperors allow uneducated people to be their physicians?...I don't know..may be yes and may be noHell no!!! The Son of Heaven treated medically by an illiterate peasant? Not possible period. More than likely he would have needed to pass Imperial exams before even being part of the Imperial medical staff, let alone the Emperor's personal physician.

Just like modern medics the physicians of Imperial China would have needed to be literature to learn from the classical medical texts. He would also need to be literate to write prescriptions for the Imperial pharmacy to make up.

So assuming that Doo Wai continued in his family's learning tradition, I would expect that he is fluent in Chinese and informed about Chinese martial arts in general. If he knows about the connection between Lama Paai and Hop Gar then he should know the correct Chinese character for "hop".

[Ironman]

Hell no!!! The Son of Heaven treated medically by an illiterate peasant? Not possible period. More than likely he would have needed to pass Imperial exams before even being part of the Imperial medical staff, let alone the Emperor's personal physician.

Just like modern medics the physicians of Imperial China would have needed to be literature to learn from the classical medical texts. He would also need to be literate to write prescriptions for the Imperial pharmacy to make up.

So assuming that Doo Wai continued in his family's learning tradition, I would expect that he is fluent in Chinese and informed about Chinese martial arts in general. If he knows about the connection between Lama Paai and Hop Gar then he should know the correct Chinese character for "hop".

He does....:)

[Ironman]

Wow, it seems like a few Doo Wai fans have recently joined the forum here. It's easy to find them, they have only a few posts and they are only on the Doo Wai threads. :confused: :rolleyes: ;)

OH, and watch me now; I'm going to run over to my school today and video myself so I can show these Doo Wai guys..... - Hardly.

I'm not interested what Doo Wai or his people think of me. If they feel the need to defend their style/teacher against my opinions of the video clips posted, so be it.

Do I care what you Doo Wai guys think of me? again...Hardly. And besides, I'm sure I could post the best video clip in KF history, and you people (Doo Wai People) would bash it incessently. Your just sore about my criticism.

But maybe my criticism is not the first you've heard. After doing a little bit of reading, it seems like you guys have been under fire on several boards and for quite a long time. Hmmm, maybe something to think about. If many many people, over many many years, say the same derogatory things about your kung-fu (or your teachers)..hhmmm, maybe there is something to it.

No one wants to think that what they have learned is poor or low quality. That's why you never hear anyone say: "My teacher was not very good, but he was a good person and did his best to teach me." Everyone we ever hear about is either a 'top disciple', 'had connections to a royal family', 'trained the military', 'killed lots of people', 'was a secret closed-door disciple', 'was one of only a few to learn this rare art', blah blah blah. Where are all the mediocre teachers and practitioneres? How can it be that everyone was such an expert? Didn't anyone suck? I've met plenty of people who's KF sucked...they just didn't know it or admit it. I've been to China several times; I saw lots of people, both in Hong Kong and the Mainland, who's KF sucked. I guess everyone MAGICALLY gets better once the cross the ocean.

It's just like TKD; The joke amongst the Korean community is; they board the plane as a 1st Degree Black belt, as they leave Asia, it's 2nd degree, then as the cross the ocean, it's 3rd degree, and as they deplane, it's 4th degree, customs earns them a 5th degree and by the time they find a place to live and open a school, it's 7th degree or better. :eek:

I think Chinese people work the same way. They learn a bit of stuff while in China, they come here as young men, even teenages, they teach westerners for 25 years, then they are in their 40's maybe 50's and are seasoned teachers. It happened all over NY's Chinatown, and I'm sure all over the country.

"BUT WAIT! NOT MY TEACHER! IT COULDN'T BE! HE'S SO GOOD! HE TOLD ME OUR KF WAS SPECIAL AND HE TOLD ME WHAT A GREAT TEACHER HE WAS. I SHOULD KNOW; I STUDIED WITH A KARATE GUY WHEN I WAS 8, AND THEN MET MY TEACHER WHEN I WAS 22 - OF COURSE I CAN TELL GOOD KF FROM BAD KF!"


Yes, I agree with some of your points.... Our motto is: "The proof is in the results" and Buddy we get results in White Tiger Gung Fu and Qigong ....

[Firehand]

Hell no!!! The Son of Heaven treated medically by an illiterate peasant? Not possible period. More than likely he would have needed to pass Imperial exams before even being part of the Imperial medical staff, let alone the Emperor's personal physician.

Just like modern medics the physicians of Imperial China would have needed to be literature to learn from the classical medical texts. He would also need to be literate to write prescriptions for the Imperial pharmacy to make up.

So assuming that Doo Wai continued in his family's learning tradition, I would expect that he is fluent in Chinese and informed about Chinese martial arts in general. If he knows about the connection between Lama Paai and Hop Gar then he should know the correct Chinese character for "hop".


I went to the site whitetigerkungfu.com and saw Doo Wai's photos with the celebrities..asked myself would the celebrities be a friend with an uneducated and illiterate person?...of course NO.

Plus I read Doo wai's blog on his myspace page...I liked it.

I think he is ignoring your questions...he doesn't need to prove himself here....he has proven himself to the world already.

Anyway...as I said above...it would much credible and better if anyone who has something to say about a system or style..better him to prove by clips and we will watch on youtube

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yes, I agree with some of your points.... Our motto is: "The proof is in the results" and Buddy we get results in White Tiger Gung Fu and Qigong ....

And what 'results' might you be getting? And how do you 'measure' these results?

It is obvious that you enjoy your training..and good for you! If you are happy, stick with it.

If you don't like to see your teacher criticized, don't let him post video clips.

[lkfmdc]

Ross...you are white...

I saw your site.




I'm confused. The grandmaster said I was African American, how you say I'm white? What shall I do?

[pakhok]

Hi,

I tryed to help and I hope I am still neutral :cool: can anyone help me now to see that video clip? where is it?

I just read this thread and find him very interesting, please continue gentlemans, it is lot of energy here, don't be interrupted by my side :)

Mr. Ross, are you suggested me to not translate anymore?
I know my foreign languages are disaster , but I am sure if I write on my language nobody will understand :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxk5Wq-6F_Q

Like this jump I jumped last year. Since than I competited with frogs only, much more safe :)

peace

[lkfmdc]

Pak Hok, I have no trouble with your translations, other than it let's them off the hook, but they didn't look like they were going to answer any way

[GeneChing]

lkfmdc & The Xia: Thanks for the props on that David Chin piece. I really only play Devil's advocate when I can shamelessly self promote my work in the process. The more that I think about it, the more it bothers me that none of the Doo Wai people had read it. But hey, what can you say? I say this to the Doo Wai camp - subscribe! (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html)

Carry on, gentleman. ;)

[The Xia]

What is this obsession with making posts about lkfmdc's race? First, someone mentioned an African American sifu. I think that poster was referring to lkfmdc but I'm not sure. Now, someone pointed out that he is White. I say this, who cares what he is. That has nothing to do with this discussion. What are you implying by bringing up his race? Are you implying that his race discredits his arguments?

[pakhok]

lkfmdc thanks, I wouldn't like to interrupt anything or anybody's mood.
My primary love is Pak Hok, Lama Pai and Hop Ga - Tibetan schools, but generaly I beleive in Wu Lin I Jia and respect all good people I met in MA world.


peace :)

[planetwc]

Doo Wai was looking at the avatar for Ross Sifu and presumed that was an ACTUAL photo of him. :eek:

[CLFLPstudent]

Pak Hok - is that YouTube video real? Holy !!! That is too funny!!!
-David

[Firehand]

Well, I liked Doo Wai's clips very much...and I think its not a sin to admire those clips.

if anyone interested here is the link for all the clips of Doo Wai posted on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Bak+Fu+Pai&search=Search

I wish I get a chance to start learning this system. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Firehand,

Isn't it strange, that you only popped up here when the Doo Wai thread started? You post as if you are a fan, but never met Doo Wai and don't study his style. So, what style do you study/train in?

You profile is completely devoid of any info at all.

An educated and experienced guess - you are a Doo Wai constituant, trying to save him some face. You will obviously deny this fact as it would be counter-productive to your cause!

The Evil Tyranny that is deceiving the public with this breaking nonesense. Most people don't have the balls to call others on they sh1t; and I wouldn't bother and leave well enough alone, but when you post clips on the net and profess magical chi-nonesense, I refuse to hold my tongue.

This is the sensless dribble that gives Kung-Fu a bad name and dissillusions practioners to practice nonsensical made up arts. My opinion of Doo Wai after seeing his clips and reading his forum and website; He has learned some martial arts - he's not makeing up moves, but his skill is far from high - he is sloppy, unfocused and with no intent. Not to mention, this scammy coconut crap and magical Chi, fabricated past. No one outside of Doo Wai or his students has even heard of this style. I believe this guy is a flat out scammer and I believe all scammers should be exposed.

I have been running schools, full-time in NY, for over 16 years. I put all my heart, sweat, blood and tears into my schools. I do my best to train my students and help them to become the best they can be. I HATE when I see people getting ripped off and learning stuff that is phoney-baloney.

I can understand that everyone is not at the same skill level, and there will be teachers who are good, and those who are not. Acceptable. But when you lie to the public about what you teach, or you misrepresnt yourself to the public or your students as something you are not, then you should very well be called on it.

[Firehand]

Now you are offending me Parella...

I will ask everyone here...should I consider myself "popped up suddenly"? I was always reading this forum as a guest....and when met this thread, went and watched the clips and tried to search everything on Doo Wai and his art....yes I like to learn an internal art and I never saw around me a person with the skills this man has

Parella, I don't want to offend you, I watched your clips and went to your site too. I think you are very much worried that you are much much younger than Doo Wai and even don't have his half speed, not mentioning his foreram and shin, and even you don't know herbology...otherwise I would have seen some herbal knowledge on your site as I read on his blog.

Well, I will contact Doo wai himself on his forum, and will tell his people that "hey people am saving your face overthere" and I will PM his people here.

Again am repeating, I don't want to offend anyone.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Now you are offending me Parella...

I will ask everyone here...should I consider myself "popped up suddenly"? I was always reading this forum as a guest....and when met this thread, went and watched the clips and tried to search everything on Doo Wai and his art....yes I like to learn an internal art and I never saw around me a person with the skills this man has

Parella, I don't want to offend you, I watched your clips and went to your site too. I think you are very much worried that you are much much younger than Doo Wai and even don't have his half speed, not mentioning his foreram and shin, and even you don't know herbology...otherwise I would have seen some herbal knowledge on your site as I read on his blog.

Well, I will contact Doo wai himself on his forum, and will tell his people that "hey people am saving your face overthere" and I will PM his people here.

Again am repeating, I don't want to offend anyone.

What country are you from? It is definatly not the US.

"his half speed, not mentioning his foreram and shin, and even you don't know herbology...otherwise I would have seen some herbal knowledge on your site as I read on his blog."

Are you for real? Or like 15 years old? Or..maybe Dr. Hargut???? Hmmm

Speed and forearm and shins? Buddy, you are funny. If you want to have your little teacher contact me instead of his lackeys, then go right ahead. Your veil of deceiption is pretty thin....

But you are right about one thing; I don't know much about Chinese herbs, which of course you can tell, as you said, because I don't mention it on my site. I don't mention how much I enjoy reading horror stories on my site either, so I guess I must not be good at that as well. Superior logic on your part. Where were you when Sherlock homes picked Watson? He could have used your keen intellect.

My teacher was one of the directors of the Chinese Herbal Medical Association in NYC. He was a good doctor and although I wasn't interested in learning much about medicine, he gave me all the formulas I would need for training. I can take a prescription and give it to the herb shop and make the medicine. That's about it. But remember, I haven't questioned Doo's medicine, just his martial arts skill.

However, I haven't seen any associations (people who are also doctors confirming ones credibility) that Doo is associated with. I would think that all Chinese doctors belong to a Chinese Association. Which one(s) is Doo associated with? And does he even have license to practice medicine? And don't tell me he was here practicing for X amount of years and doesn't need one. I'll check with the state and find out if he's licensed an get back to you and everyone here. :)

And as far as you go, what's your name? Who did you train with? What style(s)? How long? Since I don't have YOUR website address, it's kind of hard accepting info from an anonymous screen name. You lack any credibility whatsoever. Either put up or shut up.

[pakhok]

Pak Hok - is that YouTube video real? Holy !!! That is too funny!!!
-David

Yes footage is real like amazing :D , when poor and lucky guy jumped from the board, board unlocked and catapulted him right on the judges table LOL
With one jump he beated HK movie production, now they can forghet flying and other effects LOLOL :D

[Firehand]

Now you are trying to say am that Dr who started this thread?

I just PM-ed him. And am registering on their forum as well.

Come to Florida and lets meet friendly ...may be than you'll believe.

I don't have a site and will not have a site..am just a person who likes Martial arts and has learned some martial arts..but am not full time martial artist.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Now you are trying to say am that Dr who started this thread?

I just PM-ed him. And am registering on their forum as well.

Come to Florida and lets meet friendly ...may be than you'll believe.

I don't have a site and will not have a site..am just a person who likes Martial arts and has learned some martial arts..but am not full time martial artist.

What would I be coming to Florida for? What exactly will I believe? That you are an actual person, whom I have never met? And where in Florida exactly am I supposed to go?? Gonna meet me at the airport and take me to tea, to share all about the martial arts you HAVEN'T studied?? Uh, yeah.

Since you're not a full-time MA as you say, maybe you should really qualify yourself against the expert opinion of actual full-time MA? That is a polite way of saying 'know your place' young padawan.

[Firehand]

Whatever...

I already contacted them and am waiting their reply on their forum and here too.

Parella...with respect, no offends, I can not count your so nervous and angry attitude as expert martial artist. I will follow my own instincts...I saw some clips I liked them and I am trying to get a chance to start learning.

[lkfmdc]

The fundamental flaw of the internet

"everyone has a right to an opinion"

DOES NOT EQUAL

"all opinions are equal"

But more curiously, you want to have YOUR right to an opinion but when Lama Pai Sifu voices his opinion on the clips, not only did they attack him, they attacked his style, his lineage and his sifu.... only to demonstrate in their attacks that they don't know much about any of the above :rolleyes:

[MAC]

How many of you nay-sayers have personally met Doo Wai - or any of his students ? How many of you have personally spoken to any of them ? Have you touched hands ? Played with them at all ? Have you had any “real” conversations with any of them ?

I don’t know any of you so it makes me wonder …. who the he// are you to question anybody else ? I don’t know that you have any more or less legitimacy than you claim these folks to have. What credentials do you have that make you believe you are in a position to conduct yourselves in this manner ? You think you have some kind of right to call people down ? You think somehow you have some kind of responsibility ? What do you think gives you this right ? Do you have some kind of certification that proves you are who you claim to be - and as good as you try to portray you are on these forums ? I can view a web site or watch a video clip like anybody else. I can consider developing an opinion, just like anybody else - but that doesn’t give me the right to actually think I can judge them and certainly not to attempt to discredit, belittle or demean them. Some of you speak in a condescending fashion, exhibiting how highly you think of yourself, but how many others see you in this same position ? I certainly don’t but perhaps that’s because I don’t know you any more than you know me --- or any more than you seem to know the people you are treating in this manner.

You don’t know me and I don’t know you – so that can be interpreted as you are in no different position than I am to “judge” any one. AFTER you go personally talk to Doo Wai and AFTER you go touch hands with him --- THEN I can give some cause to put legitimacy into whatever opinion you may come away with. But unlike some of the mindless here --- your opinion does not automatically become my opinion.

Spend more time on your own art, your own practice and training. I find it difficult to see how much training some of you can have time for when your forum posting activity is so high.


Leave the forums for solid discussions. Varying opinions should be fine but opinions and perspectives can be communicated in a manner that is conducive to positive exchanges of ideas, principles positions. When all one wants to do is attempt to belittle or discredit someone else it seriously diminishes, not just yourselves, but also the integrity of the forum as a whole.

I found some of this humorous but some of you folks are relentless. It begins to look like something that would better be utilized as a psychological study. Think about it.

What say you get back to what you actually “know” and perhaps indicate how your style(s) differ from what you think you see (note that I didn’t say how they are better or worse - just how they differ).

On a side note – I watched some of the YouTube clips of Doo Wai. An observation : most are taken inside this small hall some have referred to. There is one, however, that looks to be older. This clip of when Doo Wai was younger is taken in a large open area. This clip demonstrates a lot more footwork and movement than the other clips taken in a physically restrictive area.

[nyhakka]

I believe that one never knows what one has until they touch hands....so until that happens it's best to keep opinion open minded. but the forum is for stating one's opinion..you can't have it both ways. If an opinion is viewed as disrespectful, that goes both ways as well. So be mindful and tactful.

[MAC]

Yes. Thank you. That's another way of conveying this sentament : "Varying opinions should be fine but opinions and perspectives can be communicated in a manner that is conducive to positive exchanges of ideas, principles positions".
All I really want to do is get the communications (back) on track of productive dialogues. There is certainly enough diversity and experience here to make such dialogues of significant value.

[lkfmdc]

Well then, perhaps in that light you'd like to comment on this fact




My thoughs, on BFP, was that the tape I saw was "cheesey" like it was filmed in someone's living room and they were wearing souvenier (sp?) stand fake Chinese clothing, maybe it's the wrong tape I am thinking about



That statement resulted in Doo Wai (if you believe it is him) attacking myself, my teacher, my system and my lineage :rolleyes:

[MAC]

mmmm, no. I have nothing to comment on relative to those specific remarks. Thank you.

[Firehand]

I read the whole thread again and am not seeing any attack on your lineage

[nyhakka]

I read the entire thread, and I didn't see an insult to your lineage or sifu either, but perhaps you took something the wrong way, which is typical of the internet. but i'd suggest that although I agree that their "stuff" seems a bit suspect, it's best not to pass judgement based on clips and parlor tricks alone. I mean dems are just demos and may not represent the actuality of the school's art. I remember your sifu and yourselves mostly demo'd the spear and slab breaking. should one use these demos as representation of your kung fu? I certantly don't think so. The only way to do that would be to either join your class or touch your hands. There's no in between. ;)

[Fu-Pow]

I saw Bak Fu Pai clips , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGhG4nkpiqA&mode=related&search=

Is this White Tiger skin real???
Does it mean that I must find White Crane to kill and bring in to my room where I practiced little bit? That gradious bird :) I don't think so. If I could I will protect all animals from people.
Tiger is one of the grandious animals, I am realy sorry for that animal hanging on the wall while somebody practicing MA style called by her own name !!! In my country we call that a PARADOX.




peace

That video is really funny. You can tell by how tight he holds his neck and shoulders that no power can get through. Also, there is no coordination between eyes, body and hands. Its like his body is doing one thing and while his eyes and hands are doing something totally different.

Compare with this Sifu who has whole body coordination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccUjuaGTllQ

(BTW, isn't youtube cool!)

[stainlesschi]

as the guy posted above me said the Bak Fu Pai clips , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGhG4...elated&search= do look rushed and pretty **** pish compared to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccUjuaGTllQ
,,,now that guy looks **** good you can see the power and it is as quick as the bak fu pai clip if not quicker and doesnt look rushed...big big difference...the bak fu pai guy looks nothing like the second dude in terms of power and quality...

[MAC]

Pakhok - I think I'm ready for you. I have competed with the froggies too. I tried to move to bigger competition - but ended up having to run for my life so much ... I developed better skills. Now I can still take on the froggies - also the squirrels -- maybe I'm ready for YOU - here's MY video :

http://www.zippyvideos.com/7216273006182086/extremejumpers/

[Faruq]

Busy thread.

[GeneChing]

It's not? Oh. Sorry Dave. :o

[cjurakpt]

some of you are saying that the only way to truly "know" a teacher's skill is by touching hands with him;

on one level, I agree - there is a level of information that can only come from hands on contact;

however, there is a caveat to this, which is that having had some experience in MA, after a while one is able to correlate visual performance to hands-on skill to some degree: when you've touched hands with a lot of people, and then you see how they do their forms, you begin to establish a correlation between visual information and tactile information; eventually, you can start to extrapolate from the visual with a pretty good degree of accuracy; to wit, if someone is doing a form that displays poor mechanics, poor timing, etc., you can reasonably extrapolate as to the level of their hands on skill: no one is going to lack these things visually and then turn around and be awesome "hands on" - it just doesn't work that way...(BTW, this doesn't work the other way around though: someone can have excellent form, like a top level wushu guy, but it doesn't mean his fighting skill is any good necessarilly);

but here's my real problem with all you guys defending Doo Wai via his clips: you guys want to have your cake and eat it too: what I mean is that, if someone saw the clips and said "wow, from the looks of those clips, he must be an awesome fighter!" you wouldn't jump in and say "oh no, you can't say that - you have to touch hands with him first before you can say that"; somehow, I suspect that this would not be the case...

furthermore, if I am not mistaken, the whole point of Doo Wai posting those clips in the first place is to impress people visually: I mean, he's not posting them because he thinks they are bad clips; he's posting them because he thinks that people will see them, be impressed by them and then study his system as a result; so he is in fact asking people to make a judgement based on only the visual information; and again, as long as the opinion is a positive one, no one is jumping up and disabusing the viewer of their perspective; of course, as soon as someone makes some reasonable critique of the clips, that is, they don't just say "he loks" bad, but actually provide specifics as to why they think the form is lacking, you all jump in with your default "you have to touch hands to know for sure" argument...

you guys need to be a little more internally consistent with your arguments...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Well said.

[Faruq]

I was going to say I love the Jik Bo Kuen clip. If you guys think that's great, you should go the NZ martial arts website and see the clip of him doing Nine step push.

[nyhakka]

Well I can only speak for myself, and as I earlier stated I too am not impressed with the clips. But I'm only looking to keep the discussion what it should be a critique. I was not speaking to Sifu Ross or to Doo Wai's people, but to all and in general and including myself. I think this is a very important thread and i'd hate for it to lose focus of the main issues, like Sifu Ross's comments were not addressed and I'd like to see them answered.

I also do believe that in Martial Arts there are no absolutes, so one can have terrible forms and still have great understanding of the principles, nature and character of their respective style. It was said that the Buck Sing Sijo didn't particularly care for fomrs but was an outstanding fighter.

[Ironman]

as the guy posted above me said the Bak Fu Pai clips , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGhG4...elated&search= do look rushed and pretty **** pish compared to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccUjuaGTllQ
,,,now that guy looks **** good you can see the power and it is as quick as the bak fu pai clip if not quicker and doesnt look rushed...big big difference...the bak fu pai guy looks nothing like the second dude in terms of power and quality...

This thread is hilarious.... GM Doo Wai is doing a high level complex form and the other master is doing a low level basic form....geez.... If you can study the clips closely, you will see the similarities in both masters movements. There is no wasted movements in GM Doo Wai forms.....But I guess you guys aren't use to seeing high level southern gung fu.... Plus GM Doo Wai shoulders and neck are not tense.... Again you guys are funny.... Now if you guys want to talk about the issues raised by MAC I am all for it....I do believe in sharing with my fellow martial artists and practitioners. GM Doo Wai has taught us to respect all forms and styles of martial arts....

[Ironman]

Hey cjurakpt, what the heck are you talking about, dude? I know GM Doo Wai personally and have studied under him for 14 years. His martial arts and dit da healing information was handed down from father to son in his family for over six generations. He is a great fighter and chi kung healer. Unfortunately, it appears from reading these comments here, some of you have not had a similar opportunity. I originally studied Karate at age 13 and achieved the rank of first degree black belt at age 18. I was strong and fast. Now I am relaxed and fast. At the age of 24, I thought I needed knee replacement surgery. I met GM Doo Wai and he sold me some dit da jow and other other internal herbal stuff and within four months my knees recovered from years of improper training. I was the biggest skeptic in the world regarding internal gung fu and jing etc. Now if you guys want to talk about gung fu skills and internal stuff lets talk but if you want take cheap shots we will respond....I would expect you guys would likewise respond if your shifus were being attacked whether they were alive or deceased....[/

[Ironman]

We are Bak Fu Pai (white tiger kung fu). We are not Bak Mie (white eyebrow kung fu) and it is a BIG INSULT to us to call us Bak Mie. We respect all Bak Mie practitioners and we think Bak Mie is a good kung fu system.

[DoPi]

Qoute "No one outside of Doo Wai or his students has even heard of this style. I believe this guy is a flat out scammer and I believe all scammers should be exposed"

In the category of the higher low systems are found four different tiger subsystems: hong tiger, s'hu tiger, imperial tiger and white tiger. They are placed above the previous systems because ch'i and some concepts of spiritual motion have been incorporated into them. Hong tiger was a system which evolved from a mixture of tiger and white dragon. It was used by palace guards especially against weapons. S'hu tiger was the weapons training that went with the unarmed system of hong tiger. Imperial tiger is a modern adaptation of hong tiger. The techniques are sophisticated at this level. Also contained in the band of high low systems is monkey, placed there because of its liberal use of parries and advanced striking techniques, taking it out of the realm of brute strength. White tiger is a highly sophisticated, forbidden style similar to snow tiger.

Found here :http://www.shaolin.com/styles_shaolin.aspx

[Yum Cha]

This thread is hilarious.... GM Doo Wai is doing a high level complex form and the other master is doing a low level basic form....geez.... If you can study the clips closely, you will see the similarities in both masters movements. There is no wasted movements in GM Doo Wai forms.....But I guess you guys aren't use to seeing high level southern gung fu.... Plus GM Doo Wai shoulders and neck are not tense.... Again you guys are funny.... Now if you guys want to talk about the issues raised by MAC I am all for it....I do believe in sharing with my fellow martial artists and practitioners. GM Doo Wai has taught us to respect all forms and styles of martial arts....

Pssssst. I got this bridge I'm selling, real cheap.....only $30,000 for the complete, documented ownership. Only I can sell it though, its been in my family for 7 generations, simply forward your check and I'll get you the title.

Oh, and would you like some Jau with that?? Upsize it?

[Ironman]

Pssssst. I got this bridge I'm selling, real cheap.....only $30,000 for the complete, documented ownership. Only I can sell it though, its been in my family for 7 generations, simply forward your check and I'll get you the title.

Oh, and would you like some Jau with that?? Upsize it?

thanks but no thanks....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Nah

[Ironman]

Qoute "No one outside of Doo Wai or his students has even heard of this style. I believe this guy is a flat out scammer and I believe all scammers should be exposed"

In the category of the higher low systems are found four different tiger subsystems: hong tiger, s'hu tiger, imperial tiger and white tiger. They are placed above the previous systems because ch'i and some concepts of spiritual motion have been incorporated into them. Hong tiger was a system which evolved from a mixture of tiger and white dragon. It was used by palace guards especially against weapons. S'hu tiger was the weapons training that went with the unarmed system of hong tiger. Imperial tiger is a modern adaptation of hong tiger. The techniques are sophisticated at this level. Also contained in the band of high low systems is monkey, placed there because of its liberal use of parries and advanced striking techniques, taking it out of the realm of brute strength. White tiger is a highly sophisticated, forbidden style similar to snow tiger.

Found here :http://www.shaolin.com/styles_shaolin.aspx

the proof is in the results....this is the U.S. and we make choices for ourselves. Just because you have not heard of the system does not mean it is not real.... But then again you may holy and all knowing....

[nyhakka]

Qoute "No one outside of Doo Wai or his students has even heard of this style. I believe this guy is a flat out scammer and I believe all scammers should be exposed"

In the category of the higher low systems are found four different tiger subsystems: hong tiger, s'hu tiger, imperial tiger and white tiger. They are placed above the previous systems because ch'i and some concepts of spiritual motion have been incorporated into them. Hong tiger was a system which evolved from a mixture of tiger and white dragon. It was used by palace guards especially against weapons. S'hu tiger was the weapons training that went with the unarmed system of hong tiger. Imperial tiger is a modern adaptation of hong tiger. The techniques are sophisticated at this level. Also contained in the band of high low systems is monkey, placed there because of its liberal use of parries and advanced striking techniques, taking it out of the realm of brute strength. White tiger is a highly sophisticated, forbidden style similar to snow tiger.

Found here :http://www.shaolin.com/styles_shaolin.aspx

Um, that information comes from an organization whose history is suspect. Not saying this as a discredit for BFP, but that place you are using as a support for any claim isn't too credible.

[cjurakpt]

Hey cjurakpt, what the heck are you talking about, dude?
I'm talking about lack of argumentative consistency: if everyone said they loved the clips, no one from the Doo Wai camp would be admonishing them that the only way they could know anything about him for certain was to touch hands with him - but when people offer cirticism of the clips, the default argument is to say the clips are not really an appropriate way to judge him;



I know GM Doo Wai personally and have studied under him for 14 years. His martial arts and dit da healing information was handed down from father to son in his family for over six generations. He is a great fighter and chi kung healer.
that's fine - so you have direct experience; in regards to the lineage, ok, fine, no one is disputing that - that is a fairly reasonable / not atypical thing to have TCMA and TCM knowledge handed down from father to son (like most tradesmen throughout history, this is how it's done); however, why that should necesarilly make him a great fighter is something I don't understand: since you state that he is a great fighter and healer, could you give specific examples to back up that statement? who did he fight? what did he heal? or are you just saying that in your time with him, you have come to believe that he is a great fighter / healer based only on your personal experience training with him, not having actually having seen him fight or heal a complicated disease?



Unfortunately, it appears from reading these comments here, some of you have not had a similar opportunity. I originally studied Karate at age 13 and achieved the rank of first degree black belt at age 18. I was strong and fast. Now I am relaxed and fast. At the age of 24, I thought I needed knee replacement surgery. I met GM Doo Wai and he sold me some dit da jow and other other internal herbal stuff and within four months my knees recovered from years of improper training.
why did you think that you needed "knee replacement sugery"? did an orthopedist tell you that? I find that hard to believe, since the only reason for a total knee replacement (TKR) is due to major arthritic changes in the knee joint that are typically the result of long term degeneration: a 24 year old getting a TKR is practically unheard of, unless you had major trauma or have some sort of congenital bone disease; and if you really did have degeneration to that degree, you would not have had any effect from external linements or internal herbal remedies, especially nt in 4 months; now, maybe you had some chronic inflammation in the knee joints for whatever reason: I would guess that the combination of the anti-inflammatory properties of the jow and the internal herbs along with you not doing whatever had caused the inflammation in the first place were sufficient to clear that up...


I was the biggest skeptic in the world regarding internal gung fu and jing etc.
do you know the actual definition of the word skeptic? could you please give us your definition? based on your useage I think you may not (and don't go looking it up first, that's cheating...)


Now if you guys want to talk about gung fu skills and internal stuff lets talk but if you want take cheap shots we will respond....I would expect you guys would likewise respond if your shifus were being attacked whether they were alive or deceased....[/[/
you can say whatever you want about my sifu (www.dantao.com, I really wouldn't care if you thought he was the best in the world or the biggest hack around; I think you miss the point about the comments and questions posted by others earlier on though...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Qoute "No one outside of Doo Wai or his students has even heard of this style. I believe this guy is a flat out scammer and I believe all scammers should be exposed"

In the category of the higher low systems are found four different tiger subsystems: hong tiger, s'hu tiger, imperial tiger and white tiger. They are placed above the previous systems because ch'i and some concepts of spiritual motion have been incorporated into them. Hong tiger was a system which evolved from a mixture of tiger and white dragon. It was used by palace guards especially against weapons. S'hu tiger was the weapons training that went with the unarmed system of hong tiger. Imperial tiger is a modern adaptation of hong tiger. The techniques are sophisticated at this level. Also contained in the band of high low systems is monkey, placed there because of its liberal use of parries and advanced striking techniques, taking it out of the realm of brute strength. White tiger is a highly sophisticated, forbidden style similar to snow tiger.
Found here :http://www.shaolin.com/styles_shaolin.aspx


Wow. This says it all. Where did you guys come up with this info? High Low Systems? 4 Tigers? + Snow Tiger?

This is the kind of crap that ruins Kung-Fu. Why don't you tell us more about these tigers or the monkey style, since it was 'taken out of the realm of brute strength.'

Who exactly taught you this info, and/or how can you support it? I for one, have NEVER heard of any of this stuff, EVER. I've been in the CMA game for 25 years and this is the newest info I've ever heard. Please enlighten me/us.

[TAO YIN]

:confused:

Umm, why is no-one dogging the clip where he is somewhat younger and has open space? Is anyone discussing that clip, or? Seriously, I can't tell.

No-one is saying much of anything about any of the clips other than the norm/ common responses. So I'll throw out a common response. Does anyone notice that in his younger clip he is flowing pretty good? He seems to be flowing more and worrying less about mechanics and structure. I think this is good to do with forms sometimes, because it makes the form more alive, and it shows the mechanical mistakes and flaws of a system. I don't know, but to me it looks a little more like he is moving like fighting and shadow-boxing, than worrying about slowing it down and checking the basics. Hmmm. What do you guys think? Should forms, over time be expressed in the same way as the practitioner fights? Or is it more important to always worry on the structure, the mechanics, the basics, and so on? Either way, I know many, many "Masters," who if they did their forms "full out with full speed," would make their forms look hideous.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Even with the video where he is in the wide open space, he is hoping and skipping in a way that other KF styles DON'T.

He is not utilizing any waist power and it is pretty clear that his strikes do not come from his stance, more so the flailing of his arms.

Like I said, it is obvious he has learned something, there are techniques there, albeit a bit sloppy (Slow or fast, they're still sloppy) and even a few trademark Bok Mei Combos. And with all the other controversey surrounding him and his style, it seems like he's a guy who has embelissed quite a bit about his KF and some KF history.

[Ironman]

Wow, hey cjurakpt, your comments and questions are tortuous (look it up in the dictionary)....WOW:D :D :D

[Ironman]

Wow. This says it all. Where did you guys come up with this info? High Low Systems? 4 Tigers? + Snow Tiger?

This is the kind of crap that ruins Kung-Fu. Why don't you tell us more about these tigers or the monkey style, since it was 'taken out of the realm of brute strength.'

Who exactly taught you this info, and/or how can you support it? I for one, have NEVER heard of any of this stuff, EVER. I've been in the CMA game for 25 years and this is the newest info I've ever heard. Please enlighten me/us.

Lama Pai Sifu, who are you referring to when you say: "you guys"? IMO you should ask the question to the person who made the post or comment. Thank you , sir.

[Dr.Harut]

So many replies...wow

Ironman trains in person with Grandmaster Doo Wai. You ask "who did he fight?".... That is an improper question to ask. We have seen how chi and jing affects body. We have taught how to cultivate chi and jing. We have never attacked another’s sifu or their lineage...

Some of continue to insult our teacher and our lineage. Some of you even questioned his language, culture and you continue with even do more insults.
As we see the lama guy....he is half the age of our Teacher and he still has much to learn, yet he considers himself as an expert.... He is truly slow and sloppy based on his clips....and this moron lama pai guy is trying to call our Teacher a liar....this lama guy thinks he is a master…. hahahahaha…. He is a very jealous, insecure, wannabee martial artist...shame, shame, shame.

Anyway...I will try to make this my last reply...you are free in your comments, but it would be nice if you judge your words before posting.

[Ironman]

Even with the video where he is in the wide open space, he is hoping and skipping in a way that other KF styles DON'T.

He is not utilizing any waist power and it is pretty clear that his strikes do not come from his stance, more so the flailing of his arms.

Like I said, it is obvious he has learned something, there are techniques there, albeit a bit sloppy (Slow or fast, they're still sloppy) and even a few trademark Bok Mei Combos. And with all the other controversey surrounding him and his style, it seems like he's a guy who has embelissed quite a bit about his KF and some KF history.

Lama Pai Sifu, I have seen - I believe - most of the clips you posted on the internet and YOU most of all should never use the word sloppy to describe anything.... It is evident that our gung fu style is not hard and mechnical like that external stuff you do and teach....

It is great that our Bak Fu Pai Youtube video clips have received so much attention from other shifus. However, we knew that when someone (not us) downloaded the first clips from our websites onto Youtube, some INSECURE shifus would feel threatened because they are AMATEURISH and FRAUDS. No RESPECTABLE STUDENT of a RESPECTABLE CHINESE SHIFU would act this way towards another system. The characteristic of the comments here demonstrate their professionalism.

If a shifu is confident about his own skills he will not be worry about another's skills.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lOguT2wVIE&NR

[Fu-Pow]

Anybody that has done real Chinese martial arts for any significant amount of time can see that this Doo Wai has some fundamental problems with the way he moves.
Its not a your style vs. our style argument. Its more fundamental than that. All good martial arts share the common goal of moving like "steel wrapped in cotton." They might not all agree exactly on how to get there, but the basics body requirements/principles of movement remain the same.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

IRONMAN;

This post is directed to you and Harut.

What exactly would you know about respectable Chinese Sifus? You claim to be a student of Doo Wai. You claim to practice a style of Kung-Fu called Bok Fu Pai.


Sidebar: Shifu is a mandarin term, Bok Fu Pai is a cantonese term, try to keep with one language. It might give you a little bit of credibility.

Here are some very real questions that I hope you can answer. Since you have tried to attack me personally with statements that I am ammatuerish, a fraud, etc.

Plus, you are both students of a guy, who if I am correct, you don't even live in the same state or country as.

1. What is the history of Bok Fu Pai, and is it verifiable from anyone else other than Doo?

2. What evidence do you have that Doo is a great fighter?

3. What evidence do you have that his family were doctors to the royal family of the Tang Dynasty?

4. Who else does this style other than Doo Wai?

5. Where else can I read about Bok Fu Pai, other than through Doo or his students?

6. Are you saying that Doo is the only person in the world that teachers this style, other than instructors he has certified?

7. Does Doo have a school or does he teach out of his house?

These are very real questions, with no under or overtones. If you can answer these questions and supply real information (not that it will change my opinion of any video clips I have seen of Doo Wai - including the coconut breaks) but it will prevent people from thinking that the style is completely made up by Doo. Not that is would be necessarily a bad thing, to teach one's own style, but when you claim that it is not your creation, and when a history, facts, lineage, etc., are given with it that are untrue, there lies the real fraud.

I am looking forward to hearing your answers.

And by the way...How does one measure the quality of a teacher? Are the two of you - teachers? Do you teach students this style? Do you have any students? What are some of your experiences BEFORE you started training with Doo? How do you know what HE tells you is correct?

[MAC]

Well, all-righty then. It's apparent that few have elected to follow my suggestions. I can appreciate a couple of the remarks here, and tip my hat to those that tried to pursue a productive dialogue, but those few that I'd hoped to pursuade toward a different avenue choose to continue their path, evidently electing not to see or hear beyond themselves. I'll fall back to the shadow mode and hope to find a new thread with dialogue from those that attempted productive contributions to this forum.

[TAO YIN]

:D

That's better. Many, many students and masters alike have fundamental problems with the way they move if they are moving as fast as they can or close to it. I agree that in his "wide open space clip," his footwork is a little behind his moves, and perhaps he is "hopping" around a bit. Oh well, this is a common problem in Bai Mei and its "the like." With higher level forms of "the like," it's very easy for one to have his footwork behind his hands because of so many combos due to occur with each step. Being preoccupied with "rooting" (ha, I know) during basics and during form work is not always the way to go. This can create the flatfoot and eventually the hopping when going fast.

About the waist thing, is he beyond that? If he is a master of said style and said method, he would be... Right? If he is a "true master" of said style, the last thing we would see is his waist movement because it would be the least exaggerated movement. It would occur simultaneously with each breath, no matter if the breath was in or out. Then the chi at the hands already summoned... Right?

Anyways, it doesn't matter one way or the other I guess. As for the hard arses on this thread, FUUCK you guys need to get laid.

[lkfmdc]

Who are Doo Wai's students to criticize Lama Pai Sifu? Have they ever seen high level Tibetan Martial Art? Have they ever touched hands with Lama Pai Sifu?

It is apparent that they are just upset that a high level and respected sifu has criticized their teacher

If I tell you that with his Chyuhn Choih, Lama Pai Sifu can cause a buring sensation in your chest from across the room, clearly he is a great master

[Dr.Harut]

Just a quick reply:

I will ignore all your questions...although I can answer them one by one, will give this one sentence as an answer: If anyone thinks that Bak Fu Pai is a made up style...then, wow...GM Doo Wai is a genius.

[Dr.Harut]

Who are Doo Wai's students to criticize Lama Pai Sifu? Have they ever seen high level Tibetan Martial Art? Have they ever touched hands with Lama Pai Sifu?

It is apparent that they are just upset that a high level and respected sifu has criticized their teacher

If I tell you that with his Chyuhn Choih, Lama Pai Sifu can cause a buring sensation in your chest from across the room, clearly he is a great master

Very simple...I don't believe that he has skills..till I touch hands with.

with the attitude he has...he is not as you are trying to portray him

[lkfmdc]

(raises hand from back of the room)

I have a question?

How come you never answer any questions?

(return to your regularly scheduled rant)

[Dr.Harut]

(raises hand from back of the room)

I have a question?

How come you never answer any questions?

(return to your regularly scheduled rant)

Again very simple...why should I answer to people who protray themselves as the top experts plus give themselves the right to judge something which they never ever crossed with in their lives?...you are insecure, and you are the one who tried to tie an accusation on us.

I have a question to you...just point up where we attacked your teacher and your lineage?

[Ironman]

Who are Doo Wai's students to criticize Lama Pai Sifu? Have they ever seen high level Tibetan Martial Art? Have they ever touched hands with Lama Pai Sifu?

It is apparent that they are just upset that a high level and respected sifu has criticized their teacher

If I tell you that with his Chyuhn Choih, Lama Pai Sifu can cause a buring sensation in your chest from across the room, clearly he is a great master

No, I have not seen high level Tibetian gung fu. I can tell you that other BFP students and I can cause a burning sentation in your chest and we can make your heart skip a few beats from across a room. Does that make them or me high level masters? But by your standards, I am a great master.... geez

[Dr.Harut]

No, I have not seen high level Tibetian gung fu. I can tell you that other BFP students and I can cause a burning sensation in your chest and we can make your heart skip a few beats from across a room. Does that make them or me high level masters? But by your standards, I am a great master.... geez



Brother....do not share too much...

They think they know all the gung fu history....If they have not heard of a style, then it does not exist. Chinese history goes back for thousands of years and some of us know that most gung fu systems were handed down from generation to generation within families. And the closer the practitioner is to the family the better. As Chinese families died off, a lot of information has been lost. We in BFP are fortunate to have a family inherited Grandmaster whose motto is " THE PROOF IS IN THE RESULTS".

[cjurakpt]

Wow, hey cjurakpt, your comments and questions are tortuous (look it up in the dictionary)....WOW:D :D :D

typical response when you have nothing else to say of substance:
1) you can't answer a simple question (e.g. - by what qualification does the term "great" apply to Doo Wai as both fighter and healer)
2) your dramatic statement about your imminent TKR and its subsequent miraculous remission was shown to be unrealistic
3) you don't know the proper definition of a word you use (skepticism means that someone evaluates based on the evidence presented - it doesn't mean doubtful, which is how you used it -"I was the biggest skeptic in the world regarding internal gung fu and jing etc." - there is no "before" or "after" with skepticism - as a true skeptic, you are always open to having your mind changed about something based on new evidence coming to light)

instead, you resort to mockery and sarcasm (e.g - using the word tortuous to describe a point by point reply and then telling me to look it up)

Ironman - your credibility on this forum is essentially non-existent at this point and further discussion with you is pointless; post a reply, have the last word (no doubt you need it) and have a nice life.

[Ironman]

typical response when you have nothing else to say of substance:
1) you can't answer a simple question (e.g. - by what qualification does the term "great" apply to Doo Wai as both fighter and healer)
2) your dramatic statement about your imminent TKR and its subsequent miraculous remission was shown to be unrealistic
3) you don't know the proper definition of a word you use (skepticism means that someone evaluates based on the evidence presented - it doesn't mean doubtful, which is how you used it -"I was the biggest skeptic in the world regarding internal gung fu and jing etc." - there is no "before" or "after" with skepticism - as a true skeptic, you are always open to having your mind changed about something based on new evidence coming to light)

instead, you resort to mockery and sarcasm (e.g - using the word tortuous to describe a point by point reply and then telling me to look it up)

Ironman - your credibility on this forum is essentially non-existent at this point and further discussion with you is pointless; post a reply, have the last word (no doubt you need it) and have a nice life.


wow sorry, I did not mean to offend you:(

[Ironman]

Brother....do not share too much...

They think they know all the gung fu history....If they have not heard of a style, then it does not exist. Chinese history goes back for thousands of years and some of us know that most gung fu systems were handed down from generation to generation within families. And the closer the practitioner is to the family the better. As Chinese families died off, a lot of information has been lost. We in BFP are fortunate to have a family inherited Grandmaster whose motto is " THE PROOF IS IN THE RESULTS".

Yes Dr. Harut, I agree....:)

[nyhakka]

Ok, this is something else here! What happened to the discussion? I mean, when are the questions going to be answered? Isn't that why you post here, to question and BE questioned in oreder to educate ourselves? Or do we come here just to pick and slander each other?
Doo Wai guys: I don't see why it's so hard to answer direct questions? If you don't know just say so and ask your sifu for information. Also, if people here feel that the credibility is suspect, that is their right. You can't call that slander. If you don't like it then why post?

Lama guys: Your reputation is well known, so why get so riled up about what is being said? As sifus and "masters" it is also your responsibility to conduct yourselves as elders and at higher maturity levels than those that are not. If they are students trying to defend their sifu then that should be commended, although childish on their part, but for you to stoop too their level and continue the confilct instead of guide and direct you are then acting contradictory to the role you have been bestowed with. Like it or not, you are supposed to the role models for the next generation and IMO your actions here is not condusive to the responsibility.

I am not trying to single anyone out, I spoke to these two groups since they have the most dialogue in this thread. If I myself am guilty of any posts up until this point that is in line with the immaturity shown by these and other parties I formally apologize! Such is not the way of the ethical TAO, and my sifu would not appreciate if I have been. Remember gentlemen, we are a direct reflection of our sifu and what they taught us in fighting, morality, and life. Let's start acting like the sifus and warriors we claim to be.

And for the record, I'm not a sifu and am disappointed that a post like this didn't come from one!:(

[Dr.Harut]

your dramatic statement about your imminent TKR and its subsequent miraculous remission was shown to be unrealistic


Its not unrealistic.

[Dr.Harut]

wow...insults again....lets try to ignore :D

[CLFLPstudent]

Dr. Harut,

Why the turn around by you or Doo Wai on answering the questions?

First (11-3-06) you said this:

Originally posted by Dr. Harut:
I told...I am posting on Grandmaster Doo Wai's behalf...that means He is the one who is writing the posts...and am just copying them here

Please wait...you will receive reply
__________________

But now (11-10-06) we have this:

Originally posted by Dr. Harut:
Just a quick reply:

I will ignore all your questions...although I can answer them one by one, will give this one sentence as an answer: If anyone thinks that Bak Fu Pai is a made up style...then, wow...GM Doo Wai is a genius.

My first question ( which probably won't be answered :D ) is why is it taking so long to answer the original questions?

The second question I have is why the turn-around? Are you unhappy with Doo Wai's answers? Why isn't Doo Wai on here to 'defend' himself?

BTW I have been to your 'forum', it is pretty sad there. Seems like you guys spend a lot of time arguing with Jim Lacy, not much else. Of the 19 members you have there, 2 are Grandmaster Doo Wai, 2 are Dr Harout, and 2 are Ironman, and 1 is named 'test'. So just about 33% of your members are 3 guys :D

-David

[Mano Mano]

They think they know all the gung fu history....If they have not heard of a style, then it does not exist. Chinese history goes back for thousands of years and some of us know that most gung fu systems were handed down from generation to generation within families. And the closer the practitioner is to the family the better. As Chinese families died off, a lot of information has been lost. We in BFP are fortunate to have a family inherited Grandmaster whose motto is " THE PROOF IS IN THE RESULTS".

Even if a gung fu system is handed down from generation to generation within a family at least some reference would be made to it by other martial artists a some period in its history for instance, some family styles were renowned for the sword, staff or spear play or the system has produced a famous fighter or a master in it’s history, or some sifu or student has crossed hands with some on from the style in the past.
You claim BFP has been handed down from generation to generation yet until resent years only student’s people at the BFP schools had heard of it.
As for closer to the family the better depends on the family & the instructor.

[cjurakpt]

Its not unrealistic.

ok - why not?

Iron man stated that at the age of 24 he thought that he was going to have to havea a "knee replacement"; I asked Ironman why he thought he needed one, and asked him if he was told this by an orthopedic surgeo; unfortunately, he never answered the question (he got all wound up about my torutous reply and then later on "apologized" for "offending" me, as if I really gave a crap); anyway, I then pointed out that the likelyhood of a 24 y/o requiring a "knee replacement" in the absence of serious trauma or some sort of significant organic condition was extremely unlikely in the first place,since TKR's are typically done on older adults subsequent to long term degenerative changes; regardless of that, if in fact he did have the degree of degenerative changes within the knee joint that would make it necessary to have such a serious operation, then no amount of external linement or internal herbal remedies would reverse that process, especially not in 4 months; if he did experience symptomatic aleviation of knee pain in 4 months, then the cause of his knee pain was more likely the result of a local chronic inflammatory process as opposed to the degenerative changes requiring a TKR

but I guess if you just say "it's not unrealistic" without providing a shred of evidence to back up your opinion, well, you're the "doctor", so I guess that we just have to believe you;:rolleyes:

regardless of what you guys do CMA-wise (which if you notice, I havn't said a thing about specifically, and certainly not negatively), neither you nor Ironman seem to have the ability to carry on a reasoned discussion, so I'm basically done trying to communicate with both of you; have a nice life

[Dr.Harut]

When posted for GM Doo Wai, I said so.

I choose not to answer...am not here to advertise BFP...we have sites , you can go and read there.

Plus...its been years am in BFP Family under GM Doo Wai and as I said am always in contact with him online and have been in US on and off to learn directly from Him...so its absurd to say that I might be unhappy with answers...I know answers already...but the way your friends attacked us and insulted us we choose to ignore just to make things calm down...but they went more in their insults...even in they tried to accuse us on this thread that we attacked their teacher and lineage...and they are unable to show where and when we attacked, even more they tried to call our Teacher a liar.....would I answer to such people's questions?

GM Doo Wai defend hmself?...from whom? and who are the ones that are trying to accuse our Teacher?...who are these people in the first place?..they have their own road and we have ours...but they think they have the right to judge a system even without knowing the system....I already gave them the replies they deserve.

Even in the above post their friend is saying we are students and they are masters...yes we are glad to be students, and we are not for a title, we are for knowledge only....but if I count the standard they put for calling themselves masters...then many in BFP family surpass them.

Well, you say you have been in our forum...that means everyone who saw that link can come there,.... come and ask directly to GM Doo Wai, is He is the real Doo Wai or someone else trying to be Doo Wai?

[Dr.Harut]

ok - why not?

Iron man stated that at the age of 24 he thought that he was going to have to havea a "knee replacement"; I asked Ironman why he thought he needed one, and asked him if he was told this by an orthopedic surgeo; unfortunately, he never answered the question (he got all wound up about my torutous reply and then later on "apologized" for "offending" me, as if I really gave a crap); anyway, I then pointed out that the likelyhood of a 24 y/o requiring a "knee replacement" in the absence of serious trauma or some sort of significant organic condition was extremely unlikely in the first place,since TKR's are typically done on older adults subsequent to long term degenerative changes; regardless of that, if in fact he did have the degree of degenerative changes within the knee joint that would make it necessary to have such a serious operation, then no amount of external linement or internal herbal remedies would reverse that process, especially not in 4 months; if he did experience symptomatic aleviation of knee pain in 4 months, then the cause of his knee pain was more likely the result of a local chronic inflammatory process as opposed to the degenerative changes requiring a TKR

but I guess if you just say "it's not unrealistic" without providing a shred of evidence to back up your opinion, well, you're the "doctor", so I guess that we just have to believe you;:rolleyes:

regardless of what you guys do CMA-wise (which if you notice, I havn't said a thing about specifically, and certainly not negatively), neither you nor Ironman seem to have the ability to carry on a reasoned discussion, so I'm basically done trying to communicate with both of you; have a nice life

I have no reply other than say again that yes its not unrealistic....I have seen how internal remedies and external jows made arthritis to get better in short time....thats what I mean that its not unrealistic.

Yes Ironman had knee injuries and GM has cured them.

By the way, his apologies were sincere

[CLFLPstudent]

Originally Dr. Harut wrote:
I choose not to answer...am not here to advertise BFP...we have sites , you can go and read there.


Why choose not to answer now? There are no answers to Sifu Ross' questions there. You must acknowledge that by 'choosing' not to answer the questions now that it looks like you or Doo Wai are afraid to answer them.

Also, why go to your 'Forum' when you came here ( along with at least 1 other member from that forum - so now there are about 20% of your 'Forum' members here :rolleyes: ) ? Like I said - the only post's on that forum are bickering between Jim Lacy ( or someone using his name) and your BFP students.

-David

[lkfmdc]

why should I answer to people who protray themselves as the top experts plus give themselves the right to judge something which they never ever crossed with in their lives?



Pot to kettle, come in kettle, this is pot, over..... :rolleyes:

By the way, I give you a 10 on the question ducking meter ... but I still can't dance to it

[Dr.Harut]

Pot to kettle, come in kettle, this is pot, over..... :rolleyes:

By the way, I give you a 10 on the question ducking meter ... but I still can't dance to it


First of all...show us where and when we attacked your teacher and lineage?

[cjurakpt]

I have no reply other than say again that yes its not unrelaistic....I have seen how internal remedies and external jows made arthritis to get better in short time....thats what I mean that its not unrealistic.

ok, I'm going to brek my own rule here and reply to this because I want to use it as an object lesson on how people who have poor reading comprehension skills ought not to post on a written forum:

here's a summary:
1) IM said he thought he needed a TKR (total knee replacement) and that GM DW had "cured" his knee, rendering the allegedly needed surgery unecessary (hence, substantiating GM DW's skils as a "great" healer)
2) I asked him why he thought this was the case, and if an ORTHOPEDIST had told him this or not; he never answered
3) I illustrated the conditions under which a TKR was typically necessary: major degenerative changes of the knee joint (which is NOT the same thing as "arthritis")
4) I pointed out that when a knee joint is that far gone, no amount of external linemant/in ernal herbs are going to reverse it, especially not in 4 months



Yes Ironman had knee injuries and GM has cured them.

I never doubted that at all - I just doubted the reportedly extreme condition in which IM claimed his knee was, and I pointed out why; I also called into doubt the ability of the methods used by Doo Wai to effect that change (nothing about him personally); and if you read my posts carefully, I said that probably IM was suffereing from a chronic local inflammatory process of the knee - last time I checked "doctor," arthritis qualified under this type of definition - so if he had "arthritis" then i have no problem with dit da jow and the like being an effective cure: it's basicaly a "natural" form of anti-inflmmatory medicine; I too have seen "arthristis" be improved very rapidly by TCM, as well as by other things, like manual therapy, all of which are supposedly impossible according to allopathic medical standards

but that is NOT what I am talking about: what I have a problem with is someone claiming that his knee was so degenerated that he was in need of a TKR, and that it was "cured" as the result of linements and herbal remedies - that's BS and misleading - or if it were the truth, then there would be some very interesting x-ray evidence before and after to substantiate it, not to mention an orthopedist scratching his head somewhere...


By the way, his apologies were sincere
since I wasn't actually offended (he assumed that I was offended, I don't know why; for me to be offended I would have had to have given a crap about what he thinks about me, which I really don't), there was no need to apologise - and I still think he's unable to carry on a logical discussion; same goes for you

[lkfmdc]

What exactly was the purpose of "Doo Wai's" first message on this thread? To lecture me on what Lama Pai, Pak Hok and Hap Ga are?

As it turns out, he stuck his foot in his mouth (flexible for an old guy I'll give you that :rolleyes: )

Once again, "Hop Ga" does NOT mean "combined family"

Once again, Lama Pai, Pak Hok and Hop Ga are not all the "same"

Once again, Ng YIM Ming (note the spelling) was A grandmaster, not in any sense "the" grandmaster... and not even in my lineage...

In a nut shell, your master tried to look all high and mighty and demonstrated how little he really knows.

Nice ducking the repeated questions about the actualy character for "HOP"

Nice ducking translating a paragraph a first semester student could translate

Nice ducking the James Randi test

Nice ducking the law suit the Miao family brought against Doo Wai. The one where he couldn't respond to the allegations and couldn't provide any evidene in support of his claims.... I know, you say he knows nothing about the case... :rolleyes:

THe other thread is locked, so I can't quote from it, but all the crap is still there.

Oh, and I'm not African American not that it really mattes :rolleyes:

[brothernumber9]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the connotations a "white" tiger or "white" dragon has in many chinese folk customs. Perhaps such things didn't pervade the communities that bak fu pai evolved from, but based on the bow and references made to specific names, it is implied that there is some hakka influences.

And just to give myself an out, I only know what I have read from sources like Kungfu Magazine and the like and even less from the few people I know who trace thier lines back through hakka communities, mostly through HK and Toisan. So then, why is the system called white tiger ?

[Dr.Harut]

Why choose not to answer now? There are no answers to Sifu Ross' questions there. You must acknowledge that by 'choosing' not to answer the questions now that it looks like you or Doo Wai are afraid to answer them.

Also, why go to your 'Forum' when you came here ( along with at least 1 other member from that forum - so now there are about 20% of your 'Forum' members here :rolleyes: ) ? Like I said - the only post's on that forum are bickering between Jim Lacy ( or someone using his name) and your BFP students.

-David

Our Teacher GM Doo Wai afraid? from who? from a bunch of people who think they can come and put opinions loudly and wait everybody to agree with them?

Do not dare to talk with disrespect to our Teacher...you don't know Him, never met Him....so , wish you nice and happy training in your art and God bless you.

[lkfmdc]

Here is the original quote.....





This is Doo Wai, I would like to give a harmless opinion since some on this forum Private message Dr. Harut.

Here is my reply, if you are lima pai then you should be Hop Gar, (Combine family )Lima Pai, ( Lima Pai is from Tibet originally and when it reached China it is called Bak Hok White Crane ) Bak Hok, Lima, and Hop Gar is the same, however the master of hop gar was Ng Yun Ming, Shifu Ng was shot to death during the late 60’s by the Chinese gang, he was shot in the back .





I "should be Hop Gar"? WHY, because Doo Wai says so?

"Lima Pai is from Tibet originally"
thanks for the history lesson (and the poor spelling) :rolleyes: Is there a point to this?

"when it reached China it is called Bak Hok White Crane"
No, actually in Tibet it was called Si Jih Hao, and when it arrived in China it was called Lama Pai... Pak Hok didn't come about until the 20th C

Bak Hok, Lima, and Hop Gar is the same
Really, stick to Chi KUng demonstrations because in this, you are WAY out of your element

[lkfmdc]

Our Teacher GM Doo Wai afraid?



Sure does look like either he or you is afraid to answer some basic questions... the more you evade the more this seems true




a bunch of people who think they can come and put opinions



This place is called a DISCUSSION FORUM ... putting up opinions is the reason this place exists... I realize you are probably used to YOUR forum, where you can delete any unpleasant statements, but you don't own this one :rolleyes:




Do not dare to talk with disrespect to our Teacher



ooooooohhhhhhh, he disresepcted da masta, oooooooohhhhhhhh

[cjurakpt]

Pot to kettle, come in kettle, this is pot, over..... :rolleyes:

By the way, I give you a 10 on the question ducking meter ... but I still can't dance to it

I nominate Ironman and "Dr." Harut for the "Best Synchronized Trolling" award...

(reminds me of that old SNL skit about the synchronized swimming team where Martin Short's character couldn't actualy swim...and with Christopher Guest as the choreographer: "I see you! I see you!")

[Dr.Harut]

Look here you young fellow...you don't even match our senior brothers...so don't portray yourself here....first of all what you say its not an attack nor attack on your teacher or lineage.

Plus if you have some proves from that Miao family..bring here on the forum or let one of that family come here and say loudly whom they took to court...are you sure you are not confusing with other person?...well this is a serious accusation you're doing.

Just bring a Miao Family member here.....and let them clarify if there is an issue.....but be aware Ross....you will lose credibility even among your supporters if you can not bring an offical document

To Gene Ching:...I demand in all my brothers name that Ross should bring an official document of the lawsuite he is accusing our Teacher...I think its our right, otherwise he should apologize offically.

We tried to ignore your insults, but seems you are so insecure that you are continuing your crap and lies.

and why? because a clip made them worry so much that they tried to discredit it by calling sloppy Bak Mei

Well its 11:30 midnight and I have to get up early..so this much for today is enough I think.

[Dr.Harut]

I nominate Ironman and "Dr." Harut for the "Best Synchronized Trolling" award...

(reminds me of that old SNL skit about the synchronized swimming team where Martin Short's character couldn't actualy swim...and with Christopher Guest as the choreographer: "I see you! I see you!")

since we are "best sybchronized trolling" awards...please we wish you nice life...if you can please, don't mention us in your posts.

[lkfmdc]

Look here you young fellow...



"young fellow" :confused:

you still have me confused with some African American guy :rolleyes:




you don't even match our senior brothers...



Match in what criteria? Have you ever seen me do forms? Have you ever crossed hands with me? Oh yeah, we can't judge "master doo" without knowing him but you can judge us all from the internet :rolleyes:

You're right, I don't match up, I don't do magic tricks and try and pass them off as "Chi Kung"....

Can "master doo" actually do that stuff in front of James Randi under neutral conditions? It's been asked about 5 times now. I guess the answer is NO :rolleyes:

YOu really should have stayed on your own forum, where you can delete anything that questions the imortal greatness of master doo

[pakhok]

I think this is good moment for coffee and relax with one good video clip from my Rapidshare collection. Traditional ofcourse :)

http://rapidshare.com/files/2820380/Mok_Gar_01.mpg

peace

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Wow, quite a lot of activity since I last looked at the forum..THIS MORNING! The Dr. and Ironman have been quite busy.

So why no answers to the question?? I think they are all very reasonable.

And here is another one; Why do you guys keep saying that I've insulted your teacher? I didn't call him any names, I didn't say that he is a liar.

I did say that I would like to see some proof, as no one has yet to show anyone regarding this style of Doo's.

I did give my opinion about his form. I didn't care for it. So what? Why do you guys care so much about mine, or others opinions on this forum? You all seem happy with your teacher and your style. I say; "Good for You."

I didn't call him a jerk or a charlaton, although I have read posts and stuff on the net which has amounted to such. It doesn't really matter to me.

Someone posted a clip of Doo Wai on this forum and asked for comment. We did. Now you tell us that we insulted Doo with our opinions?? C'mon, give me a break. If you don't agree with what is said, it's your right. But it's also our right to give our opinions as well.

Peace.

[nyhakka]

Valid points sir. Any rebuttal to that White tiger guys?

[Dr.Harut]

"young fellow" :confused:

you still have me confused with some African American guy :rolleyes:



Match in what criteria? Have you ever seen me do forms? Have you ever crossed hands with me? Oh yeah, we can't judge "master doo" without knowing him but you can judge us all from the internet :rolleyes:

You're right, I don't match up, I don't do magic tricks and try and pass them off as "Chi Kung"....

Can "master doo" actually do that stuff in front of James Randi under neutral conditions? It's been asked about 5 times now. I guess the answer is NO :rolleyes:

YOu really should have stayed on your own forum, where you can delete anything that questions the imortal greatness of master doo


No one is confused about the color of your skin...yesterday, I saw your site and saw your photo.

recall back your post where you put a standard of being a good "master"...."burning sensation from accross of room"...well for you thats a true chi gung, because you say you or Parella can do it...and as for our chi gung , we should pass test in front of that James Randi guy yes?...hilarious thinking you have...

Plus by mentioning the Randi test, you have insulted all the systems that have chi gung, including the system you claim to be...Bak Mei, yes Bak Mei is a great system and has great chi gung sets. This alone gives me doubt that your Parella's claim to be Bak Mei is doubtful, because you are doubting the whole internal arts...as far as I know that Randi person has doubts on all chi gung all in all.

If that James Randi wants to see the effects of our chi gung, he can personally contact our BFP association in official way.

Yes, I would have stayed on our own forums, if I didn't hear about the way, you "multisystem masters" reacted as Bak Fu Pai is sloppy Bak Mei. You would better to do a search about a system before giving any opinions

By the way, Mr Ross...we demand you to bring us offical documents of that lawsuite you claim....this is serious accusation you are doing ...so bring proof first...or bring one of Miao family people and let them bring official documents.

[Dr.Harut]

Wow, quite a lot of activity since I last looked at the forum..THIS MORNING! The Dr. and Ironman have been quite busy.

So why no answers to the question?? I think they are all very reasonable.

And here is another one; Why do you guys keep saying that I've insulted your teacher? I didn't call him any names, I didn't say that he is a liar.

I did say that I would like to see some proof, as no one has yet to show anyone regarding this style of Doo's.

I did give my opinion about his form. I didn't care for it. So what? Why do you guys care so much about mine, or others opinions on this forum? You all seem happy with your teacher and your style. I say; "Good for You."

I didn't call him a jerk or a charlaton, although I have read posts and stuff on the net which has amounted to such. It doesn't really matter to me.

Someone posted a clip of Doo Wai on this forum and asked for comment. We did. Now you tell us that we insulted Doo with our opinions?? C'mon, give me a break. If you don't agree with what is said, it's your right. But it's also our right to give our opinions as well.

Peace.


Parella...refer to your post where in the first sentence you say" imperial physicians?...please"...isn't this considered that you are saying that our Teacher is a liar?

I am not saying anything about your comment...but to call the name of an established style to the name of another established style...thats the insult...your comments whether positive or negative...is not the issue...everyone is free...if you had said that you consider it sloppy, then I would not had reacted, because everyone is free on his opinions... but if you say Bak Fu Pai is sloppy Bak Mei..then I have to come and clarify that we are not Bak Mei, we are Bak Fu Pai.

Again, I am saying everyone is free of their opinions...there might be much more Bak Fu Pai clips on youtube, on myspace

Peace to you all

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Harut,

David Ross was kidding about our Magica Chi blasts from across the room. You mentioned that you guys COULD do that, but Dave Ross was only Joking. We do not and can not do that.

As far as what I said about it being 'sloppy bok mei'? I say it again. To me, the what Doo is doing; looks like SLOPPY BOK MEI. There I said it.

When I see some proof that anyone OTHER than Doo (and his students) does this style, I will recognize that it is not Bok Mei. As of right now...you or Ironman or whoever else studies with you guys here, has NOT answered a single question that was presented to you. You do however, do an average job of 'slipping' our questions, but as Gene informed you, we deal with this kind of crap on the forum all the time. We are used to people claiming things without proof. All I asked is that you answer a few very simple questions, which would clarify a lot for all of us.
Instead of answering them, you retort with some quippy little insult regarding the fact that I have learned more than one style, and that I no nothing about Chi (Heih) and nothing of Chinese medicine.

To quote JIM KELLY from Enter the Dragon; "Man, you come right out of a comic book!" Are you insulted by that quote? It's from a movie and the guy in the movie isn't talking about your teacher or style. It's just some words. Are you still insulted? Is it because I used it here, referencing your lack of credible info and your fairytale-like story? Mystic Chi-Blasts, Healed Injuries, Lineage that no one else can verify?

Ninja please...

And on the healed injuries note; If Doo COULD heal a guy who needed total reconstructive Knee surgery, as IRONMAN claims, he wouldn't need to ask people for $30,000 for 'sifu-ship' and the secrets of the Bok Fu Pai Style. He'd be a Millionair a hundred times over, healing people and teaching western doctors how they heal others as well.

So as far as that goes, IT IS A LOAD OF CRAP! Chris Jurak, who is a licensed Physical Therapist, already went over the Knee stuff. Clearly, on this point, you guys are full of sh1t.

[Ironman]

We in Bak Fu Pai respect all styles and forms of gung fu and other martial arts. There have been some crazy questions raised here. While it is true that everyone is entitled you their own opinion, and we know that their questions are based upon their own experiences. I can see how you hard external gung fu guys would want to question an internal gung fu master. I believe in asking upright questions about the style, form, technique, power generation, iron body conditioning, etc with the utmost respect to that style's practitioner or master. But when you challenge or make inappropriate comments about someone’s skill or their grandmaster’s skill, your questions will probably go unanswered. Why, because you have put them on the defensive and people like us will respond. We all know there is a lot of ineffective martial artists and so-called masters out there exploiting the public for the dollar. We also know that there are a lot of martial artists who think that they are best. We never claimed we are the best and we do not think we are the only game in town. I am almost certain that all of us can learn from one another. Now what I do find puzzling (but I am not surprised) is how some Americans feel they have the right to question the history and heritage of a native Chinese person who comes from a gung fu family. GM Doo Wai has a vast amount of knowledge and information. He is a living treasure and we in the U.S. are fortunate to have him here in the U.S. I am amazed by his wealth of martial arts knowledge, his skill level, and his herbal knowledge. GM Doo Wai lectures regularly at the University of California San Diego School of Medicine.
A lot of the gung fu history is based on legend and folklore. There are no detailed records on every student that was taught in any of these open styles. Plus in my opinion the few styles that were open to the public all the information was not pass down. If you guys ask the right questions, you may get answers…. Here in the U.S. we all have free speech and it goes both ways…. :) :) :) :)

[lkfmdc]

Dear lord you guys are clueless.... first you called me African American, then it took you unitl YESTERDAY to just go to my site and figure it out?

Yes, the rest of the forum realized immediately teh burning chi chyuhn Choih was a joke, based upon some of your sillier posts.

This is growing pointless, you evade every question and start to sound more and more like a cult

[cjurakpt]

Now what I do find puzzling (but I am not surprised) is how some Americans feel they have the right to question the history and heritage of a native Chinese person who comes from a gung fu family.


I think that statement just about ends the entire point of continuing this "discussion"...

I wonder what color the sky is in his world of mindless sifu worship?

[lkfmdc]

yes, we're lowly white people

but at least we know the Chinese character for "Hop"

:rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

GM Doo Wai lectures regularly at the University of California San Diego School of Medicine.
[/I][/B]

well, I searched the entire website of for him and some record of any lectures he gave and was unable to find anything at all that matched his name; what Department did he lecture under and in what capacity? when was the last lecture that he gave? what was the topic? I can always send an e-mail to the school and ask as well, but maybe it would be a little faster this way...or was this a secret lecture?

[cjurakpt]

[B][I]There have been some crazy questions raised here.

you mean, like why someone thought that at the age of 24 they needed a total knee replacement?

still waiting for a crazy answer on that one...:rolleyes:

[cjurakpt]

If you guys ask the right questions, you may get answers….

this is starting to sound like a post by Happeh...

[Mano Mano]

cjurakpt, what ever you do don't hold your breath while waiting for an answer.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I asked several questions. I got no answers.

You then said I need to ask the RIGHT questions. By RIGHT questions, do you mean the ones you KNOW the answers to or WISH to answer?

By not answering anything, I believe you have told us all we need to know.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

There have been some crazy questions raised here.



Like what? Which questions have been crazy? The one's I asked? They refer to style, lineage, the verification of facts and or claims made by IronMan, Doo and Harut.

Maybe you like questions more like this? What are the names of the forms in your style? What weapons does it use? Two person sets? Are you more comfortable with questions like these? You see, even if you CAN answer these, it doesn't prove anything. At least, by answering the other questions posted here, you MIGHT gain SOME credibility.

Dodging questions and being evassive when confronted, only make you two (three) look like a pack of fools and liars.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I think we are done here.

Jurak, Ross & Parrella VS. Frauds

J,R,P Score = 2

Green Clown and the Doo Doo boys Score = 0


2 to 0 baby! Looks like we're undefeated....lol

[Reality_Check]

With regards to Lama Pai Sifu's comment about Bak Fu Pai and it's appearance as "sloppy" Bak Mei, these two clips seem to support his contention.

Bak Fu Pai (beginning at the 1:20 or so mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s--J4EihtM

Bak Mei Jik Bo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccUjuaGTllQ

The movements are identical and in the same sequence. Could it be that Bak Fu Pai is simply renamed Bak Mei? Perhaps Doo Wai decided to create a new style from Bak Mei, giving it a secret history, as he couldn't compete with higher generation Bak Mei teachers (such as Chin D'or). Such things have been known to happen in the past. Please note, this is a supposition, but the lack of a verifiable lineage, as well as the pronounced similarities to Bak Mei, make it a legitimate line of inquiry.

[cjurakpt]

ouch!

coffin, meet last nail...

[mung foo]

Well, questions have been asked by both sides.

Lkfdmc, Lama Pai, only selectively answers. Dr.Harut, IM, Doo Wai, don't answer any!

This is just more mudslinging

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What questions do I selectively answer????

[mung foo]

Reality_check-


The movements are identical and in the same sequence. Could it be that Bak Fu Pai is simply renamed Bak Mei? Perhaps Doo Wai decided to create a new style from Bak Mei, giving it a secret history, as he couldn't compete with higher generation Bak Mei teachers (such as Chin D'or). Such things have been known to happen in the past. Please note, this is a supposition, but the lack of a verifiable lineage, as well as the pronounced similarities to Bak Mei, make it a legitimate line of inquiry.

I said the same thing to Doo Wai back at the old Southern Fist Board. The response given was that it is written in a ancestral book by the Doo family. This kind of circular reasoning kinda reminds me of religion.


Lama Pai Sifu
What questions do I selectively answer????

well, all you guys need to do is look at what Doo Wai wrote through Harut, on page 1of this thread.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Doo Wai asked (if it was really even Doo Wai) if we were Lama Pai and proceeded to butcher our style's history and lineage. Our websites tell everyone what styles we teach/train in. And if he wanted to know wether I did Buk Sing or Hung Sing CLF, he should have asked in a more cohesive manner. And he asked me if I knew who the founder of Buk Sing CLF was. What kind of question is that? If I didn't know, I could look it up in about 5 seconds. These weren't questions, they were diversions.

Doo or his boys have still not answered a single question presented to them on this forum. I assume that they never will.

[nyhakka]

Now this is REALLY getting interesting!!!

[mung foo]

Lama Pai Sifu-

Well..., he asked more than just about CLF.

Anyway, I think it is Doo Wai because I had debates with him before and he doesn't really put bullets next to his questions. He sort of does a run on sentence with questions.

This is truly comical if not sad.

[Ironman]

well, I searched the entire website of for him and some record of any lectures he gave and was unable to find anything at all that matched his name; what Department did he lecture under and in what capacity? when was the last lecture that he gave? what was the topic? I can always send an e-mail to the school and ask as well, but maybe it would be a little faster this way...or was this a secret lecture?

GM Doo Wai lectures on chinese herbal medicine and chi cultivation. Keep searching Dude, the medical school is large and I imagine there are a lot of departments....

[Ironman]

Dear lord you guys are clueless.... first you called me African American, then it took you unitl YESTERDAY to just go to my site and figure it out?

Yes, the rest of the forum realized immediately teh burning chi chyuhn Choih was a joke, based upon some of your sillier posts.

This is growing pointless, you evade every question and start to sound more and more like a cult

While it may seem to you guys that it is impossible for a person to feel a heat sensation from a person thowing a punch from across a room, we know that it is possible and that it can be done plus other stuff. This shows that you guys are just as I thought hard external gung fu practitioners and you know very little or nothing about the internal styles of gung fu. Chi cultivation is real. There are a lot of clips of chi gung (qigong) on Youtube showing some old gung fu masters demonstrating the results of their chi cultivation. Do a search they are not hard to find. There is even a Shifu John Chang on there using his chi energy to light some newspaper on fire and there are other demos of real chi gung and there is fake stuff there too. Now if you want to ask me who is real and who is not after your search I may answer those questions.

[Ironman]

Grandmaster Doo Wai would like to personally thanks those two shifus for raising the controversy here concerning our system on a well-known kung fu forum. Their controversy concerning our system's forms as sloopy BAK MIE has increased the sales of our DVDs, school enrollment, and inquiries into our system. And for this, the BAK FU PAI (White Tiger Gung Fu) family is grateful and Grandmaster Doo Wai wants to personal thank Shifu Parrella and Shifu Ross.

[cjurakpt]

GM Doo Wai lectures on chinese herbal medicine and chi cultivation. Keep searching Dude, the medical school is large and I imagine there are a lot of departments....



this guy is retarded: I ask him for specifics to aid with a search and all he tells me to do is keep searching: why no answer? were the lectures secret?

also, he obviously has no clue about how a website search function works, but when you enter a term into the search function, it scans the ENTIRE website, regardless of how "large" it may be; BTW, not only did I search for Doo Wai, but I also tried general terms like Chinese Medicine, qi / chi, qigong / chi kung, and herbal medicine - nothing to do with Doo Wai at all, nada, zip; so, if he did lecture there, there is no public record on the website, which suggests that like much of what these guys say, it's BS

also, I luv the comment "I imagine there are a lot of departments" - no, really?

anyway, being a good SKEPTIC, if IM or DR. H. can provide some actual concrete documentation of GM DW lecturing at UCSDSM, I will stand corrected...until then, I call BS yet once more

[cjurakpt]

Grandmaster Doo Wai would like to personally thanks those two shifus for raising the controversy here concerning our system on a well-known kung fu forum. Their controversy concerning our system's forms as sloopy BAK MIE has increased the sales of our DVDs, school enrollment, and inquiries into our system. And for this, the BAK FU PAI (White Tiger Gung Fu) family is grateful and Grandmaster Doo Wai wants to personal thank Shifu Parrella and Shifu Ross.

in only 3 days worth of posts, whereby in almost every case you guys avoid answering questions about anything, and are repeatedly shown to be totally inconsistent in your statements, you have had a noticeable increase in DVD sales as well as hosts of people flocking to your school?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It must have been that recently added amazing performance of straight sword on your site that captivated them (which, BTW, was about the sadest, poorest performance of gim I have ever seen, and anyone affiliated with that deomonstration ought to be ashamed of themselves for posting it; and don't try the "you don't know anything about internal sword work" - sorry, it happens to be one of my areas of specialization...)

oh, but I do believe the part about the increased inquiries: you've probably had a lot of people contacting you to ask questions like, "Are you guys serious?" and "Is this crap for real?"

nice try IM...next time stick to posting about your knee replacement (which you never even answered my question about, still...) or how I need to enter the secret password to find out about GM DW's clandestine UCSDSM activities...

[lkfmdc]

Their controversy concerning our system's forms as sloopy BAK MIE has increased the sales of our DVDs, school enrollment, and inquiries into our system.



You have to understand math to understand why this is true

1. one more DVd sold this month, representing a 100% increase in monthly DVD sales

2. They received three emails this month, representing a 50% increase in email traffic

3. And the one student that joined the school increased the enrollment by 25%

next step of course is to call the university and check up on him

Oh, and Pacific Institute, a nationally accreditted TCM institute, is in San Diego, I wonder what they know about Doo Wai ....

[Ironman]

you mean, like why someone thought that at the age of 24 they needed a total knee replacement?

still waiting for a crazy answer on that one...:rolleyes:

Dude, did you read my comment closely?....geez again. I said that I thought I needed (would need) knee replacement and if not then, maybe sometime in the future. I am not a medical doctor and do not have any training in that area. Do you? Have you been to medical school? Geez. I have seen a lot of crippled martial artists out there who did not get the benefit of dit da knowledge or herbal medicine. And I am very fortunate this information is in our system. Is it part of your system? And if so, great. "Remember the proof is in the results"

[Reality_Check]

Reality_check-



I said the same thing to Doo Wai back at the old Southern Fist Board. The response given was that it is written in a ancestral book by the Doo family. This kind of circular reasoning kinda reminds me of religion.

Ah...I remember those days. Having a discussion with Doo Wai and Dr. Harout (when it didn't consist of insults thrown in my direction) was like an out of body experience. Good times.




There are a lot of clips of chi gung (qigong) on Youtube showing some old gung fu masters demonstrating the results of their chi cultivation. Do a search they are not hard to find. There is even a Shifu John Chang on there using his chi energy to light some newspaper on fire and there are other demos of real chi gung and there is fake stuff there too.

A video (or videos) on Youtube does not constitute evidence of your claim.

This:




And for this, the BAK FU PAI (White Tiger Gung Fu) family is grateful and Grandmaster Doo Wai wants to personal thank Shifu Parrella and Shifu Ross.

does not seem to comport with this:




Leave those Lima Kung fu guys alone, they are nobodys. Whether they said our forms are sloppy Bak Mie or whatever, it doesn't matter because we know who we are, the intellegent people will know that the empty vase make the most noise. Those that are real authentic kung fu shifus that know kung fu will not waste their time complaining about someone elses' form on Youtube. The fact that they even took the time to call us sloppy Bak Mie proves that they are really insecure, and the reason for being insecure is they know that they are amatures out their claiming to be shifus. Real Shifus will never waste their time talking about someone elses forms, unless they feel threatened by them. Their opinion doesn't help us or harm us, we are a established system.




Dude, did you read my comment closely?....geez again. I said that I thought I needed (would need) knee replacement and if not then, maybe sometime in the future. I am not a medical doctor and do not have any training in that area. Do you?

Yes, you did say that. And Chris posted the following:




why did you think that you needed "knee replacement sugery"? did an orthopedist tell you that?

You never answered. It would seem Chris' reading comprehension skills are not at issue. Your's on the other hand...

Also, Chris Jurak is a trained physical therapist (hence the "pt" in his forum name).

[Ronin maximus]

Is it just me or does this "GM" Doo Wai moves look like that other
Kung Fraud "Spirit Mountain Kung FU?:D

[Ironman]

I believe I answered both Chris' questions, in my last post. But I will provide more details now. First, why would a lay person think he needs a knee replacement? The answer is because of the severe pain, stiffness, lack of movement, etc. At that time for example, I had severe pain in my knees especially when going up and down steps stairs, etc. I went to an orthopedist and he gave me anti-inflammatory medication which I took for several months and I did not feel any better. The orthopedist told me I might need TKR in the future if the symptoms continue. Afterwards, I met Grandmaster Doo Wai, he sold me some Bak Fu Pai dit da jow and I do not have any knee problems today. As a matter of fact I sell BFP dit da jow. It is an excellent remedy for a variety of muscle and bone related injuries.

[Reality_Check]

I believe I answered both Chris' questions, in my last post. But I will provide more details now. First, why would a lay person think he needs a knee replacement? The answer is because of the severe pain, stiffness, lack of movement, etc. At that time for example, I had severe pain in my knees especially when going up and down steps stairs, etc. I went to an orthopedist and he gave me anti-inflammatory medication which I took for several months and I did not feel any better. The orthopedist told me I might need TKR in the future if the symptoms continue. Afterwards, I met Grandmaster Doo Wai, he sold me some Bak Fu Pai dit da jow and I do not have any knee problems today. As a matter of fact I sell BFP dit da jow. It is an excellent remedy for a variety of muscle and bone related injuries.

Thank you for the answer. Although, I am curious as to why it took several pages and two days for you to actually answer the questions posed by Chris. On a side note, I had the same symptoms you did. I also went the anti-inflammatory route. In my case, as in yours, they didn't work. As it turned out, I had a partially torn patellar tendon which required surgery. No amount of dit da jow would have healed that. Fortunately for you, your knee problems were much less severe.

Now, as that is out of the way, please feel free to address my supposition re: the relationship between Bak Fu Pai and Bak Mei. I would also appreciate some comments regarding the following.

From a 1990 article in Ancient Sets of Kung Fu, authored by GM Doo Wai:

"Bok Fu Pai (White Tiger) Kung Fu, has been conserved in a most traditional way, it was handed down from father to son until now. From Fung Doe Duk, the secret of White Tiger Kung Fu was passed to Kwong Wai Jung, then to Jok Wan Jung, then to Yee Too Jung then to Wou Shan Jie, a monk whom in exchange for food and lodging taught the White Tiger System to Doo Kow, whom in turn passed it down to his son the present head of the system, Grandmaster Doo Wai.
In 1968 Grandmaster Doo Wai came to the United States, settling on the West Coast where he still resides and teaches but a few privately."

In Bak Mei's lineage, Kwong Wai learned from Bak Mei and, in turn, taught Juk Fat Wan. If Bak Fu Pai is separate from Bak Mei, why are these two in it's lineage? In addition this would seem to contradict lineage trees on other Bak Fu Pai websites that list Doo Tin Yin as having learned from Fung Doe Duk. I hope that you, or Dr. Harout, can clear up this inconsistency.

Also, I was hoping you or Dr. Harout would address the similarities (i.e. how they are almost identical) between Bak Fu Pai's Chum Bo Kuen and Bak Mei's Jik Bo Kuen (please see my first post on page 13 of this thread for a visual aid).

Thank you, in advance, for your replies.

[cjurakpt]

I believe I answered both Chris' questions, in my last post. But I will provide more details now. First, why would a lay person think he needs a knee replacement? The answer is because of the severe pain, stiffness, lack of movement, etc. At that time for example, I had severe pain in my knees especially when going up and down steps stairs, etc. I went to an orthopedist and he gave me anti-inflammatory medication which I took for several months and I did not feel any better. The orthopedist told me I might need TKR in the future if the symptoms continue. Afterwards, I met Grandmaster Doo Wai, he sold me some Bak Fu Pai dit da jow and I do not have any knee problems today. As a matter of fact I sell BFP dit da jow. It is an excellent remedy for a variety of muscle and bone related injuries.

sounds like a typical visit to the ortho: NSAIDS and see ya later; but it still proves my point, which was that you didn't actually need a knee replacment at that time, regardless of what the ortho thought that you "might" need in the future (and for him to say that, IMHO, was innappropriate, BTW, for a number of reasons, but that's another discussion...); so while you may have genuinely believed that you needed a TKR at that point, i am telling you that if you had actually met the proper diagnostic criteria for one, the jow would not have made a difference at all; so GM DW's jow etc. was not a miracle cure; it basically did what jow is supposed to do: decrease inflammation locally (also, I wonder if he had you alter your activity regimen at all, or gave you some exercises to do for your knees...); therefore, all we can say about GM DW based on you as an example, is that his healing skill is typical, as opposed to extraordinary

still waiting for the skinny on the lecture tour...

[Reality_Check]

still waiting for the skinny on the lecture tour...

This is the only "evidence" that I can seem to find:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:fGEBzvB3yMIJ:doowaibfp.forumup.org/post-1862-doowaibfp.html+ucsd+%22doo+wai%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4




...I gave a lecture at UCSD medical center...

I apologize for the Google cache link. The original message on Doo Wai's forum has been deleted.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

OMG, I'm so sick and tired of listening to Ironman, Harut and Doo,...what a bunch of tools!

The stories, the lies, the 'video clips'. It's just soooo ridiculous.

They don't like our opinions regarding Doo's video clips.

Then they start making claims which they NEVER provide any info for. Listing a bunch of teachers in a line (which belongs primarily to another style) mean nothing. NO ONE ELSE BESIDES THESE GUYS DOES, OR EVER HEARD OF THIS STYLE? PEOPLE, USE YOUR COMMON SENSE. WHAT DOES THAT SOUND LIKE TO YOU? S - C - A - M - M - E - R - S !

They start tell us about Doo's Wonder Medicine and how it healed Ironman and prevented him from getting Total Reconstructive Knee surgery, which under duress, we find out he only THINKS he needed. He then retorts with "well how do I know, I'm not a doctor!"


Well, I've not been diagnosed with cancer, but I think I had it, but my teachers snake oil juice and his healing spirit got rid of my cancer. No...I wasn't diagnosed with it, but I felt pain and the medicine I took in the past didn't seem to work. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Then the best part it, he's pumping it up BECAUSE HE SELLS IT!!! Talk about yer objective opinions here...

And then the part about Doo thanking me and Dave Ross...for increasing their DVD sales and traffic to their 'school.' UG...I am so mad at myself for helping them. How could I fall into this well-layed mental trap of theirs. Here I thought I was searching for the truth, and possibly exposing a bunch of frauds, while instead, I inadvertantly helped them. I can't believe I was tricked with mental-fu. I suppose that the Doo family were also psychiastrists to the Emperor of the Tang Dynastys Royal Family as well. :eek: :confused:

And I emplore all the readers here to look at their message boards. It's a f*cking joke! More so then their posts here.

And did Ironman just tell us that he or his teacher can hit us with a 'hot-Chi-punch' from across the room? Ninja please...

And that people he knows can start a fire and burn stuff from their Chi? Where are these guys? They should be on TV's survivor - during the begining of every season when they haven't earned/won the materials they need to make fire. They should just have Doo or these other mystical Chinese Chi-Blast Masters.

And why does Doo and these guys use the word "SHIFU" which is a mandarin term and then in the same sentance use BOK FU PAI which is Cantonese. It's info like these that make me think that Doo isn't even posting here. It's probably just a few of his monkeys trying to preach their phony gospel.

IMO - Doo Wai is scamming people by saying that BFP is some old style which he is the head of . It's clearly (to me) some Bok Mei derivative. The forms were changed and renamed. And frankly, that's okay with me. Everyone has the right to add or subtract and pass on what they learned, in any matter which they see fit. No problem there. It's when people LIE about doing that and try to pass stuff off with a fake history and stories to gain credibility. That is where the problem is.

IMO - All the coconut break videos are fakes. I've broken coconuts and a bunch of other materials. They are not too hard to break, but I still feel that the videos are completely fake. Doo bounces the coconut 3" onto a carpet floor (I'm not exaggerating) to show how strong it is, and rolls it around a bit. It is obviously 'wet' which he points out as well, but he says how it's not 'leaking'. Here is the kicker; HE NEVER TURNS THE COCONUT UPSIDE DOWN. It's just such bullsh1t.

I said Doo's form looked like sloppy Bok Mei. To me, it does. I'm not saying he's the worst practitioner I've ever seen, but I have seldom seen worse from a Chinese guy claiming to be a living Grandmaster. He flais his arms around and has no stance whatsoever. And it doesn't matter what style you do, it's very easy for anyone to tell - he's just not very good. And that again, is okay. Not everyone is great, some people are just so-so. I don't begrudge him of that. It's just that since he is not good at Bok Mei, he can make up a new name and use Bok Mei tech. When a Bok Mei person critiques him, he can say - what do you know? This is Bok Fu pai, it's different that Bok Mei. The sames rules don't apply. My sloppy bok mei is really high-level skilled bok fu pai! (Sticking tongue out at bok mei critic)

These guys are exactly what's WRONG with TCMA today. And if these guys don't like my opinions, or my words, they can kiss my a$$. That includes Doo as well, if he truly is behind these posts. He should be ashamed of himself.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

This is the only "evidence" that I can seem to find:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:fGEBzvB3yMIJ:doowaibfp.forumup.org/post-1862-doowaibfp.html+ucsd+%22doo+wai%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4



I apologize for the Google cache link. The original message on Doo Wai's forum has been deleted.

WOW, anyone notice QUITE a difference in the posting styles of DOO on this board, and the posting styles of DOO on his own board..hhmmmmm

One guy writes in fairly proper English, the other in foreigner-English. What does THAT sound like to everyone????

[Reality_Check]

I've actually brought that up in the past. On the old Southern Fist board, I asked GM Doo Wai why his writing style is so different from the way he speaks. He speaks perfect, accentless English. However, his writing is atrocious.

I never did receive a reply.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

OMG!

You have got to read this. It's insane. I actually think that they are posting, pretending to be Jim Lacey - who is posting neg. sh1t about them on their forum. I really think they are making all this stuff up - and creating posts by Jim Lacey to have an imaginary opponent to fight with.

This is really some unbelievable sh1t. I've never seen anything like this...LOL

Enjoy: http://doowaibfp.forumup.org/about460-doowaibfp.html

Lets start some kind of fundraiser to get these guys to get under the care of some mental health professionals. I seriously didn't realize what these guys were about until I read thier forum (who has 19 members, consisting of the guys who are posting here)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I've actually brought that up in the past. On the old Southern Fist board, I asked GM Doo Wai why his writing style is so different from the way he speaks. He speaks perfect, accentless English. However, his writing is atrocious.

I never did receive a reply.

Reality Check,

Did you read the post on their forum, where Jim Lacey is claiming to be YOU??? This is soo twisted....

[Reality_Check]

Yes, that forum is a tad...off. Also, I believe that the posters "Bak Fu Pai" and "Grandmaster Doo Wai" are the same person. The writing styles (including misspellings) are too similar for coincidence. Which means, Doo Wai is having conversations with himself on that board. I suppose that is an easy way to reach a consensus.

[Reality_Check]

Reality Check,

Did you read the post on their forum, where Jim Lacey is claiming to be YOU??? This is soo twisted....

Yes, that seems to be a rather transparent attempt to discredit me (I doubt that is really Jim Lacy, it just seems too convenient). Which, naturally, makes me suspect that my comments earlier in this thread hit a little too close to home.

[Reality_Check]

http://doowaibfp.forumup.org/about461-doowaibfp.html




Reality check, you are a moron, from the video clips everyone knows grandmaster doo wai has accentless english.
Are you claiming you spoked to Grandmaster Doo Wai ?

Ah...this brings back memories of Southern Fist.

My comment was:




He speaks perfect, accentless English.

Apparently, reading comprehension is not a Bak Fu Pai skill.

[cjurakpt]

"Bak Fu Pai Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: That Lima Kung fu shifu moron is fantasizing that he is a movie producer. He gotta get a life instead of feeling insecure when someone he doesn't even know or met does a fast kung fu form. That shows he is nothing but a wannabee that can talk a lot of talk and has a school. He is the con man."

Well Mike, I guess that says it all: you obviously fantasized your entire relationship with Lau Kar Leung, and you're obviously a wannabe con man (with a school, to boot)..waita minute..I think I know where GC went to post now...

oh, BTW, we all know that you have never actually been to Peru, so obviously you can't know authentic "Lima" style kung fu...

[cjurakpt]

Oh! I'm infamous! They posted my comment about the gim set on their forum!

"Karma.
Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: Ha Ha Haaa Mr. Sword expert.
It must have been that recently added amazing performance of straight sword on your site that captivated them (which, BTW, was about the sadest, poorest performance of gim I have ever seen, and anyone affiliated with that deomonstration ought to be ashamed of themselves for posting it; and don't try the "you don't know anything about internal sword work" - sorry, it happens to be one of my areas of specialization...)
Ha ha Ha Haaaa Mr. Sword expert, yeah Ok Mr. sword expert and know it all. Mr. cjurakpt a sword expert that has the right to judge Bak Fu Pai forms. If he was a expert he won't be complaining about other people's sword form. No expert as egotistic as that."

I would have replied to this directly on their forum, but I wanted for someone to actually read it...

so:
1) I never said I was an expert: I said that gim is an area of specialization for me, meaning that I have above average knowledge in that area, cerrtainly enough to know when I see something that is far below average...

2) I'm not judging a BFP form: I'm judging gim technique, which is, even across many different styles, fairly uniform, due essentialy to the nature of the weapon, its intrinsic characteristics; and there are some major problems with this form: DW's stances are non-existent, he doesn't even look at what he's doing half the time, and he waves the gim around in a way that has nothing to do with how it is applied in fighting; and what's with that bizarre switching from regular to reverse grip and back? sorry guys, he should have looked at a few more DVD's before he went out and made up his own sad little routine...

3) Im not complaining about it: if I was compaining, it would mean that somehow the form is having a negative impact on my life, and I'd have said something like "Geez, watching that form made me break out in hives, I wish they would take it down."; I'm not complainnig - I'm just saying it's bad, pure and simple;

4) these guys are so funny: if I hadn't said anything about my background in gim, they'd have been like "what can you know about it, Mr. External- hard style, non-straight sword knowing person?"; when I qualify my response, then it's "you can't be an expert because an expert is ego-less"; well, I don't know where you get your reasoning from, but expert and egoless have absolutely nothing to do with each other: Hui Neng, the Sixth Zen Patriarch, was an illiterate peasant, and expert at nothing, and he "got it" without any training at all ("No mirror, no dust, etc.") - likewise, we all know plenty of experts who are way full of themselves...anyway, I am neither expert nor egoless: but I do know crap when I see it...

and so does anyone else with half a clue: so let them judge for themselves...

http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

[Reality_Check]

To quote what a wise man once said:

"ouch!

coffin, meet last nail..."

[cjurakpt]

Score: BFP guys 100 points / Fake Beitch guys 0 points:D :D :D :D

yeah, 100 CRAZY points...

[pakhok]

Sorry it is me again :) just curious about Lima Pai style? Is it ancient or new one?
Who the Founder is? :D

And last clip with sword is great, great perfomance with happyending, performer stayed alive :) I hope

Yesterday my Chi was good and I make few pushups with one iron finger :) (the rest iron pcs I will not mention)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEtuziPHQA

Really this is great thread, but Tibet WON in final score :)

regards,
Green Peace member,
"Let's protect animals" is one of our missions :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

All I have to say is; HOLY SH1T! Did you see this clip?


I actually don't know what to say....expect for this is literally the WORST demonstration of Gim I HAVE EVER EVER SEEN.

Probably one of the more pathetic performances of a weapon I have ever seen...

[cjurakpt]

I actually don't know what to say....expect for this is literally the WORST demonstration of Gim I HAVE EVER EVER SEEN.

and who do you think YOU are, to say such things about BFP, Mr. Sword-Expert #2?????

but I bet that it did make you want to go pour acid in your eyes, right?




And last clip with sword is great, great perfomance with happyending, performer stayed alive :) I hope

ha! PRICELESS!!! good one PH...

[lkfmdc]

http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

All I have to say is; HOLY SH1T! Did you see this clip?



oh dear lord! :eek:

well, that raises the score

Lima Lama Shihfu 10,000
BFP cult -7

[Lama Pai Sifu]

How the hell did they get "7"?

[Fu-Pau]

Anybody that has done real Chinese martial arts for any significant amount of time can see that this Doo Wai has some fundamental problems with the way he moves.
Its not a your style vs. our style argument. Its more fundamental than that. All good martial arts share the common goal of moving like "steel wrapped in cotton." They might not all agree exactly on how to get there, but the basics body requirements/principles of movement remain the same.

Probably the most useful comment that has been made in this entire thread. Well said.

[lkfmdc]

How the hell did they get "7"?

-7

it was a NEGATIVE seven mike :D

[Faruq]

Has anyone that's posted actually bothered to view the clip in slow-motion, or to ask around any local Chinatown community if anyone's ever heard of Bak Fu Pai (not Doo Wai) is taught in China, if so where, and by who?

[MasterKiller]

I like his funny hats.

[brothernumber9]

That clip posted by pakhok is the funniest thing I've seen since Bobby Batronic. That ish was hella funny.

[CLFLPstudent]

Those BFP guys are so insecure about themselves. They delete every post on their 'forum' that questions them. I would really be surprised if any of them come back here after the walloping they took here.

Exactly 30 seconds after I posted on their forum my post was gone - and 1 or 2 that had been posted before me were gone too.

If you BFP guys are so sure of yourselves and invite us to your forum - why do post's dissappear?

But I guess that will be just one more question that will be danced around and never full answered.

-David

[pakhok]

It was a hat???
I thought it was a helmet to protect himself against his sword :D

[brothernumber9]

I thought he was a French Arteeest!

[lkfmdc]

it's hysterical to see, in this day and age, them trying to play the "race card"... as if non Chinese can't be educated enough to see the many inconsistencies and illogic in what they claim? As if non Chinese shouldn't "dare" to question "the master" :rolleyes:

Some of us, who will remain nameless, actually speak some Chinese and can actually read and write some of it... some of us, gasp, have advanced degrees in East Asian Studies and know Chinese history "and stuff" ;)

By the way, I was in Shanghia in Dec 2001. That's when the case happened. The Miao family is located in Zhou Shan island which is south (south east?) of Shanghai but north in Ningpo. China does not have it's legal database on line like the US, but getting the info isn't impossible....

[brothernumber9]

Or maybe one of the Rice Krispies guys.

[CLFLPstudent]

Ahh - now they are responding on their forum to the posts we make here......


really sad. And yes, Dr. Harout did invite us over there mr Bak Fu Pai.

-David

[lkfmdc]

Ahh - now they are responding on their forum to the posts we make here......



Of course, like most cults, they only feel safe in their own little world... where they can delete anything that shows them for what they are....

but if they aren't posting here, mission accomplished :p

[Faruq]

Ross, since you have access to info that most here don't, have you investigated if Bak Fu Pai is currently taught anywhere in China, if so where, and who teaches it? I've been told that it is taught in China, but there's no way I could get newspaper articles or any other written proof. If I did get it, I wouldn't be able to read it anyway.


By the way, I was in Shanghia in Dec 2001. That's when the case happened. The Miao family is located in Zhou Shan island which is south (south east?) of Shanghai but north in Ningpo. China does not have it's legal database on line like the US, but getting the info isn't impossible....

[lkfmdc]

I think all the evidence you need to make an educated opinion on Doo Wai and his BFP is his straight sword performace (gag) and his "interesting" forum :eek: Honestly, if there is some BFP in China, we can only hope it is NOT like what they are doing, for the sake of humanity ;)

[Reality_Check]

Ross, since you have access to info that most here don't, have you investigated if Bak Fu Pai is currently taught anywhere in China, if so where, and who teaches it? I've been told that it is taught in China, but there's no way I could get newspaper articles or any other written proof. If I did get it, I wouldn't be able to read it anyway.

A simple Google search only turns up links to Doo Wai, his students, and his disowned students. All of them are in the United States. I have found nothing from outside of the US. If there is Bak Fu Pai in China, they really seem to keep quiet about it.

Of course, I could be wrong, and I would be thrilled for Doo Wai or his students here to post a link to a school in China. Or answer some of the questions posted in this thread. However, I suspect that is simply wishful thinking on my part.

[ablinkin]

ok, I hate to even post, since I have like less than a half dozen posts and will be instantly looked upon as a Doo Wai "follower", I looked at the videos, everyone of them I slowed down with Quicktime, all seem fairly rigged you can see lines at the top of the coconut. We have a TKD "master" here in my town that breaks bricks with his forehead, and they are not "rigged" but he refused to spar with my sifu's old sifu. My point is, who gives a crap what he can break or if he can beat up on one of his students, they will only do what he has taught them and should be predictable to him, right? My sifu would kill me in a fight, his proof is in fighting another style or on the street. Personally I agree with pretty much everyone else here........he is far from a grand master....but that is just my opinion,
and BTW why would you start a d@mn thread only to not answer the d@mn questions....L0z3r

[ablinkin]

I found this
Gene Wai Doo, MD
1380 Lusitana St Suite 1007
Honolulu, HI 96813


does that count? :)

[lkfmdc]

all this reminds me of a song

"Wai Doo fools fall for bak fu......" :D

[ablinkin]

OMG lkfmdc,
that was freaking funny!

[Faruq]

Thanks for the effort, but I have no interest in proving or disproving anything about Doo Wai. I've got my own personal opinion, as does everyone on the forum. I'm just asking about the style, Bak Fu Pai. And in regard to BFP, so far I've only seen people's opinions, and no one doing any actual research. No one even bothered to watch Doo's form in slow-motion.

One interesting thing however, I've heard lots of people say the 5 Elder history (which is in the history of many arts in some form or fashion) is from the Evergreen Chronicles, while I've always considered it more likely that the author of the Chronicles got it from Triad folklore. Then Ross not only tells us Miu Hing was a real guy, but that his descendants are known in China, and where they are. Who would of thunk it?


A simple Google search only turns up links to Doo Wai, his students, and his disowned students. All of them are in the United States. I have found nothing from outside of the US. If there is Bak Fu Pai in China, they really seem to keep quiet about it.

Of course, I could be wrong, and I would be thrilled for Doo Wai or his students here to post a link to a school in China. Or answer some of the questions posted in this thread. However, I suspect that is simply wishful thinking on my part.

[Faruq]

I really don't want to get involved in the Doo Wai controversy. You say "if there is BFP in China...", and that's really the extent of my interest. Since you found Miu Hin's ancestors, I was hoping you'd be able to find out if BFP is taught in China or not, if so where, and by whom.


I think all the evidence you need to make an educated opinion on Doo Wai and his BFP is his straight sword performace (gag) and his "interesting" forum :eek: Honestly, if there is some BFP in China, we can only hope it is NOT like what they are doing, for the sake of humanity ;)

[lkfmdc]

I didn't really go out and find one of Miu Tin/Miao Tian's ancestors, I was just married to one previously.... you know, one of those Chinese that I met once :rolleyes:

[CLFLPstudent]

I found this in Tibetan section
http://members.tripod.com/~tibetan/chikung.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~tibetan/ch-cat-a.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~tibetan/ch-cat-b.htm


Oddly enough - or not - none of the links work on those websites......:rolleyes:

-David

[Faruq]

China does not have it's legal database on line like the US, but getting the info isn't impossible....I didn't really go out and find one of Miu Tin/Miao Tian's ancestors, I was just married to one previously.... you know, one of those Chinese that I met once

You say it's not impossible, but I bet it'd be pretty darn near impossible for someone who doesn't read Cantonese. I mean you do read and write like 5 dialects of Chinese, and you can't even get it. lol.

[Yum Cha]

This may be of interest concerning "White something or the other...."

http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=13

I've seen Doo Wai as a young man on video, offering to sell the complete Pak Mei system for only $30,000. According to the video, only he had the right to do so, and he went on to do some demos with whom I believe are Lacy and his other cohort, who's name escapes me. Whatcha bet, somebody ripped somebody off???

Same stuff, flailing arms, no footwork, no power, and I bet, he can't even do it the same way twice....

He can talk some talk for sure...I know some good people who got sucked in, most realised it eventually.

[lkfmdc]

For the most part, you don't read Cantonese, you read CHINESE, with pretty much Mandarin grammar... very few people use local grammar and vocabulary in written form

[Yao Sing]

I avoided this thread for the longest time but after seeing the other thread with the gim clip I decided to wade through it for some background.

I haven't looked at the website but I'm guessing he only teaches out in San Diego?

I have a friend out there I can track down and see what he knows about it but based on the gim clip it's eather very deep underground or very well known (but not in a good way).

One thing I'm wondeering about all this is does anyone think this thread will reach "Is Shaolin Do For Real" size?

About the gim clip, he must have very high skill. Notice how he manages to move about without ever tripping over that long sash hanging from his waist.

Also, when you slow it down you will see that the movement of the sword tip traces out the characters for "not Bak Mei, I swear".

Oh, and lkfmdc, I think your song reference is incorrectly attributed to Doo Wai. You're confusing him with his brother Doo Wop.

[Faruq]

Boy, you guys are pretty bitter. Yao Sing's comment about slowing the Gim clip down was pretty sarcastic, seeing how slow it was. Come on man, I'm not saying anything for or against Doo Wai, but I do believe BFP is actually being taught in China based on the little info I've been able to get out of Chinatown friends. I don't know if it looks like what Doo Wai has shown or not, and don't care since I have no interest in Doo Wai, but rather in filling the vacuum of information that exists about BFP with something other than you guys' opinions.

And as far as Yao Sing's comment, the only reason I made the comment about the empty hand form is because it was too fast to see what was going on. People put clips of other sifus up to compare, but I've yet to see another sifu get off 108 strikes in 44 seconds, to have something to judge it against. I can see why you guys have a low opinion of the form though, I'm not blind. But on my part, I made out clear techniques when I viewed it in slow motion.

And Ross, that's all you're gonna give me? The comment about Chinese being read rather than Cantonese? Be a little more generous than that. I can't read Chinese, and have never been married to anyone in a family of martial royalty (and I think anyone that said Miu Hin wasn't martial royalty would be lying). LOL.

But seriously, I'm starting to get lambasted for my pretty neutral posts, so I'm gonna leave it alone. Plus, I'm a newcomer anyway, so I'll leave this thread to you guys with seniority.

Peace

[MAC]

Gawd ! This is like a bad daytime soap ! You can go away for days, come back and you havent missed anything new. Just more and more and more of the same.

Here's an idea - why dont the 3 righteous torch-bearers each post direct links to samples of their forms, maybe a weapons form too. And since they are the real masters, I'd love to see some fight clips of each of them. They're so eager to show the bad ... fine .... now show us the good (maybe later I can show you the ugly ). ...so slap some stuff out on YouTube and post the links.
Thank you !

[Yum Cha]

Faruq

You're right. You're right to wonder why so many people with seniority and respectability are saying, who is this guy, and how does he pass that off as "mastery".

[mung foo]

Faruq-
And as far as Yao Sing's comment, the only reason I made the comment about the empty hand form is because it was too fast to see what was going on. People put clips of other sifus up to compare, but I've yet to see another sifu get off 108 strikes in 44 seconds, to have something to judge it against. I can see why you guys have a low opinion of the form though, I'm not blind. But on my part, I made out clear techniques when I viewed it in slow motion.


This is a simple equation that show the value of the techniques you mentioned.

108 x 0 = 0

Does it matter if he can move his arms 108 times in 44 seconds if not one of them shows power, intent, ging...?

[CFT]

OK, not proper research, only Googling. But I searched for "Baak Fu Paai" on Google using Chinese characters. I gave up after 8 pages, but all I got was a load of links for a TV series about a Korean criminal society called "Baak Fu Paai".

So this style must be ultra-secret with no web exposure at all.

Here is the search I used. Maybe someone can carry on after page 8, but I kinda doubt there is anything.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22%E7%99%BD%E8%99%8E%E6%B4%BE%22&btnG=Google+Search

Even when I was looking for info on the rarely practiced Lau Gar Kuen (Liujia quan, not the Hung Gar subset stuff) I found online newspaper reports about it. I'm am pretty sure no-one in modern day China is hiding their stuff. People need to make a living and if they have kung fu they will teach it. Maybe not all of it publicly but they should have a presence.

And the sword form video? You don't need to practice the gim to see that the practitioner is not in control of the sword, but that the sword is leading the man. Notice how shaky the control is when he transitions to the reverse grip? Too wide, too open. Where is the gate coverage?

[B-Rad]

People put clips of other sifus up to compare, but I've yet to see another sifu get off 108 strikes in 44 seconds, to have something to judge it against.

You don't see people responding because it's a silly arguement. Most teachers aren't going to sacrafice power and structure just to record a fast video clip. Most forms aren't designed to be rush rush rush, and yes, you can get in a hell of a lot of hand movements if you ignore proper footwork and don't put power behind it. Though, still, in many styles even though the form overall is suposed to be at a slower pace, you can find guys getting off 3 or 4 hand strikes in a 1 second period (just check out a fanzi quan form, for example).

Another fast hands clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuH-GYUHyQw

[B-Rad]

More fast hands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzP5upM5Sc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-WWHK0tR04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHyRx2kiu8o

:p

[pakhok]

And this too :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDAQ68GzuO8