Yang Jwing-Ming's kung fu retreat? [Archive]

IronFist

11-15-2006, 06:11 PM

I got this in an email today. There were some pics, but I'm not going to link to them. I'm not gonna format it, either, cuz it was really long.

But there's a link at the bottom of the email for more info (http://www.ymaa-retreatcenter.org/donations).

You think someone really wants to live there for 10 years?

Hello,

Welcome to the first-ever YMAA Retreat Center newsletter.

The Retreat Center is a new nonprofit facility currently under construction on 240 acres in Humbolt County, Northern CA. When completed, world renown Chinese martial arts master Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming will bring 15 exceptional students to live and train with him there for 10 years.

(By using the "Forward to a Friend' link at the bottom of this email, please forward this message to your family, friends, and anyone you feel might be interested in this project. Thank you.)

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FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS

The deeper aspects of the Chinese arts are rarely taught in modern times. Even in China, due to the suppression of the arts during the Cultural Revolution, this higher knowledge is all but lost. Dr. Yang is one of the few remaining Masters who wishes to share his knowledge fully and instruct the techniques, morality, healing, and spirituality of the older generation. He is willing, now at age 60, to spend the next ten years of his life to ensure that the light of this ancient wisdom grow brighter in the world for future generations. Now that the benefits of Tai Chi and meditation are being studied by medical science, it is vital that we create a solid bridge between the East and West, to help bring society as a whole to a higher level of wellbeing, awareness and peace.

The size of this nonprofit project prevents Dr. Yang from being able to do it alone, though great progress has been made. A Silver, Gold, and Platinum Donor program has been created to make it simple for you to get involved in this unprecedented project. Some benefits for Donors include an invitation to the Center for the annual Supporter's Festival, faculty 'chair' positions, and the naming of training facilities after major Donors.
PROGRESS

Dr. Yang began this project in 2004. The 10-year training program is scheduled to begin in the Fall of 2008. Here is a summary of the progress made thus far:

* After searching the entire United States, Dr. Yang selected this property in Northern CA.
* In 2004, Dr. Yang formed the nonprofit Retreat Center in CA.
* The Center is recognized by CA as an Educational Facility.
* A road was built into the property, and covered with gravel. (4-wheel drive is required.)
* A solar array has been built to provide all energy. The property is 'off the grid' and completely self-sustaining.
* A well has been dug and the water pumping system is installed.
* A cabin and larger house have been built on the top of this 'small mountain'.
* Dr. Yang & volunteer students travel to the property twice a year to continue preparations.
* The program was announced and applications from interested students are now being reviewed. Applications will be accepted until mid-2007.
* Inside Kung Fu magazine will have a cover story on Dr. Yang and the Center in the May issue. Please watch for it in mid-March '07.

More info
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GOALS

* Dr. Yang will teach the next generation of Masters. He will transmit his entire knowledge to the students selected.

* The expanded curriculum includes Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Qigong, weapons, horseback riding, massage, meditation, Chinese language, cooking, culture, and philosophy.

* Dr. Yang intends to raise the standard of Chinese martial arts training in the world.

* Students will demonstrate the highest levels of skill, morality, humility, and spirituality.

* The Center will communicate the true depth of Chinese Healing and Martial Arts.

* The program is estimated to cost $500,000 per year. Our fundraising goal to 'break even' is $5 M.

More info
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Image"There are four main purposes of establishing this nonprofit Retreat Center.

1. To preserve Chinese arts to the same level as 50 years ago. From my experience of more than 35 years of teaching, I deeply realize that in order to preserve the Chinese martial to the profound level as in ancient times, a student must live in an environment similar to that in ancient times. Traditionally, a student would live together with a master for 10 years of training in a single martial art style. Back then, there was no TV, no computer, no external distraction, no social pressure, and no luxurious lifestyles like today. Daily life was simple, and the heart of training was sincere. A student was thus able to concentrate his/her whole mind in the training. Therefore, my plan is to take 15 students to this remote mountain environment for 10 years of training, nine months per year. With good discipline and instruction, I sincerely believe that I can raise the quality and depth of the arts to a standard as high as in ancient times.

2. To prove that today's youth is able to develop good self-discipline through traditional Chinese martial arts training as they were in ancient times. In this school, a student must learn and perform a high standard of self-discipline in order to persevere and succeed throughout the difficult training.

3. To raise awareness of martial morality. Due to widely-spread commercialized martial arts, such as Hollywood Kung Fu movies and culture, martial morality has been ignored in modern times. In this Retreat Center, a student must aim to achieve a high level of martial morality, including:

Morality of Deed: humility, respect, righteousness, trust, and loyalty.
Morality of Mind: will, endurance, perseverance, patience, and courage.

4. To plant the seed for future Chinese martial arts development. It is the intention with this camp to establish a model which demonstrates the structure and methods for preserving the Chinese Arts, and for planting the seed for future generations to continue this long-term development of the arts on the correct path. It is my hope that this type of training method will continue to spread and become popular in youth training centers around the world.

Thank you,
Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming"

SPJ

11-15-2006, 07:19 PM

It is a question of now and then (before) or 21st century vs 13 to 15th century etc.

the ideas are good.

but some practical issues:

1. physical attributes. we may get better results when start younger. But that would mean minors or need parents' consent and also needing schooling up to high school. We are peaking around 20 year of age. That is why all the olympic gamers starting very young and winning golds around 20 year old or younger.

2. DNA issues meaning some people are physically built for certain styles or more sudden or bursting powers such as jumping etc. Some people may do certain styles or moves well and some are physically not possible to do them. You may not ask a bunny to swim like a frog or a frog to hop like a bunny. You may spend all your life time to do it. You just could not.

3. motivations come from self-drives. financial penalties may not work or incentives strong enough. it is an issue of great interests and dedications to MA practices. I know people would pay to get out of things and not getting into.

4. balance of things in life. MA practices every day and nothing else. This is not a good balance. Some times a break here and there is absolutely necessary. We may want to be working like a machine and yet we are not. And even machine or computers need downtime for services or maintenace etc.

5. the final thing is talent. some people just pick up stuff quickly and some people just could not make it no matter what.

10 years enough time? for some is too long and for some is not enough.

there are many good Wushu programs in China for youngsters but not for "older" folks. something to think about?

SanHeChuan

11-15-2006, 08:00 PM

were do I sign up? I ain't got nothing planed for the next 10 years!:p

If you donnate you should get to go an train with them for awhile. :mad:

Kristoffer

11-16-2006, 05:14 AM

very interesting. I wonder if there's really that many volenteers for this..

TaiChiBob

11-16-2006, 05:25 AM

Greetings..

I hosted last year's Central Florida Workshop with Dr. Yang, and will do so again this coming January.. we have talked at length about his hopes for the school, and i admire his focus and intent.. He is looking for young dedicated students willing to give up 10 years of youth for the most intense training and an outstanding business opportunity.. for those students that complete the ten years of training there will be financial assistance for the purpose of opening a full-time Martial Arts school.. He will audition perspective students from all over the world and select the most likely to succede, there will be try-outs and tests.. Dr.Yang is focused and sincere.. i think this represents an outstanding challenge to the MA community, to reconsider the direction and training we currently see as the "norm"..

Be well..

Shaolindynasty

11-16-2006, 09:39 AM

Interesting idea and it seems real cool but....... Yang didn't train like this did he?

YouKnowWho

11-16-2006, 09:57 AM

Interesting idea and it seems real cool but....... Yang didn't train like this did he?
During the summer time (7/1 - 10/1), Yang would train 6 hours a day (from 12 noon to 6 pm) and 6 days a week (Mon - Sat). The training is out door and won't stop even under heavy raining. That's pretty serious training in today's standard. When he taught a CMA club in one university in Taiwan, he also formed a "fighting club" and forced all his students to spar. He is a serious combat guy all his life and I do hope he can succeed in his current project.

TaiChiBob

11-16-2006, 11:18 AM

Greetings..

I asked Dr. Yang if this was how he trained.. he said he wouldn't ask anyone to do something he hadn't done or couldn't do himself.. as was said, he is not only serious but capable.. the issue will be whether his students can handle the training..

Be well..

SPJ

11-16-2006, 06:56 PM

It is absolutely admirable and very generous on the part of the teacher.

the idea or romanticism of reclusion may not be necessary.

10 years of dedicated teaching and training with only 15. seemed not fair to the rest of the crowd/students.

it may be better to have a school or programs for more people than just 15.

1. such as 2 years for instructors (junior college)

2. 4 years for teachers. (undergraduate)

3. 2 years for master. (graduate schools)

4. 2 years more for PhD or doctor of MA.

not just training and practicing but also research, thesis paper, new classics or new moves or new routines etc.

--

these are also Wushu programs in China from high school up to college. Everything is still evolving.

--

coaching with multiple styles with multiple teachers may be offered at master and PhD levels.

--

dun mind me, just some thoughts.

--

:D

TaiChiBob

11-17-2006, 05:38 AM

Greetings..

SPJ: Dr. Yang is interested in quality and he will be the hands-on instructor.. the relatively small number of students assures that each will receive very detailed instruction and be held to a tightly controlled standard.. he expects that from the 15 selected that it is likely only 10 will complete the training, but.. those 10 will, hopefully, follow a similar path and perhaps each of them will produce 10 more.. so that in the next 20-30 years there could be a hunderd highly trained well disciplined teachers, with many qualified instructors under their supervision.. Dr. Yang has a very structured program, consistent and demanding.. He allows a student to test for any certification only twice, it forces the student to be confident and train diligently.. and, the tester doesn't waste time with endless repeats of half-hearted students, or pick their pockets for test after test.. Dr. Yang has a deep and sincere interest in TCMA, particularly from a comprehensive combat perspective.. and, he expects integrity!

One of the benefits i see from this focused approach, is that it can set a standard for preserving TCMA as a viable fighting art as well as preserving a rich cultural heritage.. It takes courage to put yourself out there like this, Dr. Yang will surely be scrutinized by the MA community.. and, my money says he will rise to the challenge.. since i have developed a relationship with Dr. Yang, i have also developed a deep respect for his knowledge and capabilities.. his goal is to improve TCMA, if he were interested in fame or fortune from this venture he would have invited many more students..

Be well..

SPJ

11-17-2006, 07:41 AM

TCB;

Thanks for the clarifications and info.

I only have great admirations for him. I was posting as a general theme/discussion.

:D

Ford Prefect

11-17-2006, 08:24 AM

I know Yang rather well, and he is a good guy and good instructor. I can't help but see this as a money making venture. Roughly the way this works is that the prospective student pays tuition for the first X amount of years. I believe it is 5 years. This tuition payment decreases to nothing as time goes by, but initially I think it is as much at $35,000 for the first year. The total is in the vacinity of $100,000. If you complete all 10 years, the money is returned to you in full as a down payment to start you own school. I think that's great.

The thing is if you are forced to leave the program, you forfeit all your tuition. He is only taking young students. I believe the cut off is 21 years old if not younger. Now how many young guys do you know that are training hard at that age and truly believe it is their life quest only to have it fall out of favor for various reasons in the following years? I know quite a few. Nine months is a hefty commitment for the 10 years. They'll be unable to make much money at all, start relationships, start families, etc. I can see many being pulled away by such things, so the "foundation" will keep the tuition. IIRC, the foundation is paying Yang a very nice salary for this and Yang personally owns this land, so the foundation is paying Yang rent in order to use it... Perhaps I'm just a pessimist. Just seems a bit like a racket to me.

SPJ

11-17-2006, 08:58 AM

Yes. the 15 students may not stick around long enough.

But the main thing is that the "thoughts" or the ideas of 10 years of dedicated training and practicing without any other "worldly" distractions.

This alone deserves a lot of admirations and respect.

:)

shuaichiao

11-17-2006, 09:22 AM

I don't know much about tuition or anything else for this project. What I do know is that when he first came out with the idea he said he wanted to do it because people in his school were to distracted. The didn't train with all their heart and many would train for a short time and then disappear. He wanted to take a group of dedicated students away from all distractions and teach them deep level kung fu.

The problem with this is that if he had spent more time in his own school teaching class himself instead of running around the world teaching seminars to be famous and make money and leaving his school run by students who all taught the same forms,drills, and techniques different from each other and him, he could have had plenty of long term dedicated students. I spent a few years in his school and I respect his knowledge and abilities but he definitely views kung fu as a money making venture.

If the tuition thing is right I can partially understand it. He did something similar with his sparring class. You paid x amount up front for each session. you earned back $10 for each class you attended but forfeited $20 for each class you missed. If you missed x amount you lost the money and got kicked out of the sparring class. it was done mostly to entice dedication and most people completed each session without losing much of their money. On a large project like this I can see him doing something similar with a more substantial input. If somebody drops out after two or three years then he's wasted a spot in his group and wasted his time teaching that individual. So there is nothing wrong with ensuring a lot of dedication. The problem is if the amounts listed above are correct then the only people who can afford it are the rich and if they need to be under 21 then that leaves a bunch of spoiled rich kids. The people who have the ability to do this may not care about losing that money when they get tired of this. Also Dr. Yang has always emphasized the fighting aspects of his martial arts and who really believes that spoiled rich kids are going to make the best fighters or instructors of fighting arts? He would do much better dedicating himself to his own school and his students there.

B-Rad

11-17-2006, 09:34 AM

Yes, but to me it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed. Nice idea, but I'm skeptical. It'll be interesting to see how these people turn out though.

SanHeChuan

11-17-2006, 10:21 AM

He should make a reality show out of it or at least a documentary.

The tuition is S90,000 over 5 years, so you're family doesn't have to be that rich. But at 17-22 your family has to really support your kung fu aspirations. And 10 years is alot longer commitment than college. Doctors don't spend that much time in school. Plus being totally cut off from the world for 9 months at a time,... is he making kung fu masters or uni-bombers?

I've been toying around with the idea of a kung fu university type thing. Not that I'm in any position to pull it off. At the most basic level it would be a live-in gym, where you train for 8+ hours a day. Kind of like how they do with gymnasts. Recruit a some experienced instructors, for variety. But I'd put mine near a populated area. Some distractions are good.

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has a really admirable goal though, and I'd like to see more kung fu men try less ambitious projects.

TaiChiBob

11-17-2006, 11:52 AM

Greetings..

As predictable as the seasons.. the critics appear.. Dr. Yang is putting his money and his reputation out there for the world to scrutinize.. few of us can say the same..

it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed.How do we "know" what existed?.. most of the stories and legends are embellished camp-fire stories anyhow.. at least Dr. Yang is willing to forge a new chapter in the TCMA storybook..
As for the money issue, Ford.. the student will be carefully screened, informed in detail as to the terms and conditions and no one will force them to accept the offer..

Also Dr. Yang has always emphasized the fighting aspects of his martial arts and who really believes that spoiled rich kids are going to make the best fighters or instructors of fighting arts? He would do much better dedicating himself to his own school and his students there.That's the point, with proper and dedicated training even a "spoiled rich kid" can be transformed into a martial artist.. and, just for the record, being wealthy does not exclude someone from having the dedication and drive necessary to complete the training.. that notion is prejudiced or envious..

I like the idea of a documentary, it could serve as a model or a warning.. depending on the outcome.. As for the practicallity of Dr. Yang's vision, the difference between Shaolin trained competitors and the general US trained competitor is observably in favor of Shaolin.. lending some credence to that type of training.. Dr. Yang's training will rival the Shaolin training regimen and, i am patient enough to wait and see how it plays out.. i am not interested in converting others to my beliefs about something, i am interested in refining those beliefs, or.. adjusting my beliefs based on new or revised evidence..

Be well..

Shaolindynasty

11-17-2006, 12:31 PM

Yes, but to me it seems that his whole goal is based on a romantic idea of kungfu that never really existed.

Kinda what I was getting at.

Dr. Yang didn't ignore the "distractions" of going to college getting a degree and building a life.

I think what he's doing sounds cool but I don't think it's gonna work for anyone involved.

shuaichiao

11-17-2006, 12:40 PM

That's the point, with proper and dedicated training even a "spoiled rich kid" can be transformed into a martial artist.. and, just for the record, being wealthy does not exclude someone from having the dedication and drive necessary to complete the training.. that notion is prejudiced or envious....

Actually it's neither. If he truly wants to pass down the highest quality martial arts to people who will continue to teach it then he should find a way to pass it down to the best possible students not the best students who happen to have a hundred grand lying around. I should point out that when Dr. Yang learned he did so while he both worked and went to school so if he feels he's qualified to teach people to such a level then why does he feel like that's the only way somebody else can achieve that level?

Ford Prefect

11-17-2006, 12:40 PM

As predictable as the seasons.. the critics appear.. Dr. Yang is putting his money and his reputation out there for the world to scrutinize.. few of us can say the same..

It's called having an opinion, Bob. People are allowed to have opinions based on observations. From the sounds of it, SC has a good deal of personal experience with Dr Yang as do I. I even prefaced my post by saying he was a good guy and instructor, so that people would understand it is my opinion of this undertaking and not him Yang himself.

As for the money issue, Ford.. the student will be carefully screened, informed in detail as to the terms and conditions and no one will force them to accept the offer..

I am aware of all the details of the retreat. My point is that college applicants are screened as well. Many people don't end up having a career for what they went to college for and many more switched majors while in school. Most people change their beliefs and priorities from when they were 18 years old.

That is really only an ancillary issue. Since this center is attempting to garner tax exempt status, their finances are open to the public and they post them on their website (http://www.ymaa-retreatcenter.org). The proposed yearly salary Yang is going to pay for himself is $160,000/year for those 10 years ($1,600,000 total). Likewise he personally owns these facilities, so he (the "retreat center") is renting them from himself at a clip of $13,600/month or a total of $1,224,000. That right there is $2,824,000 he is personally making off this.

Now also count that this Retreat Center is paying out $349,000 for "recruiting costs" and that since he is running this as a non-profit, he will rely on donations for the bulk of these operating costs. In the end, he makes out with the land, facilities, and at the very least $2,824,000 in salary and rent through the Research Institute. That's not bad for running a non-profit for 10 years.

($200,000 is being financed by Yang to build... I don't think Yang will have a problem paying them and the land off with his "rent" from the Research Center.)

Like I said, I could just be a pessimist. This just seems like a racket to me.

TaiChiBob

11-17-2006, 01:52 PM

Greetings..

Quote removed at the poster's request, the original post deletedThe "deposit" is an incentive to complete the training, moreso if it is returned.. AND, Dr. Yang is considering "scholarship assistance" for students in certain circumstances..

Likewise he personally owns these facilities, so he (the "retreat center") is renting them from himself at a clip of $13,600/month or a total of $1,224,000.Agreed, and do you suppose that he didn't invest his own money in this venture.. is he not entitled to recoup some of that investment..

Dr. Yang learned he did so while he both worked and went to school so if he feels he's qualified to teach people to such a level then why does he feel like that's the only way somebody else can achieve that level?He states that he wants to improve on his original situation. he recognizes that the experience and knowledge gained over his life in TCMA is too comprehensive to doled out to large numbers of students attending classes on "their schedule".. he, and i am speculating here, has a goal that differs from the goals that most people wish him to have.. i think he is 61 years old, at completion of the training he will be in his 70s.. he wants to produce highly trained, competent, and business-wise teachers.. people that can move his art into the future.. it's HIS vision.. He intends to pick young, intelligent, talented, and dedicated students.. from those that succede, they will be young enough to open the art up to a much wider group, i see the wisdom in his process.. even though i wish i were in a position to take advantage of such a generous offer.. i can't think of any Universities that give you your tuition back to start a business..

Again, i admire his vision and dedication.. AND, if he can make money while doing it, what's the rub? Speaking of "romantic" notions, free kung fu training for the dedicated desciple would fall into that category.. If Dr. Yang can pull this off, i think it can only help the Art.. and, i am for anything that helps CMA..

Be well..

YouKnowWho

11-17-2006, 02:21 PM

Sounds fun to have 15 partners for your own training for the next 10 years.

Bang, Bang, Bang, and Bang. 4 down and 11 more to go.

Ford Prefect

11-17-2006, 02:23 PM

Agreed, and do you suppose that he didn't invest his own money in this venture.. is he not entitled to recoup some of that investment....

He has every right of course, but I will call a spade a spade. I won't chaulk it up to an admirable or noble deed, when the guy is making out like a bandit. He is:

1) Making $1,600,000 in "salary" through this 10 years.

2) Making another $1,224,000 in renting these facilities to his non-profit over the next 10 years.

3) All expenses for this time will be paid via donations.

4) At the end of these 10 years he will have $2,824,000 CASH which is more than enough to pay off the land and facilities financing. He will have a boat load of money AND he will have a fully paid for, fully equipped training facility (non profit is spending $15,000/year on equipment) in the moutains which will allow him to scrap the non-profit since he personally owns the land and facilities. He can then turn the whole thing into a commercial venture after making out like a bandit running a "non-profit" one. Basically he has people donate money to him so he can pay off his mortgage, make millions, and then turn the product of the donations into even more commercial gain.

I have a tough time swallowing what is so admirable and noble about that. I admire him for his business sense. I won't make it seem like he is gracing the world with this gift out of some noble sense of duty when it is set-up like that.

*This is not speaking for his amiability or his instruction. Both are great.

TaiChiBob

11-17-2006, 02:35 PM

Greetings..

Suppose, for the sake of arguement, that Dr. Yang has, as his first priority, a noble cause.. and, as a by-product of that, a way to make money.. i find no fault for making the money over a 10 year period considering he will be in his 70s when the plan matures.. i applaud his "business-fu".. calling "a spade a spade" is a comparison to your personal perspective and not of necessity any link to the reality of Dr. Yang's personal goals..

Be Well..

Ford Prefect

11-17-2006, 03:02 PM

If the cause were noble, then why not buy the land and facilities as the non-profit research center? This would ensure that the research center could function well into the future as perscribed by him well past the time he passes.

Instead he is using donations to pay for his personal facilities, his personal land, and millions in cash of these donations go straight into his own pocket. He could privatise the whole thing in 10 years, make it into a fully commercial kung fu camp charging whatever tuition he can, and turn the rest of it into his private estate. The non-profit basically has no control over anything.

calling "a spade a spade" is a comparison to your personal perspective and not of necessity any link to the reality of Dr. Yang's personal goals..

Right. Yet again, it's called an opinion, Bob. Just like what you're typing.

SanHeChuan

11-17-2006, 03:11 PM

Well he's not making his money off the students so it's not like he's fleecing them, so I don't really care how much he makes. He's worked the system with out taking advantage of his student, so good on him.

But there's no way in H@ll I'd give him a donation, are you kidding me! :rolleyes:

cjurakpt

11-17-2006, 09:51 PM

the impetus for his undertaking notwithstanding, there are a few things that strike me as potential snags in the whole scheme:

1) how many 17 to 22 year olds have $30,000 to plop down for a year of training? how many have $90,000 to plop down over 5 years? how many have parents / benefactors waiting to do the same? not many; I really wonder where this $ is going to come from? as for getting it back, does that include the interest earned from the high-yield long-term CD account or bonds in which it will likely be deposited?

2) 10 years is a long time: I find it a bit unlikely that the majority, if any, of the 15 will make it through: how many of us new "for sure" what we were going to do with our lives at that age, and then turned around a few years later and realized we were doing something completely different? and what are the criteria for dismissal? there had better be a pretty well-defined mechanism for someone to get the boot, including an independent review / appeals process; also, what if you get injured and can't continue? what if he decides to bag it half-way through? or gets sick or worse? a LOT can happen in 10 years, and putting all ones eggs in this basket is pretty risky from a life-decision perspective; personally, I'd have taken people in their 30's - much more likely to know for sure what they want to do, and also a lot more maturity, finished sowing wild oats and all that - a lot less potential interpersonal crap coming along with them, which brings me to...

3) I hope Dr. Yang has some training in interpersonal / group psychology, because when the sh1t hits the fan in terms of the intragroup dynamics somewhere around the 6th month (never mind year) when people start to go a little stir from being up in the woods and doing a lot of heavy breathing, hoo-boy...also, will it be co-ed? 'cause if that's the case, it's gnona get even uglier, really quickly when the hormones start raging and the jealousy gets going (I mean, if they're up there for 9 months a year, doesn't he realize they're going to be shpoinking each other sooner or later?)

4) as for the argument on the site that $9,000/year is much less than most colleges, college is only 4 years, and when you get out of college, although it costs a bit (not much) more, you at least end up with a degree that the rest of the world cares about in terms of a credential...if you spend $90,000,and spend 10 years or so training that leads to an MD or law career - a bit more potential return on your investment I'd say...

5) right now, it sounds like he's on probation as a non-profit, which means if you donate and take the deduction, if it doesn't get approved, you will get your money back (at least in theory), and you'll have to then pay the tax on it subsequently...

it's a nice idea on several levels - but I think that the all or nothing approach sets everyone up for failure a lot more so than it need be; it sounds like he's trying to cement in a group, but the reality is that life is full of changes: it would make a lot more sense to have a residential training of 3 years max, finish that and then see if anyone want another term: also to have people coming in for shorter term study - oherwise, it's like trying to force an ethic onto people that doesn't really apply in this day and age: I know that no one is making anyone do this, obviously, but I think he could be more skillful in his application of this - it's great to havea a vision and a dream, but maybe to be a bt more realistic in achieving it...

I wish him luck though - I hope he knows what he's in for...

YouKnowWho

11-17-2006, 10:33 PM

1) how many 17 to 22 year olds have $30,000 to plop down for a year of training?
That's absolute right. Those who have money are not interest in CMA. Those who are interest in CMA don't have money. If you want to lead a CMA team and compete in foreign countries then you usually end with a group of rich boys. This is the problem in CMA teaching. It's easy to teach CMA for fun but difficult to make a living out of it (not even to mention the medical insurance, stock option, 401 K, and pension plan).

SPJ

11-18-2006, 02:33 AM

I was talking to a couple of friends about the idea.

Here are some summaries.

2 years programs are more "do-able"

grouped into 5 groups.

A. Shaolin fist.

B. Shuai Jiao (general/Tai Chi)

C. Qin Na (general, Shaolin 36 Zhua, Tai Chi etc)

D. Push hands.

E. White Crane.

2 years basic, 2 years intermediate, 2 years advanced. at the end of each period, there will tests or certifications. the student may pick one group to major. leave Chinese language to language schools, leave Chinese medicine to Chinese medicine school.

the tuition comes from donation of each school. the student upon finishing going back to original school to teach for 2 years to pay back the tuition.

the thing is that there are so many stuffs, some would take a life time to "complete" or learn just a few.

--

:D

Royal Dragon

11-18-2006, 11:21 AM

First off, if he were really interested in promoteing TCMA, he'd be looking for 18 desciples, not just 15......

Second, if I were him, I would make sure he also offered degrees in Sports medicin, and physical therapy, that way his desciples end up with a mainstream degree in a modern, and common career field, in addition to thier Kung Fu.

Third, I would not demand 10 years up front. Like stated above, I would break it down, only I would go with 3 year courses. The first would be Long Fist, and obtaining the 2 year physical therapists (assistant) degree offered in most colleges. The second 3 years, would move on to more depth in his martial arts methods, and teach beginning accupressure, and accupunture, and finally the most advanced stuff would be taught in the last 3 year course.

If he does it this way, those interested in getting into the sports medicine field as a career will likely do it because they would accompish thier career goals, as well as thier Kung Fu goals.

If he only does this 9 months out of the year, it will be like going to a 9 year college, during the winter session, and be off for the summer, which is what college guys are used to doing anyway.

Lastly, as an after thought here, If I were him, I would not limit it to just 15, or 18, but just offere the series of Three, 3 year courses to anyone who can get a student loan.

If he does this, he will be succsessful, because his students will be getting actual practical modern career skills as well. They could even persue this instead of a regular college education.

Water Dragon

11-18-2006, 11:37 AM

I dunno, doesn't seem feasible to me in modern society. It's a noble idea though.

Royal Dragon

11-18-2006, 11:49 AM

He would need to be offering a degree in something modern, besides just Kung Fu.

If he taught 4 hours of Kung Fu, plus 2 hours a day of a regular college, that ar Modern career minded courses, I think he could do it. My guess is those who are intrested in careers in Sports medicine, and injury rehab would be his most likely canidates, as Kung Fu would be an extension of thier current intrests, and career goals anyway.

Faruq

11-18-2006, 04:29 PM

If Kwong Man Fong or Chin Suey Dor was the one doing this, I'd be there in a minute!

YouKnowWho

11-18-2006, 06:04 PM

He would need to be offering a degree in something modern, besides just Kung Fu.
Brendon Lai had tried to offer CMA BA, MA, and PhD degrees through The Univ. of Hawaii and it didn't work very well. I do believe short term goal such as 2 - 3 years is much easer to achieve than 10 years long term goal. If you are more interest in "combat" than "art" then 2 to 3 years will be a good section.

Faruq

11-19-2006, 09:45 AM

Can you imagine what the product would be if it was Chan Sau Chung doing this? It'd be amazing! Dr Yang really seems to have a noble heart to even want to do something like this. No one else'd try to do it, that's for sure. He's like Bai Si'ing 10 people at once! Has anything like this happened since the 1640's? Unfortunately, I wonder if anyone's true character can be assessed via a selection process they propose. I wonder if he shouldn't start with 100 people, from which he could whitle it down to 10 over the course of a few years?

SPJ

11-19-2006, 09:57 AM

overall, 10 years are too long. each student may progress differently. it is only an arbitray time at best.

some may move fast and then a block or a hurdle needing more time to advance.

some may be sick or injured for a while.

some may have family matters or personal things and have to have leave of abscence.

many things may happen in 10 years.

--

the idea of 10 years is actually from the saying "10 years of hard study near the cold window, and one day you pass the exam. You may have the name and an official position (Gong Ming)". it is only a figurative speach 10 years vs a day. for most people it took more than 10 years.

--

the idea of Kung Fu training is actually: you go to the mountains and practice since you are a youngen, when you grow up or 10 summers and 10 winters later, you come out and avenge your family or teacher of the opponents". Again 10 years are figurative speech. The main thing is that when you are mature or grown up. it is very difficult to "mold" or increase your physical ability. You have to start young. period.

--

:D

Faruq

11-19-2006, 10:08 AM

I've heard that before, but I've also heard that some styles, like the ones supposedly spread to the populace by the survivors of the burning in the 1640's, were designed to be completed in 5. So many legends, which one to choose? Maybe it depends on the style.

TaiChiBob

11-19-2006, 12:53 PM

Greetings..

We all have opinions (me too, Ford).. but, Dr. Yang is putting his opinions, his beliefs, his experience and his business savvy on the table, while we talk Dr. Yang is "doing".. 10 years is quite a long time, true.. so, anyone willing to make that committment passes the first test, willingness..

I have sat with Dr. Yang at dinner and listened to the passion in his voice for this venture.. he seems genuinely sincere, and has a developed curriculum.. i will be interested to see the results.. and, that's the only way we'll "know" how it works out.. patience.. and, a willingness to believe it's at least possible..

Be well..

Samurai Jack

11-20-2006, 04:25 AM

I want to start off by saying that I highly respect Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. His books have raised the bar for CMA, in fact all martial arts books worldwide. I have several friends who have trained with him, and everyone has had nothing but good things to say about his skill, his integrity, and the caliber of students he produces.

All of that said, I personally have serious concerns about any group with such a charismatic leader choosing to isolate itself for TEN YEARS. It is doubly frightening to know that the members of this proposed community will be very young impressionable people. There will undoubtedly be tremendous peer pressure involved in the venture; it isn't possible to avoid. There will be conflicts. There will be tremendous turmoil as the group dynamics will inevitably be at odds with each student's basic (and still developing) sense of individuality.

You have all of the makings of a cult here, and the part that worries me most is that it appears that these dynamics are being put together deliberately. I have personally worked in mental health for ten years now. I have also lived for a time as a member of a Zen monastery. I know groupthink and cult behavior backwards and forwards. The level of commitment being demanded here makes it very clear that this will not be a democratic organization. Yang will be in charge of everything. The students will be completely dependant on him for food, shelter, and the community for companionship and support. This is a dangerous ****tail because the leader of this organization will not have been raised in a monastic environment himself for an appreciable length of time. It's an important distinction, because it seems very clear to me that there is a lack of experience here. Nobody seems to know what he or she is getting in to, least of all the leader.

Some aspects of Cult behavior that could be pitfalls of this program as it has been laid out here:

1. The Guru is always right.

In this venture Dr. Yang appears to be the one running the whole show. He will be selecting the students, he will own the property that they live on, he will be teaching them personally, he will be scheduling their lives, and he will presumably be feeding them. Furthermore he’s a recognized kungfu master who will be looked up to and respected as an authority by all of his young protégés. It is highly unlikely that any of them will have the strength of will to do anything to oppose Dr. Yang’s will, should things get out of hand.

2. You are always wrong.

The young people being selected are obviously too young to have firmly entrenched personalities from a psychological standpoint. Years of research into military boot camps, isolationist cults, prisons and even college fraternities have all but proven that all people are highly malleable when subjected to environments that favor groupthink and community over the needs of individuals. Young people tend to be more susceptible to these influences than older people, thus the preference that many cults and institutions have for younger members.

3. No exit.

While it isn’t obvious from the description of the proposed program, there does not appear to be much recourse for individuals who take issue with the teacher or the group. It is very “all-or-nothing” in that a student loses his or her investment (in time and finances), as well as membership in the community and approval of the “guru”… powerful motivators; irresistible for 99% of people.

4. No Graduates.

Here it appears that people who complete the program will be able to open their own schools. This carrot is somewhat suspect as it is being dangled on an extremely long ten-year cord. In the mean time, no one will be able to come close to Dr. Yang’s skill level, which will of course reinforce his control over the group. As fighting will presumably be part of the curriculum, there is the added danger that the unconscious message that “you will never be done with this” will be reinforced again and again.

5. Cult speak

Students will be required to learn Chinese; a foreign language for many of the students. This is worrisome, because once again the students thoughts and very self identity will be under the control of the teacher, who has fluent mastery of the language. This particular aspect of cult behavior is particularly worrisome according to cult expert Robert J. Lifton:

” Beginners have to learn all of the new terminology in order to fit in, and understand what is being said. Then, the new language has the effect of separating the newcomer from his old world, and from his old circle of friends. His new friends will tell him that ‘Only another member understands’, and it will be true. When he babbles nothing but cult-speak, nobody but another cult member will be able to understand.”

These are just five of the most basic hallmarks of cult behavior. I am not trying to lambaste Dr. Yang, but rather point out that his program, as outlined, appears to be somewhat dangerous. Ten years is enough time for even those most well-adjusted and good intentioned group to succumb to disaster. I would sincerely like to see such a venture as Dr. Yang is proposing succeed, but several important things would have to change within the program itself if the outlined pitfalls were to be avoided.

TaiChiBob

11-20-2006, 05:42 AM

Greetings..

It's interesting how over the years i've been on this forum there have been numerous posts lamenting how there was no authentic monastic style training.. how, in the "old days" the masters carefully selected their students.. how they trained secretively.. how they produced highly trained dedicated and loyal disciples.. Now, someone tries to do it, and.. people look for the faults.. predict, without evidence, the failure of such a notion.. and, call to question the intentions of a respectable teacher..

I have been fortunate to be acquainted with Dr. Yang for quite a few years, now.. and i sense no "cult" inclinations, rather the opposite.. as i understand his motives, it is to help the selected students transcend the mundane training found in the public venues.. to take them to a place in their own lives where they would likely not be able to go on their own.. I'm not going to pre-judge this venture, if it works out favorably, i will applaud Dr. Yang's efforts.. if not, i will be a vocal critic..

This type of training is not for everyone.. between a youngster's desire and Dr. Yang's selection criteria, there should be a better than even chance of success.. Money is not the only issue, there is natural talent, quality of character, physical condition, and understanding of the challenge ahead.. If it works, it could be a model for future ventures.. if not, it will serve as an example to modify future similar attempts.. in any case, it's a first step..

It's an ambitious venture both for the teacher and the student.. if Dr. Yang feels that 10 years is the appropriate time, it's his call.. it's his venture.. no one forces a student to do this, and anyone is free to leave as they choose.. this will weed out the mediocre, it will cull those unable to handle real pressure, and, if successful, should produce a generation of highly qualified teachers.. well-versed in a comprehensive martial system.. it is a reasonable attempt to raise the bar for CMA..

Be well..

Samurai Jack

11-20-2006, 07:10 AM

My training is hardly mundane, but you definatly bring up an interesting point. What Dr. Yang is attempting to do is certainly admirable, however the building of a monastic community is VERY different from the operation of a martial arts school. It requires a different set of expectations, and a different "educational model" if you will, from what most of us have been exposed to in public martial education.

First there needs to be very clearly dileniated roles among the members of the community. In order to assure successful educational skills, the teacher must of course be in charge of how the "in school" program is run. Most monasteries have a building set aside for training, and there's a reason for that: outside of class time, the students are typically running the day to day operation of the rest of the program. Even in old style Zen training a small group of senior students were in charge of such things as meal planning, building maintainance, scheduling activities around training times, and scheduling recreational activties for rest etc. This makes the monastery work as more of a democratic community and keeps the "leader" from dominating too much of the student's lives. Private time needs to be scheduled. This is one key point that helps to prevent problems.

Secondly, there needs to be an body of arbiters, typically peers who support the monastery indirectly by contributing, although proffessionals who are not directly involved with the teacher are often employed (psychologists and lawyers for example), in order to mediate disputes within the community of various legal, medical, of psych-social natures. This board of advisers, if you will, is the body with which the ultimate decision to accept or expel members should be entrusted. While deciscions of the teacher will normally be supported, cases may exist down the line wherin this will not be the case.

There is a great deal of information concerning how to operate such an organization, but again, a venture like this requires a certain level of experience. I'm not saying that Dr. Yang dosen't have this experience; I don't know. I'm just pointing out that some of the advertised features of this training program seem rife with pitfalls. There are ways to set up such an organization that will ensure safeguards are in place, and that good serious training can be endured safely.

SPJ

11-20-2006, 08:02 AM

I have no doubts on the perseverance, diligence, and dedication on the part of the teacher.

"10 years are like a day" as the saying goes.

however, most of my skepticism is on the part of the students.

I was a student of several teachers for a long time or more than a decade long.

For the most part, I was practicing the "basics". To grow into a big tree, one must have a strong root. I was told.

The intermediate and advance stuff are only useful, when you have a good base.

I meant for over a decade, I was only practicing the basics.

To advance, it is really up to the students. Teacher may provide guidance. But the student is the one that has to do most of the work.

The idea for one to hide away in the cave, in the mountains or Bi Guan (close the gate) and practice. Actually, you are by yourself to practice, no distraction. at critical point, teach gives you a clue. A teacher being there all the time is a distraction, too.

I meant for the most part, you are by YOURSELF and practice.

--

:D

Shaolindynasty

11-20-2006, 12:50 PM

I am big on the idead that in order to keep people interested in CMA in needs to be kept in a modern context. The notion that you need to spend 10yrs in seclusion to reap the benifits of kungfu will do more to hurt kungfu than help.

Royal Dragon

11-20-2006, 01:05 PM

I don't think so personally. There are sub groups that will allways follow that romantic notion. Then there will allways be those who see it in the modern venues as well. It all depends on where you fall in your own practice.

I think in the long run, haveing this, and making it a sucsess will be a bennifit for kung fu.

YouKnowWho

11-20-2006, 02:41 PM

A teacher being there all the time is a distraction, too.
I'm with you on this. If the teacher always answers questions then students never have chance to think and find solution for themself. In the long run it may restrict the students growth.

Shaolindynasty

11-20-2006, 06:43 PM

RD- Benefit how? I see it as resitrictive. It is gonna be interesting to watch though.

Royal Dragon

11-20-2006, 07:20 PM

The addition of such a facillity would not impar on what any of us are doing. It would be an additional diversity, and be turning out some top notch players, that will strengthen Kung Fu in the long run.

TaiChiBob

11-21-2006, 05:50 AM

Greetings..

A teacher being there all the time is a distraction, too.It can be a distraction, depending on the teacher.. similarly, if the teacher has real quality, they will see the same issues we do and compensate.. i think Dr. Yang is sensitive enough to let the students grow in their own ways.. his interest is in building a strong CMA system, not a cult..

I generally trust someone until they give me a reason not to.. Dr. Yang has given me no such reasons.. One of society's unhealthy traits is an over-abundance of skepticism.. there is healthy skepticism, then there is social paranoia.. much of society is steeped in paranoia (not that certain institutions haven't given us reason), but.. i think the paranoia is also a self-fulfilling prophesy, where the object of the paranoia finally defends itself in an escalating attempt to balance the equation.. not unlike the Dems vs. the Reps, where the goal of national interest yields to party paranoia, each seeking to protect its own interests..

If Dr. Yang's stated goals prevail over the skepticism, i think it will serve CMA well.. if not, it will make it that much more difficult for someone else to try something similar.. as an optimist i hope for the best.

Be well..

SPJ

11-21-2006, 08:03 AM

Best wishes and good luck for all.

:)

Shaolindynasty

11-21-2006, 11:08 AM

The addition of such a facillity would not impar on what any of us are doing

Exactly, so how would it benefit us? There are already allot of "top notch players". The addition of only 15 more will change nothing for any of us. It's good for his lineage though.

Anyway, what is going to happen to his schools when he starts this intensive program?

TaiChiBob

11-21-2006, 11:25 AM

SPJ

11-22-2006, 12:49 AM

Greetings..

What if? what if? What if?... What if his plan works, what if he produces 10 good teachers highly trained in a comprehensive system, what if they are savvy business people, what if they are successful.. What if the 10 each produce another 10 more..

Be well..

Que sera sera. What will be will be.

I think the students are in good hand. There will be plenty of stuff to keep them busy for the coming 3000 days.

even just doing the horse stance for 3000 days is an impeccable record or feat already.

or Tan Tui snap kick for 3000 days etc.

---

I would add 4 more things.

1. play a musical instrument (Qin): to understand and enjoy music and develop emotionally.

2. play chess (Chi): tactics and strategy. when to advance and when to retreat, see several moves ahead, know the big picture, lose small to win big etc etc. even Sun Tzu played chess, too.

3. write or read poems (Si or Shu): to understand and use of words to describe nature, characters, and emotions.

4. paint (Hua): to appreciate and paint.

These compliment or balance the "violent intent" of MA practice.

--

To be a better person is always more important than the fighting skills. or Zuo Ren.

--

:D

Samurai Jack

11-22-2006, 01:16 AM

I like the idea of the 3000 days of kungfu, SPJ. It would be really awesome to make a commitment to do that, then keep an online blog. Maybe get brothers and sisters to each take up a different specialty. Maybe that's too much like a wu xia movie, but it'd be fun to read about the golden bell guy, the iron palm lady, and the plum flower pole guy (for example) as they worked thier way through the daily training and became master's of thier respective disciplines.

Samurai Jack

11-22-2006, 01:19 AM

Stay tuned for my "1000 Caddies Field Gate" blog.

;)

IronFist

11-22-2006, 07:33 PM

David Jamieson

11-22-2006, 07:41 PM

Ford Prefect

11-22-2006, 08:13 PM

Iron,

Give me a freakin break. The MMA guy needs 2 months at least. :)

SPJ

11-22-2006, 09:01 PM

But I can't help but wonder, what happens when the students complete 10 years of training and can still be beaten by an MMA guy with 1 month of training?

If your school is graduating students in a month, then

the school will be closed for business before long.

b/c the pool of students is depleted or turnover very fast.

--

:)

SPJ

11-23-2006, 06:50 AM

But I can't help but wonder, what happens when the students complete 10 years of training and can still be beaten by an MMA guy with 1 month of training?

"winning and losing, these are normal affairs of an army."

"the army with pride/conceit/over confidence will lose."

"the army with grief/sorrow will win" Sun Tzu.

as pointed out, the challenges are really on the shoulders of the students. if they may somehow stick it out as long as they can. they would set an example of long term commitments for other prospective students.

this would increase high retention rate of the students for the long haul and more business for all MA schools, teachers and related industry?

they would turn the legend/fairy tale into realism?

--

:D

YouKnowWho

11-23-2006, 04:46 PM

But I can't help but wonder, what happens when the students complete 10 years of training and can still be beaten by an MMA guy with 1 month of training?
It will be very unlikely if Yang could arrange his teaching program as below:

1. 6 am to 7 am - 5 miles uphill running.
2. 7 am - 8 am - breakfast.
3. 8 am - 12 noon - heavy bag and weight equipment training.
4. 12 noon - 1 pm - lunch break.
5. 1 pm - 5 pm - Sanshou fights, wrestling, and ground fight.
6. 5 pm - 7 pm - 2 men drills.
7. 7 pm - 8 pm - dinner break.
8. 8 pm - 10 pm - TCMA forms.
9. 10 pm - go to bed with rope around your neck and legs (if you know what I mean).

10 years training like this could make anybody unbeatable. But do anybody know how will he arrange his training program?

SPJ

11-23-2006, 06:39 PM

Good points made by all, especially Samurai Jack and Ford.

But I can't help but wonder, what happens when the students complete 10 years of training and can still be beaten by an MMA guy with 1 month of training?

It really depends on what one wants to achieve.

If you are interesting in sparring or fighting competitions, then you want short turnover time. some basic punches, kicks and throws. understanding the rules and spar away. the more you fight/spar, the better you are, so you may keep a sparring log and attend matches in a sparring/fight club.

If you are to promote, progagate or "move" the traditions of a style in a new direction or add more stuff etc. Then you are into research, try and error etc. The process will be ongoing till late lifetime.

Dong Hai Chuan had some finer stuff of Ba Gua Zhang passed to Liang Zhen Pu, the final student.

each practitioner may add their experiences from practicing and interpretations, Such as Hong Jun Sheng wrote new classics in 3 character poems for Chen Tai Ji.

--

So it really upto the teacher and the dedicated/talented students to take the things the way they both want.

--

:)

Royal Dragon

11-24-2006, 05:16 AM

1. 6 am to 7 am - 5 miles uphill running.
2. 7 am - 8 am - breakfast.
3. 8 am - 12 noon - heavy bag and weight equipment training.
4. 12 noon - 1 pm - lunch break.
5. 1 pm - 5 pm - Sanshou fights, wrestling, and ground fight.
6. 5 pm - 7 pm - 2 men drills.
7. 7 pm - 8 pm - dinner break.
8. 8 pm - 10 pm - TCMA forms.
9. 10 pm - go to bed with rope around your neck and legs (if you know what I mean).

10 years training like this could make anybody unbeatable. But do anybody know how will he arrange his training program?

Reply]
I think a program like this would perpetually burn an athlete out, cause many needless over traininng injuries and over all slow progress. It would probably take 10 years to accomplish what everyone else could do in 6 by only training 4 to 6 hours a day max, 4-5 days a week.

You are only aloting maybe 8 hours of sleep here, no shower time. There is only 3 meals scheduled. Some one THAT athletically active will need at least 4, if not 5.

Personally, I think you would be better off with a 6 hour day, 4 *Maybe* 5 days a week, with a recovery day or two every 3rd, to 4th day.

7:00-8:00 Breakfast/personal time. Make sure meal is heavy on fruites, but also include some form of protine for mental concentraition and other brain functions (I know it's weird to say, but Fish would be the best source at this time).

8:00 -11:00Am Warmups (example - Light jog 10-20 minutes, + light basics etc..) Followed by Qi gong, forms and or Stance work, on even days, and 2 man work, drills and sparring on odd days.

11:00-1:00 Lunch, and rest so the athlete is properly digested before being active again.

1:00-4:00 Warm ups followed by conditioning, equipment training for strength (Weights, Locks and specialty resistance equipment like Rock poles), on even days, as well as Iron hand/body conditioning and flexiblity work after, on a daily basis . Odd days would be learning, and working new skills, drills, and light sparring, plus the daily Iron hand/body and flexibility.

Never go more than 2-3 days in a row without a recovery day where the athlete spends most of the day resting (or light activity ONLY) and eating lots of meat. Active training days the Athlete should eat more raw fruites, veggies, and rice for carbs. Meat should be eaten after the days workout, closer to bed so he is protine loaded while he rebuilds during sleep.

4:00 3rd meal

5:00 - 7:00 Light physical activity. Rest and relaxation for the evening, Reading, TV, Discussion/social time with other students etc... If there *Is* any class time, Only learning of theory, and concepts. Maybe a good time to learn bone setting, accupressure/puncture or herbal healing.

7:00 Dinner, shower, and bed by 10:00 at the latest, preferably sooner.

I prefer doing a 10 day cycle, with the 1st & 3rd day, and the 6th & 8th days being the same schedule, based on what the greatest needsof the Athlete are . Example, strength, and conditioning, or if a fight is comming up sparring and skills work. The 2nd, and 7th days would be the opposite. Example, If he has a fight comming up, those two days would be the strength & conditioning plus flexibility days, so he get 4 days of skill work per cycle to tune him in for the upcomming fight.

The 10 day cycle give 2 days off for rest, in between 3 days of training. I myself used to do a 9 day cycle with one day off inbetween each 3 days on, and the 2 days off before starting the cycle over. But I was younger then, and at almost 39 years old now, I need more recovery time, so i changed it to a 10 day cycle for that extra day to rest up.

If you do things like above, you will accomplish in 5-6 years, what traditionally took 10 due to planed recovery, rest & development time, and extra meals with focus on carb loading during times of activity, and protine loading during times of recovery (Give the body what it needs, when it needs it).

IronFist

11-26-2006, 12:16 PM

RD's training schedule is much better.

IronFist

11-26-2006, 12:18 PM

If your school is graduating students in a month, then

the school will be closed for business before long.

b/c the pool of students is depleted or turnover very fast.

--

:)

I didn't say graduating after one month, but an average MMA guy with one or two months could beat a traditional guy with years of training. Did you see the first UFCs?

People with years of TKD, kung fu, etc., show up at MMA gyms and get schooled by noobs. Then they usually join the MMA gym. It happened to me.

FuXnDajenariht

11-26-2006, 12:58 PM

oy.....vey

SPJ

11-26-2006, 01:52 PM

I didn't say graduating after one month, but an average MMA guy with one or two months could beat a traditional guy with years of training. Did you see the first UFCs?

People with years of TKD, kung fu, etc., show up at MMA gyms and get schooled by noobs. Then they usually join the MMA gym. It happened to me.

what if there is a 2 second on the ground rule or break/stop if it is on the ground?

and you only get points from punches (boxing), kicks (TKD) and throws?

aren't you wasting time to tumble on the ground, b/c you get zero points?

:D

SPJ

11-26-2006, 09:30 PM

I have only attended 2 to 3 weeks training in a retreat up the mountain before.

We had 3 meals and a late nite snack.

2 hour lunch break I mean including 1 hour nap or rest time after lunch.

between 10 am to 2 pm are not good time for any physical things.

--

I have no idea about the effect of a prolonged intensive traning. I mean just practice and nothing else.

I do keep a daily practice schedule, but I also attend to other things in life, work, family, friends etc

--

:D

Royal Dragon

11-26-2006, 09:40 PM

between 10 am to 2 pm are not good time for any physical things.

Reply]
Why not? I get my best workouts between those times.

IronFist

11-26-2006, 10:41 PM

what if there is a 2 second on the ground rule or break/stop if it is on the ground?

and you only get points from punches (boxing), kicks (TKD) and throws?

aren't you wasting time to tumble on the ground, b/c you get zero points?

:D

You're right, I forgot that actual combat involves points ;)

TaiChiBob

11-27-2006, 05:30 AM

Greetings..

But I can't help but wonder, what happens when the students complete 10 years of training and can still be beaten by an MMA guy with 1 month of training?Since we're wondering, i wonder if Dr. Yang intends to incorporate ground fighting in his curriculum.. wouldn't that be interesting! I hope Dr. Yang is farsighted enough to bring guest coaches in to expand his intended system to a well-rounded marital art..

MMA is a very successful and fight-tested discipline, but.. it suffers from the same constraints that CMA does.. rules!! Each perspective of the sport-fight game picks at the other from a rules based perspective.. at the end of the day, i expect my training to save my butt in the street, not get me a bunch of trophies or fame.. it is also noteworthy that several MMA events have resulted in stand-up fighters successfully avoiding the take-down.. heck, there are ground-fighters that lay down and beg the stand-up fighters to play their game, and that's embarassing to watch.. they should be balanced enough to stand or roll as the situation demands..

As usual, any reasonable conversation in a CMA forum about CMA ends up with MMA people telling everyone how their art is the best.. Certainly, MMA has pushed CMA to re-evaluate its approach, but.. like all things, there will be change, CMA will adapt.. MMA will adapt as well.. and, Martial Arts as a whole will benefit.. there is no "best" art.. there are cycles of dominance, adaptation and change.. I hope Dr. Yang's concept incorporates adaptation and change within TCMA principles.. that could be very interesting.. still, i think cautious optimism should be the attitude toward Dr. Yang's concept.. at least he's making an effort.. much easier to criticize the efforts of others that to put it out there yourself..

Be well..

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 06:19 AM

Yao Sing

11-27-2006, 07:11 AM

I think it's funny how all the MMA elitists forget that points are awarded and scores are kept at all the MMA sporting events.

I wish I could remember the name of the young guy that gave an interview after his win explaining how he lost in the past because his opponents were doing things to score points while he was spending all his time trying to end the fight. He said he learned from that and now he knows how to play the game.

:D :D :D

SPJ

11-27-2006, 10:00 AM

The old Chinese timing system: one Shi Cheng is actually lasting 2 hours.

so 12-2 is not good for doing physical stuff.

10-12 is to be avoided, too. I would practice well into 11 am but after that I wound stop.

something to do with your Qi meridian of the day.

I duno the details.

:confused:

SPJ

11-27-2006, 10:06 AM

Greetings..

still, i think cautious optimism should be the attitude toward Dr. Yang's concept.. at least he's making an effort.. much easier to criticize the efforts of others that to put it out there yourself..

Be well..

Agreed. I think that it really does not matter what would come out of it.

I simply like the idea of daily practice for 10 years or more with breaks here and there of course.

"diligence will make up shortcomings" (Qin Neng Bu Zuo).

"practices make perfect" "something good/refined will come out of proficiency" (Su Neng Shen Qiao).

:)

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 10:52 AM

Knifefighter

11-27-2006, 11:36 AM

MMA is a very successful and fight-tested discipline, but.. it suffers from the same constraints that CMA does.. rules!! Each perspective of the sport-fight game picks at the other from a rules based perspective.. at the end of the day, i expect my training to save my butt in the street,
How do you train for your no rules street fights? I'm guessing you still have rules in your training, otherwise you would all be injured or dead.

mantiskilla

11-27-2006, 11:39 AM

"How do you train for your no rules street fights? I'm guessing you still have rules in your training, otherwise you would all be injured or dead."

LOL.:)
________
M57 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_M57)

Yao Sing

11-27-2006, 11:45 AM

I myself would love to do a 2 week camping trip where I could do some primative camping, hiking, and daily Kung Fu.

Sounds good to me too. If not maybe we can get an informal group of camping kung fu nuts together and set up our own retreat. Or we could do like the rainbow people and start our own gatherings around the country.

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 12:10 PM

That is not a bad idea. I am actually waiting for our group to grow some students, so I can start a annual camping trip to Starved Rock every year.

Knifefighter

11-27-2006, 12:21 PM

heck, there are ground-fighters that lay down and beg the stand-up fighters to play their game, and that's embarassing to watch..

Reply]
I have seen this too. I allways wondered why no one stomps these morons in the Nads...

Because it is hard to kick someone there when they are using open guard and kicking back at you... try it sometime.

TaiChiBob

11-27-2006, 12:30 PM

Greetings..

"How do you train for your no rules street fights? I'm guessing you still have rules in your training, otherwise you would all be injured or dead."Absolutely, no rules would be a bit irresponsible.. the point of the excerpt, which i may have not made clear enough, is that results in a controlled environment will favor the home-team (rules).. results in the street, where it actually matters, will differ.. if someone trains to dominate a sport venue, no problem.. but, i think there is good wisdom in training for street encounters.. being aware of multiple opponents, conditions on the ground, furniture and such odds and ends that might be used as weapons, etc... the mount leaves both opponents vulnerable from the other's buddies.. ground conditions, like in a bar, are sometimes too unsanitary for mixing with blood.. i have actually seen a guy make the mount and get a boot in the back of his head from his opponent's buddy..

Too many people (MMA) think that the ground game is superior.. i think it is just another tool to be used in measured proportion to the situation. Street situations have many variables which indicate the wisdom of stand-up combat, too much reliance on a ground game might compromise a street encounter. While i have trained for the likelihood that i could end up on the ground, i prefer the stand-up game.. my ground game is weaker than my stand-up and it is focused on getting back on my feet (unless the opponent just screws up and offers me the finishing move)..

MMA is a great tool in the Martial Artists arsenal, especially if it's usefulness is clearly understood..

Be well..

5Animals1Path

11-27-2006, 12:39 PM

If he is going to do this, I would like to see him offer camps, seminars and such for the general public, and make it possible for others to join the original group if some sort of requirements are met.

I myself would love to do a 2 week camping trip where I could do some primative camping, hiking, and daily Kung Fu.

Ditto.

Especially if he plans on stopping his normal seminars (I seem to remember his website saying something to that effect). I've got a couple of the guy's books, and would love to train with him. But ain't no way I'm gonna pack up for 10 years to do it.

Besides, after a few years of training, he's gonna have to start teaching them how to teach. And he's gonna need more students to do that. Otherwise, they're going to be very well trained guys with startup cash for a school and no idea how to relate to the variety of people that they'll come across.

Plus, more money for Dr. Yang. Of course he's trying to make money with this (Who in their right mind wouldn't if they could?). And if he's plays half a good a game as he talks, I don't mind shelling out some cash.

mantiskilla

11-27-2006, 12:41 PM

a couple of thoughts, not really directed at anyone:

1.kung fu IS (or should be) MMA. In that it should produce a fighter that has multiple skills at different ranges. at least that is the way my sifu teaches me and he is 'old school' from HK (he also loves to watch UFC, lol).

2. if you can take care of yourself in a ring with knees, legs, fists, elbows coming at you from someone wanting to hurt you, then i think you'll be just fine in the 'street' (whatever that term means...never really figured it out). its the aggression AND usage factor that most kung fu is lacking in practice. if you dont use the right tools in any situation you may have a problem, but if you practice multiple skills (MMA/Kung fu) and you practice with full aggression...you should learn how and when to use those tools.
________
FIND HEADSHOP (http://headshop.net/)

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 01:08 PM

Yao Sing

11-27-2006, 01:32 PM

TaiChiBob

11-27-2006, 01:38 PM

Greetings..

Really KF, that has got to be the dumbest thing you have ever said..Yeah, that's what i thought, too.. but, if it's a good MMA fighter, you will be unpleasantly surprised.. Yao Sing knows Troy P... and, you are much more likely to end up on your butt than "stomping crotch" with Troy.. A good MMA fighter on his back is still quite dangerous, deceptively so..

Be well..

Nick Forrer

11-27-2006, 02:53 PM

Because it is hard to kick someone there when they are using open guard and kicking back at you... try it sometime.

Reply]
Oh really? How about you lay down on your back, spread your legs, and then try and stop me Pal...

Really KF, that has got to be the dumbest thing you have ever said.......:rolleyes:

Actually if anything the guy standing is more vunerable to a groin kick than the other guy since he can only use one leg at a time (as he needs at least one leg to stand on) whereas the guy on his back is free to use both his legs and does not have to worry about maintaining his balance. Per KF, try it sometime.

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 04:18 PM

So, then kick him like a football......

Knifefighter

11-27-2006, 06:13 PM

Reply]
Oh really? How about you lay down on your back, spread your legs, and then try and stop me Pal...

Considering the fact that I have been using this for years, I'd be more than willing to do this.

I'll bet I can blow out your knee before your can manage a damaging groin shot.

Knifefighter

11-27-2006, 06:18 PM

Actually if anything the guy standing is more vunerable to a groin kick than the other guy since he can only use one leg at a time (as he needs at least one leg to stand on) whereas the guy on his back is free to use both his legs and does not have to worry about maintaining his balance. Per KF, try it sometime.
The top guy is actually not very vulnerable to groin shots. His knees are the areas that are open. The top guy is more apt to get his knees blown out than he is to land groin shots.

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 06:43 PM

KF,
I really don't see it, sorry. If you are ever in Chicago, you are more than welcome to prove me wrong.

Knifefighter

11-27-2006, 06:52 PM

KF,
I really don't see it, sorry. If you are ever in Chicago, you are more than welcome to prove me wrong.
Do you have a school? If so, what is the address?

rogue

11-27-2006, 07:31 PM

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 07:45 PM

No, no school. I am just sort of on my own at the moment.

Do you know any good people around here?

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 07:47 PM

Hell RD, wimins been stopping you that way for years.

Reply]
LOL!!!

GeneChing

04-14-2009, 10:31 AM

http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org/news_events/2009/04/13/last-chance-become-disciple-retreat-center

We are announcing the last chance to apply to become a disciple of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming and a student of the YMAA Retreat Center. After this applicant pool, there will be no more students accepted into the program. Deadline for applications is May 31st. The 10-year program began in Sept 2008.

Please mention this in your community and pass on to anyone who may be interested. Thank you.

If you didn't get the chance to read my article on this, check out Dr. Yang and his Disciples in our 2009 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797). Also check out our May June 2009 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=929368) for the first article by one of Dr. Yang's disciples, Fundamental Martial Arts Conditioning: Jumping by Jonathan D. Chang.

golden arhat

04-14-2009, 11:11 AM

wait wait wait wait

$500,000 ???

not ever happening.

yenhoi

04-16-2009, 06:45 AM

San Shou has more rules (more restrictive) then UFC

UFC more rules then Vale Tudo

Vale Tudo has groin and head stomps (and un-successful groin and head stomps) vs open guard.

Good feeder-tournaments in Hawaii with less restrictive rules then UFC seemingly. Inoue Brothers etc. There used to be a skinny black fighter in those old DVDs that ended many cage fights with crazy jumping stomping flying techniques. TKD guy, Wasn't very good really, but unorthodox and loved to stomp heads.

etc, you guys are funny. Iron fist gets an 8 from me.

:eek::eek::eek:

bawang

04-16-2009, 08:24 AM

yang jwing ming is greedy >:(
grrrr

yenhoi

04-16-2009, 09:58 AM

Havoc in Honolulu!

:D

David Jamieson

04-16-2009, 10:28 AM

yang jwing ming is greedy >:(
grrrr

lol, to be sure he is a "business and money first" kind of guy by most reckonings.

taai gihk yahn

04-16-2009, 05:02 PM

lol, to be sure he is a "business and money first" kind of guy by most reckonings.

haggled fiercely with me 15 years ago over a few $ on some books he was trying to fire-sale at a tournament...

bawang

04-16-2009, 06:40 PM

i see his taiji application on youtube, another of those doing qin na softly videos

whats with so many taiji masters turning simple block punch into some complicated kama sutra qin na?

Yao Sing

04-16-2009, 06:52 PM

On the retreat - sounds like he didn't get the response he anticipated and is still trying to get students to join.

And on the crotch stomp on downed opponent - anyone think about grabbing the feet THEN stomping the crotch?

I think too many peeps are stuck thinking inside the box, especially when there are no pesky rules to get in the way of having your way.

sideslider

04-16-2009, 08:01 PM

if everyone pitches in one of us can go...

I just realized that I am reading a book by yang jwing-ming, and it maight not even be the book I was looking for :( ...

SPJ

04-17-2009, 07:01 AM

10 years a big chunck of time for anyone.

maybe shorten the time span and offer variable programs.

such as

1. 2 years as if a junior college.

2. 4 years as if undergraduate

3. 4 to 5 years as if graduate

b/c

1. some people may have talents may need shorter time

2. specific programs and progression for each indiviual depending his or her physical attributes and talents and needs

3. general programs for everyone would be 2 years

just like in college

some general courses.

major in a certain field such as throwing, shooting the arrows, sword or spear etc

graduate study in---

etc.

10 years of one's life time is a lot for a lot of people in a modern society.

most would carry on or continue at his or her own pace once done with "education" for the rest of his or her life.

:)

yenhoi

04-17-2009, 07:15 AM

And on the crotch stomp on downed opponent - anyone think about grabbing the feet THEN stomping the crotch?

Standard guardpass or leglock setup in most NHB camps.

I think YOU already knew that.

"Feet Holding Techniques"

:eek:

GeneChing

04-22-2009, 09:42 AM

I admire Dr. Yang's disciple project, which is one of the reasons I covered it. Dr. Yang's writings were very influential on the American understanding of Chinese Martial Arts. I'm not going to begrudge him making enough money on it to build this retreat center. I've been there. It's spectacular. I wish I made enough money to build one like it and hope someday to visit Dr. Yang's center again.

In the tradition of Dr. Yang, the disciples are submitting articles now. We published the first in our 2009 May/June issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=819) (on the newsstands now!), Fundamental Martial Arts Conditioning: Jumping By Jonathan D. Chang.

FINAL CALL FOR 10-YEAR TRAINING PROGRAM WITH DR. YANG

For over 40 years, Chinese martial arts master Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has taught thousands of students in seminars and through his association of 50 schools around the world. Now, he has a new plan to teach a select group of exceptional young students in a remote mountain training facility in Northern California, the not-for-profit YMAA Retreat Center. His goal is to push the standard of today's training up to a higher standard, closer to that of ancient times, when disciples lived and studied with a teacher for a minimum of 10 years. The graduating students will be Masters of a caliber higher than Dr Yang, capable of teaching countless others their martial and healing skills.

This 10-year program started in September 2008, after the successful raising of funds and construction of two buildings, with solar power, a Spring-fed well, and an organic garden capable of sustaining the project completely off the grid on 240 acres of forest.

This is a final call for student applicants - please visit this webpage:
http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org/students/application

Applications from qualified students, aged 17-22 will be accepted until May 31, 2009, and the second group accepted will spend nine years training in the traditional way with Dr. Yang, guest instructors, and other senior YMAA members. The expanded curriculum consists of barehand and weapons forms of many external arts, such as Shaolin Kung Fu, as well as internal arts, like Yang-style Taijiquan and Qigong. The program also offers instruction in meditation, healing, Chinese language, culture, and cooking, and much more. Classes are six days per week, and the students get two vacation periods to return home each year, similar to other Master Degree programs.

Anyone interested in this program can learn more at the Retreat Center website, where you may also get a glimpse into the Center in the first video produced by the first group of students:
http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org/news_events/2009/01/12/first-retreat-center-promo-video

Interested students should apply now. Thank you.

Read More;
http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org/news_events/2009/04/13/last-chance-become-disciple-retreat-center"

Lucas

04-22-2009, 09:46 AM

makes me wish i was younger :o

Ford Prefect

08-16-2009, 11:30 AM

uki

08-16-2009, 11:37 AM

I'd love to visit the center too and I don't mind the guy making money from his product. so lack of money makes men inferiour to the knowledge and understanding being transmitted?

This is America after all.goodness gracious... don't remind me. :D

SoCo KungFu

08-16-2009, 11:12 PM

Meh...I pay $45 a month for better training. And I can still get my degree done while doing it. Not bad for a guy living off $1100 a month. I think I'll stick with what I got.

TenTigers

08-16-2009, 11:19 PM

so lack of money makes men inferiour to the knowledge and understanding being transmitted?
goodness gracious... don't remind me. :D
nope, but there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your efforts, especially if you have a good product.

SoCo KungFu

08-16-2009, 11:23 PM

so lack of money makes men inferiour to the knowledge and understanding being transmitted?

I always kinda thought the ones without tend to appreciate less, more.

Maybe if he was such a noble and generous guy he'd take a couple into his little program that didn't have much else going for them. If his goal is in fact to have a few dedicated students. But hey this all could just be the t.v. talkin, I just got through a Rocky marathon.
"When you're hurt and feelin' like you're goin' down. That little angel's gonna whisper in your ear and its gonna say, Get up you son-of-a-*****! Cuz Mickey love's ya!"

Besides didn't Buddha say less is more?....or he probably said less is less but less is better....eh whatever....Gina Carano is still hot

Lots of people got hit in the head with baseballs this week

taai gihk yahn

08-17-2009, 03:55 AM

Lots of people got hit in the head with baseballs this week
next time, duck, brother...:D

TenTigers

08-17-2009, 09:24 AM

Crushing Step

08-17-2009, 09:48 AM

I think this is amazing.

As a side note to the 10 year thing. Chen Man Ching accepted Lee Kam Wing as a "closed door" disciple for ten years, for the purpose of transmitting the entire 7* Mantis system to LKW. So this is not unheard of.

Judging by Dr Yang's books alone, it is obvious there is a ton of knowledge in there. If he doesn't have any full fledged disciples, then that is a lot of knowledge and history lost.

I hope the program is a success.

bawang

08-17-2009, 10:02 AM

its ok to teach for money ande its ok to teach for free in my opinion, its up to you, there no right and wrong but in the past its not uncommon for good sifus to get 10 to 20 piece of silver (average man can live on one piece silver for 2 months)
so according to tradition todays sifu should get $80000 to $160000 for each student :eek:

TenTigers

08-17-2009, 10:16 AM

I agree Bawang, money is not a deciding factor.
My former Sifu as well as the three teachers that I train with now, all teach me for free, -although I still give lai-see.
Traditionally, the students support the Sifu, in many cases, building or providing a home/mo-kwoon for him.
In a way, this is still done, only through direct transfer of your tuition to the Sifu's account. We accept Visa, Master Card, and Discovery.;)
But, the student should still have the mental and psychological capacity to be able to financially support himself.
Otherwise you end up with a school full of crazies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZK8QcsBkz0

bawang

08-17-2009, 10:32 AM

tru tru

the best kung fu guy i ever met worked in chinese restaurants for 30 years and is very poor and refused to let me call sifu ,he taught for free, and now i cant find him anymore ( i was 12 year old)
i went though similar money problems travelling all alone to big city right after high school (and refuse parent money help) and now i finally understand my friend. when i find money i will find him and bow down and ask him be my sifu, and i will give him all my money so he can live confortable (hes 50 year old and still had barely enough money to live)
when i think about him i cry

i met people that taught for free that are amazing, i met crazy people with no skills that taught for free, i met people that charge alot because they get too many ppeople wanting to ask to be students, and i met people that charge a lot but never had any skills at all

bawang

08-17-2009, 10:38 AM

i used to think its not honorable to teach for money but after learning mroe about chinese culture and going through money problems i change my mind. in chinese society the wu shi martial class is the lowest on the society even lower than farmers. they are treated with no respect and are treated like animals. many had to work for the criminals and rob people and be guards for prostitute blue houses and gambling houses.
if u want to be traditional then give lots of money to your sifu and support your sifu (unless hes a cold business man and doesnt see u as a brother/friend/son)

thats why people fight to the death on the let tai. not for honor or glory or to be tough, but to fight for peoples entertainment for money. i think students should support their sifu.
however i think sifus should develep closer relationship to student and take less students, and less like a business

however i think doctor yang is overdoing it and is charging too much money. we are talking about in the millions he is making here

SoCo KungFu

08-17-2009, 12:01 PM

well, if you cannot afford reasonable tuition, then it means that you cannot either hold a job, or keep your finances in order. Either way, if you do not have the discipline to take care of your own basic needs, how could you possibly have the discipline to correctly and thoroughly learn Kung-Fu, as well as be a representative of your Sifu?

Financial responsibility isn't the same as financial capability.

Since we're talking 17-21 year old's, we're talking high school education. Maybe a technical cert or Associates. How many people in that category are going to be able to front $30,000 for a year of training? How about none.

Granted I was making $30,000/year when I was 21. But I had to join the military to do it. So deals off right there cuz I can't do both. Same with firefighters, cops and health care. All time consuming, none affording the opportunity for that kind of commitment (which is way beyond just committing to the training), while being the only real opportunities for making that kind of money for that short of training (1-2 years of post high school ed).

Its just unrealistic. Somebody's gotta pay for it. More than likely the parents. If they got that kind of money to burn good for them. Though going back to responsibility, if they do they probably (crosses fingers) aren't dumb enough to get caught up in that trap to begin with. Though again, responsibility |= capability. I mean, I guess he could try and teach Paris Hilton

SPJ

08-17-2009, 02:30 PM

yes. there are many teachers offer classes in Taiwan and China that are free or low cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygaU-EUe8mg

:cool:

David Jamieson

08-17-2009, 04:16 PM

People will pay what the market will bear.

YJM will get students who see him as worth that. No harm in that.

Many times there are people who buy a car only for it's name. It is not necessarily a better vehicle than a more economical choice, but it's the badge and the brand that they pay for.

IronFist

12-31-2009, 12:07 PM

IronFist

01-13-2010, 11:31 PM

Really? No replies?

When this program was announced it became a 10 page thread ranging from "awesome" to "creepy."

No one comments on their progress?

5thBrother

01-14-2010, 04:59 AM

Awsome! :D

hehe but seriously looks fantastic, living and breathing MA 24/7 for 10 years! Livin the dream~

But how do they pay for all this if not working for 10 years? How much does it cost the students?

David Jamieson

01-14-2010, 05:53 AM

But how do they pay for all this if not working for 10 years? How much does it cost the students?

...and that's where "creepy" comes in. lol

mawali

01-14-2010, 06:43 AM

Just got this in my email (I'm sure everyone else did too)

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=609182466301

The vid is actually kinda cool, I saw some pullups in there, some Parkour looking stuff, and some guitar playing.

Discuss.

The programme may look and sound good but in such a capitalist society, I guess it is legal and worthwhile! The benefit must be intrinsic to the individual!
If one is seeking true martial skill, I can be sure a 3 year shuaijiao programme is far more worhwhile!

David Jamieson

01-14-2010, 06:52 AM

The programme may look and sound good but in such a capitalist society, I guess it is legal and worthwhile! The benefit must be intrinsic to the individual!
If one is seeking true martial skill, I can be sure a 3 year shuaijiao programme is far more worhwhile!

truly.

------------

kfson

01-14-2010, 06:59 AM

Very impressive.
I wish they wouldn't use the word "disciples". The history of the word makes the group sound like a cult.

sanjuro_ronin

01-14-2010, 07:06 AM

Lucas

01-14-2010, 10:12 AM

Very cool, Sifu Yang is a cool guy and knows his stuff, I am sure that the people there are happy.
The cost is something to wonder about, that's for sure but I think that its a personal choice to place a value on that type of training.

definately. its no different than someone giving nearly or all that they have monitarily in the past to train under a famous well known sifu. whats money in comparison to a happy fulfilling life doing what you love? absolutely nothing.

bawang

01-14-2010, 10:32 AM

whats actually their training schedule? anyone know?

Lucas

01-14-2010, 10:37 AM

from the YMAA site: it looks like he's aiming at classical martial artists, with the horseback riding, art/music, etc...i do like that i see fire arms on that list though.

Training Hours
Monday - Friday:
(33 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = 1287 hours/year = (12870 hours/10 years)

Saturday:
(3 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = 117 hours/year = (1170 hours/10 years)

Total Training Time = 14040 hours/10 Years

Lecture Hours
Monday - Friday:
(15 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = (585 hours/year) = (5850 hours/10 years)

Saturday:
(1 hour/week) x (39 weeks) = (39 hours/year) = (390 hours/10 years)

Total Lecture Time = 6240 hours/10 Years

Meditation Hours
Monday - Friday:
(6 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = (234 hours/year) = (2340 hours/10 years)

Total Meditation Time = 2340 hours/10 Years

Instruction Hours
Barehand
(2400 hours) Staff
(1000 hours) Saber
(1000 hours)

Sword
(1500 hours) Spear
(1000 hours) Projectile Weapons
(500 hours)

Other Weapons
(1400 hours) Injury Treatment
(200 hours) Horseback Riding
(200 hours)

Firearms
(200 hours) Qigong Theory
(100 hours) Grand Circulation
(300 hours)

Qigong Massage
(500 hours) Meditation
(800 hours) Medical Qigong
(200 hours)

Nature
(400 hours) English
(600 hours) Chinese
(600 hours)

History
(600 hours) Teaching/Instructing
(500 hours) Business
(200 hours)

Financial Planning
(200 hours) Cooking
(200 hours) Music and Arts
(300 hours)

bawang

01-14-2010, 10:50 AM

for supposedly internal training theyre doing very little actual qigong

Egg fu young

01-14-2010, 10:51 AM

...and that's where "creepy" comes in. lol

I spit my drink!

taai gihk yahn

01-14-2010, 10:52 AM

for supposedly internal training theyre doing very little actual qigong

they save that for when the wimmins visit...

sanjuro_ronin

01-14-2010, 10:53 AM

they save that for when the wimmins visit...

Oh yeah !!

Still, if I had 10 years of my life to be selfish with, this may be a cool thing to do.

bawang

01-14-2010, 10:54 AM

with the huge mountainload of money theyre paying him and all the supposed hard training, his students look unusually happy

all the good kung fu people i know are permanently sh1tfaced and look like vietnam war veterans

sanjuro_ronin

01-14-2010, 10:56 AM

bawang

01-14-2010, 11:04 AM

he charges 100k total right?

so his students just paid 20 k spending the last two years doing what they couldve done for free

yang jwing ming is my hero

goju

01-14-2010, 12:37 PM

There is a russian stripper school next door.

there is!?
:D i could always use another russian stripper:D

mooyingmantis

01-14-2010, 02:02 PM

It looks like a nice facility he has there. I'm sure it cost an enormous amount of money to build. The fee doesn't sound that outrageous for ten years of room and board, let alone training in kung fu all day.

Richard

Lucas

01-14-2010, 02:22 PM

if i had 100k and could get accepted i would do it in a heartbeat simply for the ability to not have to hold a regular day job, pay rent, bills, commute, etc. and be able to practice martial arts for 10 years straight all day every day and live in a great place learning really neat stuff.

but i dont, so i do the other thing......

TenTigers

01-14-2010, 03:05 PM

they are living the dream we all wish we could. The students are getting traditional full-time live-in instruction, and Master Yang is in his retirement, and able to finally pass on his hand to a select group of hard-working disciples.

Lucas

01-14-2010, 03:07 PM

i cant just go on welfare lol. i have no disablities, im young, strong, smart, good looking. they'll just offer me a job at the office :cool:

bawang

01-14-2010, 03:10 PM

if i could go on welfare and train kung fu all day i would

they are living the dream we all wish we could. The students are getting traditional full-time live-in instruction, and Master Yang is in his retirement, and able to finally pass on his hand to a select group of hard-working disciples.
they can just train by themself for 10 years and save 100 thousand dollars
i trained 6 hours a day every day in my 1 month college vacation for free

seriously the amount hes charging is rediculous. only rich white bois with fantasy wish fulfillment can afford his extra long taichi classes and that is exactly who he was targeting. just another successful martial art scam

guys. 100 THOUSAND.
when i first came to america my family lived on 4000 dollars for a whole year.
100 thousand dollars can buy you lessons from the elite top teachers in china for a lifetime.

those people are fuking FOOLS paying money i cant hoard in a lifetime for yang style taichi.

Lucas

01-14-2010, 03:30 PM

youre right. but those people are probably rich, so they dont even consider it like us regular people do. 100k to richies is like 100 dollars to me.

bawang

01-14-2010, 03:47 PM

those people arent even training hard. they still have fat meat after 2 years of full time training. theyre soft as tofu. its rediculous

traditionally what do you look when choosing a disciple?
no fat people, no light skinned (chinese) because they never tasted hard labor, no shifty eyed people, no weak and frail people, no showoffs etc etc

what does yang jwing ming look for?
no poor people

Lucas

01-14-2010, 04:01 PM

those people arent even training hard. they still have fat meat after 2 years of full time training. theyre soft as tofu. its rediculous

traditionally what do you look when choosing a disciple?
no fat people, no light skinned (chinese) because they never tasted hard labor, no shifty eyed people, no weak and frail people, no showoffs

what does yang jwing ming look for?
no poor people

LOL!!!!!

are you serious though? they should be in great shape with 2 years of full time training.

bawang

01-14-2010, 04:09 PM

Lucas

01-14-2010, 04:44 PM

imo the true test is if any of his disciples enter a professional fight contest and do well after their discipleship. without fighting to prove he made real MA masters out of them, there will always be that question regarding real skill

bawang

01-14-2010, 04:51 PM

i read his website it says theres only 5 students left after 2 years
i doubt even one will finish the 10 years

if they trained in china (for 10 times less money) they wouldnt last one month

Lucas

01-14-2010, 04:53 PM

i read his website it says theres only 5 students left after 2 years
i doubt even one will finish the 10 years

if they trained in china (for 10 times less money) they wouldnt last one month

lol, how many did he start with and does he get to keep the 100k if they bail early?

bawang

01-14-2010, 05:04 PM

i dont remember man sry, it was a thread two years ago. i dont remember if its 100k upfront or 10k a year

Lucas

01-14-2010, 05:08 PM

how dare you not remember everything. :mad:

bawang

01-14-2010, 05:15 PM

i know some poor kung fu people who taught freely; theres a guy whos been working at chinese restaurants for 30 years in poverty and showed me basics of taijiquan and qigong. when i have money, i will find him and bow down and make him my second father and give him enough to live a good life. (im serious here)

another taiji guy, who charged me 200 dollars a month then taught me zero nothing then his cult students try to stop me from talking to him because he is so revered i dont deserve to talk to him? fuk his mother

Shaolindynasty

01-15-2010, 09:49 AM

I don't like to be negative but 2 things,

1. I agree with bawang, people talk alot of trash about shaolin but those guys probaly are training 1000x harder than what yang is having his students go through. You can see it when you're there. The skinny scoweled faces, sun burned skin and amazing kung fu btw, i met a canadian that was there for 3 years and he looked the same.

2. Yang didn't train in a full time program like this. he learned part time from his sifu while he went to school, eventualy comming to america and earning his dr. degree. To me him saying that students need to go through this program(that he didn't) to attain his knowledge is the height of ego. Very cultish

After building this retreat and students dropping out he probally isn't making much money, but to me it seems like his motivation is more to stroke his own ego.

David Jamieson

01-15-2010, 10:02 AM

David Jamieson

01-15-2010, 11:25 AM

The people that go will have their own mind eventually and that is all part of learning.

I agree with Shaolin Dynasty (and more) but because i am working hard at not shattering other people's rice bowls or perspectives, I'll leave it at that. :p

*edit*
because every session shows me how much more i need to work. and it's been a lot of trips around the sun already. :mad:

oh, you'll be hot **** as a younger practitioner, but you will then refine your practice. You will not be actively fighting as you age and you will likely be imparting what you know to someone else eventually.

and still, you'll be working out and recognizing in your practice where structure was wrong, or power issuance wasn't there, or how your will collapsed and you couldn't finish that set.

Someone said "Show business is a heartless and cruel *****."
Martial arts practice can be as well. lol :D

everything that's incorrect, that you work to correct, and can not immediately do so, is what is known as -eating bitter-. :p

TenTigers

01-15-2010, 11:45 AM

if they trained in china (for 10 times less money) they wouldnt last one month
that's cuz they don't have real toilets.
I wouldn't last two days there.

Lucas

01-15-2010, 12:17 PM

that's cuz they don't have real toilets.
I wouldn't last two days there.

thats just horse stance training! ;):p

IronFist

01-15-2010, 04:19 PM

Training Hours
Monday - Friday:
(33 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = 1287 hours/year = (12870 hours/10 years)

Lecture Hours
Monday - Friday:
(15 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = (585 hours/year) = (5850 hours/10 years)

Meditation Hours
Monday - Friday:
(6 hours/week) x (39 weeks) = (234 hours/year) = (2340 hours/10 years)

Um, when do they get personal time? That sounds like 12.8 hours per day of crap to do. Sleep for 8 hours, and that leaves 3.2 hours for things like eating and having fun. That's more than a work day.

IronFist

01-15-2010, 04:24 PM

with the huge mountainload of money theyre paying him and all the supposed hard training, his students look unusually happy

Maybe it's a facade.

Cults do that.

IronFist

01-15-2010, 04:26 PM

when i was training for 2 months in summer vacation my face looked like a skeleton. same in the winter last month.
when i got lazy and stopped training for 1 week i look like his chinese disciple in the video. because a small layer of fat came back. his disciples dont look like they trained hard at all. maybe they did push hands 6 hours a day.

when u stop training and ur fat comes back it also makes your face look soft. his students look nothing like full time kung fu people in china

Way to know about each student's genetics http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh2.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

My face looks like a skeleton even when I eat 4,000 calories a day for years on end.

Some people are fat even if they starve and train 10 hours a day.

That being said, I agree with your next post:

i know some poor kung fu people who taught freely; theres a guy whos been working at chinese restaurants for 30 years in poverty and showed me basics of taijiquan and qigong. when i have money, i will find him and bow down and make him my second father and give him enough to live a good life. (im serious here)

another taiji guy, who charged me 200 dollars a month then taught me zero nothing then his cult students try to stop me from talking to him because he is so revered i dont deserve to talk to him? fuk his mother

http://smiliesftw.com/x/biggthumpup.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

IronFist

01-15-2010, 04:27 PM

Does anyone know if the students who left have a blog or anything? It would be interesting to hear insiders' accounts, same as it is for insiders who leave any closed off group.

IronFist

01-15-2010, 04:29 PM

seriously the amount hes charging is rediculous. only rich white bois with fantasy wish fulfillment can afford his extra long taichi classes and that is exactly who he was targeting. just another successful martial art scam

lol.

You may be right.

I wonder if they'll be able to fight afteward.

Lucas

01-15-2010, 04:37 PM

what i want to know is where did you get those emoticons!!!

they should be sleeping 5-6 hours if they want free time.

bawang

01-15-2010, 04:38 PM

I wonder if they'll be able to fight afteward.
no.

lololololol

IronFist

01-15-2010, 05:28 PM

what i want to know is where did you get those emoticons!!!

www.smiliesftw.com

Lucas

01-15-2010, 05:28 PM

www.smiliesftw.com

awesome thanks!

bawang

01-15-2010, 05:29 PM

http://smiliesftw.com/x/fiona.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

taai gihk yahn

01-15-2010, 05:38 PM

baby bawang...

http://smiliesftw.com/x/o6iors5ags0t2o5kpfrf.gif

YouKnowWho

01-15-2010, 05:52 PM

$100 thousand for 10 years, that's $10 thousand per year, and that's $833.33 per month. Where can you live in US for $833.33 per month that include room, board, and training? Will you be able to find 1 bedroom apartment for $833.33 a month if you live in California?

taai gihk yahn

01-15-2010, 05:58 PM

bawang

01-15-2010, 06:10 PM

yeah

since they arent working they have to have 100k up front cash

Lucas

01-15-2010, 06:19 PM

this is me doing kungfu. its wing chun :D

http://smiliesftw.com/x/retard,dance.gif

Lucas

01-15-2010, 06:25 PM

rare footage of me and bawang in a challenge match. i lost but its ok cuz he spit in my eye

http://smiliesftw.com/x/ninjabattle.gif

David Jamieson

01-16-2010, 10:27 AM

http://smiliesftw.com/x/kj.gif

bwahahahaha

IronFist

01-16-2010, 12:38 PM

Glad you guys like that site

http://smiliesftw.com/x/undefinedmindedissupergay.png

Drake

01-16-2010, 03:49 PM

Bawang must be my spirit brother.

My best training ever received was in this guy's backyard. He was brutal, we trained late as hell, and I never left without some sort of pain. He wasn't kind at all, and when he finally let me advance a level, I had to take my advancement paper from him, which hurt even more. Sry, Bawang... we were both white guys.

Later, when I started studying from others, it was forms forms forms, and random weird stuff. I've lost my edge as a result.

You don't need $100k for good training. Some of the best teachers either don't charge a dime, or charge a reasonable amount so they can keep the school running and make a living.

GeneChing

02-02-2010, 02:50 PM

Dr. Yang is on the cover and he discusses his retreat center.

A Commitment to Preserve the Art by me in our March April 2010 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=877).

YMAA_com

10-08-2010, 08:42 AM

Its been a while since there was an update on this project, and I see a few misunderstandings in here.

I'll be brief.

SCHEDULE
The training routine at the Center is 6 days a week, and it changes each semester. It is also flexible, and based around the talents, limitations, and skill of each student. They are allowed whatever rest needed to be in top form, within the usual standard of traditional Chinese kung fu study.

The 10-year program started Sept 2008. The first two years were just body conditioning. Now they are getting into techniques. They also teach classes locally and some assist with seminars all Summer, if they choose to stay rather than go home for Summer.

They will learn Dr Yang's complete knowledge, and will have guest instructors of other styles in the later years of the program. Aside from kung fu, they learn Chinese language, weapons, caligraphy, music, and more.

MONEY
Dr. Yang conceived of the project years ago, and we started building it in 2005. After his three kids graduated school, he moved out West and put the rest of his life savings into the land, building a road, digging a well, getting solar power, insurance, all kinds of legal fees in the process of getting accredited as a learning institution. All very expensive. He personally has no savings whatsoever, not that its any of our business. The project is barely breaking even each year. He is NOT making millions, or even thousands in profit.

The accounting for a nonprofit is VERY strict, and every cent goes back into the Center so it may function in perpetuity.

And more to the point regarding money, he is 65. He has outlived his father by many years. He will be happy to survive to see the end of the program, and see some high-quality graduated students to continue preserving the traditional arts. That is all. The guy teaches 364 days a year, starting at 5am, often til 10pm. He does this out of respect for his own sifu, and his love of the arts.

He would have loved to semi-retire at 65 and travel and teach less, but he cannot afford to.

At the end of the 10-year program, it is planned that another similar nonprofit program will begin for the next generation.

I assure you there is no money to be made in publishing, especially in-depth traditional martial arts books and videos. It is a break-even scenario that can employ 4 people annually at the most, with modest salary.

The entire place is run by volunteers, including the fundraising. At first, we tried finding a few big donors, to support 10 students for 10 years, which we estimated at $500,000 or more. We have found a few great annual donors who have made the whole thing possible, but for the most part, the fundraising has become much more grassroots, and we get by with $25 donations, and have stopped looking for large donors. Although that would've made the whole thing a lot easier.

His original intention was raise outside funds, and take $ out of the teacher/student relationship as it was with his own teacher.

# of STUDENTS
We went through about 150 serious applications, and of these, there were about 25 real contenders for the program, some of whom who had the support of their parents, or some other means of participating. Of the ten selected, three have left. Seven remain, and there may be a 2nd round of students added in 2013, if the funding is available, for a 5-year program. Dr Yang personally funded three of the students, who had no financial support.

With food, insurance and travel/VISA, it costs about $10,000 per student annually. Cheaper than college, and way cooler. Several of them are already excellent teachers.

SEE FOR YOURSELF
There are seminars all Summer, and anyone can come to join the training any time, year-round.

Details, including financial reporting, seminar schedules, curriculum, details about visiting, photos, videos, student blogs, can all be found at http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org

Come visit! Its very nice up there, inexpensive, great training with people from around the world, and the best food you'll ever eat.

(again, this is not spam. I am not inviting an attack. Just answering questions about the project. Peace.)

Scott R. Brown

10-08-2010, 09:58 AM

YMAA,

You did an excellent job explaining the program. Thank you for taking the time. Presuming everything you said is true, and there is no reason to believe it is not, Dr. Yang is to be admired. I am sure many of us would've likeed this kind of opportunity when we were younger!:)

Faruq

10-08-2010, 03:10 PM

Man, I can think of some other legendary teachers I wish would've done this as well. Dr Yang Is an incredible man.

PalmStriker

10-08-2010, 07:15 PM

Have a number of Dr. Yang's training volumes, following his work when he was still an engineer in Texas. Quite humble and 'way knowledgeable. Many thanks for his contribution to TCMA. :)

Violent Designs

10-08-2010, 08:00 PM

Wow, the program seems absolutely ridiculous (not in a bad way).

10 years is a long time. I wonder if it will truly take that long to impart the necessary knowledge.

IronFist

10-09-2010, 01:38 AM

Whoa, I remember this thread! I started it 4 years ago. lol.

lkfmdc

10-09-2010, 06:49 AM

Whoa, I remember this thread! I started it 4 years ago. lol.

and, after a YEAR of no activity, our friend with the multiple personalities came and raised it from the dead and then just disappeared :rolleyes:

SPJ

10-09-2010, 07:42 AM

SPJ

10-09-2010, 07:46 AM

specialization

1. archery. 10 years of shooting arrows only and nothing else.

2. horse riding--

oops,

that was and still is the olympic persuits

3, running,

4 swimming

---

I like the idea of kung fu retreat but may be at shorter interval.

a lot of people may not do it for 10 years en bloc and nothing else.

I think in 2012, China will send tai kong naut/ren on the moon.

:D

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2010, 01:25 PM

and, after a YEAR of no activity, our friend with the multiple personalities came and raised it from the dead and then just disappeared :rolleyes:

Just like maaaaAAAAAaaaaaaagic!!!!:eek:

Violent Designs

10-09-2010, 02:06 PM

10 years. it is only arbitray time frame.

granted that Kung fu is a life long persuit, but usually started at younger age.

for some people with physical talents, 10 years are not necessary.

for people with "hurdles", 10 years may not be enough.

so how high a mountain may be called high? tai shan, hua shan, huang shan or himalaya?

how deep a pond may be called deep?

how good a cave may be called good?

if the mountain is high enough that gods or fairies may live on the top, it is high enough and may be called spiritual mountains or ling shan.

if the pond/lake is deep enough that a dragon may dwell in it. it is deep enough.

if the cave is good enough that a tiger or bear lives in it, it is good enough.

1. central kuoshu guan in nanjing, I think it is only 2 years programs.

2. shuai jiao/qin na are 6 to 10 months in a 2 year or 4 year central police academy/university (taiwan).

---

so the question is that 10 years long enough for you or not?

:rolleyes:

NO, IMO it is too long.

To be honest if you just wanna be a fighter...

Train 6-days a week 4-5 hours a day at a MMA gym, Muay Thai gym, etc.

If you want "specialized" training then save some cash and go to Thailand, Netherlands (Dutch MT), China (Sanda), or where ever.

You can probably get better fighting training in three months in Thailand than this program in an entire year, if you go to a hardcore no-nonsense gym like Kaewsamrit.

Another issue is training partners. If you just train, spar with the same other 9 people all year long for 10 years then, well, you will be so used to those guys and their movement. I know they bring in external students but do they actually spar together or just do forms together? That's the important thing.

MartialDev

10-10-2010, 01:48 PM

I expect they would have more interest if they promoted 2- and 4- year programs.

bawang

10-10-2010, 04:23 PM

their website says almost all quit in the first year

yang jwing ming trolled them in real life

YMAA_com

10-13-2010, 06:07 AM

It is a 10-year program because when Dr. Yang was a teenager, that was still considered the bare minimum that one could train with a master and learn the style. His white crane master lived and trained with his own master for 24 years. He could kick the bark off a tree.

The intention of the Retreat Center is to raise the standard of traditional Chinese martial arts training to that of ancient times.

We are not looking to appeal to a wide audience and get a larger response. We searched for a few exceptional individuals who are willing to put in the time/effort.

Bawang - you are wrong.

"their website says almost all quit in the first year
yang jwing ming trolled them in real life"

Out of eleven 1st-year students, four have left. One trial-student never got his VISA worked out and had to leave the country.

One quit after the first year. Life on the mountain was not for him.

One got into a car accident during his Summer break and has permanent spine damage.

And one recently was sick for months on end, and decided to leave to study TCM instead.

Others will leave, and a few will succeed. We know this. Get your facts straight when disparaging my teacher. He's a good guy.
Videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/YMAARetreatCenter)

SPJ

10-13-2010, 07:26 AM

does that mean

4 opening slots may be filled by new applicants.

even thou they may start a year late, they may also finish 10 years programs a year later.

:)

GeneChing

10-13-2010, 09:53 AM

The proof is in the pudding, as they say....perhaps 'in the print' is a better way to put it. We just published another article by one of Dr. Yang's disciples. See The Importance of Breathing in Martial Arts By Jáchym Jerie in our 2010 November/December issue. (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=923)

David Jamieson

10-13-2010, 11:03 AM

YouKnowWho

10-13-2010, 04:45 PM

My friend told me that it will take 10 years of gradulate school work to get a computer science PhD degree from the Stanford University.

If you started your CMA training when you were

- 5 years old, the 1st year of your elementary school (1th grade), 6 years of grade school + 3 years of junior high + 1 year of senior high, you will only be 15 years old after 10 years of CMA training.

- 11 years old, the 1st year of your junior high (7th grade), 3 years of junior high + 3 years of senior high + 4 years of college will make exactly 10 years. You will be only 21 years old.

10 years may sound like a long time, but whether we train or not, that 10 years will pass by anyway. It's better to get something out of those 10 years than nothing at all.

bawang

10-13-2010, 06:02 PM

im paying 5 thousand a year for college tuiotion. this guy is charging 10 thousand a year to teach something farmers did for fun
i been awake 48 hours doing lab assignment nonstop. kung fu training is nowhere at same level

SPJ

10-13-2010, 07:44 PM

10 years is figurative. just means many and many years.

10 also means perfect.

such as double 10 or double perfects October 10th

and this year is triple 10, Oct. 10, 2010.

many chinese young couples around the world sealed their marriages on this triple perfect day.

just saying the obvious.

10 years means a very and very long time.

:)

Knifefighter

10-13-2010, 08:08 PM

Whoever started this whole "retreat" has zero business sense. I can see why he has no savings. When the place finally folds, which it will, he will have less than zero savings.

PalmStriker

10-13-2010, 08:32 PM

David Jamieson

10-13-2010, 08:43 PM

Dr. Ming is being very 'Shaolin'. Personally I do not consider 25 years to be too long to learn a style such as that being taught. Monk's are not concerned with striped belts and degrees, trophies or plaques. If you look at Ming's body of work to date you will understand his credentials in the International Kung Fu Community.

He has translated a lot of other people's books into english. That is good.

I don't consider 25 years too long to practice a style, but to learn it?
Heck I don't think a lifetime is too long to practice.

I believe his surname is Yang and not Ming.

lkfmdc

10-13-2010, 08:59 PM

So, according to Yang, you NEED 10 years to learn long fist? ...........

hmmmmmmmm

mooyingmantis

10-13-2010, 09:17 PM

10 years is a ridiculous amount of time to learn a style, any style.

Because he learned that way doesn't make it the right way.

Not to be disparaging, I just don't agree with the premise or a method that takes 10 years out of someones life.

Continued practice? sure, 10 years no problem the rest of your life? no problem. 10 years to learn a kung fu style?

Rubbish. I can be a brain surgeon in less time.

To elevate martial arts to this level is absolutely absurd.

Ten years barely scratches the surface in some styles. Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and Praying Mantis have very large curriculums. Now add to that the things Sifu Yang is also offering: Chinese language, music and philosophy.

He appears to be creating well-rounded individuals, not the superficial students most schools put out.

I applaud his efforts!

David Jamieson

10-13-2010, 09:29 PM

Ten years barely scratches the surface in some styles. Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and Praying Mantis have very large curriculums. Now add to that the things Sifu Yang is also offering: Chinese language, music and philosophy.

He appears to be creating well-rounded individuals, not the superficial students most schools put out.

I applaud his efforts!

I think that we go deeper, but to acquire a system doesn't take ten years. Unless you are a very lazy person or have no practice ethic.

Yes, 10 years in, you really get deeper understanding of a given style, even robust systems. But to learn them? The law of diminishing returns will kick in long before ten years is up unless you are being taught only forms and learning one move a week. Which would be weird.

On average, fairly robust styles can be learned in 3 to 5 years and mastered in 10. At least, as I see guys in practice, that's basically how it goes. Yes, there will always be a segment of folks who lack the drive and commitment and take forever to learn 3 moves and get the same lesson oevr and over again. But lets say, those folk don't actually count when it comes to the actual art form.

As far as results, that remains to be seen. So far people are quitting it seems.

Knifefighter

10-13-2010, 09:33 PM

GeneChing

10-14-2010, 10:12 AM

I was at the first disciple ceremony (see Dr. Yang and his Disciples in our 2009 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797)). It's a full discipleship in a very traditional sense. Dr. Yang is teaching his disciples everything he can - kung fu, Mandarin, writing, even cooking. Over the last two years, we've published articles from several of his disciples. When I get a chance, I'll list them. And a few of them showed up for our tournament this year (see Tiger Claw's 2nd KungFuMagazine.com Championship and 7th Shark City Nationals (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56385)). They looked strong, all turning in some excellent traditional demonstrations. Scan our webcast on KFM (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/info/tournament/index.php) or YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/KungfuMagazinedotcom) and there might be some clips (note that we are transferring our webcast to YouTube right now, a few a day, so it's not all up there at this posting).

Miranda is in the heart of California's Avenue of Giants. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world. I may try to retire near there. I envy Dr. Yang's disciples - to be able to train full-time in such a beautiful mountain setting is a real privilege. Whether it succeeds or fails, I salute the experiment.

SPJ

10-14-2010, 10:23 AM

much envy

I only have the space on the drive road in front of my house. now that more SUV and big trucks taking up of space, it is not safe to practice any more.

I do live near laguna beach, but it is 15 min drive.

the parking meter went up to 2 $ per hour.

so now I go to park and practice on trails that are part of natural preserve.

we do what we can.

there are a lot of bugs in the trail, bug spray is a must.

---

:o

YMAA_com

10-15-2010, 07:13 AM

yada yada. Correction, there is no "income" for anyone. Annual expense of $10,000 is food, insurance, operating costs, VISA/legal fees in some cases.

There may be a 2013 recruitment of students for a 5-year program.

Here's the curriculum:10-year curriculum (http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org/about/curriculum)

Detail in left column.

lkfmdc

10-15-2010, 07:15 AM

David Jamieson

10-15-2010, 07:17 AM

Included in your registration

http://www.jonathanscatering.com/content/image002.jpg

alright, can you set it up in florida on some other recently purchased property?

SPJ

10-15-2010, 07:50 AM

for most people one tenth of the classtime is sufficed

staff 1000 hours may be reduced to 100 hours etc

you may train astronaut or fighter pilots with less time than 10 years

but combat time is accummulated.

900 hours of staff fighting/sparring are accumulated.

etc etc

When i was in high school, there was only 1 hour per week for staff/sword instruction. and of course, I practice by myself and with friends on our own time every day. so practice time is more than instruction time.

just awed by the instruction time.

:eek:

Violent Designs

10-15-2010, 07:51 AM

depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

bawang

10-15-2010, 08:05 AM

this is hypocracy he doesnt take students by merit he takes them by size of their wallet. and he teach martial morality. what a anusbutt.

Lucas

10-15-2010, 08:09 AM

Do any of the diciples have a desire to use their training for a professional fighting career after they finish the program?

bawang

10-15-2010, 08:12 AM

lol look at the curriculum. form form form form forms. at year 5 u get to learn the deadly bagua and xingyi katas roffles

GeneChing

10-15-2010, 10:28 AM

$10K per year equals $833 1/3 a month. That's for room, board and lessons. I wish I could just get my mortgage down to that little per month, never mind my food bills.

I don't think any of the disciples aspire to be professional fighters, Lucas. I think they are all just looking to preserve traditional kung fu. There's been a lot of discussion about sparring and traditional kung fu here lately. If your only barometer for the validity of martial arts is sparring, well, that's fine. Others don't use the same measuring stick. I did my best to capture Dr. Yang's opinion on the matter in our Mar/Apr cover story this year (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=877), The Commitment to Preserving the Art (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=887). His analogy to of traditional martial arts to classical music gets to the heart of the matter. Most don't have the time to commit to that, so they toss out all that cultural baggage baby with the bathwater and just use what's effective 'on the street'. It's a lot like pop musicians today who never really learn their instruments. Can Lady Gaga really play piano? Actually she can, but she's no Lang Lang. I've always treasured martial arts for its diversity. There's a place for both the classical and the modern.

bawang

10-15-2010, 10:38 AM

ok man if thats small monies u give me 100k for ten years and i go to kung fu retreat and spend 100k.

SPJ

10-15-2010, 10:47 AM

group efforts are always better than one instructor only

staff course

sword course

compiled by a committe of several good instructors.

that is why we have many professors in the department and many more in the university

not the principle, instructor, teaching assistant are all the same person

or one man show.

chinese taught by chinese literature Phd

history by chinese history professor

cooking taught by the chef's from southern, northern cuisine, moslem, mongolian cuisines

calligraphy and chinese brush painting by a teacher that has MA degree in the field

etc etc

lkfmdc

10-15-2010, 10:49 AM

group efforts are always better than one instructor only

Ancient Chinese wisdom tells us

"it is better to play with a group than play with yourself"

KC Elbows

10-15-2010, 10:52 AM

Ancient Chinese wisdom tells us

"it is better to play with a group than play with yourself"

Says a guy surfing the net.

SPJ

10-15-2010, 10:54 AM

yes

3 stinky leather ware makers will outwit 1 zhu ge liang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PpshbjsUSU

there are many singing groups in a variety show.

:)

lkfmdc

10-15-2010, 10:54 AM

Says a guy surfing the net.

says the guy waiting online for the guy surfing the net to post so he can post in response

Faruq

10-15-2010, 11:00 AM

says the guy waiting online for the guy surfing the net to post so he can post in response

Doesn't like Pak Mei Pai take like 10 yrs to master? I thought 10 years was the generally accepted time for a disciple to master a system, especially since students in martial arts schools can spend 15 - 20 yrs there without ever mastering their system.

GeneChing

10-15-2010, 11:00 AM

Was that just an "I know you are but what am I?" riposte? :p

Discipleship is a lifelong undertaking. The 10-year program is just the beginning.

lkfmdc

10-15-2010, 11:04 AM

Discipleship is a lifelong undertaking.

But 15 minutes can save you 15% on your car insurance

GeneChing

10-15-2010, 11:09 AM

I dislike geckos.

lkfmdc

10-15-2010, 11:10 AM

I dislike geckos.

right now, a lizard is calling up to cancel his subscription to the magazine :mad:

SPJ

10-15-2010, 11:12 AM

I do not like the music of lady gaga

but this orange is even more annoying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3WPKznFvfk&feature=related

:D

SPJ

10-15-2010, 11:14 AM

I like lady ye ye so much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pldunZJqPI

:cool:

David Jamieson

10-15-2010, 11:15 AM

yes

3 stinky leather ware makers will outwit 1 zhu ge liang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PpshbjsUSU

there are many singing groups in a variety show.

:)

That was great!

GeneChing

10-15-2010, 11:17 AM

Don't put me in that position. It's hard enough keeping a print magazine on the newsstands, never mind that its CMA and we never ever ever spar... ever...:rolleyes:

lkfmdc

10-15-2010, 11:19 AM

Don't put me in that position. It's hard enough keeping a print magazine on the newsstands,

I think you should sell stone monuments outside the corp office to local martial arts schools. You know "official KF magazine stone monuments" naming them 34th gneration magazine subscribers ;)

YouKnowWho

10-18-2010, 01:11 AM

my teacher.
Please tell your teacher that his Longfist brother 王世元(Wang Shih-Yaun) say Hi and wish him well. I can't believe that last time when I met him in Boston was about 30 years ago.

I'm sure you can recognize my Longfist teacher in this picture.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c6810c33be.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

SPJ

10-18-2010, 07:23 AM

Please tell your teacher that his Longfist brother 王世元(Wang Shih-Yaun) say Hi and wish him well. I can't believe that last time when I met him in Boston was about 30 years ago.

I'm sure you can recognize my Longfist teacher in this picture.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c6810c33be.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

cool pix.

history and collectible.

:cool:

David Jamieson

10-18-2010, 07:43 AM

haggled fiercely with me 15 years ago over a few $ on some books he was trying to fire-sale at a tournament...

Once a friend of mine engaged him with a question about a book and was subsequently inundated with numerous business propositions to host seminars for him up here and at my friends expense and time.

I would reiterate, that Yang can do as he likes and can service his business and his art in his own way. He's entitled to that. I think he's a business man first though. I think he likes the master/student monkish get away idea and due to the gross naivete of so many, he has found a way to capitalize on it.

so good for him, I would hope that the batches of people he runs through his getaway, get something of value out of it. Even if it opens there eyes a little.

SPJ

10-18-2010, 10:09 AM

10 years of schooling or training programs are certainly admirable.

but the fortitudes and perseverance are from the students for the most part.

self motivation is the key.

"if you are curious, that is not enough."

"you have to have genuine interests, to persevere and then to excel (or to get good)."

quotes from one of my teachers.

---

PRC wushu programs are from 5-6 years old to 15 to 16 years old.

Jet Li competed and won wushu GAMES at age of 13.

-----

RANDOM THOUGHTS ABOUT 10 YEARS OF ENDEAVOUR

:D

YMAA_com

10-19-2010, 03:22 AM

王世元 (Wang Shih-Yaun), you should come up and visit!

location (http://ymaa-retreatcenter.org/about/map)

YouKnowWho

10-19-2010, 03:53 AM

Thanks for the invitation. I may drop by next time I go to Redwood Forest National Park through Eureka (I live in Shell Beach near San Luis Obispo, Ca) if it will be OK with Dr. Yang.

sanjuro_ronin

10-19-2010, 06:12 AM

Doesn't like Pak Mei Pai take like 10 yrs to master? I thought 10 years was the generally accepted time for a disciple to master a system, especially since students in martial arts schools can spend 15 - 20 yrs there without ever mastering their system.

I don't think you can put a time frame on "mastering" anything.
But what makes any system so inferior that it takes YEARS to be able to use if effectively?
I mean, people are using boxing, MT MMA, judo, kyokushin, etc, in months and in 3 years ( for example) the vast majority that do it regualrly can do it very well, certainly well enough to "fight with".

David Jamieson

10-19-2010, 08:16 AM

I don't think you can put a time frame on "mastering" anything.
But what makes any system so inferior that it takes YEARS to be able to use if effectively?
I mean, people are using boxing, MT MMA, judo, kyokushin, etc, in months and in 3 years ( for example) the vast majority that do it regualrly can do it very well, certainly well enough to "fight with".

well...lol, actually after much study and some social experimentation, Malcolm Gladwell (and others upon whoes shoulders he stood) has actually put a time frame on mastery.

in the end, it's about 10,000 hours of dedicated practice.
or, 10 years in most cases.

Check out his books, they are quite good, well written and really well worked through. Admirable for articulating thoughts that otherwise wouldn't be.

Mutant

10-19-2010, 09:32 AM

Agree with Mr. Jamieson on that (love the Gladwell reference, big fan myself), you may be functional and even proficient in three years in the arts discussed but no where near mastery in that time frame. gotta put your 10000 hours (thats all lol) in to be in that league.

sanjuro_ronin

10-19-2010, 10:11 AM

well...lol, actually after much study and some social experimentation, Malcolm Gladwell (and others upon whoes shoulders he stood) has actually put a time frame on mastery.

in the end, it's about 10,000 hours of dedicated practice.
or, 10 years in most cases.

Check out his books, they are quite good, well written and really well worked through. Admirable for articulating thoughts that otherwise wouldn't be.

How about if I am doubly dedicated? LOL !"
Dude, I have a welding company, we do pressure vessels and pressure piping systems for steam and petrochemical, the welding is ASME hi pressure welding and every time I need to hire a welder I always get in quite a few people, all very qualififed over 10 15 tears and sometimes more and that is usually A LOT more than 10k hours in 10 years, double is more like it.
They all get shocked when they have to do a welders test and I can tell you this:
The majority FAIL it, yep, you heard me, FAIL the basic ASME welders test.
The last guy we have the passed it was a kid with only 5 years welding and only 3 under the ASME code.
He was by far, more of a "master" then any of those guys that were welding for far longer than he had been.

Mutant

10-19-2010, 12:27 PM

Not everyone can even get to that level even if its 20 years, and many people put in lots of years, but without truly putting in the focused hours and may lack the prerequisite natural abilities. And then there's the prodigy scenario, but even they've got to put significant time in and still may take the 10000 hrs to truly be a 'master' of their craft.

Faruq

10-24-2010, 07:34 PM

How about if I am doubly dedicated? LOL !"
Dude, I have a welding company, we do pressure vessels and pressure piping systems for steam and petrochemical, the welding is ASME hi pressure welding and every time I need to hire a welder I always get in quite a few people, all very qualififed over 10 15 tears and sometimes more and that is usually A LOT more than 10k hours in 10 years, double is more like it.
They all get shocked when they have to do a welders test and I can tell you this:
The majority FAIL it, yep, you heard me, FAIL the basic ASME welders test.
The last guy we have the passed it was a kid with only 5 years welding and only 3 under the ASME code.
He was by far, more of a "master" then any of those guys that were welding for far longer than he had been.

Sounds like those veterans can't pass that test, but that doesn't mean they're not master welders. Just means they haven't been studying in trade school for 10 to 15 or more years and have forgotten the stuff the fresh kid had last studied only 5 years ago. Now that's just what it sounds like, of course I'm no welder, and you own a welding company. But to give an example of something in a field I am familiar with, how many of us here on the forum are perfectly fluent in English but if we went to our kids' high school English class (or college English class for that matter) would get an A on a standard English test they happened to be giving the day we showed up. I mean how many of expressed every idea we needed to in English and got along fine pretty much every day using English (substitute native language for those raised in another country), but didn't get straight A's in English? My point, I think the 10 years do give the ability to use a skill effectively, whether a test can be passed or not. Just my opinion though, of course.