Who originated the Tiger and Crane form?

[YongChun]

Hello,

I studied a village type of Hung style in the 1960's which doesn't have the Tiger and Crane form but have always enjoyed seeing this form. A good friend of mine knows it very well as he learned it when he was young from a good master in Hong Kong and has practiced it dilligently ever since.

On reading various websites I notice there seems to be some debate as to who originated this form. I wonder if the readers of this forum would agree with this history that I found yesterday?

http://www.quandoman.com/Article3.htm

Thank you,
Ray

[nyhakka]

I was told by Hung practioners that live in HK that it was indeed Wong Fei Hun g that developed the Tiger Crane set.

[TenTigers]

well, Tang Fong Hung-Ga has the ng long bot gwa gwun as well as the fu hok seung ying kuen, and we are not from Lam Sai-Wing line, so either that speaks for itself, or other Tang Fong people should step forwatd. Where is Jei li Sifu when ya need him, as well as Franc?

[Fu-Pau]

I would just like to state for the record that I don’t study Hung Ga… so I don’t particularly care!:D :) :D :cool:

[Laukarbo]

tiger and crane was modefied by wong fei hung...it already existed before him in a different version...then again evrything before wfh is word from the mouth sou never know...:D

[chasincharpchui]

tiger and crane was modefied by wong fei hung...it already existed before him in a different version...then again evrything before wfh is word from the mouth sou never know...:D

well there is still dispute bout the supposed photo they have of him

has anyone heard that it was wong kei ying that developed the tiger and crane form and wfh modified?

[David Jamieson]

who cares really? I mean, what difference does it make. It's there now and the points for posterity have been made.

bringing up such a topic and then illiciting contreversy over something that is so non-controversial and not going to affect anything is a bit silly.

the story is huang fei-hung put it there, that's enough and nobody here on this forum or anywhere knows it to be any different because there simply isn't amyone old enough to know for sure and documentation in a lot of kungfu styles is realy weak because of the traditional method of transmission.

any way, just pointing it out that it is a non-issue.

[Laukarbo]

well..the legend says that Hung Hei Goon developed the tiger and crane style..after he learned the crane style from his wife Fong Wing Chun..but he also could have learned it from Fong Sai Yuk...the truth we will probably never know...
better to look forward rather than backwards...:D

yeah the wfh pic has many rumors..maybe its one of his sons...again nobody can prove its him or not...;)

[David Jamieson]

It's a waste of time to argue about it. It's a non-point is all Im saying.

It's enough that it's an accepted part of the style, came from within and that's it.

Does anyone here argue about things their great granparents did?

This is one of the pet peeves i have with arguing the near meaningless minutia of what might have happened to someone who has been dead 3x longer than anyone arguing has been alive, wasn't personally known to anyone that is arguing and there is no documented evidence surrounding teh point being argued.

It is probably one of the top five failings of kungfu practitioners that they become absorbed into the folly of it.

either your **** is for real or it's not and no historical argument will make you any fitter or better with your kungfu, you can't lose weight and get girls because you can argue about long dead people, it won't make your back feel any better and those drills aren't gonna do themselves while one wastes their time ruminating on what is not wholly known.

so...there you have it. I
m out on this one as i've said ma thing.

[lkfmdc]

Fong Sai Yuk is, according to some, Fong Wing Chun's uncle...


well..the legend says that Hung Hei Goon developed the tiger and crane style..after he learned the crane style from his wife Fong Wing Chun..but he also could have learned it from Fong Sai Yuk...the truth we will probably never know...
better to look forward rather than backwards...:D

yeah the wfh pic has many rumors..maybe its one of his sons...again nobody can prove its him or not...;)

[YongChun]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry I didn't intend to start any controversy. I just was interested in what history was known and now I know that there isn't anything that can really be traced. The same is true for Wing Chun where a lot of stories were just made up. If the real history exists then of course it is nice to know. We do study history in school for some reason and we are better for it. I asked my friend who learned the Tiger and Crane form very well who his teacher in Hong Kong was and he said he couldn' t remember so that shows how important history is to him too. Of course for fighting, who cares. However those with an academic side to them like to delve into these things a bit for reasons that have nothing to do with fighting.

Here is a clip I found with one version of the Tiger and Crane form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lC8F_El8YM

In 1981 or 1982 I bought this version which I enjoyed to watch:
http://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Crane-Shaolin-Kung-Fu/dp/6305884145

In the 70's I enjoyed watching all the Run Run Shaw movies with Alexander FuSheng doing the Hung style. I thought the best was maybe Disciples of Shaolin which doesn't seem to be out yet on DVD.

Ray

[Laukarbo]

Fong Sai Yuk is, according to some, Fong Wing Chun's uncle...


thats true..i heard that too....:D

[ghostexorcist]

Has anyone on here ever heard of a Tiger-Crane expert named Tee Ley and his master Chee See Tsek? Do you know when Tee Ley lived? What are the chinese characters for his name? What are the characters for his master's name?

[TenTigers]

Fong Qinyang's father taught her Fukien Bak Hok. She lived in Wing Chun county in Fukien Province, hence, she may actually have been known as Fong Wing Chun.
It actually makes a heckuva lot more sense than the story.

[mok]

Fong Sai Yuk is, according to some, Fong Wing Chun's uncle...

According to Yuen Kik Kay, Fong Say Yuk was the originator of another Hung Kuen style - "five-pattern hung kuen", as per the into to the 2 "five-pattern Hung kuen" books published by Dr. Leung Ting.

That hung kuen looks nothing like canton Hung Ga kuen (it's not even close) but it is a 5 animal style (same animals), and it does include crane.

[lkfmdc]

Fong Qinyang's father taught her Fukien Bak Hok. She lived in Wing Chun county in Fukien Province, hence, she may actually have been known as Fong Wing Chun.
It actually makes a heckuva lot more sense than the story.

What's so hard to believe? That she was Fong Sai Yuk's niece? You don't think mo lum is a small circle? Dear lord Tigers, look at US!!!!!! You, me, Eric Hargrove, Mike Parrella, Chris Jurak, Peter Pena, Ty Nunez, Steve Ventura, etc etc... all inter related and knowing eachother for years....

I think a lot of systems are just branches of the same tree... Fukien White Crane, Wu Mei, that hung kuen in that book... look at how much stuff changes in our life times, guys from the same teacher....


Now, I think YIM wing chun is actually a creation on the part of Yip Man, based upon FONG wing chun... but that's another thread

[lkfmdc]

oh, and by the way, Fong Sai Yuk's mom was MIU choi fa... MIU Ga (Miao Jia) looks A LOT like those "Fukien" systems

[mok]

oh, and by the way, Fong Sai Yuk's mom was MIU choi fa... MIU Ga (Miao Jia) looks A LOT like those "Fukien" systems

lkfmdc: I'm curious - what kind of evidence do you have for these theories?

I don't believe any of it. There's only a few hundred surnames in all of china, and ~1.3 billion people. So Fong's are pretty darn common name in fukkien or any other regions.

Also, from what I have seen (according to Yuen Kik Kai), Fong Sai Yuk was not a crane stylist, but a practitionner of what would be known as "5-pattern hung kuen".

Now this may be a case of Yuen Kik Kai mis-attributing his art to someone famous, but I have never seen a single crane style mentionning Fong Sai Yuk in their lineage before. Why? Plus there's an important time-difference between Fong Sai-Yuk and WFH (though the uncle theory could possibly account for that...).


peace,

mok

[lkfmdc]

YOu do realize that Miao (Miu) is so rare a name that it is NOT in the "book of 100 names"? While "Chen" or "Li" may be a dime a dozen and there is no reliable relationship between one chen and another.... Miao is a very different case. Anyone with the name "Miao" is related and usually pretty closely....

Like I said before, the Miao Family is alive and well living in Zhou Shan island. They still practice the family method and they trace it right back to Miu Choih Fa, Miu Tin and the gang :D

Like I said, I've studied Miao Jia Quan, and for a "northern" system it is a lot like Fukien and short hand methods

You don't have to believe it, over here in the US it is still a free country.