LauGar KungFu Origins - any evidence?

[DaveTart]

I know this has been mentioned on and off in passing, but there didn't seem to be any real discussion of this.

All kungfu styles tend to have a muddled history, such is the nature of the beast, but LauGar seems to be more muddled than most. I am talking about the style as taught by Jeremy Yau, and spread across the country since the 70's.
(for anyone who cares, I originally trained under Kevin Brewerton in the 90's and I've trained in both BKFA and non-BKFA clubs)

The "facts"* I have seen are:

1) Lau Gar Kuen is derived from a form of boxing practiced at Kuei Ling Temple situated in Kong Sai Province in west China. It was learned from a monk on retreat from that temple by the master "Three Eyed Lau", a tiger hunter, whom we honour as founder of our style. The style subsequently became popular over a large part of South West China.
source: http://www.laugar-kungfu.com/history.htm

however:
2) The Bejing University of Martial Arts have never heard of it.

3a) Various HungGar sites claim that their style absorbed two forms "laugar gwan" and "laugar kuen" so as to stop the style dying out (implying it's died out elsewhere).

3b) Other HungGar sites claim that the "laugar kuen" is actually a MokGar form, and "laugar gwan" is actually from Southern Mantis. They are called "laugar" because the person who brought them into the style was called "lau".

4)Master Yau came here in about 1965 (i think).
He worked in various jobs, including I believe a chinese resturant.
During this time he did not really teach, but practiced either solo or with one or two others. More and more people started to get interested and the numbers slowly grew.

Then in 1973 Mike Haig (editor & founder of "Combat Magazine")and several of Master Yau's students thought it a good idea to formalise their training by asking Master Yau to setup the British Kung Fu Association.
This he did so, and with a group of his most senior students started to structure and create a more formal system. They took the training methods and the forms Master Yau taught and created the syllabus roughly as we know it today.

5) The inimation that the above implies Yau took things from other systems and adapted them for his style.

So.... does anyone have anything else to say about LauGar? Is the BKFA's LauGar the LauGar family style from the ancient temples? Did Master Yau make it all up as he went along? Could it be there are many "Lau" styles out there, not neccessarily connected?

In short, does anyone have any actual evidence or do we have to go on hearsay?

And before I get jumped on by all the BKFA lot, I'm not trying to discredit Master Yau - I'm trying to find out about where the style comes from. Lineage of all the forms, and so on.






*The reason i say "facts" in quote marks is that not a single one has sited a source so it's all anecdotal evidence, alot of it i've gleaned from what people have said on internet forums.

[mok]

3a) Various HungGar sites claim that their style absorbed two forms "laugar gwan" and "laugar kuen" so as to stop the style dying out (implying it's died out elsewhere).

3b) Other HungGar sites claim that the "laugar kuen" is actually a MokGar form, and "laugar gwan" is actually from Southern Mantis. They are called "laugar" because the person who brought them into the style was called "lau".


Just a clarification about the (3b) part - which BTW is coming from the horse's mouth (Lam family, as the sets were included under Lam Jo) - the claim is that the Lau Ga kuen and Lau Ga Gwun as taught within Hung Ga, are not Lau Ga, but as you said from a Mok Ga guy whose name was Lau. It does not however dispute or say anything about the Lau Ga style outside of Hung Kuen.

While it is anectdotal evidence, to my knowledge the other southern styles recognize there is such a thing as Lau Ga. The five families (Hung, Choy, Mok, Li, Lau) are pretty famous and at least 3 (to my limited knowledge) are alive and kicking so I really don't see why one of them would be fictitous? But I agree it is a bit of mistery where the style has gone in china, and why it seems so rare? Good luck and let us know what you can find out.

cheers

mok

[DaveTart]

Just a clarification about the (3b) part - which BTW is coming from the horse's mouth (Lam family, as the sets were included under Lam Jo) - the claim is that the Lau Ga kuen and Lau Ga Gwun as taught within Hung Ga, are not Lau Ga, but as you said from a Mok Ga guy whose name was Lau. It does not however dispute or say anything about the Lau Ga style outside of Hung Kuen.

Do you have a source for that? I tried googling it but couldn't get far.
And that is actually very helpful info. It explains why the LauGar Kuen I've seen performed by HungGar guys (there are a few on YouTube) looks nothing like our style.
If HungGar's Lau forms were from that original temple style (which it seems they aren't) then it would take alot of explaining as to why it looks nothing like the style we do!


While it is anectdotal evidence, to my knowledge the other southern styles recognize there is such a thing as Lau Ga. The five families (Hung, Choy, Mok, Li, Lau) are pretty famous and at least 3 (to my limited knowledge) are alive and kicking so I really don't see why one of them would be fictitous? But I agree it is a bit of mistery where the style has gone in china, and why it seems so rare? Good luck and let us know what you can find out.

I didn't mean to imply LauGar is fictitious. I meant more that is the style I do directly from the five family styles, or something else?
Without any additional evidence, it's hard to say.

[Wong Ying Home]

Lau Gar Kuen , is still being taught in Hong Kong, it is very much underground and kept within the family so to speak. A person would have to go to Hong kong and join the family if you get my meaning with no guarntee of learning.;)

I am v good friends with Jeremy Yau's cousin who grandfather was the Grandmaster of the system, so know what is still available out in Hong Kong.

[mok]

Do you have a source for that? I tried googling it but couldn't get far.


Well this was from the old SouthernFist forum which sadly is no more, so I'm afraid I can't pull the link up. However the gentleman who told this was sifu Micahel Goodwin from San Francisco who is pretty easy to find and is active on other forums elsewhere. IMO Sifu Goodwin is pretty knowledgeable and a reliable source of info, as well as a direct student of Lam Jo.

[DaveTart]

Lau Gar Kuen , is still being taught in Hong Kong, it is very much underground and kept within the family so to speak. A person would have to go to Hong kong and join the family if you get my meaning with no guarntee of learning.;)

I am v good friends with Jeremy Yau's cousin who grandfather was the Grandmaster of the system, so know what is still available out in Hong Kong.

Thats all well and good, but doesn't explain why the Bejing Institute of Martial Arts has never heard of it. Is it really *that* underground?

Any chance you can press him for info? I'd love to know more about what is taught over there, lineage etc. and how it differs from what we do.

[mok]

Thats all well and good, but doesn't explain why the Bejing Institute of Martial Arts has never heard of it. Is it really *that* underground?

Any chance you can press him for info? I'd love to know more about what is taught over there, lineage etc. and how it differs from what we do.

Who in the the BeiJing institute has never heard of it, and who asked?
IMO I personally wouldn't care what the Bei Jing institute has to say, considering everyone in H.K and GuangDong has heard of it going back 100 yrs or so. Also, keep in mind, there might have been a political agenda here or an some loss of traceable info from the cutltural upheavals of the last century.

Another thing, did whoever ask this question ask in english for "Lau Ga"? If that's the case you may want to ask in written form with the actual chinese character for the Lau surname and /or try with pinyin romanization - "Lau" is the cantonese pronounciation, the mandarin (i.e. Bei Jing equivalent) would probably be "Liu Jia Quan", and it's not certain some low-level bureaucrat who spent his life in Bei Jing would know that name in Cantonese.

[DaveTart]

Who in the the BeiJing institute has never heard of it, and who asked?
IMO I personally wouldn't care what the Bei Jing institute has to say, considering everyone in H.K and GuangDong has heard of it going back 100 yrs or so. Also, keep in mind, there might have been a political agenda here or an some loss of traceable info from the cutltural upheavals of the last century.

This is precisely my point, that none of the facts are backed up at all: So I'm seeing what else I can find.
Where are these people in HK saying it goes back 100years or so? As far as I can see, the only person making any such claim is Jeremy Yau.

"The British sites claim the system came from Guangxi (Kong Sai) province whereas the Chinese sources all maintain that the style is distinctly Guangdong. The British sites all list Flower Fist and Six Harmony Fist as part of their curriculum. It would be interesting to see how they are performed, as in China, both are Northern style names. "



Another thing, did whoever ask this question ask in english for "Lau Ga"? If that's the case you may want to ask in written form with the actual chinese character for the Lau surname and /or try with pinyin romanization - "Lau" is the cantonese pronounciation, the mandarin (i.e. Bei Jing equivalent) would probably be "Liu Jia Quan", and it's not certain some low-level bureaucrat who spent his life in Bei Jing would know that name in Cantonese.

Well LauGar should be in Hakka from what I've read, which muddies the waters even further. The only evidence I have about the BJ institute thing is on this forum: http://www.karatekorner.com/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=6&Topic=2295&srow=11&erow=20

"Well I've already been in touch with the Beijing University of MA, who found nothing, so don't bust a gut."

[Fung Ngan]

Lau (劉 Liu in pinyin) is a common Chinese family name, but the Lau Ga Kyun is indeed rare. And not much info is found. Like there are more then one Li Ga Kyuns is not impossible that there are more Lau Ga Kyuns. Sometimes it is called Guangdong Liu Jiaquan (廣東劉家拳). The history should be about 200 years old and as it prominent ancestors three are called:
1= 劉生 Lau Saang (Liu Sheng)
2= 劉一眼 Lau Jat Ngaan (Liu Yi Yan)
3= 劉青山 Lau Cing San (Liu Qing Shan)
Mostly Lau Yat Ngaan is mentioned as it founder and Lau Cing San as the creator of it’s present form.
Although often called "Guangdong Liu Jiaquan" is was in China up to the 1980’s "only" taught in Zhong Shan (中山).

Some Chinese site:
Zhong Shan Lau Ga Kyun
http://www.zsqk.gov.cn/color/c_show.asp?id=7
Lau Ga Master Xiao Yongding (肖永定)
http://www.nanfangdaily.com.cn/southnews/tszk/nfdsb/zszz/200411250987.asp

[The Great Sage of HU]

For the Lau Ga Kyun in Lam Cho lineage Hung Kuen see:
http://www.siulam.info/lauga.htm

and also see the Lau Ga theme in the forum linked from that website.




(sifu Michael Goodwin from San Francisco) who is pretty easy to find and is active on other forums elsewhere. IMO Sifu Goodwin is pretty knowledgeable and reliable source of info, as well as a direct student of Lam Jo.

You're incorrect here.
Although Michael has certainly learned (some) from grandmaster Lam Cho and Lam Cho sigung told him a lot about the history and theories in person, he's NOT Lam Cho's student. He's LAM CHUN SING's student.

[Wong Ying Home]

Dave.

Respectfully I think you will find it differs quite a lot from what is being taught in the UK.

Re history I will ask and see what info comes up, if any should my fieind wish to have the information public

[DaveTart]

Thanks for that. I would really like to know what the differences are though.

Is it even the same style? Or different styles with the same name?
Please let me know anything you can find out.

[mok]

For the Lau Ga Kyun in Lam Cho lineage You're incorrect here.
Although Michael has certainly learned (some) from grandmaster Lam Cho and Lam Cho sigung told him a lot about the history and theories in person, he's NOT Lam Cho's student. He's LAM CHUN SING's student.

I stand corrected. Give my best to sifu Goodwin, if you see him.

[taaigihk]

Although often called "Guangdong Liu Jiaquan" is was in China up to the 1980’s "only" taught in Zhong Shan (中山).

Some Chinese site:
Zhong Shan Lau Ga Kyun
http://www.zsqk.gov.cn/color/c_show.asp?id=7
Lau Ga Master Xiao Yongding (肖永定)
http://www.nanfangdaily.com.cn/southnews/tszk/nfdsb/zszz/200411250987.asp

In the second article they also say, that there's this version of Lau ga's histrory, that Lau ga taught in Zhongshan area is in fact Choy ga (Cai jia) as original Lau gar already died out. :)

[DaveTart]

Hmmmm. Looks like I'm going to have to learn to read chinese to make any sense of half this stuff. Wish I could get hold of Videos or something, just so I can compare.

I did read that one of our forms Lau Gar luk Hup Kuin (liu jia liu he quan) is the name of a form rumored to be created by General Yue Fei. It's included in several styles including Yue Jia.
Interesting.

[Paul T England]

The Lau Gar taught by Jeremy Yau in the UK is not the same as the lau gar taught in Hung Gar. The hung gar version is one of the five families. Mok, Fut, Choy Hung and Lau I believe. Southern Shaolin is not my style but I hope I have understood a little....

If you look at the Hung Gar lau gar forms you will see they are very different to J Yau's version. Some people will say he made it up but my take would be that it was a small family style and I would imagine the two chinese character for Lau might be different. If you look at the UK lau gar forms they do not look traditional. The first form is similar to wing chun but done in horse stance and another for called chap choy looks for like southern mantis/pak mei (sorry if you do one of these styles, don't mean to offend just trying to give people a reference.)

Mr Yau has included lots of forms and concepts from other styles such as Hung Gar tiger Crane and Sticky hands also.

I would say, if you enjoy your style then do it and believe the teachers. I am sure Mr Yau is good at what he does but its not the lau gar which hung gar practitioners would know.

Paul

[DaveTart]

The Lau Gar taught by Jeremy Yau in the UK is not the same as the lau gar taught in Hung Gar. The hung gar version is one of the five families. Mok, Fut, Choy Hung and Lau I believe. Southern Shaolin is not my style but I hope I have understood a little....

Er, we have already said that the "LauGar Kuen" in Hung Gar has nothing to do with the Lau Gar family style. See:

"Alhtought [sic] the names of the sets remind us of one of the famous “five family styles” of Gwongdung with the name Lau Ga, both sets have nothing to do with this style. The sets are named after another Lau family, which is a very common name in China.
The fist set Lau Ga Kyun originally comes from Mok Ga style. A student of Lam Saiwing, bearing the name Lau, had learned this style prior to joining Lam Saiwing’s school. Lam Jou being a young men was very interested in other styles too and learned the set from this person.
Lam Jou changed the crouching postures and narrow stances of the original Mok Ga style to typical stances of Hung family style and added it to his teaching curriculum.
Around the same time Lam Jou also picked up the rat-tail pole set from Chu Ga Tong Long style (praying mantis). This set came from a student of Lau Sui, after whom Lam Jou named the set.
As the sets bore the same name, later the beginning of the fist set was also added to the pole set, making them a matching couple."


If you look at the Hung Gar lau gar forms you will see they are very different to J Yau's version. Some people will say he made it up but my take would be that it was a small family style and I would imagine the two chinese character for Lau might be different.

As above, these will be different as they are completely different styles. I am trying to assertain if the mainland China form of LauGar (there seems to be good evidence it is still going) is the same/similar to the LauGar taught in the UK.


If you look at the UK lau gar forms they do not look traditional. The first form is similar to wing chun but done in horse stance and another for called chap choy looks for like southern mantis/pak mei (sorry if you do one of these styles, don't mean to offend just trying to give people a reference.)

Can I ask what you mean by "don't look traditional"? do you mean they don't look like the Wing Chun form, and Praying Mantis ones?

[mok]

Dave - as you very well know (please don't be cheeky) there is substantial controversy/questionning as to wether the UK Lau Ga is in fact based on any authentic lau ga kung fu style, or if it's alot more recent (like post 1960's).

That said, I have nothing to do with this dispute - we have more than enough lineage/sifu battles on our hands within Hung Kuen for me to worry about another art. But not ackowledging there is some controversy when we all know that you know is a bit disingenuous.

Peace,

mok

[DaveTart]

*shrug* I was hoping I could have an honest discussion about the origins of my style without getting caught up in a fight. I wasn't denying any such problems in the past. I thought I covered that with:

"And before I get jumped on by all the BKFA lot, I'm not trying to discredit Master Yau - I'm trying to find out about where the style comes from. Lineage of all the forms, and so on. "

[mok]

*shrug* I was hoping I could have an honest discussion about the origins of my style without getting caught up in a fight. I wasn't denying any such problems in the past. I thought I covered that with:

"And before I get jumped on by all the BKFA lot, I'm not trying to discredit Master Yau - I'm trying to find out about where the style comes from. Lineage of all the forms, and so on. "

...and I WAS happily obliging (believe me I'm a complete agnostic on the issue anyway) but by saying this up above you opened the door :)


: "Can I ask what you mean by "don't look traditional"? do you mean they don't look like the Wing Chun form, and Praying Mantis ones?

[DaveTart]

I think "agnostic" is a good way to describe my attitude. In a classic philosophical sense, "agnostisism" should be only believing in that which is proven. A sort of emperical positivism if you will.

All I know is that some of our forms are based on our forms (much like all styles are to a certain extent), our second form is based on/derived from/very similar to the first Wing Chun form. And apparently our third form is similar to a Southern Praying Mantis one. Since Wing Chun was widespread, and Southern Praying Mantis comes from the same region as LauGar (plus has links with Hakka styles) this is hardly suprising. I'm just interested in seeing the various versions to see what changes exist. It would be great to know when them came into our style too, but I understand getting sources for that is very difficult.

I'll try and clarify:
"Can I ask what you mean by "don't look traditional"? Do you mean they don't look like the respective Wing Chun and Praying Mantis ones?* Or do you mean they don't look like traditional LauGar forms?

*which I'm guessing they wouldn't if they were brought into the style hundreds of years ago.

[Wong Ying Home]

Traditional chinese kung fu style be they southern, northern or internal conform to a number of specified precepts with regard to body movement/mechanics shape etc.

If you look at southern styles, most common, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Chow Gar they all have very clear and defineable body movement, shape and characteristics.

If a style thats says it is traditional and for eg one of the above and does not conform to the style specific precepts then it cannot be considered traditaional in the sense of that style.

Dave I think Mok was actually being very helpfull and open with you and trying to assist in his answers.

Wing Chun done with Northern stance work ...would not be defined as a traditional wing chun be it Hong Kong or mainland version

[stainlesschi]

the bkfa,s lau gar does have alot of wing chu ni nthe first two forms but the fighting concepts differ.it seems to borrow wing chun moves for its own...

[DaveTart]

Er. I don't think the first LauGar form (Kay Bon So Far) is wingchun based - I've never heard it reffered to as such. And it looks nothing like the three WingChun open hand forms.

The second LauGar one (Jorn Sau) almost certainly is. The start is very similar to Siu Nim Tau, footwork included.

[stainlesschi]

i said THE FIRST TWO LAU GAR FORMS HAVE WING CHUN MOVES IN THEM...not that they look like each other,,,and the footwork aint the same apart from the basic stance which aint footwork ,just a stance...

[laugarkuen]

Mr Yau has included lots of forms and concepts from other styles such as Hung Gar tiger Crane and Sticky hands also.

Paul

Yep we do do Tiger Crane but it is not a part of the written syllabus and there are a few other forms like this. Sticky hands at the moment is coming from Yang stile tai chi though there is starting to be a Chen influence.

On top of kay boon sau fa and charp choi. Fai Loong Gee (Finger movements of the dragon) is very like tai chi.

As to the history, your right, it is very obscure. Has any one thought to ask Master Yau. I probably won't see him again this year.

Michael

[Wong Ying Home]

Lau Gar Kune,

What if any two man forms are there ?

[DaveTart]

i said THE FIRST TWO LAU GAR FORMS HAVE WING CHUN MOVES IN THEM...not that they look like each other,,,and the footwork aint the same apart from the basic stance which aint footwork ,just a stance...

I was reffering to Paul T England's comments, and trying to clarify where wingchun crossover occurs; No need to "shout".
As for Kay Bon So Far having wingchun moves in it, I'm not convinced: Basic inner blocks, outer blocks and so on could come from any number of styles.
As for the stance/footwork thing: The first WingChun form doesn't have any in it, it is all in stance: Just like the start of Jorn Sau, as I said.

Their isn't any two man forms per se*, but we do two man work in punch blocks/kick blocks. And there is a very short staff defense senquence of about 10 moves.


*there seems to be a two-man staff form for 2nd degree blacksash grade, but that was never there when Kevin Brewerton (our chief instructor) was part of the BKFA as far as know.

[laugarkuen]

i said THE FIRST TWO LAU GAR FORMS HAVE WING CHUN MOVES IN THEM...not that they look like each other,,,and the footwork aint the same apart from the basic stance which aint footwork ,just a stance...

Whilst the stance in journ sau is very similar to wing chung and the way the form is performed I would say that is the only similarity in that I have seen the movements from the first two forms in many arts. Particularly southern ones.

Two man forms in lau gar are present though no empty hand ones that I have encountered or heard of yet. There is stick defence (Kwun Jorn) for brown sash, Dual stick form (Kwun Jorn Doi Chark) for 3rd degree and I guess you could include knife defence though it is alot less rigid than a set form. I know there are others later on but I haven't got to them yet.

[laugarkuen]

Sorry Dave, didn't realise you had posted basically the same thing.

[DaveTart]

Dual stick form (Kwun Jorn Doi Chark) for 3rd degree

Can I ask how long that has been in the BKFA syllabus? I've been training since the early 90's, and the only time I've seen that performed was when I went to University in about 2001.
AFAIK when our club split (along with alot of other clubs back in the 80's before the whole gaurdians thing was set up) the only weapons were: Broadsword, Butterfly Knives, Tiger Spear (trident), and the knife/stick defenses.

[laugarkuen]

You can ask but I haven't the foggyest :p . I will as my Sifu though. He is one of the Guardians so will hopefully know.

[Mano Mano]

Originally Posted by laugarkuen
Whilst the stance in journ sau is very similar to wing chung and the way the form is performed I would say that is the only similarity in that I have seen the movements from the first two forms in many arts. Particularly southern ones.

Which Particular Southern styles are you referring to.

[CFT]

I've also seen video of a BKFA Lau Gar chin na doi chaak. Two man drill with chin na and anti-chin na.

[DaveTart]

Which Particular Southern styles are you referring to.

I'm beginning to think uploading a video to YouTube so you can see might be the easiest way to explain all this, you could see all our forms and see for yourself.

The first two forms are very basic and therefore cover very basic moves (inner blocks, outerblocks, harvest hand, rolling punch, palm heel strikes, a knee stomp etc) as so they are similar to most styles - how many styles don't have outblocks in them!

I've done a bit of HungKuen (up in preston) and recognised several things, and from the few praying mantis videos I've watched there seems to be similarity there too.


I've also seen video of a BKFA Lau Gar chin na doi chaak. Two man drill with chin na and anti-chin na.

Again, I'd love to know when this came into the BKFA. It certainly wasn't there when we split, and I didn't see it even when I did train with the BKFA about 5years ago.

[laugarkuen]

Yeah I have seen it to though as far as I know it is not part of the official syllabus. We do a lot of things in Lau Gar that are not as I have mentioned before.

Master Yau and the guardians have a wealth of experience between them. Do any of you expect it to be solely Lau Gar and nothing else. Hell we even do lion dance but again its not on the syllabus.

Dave, if I remember correctly you do lau gar with a shaolin twist. (Now officially you should not be being taught the lau gar syllabus at all if you if you have split from the BKFA as it is copyrighted and the property of Master Yau. Not having a dig, just a comment.)

As the syllabus is Master Yaus and he is still alive, things get changed now and then and if you are not in the BKFA you will notice the difference. Even in the BKFA we notice a difference from instructor to instructor :rolleyes:

[DaveTart]

Yeah I have seen it to though as far as I know it is not part of the official syllabus. We do a lot of things in Lau Gar that are not as I have mentioned before.

Master Yau and the guardians have a wealth of experience between them. Do any of you expect it to be solely Lau Gar and nothing else.

Oh no, of course not. We do alot of JuJitsu bits and bobs (for self defense) as a few of our instructors are trained in that too.

I'm just trying to work out what the "core" syllabus is/was. hence being interested to see which bits seem additional to me.


Dave, if I remember correctly you do lau gar with a shaolin twist. (Now officially you should not be being taught the lau gar syllabus at all if you if you have split from the BKFA as it is copyrighted and the property of Master Yau. Not having a dig, just a comment.)

Our Syllabus is identical to the BKFA one as it was in the 1980's when we split, except: We've added a few knifeblocks (with the admission they are "additional") and 1 -4 punch/kick blocks start from stance and not u-bay.

(as for copyrighted, there is no copyright symbol on the syllabus or anywhere else I can see. He has tried to trademark the name "Lau Gar" though, which is a totally different thing)


As the syllabus is Master Yaus and he is still alive, things get changed now and then and if you are not in the BKFA you will notice the difference. Even in the BKFA we notice a difference from instructor to instructor :rolleyes:

Of course, you always get that! As one of our instructors says "it's the same, but different".

[Wong Ying Home]

I have seen the two man chin na form you mentioned, and it is an exact copy of a chin na two man 72 lock form currently available on dvd that is a northern form.

Which was not on sale for more than two or so years

you cant copyright a family name either...Lau..Gar meaning Lau family..how many Lau families are there

[DaveTart]

I have seen the two man chin na form you mentioned, and it is an exact copy of a chin na two man 72 lock form currently available on dvd that is a northern form.

Which style is it from?

And TBH, I don't really care about that - we already know that is a addition to the style. It's the core style I'm interested in.

[Mano Mano]

DaveTart
The reason I asked about which styles you were referring to was when you replied to because Paul T England you said
as for Kay Bon So Far having wingchun moves in it, I'm not convinced: Basic inner blocks, outer blocks and so on could come from any number of styles.Admittedly most Southern styles & a few Northern styles have these inner blocks, outer blocks and so on, however they very rarely follow or use the same hand movements.

[stainlesschi]

ive done the two man chin-na routine whilst i was in the bkfa as far the dual stick form it was there at least 3 years ago...

[DaveTart]

DaveTart
The reason I asked about which styles you were referring to was when you replied to because Paul T England you said Admittedly most Southern styles & a few Northern styles have these inner blocks, outer blocks and so on, however they very rarely follow or use the same hand movements.

TBH I don't know enough about other styles to comment. The moves are so basic they are pretty universal. I really should pull my finger out, and get a video up so you can see it and let me know what you all think.

[Mano Mano]

The wing chun moves Paul T England was referring to are not universal for some reason wing chun & Lau Gar.
That implies either one comes from the other or both from the same source

[Su Lin]

Hey there DaveTart, where abouts do you train?

Louise

[DaveTart]

Hey there DaveTart, where abouts do you train?

Louise

I started training in the early/mid 90's with the UMAI under Kevin Brewerton based in Farnham (Hampshire). Like lot's of people, Kevin split from the BKFA in the 80's.
During the wilderness years surrounding university I trained in all sorts of clubs/styles including two BKFA clubs, one in exeter and one in Cardiff. I'm now back in Farnham which is currently headed up by Damien McLoughlin now that Kevin is back in the states.

[laugarkuen]

I asked Steven (my sifu) about the two man stick form for 3rd degree. He says it has been there for as long as he can remember and he has been doing lau gar for 20 odd years.

On a different note I have had my first two students grade for white sash today and they both passed. :D

[DaveTart]

I asked Steven (my sifu) about the two man stick form for 3rd degree. He says it has been there for as long as he can remember and he has been doing lau gar for 20 odd years.

On a different note I have had my first two students grade for white sash today and they both passed. :D

20 years would take you back to '86 - Roughly the time Kevin Brewerton, Humprey Broome and alot of others split - So it could be possible it came in shortly after that? Especially as I'm guessing your sifu wouldn't have been a Black Sash by then, So might not have seen it until a few years after that? I'm going to one of Humphries Tournaments tomorrow and see if I can ask him.

And congratulations - Go you! :)

[DaveTart]

I asked Steven (my sifu) about the two man stick form for 3rd degree. He says it has been there for as long as he can remember and he has been doing lau gar for 20 odd years.

On a different note I have had my first two students grade for white sash today and they both passed. :D

20 years would take you back to '86... And I'm guessing your sifu wouldn't have been a Black Sash by then, So might not have seen it until a few years after that? Mid eighties was roughly the time Kevin Brewerton, Humprey Broome and alot of others split - So it could be possible it came in shortly after that?

I'm going to one of Humphries Tournaments tomorrow and see if I can ask him.

And congratulations - Go you! :)

[laugarkuen]

Sorry, I meant 20+ years but I'm not sure how many, I'll ask him.

[DaveTart]

Spoke to Humphrey, His club does do the dual-man stick form. He said he split from the BKFA in about 1990 and the form was "just coming in then".

I'm not 100% sure when Kevin Split, but his society UMAI (United martial arts International) was formed 1989 so I'm guessing it was just before that. Looks like it's entirely possible Jeremy Yau added that form around the time Kevin left, so we never learned it.
Heh ho.

Now all I need to do is work out what "Lau Gar throat locking stick" (on the syllabus for 3rd degree Black Sash as well) is, and I'm sorted. Humphrey says he's never heard of that one!

[Su Lin]

I started training in the early/mid 90's with the UMAI under Kevin Brewerton based in Farnham (Hampshire). Like lot's of people, Kevin split from the BKFA in the 80's.
During the wilderness years surrounding university I trained in all sorts of clubs/styles including two BKFA clubs, one in exeter and one in Cardiff. I'm now back in Farnham which is currently headed up by Damien McLoughlin now that Kevin is back in the states.

Ta Dave,I'm just interested as my club isn't a BFKA one either,so following the thread with interest!

Thanks
Louise

[DaveTart]

Fair enough. If you want to know more, just send me a private message. I think you are up north, preston? Is it the Ormskirk Club?

Love to know your syllabus etc.

[laugarkuen]

Now all I need to do is work out what "Lau Gar throat locking stick" (on the syllabus for 3rd degree Black Sash as well) is, and I'm sorted. Humphrey says he's never heard of that one!

I'm second degree now so only just learning throat locking stick. Its basically a staff form with a rat tail pole, which is a tapering 7 foot staff.

Post more later.

[laugarkuen]

Actually it is no surprise that there are more stick forms later on. Go on just about any lau gar website and there will be a bit somewhere stating that lau gar excels in stick work. It always made me kinda think, where???

[DaveTart]

Actually it is no surprise that there are more stick forms later on. Go on just about any lau gar website and there will be a bit somewhere stating that lau gar excels in stick work. It always made me kinda think, where???

Lol. This is indeed true. Though it seems (at least in the throat locking stick case) that these only came in after 1990 - so where on earth did they come from?

[laugarkuen]

I was talking to Steven about this on Saturday and I think he said that there used to only be about 3 degree grades then it was reorganised to the current 6 so I am theorising that maybe some of the stick forms etc were still in the syllabus but in the then 2nd or 3rd degree. It also depends on how far your sifus got and how open master Yau was about what the higher grades entail. Maybe i was quite closed door.

Or maybe he knew them as part of Lau Gar but it wasn't then part of the syllabus.

[DaveTart]

That backs up what I know (3rd Degree BlackSash was the highest grade back in the day) and AFAIK Kevin was a 3rd Degree when he left. So it seems odd that he could get to that level without knowing the full syllabus. Which again makes me think these things were additional to the core syllabus but have now been integrated, especially as we do all the other weapon forms, seems odd to miss those out.

I think it boils down to the what is LauGar, and what is the BKFA syllabus. I know (based on the Martial Arts planet forum discussion) that Yau added bits onto Kay Bon So Far, and changed bits about here and there so it might be that these stick forms have become part of the BKFA syllabus, while not being "true" LauGar. Bit like the Chin Na form that they do, but isn't (yet) part of the syllabus.
(though of course, according to him, everything he does is "LauGar" so it all gets a bit semantic at this point!)

I'm still waiting on a guy in the states who studied the Mainland Chinese version of LauGar to let me know what their syllabus is like, be really interesting to see how it compares.

[Kaylun]

[QUOTE=DaveTart;719886]That backs up what I know (3rd Degree BlackSash was the highest grade back in the day) and AFAIK Kevin was a 3rd Degree when he left. So it seems odd that he could get to that level without knowing the full syllabus. Which again makes me think these things were additional to the core syllabus but have now been integrated, especially as we do all the other weapon forms, seems odd to miss those out.


The syllabus changed in 1984 (just before I took my 1st black sash) Brewerton Wasnt 3rd then,

Lau Gar Soar Hou kwun is in my old syllabus book circa1978

You keep saying about Brewerton leaving Lau Gar did he jump or was he pushed?

And i Know the answer!

[laustick]

29 years ago the syllabus listed for 3rd black soar hou kwun and the dual
stick form.
Also there was an article in fighters magazine which was well over 30 years
ago which listed the weapons of lau gar which included the eyebrow hight
staff, and the 7 and half foot staff, kwan do, spear, butterfly knives, board
sword, ratten shield, tiger fork being the main weapon of the style,
but also saying the style is from the five families which i don't know.
but in all the history they claim linage to three eyed lau who if i'am
right is said to be the founder of the lau gar five families

[DaveTart]

The syllabus changed in 1984 (just before I took my 1st black sash) Brewerton Wasnt 3rd then,

Lau Gar Soar Hou kwun is in my old syllabus book circa1978

You keep saying about Brewerton leaving Lau Gar did he jump or was he pushed?

And i Know the answer!

Care to share the answer with us? Might help get to the bottom of things...

[DaveTart]

29 years ago the syllabus listed for 3rd black soar hou kwun and the dual
stick form.
Also there was an article in fighters magazine which was well over 30 years
ago which listed the weapons of lau gar which included the eyebrow hight
staff, and the 7 and half foot staff, kwan do, spear, butterfly knives, board
sword, ratten shield, tiger fork being the main weapon of the style,
but also saying the style is from the five families which i don't know.
but in all the history they claim linage to three eyed lau who if i'am
right is said to be the founder of the lau gar five families

So if all the stick work was for 3rd degree, and the sword form was for 2nd (assuming it's the same) where does the Butterfly knives form fit in. we do that.

Was that article about the mainland chinese style, or the style we do over here? Don't suppose you still have the article do you?

[CFT]

I don't practice Lau Gar but was looking into practicing it recently with a non-BKFA club so I did some online research.

The only online stuff relating to mainland China Lau Gar Kuen (Liujiaquan) was a Xiao Yong Ding of Zongshan, Guangdong province. This was an online version of a newspaper report.

There are also some English translation webpages which are excerpts of this article.

[Kaylun]

4th Butterfly knives+another sword
5th Tiger fork+ bat ging gung
6th Spear+ kwan dov shield and 1 butterfly knife+ other stuff
7th

[DaveTart]

4th Butterfly knives+another sword
5th Tiger fork+ bat ging gung
6th Spear+ kwan dov shield and 1 butterfly knife+ other stuff
7th


Cheers for that. Seems odd our club does the butterfly knives form but not the staff stuff if the buttefly knives are supposed to be for a higher grade...

can I ask what on earth "bat ging gung" is??!

[Kaylun]

Bat ging gung is our internal form bat =8 ging=power(s) gung=work

[DaveTart]

Cheers for all that.

So I'm guessing that is all from the the 1984 revision of the syllabus (since it is split into 6 degrees)? Any idea if it was all in the original syllabus at all? Someone mentioned they had a 1978 one...

Can I ask where you train BTW?

[Kaylun]

only the second sword and duel stick were added as far as i know

there are other sets that arnt in the syllabus but have been there all the time such as "5 animals" "kwan dao" and empty handvbutterfly knives.

other sets which arnt in the syllabus or the style but they are good to study and learn such as the "tiger and crane" from the Hung family style

[DaveTart]

So does anyone know how it was all arranged in the pre-1984 syllabus at all? (in fact, can anyone back up that date of 1984 as the "reform date")

And I've seen the "5 animals" form down in the BKFA club in exeter, all very cool.

[DaveTart]

I've managed to get in contact with an American Guy who practises a Mainland style of LauGar. Be interesting to see what differences and similarities there are...

[DaveTart]

Had a reply from that guy, seems he does "Tao Shen Fon" LauGar or "Way of the Eternal Phoenix". Apparently it's rare even in mainland china. I've asked a few questions, but no reply so far...

BTW has anyone heard of Vincent Lewis? Apparently he teaches up in birmingham and does yet another version of the Lau Gar syllabus (the punch blocks are slightly different, and some of the forms are in a different order). I've tried googling but can't find anything...

[The Great Sage of HU]

Some links to Lau Ga of mainland China:

http://www.nanfangdaily.com.cn/southnews/tszk/nfdsb/zszz/200411250987.asp

http://www.zsqk.gov.cn/color/c_show.asp?id=7

http://203.80.94.19/~kwchanc/waiwai/kungfu3.htm#2

Enjoy!

[DaveTart]

Now all I need is a translation, and we are sorted!

I tried sticking it through "BabelFish" for a laugh, and got the following:

"South the fist is high important person Cai nine □□, □however many kinds of are many □, but it □basic request is common. In the technique, the upper limb □does □many, □the strength is prominent; In the body law, deals with the turnover, depends on the awning □□; In the step, four is even eight, Bryophyllum Pinnatum."

All makes sense now. ;)

[laugarkuen]

Did someone ask for pics of this? I can't be bothered reading through all the posts to find this out. If so I have found some scetches I did a few years ago which although not perfect give you an idea of the form.

[mark_standen]

Hey,

I learn under Vince Lewis in Birmingham. He teaches Lau Gar, but the syllabus is slightly different to that of the BKFA's.

The class in at Newtown Communiy Centre. If you are interested in finding out more let me know.

[DaveTart]

Oh yes, there are all sorts of things I'd like to know. Cheers for speaking up!

I'd be really interested to know what differences exist in his syllabus compared to the BKFA, and why they are there...

[DaveTart]

Oh for ****s' sake. it doesn't get any easier:

This place teaches "LauGar" apparently:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar1.html

now, I would assume (since it seems to be for the most part a HungGar school) that their Lau Gar is the stuff that turns up in Hung Gar, as already mentioned. However, they say it contains 2 hand forms, and one staff form - whereas all the other Hung Gar sites state that the "Lau Gar" they do is one hand form, one staff form. also this:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar2.html seems suspiciously like Bac Pye Jurn.

Wonder what on earth they are teaching??!

[laugarkuen]

I posted the invite in the main bit but for those who missed it....

On the 22nd of Jan at the Sugden Centre in Manchester (UK) we are doing a free Lau Gar seminar. It will be from 6pm till 8pm and I'm not sure what we are covering yet :o .

There will be two Guardians (Steven Burton and David Eccles) and myself teaching. If you are in or near Manchester and want to come along then phone me on 07984 423857 or email me at: michael@manchesterdragons.co.uk .

I'm limiting the places to 30 so you must pre-book.

Thanks,

Michael

[mok]

Oh for ****s' sake. it doesn't get any easier:

This place teaches "LauGar" apparently:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar1.html

now, I would assume (since it seems to be for the most part a HungGar school) that their Lau Gar is the stuff that turns up in Hung Gar, as already mentioned. However, they say it contains 2 hand forms, and one staff form - whereas all the other Hung Gar sites state that the "Lau Gar" they do is one hand form, one staff form. also this:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar2.html seems suspiciously like Bac Pye Jurn.

Wonder what on earth they are teaching??!

Yup - If you go back to their root site (http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/theart.html) it says Hung Gar all over it.

Also, the guy on the picture from the page you posted is wearing a t-shirt with big red characters saying "Hung Kuen" on it :D

[DaveTart]

Yes... but...
They also teach:
Shaolin Wing Chun
Tiger Boxing
Plum Blossom Boxing
Tibetan Praying Mantis
Shaolin Flower Boxing
Dragon Boxing
Golden Eagle
Monkey Boxing
Eight Drunken Immortals
Sap Fu Chaw
Shaolin Five Animals
Shaolin Ten Animals

Which I'm pretty sure aren't all part of the Hung Kuen syllabus! So it might be they teach a bit of our Lau Gar as well...

[CFT]

I've never heard of Tibetan Praying Mantis before.
Tibetan Lama and Tibetan White Crane mainly.

[Kaylun]

Oh for ****s' sake. it doesn't get any easier:

This place teaches "LauGar" apparently:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar1.html

now, I would assume (since it seems to be for the most part a HungGar school) that their Lau Gar is the stuff that turns up in Hung Gar, as already mentioned. However, they say it contains 2 hand forms, and one staff form - whereas all the other Hung Gar sites state that the "Lau Gar" they do is one hand form, one staff form. also this:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar2.html seems suspiciously like Bac Pye Jurn.

Wonder what on earth they are teaching??!

Hung Gar has two empty hand forms with the name Lau in their syllabus Lau Gar fist is the one that is is in most schools do and Lau Gar Palm is the other

[Ben Gash]

I know both forms and they're Hung, the frst one is the standard Lam Sai Wing line form, and the second one is like a more dynamic condensed version (kinda like in Songshan Shaolin where the Xiao form is often the harder one).
The Tibetian mantis form is the fairly typical 7 star Bung Bo form, the rest of it is a collection of genreal Sil Lum forms that Lai Ng Sam learned somewhere.

[Ben Gash]

Oh for ****s' sake. it doesn't get any easier:

This place teaches "LauGar" apparently:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar1.html

now, I would assume (since it seems to be for the most part a HungGar school) that their Lau Gar is the stuff that turns up in Hung Gar, as already mentioned. However, they say it contains 2 hand forms, and one staff form - whereas all the other Hung Gar sites state that the "Lau Gar" they do is one hand form, one staff form. also this:
http://www.mousavikungfu.co.uk/laugar2.html seems suspiciously like Bac Pye Jurn.

Wonder what on earth they are teaching??!

How can a very common southern style hand technique and some really pretty generic Nan Sil Lum principles seem suspiciously like Bac Pye Jurn????

[Cobalt60]

Hi there fellow Cma/Mma/Ma practitioners

This is in fact my maiden post so I hope I do this right.

I have been avidly following this thread and would just like to say im so glad that so many knowledgable people are on the this thread.

I have been practicing Lau Gar for almost three years now (year off due to broken elbow!) I am currently practing in bournemouth and it is a non bkfa club, 'IMAO' Independant Martial Arts Organisation. Has anyone heard of it? Apparently Humphrie Broome is the founder of it?

My previous Sifu was Andy Lee who used to teach in poole and christchurch, I went away for a year and then came back to find this IMAO organisation had come along and taken everything over. I have been to the website www.imao.org and its a few pages scanned into the computer by the looks of things.

I now train under a guy called barry (cant remember surname only been back a few weeks) Does anyone know of what happened about a year back, was there another re-shuffle?

I have been reading a VERY similar thread on martialartsplanet.com (which seems to longer exist as of today, webpage will not load at all!) so have found this thread which seems to have much more info on it. (any questions about the martialartsplanet thread just ask.)

The new sifu has been teaching us sern ping choi but has said that instead of blocking across the body, its best to block diagonally down across the body, do non bkfa clubs often teach variations? As this would mean that it could become even more difficult to trace the lineage of Lau Gar if the techniques have been dilouted?

Apologies for the long post. Hope I havent caused or re-hashed any old things.

Thanks

[Su Lin]

Hey there!
The thread on map is the same as on here,but there are also a few others on Lau there. I think it is having technical issues today.

I also go to a non BKFA club and that's an interesting idea about sern ping choi. Our club has some variations too.


Happy posting:)

[Cobalt60]

Thanks for the warm welcome....

Do you guys do many other variations? And what non-bkfa club do you belong to? This is what I meant when I said this could mean to further difficulty tracing the lineage of the style.

Another Variation we do is in Jorn Sau where when you block across the body (after the turn to the left) our sifu says you can elbow strike and block other than just block....

It all very confusing, ha ha ha.

Has anyone actually got the original syllubus who still practices and knows the variations? Or has anyone published them on a media streaming site so that people can compare their own styles?

Thanks

[Su Lin]

I know quite a lot of our stuff differs,even if just slightly. I know our jorn sau differs,from watching the ex BKFA guy who trains with us
My club is www.shaolinlaugarkungfu.co.uk . My sifu had Shaolin training too,so we have a combination really and we tend to go deeper and lower in stances than BKFA lau people.
There are a few forms done by BKFA people on the map threads, which I can show you when the site is back up again.
There arent many Lau Gar vids online,but I know you can buy syllabus dvds from the BKFA.



I may get round to doing a vid of it at some point.:o

[DaveTart]

Hey Cobalt...
Humphrey is a very good teacher. He trained directly under master yau I believe. The IMAO is a good club to be in. I regularly show up at their tournaments and the level of ability is normally very good.
I train in Farnham at a UMAI (united martial arts international) club, started by Kevin "the Jedi" Brewerton.

As for variations, I have trained at several lau gar clubs (both BKFA and others, and not seen that variation of sern ping choi. Surely the point is to keep up right and cover the whoel body, hence a horizontal block.
I would check with Humphrey if I were you as it might be possible that it's just a mis-interpreting of the technique. (having said that, i'm not getting into a "what is RIGHT" argument).

As for jorn sau, that makes sense - you could easily interpret the blocks on that move as including an elbow strike... you wouldn't even have to change the move to show it. cool!

*****EDIT****
as Su Lin says, there are variations to be found everywhere "it's the same, but different" as one of our instructors says. However, that doesn't mean "Anything Goes!" as it would descend into nonsense. I guess what you need to ask yourself, is WHY things are different, where the differences come from, and most importantly - do they work?
Our club/instructors always accept small differences in forms etc, so long as the person can justify it. There is nothing worse than someone blindly doing something and having no idea why, or why it's different from someone elses way!
*************

as for the thread on MAP, i post there too. always good to get a wide audience.

[DaveTart]

speaking of the MAP thread - someone has just starting talking about senior walking techniques: The Shadow Walking Kicks.

Anyone know what he means? I've never heard of any walking technique refered to as that...

[AndyM]

Could everyone just be a little cautious in dealing out information to Davetart.

Dave.
If you can be more specific about where and who you train with, then I'll drop the suspicion, but seeing as my account here has been hacked, and you've somehow gotten my email address.....

Let's just say I'm watching you very carefully.

[DaveTart]

Andy, I've sent you another PM... Hope it'll clear things up.

I train at the Farnham Kungfu Club, in Farnham (surrey). It was set up by Kevin Brewerton, and is currently run by Damien McLoughlin.

Dave

[DaveTart]

Incidently, from a MAP thread:

A summary of the characteristics of Lau Gar from the article about mainland Lau Gar as practiced by Xiao Yongding:

Lau Gar is also known as "spider’s legs, prawn’s back", which refers to the fast bridge hands and the explosive power from the waist. Lau Gar Kuen places spirit first, short bridge, narrow horse stance, the kung fu is hard and crisp, lively and quick, steps in four directions and fists in 8 directions.
This follows the key style principles of: “Advance like a wind-chasing arrow, withdraw like a flash of thunder & lightning, steps must be nimble, hands move like smoke and cloud."