Chinese arts and Japanese arts

[Cincinnatus]

Hello, I'd like to get some of your opinions on a matter I've been thinking about. It seems that a good deal of Chinese systems are focused on developing "power" while those of the Japanese systems (not Okinawan-derived) focus on developing "aiki." By that I mean "power" = fajin or geng, the focusing of the chi to explode bodily energy at the right momentm and "aiki" = hramonizing, or blending with an attack to minimize strength or energy used to deal with that attack. Of course both types of systems will use power and harmonizing energies to some extent and both are needed for full mastery, but they seem to do it to different degrees. In particular, I am thinking of styles like Hsing-i for the Chinese systems and aikido for the Japanese systems. But even arts like Bagua and TaiChi seems to focus more on developing "power" than "aiki" where even sport arts like Judo that are from Japan focus more on the "aiki" aspect. OK, what do you guys think?

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[Repulsive Monkey]

its the other way around! It by no means exclusive to, but it just seems that more of the Chinese arts are internal and express Fajin and in fact less of the Japanese arts expose this facet. The majority of Japanese arts are very external. If at all I would say that Aikido (and more so KI-Aikido) are the internal arts of Japan, and by certain texts it is claimed that even there the internal principles were garnered from the Chinese. One idea is that Morihei Ueshiba actually studied Ba Gua in China before he went back to Japan and formularized Aikido to the Japanese. Still by what you are saying I would vehemently have to its the other way around.

[Cincinnatus]

Thanks for you reply. I hope i didn't come off as saying that most Chinese arts are external. Far from that. I guess what I am alluding to is that the development of internal energy and internal training in Chinese arts seem to place a lot of emphasis on being able to develop fajing. Of course it also develops the ability to sense, lead, and borrow the opponent's energy and such, but there is a lot of focus on being able to generate this explosive power. On the other hand, Japanese arts like aikido and aiki-jujutsu place a great deal of emphasis on developing this concept of aiki - that of expert timing and blending, but not so much on what the Chinese call fajing. You're right in that much of it seems to be external - especially when it comes to karate - but that's an Okinawan import. I'm referrring to the home island arts in particular. I hope I haven't just repeated myself - makes so much sense when I was talking to myself about it in my head ;) .

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[unclaimed effort]

I agree that there was definitely a chinese influence on the Japanese arts.

Although about the bagua thing, I think there is more than that.

My master knows Aikido and Tai Chi, and points out when teaching Aikido the many moves that are applications in Tai Chi.

Let's take, for example, needle at the bottom of the sea of Yang style, it's the exact same move as Aikido's method of getting out of a cross hand grab.

Although, I can still see the Bagua influence, if what you say is true.

[unclaimed effort]

You are right, Cincinnatus.

Although, I hope you understand that all the chi in the world is nothing to the martial arts without being able to apply it.

Even with a little amount of Chi developed if you know how to apply it, at least you won't get smashed in a fight.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Waysun Liao, wote a book "translated the tai chi classics". He mentioned 34 different types of jings that can be developed.
Most people here on this forum seem only to be concerned about the fa-jing. Maybe its effects are easier to understand and use then the other types I don’t know.

From reading the many post on it, the way people write about it also seems much different then what I have experienced. Namely the use of the YI or mind seems to be missing from all the post that I’ve read so far. Jing or ging has also been called refined power; IMHO it deals directly with the opponents energy and not so much direct manipulation of the opponent on a physical level. Things like cutting the root using mind intent, causing the others energy to float seem to be lacking in the postings. Every body is doing the fa-jing or putting fa-jing in their movements. Makes me wonder what they really mean.

I believe this is also why so many are skeptical of true internal power simple that they have not really experienced the use of it. When i lived in Hawaii I had the chance to train and work out with a friend who was teaching Aki Aikido, and also touch and train with some of the Aikido people there. I found many of the concepts and ideas to be the same as TC.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Nexus]

This is mostly due to the fact that fa-jing is the most commonly described jing and some would say it is the most easily explained. It is visible when it takes place and can be considered obvious at that when someone has it.

The issue is taijiquan is a combination of mind & body, and it could even be said that it is a 50/50 combination of the two. A forum only gives you the aspect of the mind, the thought, the theory etc. That is why people rarely mention the important body aspects, as a teacher might (show) you if you were in the same room as them.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Braden]

The Yoshinkan Aikido training manual clearly discusses fajing. Whether or not anyone in aikido can do it anymore is another question. I've yet to find a single aikidoka that even has the slightest concept of what ki is (either that, or ki and chi are completely unrelated), and I have looked extensively.

As for aiki, I hear it constantly discussed by japanese practitioners, but I've yet to see it actually practiced outside of aikido - and even then, only at high level. I can't believe you would claim sport judo has a strong foundation in aiki. Even olympic level matches are minute long matches where each combatant wrestles for control. Aiki allows you to achieve dominance immediately by accepting/borrowing/yielding/leading/neutralizing and otherwise harmonizing with your opponent's energy. If practitioners have good aiki, the fight should be extremely short, and devoid of the forceful wrestling you see in judo. Even in aikido, several turns of tenkan are typically required before the practitioner has proper "harmonizing control" over his assailant. I understand that this is a training method to help students facilitate the idea of aiki, but it's become so pervasive that even most high level aikidoka continue to demonstrate their techniques requiring 4-6 tenkans to achieve aiki. The idea that this is a training tool which should be dropped with proficiency - so that aiki manifests immediately - is rapidly becoming lost. If you look at films of O'Sensei, you can clearly see that he doesn't do this - it's just BANG. Instant technique. THAT is aiki.

Conversely, the basic skill in the chinese internal arts is the use of body structure and subtle movement to achieve aiki. I've been studying bagua for a year. I cannot use fajing in self-defense. But I can make someone who tries to shove me fall on their own accord through aiki. Although it's talked about alot more on the net, fajing usually comes AFTER the aiki stuff in the internal arts.

[Cincinnatus]

Braden, I think that you have just coherently described what's been bouncing around in my head. Thanks. So yes, I agree with what you said - my teacher has always said that a real fight is over shortly, and any "technique" you do should take charge, or seize the conflict from your opponent on the first instant. This is kinda like what's usually described as being "aiki" in the old Koryu arts and what my teacher says should be the result of the mind leading the chi - none of the tit-for-tat fighting you see nowadays on screen or in toruneys. And I included Judo becasue IN THEORY a Judoka is supposed to take the other guy's balance and introduce him to the floor hard, thus ending the fight. But the continual sportification of Judo has made it into a spectator sport - so the longer the match the more fun it is for the spectators. I'm not sure Kano envisioned it that way. Anyway, I asked the original question becasue I know the CMA has exercises and drills that are designed to increase your sensitivity (ie. chi sao, push hands, etc) and specific exercises to develop your jings, but I don't know of any equivalent in JMA for jings although I have seen their aiki drills. Any thoughts?

What we do in life, echoes in eternity
--Maximus Decimus Meridius, General of the Army of the North, Commander of the Felix Legions

[unclaimed effort]

You have a good point. Although, it's obvious that that is true because if you can actually describe everything on words, there would be books teaching every single one of us martial arts.

[Nexus]

Here is something that might get you thinking:
#1.
"There are three kinds of teachers in the world:
Those who make things happen,
Those who watch things happen,
Those who wonder what happened.
Which do you want to be?"

#2.
"A teacher who is attempting to teach, without inspiring the pupil with a desire to learn, Is hammering on a cold iron."

#3.
"The teacher who is indeed wise does not bid you to enter the house of his/her wisdom but rather leads you to the threshold of your own."

#4.
This one in my opinion applies directly to the study of the internal martial arts

"Through enthusiasm, attitudes and ideas, or lack of these attributes, a teacher communicates messages that are sometimes more important than the subject matter itself."

#5.
"The aim of education is the knowledge, not of facts, but of values."

#6.
"One of the beauties of teaching is that there is no limit to one's growth as a teacher,
Just as there is no knowing beforehand how much your students can learn."

#7.
"The whole art of teaching is only the art of awakening the natural curiosity of young minds for the purpose of satisfying it afterwards."

Hope that makes this topic more interesting.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Scott R. Brown]

“Aiki” literally means, “harmonizing of ki”. Since “ki” and “qi” are energy, the energy harmonized can be physical energy or internal energy. In self-defense, the physical energy is the actual body movements; the internal energy is the mental intent of the aggressor. To harmonize with the physical energy one accepts the momentum of the aggressor, moves with it, and redirects it towards a determined point. To harmonize with the mental energy requires a little more experience, maturity and perceptive ability. The individual must have the ability and maturity to perceive the psychological state of the aggressor, interpret its meaning, then devise a means for redirecting the energy or intent of the aggressor. In harmonizing physically, one first receives visual cues and responds to that information. Once physical contact is made one must remain receptive to the subtle changes in the opponent’s momentum and balance and respond to these changes while maintaining one’s own physical and emotional balance. This is the proper use of “ki” in Aikido. It is fair to say that these skills are rare to find in Aikido these days, however, there are still a good number of high-ranking Aikidoka that possess these skills.

Braden,

The reason that Aikidoka perform so many tenkans during demonstrations is because of the “WOW” factor. It simply looks beautiful and impressive to those who are not interested in Aikido for its strict martial aspects. One of the purposes of demonstrations is to impress the audience in order to pique an interest in the art. Exaggerated movements in Aikido add to the beauty, the artfulness, but detract from its strict martial basis.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Braden]

Scott - thanks for your comments.

It seems we agree though, as the definition of 'ki' you supplied is NOT the definition of 'chi' from the internal styles. Also, concerning tenkans, we agree that it detracts from the martial value. I personally do not find it beautiful, but rather repulsive, however there's not much point arguing aesthetics! My main concern is that, when such behaviour becomes so pervasive, it is common for practitioners in general to lose sight of the original goal. We see this alot when people confuse training tools for fighting tools, and it is just as dangerous in this case. It is particularly bad in martial arts (which unfortunately lend themselves an air of mysticism), and when the tradition is crossing a language/cultural barrier which just increases the chance of original intentions being lost. When NO aikidoka practice the way O'Sensei did, I begin to wonder. Of course, I don't mean to aikido-bash here. If you read between the lines, you can tell I think the foundation of aikido is very high level. It would be surprising if there WEREN'T isolated practitioners that still aspire to this level.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Waysun Liao, wote a book "translated the tai chi classics". He mentioned 34 different types of jings that can be developed.
[/quote]

Do all these jings come from or manifest from the same place ie the dan tien? For example, CLF uses a whipping jing but does the power from this whipping jing generate in the same way that a Taiji whipping jing would? Just curious.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Scott R. Brown]

Braden,

I agree with much of your perspective as well. Not all internal arts limit themselves to the definition of qi that I think you are referring too. My primary source for information on qi is Dr. Yang’s, “The Root of Chinese Chi Kung”. In this book, he defines qi in depth. His definition comes from Chinese texts and includes just about any type of energy one could imagine. There is more than Heaven qi, Earth qi, P

[Scott R. Brown]

Braden,

I agree with much of your perspective as well. Not all internal arts limit themselves to the definition of qi that I think you are referring too. My primary source for information on qi is Dr. Yang’s, “The Root of Chinese Chi Kung”. In this book, he defines qi in depth. His definition comes from Chinese texts and includes just about any type of energy one could imagine. There is more than Heaven qi, Earth qi, Pre-Birth qi, Post-Birth qi etc. All types of energy are qi according to Dr. Yang’s research of the pertinent Chinese treatises.

The manner of harmonizing qi, in Aikido at any rate, is not some mystical ability. It is a skill developed through diligent practice and the development of physical sensitivity to the changing momentum of the opponent.

I have studied Aikido for years (almost 10 yrs.), I have found that most of the abilities that are attributed to qi are merely advanced biomechanics coupled with experience, and a sensitivity similar to what sticky hands develops.

The development of Aikido amongst Aikidoka is generally divided into Pre-WWII and Post-WWII. Pre-war Aikido is more self-defense practical. The Yoshinkan branch of Aikido developed by Gozo Shioda is the m

[Scott R. Brown]

Braden,

I agree with much of your perspective as well. Not all internal arts limit themselves to the definition of qi that I think you are referring too. My primary source for information on qi is Dr. Yang’s, “The Root of Chinese Chi Kung”. In this book, he defines qi in depth. His definition comes from Chinese texts and includes just about any type of energy one could imagine. There is more than Heaven qi, Earth q

[Scott R. Brown]

Braden,

I agree with much of your perspective as well. Not all internal arts limit themselves to the definition of qi that I think you are referring too. My primary source for information on qi is Dr. Yang’s, “The Root of Chinese Chi Kung”. In this book, he defines qi in depth. His definition comes from Chinese texts and includes just about any type of energy one could imagine. There is more than Heaven qi, Earth qi, Pre-Birth qi, Post-Birth qi etc. All types of energy are qi according to Dr. Yang’s research of the pertinent Chinese treatises.

The manner of harmonizing qi, in Aikido at any rate, is not some mystical ability. It is a skill developed through diligent practice and the development of physical sensitivity to the changing momentum of the opponent.

Scott

[Scott R. Brown]

I have studied Aikido for years (almost 10 yrs.), I have found that most of the abilities that are attributed to qi are merely advanced biomechanics coupled with experience, and a sensitivity similar to what sticky hands develops.

The development of Aikido amongst Aikidoka is generally divided into Pre-WWII and Post-WWII. Pre-war Aikido is more self-defense practical. The Yoshinkan branch of Aikido developed by Gozo Shioda is the most popular and well-known pre-war style. Some consider it hard Aikido although it is not as hard as Aiki-jujutsu. The post-war styles tend towards more new agey type philosophies as in the Ki Society of Koichi Tohei. O Sensei became more internal in his aging years and was a member of what would have been a new age cult had it been founded in the 60’s and this influenced his development of Aikido. A number of his pre-war students did not agree with the changes he had introduced following WWII. Yoshinkan Aikido is very popular in Japan amongst law enforcement.

Scott

[Scott R. Brown]

If you have found that stylistic Aikido is not beautiful, you may not have observed it performed by an advanced enough practitioner or perhaps it is too difficult for you to break out of the strict self-defense mode of thinking. I felt that way about Aikido before I began training in it. I trained in the MA for almost 20 years before my investigations into Aikido. I have had to adapt many of the movements to practical means, but I still enjoy the artsy movements. They do assist in learning to exercise effortless flowing accommodation on an opponent as well as how to lead an opponent. When a technique is performed properly, whether you are performing it or it is performed on you, the effortlessness of the performance is an astounding experience. The technique happens of itself, an excellent example of “not-efforting”.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Scott R. Brown]

I have just discovered that my cable connection will only post short messages.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Braden]

Hi Scott, don't worry about it! Thanks again for your insights. What is going wrong with your connection? Your first attempts mostly worked, but it looks like they got cut off. Maybe we can figure out what's going on?

For the aesthetics discussion, it doesn't matter, since we all have different ideas as to what is visually pleasing! I understand why someone would find it attractive, it's just that I personally don't. I find economy of motion and sound martial value to be visibly appealing - it catches my eye and creates a sense of enjoyment. Whereas "performance martial arts" such as modern wushu and aikido done in performance as you've described I find visually repulsive because they lack these qualities. I can't explain this, as it's simply a matter of opinion. Maybe it's similar to a mathematician calling a certain formula 'elegant'?

As for the chi thing, in the internal arts we don't see it as a metaphor for something that happens with good body mechanics. Rather, it's quite a real thing unto itself. That doesn't make it mystical though! And that doesn't detract from the value of 'ki' in aikido; it only suggests that the two are different.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Fow Pow,

“CLF uses a whipping jing but does the power from this whipping jing generate in the same way that a Taiji whipping jing “.

I really don’t know how to answer the question, as I’ve never heard of a Tajji whipping jing.

Your use of the word whipping to seems to a very physical description of something that is supposed to happen using the mind and chi. So I don’t know if we are talking about the same thing.

Even the post on Aikido, seem to attribute it to body mechanics or something. The people that I worked out with in HI probably would say something very different. But then I know very little about the art other then the people I met in HI.

I don’t presume to talk for Mr. Waysun Liao,
I mentioned his book as I understand and agree with his findings and explanations of chi, and the different jings.

I found this though touching hands with others and to a limited degree in my own practice. One thing that I have found missing in most of the post on jing.

Is the relationship between the mind and chi. It’s very hard to talk on this because if you have no idea or experience of chi then it is impossible to talk about using the jings. You really have to feel it used to really understand what is Li (strength) and jing is.

This is also why I’m skeptical of people who talk of Fa jing or adding fa jing to their movements. What you see is a result of what’s happing inside not the other way around.

So I would advise reading his book, then seeing if it matches your understanding.
Good post and interesting topic.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Scott R. Brown]

Braden,

I understand about preferring the practical aspects of the MA.

I agree with you qi is a real thing. I have experienced it many times. I mean that it is a term attributed to more than "the force" aspect most people confine its meaning too.

I have no idea what is up with my cable connection. It was was working fine uploading 2 weeks ago and now I cannot even send e-mail.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Repulsive Monkey]

I take your point about Fa-jing this and Fa-jing that. Conclusively speaking you are very much correct in that grafting a single manifestation of Qi derived methods is in itself a bit debasing to a whole art. Yes, there are plenty of other Jings, and if we go by the classics though Peng Jing is the root of all Jings.So semantically speaking maybe we ought to re-focus are attentions on a Peng Jing thread, becasue if you can't get Peng JIng then theoretically you can't progress onto any other Jings like, Fa-jing, Zhe-De-jing or even (get ready for a re-vitalization of the Empty force thread) Lin Kon Jing.