getting qi from the tree

[diz84]

the other night me and my friend was at the park,
(we smoked some weed b4 we went)
and i dont know much about tai chi but we mucked around and got power from the tree. Since we were a bit high i felt the qi from the tree really easy to get when i was high, my question is what excersises can uo wif the tree? like when u get the qi how do i keep it ?
sorry if i offended anyone...

d

[Crimson Phoenix]

Apparently you already know how to get the qi from the grass :D
Seriously, I heard of an exercise in which you hug the tree. But what I don't recall exactly is the part about your position in regard to that of the sun: I know that you can either get the qi from the tree or make the tree regulate your own qi depending on wether you hug the side opposite to the sun or the side where you have the sun shining in your back...but I don't remember which is which. It follows the theory of yin and yang though, and it should be easy to logically retrieve which side is wich...I'd say that you should be opposite to the sun to get the qi, but then again I'm not sure...
Phoenix

[Braden]

"Hugging the tree" is a descriptive name for an exercise which doesn't literally involve hugging trees.

But to answer the original question, in traditional taoist thought, you can indeed exchange or absorb chi from trees as well as from a variety of other sources.

If you're interested in this, you should seek instruction in qigong and/or the internal martial arts.

[Wongsifu]

you dont actually want to get qi from the tree its like stealing its life force, but you can discharge oyur chi into the tree because the tree gets negative energy thrives off it and in return gives us positive energy we thrive on, just put both hands on the tree, give it energy and let the tree purify it and give it back to you.

erm i dont really know if it is karmically correct though because you dont know if the tree wants to take your negative so i wouldnt reccomend doing it,

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[wufupaul]

I read an article in a KF magazine a few years back, I'll see if I can find it. The chi gung guy in the article suggested pine, cause it had the most chi, or oak. I have heard my teacher talk about it before, he used oak trees. I tried it on a pine tree once, and I didn't feel a darn tootin' thing though.

"But I hope you leave enough room for my fist, cause I'm going to ram it into your stomach!"-Arnold Schwarzenegger

[IronFist]

Yeah Wongsifu I was gonna say, that sounds like kind of bad karma there.

I read a post once many years ago (aol board) that said if you wait around a tree, you will almost get an "answer" as to whether or not you can take energy from it.

I guess a tree who wants some good karma is willing to loan you some energy?

I can't see doing this every day. Maybe if I had a big fight coming up I'd borrow some qi from a tree, though :P just kidding.

Is it bad karma to cut the grass?

Iron

[Crimson Phoenix]

Braden, nonononono, I know the zhang zhuan, I heard about the exercise of hugging a real tree, and as a matter of fact some doctors in France says they can speed up patients recovery or even get reduction of autism for that (I won't judge on that topic).
And NO it is not bad karma, you're not stealing away the tree's life force...obviously, the tree won't wither if you do it, right?? it cannot be bad karma, since humans are a part of nature, and living implies an exchange of energy from every part of nature to every part of nature, it's the way, it's life...it's not as bad a karma as for example cutting roses without any other reasons than offering them to your girlfriend, or even cutting some spinach t oeat them...right??...and if you follow buddhist cosmogony, plants are not a good thing to reincarnate in, it's even worse than animals...so if you go there, maybe getting qi from the tree actually implies that the tree gets good karma for helping you out...so if you throw the karma issue in that, at worse it is neutral karma, but certainly not bad...

[Fish of Fury]

simplified, plants "inhale" carbon dioxide and "exhale" oxygen, humans inhale oxygen and exhale CO2...so we have a mutually supportive symbiotic relationship.
maybe the same thing applies to Qi.
ie. our "bad" Qi = "good" Qi for trees, and vice versa. ???

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[wujidude]

from www.wuji.com/treeqigong.htm (http://www.wuji.com/treeqigong.htm):
" Tree Qi Gong

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's start from the basics: everything is energy, everything is energy at various levels of vibration; matter to light, body-thoughts-spirit. One way to think about energy is as if it's water in its many forms: an ice cube, water, steam, or humidity.

Though what I'll be talking about here is primarily from the Lung Men Daoist Qi Gong (a parent of bagua zhang) just about every branch of Qi Gong has a version of tree Qi Gong. Pa Kua has tree qi king in the basic level of 'Bird Enters Forest' .

The basic principle of tree Qi Gong is that trees are the guardians of the earth. They take what are toxins from other life forms and feed on it, transforming it into useful products for the planet; they are the filters of the planet.

Every form of life, or matter (energy) also has a type of energy field around it to some extent. Just as a sound doesn't really go to a certain distance and stop, energy and fields of energy are much the same way. Energy radiates out in all directions from each being, just getting fainter as it gets further away from it's central source. This means that beyond our perception these energy fields interact and blend to a certain extent influencing each other. As we practice the zhan zhuang and certain Qi Gong over a period of time we can begin to feel this field energy emanating from us. This feeling of qi is first between our hands, as we begin to develop our Qi Gong and increase our own qi and awareness of it, our vitality increases and our qi shines brighter - stronger. The way to develop this is practicing the zhan zhuang daily. This is a very slow and individual process, training with a Qi Gong master can accelerate this process.

If we have an internal weakness or sickness, instead of building up a reservoir of qi as we practice the qi is directed to heal the illness or weakness. If our minds are busy and can't calm down, much of the qi is used up by the thoughts and nervous energy expenditure (Stress depletes much qi). Practicing too much fa-jin movements also depletes our qi reservoir. The mind uses up much energy in it's functioning which is why basic meditation and learning to calm and focus the mind is very important. As our health improves and our mind learns to center we begin to build up our qi reservoir.

Once our qi begins to build, along with our awareness, we not only become aware of our own qi but also that around us. A good example of this is being in a room when a depressed or angry person enters; the vibes change. Keep in mind all energy isn't all the same so some types of energy may: flow, mix, merge, change, irritate or bump into each other. We're talking about a limitless levels of vibrations.

The basic assumption of tree Qi Gong is that trees also feed on and filter pure energy - all vibrations. Through our practice we can open up and permit a greater exchange of qi with plants for healing, insight or knowledge. Even without specific tree Qi Gong or being aware of it, anytime we're around a forest, or wooded area we are benefiting from a boost of our own energy by being so close and exposed to the trees. Try doing taiji or basic meditation in an old growth forest, the energy is so thick you can almost see it (some people can see it). As with all Qi Gong, tension - muscular or mental inhibit the flow or exchange of qi. If we walk relaxed through a wooded area we are basically doing a minor type of tree Qi Gong. Anytime we practice around a tree or healthy plants we have an exchange of qi with the surroundings and we benefit on very subtle levels.

The most basic tree Qi Gong is practicing our zhan zhuang with a tree. Begin zhan zhuang until you can feel the qi flow between your palms, then use your palms and try to feel the qi flow, aura, of the tree. When you feel the current of the tree, this is the place to stop and use 'listening' energy. This is your practice. When you can feel the tree's qi flow, this creates a strong circuit, your energy gets hooked into the flow of the tree's qi stream. If you can't feel the energy between your palms just practice your zhan zhuang keeping your palms about 6" away from the tree. Another method is sitting in a meditation posture slightly away from the trunk, focus on the color of the bark as a column of qi, then see your qi the same color and merging with the tree. Open up all cells and pores, blending with the tree's qi.

Though there are specific visualizations and certain exercises to do with some styles, this basic method of focusing on feeling the energy connection I believe is the best. We permit the energy to flow as it should, and the changes and cleansing happens naturally, without forcing or interfering in any way. Just open up to what you feel or completely empty your mind.

Though in some styles of tree Qi Gong there are specific instructions of what to do with each tree and what each tree is good for, personally I don't think things can be classified so specifically considering we're all different and complex. What one person needs, or enjoys is completely wrong for another. As you practice and increase your awareness; what you'll find is that each tree, not merely species, has it's own personality. The range spans all feelings: happy, sad, healing, angry, neutral, energetic, calming, aggressive, strong, soft . . . Also the time of year changes the feeling of the tree's energy current. Don't stand by a tree you feel a negative response from. This energy-link is a healing-link, a purification of our system. The calmer and emptier our minds are the greater the exchange, there is less resistance to the exchange of qi flow.

Try this 'listening-energy' with all types of plants, house plants as well. Spider plants, sanseverias, and African violets are considered good energy plants but see what you feel. If you're ill you may not want to over burden a small-newly planted tree or non-vigorous house plant.

Is there a certain spot in a park where you like to sit, read a book or just rest? In your yard? Check out the plants around you.

One theory of tree Qi Gong is that there is a subtle exchange, cellular, of information whenever the energy-link is great. So. . . on some level we are learning or absorbing information when we practice.

The size of the tree makes a difference, the location of the tree will make a difference. If you don't feel comfortable practicing your tree Qi Gong in public you may just sit by a tree with a book, pretend to be reading the book, hands in zhan zhuang position on your lap. In some clubs and arts you hear specific instructions to stand with your back to the north or south, only stand by such and such a tree as you practice to absorb the proper energy of the area.. Master Tchoung would say walk around, feel the area - you'll find the right spot and right direction. If it feels right then the energy currents must be in harmony.

The following is a list of some trees that certain Qi Gong masters agree have these characteristics. Don't take them as law however, everyone is different. But, if you can't feel the energy of trees yet, these are a good place to start with. The colors are from the Five Element theory of Qinese medicine. The color being that of the bark. Which of the five element colors does it come closest to? It's thought that each tree/color benefits the organ associated with it. You visualize the tress's qi and your qi the same color and merging. Sometimes the colors are merely used in healing meditations for specific organs. As you practice and your awareness increases, trust your feelings and disregard the lists.

Some tree Qi Gong methods visualize drawing the earth or tree's qi in through the feet, filling the body, merging with the tree and extending up to the crown of the tree. Another method, usually by a weeping tree, drawing the tree's qi in through the crown of the head, filling the body, then sinking the qi into the ground.

Tree
Color
Organ
Element

Apple
Red
Heart/sm int.
Fire

Poplar
White
Lungs/lg int.
Metal

Cypress
black
kidney/bladder
Water

Pine
green
liver/gll bl
wood

Willow
Yellow
spleen/stomach
earth


According to information from a workshop with Zhang Jie here are some characteristics: cypress and cedars are thought to nourish yin qi and reduce heat. willows draw dampness out, elms calm the mind and strengthens the stomach, maples reduce pain, locusts clear internal heat and balances the heart, firs clear bruises and reduce swellings, hawthorns aid digestion and lower blood pressure, birches detoxify and clear dampness, plums nourish the spleen and stomach.

One method I find working through my own tree Qi Gong practice is drawing in the tree's qi with each inhalation. Though most tree Qi Gong work in the 'aura' of the tree; I've found that touching the trunk and visualizing inhaling the qi through the lao kung point, then either sinking it to the tantien or grounding it is very powerful.


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Copyright © 1998 ATDale/Internal Wushu Arts"

[Bak Mei]

I discovered this as a young pot head hippy, before I began studying internal arts -- the truth.

At twilight, sitting in my girlfriend's backyard, I would see the slight arua of a group of trees about 40 yards away. As I focused on the trees and nothing else I saw their arua grow until it encompassed everything. At that time I took it as its energy connecting to the universal energy. Since that time my respect for trees has grown. I never truly felt chi then.

I am now a student of an internal master and a believer. I have now felt it though it is new to me. I love trees. I live at the beach and love it, but the one thing I miss is a big park with trees.

Stillness in the heart of motion.

[PlasticSquirrel]

it leads to bad karma to steal qi from trees. this is done in china, but some more advanced people advise strongly against it. try it more, and you will eventually kill the tree.

of course, that is just for absorbing qi. i'm not sure about regulating your qi by using the tree's... that's an interesting topic, though. could we both balance our qi as well as give the tree useful qi? if we could... well, it would be cool.

oops-- forgot to tell you what to do with the qi/how to store it. if there are no good teachers around, the best you can do is get a good book and practice what it teaches you. what you'll need is some basic abdominal breathing and a few exercises to open up vessels, meridians, channels, and points. for this, i would highly recommend yang jwing-ming's book qigong for health and martial arts. it gives a very good look at the different approaches and gives a lot of information on external, internal, medical, and martial qigong. don't expect to be able to do everything right away, though. some stuff takes time. :)

[This message was edited by PlasticSquirrel on 08-20-01 at 12:41 PM.]

[Crimson Phoenix]

The tree is more part of nature than any human can be if not enlightened enough...the tree has a direct connection with heaven qi and earth qi...I would be interested in seeing someone pump so much qi from a tree that the tree dies...not that I like to harm plants...
I tell you, it's NOT bad karma...it's being part of nature, it's neutral karma, you're not killing or vampirising anyone....if you take a bucket out of the sea, does it make a big difference?? A mature tree can handle more qi than you'll ever have in your own life...another example: in chinese qi theory during sexual intercourse, the man loses qi while the woman gains it...so is your gf building up bad karma everytime you make love to her? And you, when you realize that, do you get bad karma by making love to her while knowing that you build up her bad karma? It is an endless wheel...
Western minds have always seen much more in the buddhist concepts of karma and reincarnation than the buddhist themselves really meant...as we say here in France we try to be "more royalist than the king"...

BTW, great posts, Bak Mei and Wuji

[IronFist]

Crimson said:

and if you follow buddhist cosmogony, plants are not a good thing to reincarnate in, it's even worse than animals...

I've never heard anything about being able to be reincarnated as a tree. I always assumed plants were conscienceless, and just like extensions of the eart. Has anyone else heard this?

so is your gf building up bad karma everytime you make love to her? And you, when you realize that, do you get bad karma by making love to her while knowing that you build up her bad karma?

You making love to her is a conscience choice on your part. Who said anything about it being "bad" energy she recieves?

Iron

[Crimson Phoenix]

that's my point, ironfist...it is stupid to say that: the girl doesn't receive bad karma even if she takes away some of your qi, and reciprocally you don't get bad karma while making love to her....IF she got bad karma for draining your qi, then you'd get bad karma in return from making love to her while being genuinely aware that she'll build up bad karma during the act...BUT it doesn't work this way...at worse she turns your mind away from enlightenment for a moment but deep down inside it is your choice, you fell to the pleasure of flesh, fine, you'll lose sight of enlightenment until your brain gets rid of the sexual excitation...but you won't build bad karma, you'll just lose some precious time...
So in the same way, exchanging qi with a tree is not bad karma, it can be neutral or even good karma, but definitely not bad...
As for reincarnation, you must remember that there is not 1 buddhism, but many...everywhere where humans are dealt with, there are different views and dissensions...in buddhism it happened too, there was a great schism and now there are countless types of buddhism, each with their own theories and meethods...
Anyway, there is something worse than reincarnation in plants: reincarnation in hungry ghosts, eternally unsatisfied, eternally hungry and thirsty but burnt everytime they touch food or drinks...now that was a bad karma!!

[dhyana]

Crimson said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and if you follow buddhist cosmogony, plants are not a good thing to reincarnate in, it's even worse than animals...
[/quote]


Well, no offense -- but if you studied Buddhist cosmogony, then you would know that you CANNOT be reincarnated as a plant.

We have:
- Hell-Beings
- Hungry Ghosts
- Animals
- Humans
- Asuras (some place these below humans)
- Gods

Plants are not included in the realms.

-----------------
"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They KNOW it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
- Robert M. Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

[IronFist]

Joe_ said:

Well, no offense -- but if you studied Buddhist cosmogony, then you would know that you CANNOT be reincarnated as a plant.

We have:
- Hell-Beings
- Hungry Ghosts
- Animals
- Humans
- Asuras (some place these below humans)
- Gods



That's what i've been told. Except I heard below gods was demi-gods, but same thing i guess. How could they be below humans?

I also bought a book for this girl for christmas who was interested in buddhism, and it said there was a sixth realm, i forgot what it was and where it fell in the scheme of things, but it wasn't plants. Perhaps I'll ask her for it if next time I see her (she used to live on my floor in college, but I probably won't see her anytime soon).

Now I'm curious.

Iron

[Crimson Phoenix]

Joe, why do you think I mentionned the many different traditions of buddhism? Like in our western religions, most of what has been written in buddhist tradition has never been told by buddha himself, but "invented" by his followers...some buddhist traditions don't recognize the ashuras and hungry ghosts: you have animals, humans, buddhas (ie "nothingness, extinction of karma, nirvana), period...some of them have plenty of gods, while it seemed that buddha recognized only Marha, the great corruptor...we cannot speak of one buddhism because in fact there are many...even the two biggest currents, mahahyana and hinahyana have radically diverging theories about some stuffs, not to mention vajrahyana (tibetan buddhism) which has theories of its own...
We can only say "in buddhist tradition, this is like this" when we mention the core principles that make buddhism what it is, when we want to speak about who are the gods, the realms etc...then there is no unity at all and with 100 traditions, you'll find 100 cosmogony...
So yes, indeed I was too fast by saying "it's like this"...I should say "it's like this that my mentors have taught me"...
Happy now? :D

[Crimson Phoenix]

Some say asuras are below human because their nature is fixed, they cannot evolve more and reach nirvana (well, it's still pretty cool to be an asura)...they are already enlightened but cannot go any further, while humans can...
It's strikingly similar to some mystical traditions of christianism in which angels are seen as less glorious than human because they can only stay angels, while humans in all their despicability have the power to transcend themselves to higher levels...

[origenx]

Li Hongzhi actually speaks against "qi vampirism" from trees in his book - that you're basically sucking the lifeforce out of the tree and will weaken and eventually kill it by doing so. Don't know if it's true or not - but just thought I'd mention that...

[Crimson Phoenix]

Interesting...apparently and not surprisingly, different people have different beliefs...thanks for inputting this source, it renders the subject even more complex and interesting...

[Nexus]

I am sure many taiji practioners read the news paper, so they have so much concern for the qi of the trees but at the same time support their demise.

Something to think upon...
<font color="red">
Visit a local newspaper. Ask how many tons of paper they use a week. Did you know it takes 17 trees to make a ton of paper? How many trees does the newspaper use each week? Do they use recycled paper?</font>

I am not for/or against the use of trees for qi gong. I do qi gong 10 feet from a forest 5/7 days during the week. I find it fresh and wonderful. Do what works for you. The practice of the internal arts is body and mind, exercise both, but too much of either one can be frustrating to the other...

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Sam Wiley]

Why would anyone want to deplete the qi of something that supports their own life? Our relationship with trees is pretty much symbiotic, and to do something like that, if it's possible at all, would be self-destructive in the end. Instead of trying to take qi from a tree, why don't you try to exchange more with it? Just practice your qigong beneath the trees, and let your natural exchange grow.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[PlasticSquirrel]

what li hongzhi says:

"In a park in the Northeast, I noticed that a group of pine trees were dead. No one knows what kind of qigong some people were practicing there: They would roll all over the ground and afterwards collect qi from the trees with their feet one way and with their hands another. Soon after, all the pine trees over there turned yellow and died. Was what they did a good deed or a bad one?"

sam is right. no matter how you look at it, he's right.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Nexus, goooodddd point!
Sam...here is a problem...have you ever seen humans live in symbiosis with anything lately? We are on the top of the predator scale, so high that our only predator is our own specie!
Even the bacterias in our intestinal tracts that help us digest things could well live in some other place...in theory, we should live in harmony with all the animal and plant species around us, exchanging our qi to regulate each others...in practice, well you can see what's happening...
As for the pine tree example, it's quite interesting but it's light proof...you can't establish a causal relation so easily...if I touched someone and that someone died of a heart attack or heamorragy the day after, it would be kinda fast to say he/she died because of my dim mak, right?
I'm no qigong expert, but how can a human deplete qi from a tree? these plants are far more stronger than us, live longer, resist to extreme climates...now if you follow qi theory, isn't it a proof that they have plenty of qi (not to mention that they have roots, things we humans spend a lifetime trying to acquire while practicing CMA...OK, it's a pun, but it's not a coincidence if the chinese chose the word "roots")...how could a frail creature like us steal the qi from the tree so much that it withers??
Again, I'm no expert, but I'm convinced that exchanging qi with a tree can't be dangerous...it's just me...

[grounded]

I am not a student of Buddhist cosmology but I can say that in Hinduism (an older religion), one who is a voyeur during his/her life is reincarnated as a tree that they may be seen naked by all. The will of the dying person determines the nature of the next for the entity occupies. As a tree or even a blade of grass has Qi there is no reason (from Hindu perspective) that a living being could not be reborn as any other living being.

(this has nothing to do with China, but is intersting, regardless
;) )‡

[Crimson Phoenix]

Yessssss!! Good post!
You know, buddha was hindu before being...uuhh..buddha LOL so primal buddhism was heavily influenced by the concepts of the hindu mind...

[Sam Wiley]

I would say that practicing vampiric qigong to the point of killing another living thing is going to an extreme it ideally should not. Why would a cattle farmer kill off all his cows just to make a dozen hamburgers for a cookout? I would say that draining another living thing of its entire life force is simply overkill, since there are plenty other sources from which to gather qi. The practicioner should have long ago moved on to another source of energy rather than completely depleting a single source.

One day man will have to pay for his transgressions against nature by living with the consequences, unless he can find a way to rectify them before the consequences are unavoidable. Man still has a chance to live in harmony with nature instead of trying to subvert it to his will. Maybe he can do so before it's too late.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Nexus]

You are starting to sound like one of those religious preachers on the christian network Sam.

Sorry to burst your bubble ;-)
(joke)

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[dhyana]

Crimson,

I meant no offense in my comment's about being a plant as it pertains to Buddhist cosmology. You're right that I took the words you said completely literally, because that's how it came across to me.

Ironfist, what Crimson said about the Asuras is very close to what I've been told about why they are sometimes considered lower than humans. I would say it's not exactly that they "cannot" be enlightened (after all they can of course be reborn as a human in the future!), but it's that they are basically slaves to the Gods. They are considered the "messengers" of the Gods and basically do not have the freedom that we as humans have.

In Buddhism it is said that the human-realm is somewhat of a turning point in the cosmogony of beings. That is to say, below us, the beings have very little choice in their actions -- for example, animals must kill. Above us, this is also true -- Gods can only be benevolent. It is only in the human realm where we really have the choice to do EITHER good or evil, and it is this very fact that allows us to so easily reach enlightenment from this realm. The beings in the other realm are caught with a one-track-mind so to speak.

Joe_

-----------------
"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They KNOW it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
- Robert M. Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

[Sam Wiley]

LOL. I guess I do! You know, I almost started my own ministry a while back. I was going to call it the First Ever Church of Green Eggs and Ham. I stood outside a bookstore one night with a copy of Green Eggs and Ham and gave a Sermon on the Curb about how the Green Eggs and Ham represented the blood and flesh of Christ, how the boy in the book was a sinner who finally realized the error of his ways and accepted Christ, and at the end held out my baseball cap and demanded of those watching, "If money is a measure of faith, how faithful are YOU?" I swear to you this one guy opened his wallet to give me money! (No, I did not take it, I told him it was all a joke.) Maybe I should be an evangelist. ;)

*********

[Wongsifu]

couple of points
1 i donno about buddhist cosmology but the truth of the matter is you do get reincarnated as a tree.

2 if you were to practise taoist techniques it would be possible to literally kill a woman whilst havign sex by draining her, yup thats bad karma but an interchange of energy is a whole different story.

3 the lower down the level of the scale of what you hurt the less the karma incurred hence why its bad to eat meat the karma involved is a lot heavier than that of eating fruit or killing trees to make paper.

4 dont question it , just seek the truth and these are the answers.

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[Nexus]

LOL @ Wongsifu in regards to #4.

But actually I agree with 1 & 2 but 3 & 4 will vary answers from one person to the next.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Nexus]

I made 50 dollars this week selling my tree qi on ebay.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Kristoffer]

About the tree-qi stuff... Someone mentioned that doing your taji near/in the woods or near a tree will have a good effect. BUT, what will happen if I do external kungfu there insted? Do I get all the good qi aswell?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Kristoffer]

Oh,, and do i get qi when im punching or kicking the trees? coz, I do that alot. :rolleyes:

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[CuTiEFighteR]

ummm....okay...

[Kristoffer]

WEEEEELLL?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[joedoe]

I'm not Buddhist, but my understanding was that plants and trees are not considered sentient life. My understanding is that you do not get reincarnated as plants. If it were the case, then how would you go about finding food sources without incurring bad karma?

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[prana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've never heard anything about being able to be reincarnated as a tree. I always assumed plants were conscienceless, and just like extensions of the eart. Has anyone else heard this?[/quote]
I have never heard it in any Buddhist texts either...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
so is your gf building up bad karma everytime you make love to her? And you, when you realize that, do you get bad karma by making love to her while knowing that you build up her bad karma?
[/quote]
Sexual Union without the ability to retain Bodhimind drops (aka kundalini drops) is considered impure in Buddhism and against precepts and will create bad kamma, and when I say kamma, I mean simply mental conditioning, attachment to the bliss. Sexual Union (or kammamudra) is taught only when a practioner has succesfully collected the winds in the heart chakra.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's what i've been told. Except I heard below gods was demi-gods, but same thing i guess. How could they be below humans?
[/quote]
Refering to the same thing, these beings are driven by kammic actions of jealousy. Their instinctual reincarnation is the realm of hungry ghost, due to the constant cravings of the formless god realm.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Some say asuras are below human because their nature is fixed, they cannot evolve more and reach nirvana (well, it's still pretty cool to be an asura)...they are already enlightened but cannot go any further, while humans can...
[/quote]In Buddhism, they are considering beings still suffering from the life cycle and is not considered enlightened. They are not in the best realm for reaching englightenment.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You know, buddha was hindu before being...uuhh..buddha LOL so primal buddhism was heavily influenced by the concepts of the hindu mind... [/quote]True, Hindu's influence is an important stepping stone to discovery of the formless realm of gods. Buddha has however also found that although their life cycles are considered in eons, as compared to the human realm, their pride on their endless pleasures makes them forget how they retained such merits in the first place, and many choose to return to the human realm to achieve perfect enlightenment, Buddhahood. Others who remain prideful, deplete their good kammas and are reborned in the hell realm. That is why pride is one of the causes of bad kamma in Buddhism.

Someone mentioned Daoist increasing their life energy by adsorbing that of their sexual partner. This, IMO is definitely bad kamma, as this is an act of selfishness, and shortens or harms the life drops of your partner. I am sure, not all Daoist practise this, I have never heard Daoist to be of such teachings. This must be an act of what is said in Cantonese as "Jao-Foh-Yap-Moh".

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[prana]

In the extreme cold hells, being are considered to suffer such coldness that they dry up and wrinkle and split into many pieces. Perhaps this could sound a little like a plant in cold winter ?
But definitely not taught this in Buddhism. Just an idea.

Also in Vipashyana, one is taught to remain aware of the food one eats, such as plants. These contain much energy, perhaps called Qi. Anyway, more food for discussion....

Great topic nevertheless... :)

[Kristoffer]

yeahhh :( keep ignoring me,, :(
*sob* *******s... ;) :D


com ON, does doing external art near a tree improve me in some magical way? getting alot of qi? Pleas explAin this to me. :confused:

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[joedoe]

Standing near a tree will help you - even according to modern science! Trees are supposed to emit negative ions (which are supposed to be good for us).

I can't imagine training an external style near trees could be bad for you :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[Fish of Fury]

don't know...never been attacked by tree!
Mr. Myagi

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[IronFist]

prana said, on being a demi-god:

Refering to the same thing, these beings are driven by kammic actions of jealousy. Their instinctual reincarnation is the realm of hungry ghost, due to the constant cravings of the formless god realm.

So you're saying that following a life as a demi-god or god, one is reborn as a hungry ghost because of bad karma incurred while being a demi-god or god? That sucks.

Is it possible to achieve enlightenment if you still have some bad karma (or even good karma) that hasn't been paid off yet?

Now I'm afraid of being reborn as something bad. What if in my last life I was like Hitler or something and now I have all this bad karma that's going to get me as soon as I walk outside today? Oh crap!

Iron

[prana]

The great Milarepa came from a life of killing and stealing to becoming a saint. Be mindful of being afraid to be reborned into the other realms, but do not attach yourself to this fear.

The time of death is the all important !

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[IronFist]

The great Milarepa came from a life of killing and stealing to becoming a saint. Be mindful of being afraid to be reborned into the other realms, but do not attach yourself to this fear.

Sorry prana, I have a few more questions for you.

1) Couldn't he have killed a lot in his last life, but at the time of that death, some really good karma from an even prior life was ripening and thus he was born a saint? So, he's born a saint, but he still has all that "killing karma" left to worry about?

2) If someone is good, only for fear of being reborn in a hell realm, wouldn't they be aquiring selfish karma, and thus bad karma?

3) Can killing be good karma? What if someone assassinated Hitler, thus preventing many many deaths?

4) I'm not bugging you with my questions am i?

Thanks,

Iron

[prana]

nope not bothered by your questions.

1.
http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Milarepa/Milarepa.htm here is a link. There are many writtings on this infamous yogi. It was actually in the same lifetime. Such is the benefit of practising Dhamma with Boddhicitta vow.

2. Yes, but one who acts in numerous goods, will have inherited a mindset of doing good. Although one who is motivated by fear is not the best, it is better than one who continues to kill, hurt etc.
Some lamas regards being reborned into Nirvana as a sad sign, because they have generated so much compassion to wish for themselves to be reborned in the hell states to help free the suffering beings.

3. One's body is a gift, built up of numerous Buddha's. Every living being has Buddha nature inside of them. We do not assassinate a tiger because it is about to kill 50 cows in its lifetime.... we could prevent it I suppose but this will lead to debate of uncontrollable proportions...

4. Nope.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[IronFist]

prana,

thanks for answering all my questions. I have one more that has been bugging me for a long time.

ok, having bad karma causes bad things to happen to you, and vice versa. So, is everything bad that happens to me a result of bad karma?

Is it possible for something bad to happen to me that is NOT a result of my bad karma? If this is not the case, then it could be reasoned that all of the Jewish people who died in WWII died because of their bad karma.

And, if everything that happens is a result of karma, then if I go break someone's arm, it happened because of something bad THEY did in a past life, and I should not incur any bad karma. I only broke their arm because THEIR bad karma was ripening at that moment.

Is that completely wrong? Can bad or good things happen that are random, and in no way related to karma?

I'm going crazy now thinking about this.

Thanks a lot,

Iron

[prana]

Hmm try not to think kamma as some sort of magical empowering phenomena. Although it may become instinctual, your kamma is something you can eliminate, undo or do.

Sometimes things happen not because of kamma directly, but because of our actions. So it is preferable that we request for forgiveness for all the sins we may have done, but it is mandatory that our actions be righteous.

If kamma was totally empowering, we would be like zombies, and things will happen to us uncontrollably and we would be better off sitting there and awaiting our outcome. However, on the whole, it is our kamma that has caused us to be reborn in the realm of having to die, this is the nature of the life cycle. Sickness and death is a neccessary part of life.

Hope this helped you. In the QiGong group, I had a link to the Dalai Lama's speech on kamma. You should probably read his discourse on kamma and what it is. Although it is long, it is also easier to understand...

[Nexus]

I just read a very great book about the Dalai Lama this weekend. He is indeed very interesting and compassionate. I hope things work out for the best with him and the Tibetan people, wish I could do something to help, maybe this message is doing something!!!

Prana, what is your affiliation with Tibetan Buddhism?

And what Gods do you pray to when you pray? I wonder this because when the "Buddha" saw oneness, how could he pray to something that he knew he was the same as, part of, etc. Its as if you are praying to yourself, just not your ego/id.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[prana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Prana, what is your affiliation with Tibetan Buddhism?

And what Gods do you pray to when you pray? I wonder this because when the "Buddha" saw oneness, how could he pray to something that he knew he was the same as, part of, etc. Its as if you are praying to yourself, just not your ego/id.
[/quote]


Hi Nexus, sorry if I answered your questions incorrectly, I am having trouble understanding some words you use.
I study meditate in accordance to the Tibetan teachings belonging to Naropa and Lama Tsongkhapa.

I mainly pray to the four Buddha's, depending on the need. They are Shakyamuni Buddha, Medicine Buddha, Vajrasattva Buddha and of course, Buddha Avalokitashevra.

I didn't know that Buddha prayed to a god that was himself. Perhaps during his meditation, he manifested himself as Heruka Chakrasambhava, a deity with a body as blue as Lapis Lazuli, whilst he was practising adsorbtion yogas.

Hope that answers your questions...

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[Crimson Phoenix]

Prana, very deep posts...
Ironfist, to add up to the infos already provided by Prana on karma, it is said that "your actions are your only belongings, they are the ground on which you stand"...your actions make your karma, and it's totally up to you to act accordingly to the dharma...if you fail, there is no other guy responsible but you, if you hurt someone, don't think about "it's their bad karma that lead them to that", just realize that you are 100% responsible for your actions...
It reminds me of what a wise karate practicionner of old (Master Henry Plee, only non japanese to have ever been awarded a tenth dan by japan) told me once...he said "remember young man, everything that happens to you, wether good or bad, is your sole responsibility...even bad luck that seems to fall down on you, when you see things clearly, you can always trace them back to something you did or should have done but didn't"
Apprently, when men all over the world become awake, they all have the same view of what is behind the veils, whatever their culture is...
As for Buddha praying a God, it is my understanding that in the same ways boddhisatvas are prayed, it is more in a fashion of abiding and obeying to higher spiritual principles and succeeding to make them live in you than really praying higher beings in the sense we understand with our judeo-christian minds...
Buddha himself knew that men are quick to give birth to gods and warned (or his closest disciples put these words in his mouth, at least) "I am only a man, not a god...if you want to pray, pray the buddha in you, not me"
I Hope these humble thoughts fit well in the discussion...

Om Mani Padme Um

[prana]

Crimson Phoenix

Excellent! I don't know how you put all that into such a little sentence but I am sure glad :)
On the side, I noticed you were in France. I wish I could be in Sud De La France et grimpe su Buoux 'or' Ceuse ! Desolee mon France est tres terrible.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[Crimson Phoenix]

uhh..thanks Prana, I guess I was just lucky this time since it usually takes me many lines to deal with simple ideas hahhhah
Anyway, you've been to the south of France I see?? Nice place, I have to say ;-)
And don't worry about your french, the grammar is so twisted that even french peeps have troubles with it...you all wondered why french suck at foreign language? Well, it's because they already have troubles dealing with their own!!!
And before some do-not-verbally-abuse-frenchies league comes up to flame me (like something that cool would ever exist!), I want to say that I am french...hahahha lucidity hurts!

[GeneChing]

I didn't know where to post this. There's a vid but it looks just like you'd expect it to look.


Kung fu master climbs tree in seconds (http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch/kung-fu-master-climbs-tree-in-seconds/vi-AAqD9QJ)
Newsflare Duration: 00:33 6 hrs ago

Impressive footage has emerged from China of a 57-year-old kung fu man climbing 10 metres up a tree in five seconds. The video, filmed in Mudanjiang, Heilongjiang Province on March 19, shows the man named Liu Yang shimmying up the tree with ease. Liu works out for around one hour every morning by climbing trees.

[MarathonTmatt]

The great Milarepa came from a life of killing and stealing to becoming a saint. Be mindful of being afraid to be reborned into the other realms, but do not attach yourself to this fear.

Sorry prana, I have a few more questions for you.



Hello,
I am sort of familiar with Milarepa. I obtained a translation of his life's story when the Massachusetts Archaeological Society were thinning out their back-of-the-house library collection.

From what I understand, Milarepa's father was a well-off merchant. A young Milarepa would have been well-off, a pillar of his community, even endowed to the most beautiful girl of the choicest family in the village. All this changed when his father passed away, and his Uncle and Aunt, who were entrusted to look after the family in such an event, greedily seized his family's estate and fortune for themselves. Milarepa, his sister, and his mother were forced to work like slaves- even below the status of a slave- in their own home/fields. They were robbed by their Uncle and Aunt, and their family (cousins.) With his mother's last precious jewel, Milarepa left the village one day to go find a teacher. (this is pre-Buddhist [bardo] as his later teacher was the first to bring Buddhism into Tibet, reportedly, and Milarepa becomming the first major proponent/saint of Buddhism in the region.)

Milarepa's first couple of teachers were reportedly very powerful and gifted medicine people/ conjurers. Milarepa himself learned to conjure hail storms. On the day of his cousin's wedding, an extravagant event (that should have rightfully belonged to Milarepa, according to "mundane logic" so to speak); Milarepa conjured a giant hail storm that killed his cousin, cousin's bride, greedy, thieving Aunt and Uncle (who robbed him/ his direct family) and about thirty other conniving people associated with his Aunt and Uncle at the gathering.

The thing is, Milarepa realized that what he did was wrong and found himself repenting through Buddhism. His teacher, Marpa, the man who initially brought Buddhist scripture/ teaching into Tibet, made Milarepa go through many hardships and physical labors (for years) before teaching him scripture/ etc. ("the word.") Milarepa is said to have obtained enlightenment in just one life-time, a rare achievement, he reached a state of Buddha-hood.

In the Judeo-Christian Bible, this same kind of a concept is even expressed. For instance, King David of the Old Testament had an affair with Bathsheba, wife of Uriah the Hittite. David, who was said to be the "keeper of the natural animal forces" was tempted by just that- his lower, animalistic nature. King David is said to be guilty of adultery and "virtual murder" (murder of his character.) He was broken with remorse. On a material level, it would seem that he would reap what he sowed- his daughter Tamar for instance was raped and his wives violated in public. Yet, David was a "man after God's own heart", was always sincere in going directly to God in prayer, and in the end, was forgiven by the Lord. In fact, he was later married to Bathsheba (her name meaning "One declared that the thing promised shall be fulfilled; meaning, a swear by seven"). Some even say that it is no coincidence that Bethlehem was the birthplace of David as well as, later, Jesus the Christ.

[Edit: It was Milarepa's "awakening" that his conjouring the hail storm and killing 30+ people did absolutely no good. He realized he had spent that time trying to achieve a "wasteful" or unnecessary aim. I think he realized that the acquisition of material wealth is "Maya", or, an illusion- the illusory material world that people spend their lives involving themselves in. After cleansing himself from the years of hard labor and receiving the teachings, he did things like meditate for years in different caves, sustaining himself only on nettles. He was said to be a man of great power and abilities. My take away from Milarepa's life is not one of "he was a killer." I see it as he was supposed to grow up at least somewhat privelaged. This was stolen from him, his status became less than a slave. He harbored thoughts of revenge, in indeed did commit a horrible act of violence. He realized that this only brought more emptiness, and he started to understand the illusory nature of reality, repented through reform, and eventually attained Buddha-hood in one lifetime.

I can think of two ways this ties in to the main topic of the thread: concerning Wu De, martial morality. First of all, do not harbor thoughts of revenge. It is an "empty" aim, an "empty" emotion (only causes suffering). Second, how many modern people (general population) can even focus on something like traditional martial arts training. Most people aren't ever going to hold a horse stance for minutes on end or a Tai Chi "holding the post" position. Some people may never train any exercise in their lives, much less a practice that has the ability for self-cultivation.]