Mook Jong Wood Type Importance

[Sho Nuff]

Greetings,

If using the Mook Jong to practice putting energy into tehniques, (and I'm not talking about banging on it but issuing power), is the wood type important? Can you jing a pvc body mook and get the feed back that you need? I've been searching past post and it seems that people are just using the hardest wood they can fine. Is that all that is important?

thank you

[John2004]

yes, save your money and get a good one made out of hardwood preferrably teakwood. the sound and feeling makes a big difference especially if you do the poi-pai jeung section.

the best are also the fixed frame ones or spring mounted to floor. don;t get the ones
that stand on three legs or the one that sit between the doorway, you are just going to get waste your money.

[Liddel]

Greetings,
If using the Mook Jong to practice putting energy into tehniques, (and I'm not talking about banging on it but issuing power), is the wood type important?

Yes it is, for a few reasons - Longevity of the dummy and increasing power in your tecniques. (but which type of power ?)



Can you jing a pvc body mook and get the feed back that you need? I've been searching past post and it seems that people are just using the hardest wood they can fine. Is that all that is important?
thank you


My POV is that a hard body is best - hard wood - but the specifics of the frame is important for your use. I agree that a fixed frame dummy is the way to go.

With this in mind the frame must have give, in terms of flexibility.
Also the (bodies) wood is not supposed to give in my opinion but the size and build of the dummy give it a spring like qualiity.

The arms must have gaps so that they travel when jing is issued.
The bodies support beams must have give so that when you apply force it moves but its not the body that moves/ warps etc.....

So the wood is second on my list of importance when it comes to the Mook Jong - the size of gaps in relation to the size of the arms and leg are more important IMO.
:D

[Sho Nuff]

Thank you for your replies.
What would be your top three choices for where to purchase a good Mook?

[Chief Fox]

It doesn't have to be teak. Taht is totally bogus. The reason that dummies were made out of hard wood is because hard wood can withstand the elements and pests if the dummy is outside. That's it. Not because cetain wood has a certain feel.

I've made 3 dummies. All of the bodies were made from pine and guess what, they work great. I made the arms from oak because I knew they would take most of the beating.

I've also read about plenty of successful dummies made out of PVC.

Here's how I made my own:
http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

[Sho Nuff]

Any opinion on these?

https://www.immortalusa.com/DisplayImage.asp?imageName=freestand%5Fred%2Ejpg

http://www.immortalusa.com/files/freestandingdummy1.wmv

[John2004]

check out the LeungTing company wooden dummy.
http://www.leungting.com/

these are good from experience. i played with many of these. I'm not
from Leungting lineage. the arms are larger but the angle is right.

also
Cranesproduction.com
has some a tweekwood dummy but smaller arms. good wider trunk.

you can get one made of pine, from woodendummy.net
but .it's softwood. the one from here don't have enough play in the arms
but not sure if they fixed the problem now. also, I guarantee you won't
get the same feel with one made from pine and will regret it after you play
on one made of tweak or equivalent, that's if you know how to play the dummy
well.

[Sho Nuff]

John2004,

Thanks for the Leung Ting tip. I like them. Could you tell me how the spring frame plays compared to the wall mount?

The spring frame takes up less room so if all things are equal I would prefer to get the spring frame.

[Mr Punch]

I'm going to go against the grain (groan) and say that PVC is fine for you to learn position, and even for a year or two of energy work. In fact, the short power you need to put into your strikes with simultaneous other arm movement will probably benefit at least at first from having a bit of spring coming back at you. Hardwood doesn't have this.

I think part of the obsession with hardwood is because they undeniably look cool, feel cool and fit with tradition, but PVC should do the job for a good while at least at a fraction of the price and if you have a bit of practical skill you can make a portable one.

BTW, I love wood, and I much prefer wooden dummies: I just don't think they're 100% necessary in your case.

Also, as Liddel said, it depends on what 'energy' you're trying to work, but if we are assuming you're not getting too esoteric and you're basically talking about what I said, i don7t think you need to lose too much sleep.

As for concerns about the type of wood, what people around the world know as teak refers to approximately 170 kinds of tree, so anyone insisting on that is simply playing into the hands of unscrupulous timber-traders! The best hardwood to go for is simply a good, close-grained local hardwood, preferably dried over time (but that is exorbitant) but kiln-dried has advantages too, and thus less susceptible to warp and cracking.

I know people who have imported fine sculptures and woodwork from other countries only to find they have not liked the atmospheric conditions locally and have started to warp and crack, and in soe cases this goes for antiques which have been fine for centuries until moved to another part of the world too.

BTW, some people will argue that oaks for example, which have preservatives known as tannin (tannic acid based - used for tanning leather, and incidentally the stuff that makes your teeth go brown if you drink a lot of tea/red wine) are good for toughening your hands over repeated hitting (it's also a minor antiseptic/astringent). I've never seen any evidence of that, but it may make sense, especially if your wood is relatively fresh.

[Mr Punch]

yes, save your money and get a good one made out of hardwood preferrably teakwood.You can make a PVC one extremely cheaply.
the sound and feeling makes a big difference especially if you do the poi-pai jeung section. While the sound is very very special, and I love it, it is not so important for your kungfu. Of course there is the expression that 'one sound is one move' on the dummy but if your teacher is good, he'll teach you the correct way to hit it, so you'll learn the energy and be able to recognise the differetn sound from your PVC one when you hit that correctly.

Completely BTW, I would suggest although working on the dummy requires a good sound, that hitting someone in real life should be as quiet as possible. Eg. loud slapping paks are losing kinetic energy to sound energy (basic physics) and IME the ones that hurt more are the silent ones.

[Sho Nuff]

Mr Punch,

Thanks for the reply. How would you mount the pvc Mook Jong?

[Toby]

I agree with Mr Punch. Local hardwood over teak. I've got local hardwood and there are 2 things I do (recommended by others at my school) to preserve it:

(i) buy some massive industrial hose clamps (mine are about 1" wide x the diameter of the trunk ~ 10-12" or so) and periodically tighten them. I've got 4 but others use 3. 1 at the top, 1 at the bottom, 1 just above where the leg enters a the front and 1 I don't remember offhand. Either above the lower arm or just below the upper arms (I think the former). At any rate, none of them are placed where they interfere with my dummy work. I was amazed how much the trunk can contract if it's still drying (or maybe it's due to (ii)).

(ii) drill a large diameter hole straight down from the top. Mine's about 3/4" diameter x 8-10" (before you hit the top armholes!) and periodically top it up with linseed oil (and up to 50% thinner if the climate/season requires it). This'll keep your trunk moist. Beware - it'll drip linseed oil through cracks while it fills, and once full it'll only need a tiny bit to top it up. Initially it drank it up, like a couple of litres (minus the dripped out stuff). The oil on the ground will make a mess.

Doing (i) and (ii) I actually shrunk external cracks in my (naturally dried) local hardwood trunk and they've stayed that size since I made it maybe 2-3 years ago. That reminds me it's time to check the hose clamps again.

[tjwingchun]

I agree with Mr Punch. Local hardwood over teak. I've got local hardwood and there are 2 things I do (recommended by others at my school) to preserve it:

Great recommendations, best source of cheap wood are tree surgeons/landscape gardeners as they just want rid of them rather than make money out of them like a wood merchant and the ones I talk to suggest that slow growing fruit trees being the best.

I used to make dummies years ago and to sidestep the cracking issue I used seasoned timber, now 9" diameter trees take a very long time to season properly and are therefore expensive however I utilised three 9"x3" planks glued and screwed together for a cheap and effective result.

My dummy at home is just a telegraph post in the UK you can pick them up for around £20, they are pine and treated with creosote. The arms are the hardest wood I could get and the leg took the longest to find walking around a local wood to spot a branch of the right size and angle.

Recently I have been considering getting branches of fruit trees to turn into arms to see if they would be suitable just me thinking on the inexpensive side of things again.

I have heard some good reports about plastic but personally I have a love of the look of good grained timber. My Sifu's dummy is the fables 'iron wood' from China and weighs a ton, it did develop cracks when he move from Hong Kong due to the change in humidity but it is still effective enough.

The most important thing about the dummy is knowing how to train on it, not what it is made of, but I must admit it is better to have a dummy that 'feels' right.

[Sho Nuff]

Do you recommend using the linseed oil (and in the same way) no matter what type of wood is used?

[tjwingchun]

Do you recommend using the linseed oil (and in the same way) no matter what type of wood is used?

I know it is not my recommendation but I would say yes, when I first started training with a pole I soaked it many times in linseed oil and continued to apply it for years until I broke it lol.

Any wood will benefit from it, how you apply it may vary though. The process descibed I can understand to be the easiest and once finished you could always use the hole for a flower holder :D

[Sho Nuff]

How does a spring frame Mook Jong compare to a standard frame one?

[Toby]

My dummy at home is just a telegraph post in the UK you can pick them up for around £20, they are pine and treated with creosote. The arms are the hardest wood I could get and the leg took the longest to find walking around a local wood to spot a branch of the right size and angle.I considered the same thing here in Oz. But I'm a bit scared of creosote. It used to be possible to find old poles that predated creosote treatment but I doubt it any more. Sawmills have cheap poles - my classmate bought one for $20. I had access to a long-dead standing tree in great shape and cut it down, stripped the bark, sanded it back and have a dummy body that ranges from 9" to 12" IIRC. I've got a spare trunk that's kinda flawed (flat with a knot) on one side but would be fine on the opposite side. The flaws would kind of make measuring for holes etc difficult. If you know someone with a bush property it wouldn't be hard to find a suitable dead tree I'd guess. In finding mine I found the standing trees much better than dead ones of similar age on the ground - the ones on the ground were typically more rotten on one side, eaten by bugs/termites, etc.

[Mr Punch]

Mr Punch,

Thanks for the reply. How would you mount the pvc Mook Jong?You're welcome. :) there are as many ways to mount them as there are variations on space in your place and noise limitations for your neighbours and things. The most inventive PVC one I've used was a 9" PVC body with the limbs made properly from hardwood which fit perfectly inside the body for transport. Also inside were wooden supports and industrial bungee-type bands (no idea what they were made of) so it could be mounted on the back of a door, and then the door could be closed for stability. sounds dangerous, but you could really hit the thing and it had enough give to give you the right movement and was solid enough to take the damage. No damage to the door which was surprising. Made a helluva row though.

Was also **** heavy to carry about, but hell, we do kungfu! :D :o


...best source of cheap wood are tree surgeons/landscape gardeners as they just want rid of them rather than make money out of them like a wood merchantTrue, but sometimes they're cutting down trees that are riddled with bugs right? So you have to be careful!


and the ones I talk to suggest that slow growing fruit trees being the best.From a garden setting they're probably quite good. Apple's crush lateral resistance isn't so great from what i remember though. Cherry would be peachy (foresters' pun :p :o :rolleyes: ) but any good tree surgeon would sell it for a fortune.


they are pine and treated with creosote.:eek: :eek: :eek: Possibly one of the most carcinogenic substances used regularly in everyday settings known to man, and not at all recommended for abrasion wounds... it's a serious contact killer and can cause immediate numbness for those who handle treated wood without gloves. I'd be pretty cagey about putting that **** on my fence let alone something I'll be hitting... adn I'd also be pretty cagey about some wood varnishes.


Do you recommend using the linseed oil (and in the same way) no matter what type of wood is used?It7s a good general one, and it won't do any harm to your fists or the wood, though a good wood merchant should be able to recommend specific ones. Whether they'll be non-toxic is another matter.

[Toby]

... adn I'd also be pretty cagey about some wood varnishes.Good point. I use this (http://www.organoil.com.au/deckingoil/index.html). Maybe I'm a victim of their marketing, but I can't for the life of me find anything adverse about the toxicity of their product.

[Toby]

Oh, and Sho Nuff I found this thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34849) while searching for a picture of my frame for you. Somewhere in the thread there's a picture of mine. Things I've changed:

(i) lifted it a bit higher on bricks, but I want to rebuild the frame higher and wider instead and maybe even use metal so I've got an excuse to buy a welder.
(ii) moved the "shin" to more of an angle instead of vertical like it was in the photo.

And there's also a lot of the same stuff in that thread as in this one. Some guy called "Mat" ;) even talks about creosote and its dangers.

[tjwingchun]

:eek: :eek: :eek: Possibly one of the most carcinogenic substances used regularly in everyday settings known to man, and not at all recommended for abrasion wounds... it's a serious contact killer and can cause immediate numbness for those who handle treated wood without gloves. I'd be pretty cagey about putting that **** on my fence let alone something I'll be hitting... adn I'd also be pretty cagey about some wood varnishes.


Thanks for telling me I should be dead :eek: I thought the varnish would protect me!!! :D I was more worried that it had been floating around in the river Tyne and all the niceties that it contains along with the teddy bears arms!!!!

Seriously though I have been warned and appreciate the knowledge. I have been thinking of getting a new one as after 20+ years of getting smacked around and used to demonstrate knife attacks it is a bit worse for wear.

[IronFist]

I made one with an 8.5" diameter PVC body. The limbs, leg, and stand are all wood, of course.

Pics of it in the link in my sig.

[reneritchie]

I forget the character now, but when I saw it in old Chinese writings (pre-HK), the character for the wood used represented a "soft", not "hard" wood. Kind of intuitive.

Paradoxically, the first Jong I trained on was hard-as-heck maple and my knuckles hated it...