Bai See Ceremony

[The Xia]

I see some sifus dropping this tradition. However, I feel it's a good tradition that should keep going. It's a good way of documenting lineages and keeping them clear.

[SPJ]

Yes. I know that there are people still practicing these practices even in the 21st century.

however, the indoor students are still reserved for the "worthy" few.

The rest of the students are just fellow practitioners or "outdoor".

:D

[XiaoJieFu]

I think it's great - certainly only for a very very very select few who have the dedication. But if those people want to make the commitment, then I think it's fantastic.

[Shaolin Dude]

In Wah Lum, we start every class with a bai see ceremony. When the class ends, we recite the words on the altar and bow. very traditional

[TenTigers]

bai san and bai see are very different

[Shaolin Dude]

oh **** lol. in that case, we only do bai see during chinese new years right before we go out to chinatown for the parade

[omarthefish]

lol.


Dude, you still don't know what he's talking about. You do not "bai see" every year. It just happens once and that's it. It's like circumcision that way.

[Flying-Monkey]

I think he means when you become a close-door student.

[The Xia]

Shaolin Dude - This explains what a Bai See ceremony is.
http://www.hungfakwoon.com/BaiSi.htm

[David Jamieson]

It doesn't really fly in North American culture so much due to the huge gap in cultural belief systems.

But if people want to maintain the tradition then that's up to them. there's all kinds of archaic practices that are found in all sorts of traditions. Just behaviours that are external expressions of relationships for the community they exist within.

There's a lot of superfluous riggings and doings in any cultural traditions. they only have meaning if you give them meaning or choose to adhere to the given meanings.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

In addition to one on one discipleship, if the school or classes are big, the students are identified with years that they entered the school. usually one character is chosen. the characters may come from a poem or the school name etc.

This way the Bei Fen or generational status is identified.

for example, if the school name is Wu Shu Tai Chi etc. Wu Zi Bei (Wu character generation) would be the first 5 or 10 years that entered the school. Shu Zi Bei would be the next 5 or 10 years. And Tai Zi Bei etc etc.

They do not mean anything other than to identify among the students and classes sometime, there could be thousands or more.

--

:D

[Yao Sing]

I don't think it works here in the US. Too many bounce from school to school or cross train. I've seen disciples bail out onthe Sifu and system. In one case I believe all 12 disciples have moved on and left the system.

Plus you get the "I learned the real/secret stuff" arguments and I'm better than you becasue I was an "indoor" student.

Of course after the master passes away everyone becomes the one true indoor student. :)

[David Jamieson]

I think it is often because of the paradigm shift involved.

In north america, you have your individuality ingrained into you from very early on, so swearingf alleigances outside of the accepted constructs is a big leap for a lot of people.

when it is connected to their founded core beliefs then it is acceptable IE: loyalty to your army unit, captain etc, loyalty to you church community, pastor, loyalty to your direct blood family.

making filial ties to ones teachers in the north american modality or euro centric has been outmoded for a long time. apprenticships are rare and most fields of learning are standardized for any and all to attempt to undertake.

many factors.

of course there are people out there that are open minded and accepting of new things in their life and these people have an easier time making the crossover beyond just what they project upon it.

still, there is a lot to be said for both sides.

IE: the special relationship between master and student that comes with the handing down of traditions and knowledge and the strength of free will and bowing to no one as a genuine attribute of true freedom which is seen as true strength in the western paradigm.

even people that have no idea what to do with it want personal power. :)

[The Xia]

I don't see how a Bai See ceremony offends one's sense of individuality. A Bai See ceremony symbolizes the bond between a disciple and his sifu. It is also a good way of documenting lineages and keeping them clear.

[WinterPalm]

My Sifu does not conduct closed door versus open door or whatever. If you train hard and get the lessons, then you learn the next thing. Then the next and the next until you learn a lot more. It doesn't matter if some students see you learning advanced stuff because even if they wanted to imitate it, they would not understand it and maybe only superficially copy it (that is my understanding as to why people used to have hidden areas to train in, to prevent imitation and stealing).

It also begs the question: what is everybody else getting if one guy is getting the inside scoop? I've heard of schools teaching crap to most students and the good stuff to a select few...I definately don't agree with this. Everybody should get an equal chance and those that learn and understand learn the next...it makes sense to me that way.

[SPJ]

This comes from an age old practice in all professions in China.

The students still learn all the good stuff and not craps.

However, there are also some advanced stuff that are reserved for one or only a few advanced or very good students.

For the most part, we do not worry about these stuff or practices. B/c all the important stuff are in the basic/fundamental training which is available to every student.

If you are indoor, that means you are good enough and also need to carry on the school name, teacher's name and traditions in the future generations.

the rest of the students may also teach and pass on. and of course mentioning you study under the teacher for how many years etc and learn this and that from the teacher.

--

[Three Harmonies]

For those interested I wrote my senior dissertation on discipleship ceremonies in the Chinese martial arts. It can be found under the articles section of my site www.threeharmonies.com

Cheers
Jake :)

[Faruq]

Looks like the tradition's alive and well under Dr Yang Jwing Ming!

[The Xia]

My Sifu does not conduct closed door versus open door or whatever. If you train hard and get the lessons, then you learn the next thing. Then the next and the next until you learn a lot more. It doesn't matter if some students see you learning advanced stuff because even if they wanted to imitate it, they would not understand it and maybe only superficially copy it (that is my understanding as to why people used to have hidden areas to train in, to prevent imitation and stealing).

It also begs the question: what is everybody else getting if one guy is getting the inside scoop? I've heard of schools teaching crap to most students and the good stuff to a select few...I definately don't agree with this. Everybody should get an equal chance and those that learn and understand learn the next...it makes sense to me that way.
I don't think it's always the case that the disciple gets different material then the general populace of the kwoon. I know it happens but I think it’s difficult to have “secrets” these days with all the information out there. For example, if a non-disciple does Wong Fei Hung-Hung Gar for a good amount of time and doesn’t have the four pillars then he can see that something is up.

[ngokfei]

A good modern usage is only to make disciples out of those individuals who have already attained a level of rank (black belt or higher).

Discipleship is inducted into the completion of the ITP (Instructor Training Program)

this program is used to train future instructors. Those that complete the program can only become a disciple if they open a school/branch of there own.

Makes sense as why would you teach the entire system to anyone who has no intention of passing it on.

My teacher answered when asked "How long before I can become a instructor". Now in his mind Instructor means Sifu so he answered plainly 15 years.

so I think that is a good time period (15 years) before an individual can be accepted as a disciple.

[SevenStar]

I don't see how a Bai See ceremony offends one's sense of individuality. A Bai See ceremony symbolizes the bond between a disciple and his sifu. It is also a good way of documenting lineages and keeping them clear.

is such a ceremony really necessary? a bond like that is not really something that should be limited to people of the teacher's choosing, IMO. Any student desiring the bond should have it. I'll refer again to fight training. A coach and his fighter have that bond. ANY student who wants to fight will get the same bond, but that of course is their choice - you don't force them to fight, but once they make the committment, you are there for them.

[SevenStar]

My Sifu does not conduct closed door versus open door or whatever. If you train hard and get the lessons, then you learn the next thing. Then the next and the next until you learn a lot more. It doesn't matter if some students see you learning advanced stuff because even if they wanted to imitate it, they would not understand it and maybe only superficially copy it (that is my understanding as to why people used to have hidden areas to train in, to prevent imitation and stealing).

It also begs the question: what is everybody else getting if one guy is getting the inside scoop? I've heard of schools teaching crap to most students and the good stuff to a select few...I definately don't agree with this. Everybody should get an equal chance and those that learn and understand learn the next...it makes sense to me that way.

exactly. to quote baby joker ("next friday"):

"No more locked doors!"

[SPJ]

there is a difference/distinction between disciple/ di zi and students/ xue shen/tu.

students are general and entry levels.

disciples are more advanced and selective few.

my bro has many students but only 2 di zi. one from brazil, and the other from portugual.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

yeah, that's my point. He's got many students, but only a select few will get everything. ALL of them should get everything if they are dedicating themselves to training. Nothing should be withheld. Naturally, with many students, not all of them can share a close bond with the instructor/coach, but opportunities are there for those who want it, like my example with fight training. Why hide stuff?

[bakxierboxer]

is such a ceremony really necessary?

Who are you to say it is not?
As these things go, it is among the most private and restricted relationships.

In these not-yet-Socialist-States-of-America....
Even if you own/operate a facility of any kind that is "open to the public", you are still afforded the right to refuse your services to anyone for sufficient reason.
A restaurant is actually required to follow: "no shirt, no shoes, no service".
Martial Arts schools might choose to avoid having folks with a lengthy record of convictions for criminal assault.... sometimes even at the request of the local PD.


a bond like that is not really something that should be limited to people of the teacher's choosing

The right to freely associate with others works both ways.
"just because" is not sufficient reason for having any kind of relationship imposed on another.
Some types of relationships are actually even proscribed by law.


Any student desiring the bond should have it.

No "choice" about it?
Starting to sound like you're equating a coach or Master to the lowest level "worker" at a house of prostitution....
Hell, even a "street-walker" gets to walk away if the prospects look bad enough, and some of them might even get insulting about it.


I'll refer again to fight training. A coach and his fighter have that bond. ANY student who wants to fight will get the same bond, but that of course is their choice - you don't force them to fight, but once they make the committment, you are there for them.

Really?
What if, in your opinion, "they ain't got a shot"?
Don't you "owe" it to them to tell them so?
If they still refuse to listen to reason, wouldn't you just "blow them off", aka
"send them packing"?

Hmmmm..... earlier I mentioned a posited Socialist State and its business-practices/relationships. IIRC, even fewer folks get access to any fight/MA-coaching, let alone the "somewhat forbidden" Bai-Si type relationships.

Pete

[SevenStar]

In these not-yet-Socialist-States-of-America....
Even if you own/operate a facility of any kind that is "open to the public", you are still afforded the right to refuse your services to anyone for sufficient reason.
A restaurant is actually required to follow: "no shirt, no shoes, no service".
Martial Arts schools might choose to avoid having folks with a lengthy record of convictions for criminal assault.... sometimes even at the request of the local PD.

while hat is correct, it has zero to do with what is being talked about in this thread. Refusing to train someone is fine. However, if you accept them, you have accepted them. period.




No "choice" about it?
Starting to sound like you're equating a coach or Master to the lowest level "worker" at a house of prostitution....
Hell, even a "street-walker" gets to walk away if the prospects look bad enough, and some of them might even get insulting about it.

all things equal, the coach or master shouldn't be on a pedestal, so sure, you can liken one to that if you wish. When it's all said and done, any student he accepts - since he CHOSE to accept them - should be given equal treatment and receive the same level of training.




Really?
What if, in your opinion, "they ain't got a shot"?
Don't you "owe" it to them to tell them so?
If they still refuse to listen to reason, wouldn't you just "blow them off", aka
"send them packing"?

No, you let them train anyway. Not everyone has what it takes to be a big name fighter. ANYONE can train to fight small time local level fights. I will definitely be honest with someone in regards to not selling them the dream of being a big name fighter, but if he / she still wants to train and fight locally, I am 100% behind them. It's not wasting my time and it's only making them better.


Hmmmm..... earlier I mentioned a posited Socialist State and its business-practices/relationships. IIRC, even fewer folks get access to any fight/MA-coaching, let alone the "somewhat forbidden" Bai-Si type relationships.


if you have a coach that can coach fighters, it shouldn't be a problem - perhaps that is the issue behind what you are referring to. Access to fight coaching isn't hard once you've found the coach.

[David Jamieson]

also, the depth of kungfu study into the more esoteric practices is often beyond only the fighting aspects.

I think the discipleship ceremony is particular to Chinese society historically speaking and even more so the underlying practice of confucian precepts.

There's nothing wrong with it and I agree that anything you don't feel comfortable imparting to someone is not theirs by right to demand from you even if they pay you for lessons. Besides, most stuff is taught as you become ready to learn it.

arithmatic for beginners, algebra for intermediate and calculus for advanced.

so many people think that it should be the other way around and even more think atht learning is done through osmosis. lol. It's not. It's freaking hard training and practice that gets you anywhere and yeah, sure you can fight in a short period of time if the instruction and training is correct, but zen takes a while no matter how you slice it, understanding all the other stuff with depth like structural mechanics beyond what you are shown and in an intrinsic way takes time, it takes a real long time if you don't have someone to show it to you. and so on.

anyway, people who want to carry on these traditions are fine by me and as far as I am concerned. the problems come when the whole heirarchical structure takes on more importance than what is originally the objective which is to be taught and to learn martial arts through practice.

when tea ceremonies and burning incense and bowing and showing subservience supercede that, considre the pebble snatched and it's time to go. But if doen appropriately and with correct context, then thet's different. when it's done as strictly a cosmetic thing and clearly it is not fully understood, then it is merely silly and it minimizes the value of the practice to those who do it in correct context. I can see why this would be a distasteful thing in that respect, but it's important that we each know that there is a lot we don't know or may ever know.

so, keep an open mind. (not so open your brain falls out though :p )

[bakxierboxer]

while hat is correct, it has zero to do with what is being talked about in this thread. Refusing to train someone is fine. However, if you accept them, you have accepted them. period.

The thread is about whether or not the concept and practice of Bai-Si is proper, particularly in this day/age/culture.
The above quote from you is a bit of a re-statement from your previous position in which you stated that "anyone desiring the bond should have it".
Now, it's apparently OK to refuse them that bond.....

Now you say........
But,once you've accepted them.... they must be totally accepted.
These things,and others, just don't work that way.
If you "qualify", you can be admitted to Harvard.
That does not guarantee you will graduate, nor does it guarantee that you will be accepted to any Harvard graduate school.

Training is not at all the same thing as teaching, let alone teaching at the graduate level.
I will not say that training, especially for competition, is insignificant.
In fact, those who were so inclined could engage in training for competition in ancient China, although the outcomes were often a good deal more final.


all things equal, the coach or master shouldn't be on a pedestal

Nobody ever said they should be on a pedestal.
At the same time, you can't just mosey up to one any-old-time, slap him on the back, call him mo'fo' or bro', sloppy-kiss him and expect him to like you for it and trot out for your delectation those arts/skills that he has spent his life acquiring.


When it's all said and done, any student he accepts - since he CHOSE to accept them - should be given equal treatment and receive the same level of training.

Sorry.
Anyone not making the grade can be flunked out of Harvard at any given level.
There are only so many seats available, and even the most PC-crazed academic is not going to waste that resource.


No, you let them train anyway.

Sounds nice.
In the best of all possible worlds......?
But, this is here and now and everyone can't always have every single thing they'd like to have.


Not everyone has what it takes to be a big name fighter.

A major admission on your part.


ANYONE can train to fight small time local level fights.

Possibly true.
Equally true is the fact that not every trainer, let alone Master, wants to spend their time and effort training fighters who will never be more than "half-good".


I will definitely be honest with someone in regards to not selling them the dream of being a big name fighter, but if he / she still wants to train and fight locally, I am 100% behind them. It's not wasting my time and it's only making them better.

You ARE 110% (if not more) entitled to spend your own time any way you please.
That does NOT entitle you to decide on the propriety of anyone else's methods.


if you have a coach that can coach fighters, it shouldn't be a problem

If you have one????


perhaps that is the issue behind what you are referring to. Access to fight coaching isn't hard once you've found the coach.

Jeepers!
Now it kinda looks like you're saying that not every coach will actually want to take on the task of training every Tom, D|ck, or Mary who walks through his door.... or am I reading that wrong?

Pete

[SevenStar]

Now you say........
But,once you've accepted them.... they must be totally accepted.
These things,and others, just don't work that way.
If you "qualify", you can be admitted to Harvard.
That does not guarantee you will graduate, nor does it guarantee that you will be accepted to any Harvard graduate school.

like I've said before, the current state of tma everyone talks about more than backs up what I am saying. by continuing such practices, the door is left wide open for fraud and watered down teachings. The harvard grad may not graduate - but as long as he is in class, he gets the same portion of the teacher's time that any other student gets. On the same token, all TMA students should get the same time. Some may never be any good, as you agree, not everyone has what it takes. those who don't never "graduate", but not because of lack of time with the teacher.


Training is not at all the same thing as teaching, let alone teaching at the graduate level.
I will not say that training, especially for competition, is insignificant.
In fact, those who were so inclined could engage in training for competition in ancient China, although the outcomes were often a good deal more final.

actually, I'd equate fight training - which is the training I've been referring to - to teaching on a grad level.


Nobody ever said they should be on a pedestal.

I may have misunderstood you. But,

...Starting to sound like you're equating a coach or Master to the lowest level "worker" at a house of prostitution....


seemed to say that you were putting the coach higher than others, in this case, a brothel worker.



At the same time, you can't just mosey up to one any-old-time, slap him on the back, call him mo'fo' or bro', sloppy-kiss him and expect him to like you for it and trot out for your delectation those arts/skills that he has spent his life acquiring.

I don't necessarily disagree with that.



Possibly true.
Equally true is the fact that not every trainer, let alone Master, wants to spend their time and effort training fighters who will never be more than "half-good".

Do you REALLY think that EVERY teacher around the world has classes full of students - or even a handful of 'disciples' - that are better than half good, or that could compete at high levels?



If you have one????

yes, if. Not all teachers have competed. If you have never competed, you have no business training anyone to compete, IMO.




Jeepers!
Now it kinda looks like you're saying that not every coach will actually want to take on the task of training every Tom, D|ck, or Mary who walks through his door.... or am I reading that wrong?


read it wrong.

[scholar]

The ceremony is a natural extension of a long term relationship. A teacher knows a student long enough to trust them (and vice versa), then they can offer the ceremony to acknowledge that trust. This is the way it was explained to me.

It saves time. I've only got so many years as an active teacher, and can transmit what I know to only so many people. To spoon feed a disrespectful thug, thief or an idiot everything I have to teach just because they show up to class is ludicrous, and takes time away from students who can learn from me. People love themselves immeasurably nowadays, and seemingly can't conceive that an instructor could find fault with their character, but that is the sifu's job, or at least it should be.

There is no secret about these expectations, every student who shows up gets the same explanation and gets shown the same face. Even Yang Luchan had his first Taijiquan class, no one is any better than anyone else on day one. It is what students do with that demonstration that determines, over the years, if they get asked to do the 3 bows and 9 knocks.

No one has a "right" to what I've learned. If you want to learn it, you'll have to prove to me that it'll go to a good place, a place that could have the ability to promote and transmit the art accurately and well in turn. Who says what is and isn't a "good place"? I do. That's just the way it is.

It isn't perfect, disciples (and sifus!) can always quit or go south. But it gives people a chance, and is a worthy enough concept that my colleagues and I are committed to preserving it.

[bakxierboxer]

like I've said before...

??? actually seem to be much like a broken record.... so, true!
We finally agree on something!


the current state of tma
everyone talks about
more than backs up
what I am saying
by continuing such practices
the door is left wide open
for fraud
watered down teachings
The harvard grad may not graduate
but as long as he is in class
he gets the same portion of the teacher's time
any other student gets
On the same token
all TMA students should get the same time
Some may never be any good
as you agree
not everyone has what it takes
those who don't never "graduate"
but not because of lack of time with the teacher.


I've broken your opinions (they do not rise to the level of "comments") down in the above manner, in order to show just how many ways you are wrong. I will not take the time to refute each and every one of them.


actually, I'd equate fight training - which is the training I've been referring to - to teaching on a grad level.


Equally an opinion/wrong.


I may have misunderstood you. But,

You got something right?
(OTOH, you're "not sure" about it)


seemed to say that you were putting the coach higher than others, in this case, a brothel worker.

You said that coaches had to "take on all comers". ("so to speak")


I don't necessarily disagree with that.

But, if you could, you'd find a way to do so?


Do you REALLY think that EVERY teacher around the world has classes full of students - or even a handful of 'disciples' - that are better than half good

No.
When they get (enough) "better than" "half good", they move up to the next class.


that could compete at high levels?

Not my concern.
Today, the word "competition" is used to denote a "spectator sport".
(some folks will consider that last term to be an "oxymoron" that's almost as expressive of the concept as that old classic the "giant shrimp")


yes, if. Not all teachers have competed. If you have never competed, you have no business training anyone to compete, IMO.

???
"Sauce for the goose..."?
I'm not aware of any coaches/trainers who've been World Champions in any particular ring-sport.

Furthermore, if you have no idea what constitutes a "tma", perhaps you have no business teaching anyone to do that, either.
That's also not an opinion, since legally it would constitute a fraud.... but, I take it that you've already spotted at least a few of those.


read it wrong.

To be completely even-handed, you have to consider that you may have written that wrong, too.

My final comment in this thread is to commend you to Scholar's post.

Pete

[Li Ma-Keh]

I think 'Bai-Si' has it's place in the kung-fu school,...my Si-Fu does it as a sort-of' rank-advancement or a 'Thank You' for being in the school for a long time, and for doing things to better the school, such as; cleaning-up around the building, promoting the school in a positive sense,..etc.', 'all' without being asked to do so. We do the traditional 'Tea ceremony' with bitter-tea. The tea is exchanged from teacher to student, we bow three-times, a reflextion of the student's training,rank and accomplishments are told,.. then we usually go to a Chinese restaurant afterwards to celebrate. I've been at Si-Fus' school for 13yrs., and only known it to happen twice. We don't exclude the other students, and we don't pledge a blood-oath,..lol' , we just show some respect and have dinner with a student who has hung' with us a long time, and is a good person. So, there are different degrees of 'how far' you take the status of 'Indoor-Student',...power-heads need not apply,..lol', but, all of that has to be decreed and controlled by the Si-Fu. Li Ma-Keh