denigrating Park's Ba Gua

[Guandi]

Go to

http://pages.zdnet.com/niwah64/Ba-GuaZhang/id20.html

and read

The Interview part II

He (the blacktaoist) is denigrating Park' Ba Gua and is ablity as a teacher. What do you think of this?

Guandi

[dwid]

But he often makes some good points. Here, he's just speaking his opinion and relating what he was told. Big deal.

Park has a lot of students that are part of study groups that only train with him a few times a year. These people will never achieve a high level. If they're the ones Blacktaoist saw, I understand how they performed poorly. I have nothing against Park personally, as I've never trained with him, but It's his own fault if people see how his students perform and judge him accordingly.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

[blacktaoist]

Guandi,

As you know I don’t even post up here. One of my friends email me your response. Let me set the record straight for you…

I don’t care what people think because I only speak truth not lies. I touch with Park’s so called advanced students. I’m not going by what other people have told me – I’ve touched with his students. I have nothing against Park personally but if he is going to around claiming that other Pa Kua practitioners is not good shouldn’t his students and study groups be good? In his book, he states that most practitioners don’t know how to use Pa Kua effectively. The bottom line is (my opinion as many others but I speak for myself on this topic) Park students don’t have real fighting skills isn’t a student a reflection of his teacher? I’ve seen one of his students on a videotape – Glen Moore – fat and out of shape – the man can barely move. I’ve seen some of his students compete in New Jersey. The worst thing of all I’ve met some of his students from New Jersey. They were nice guys but when it came to skills they didn’t have anything – NO BRIDGE, NO POWER, THEY HAD NOTHING. I’m not trying to start any problems but I’m keeping it real. I have no problem with anyone coming to see me because I don’t talk ****. I can back my **** up believe me. Believe me, I train in Pa Kua for one thing – unrehearsed fighting and I deal with real masters. If we want to really get raw – they are not doing Yin style. Its Pa Kua but its not Yin and that’s a fact. The fact is – most of Park’s students can’t fight. It’s all hype, I want someone from his camp prove me wrong. In fact, he has supposed to have high level students in the NJ and NY area – one guy is supposed be able to shoot 11 palms in one second. I would like to see that.

theblacktaoist

"Keep the Tao real even when it's controversial"

[Guandi]

Dear blacktaoist

>I have nothing against Park personally but if he
>is going to around claiming that other Pa Kua
>practitioners is not good shouldn’t his students
>and study groups be good?

I am on your side with this!

>I’ve seen one of his students on a videotape –
>Glen Moore – fat and out of shape – the man can
>barely move.

I have never seen him move, but I must admit that at least on some pictures I saw, he did not make a good figure -- in my opinion.

Have anyone on this board here experienced him -- beside his students?

Guandi

[Water Dragon]

You might be wrong on this one. The question you need to ask before casting these accustions is simple.

Is Park claiming the students, or are the students claiming Park.

It doesn't matter how terrible somone is if they are claiming Park as a teacher. He needs to claim them for any of this to be valid.

But then, you probably already know this.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Crimson Phoenix]

You know BT, I'm not surprised at all...I began bagua only a year ago...I study bagua xingyi, Zhang Zhao Dong lineage....one year is nothing, I consider myself an almost total beginner...but it has always struck me how in the books about Park I would come across it was totally opposite to what my sifu teaches me...I mean, I was looking at the picture and was wondering "isn't the line broken here?" I could picture my own sifu say "here it is broken, here, too much squatting, weight is not on the right tendon, joints are closed"...I was telling myself that I was nothing so I should shut up, that it was because I was a beginner and didn't understand everything etc...
Happy to see that I wasn't totally out of way and that you share these remarks to a certain extent...

Phoenix

[wujidude]

Welcome back, Novell. Sounds like you had a very fruitful journey to Beijing. I'm hoping with your new connections you'll make many more such trips. I'd like to see a lot more attention paid to Yin Fu's heritage in our country, and you're bringing back some great material.

You know that some people will be looking at your interview and statements and be thinking it's all marketing. Truth is, you are marketing . . . to raise the standard of bagua practice and awareness of Yin Fu/Ma Gui's martial arts. People will be thinking yeah so he went to Beijing for two weeks and now he comes back and casts aspersions on most of the baguazhang in America, including a number of people he's never actually met or practiced with (like Glen Moore). Well, you sure aren't shy about stirring up a big pot.

Park made the same kind of wholesale criticisms when he was working up his baguazhang school back in the early 90s, with the help of Dan Miller's books and videotapes. Your Chinese mentors are doing the same thing, watching videotapes of American practitioners and teachers and making wholesale judgments without actually having seen their teaching or sparred with them. You know full well you can't credibly judge internal martial arts skills from watching the externals on videotape. You actually have to get out there and see them move in realtime and then mix it up with them. But I guess in building your market you have to try to make use of all the tools available to you, including Internet forums like this.

I'd like to see you succeed in bringing true quality Yin Fu baguazhang to a wider and more dedicated group of practitioners in the U.S. My own thought is that you'll have more success attracting dedicated students in the long run by focusing on the quality of your own training and emphasizing important points like daily basics practice, rather than slinging **** at all the other bagua traditions and teachers in our country.

People who are serious about learning true martial arts will be intelligent enough to make the comparison. They don't need to hear a kettle whistling to know your water's hot (where the hell that metaphor came from I don't know).

I'm glad you and your group are back. I for one will be paying attention.

[Stai-Nyce]

I am one of Novell's students, I have been studying for a little over 2 years and I was there when three of Parks' students came to check us out. I dont want to turn this into a Park bashing episode cause i don't know the man, never
met him ect. but Those three students who were claiming to be parks students had a whole lot to say about everything.
One example: Novell was trying to explain to these guys what a "bridge" was and how it is used in combat. The guy was not convinced that it was pratical because he said if someone put their bridge out he was going to pivot and get a better angle to counter attack. Sounds good in theory,
when it came time for homeboy to apply all he had just said he was shocked at the fact he was hemmed up on the bench unable to move any part of his body to pivot and counter attack.
This is what Novell is talking about on a grander scale. These American Pa-Kua Masters will
will talk a good game but when it's time to apply all that talk, It just don't come out exactly how they planned.
By the way that day it was three of Parks students and three of Novells students.
We all had less experience in M/A than the people we were paired up against, and from what went down you would have thought it was the other way around. That is no disrespect to those cats They are all nice fellas they were just misled by someone claiming to teach them BaguaZhang.
And for Wuji dude:
"you'll have more success attracting dedicated students in the long run by focusing on the quality of your own training and emphasizing important points like daily basics practice"

That is all he does.
I must say.
:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

Comin from the school of hard knocks,,and spoutin ego all over the place.... from NY NEWWWWW YORRRKKK!!! what a disrespectful person that has polluted the internal portion of this forum. downing Master park and his students,,,,Pakua is more than fighting bro,,or are you so inept at comprehending an art that is a healing art. you know i can agree with you that most practicioners here in this country are not attuned with the fighting aspect..but not all people want to be GANGSTA Pakua MC FLASH AND DASH.
yo bro put yo balls back in yo pants and be internal for a change. :rolleyes:
MAny Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[virus fist]

BLACKTONGOIST

WHAT A PATETIC LOOSER YOU ARE.

Not only your mouth stinks more than Chinatown garbage but also your attitude and facts.

Those students that you met were NOT master Park,but from one of his instructor.

and so what,they are better than you,I have seen you move and fight and maybe that is SAN SHOU,but PA KUA,LOL,you wish.

When somebody like you that calls himself a "teacher"trashes the level of understanding of students of a Pa Kua System that you have no idea what it is,and you never met the teacher,not only is a shamefull act but also a sign of limitless stupidity.

You pass judgemt on Master Park System and teachings without ever seeing or meeting him in person?,your ignorance is overpowering.

Is not true,Master Park NEVER talk bad about anybodys PA Kua or any other MA,he says CMA is all same family,yes he says the level of skills is low here,and that is for all CMA,but he NEVER said anything bad about any particular teacher or school,if you ask him what does he think about this or that Pa Kua or teacher,he will tell you:

I don't know that PA Kua System or that MA or teacher to say anything,I can only talk about my PA KUA.

You can BS beginers with your story,but it is SO OVIOUS that you are trying to make a name for yourself by spreading false information and lies about Master Park, his students and other teachers.

If it bothers you so much the skills of Master Park students or instructors,you mention Glen Moore as been too fat,why don't you show up there in Virgina and taste some of his lard,

Naaahh..you are just barking and not bitting like a little toy dog.

You go to China for two weeks and voila...you found Nirvana,not only that,also a "master" that after seeing and beeing impressed by your dedication and drive, decides to make you his rep here,oohhh!!,how noble,LOL

I can see the picture...
The master, upon seeing BLACKTONGOIST perform,suddenly becomes agitated and starts salivating continuosly, overpowered by the sweet,irresistible dream inducing aroma of US Dollars,says to himself...
(MMMMHH... Here comes another stupid ass**** from America,I think I am going to make some money,yes sir).

Blacktongoist come here,only me and my friends can teach you the REAL thing,the rest forget it,they are not good,after all this is China,how can we teach you crap ,right?,

Yes,but Master just two weeks training and I can start geting students and promoting you?.

Yes,you learn very fast,you have good green power,you very good,I know secret training,trust me.

Thank you master,after all let me tell you something that is been bothering me for a long time.
One of the reasons that I came here ,is because due my big rotten mouth and attitude,after studying MA and PA Kua with many well known teachers in the US,all they showed me is basic stuff,no body want to teach me deep,do you think that if I come here ONCE or TWICE a year,I can learn REAL skills of Pa Kua and become your final disciple,please,please I beg you ,accept me,accept me.

Also,I am deseperatly trying to make a name for myself and believe me,try many things I did....figthing in tournaments,challenging other people(but not always showing up),critisizing other teachers and their students,posting on the internet and many other things that nobody should know,and yet,not many students,not fame,at all,why?,do you think I am a BIG MOUTH with a big EGO master?,

MMMHHHH!!!,right now big mouth and big ego ,are good.

Master, the market is there,think I need a new teacher, a new name,a new line....now if I could represent you perhaps....you and me...and yin fu Pa Kua could....

MMMMMHHH!!!..right!!.


Blacktongoist,since you have a new teacher,change your name,for if you are a taoist ,I am Dong Hai Chuan.

To show you your level of hipocresy, you wrote how much you respected Master Park not long ego and now I guess is not good for business,so here you are,how sad,how low.

My question to you is Why you picked him,there is something here that you are not telling,and I am going to find out.

My condolences to your students and I feel sorry for whoever your teacher is for having a student like you.

And yes,I know you are going to come back barking for a challenge,sure that will make you feel manly,but you know what,for me you don't even qulify as a spec of dust,and even if I fight you and win,still there is no gain for me.

How can I make you understand?,How can I change your brain if you have none.


VF.

VF.

[This message was edited by virus fist on 08-22-01 at 10:19 PM.]

[maoshan]

Yo Wujidude,

First, it was not just the two weeks, we’ve been to china before. In fact 3x prier to this. When we went it was to learn, we didn’t have a lot of money, again we’re from the ghetto. We didn’t go to get our picture taken with the first master we saw and come back to America to make a name off that that bullcrap. Again we went to learn. They liked us and they trust us. Why? Well one reason was because when we were out there we chilled in the Xuan Wu District of Beijing, to everyone else, that’s Beijing’s ghetto. We were in a place that even the Chinese are afraid to go. And had a good time and got mad respect because no forener would dare come there. You think Novell became his US rep with only a 2 week visit? Come on man, or are just trying to impress this image in the minds of the people that frequented this forum?
How do you think that the master came out to teach Novell if he didn‘t know him, we meet the last time we were there. you can’t just walk around and find a master. There are many frauds in Beijing. The deal is you have to be brought to the master. A proper introduction must be made. It killed me that I missed this trip. But I have the footage on tape so it’s all good. And I can go whenever I want to.
As far as marketing goes, what was written was on our sites. Not Kung fu online. It was for our people associated with us. In our community we are the voice of the internal, there is no one else of our level here to teach the truth. We’re not sipping tea and dancing around the circle discussing philosophy. With us we have always kept it real. And we get results. Park can’t say the same.
All of our students at least have some substance. If you don’t like what we put on our sites don’t go there. We don’t have a national publication, we only have our sites and there are millions of sites,
If you come to us then you choose to do that. Which we have no problem but don’t pop **** about what we do or say. It is for us.
And as far as marketing truly goes we don’t have to worry about that, Cream always rises to the top.
Now as far as watching video’s of people that have no skill goes, YES you can tell. I don’t have to touch hands with you to see you have no alignment or root. You don’t have to fight to see someone has no balance or is uncoordinated. We have been martial Artist for years. We didn’t start 2 weeks ago. We’ve learned from the middle aged to the very old. And all of these masters were able to get across to us what they were trying to teach. For a not quit middle aged practitioner not to be able to do what a man 20-25
Years older can do easily is a true testament of the quality of martial arts here in America. We’re here for Ba-Gua, we’ll get paid anyway because we’re teaching the real thing and we have people that expect certain things of us so we really have no choice but to teach the real.


<you'll have more success attracting dedicated students in the long run by focusing on the <quality of your own training and emphasizing important points like daily basics practice, <rather than slinging **** at all the other bagua traditions and teachers in our country.

First of all we’ve been doing that anyway, as you know, this is how we came on this forum. But the slinging, this needs to be done to expose the frauds and let the population know what’s up.
And we will continue to be as we are.
REAL TO THE CORE

DON”T TALK, PRACTICE!

Willow sword
First Ba-Gua is a Martial Art. The healing aspect is a side effect. The scholars are the ones that jumped on that.
2nd, parks students came as martial artist and were dealt with as such.
And what’s with the gangsta crap? we’re fighters. Do you call boxers Gangstas? or what about tai boxers?, how about wrestlers ?
What are you saying, You talk like a wimp trying to be hard with a strong base. It’s a contradiction.

Virus fist
You’ve just made it very clear that you are a student of parks
Oh here we go again. Yo virus, you claim to have seen the Taoist fight and you say it was not ba-gua but maybe san shou. that’s what you saw stupid.

<When somebody like you that calls himself a "teacher” trashes the level of understanding <of students of a Pa Kua System that you have no idea what it is, and you never met the <teacher

BT: if your getting beat up like that I don’t want to know.
Maoshan: What do you mean we don’t know what it is, he claims to be teaching YIN FU BA-GUA ZHANG. That is what we do.
I’ve trained with park twice in the late 80’s He does not teach Yin style. He couldn’t stand with my late sifu Kenny Gong. Your young virus. at least in this art, you better get some real history and stop Hero worshiping.

BT: yo Vagina,
Your just a punk, I’ve seen you before having arguments with people before. If you’ve seen me fight that just goes to prove that you’re a punk.
Maoshan: Yeah why didn’t you make your self known. With all the junk we talk.
BT:You don’t know **** about me. So your words have no substance. As I said before and I’ll say it again. None of Parks students have any skill. Then you have the audacity to say I don’t know what I’m looking at. Oh I know what I’m looking at you don’t know what your learning. basic Xing-I foot work no that’s not correct it’s just bad ***boxing foot work. Now let me get technical on your*** None of you people knows anything about push hands how can you be doing ba-gua. without roushou how the hell do you apply the Bagua principles of wrapping, coiling, spiraling, Hooking ,locking, or parrying. Man I was doing Ba-Gua when you were in diapers.Your a disease and you need to die just like your system but pardon me ya’ll don’t even know what lineage your from.
Maoshan: What you don’t understand is that we haven’t paid a dime in so long for any instruction. They give it to us. their payment is our work. Virus you’re a wannabe and that’s all you’ll ever be. I’ve said enough.

BT: the problem is I speak reality I don’t live in a fantasy land thinking that I can hit a melon a and make it soft or say that I can hit someone 30x in a minute. If you believe that, I think you boys need to call” riply’s believe it or not.”

You can BS beginners with your story, but it is SO OVIOUS that you are trying to make a name for yourself by spreading false information and lies about Master Park, his students and other teachers.

As far as making a name for myself I’m already known I have nothing to prove to you or anybody else. I mean your not putting any money in my pocket. As far as parks students go I have witnesses which you’ve just seen above I have no problem coming over to your NJ school. Because the result would be the same. You talk mad **** virus. Why don’t you step up to the plate. After all you were supposed to have seen me already But I already know who you are. Of course your just like the rest of these guys you changed identities that’s what an internet warrior does. How would you know that they were from the NJ school, that these where students of parks student unless you were the guy in had hemmed up on the bench. Bottom line I don’t need Ba-Gua to fight any of parks students. I put this challenge out to you and your whole bogus ba0-Gua Crew. I’ll fight any of parks students any of them and use straight up san shou on them. Because as I said before e none of you have no real skill. And I know many people who’ve trained with park and said the same thing. It was a waist of their time. If you want to fight I”ll meet you or come to your little NJK school with my crew and we can do this and if you don’t want to do it on this line than e-mail me. Or meet me at the WONG FEI HONG SEP 29 SIFU Cepeda knows me very well.
And as far as slandering other teachersi only slandered fakes.
But you tried to slander my sifu biting of our interview.
One thing I can say about my teacher. They didn’t pay to getthier names on DONG Hai Chuans Tomb because of a big donation he gave. I’ll break you down like I did your classmate 8 immortal
Your other classmate Mike, and your other classmate Mark I know your One of them. All of your schools are wack.
Enough said
I’m not a politician im a fighter. Be a man and step up to the plate.

Maoshan: Alright virus fist what’s it gonna be, we don’t want to talk let’s just make it happen.
But ion truth you really don’t want to go to war the casualties on your side will be quit high.

Maoshan

[Guandi]

>How do you think that the master came out to
>teach Novell if he didn‘t know him, we meet the
>last time we were there.

Even if it was the second or maybe the third visit, it is still very, very, short for becoming a representative. Far to short in my opinion.

>If you don’t like what we put on our sites don’t
>go there. We don’t have a national publication,
>we only have our sites and there are millions of
>sites

hey you wrote there not just about your trip but you denigrated all Ba Gua teachers and practioners in america that give everyone the right to step in an comment on what you wrote. Publishing a website is not a national publication it es an internatinal publication.

You wrote that they viewed some Ba Gua tapes and laughed about it about the poor quality. On the other side there is "twardows tom" in bejing who is living (not just for two short weeks) and is studying Ba Gua there and he says that no high level bagua man in bejing has ever heard about your teacher there.

Guandi

[Brad]

TWS,

While I don't agree entirely about the way BT posts, it's not cool to make fun of the way someone talks :( also on another board(Shaolin) you insult other styles for having movements that apear to have no fighting aplication. This is despite the fact that Shaolin-Do(your style) is loaded with these type of movements. Now you say the healing aspects are more important than how to fight. What gives?

[wujidude]

Ben:

>We’re not sipping tea and dancing around the circle discussing philosophy.<

You don't serve tea? **** no way am I going to study with you then.

Listen. We don't disagree on the importance of diligent training in basics and applications.

I'm with you on the philosophy: yin/yang is the only traditional Chinese philosophical concept that I can consistently apply in bagua practice. "Change" is an awfully vague principle, and one not unique to baguazhang (all good martial artists and arts change and flow with the fighting situation). Zhuan zhang was developed first and foremost as a fighting art; only later in his life did Dong Haichuan (no longer actively fighting or working in Imperial Palace security, growing old in the comfort of one of his senior student's homes)vaguely suggest some correlation of his art with the Yi Jing and the Eight Trigrams (after he and Yin Fu began taking on some Palace intelligentsia as students).

The healing aspects of baguazhang are secondary to training its martial aspects; you don't have good health without sound physical conditioning. In the Yin Fu tradition, go to www.traditionalstudies.org (http://www.traditionalstudies.org) or to Jarek Szymanski's site and read interviews with Xie Peiqi. He clearly states that he learned virtually all of his traditional healing skills NOT from his baguazhang teacher, Men Baozhen, but from another guy who had been connected with the Imperial Family's physician (who in turn had been a baguazhang student of Yin Fu). The traditional Chinese medicine, like the Yi Jing philosophy, was an overlay onto the original FIGHTING art.

But back at ya. It's cool to know Novell's people have gone to Beijing a couple of other times. I hope you find the wherewithal to continue going to study there, AND to bring your teacher(s) over here. I've never been to China, and would love to go some time. The fact that somebody else hasn't heard of your teacher (see Guandi's post)doesn't mean anything. Beijing is a huge place; if your teacher is focused on fighting and teaching, not media relations, he's not going to be widely known; and what matters most is the connection/feeling Novell and crew get when studying with the man. To me it just shows he's focused on the martial art and teaching it well.

I still say you can't really judge a person's internal skill by their external movements. The best internal martial artists I've encountered look rather unspectacular, and perhaps even a little sloppy with respect to external parameters like alignment--but their power is unmistakable. I've left a teacher who's a great athlete with excellent alignment, swift sure movement and who just looks beautifully polished on the outside--but is comparatively empty on the inside. I've been thrown by a guy who moves in an ordinary way, who's got decent alignment but no spectacular speed or moves . . . but he's got the power. He's one of my teachers now. Compare the two on videotape and you'd be dismissive of the second, just like your teacher was of whoever you showed him tapes of.

I'm kind of surprised Park's instructor's students didn't seem to get Novell's point about bridging. I know Park teaches getting in on opponents, but maybe doesn't use the term bridging. I think it's most likely the guys who came hadn't practiced or been taught much that way. Hopefully they learned something after Novell jammed them up.

Moore is semiretired from teaching now, from what I understand. I've also talked with a couple of people, decent martial artists themselves, who got floored when sparring him. He moved in fast and furiously and left them no room to respond. So, again, looking fat and out-of-shape in a photo can be a little deceiving.

But Ben why even bother with putting down other bagua people? Focus on the positive truth of your experiences, which is that diligent correct training in basics and applications and strategy is what makes Novell's baguazhang shine.

>And as far as marketing truly goes we don’t have to worry about that, Cream always rises to the top.<

Yeah, but what people perceive from postings by you and Novell so far is a lot of methane gas, not cream. You don't need to say **** putting down people you haven't met. That's negative truth. Let the positive truth of your practice shine a light on what real baguazhang is all about.

Now I'm starting to sound like I'm your mother or something. Sorry. Lecture's over.

For clarification, Park is on record back in the early 90s putting down baguazhang in America (the irony of history). There was a conference of well-known (I didn't say "top") baguazhang teachers to try and establish standards for tournaments and judging. One of my baguazhang teachers was at that conference. Park acted disgusted with all the talking (especially about YiJing philosophy)and left, refusing to participate any further. He basically stated that what he experienced there was not "real" baguazhang and that he didn't see any real baguazhang in America.

Since then Park has mostly focused (in interviews and articles) on what HE teaches, and what he feels is real baguazhang. He hasn't needed to express disrespect for other teachers or styles in order to attract students and teach well.

Just a thought.

[blacktaoist]

Virus fist, your own teacher Park Nam Bok does not know whom Lu Shui Tien teacher was that could mean only one thing. Park Nam bagua is bogus. Some of you may say, that Park Nam teacher was Li Ching Wu (1864?). This is what Park says in Fundamentals of Pa Kua Chang volume 1 Page 10. There is no Li Ching Wu individual in any of the lineages of Pa Kua Chang. As any Pa Kua historian knows the lineage of Tung Hai Chuan and his top students is well recorded. This so called Li Ching Wu individual does not exist. Park Bok Nam is a fraud and a fantasy. Park needs to call his style the Fundamentals Total Distortion of Yin Style Pa Kua Chang. Park has an audience in America that doesn’t know what they are looking at like your dumb ass Virus Fist. I know I’m hard on other Pa Kua practitioners but one thing I can say about them, it’s my opinion that most people can’t fight but they at least they are trained under well known masters. They are not some gimmick master that doesn’t exist in the Pa Kua Chang lineage. You can roar like a lion but truth is truth. Try to disprove me. Anybody can check the Yin Style lineage, the Cheng style lineage, the Ma style lineage, Sung style lineage, and the Liu style lineage. This so-called master is not in any of these lineages. As far as Tung Hai Chaun lineage–is concerned - Park's teacher teacher is not in any of his top students lineage. You talk about marketing – you guys wanted to start it, now I’m going to finish it. By the end of this month, I will have a whole lineage section to discredit Park’s claim. Any person will be able to go to my site and will see that this man does not exist. I will have the lineage chart in Mandarin and English. Park system is not even practiced in China. It tells you that his fake Yin style system is alive and well in America. This is it, I will not continue posting back and forth Virus Fist. If my students choose to defend me, that is their decision. But as far as I’m concerned talk is cheap and people are aware of my location just, as your school knows my location. The result will be the same; I will hem your boys up.

[The Willow Sword]

Maoshan: Pakua taichi and hsingi is what i do as well,,and i am of the INTERNAL ASPECT of these systems,,,,,fighting and the physical is only on the surface level of these internal arts. you know i could get a hammer and make up a form with it and call it fighting as well as a rock a blade of grass,,a basketball,,,,a can o anchovies,,all this is surface level crap that you and your teacher are spouting,,these systems go deeper than your nuts hang BRO. to disrespect a man who has been doing pakua ALL HIS LIFE shows all of us that what you guys do is just teach more brutality and are on the surface. So you guys are from the ghetto huh?
lets see you do a bridge when a tech 9 pops yo dome brotha man. like i said before you guys better start getting internal with your art, im sure that what you do is all good but the fighting aspect being first and foremost in pakua,YOU are mistaken.

Brad: i dont insult arts that have no fighting techniques i just call them what they are DANCES,,PERFORMANCE WUSHU...didnt say that they sucked or were a fake or fraud....did you know that TAi chi and bagua have helped people to reduce some cancers and ailments in thier body? chinese systems are not all about fighting kiddo.
when you get out of your ball shifting stage in your life and start learning the other aspects to those peoples arts and martial arts,,youll wake up. OH and about the SD comment braddy :rolleyes:
Many respects,,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[blacktaoist]

I dont have beef with Park or anybody else, As far as marketing goes, I dont know where you're coming from with that line. I'm not out looking for students. People come to me from word of mouth. As far as China is concerned, I've been there a few times and have trained with many masters. Going to China doesnt make you a master overnight.
I disagree with you on your video point! From what I've seen on Park's video, Glen Moore and a few others look terrible. Any highly skilled practicioner can tell about another person by looking at their posture and body alignment. Anyone looking at Glen can see he's not conditioned for fighting. I'm not saying I am a master but unless Glen has skills like Wang Shu Jin, It would be a cold day in hell before he beats me!!!
I've touched with some of Parks students and I know people that have also touched with his students. They have all come to the same conclusion: no power, no bridge, and no foot work.
Wuji I have nothing against you, I dont even know you. Many people know where I'm at and I'm not hiding. I can back my sh*t up!. Everyone has their own reasons for getting into Bagua, my reason is for fighting. I have no problem sparring anybody. I am not a fraud, and this isnt marketing! If you think I'm talking crap, look me up. No hard feelings, just keeping it real!

[Daredevil]

The Black Taoist may be brash and harsh, but I can only respect what he's doing for Bagua. He's fighting the biggest problem many traditional martial arts have these days and keeping it real.

Maybe he just hits a bit too close to the mark and gets people ****ed off? Well, if so, that's only good.

Sure, the internal arts (or kungfu in general) maybe about more than fighting, but you can never say they aren't about fighting too. That's where they come from, being _martial_arts_.

It's nice to debate philosophy and all that, I for one find it interesting, but when it comes to martial arts there is only one way to test it.

Just my few thoughts and respects to the Black Taoist.

[Waidan]

TWS: I lose more and more respect for you and your school with each post you make.

Just FYI, watching "Mennace to Society" hasn't given you quite as much insight on black America as you think. Some of the racial comments you're making are very base, and insulting to any educated person.

"lets see you do a bridge when a tech 9 pops yo dome brotha man"

Just what the hell is that? Are you seriously that ignorant?

Also, when someone tells me "fighting and the physical is only on the surface level of these internal arts" I become very skeptical of that person's training. I'm not gonna crack on your school (there are plenty of others on this board for that), but I will say that your attitude is exactly what's wrong with IMA today.

[Guandi]

Dear Wujidude

>The fact that somebody else hasn't heard of your
>teacher (see Guandi's post)doesn't mean anything.

I did not mean with that statement that their teacher is not any good, but that it very is to discredit somebody. tbt is doing this with Park, but their own claims are not better verifyable, too.

Guandi

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

Willow sword is displaying some true IGNORANCE in his/her posts, I gotta give TBT respect for not getting angry at that. I also see and have some agreement with the position of Maoshan and TBT; I've only been learning for a year, but it seems like there's not a high enough quality of actual fighting ability among bagua practitioners, it's good to see someone who is showing the application of the theories and changes and not afraid to take on fighters of different styles. I don't know much about Park, so I won't comment on that situation, although I don't agree with putting him down based on his students- they could be his worst.

[The Willow Sword]

actually i am NOT a RACIST AND those are not racist comments,,,if i were to call black taoist another ******* lowlife nigga,,,,THEN I WOULD BE A RACIST.(no disrespect to your race blacktaoist,,just giving an example of what a racist comment is to the ignoramous)....As far as the ignorance goes,,,,MANN it just goes to show that your internal martial arts Are still EXTERNAL. yes yes yes i agree that these arts are about fighting as well,,but being some one who has 15 yrs in this relm i can say that the fighting is definatley SURFACE LEVEL. all fighting is,,for it is easy to do,,the hard part is to walk an internal path and be rooted within yourself and be able to go beyond the fighting and shed that ego of wanting to boast about how tough you are and how another system sucks or is fake...Black Taoist makes some pretty dasterdly claims with his trip on master Park.

you think that by doing the pakua form and learning the myriad of endless fighting applications that this makes you a internal martial artist? there ARE CONCEPTS AND PRINCIPLES to which pakua was formed and the fighting is only a smidgeon of what this art and taichi and hsingi is capable of achieving(within yourself). fighting is about survival and i do it when i must,,sometimes i go to the surface and have to set a persons attitude straight(as in my posts on the shaolin forum) but here,in this forum, it is an exchange of internal perspectives and ideas,,NOT A BASH AGAINST PRACTICIONERS. i come to the defense of MAster Park and i am not a student of his but i have read his books and i have talked with master park briefly and as an internalist i can say that HE IS WHAT HE SAYS HE IS.
i will say this about practicing martial arts be they internal external or both....the level at which a student has ability depends on the dedication and seriousness at which he/she puts into what he/she is practicing....some are good and some are not so good.
you know when i am doing pakua or taichi or hsingi i am not thinking about fighting or how this could kick somebodies ass,,,,,i am going deeper into the movements and the root and the center and the trees and mountains around me,,one of the feelings i get is that i am as rooted and as strong as the mountains which i train in...not about breaking a guys limbs or thinking ,,hmm i wonder if i could fuk sombody up with this move.
ignorance?????? Far from it. :cool:
so Waidan(Matt) and EDB. anything else to add from your EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE?? EDB(one year of training) and WAidan? dont need your respect. read below quote waidan its for you.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Water Dragon]

Not cool

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[wujidude]

A couple of the guys on this thread musta put crank in their coffee this morning.

[Waidan]

TWS Buddy, you've got some serious issues.

First off, yes, your comments were insulting and racially motivated. If you can't see that, you need to seek out help. Maybe that sounds facetious, but I'm not kidding.

"but not all people want to be GANGSTA Pakua MC FLASH AND DASH."

"yo bro put yo balls back in yo pants and be internal for a change"

Do you have some sort of "higher, internal" reason for making statements like these?

Second, I don't like being called an "a$", even if it was indirectly. For someone who claims such one-ness with the world, you have a very short fuse. And btw, what exactly was the point of mentioning my name? Was that meant to be a threat? Was that supposed to humble me in some way?

In short, get a freaking grip on yourself. Oh, and have your blood pressure checked regularly.

[This message was edited by Waidan on 08-23-01 at 01:27 PM.]

[Brad]

TWS,

Dude, you're suck a hypocryte. You get mad at others for having big egos, yet you've been involeved in a constant flamewar and challenged a complete stranger becuase he said your style sucks! In BT's defence(not that he needs me to defend him) he lives in NYC. Fighting better be #1! Fighting is the basis of all martial arts. If you can't use your martial arts to defend yourself well then the rest doesn't matter. This goes for Taiji, Hung Gar, Xingyi, Bagua, Kartate, even "performance" wushu!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pakua taichi and hsingi is what i do as well[/quote]
You're such a joke. Have fun practicing your Karate.

[Brad]

Sorry if I offended any Karate guys out there.

[The Willow Sword]

in the still waters but not going any deeper.
like a water strider that is so light that it cannot sink,,it stays on the surface. unaware of the big fish that dwell quite comfortably below.
words are spoken,,thier intent is scattered to the 4 winds. negative begets positive,,,positive begets the negative,,,,yang diminishes yin yin compliments yang,,,,walking in circles and circles around what your perceptions tell you.
has your heart ever spoken to you?

harsh words make for harsh breath and in saying the things that the black taoist has said he creates for himself an air of response that plays to his own actions words and attitudes.
those who know dont tell and those who tell dont know.

brad: What does the word Karate mean? it means empty hand,,it is a japanese way of explaining a lot.. empty your cup and fill it with realization.

Waidan(matt): jesse jackson once said" one thing that blows my mind of the track,,is a white suburban kid tryin to act black".
eminem acts talks and does rap like he is black: DOES that make him a racist?
i remember vanilla ice(oh boy do i ever remember that joker) he talked black in interviews and qouted all the hip jive sayings of the time: does that make him racist?
willow sword caters to the harsh words of blacktaoist by quoting some old school jive and utilizing it in a jesting manner: does that make me a racist??
ill answer for you: NO

Many respects: Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[blacktaoist]

"Even if it was the second or maybe the third visit, it is still very, very, short for becoming a representative. Far to short in my opinion."

First of all Guandi as I said before I've been to China before by myself not my whole crew. It was longer then 2 weeks. I say about 6 months the first 3 times I went. This was in the early eighties. This was when people in my neighborhood didn't know what Pa Kua was all about. Sh*t I was the only brother that had a passport. As far as a representative goes...that's all it means a rep or connection. I'm not saying that I'm his lineage holder, becuase Master Su Si Xi has other advanced students better qualified then me.

“You wrote that they viewed some Ba Gua tapes and laughed about it about the poor quality. On the other side there is "twardows tom" in bejing who is living (not just for two short weeks) and is studying Ba Gua there and he says that no high level bagua man in bejing has ever heard about your teacher there.”

Your first statement – I did say I view other so-called masters that claim to know Pa Kua Chang in America – after all do I not live in America? So I showed them, tapes of individuals claiming to be proficient in Pa Kua Chang. That was their opinion if they feel they weren’t good. I still stand by my views. Most Pa Kua Chang practitioners aren’t sh*t. You can call me an egomaniac all you want, but I don’t go around pretending that I can fight. I know I can fight. Most of these instructors haven’t been in real street fights or even in a real tournament – point, semi or full contact. I have. I will tell you what they will say, we don’t do tournaments our art is too deadly.

Your second statement concerning this guy from Beijing, name twardows tom. First of all what is he the Pa Kua Ambassador? As anybody knows Beijing is big area that has many providence’s. In the cities themselves there are many districts. So what he lives there? I know brothers that live in Beijing that are students in Beijing University. So what are you saying? As far as high level masters in Beijing, ever hearing of somebody – the real masters don’t come out! So what are you saying? Nothing!

“I did not mean with that statement with that their teacher is not any good, but hat it very is to discredit somebody. tbt is doing this with Park, but their own claims are not better verifiable, too”

I know who my teacher is. I have many to be exact. As far as my Yin style training goes. I say it again, I train under Chen Xiao Ping . Anybody in New York knows that. Just ask Li Tai Liang. I know my teacher’s lineage – they don’t. My teacher studied under Shi Chixing, and Shi Chixing studied Cao Shongsheng, and Cao studied from Ma Kui and Yin Fu. So what are you saying? Nothing! As I said before, I don’t study with fakes. After all how else could have I gotten the pictures that are on my website? Did I go to Beijing to Zhang Li’s house to steal them? Or is Chen Xiao Ping is just taking pictures for the hell of it? Stop being ignorant. Can Park say the same? I don’t think so. How can you be a lineage holder, and don’t know who your instructor was? Better yet how can you not know the date when your teacher died? Li Ching Wu (1864:?). Do your research, Guandi. Even a monkey can figure this out. How can Park’s teacher make him a lineage holder if his teacher himself don’t know when his teacher first instructor died and don’t’ even know the name of the second teacher that he met. But yet his teacher claims he studied with a fourth generation practitioner in Dong Hai Chuan’s lineage. And you are trying to tell me he is a lineage holder? Man…please – let’s get real wake up. You talk about my claims not verifiable? At least I got substance. Lastly, people I talk about are the people I come across. If they got skill, they got skill. The people in Pa Kua I met didn’t have any skills. Most people that I have met that have skills are from other martial arts like Hung Gar, Boxing, Judo, and Karate. If you visit their schools you can see them free fighting, unrehearsed. I can’t say the same about all these fake Pa Kua schools out here.

Peace

[razakdigital]

Willow, quoting black men talking about a white man doesn’t explain your prejudice views. Is Emimen or Vanilla Ice racist? Well let’s define racism and prejudice. Prejudice is to pre-judge someone. For example – If I don’t like white people because of 400 years of slavery then I’m pre- judging all white people. Racism is - if I use my force and will on white people because of my pre-judging views.

Now is Emimen racist? If he is forcing his views on black people - then his is racist. I’m not going to argue if you are or not. The bottom line is, you are making comments that are out of context of the discussion. Don’t hate on African’s that are bringing intellectual and realistic information on a martial art that is dominated by Europeans. You cannot stand the idea of people of color with this type of knowledge.

****, we broke all the rules, not only are we being trained as fighters. But we know Pa Kua history, philosophy and theory. Oh, we even have a website displaying information. To hit you with the knockout blow WE AS PA KUA CHANG PRATITIONERS EVEN WENT TO BEIJING – THE CAPITAL OF PA KUA CHANG!

[Water Dragon]

****** Razak!!!
Just who in the Hell do you think you are??
You know BaGua is a White Man's art!!! Just look at all the masters. There Dong H.., no uh there's YinF.. oops, hold on. Cheng Ting H..? Nope, Sun Lu Ta..

****, nevermind

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[maoshan]

Guandi:

First, You don’t know what your talking about. But let me help you out.
We are learning and teaching Ma Gui’s Ba-Gua, and we have been for the last 7yrs. When we say the Cao branch, Cao Zhong Sheng was a student of Fu Wen Yuan a student of Ma Gui. So in truth we have been doing Ma’s Ba-Gua. Chen Xiao Ping is from Beijing So Learning from him has been like being there. We were approved of the last time we were there By Lo Shih Su and as promised if certain requirements were met This would be the result.
2 weeks? Yo , we never paid for anything, just the trip. So your conceptions are extremely flawed.

As to the Websites, your right. So what ever comes we’ll deal with it, we have no problem.

Now whoever it is that you supposedly have in Beijing checking up on the validity of our claims. Personally I believe your lying,
We’ve already had someone claim that they checked with the Bagua association in Beijing they lied as well. After the Li Zi Ming incident they won’t deal with westerners past a certain level.
In-depth information on the living treasures is out.

Wujidude:

<Yeah, but what people perceive from postings by you and Novell so far is a lot of <methane gas, not cream. You don't need to say **** putting down people you haven't <met.
I’ve trained with Park twice, And after 20+yrs of nothing but Bagua Under various instructors, I’m in position to make an evaluation. But this was not so much about park as his students. And a student is a reflection of their teacher. But other than that, your cool man, Peace.
Willow sword:

You Don’t know anything about me, The first 5yrs of my training consisted of nothing but Qigong/Neigong. Health was the paramount issue, but than again if your being taught correctly in the first place the health aspects are a given. If you have to concentrate on the health than you must be sickly. That was never my problem. So I learn them both together as they should be taught. Also, let’s get something straight , I’m the senior here, the Taoist is my younger brother. But we are equal here in this, We didn’t learn psudeo ba-gua, at the end of 2yrs I was just learning the 3rd palm. I learned traditionally. The internal will always overshadow the external. There’s nothing surface here. And after 20+yrs of doing nothing But Ba-Gua Zhang In all it’s aspects and still learning. The fighting aspects of the art have been seriously downplayed with the pretensions that chi exercises is all you need to do in preparation for a fighting. Bull****! Without Unrehearst sparring, how do you learn to use ba-gua effectively? The very way bagua moves requires that a special timing be attained. Without conditioning, you won’t be able to match a skilled opponent. One step sparring JUST AIN”T IT. Anyone’s knowledge of Ba-Gua is seriously limited if they think so.

Now the health aspects are well known, in fact I cured myself of a bleeding ulcer in 1985 with the internal aspects of Ba-Gua. Your not telling anyone anything. We Teach the art in it’s completeness,
Fighting and health, and in proper teaching the two can’t be separated.

And I also see your one of those individuals who doesn’t know that their a racist. the way you hoped on the language shows just that. But back to the point. The fakes are those who down grade fighting in a martial art meant to be applied against 8 skilled opponents. How do you reach that ability if you don’t fight? It’s you who better take another look at what your doing. Individuals like you are the reason for what happened to taichi in this country. It’s been watered to crap. Me and my brother have vowed NOT to let that happen to Ba-Gua. If your hurt along the way, Tisk,tisk.

As to master Park, He may indeed be a master he certainly has power. I trained with him twice in the 80’s, I felt him. The Subject again was his students and study groups. Park teaches many places there’s no way he can check up on the progress of all these students. Second, That is not Yin Fu Ba-Gua. It’s a hybrid at best. Why Mention it? When we talk about Yin style and one of parks people interject their methods in to the subject. It doesn’t apply. So how do you expect us to react. That’s like saying water is cool aide. come on keep it real.

Maoshan

[Water Dragon]

Maoshan,
It's pretty much been known for a while that Park is not known for giving his art out to anyone. I remeber reading something a few years back from a Park student that basically said: Yeah, Park's definately the real deal, but he only gives out the surface. I have heard recently that he is beginning to be more open, but that's just hearsay.

As far as mixing, if the skill is genuine, does it matter if it's pure or mixed.

For the record, I don't even do Pakua. But I do find it a fascinating art.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[brassmonkey]

"eminem acts talks and does rap like he is black: DOES that make him a racist?" Eminem was once asked in a interview why he talks black and he said something like 'I didnt know black people are supposed to talk a particuliar way.' Not a exact quote but from my memory, I liked it. The way I see things isn't so much black culture, white culture more so culture of environment(urban vs suburb vs country vs whatever.) So you'll find white people who you might have grown up in a urban area that you would call a wigger and you'll find black people who grew up in the suburbs that you others might call an uncle tom. And of course these are unfair stereotypes and noone needs to have the burden of living up to expectations of others to fulfill some ethnic race supiority especially when it doesnt serve them. Good luck with your challenge match in Austin, I'd be interested in how your preparing for it maybe you could do it here and your opponent wont see it.

[brassmonkey]

I think I might be able to clear up one of the misunderstandings in this thread and from your site. From an old post I remember that you do in fact use the I Ching but use African Religion to interpret it. See this is the problem if you had been looking through a Taoists eyes on the interpretation then you would see how they would apply to BaguaZhang. Actually I've never read the I Ching but from what I understand each trigram can be seen in any action or moment so perhaps someone very well learned in it could use correlations to help understand theyre practice. So just as you divide things using Yin/Yang things can also be divided into the Trigrams, I don't think it matters personally but it maybe be a good teaching tool. Ok I don't know anything so you all who know better just realize this post is just out of boredom and my limited understanding. One thing to note though Ive not heard good things of traditional arts anywhere even In China but Beijing might be the Baguazhang capitol or maybe San Fran. So if I'm from China and I travel to say study with Vince Black(whom I've heard good things about so I use as an example but if you think he's no good please keep it to yourself because he's only an example) in Hsing-I and I'm blown away how good this guy is in the 2 or 3 times I visit and study which may amount to say a month and I somehow conclude that American Hsing-I is great and this Chinese Hsing-I is watered down that is some logic when I haven't checked out other cities and too many teachers to count. DaveC on here has some interesting things to say about the state of CMA in Taiwan with Karate being more popular and the same could be said with Wushu in China.

[Daredevil]

Personally, I don't get it why we have to get talk of people's race into martial arts discussions. It has very little relevance to anything.

****, our knowledge of the Chinese Martial Arts is only because of some masters with open minds, who decided they wouldn't act out their society's prejudice on those who wanted to become their students. I mean, all students of CMA should be fiercely anti-racist if anything.

These days, martial arts is a great thing that goes beyond color and I'm **** proud to know that this stuff is practised all around the world, by different people of different races, so could we just get on with the real conversation and forget these racial issues?

[The Willow Sword]

turning this into a racial thing,,,,what a grave misunderstanding on the part of those who feel that I am a racist and prejudiced. the rules of physics state that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. this can be applied to what people post in here. you stste one thing and it gets answered in the manner in which it was presented. i wont answer any more of this racial crap,,,let it be stated by me that I AM NOT A RACIST and will FIGHT to stand behind that.
my whole beef with all of this is the CONSTANT DISRESPECT OF MASTERS PARCTITIONERS AND MARTIAL SYSTEMS HERE ON THIS BOARD. WHEN ARE ALL YOU FUKHEADS GOING TO STOP ALREADY??????? this is too much,,all any of you do ,with the exception of some,,,is boast and posture and sling sh1t and talk sh1t. WTF is your alls' problem?????
some of us actually come here to exchange ideas and talk about what we do,,but when someone makes a statement about anothers practice that is negative the crap flies and this crap starts.
ARE ALL OF YOU JUST LITTLE CHILDREN OR PUPPIES BARKING IN THE SCHOOLYARD?????
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT,,ITS ALL ABOUT THE FIGHT AND REPRESENTIN YOSELF AND SPREADIN THE TRUTH ,AS YOU KNOW IT TO BE. EVERYONE HAS GOT A GOD COMPLEX HERE!!!!
YOU KNOW SOMETHING FUK YOUR OPINIONS IF THEY ARE NEGATIVE.....JUST KEEP ON PROMOTING THE VIOLENCE AND THE EGO AND THE BRUTALITY!!!!!
I AM FED UP WITH people such as most of you here that feel that need to put down disrespect and stomp on folks trying to make a living and teaching what they know without getting the 5th degree.....
despite my comments to black taoist in jest the main message to him and all the people at his school is to START GETTING INTERNAL,,THIS IS WHAT THE INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS ARE ABOUT....NOT THIS EGO DISPLAY OF HOW MY D1CK IS BIGGER THAN YOURS OR MY MASTER CAN FUK UP YOURS....
oh am i raving???? goodness gracious me!!!
im mad you see....
This has gone on long enough in these posts people.

i know we live in a free country and have a right to abuse the freedoms givin us but THE MODERATERS HERE BETTER START POLICING THIS FORUM AND KICKING OUT ALL THE TROLLS AND INSULTERS AND LET THE REST OF US GET BACK TO WHAT THE FORUMS WERE ORIGINALLY SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT: AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER WITHOUT HAVING TO BE SUBJECTED TO THIS CRAP FROM EGOTISTS LIKE BT
WAIDAN,,BRAD AND MANY OTHERS......MODERATERS,,YOU KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE,,YOUR ORGANIZATION IS A PRIVATE ONE(I WOULD GUESS) KICK THESE FUKERS OFF......
ill tell you this when they stop being aggressive punks then i will stop being defensive and callin them what they are: immature children who wear thier souls on thier shirt sleeves.

Many Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Guandi]

>Now whoever it is that you supposedly have in
>Beijing checking up on the validity of our
>claims. Personally I believe your lying,

you are very fast with claiming that one is lying. I just referenced to tomasz at Jareks site. Will cite him here. You can go to Jareks site. What I am citing here is his answer to your question on that site.

------------
1.I'm living in Beijing if you want to meet with you should come here
2.If we are talking about bagua association the chairman is Ma Chuanxi - I know him personally and some anothers guys from this association
If we talking about Li ziming book - you should know that Liziming"s wife won in th court - and what is your problem?!
3. the famous Military and Police teacher is still Ma chunaxu (he taught Jiang Zeming bodyguards) and now because hi is retired this post take his the best disciple - funny is that your are not the first guy from America who claimed that his teacher is famous Milatary and police teacher but the truth nobody know him here
4.I personally know Xie Pei qi and he didn't remeber any guy about this name like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
next simple mathematic my friend:
your hero is 20 years younger than Xie peiqi who started practise with Men Baozhen when he was 14 yeras old how can Su Si Xi can be his older brother in kung fu - he was not born yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. Nobody can be in this same timestudent of Ma gui and Men Baozhen - read more about how looks society in this time
6. I don't care that your friend is US rep. because I'm not from US- I'm living in Beijing
7. Su Xi Si is teachning every Saturday and Sunday near from South gate of Tiantan Park about 5 to 7 a.m.
and question can your friend speak Chinese? I heard that: no - from his students
and btw next time try to be more polite to people

-----------

Guandi

[Brad]

WTS,

Why is it ok for you to call my style useless for self defence? If anyone disagrees with you you call them childish. My main problem was with you mocking people who use slang in that ou are somehow superior. I think YOU'RE the one who should be banned! Constantly using foul language and picking fights like a five year old. You're worse than any troll on this forum, since you're actualy a real person, who actualy believes the crap that comes out of your mouth. One minute you're yelling, TYPING ***** ALL IN CAPS! and then spouting unrelated philosiphy the next. One might come to think you're mentally imbalanced. I think you've allready destroyed whatever positive reputation you had on the internal board. You seem to be incapable of holding a rational conversation with anyone who disagrees with you. Seek help.
I still can't believe you can't see how perople would think you're predjudice. You make fun of how people in a certain area talk by mocking them.

[razakdigital]

Let me explain how this whole post started. Guandi ask a question on an article that was written on Maoshan’s website. The black Taoist responded to the question. If he didn’t respond to the question he would be ****ed. He responded anyway so he is still ****ed. I’m not here to agree or disagree with TBT actions or opinions on the Park situation. I here to inform everyone that what anybody writes on their own website is their prerogative. Please do not expect an answer you might like if you ask a tough question. Everyone knows TBT and Maoshan have strong views on issues. One thing I respect about them is everyone is fully aware of where these guys can be located. So they are not hiding behind a computer.

Please also OVERSTAND that unlike most people, TBT and Maoshan look at things from an African perspective. They come from there own experiences and they don’t just use a Chinese perspective.

I hope this clears up why this post was created. We didn’t create it. Guandi created it.

By the Way, Water Dragon the comment I made earlier –

“Don’t hate on African’s that are bringing intellectual and realistic information on a martial art that is dominated by Europeans. You cannot stand the idea of people of color with this type of knowledge.”

Was directed to Willord sword. To answer your comment -

“****** Razak!!!
Just who in the Hell do you think you are??
You know BaGua is a White Man's art!!! Just look at all the masters. There Dong H.., no uh there's YinF.. oops, hold on. Cheng Ting H..? Nope, Sun Lu Ta.. “

Pa Kua Chang practitioners and students in the US are primarily of European descent. I have no problem with that but as people of color we are always attacked in any discipline we pursue. All I was doing was defending myself on Willows mindset.

Don't hate the messenger for the message

[Guandi]

Dear Razak

>I hope this clears up why this post was created.
>We didn’t create it. Guandi created it.

I just followed the link which Maoshan presented on Jarek's site. So he did not start the discussion, but on the other side if he is presenting this link in an open forum, that means at least that this site is not that private and only to inform his students as he has mentioned it in this thread.

Guandi

[Water Dragon]

It's real hard to tag the intent with the words on a forum. I was backing up your comment. Re-read the post in a humorous/sarcastic tone. I think you'll find I was agreeing with/ screwing with you. All of us are a bunch of foreigners studying a yellow man's art.

H2O

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Guandi]

Dear Razak

>Please also OVERSTAND that unlike most people,
>TBT and Maoshan look at things from an African
>perspective.

what is an african perspective?

Guandi

[TheBigToad]

Fear and anger are usually the result of something you find lacking in your self which you are forced to see it or better yet deny it when someone makes light of it.

In my own experience the more honest I am with my self the less and less and now not at all do I even feel a pang of resentment or anger in the words of another, and because I'm honest and know myself to a high degree I resolve issues that could cause me weakness before they can be made light of, so in a moment of truth where I've been called out and or forced to do my often times dirty job I do so with reserved happiness, because what is the adversary of sung/relaxed force? Fear and hate, bcause they are forebringers of tension.

I respect TBT, not for what he might say but how he says it.

He makes sure you KNOW where he stands on an issue. He makes sure that you KNOW where he is located. You don't have to guess, nor speculate, in the midst of confusion you can always see him and what he stands for and I fully believe he will spill blood to prove it.

In the terms of what a warrior is I can't help but respect it.

What I really think happened here is he touched a nerve. You can always tell who feels weak and vulnerable in their own knowledge because they are the first people to react and get upset and name call.

Its the lack of skill that TBT found in these people who somewhere at sometime studied under Park and who called themselves students of his and found that they themselves weren't as well trained and formidable as they would have hoped.

Some of you internalized that and placed yourself in that situation and didn't like how that felt. Its OK its what the human mind does, you saw your self as a victim.

You can take a victim stance and hate TBT, or you can be honest with yourself, understand why you placed your self as the role of the victim and do something about it, you should thank TBT because he in is own way let you see where you where lacking and where you can move in improvement.

He is a firm believer in Baguazhang as a fighting art, I'm a firm believer in Baguazhang largely because of the work that I sometimes do, I don't have time to revaluate my ability or worst yet second guess my ability when I should be using it.

Largely most of you don't have that luxury of testing yourself in such a manner. TBT tests himself in such ways as well, as does Maoshan because they meet with masters of this systems and say look this is my skill, and are honest enough to know when someone can help them progess..plus I hear they do bodyguard work as well, although I'm not sure to the extent.

As my Shifu Dr. John Painter talks about there are levels of Baguazhang, some people want to be highly spiritual, others want to be performers and tournament players, most want to have civilian self defense methods, and lastly mostly out of need some people take to a warrior life style.

I don't see most of you in that last category, so its easy for me to understand where the majority of you are at. Warriors speak their mind, say what they feel and they do this because they have already tested it against there selves and know clearly inside where they stand on an issue and have no fear in board casting that to others around them. Non warrior often times have a serious issue with that because it cause them to have to find how they react to this information and often times they feel or have to deny what they already know but don't want to identify as vulnerability.

Park himself maybe be a very good and skilled Pakua stylist, his students have a responsibility to make sure they conduct themselves and train in a manner which will reflect their teacher's skill...or they shouldn't be calling themselves students or interjecting their opinions on what, when and how to use Bagua when it was made very clear to them by TBT that indeed they didn't, its that simple.

There is no loss of honor if you get beaten, if you meet someone who has better understanding of an issue. This isn't weakness, it can be if you let it, if you ignore it, if you cover it up. I don't care that there is people who could leave me in a state where only a mop could clean me up, I'm honest in my approach and sincere in my actions to seek out such people and try and learn in and train in what they know.

The saying is there is always some one, some where that can beat you, well the more of learn and practice this "someone" gets harder and harder to find.

TBT is much the same way, his truths might be different and might be harsh to hear, but they aren't lies.

I don't mean to speak for TBT or Maoshan or anybody involved with the Brother of Wudang since they are very capable of doing it themselves, this was just my interjection of the current situation.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[razakdigital]

Hey no problem. Sometimes I post when I'm at work so I might a message mixed up. If were backing me up that I apologize. Again, its hard to really say what you mean and to mean what you say in heated topics.

I'm not looking for conflict but just truth.

[Dave C.]

TBT,
I've read your interview and I'd like you to clarify two points:

1)"But rather how the footwork related to the stars. Anybody who has studied for a good amount of time can relate their stepping to the Big Dipper Constellation.

B.C.H.: Are you saying that instead of the I-Ching, Ba-Gua corresponds to Astronomy?

BT: This is what master Su says: Ba-Gua corresponds to the universe, so in essence Ba-Gua is the universe. If you really want to get deep, Most of the I-Ching scholars dont know ****!"

In the past you've put other people down for gettting mystical about their bagua. Aren't you just doing the same thing here? Why is it okay for you to do it but not them?

2) What's your beef with Joe Crandall? If you don't think his books are that useful fine but at least he's trying to bring this info to the rest of us. How many books have you translated? I remember reading on your site that a "correct" translation will be coming from your organization. But it seems to me that you wouldn't be doing this if he hadn't released his translation first.

And as for him "stealing" the book and "living the American dream" I doubt he's retired to the Bahamas on whatever proceeds he might have made.

[Water Dragon]

It's cool Bro, maybe one day you'll get to Chi or I'll get to NY and we can have that discussion in person. Until then, I have strong views on what this discussion has become, but I don't think an internet forum is the best place to discuss them.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[The Willow Sword]

YOU are way off and out of line by saying that to me...i could careless who you are and where you come from. enough said.

Brad: you contradict yourself by spouting off sh1t about my school and system. i do not call your system a fake or a fraud. i call it a performance art and a dance.

Kevin: the nerve that gets touched with me on these boards is what i have been constantly posting about. disrespect to other teachers practitioners and schools.
you know as well as i what the fighting capabilities are, but with your very well put philisophical and psychoanalytical responses to all this i would assume that you are on a higher plane of understanding about the OTHER aspects of the internal systems...these guys from new york are not it seems,,all its about to them is fighting,,fighting fighting fighting.

RAZAK: What exactly IS an AFRICAN PERSPECTIVE?
that escapes me a bit. enlighten me on what that perspective is.

Angry yes(and i apologize for that)..VICTIM NO....There two books that i recommend for the internal practitioners here.(or any martial artist)
maybe it will shed some light as to why i so passionately defend the concepts of an internal martial art and a way of life that spans beyond the superficial world of fighting and violence.
The books are: BEYOND THE KNOWN(the ultimate goal of the martial arts)
TOWARDS THE UNKNOWN(martial artist what shall you become?) these books were written by Tri Thong Dang.
Master Tri Thong Dang was born in Vietnam and studied under the revered Chiu Chuk-Kai, eighth generation grandmaster of the Taimantis system.
In addition was also a practitioner of Pakua-chang,hsingichuan,and yang style taichichuan. Tri Thong Dang was the founder and director of California's Budo Educational Center until his death.

i suggest that you read from a TRUE MASTER and listen to what he has to say,in story and in proverb.

Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[razakdigital]

Water dragon,

It's funny you said that comment. I'm trying to come to Chi town on Labor Day weekend (if I can get a good price ) for vacation. If I can get a good price and I go I have no problem seeing you over a cup of green tea.

Guandi,

Concerning your question on African prespective it would be over the context of this forum. I have no problem explaining but then you might not understand. I mean no insult but there are things that different cultures see things differently. If you can't fit in my shoes then you might be able to walk in them.

[Guandi]

Dear Razak

>I have no problem explaining but then you might
>not understand. I mean no insult but there are >things that different cultures see things
>differently.

It would be interesting, but I can understand that this might be a little far of the topic. Btw I did not take your comment as an insult.

take care
Guandi

[Water Dragon]

Shoot me an e-mail if you make it up. I'll have my wife make you some Mole. Maybe plat around a little and share some trade secrets. My e-mail's in my profile.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[blacktaoist]

dave c: joseph crandall didn't get permission to translate my sifu book. It you read what i had to say in the interview then you know how i feel. My sifu chen xiaoping and his brother zhang lie are family. How would you feel if someone translate your book without your permission. I only downgrade fake Baguazhang practitioners that talk I Ching mumbo jumbo. Lets get real, if you never sparred full contact there is no way in hell you have fighting ability. Bagua corresponds to astronomy is master su si xi own opinion. as for my book, my book should be out some time in 2002. Guandi; read the past post i and my classmate answer all your F.B.I questions about lineage. But no one answer my question about park bok nam unknown Baguazhang teachers li ching wu (1864-?} and some ever no name fourth generation practitoner in tung hai ch'uan's lineage. I don't know this guy tomasz so i can care less to what he have to say. I know who i studyed with in china i don't have to prove myself to you or any body. If you or any body don't like what i say on site,then don't go there. I never met master xie pei qi or his top student he jin bao, but my class mate moshun study and learn from them. but i guess moshun and the pictures of him and master xie pei qi and he jin bao on his site are fake. any way i say this one more time, if you or any body feel i'm a fake just come see me. my reputation is known in my hood. I play no games when fighting. I apply the teachings of Musaashi's. the book of five rings. Life is about being realistic in every thing you do, not false information inconsistent with reality. peace

[Brad]

TWS,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Brad: you contradict yourself by spouting off sh1t about my school and system. i do not call your system a fake or a fraud. i call it a performance art and a dance. [/quote]

You don't know what styles my teacher teaches. If you want to talk more about this subject you can email me:

bradbauman@worldnet.att.net

We can maybe discuss subjects more rationaly one on one. Ask me any questions about my system you like, and I'll answear them. I just expect to get answears in return. And please number questions for clarity. Fair enough?

[wujidude]

Kevin I admire that post you made this morning on this thread. It's truly mature. I've heard **** thrown at your sifu Dr. Painter (you KNOW what I'm talkin about). A good student's response? Learn the teacher's art deeply, show the skill, train. The student's skill will speak for the art, and the teacher.

Anyways just wanted to say thanks for providing balanced and eloquent perspective on this thread.

[Sifu Tony]

Hey, Black Taoist,

I am a Wing Chun man, not a Pa Kua man, so I could care less what you think about other people's lineage, skill, or knowledge. I am posting a reply because of the comments that you made in your first post on this subject about Glen Moore. I have known Glen for more than 30 years, all of which have been through training in the Martial Arts. When I met him he was already a Black Belt in a couple of systems of Karate, and this was 30 years ago. He has been constantly active in the Martial Arts for all of the time I have known him. His background includes training in such systems as Shorin-Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Arnis, Wing Chun, and various other systems before he began the study of Pa Kua. Health problems and a couple of accidents (motorcycle, and helicopter)over the years have taken a toll on Glen's physical condition as compared to the condition he used to maintain in his youth, but I wouldnt let that create a false impression of what he is capable of. He is still a very dangerous man. I take great exception to you making negative remarks about a man that you have no first hand knowledge about. I think it shows how very shallow you are in your training and knowledge. I have had the great fortune of having Glen as a mentor over the years that have passed , and he has been like a big brother to me. I have learned a great deal from him, and would be more than happy to discuss and demonstrate this in person if you so desire.

Sifu Tony Massengill
3rd Generation Instrictor
Ip Man Wing Chun Kuen
www.wingchunkungfu.cc (http://www.wingchunkungfu.cc)

Sifu Tony Massengill
3rd Generation Lineage Instructor
Ip Man Family Wing Chun Kuen
www.wingchunkungfu.cc (http://www.wingchunkungfu.cc)

[virus fist]

Blacktongoist

One last thing and I will close my mouth.

As you know,there are always two sides a story

Everybody knows your side,but not the other.

Is bad enough that the involved students are not allow to post anymore so everybody could have a better picture.

This started as the result of an invitation by your tribe under the frienly banner that we are ALL PA KUA BROTHERS to an exchange of training tips ,ideas and differences between the two schools.

I repeat again,these were NOT direct students of Master Park,Razak knows that and you know that.

After the event,what you do?,you start spreading your gospel of deceit and false accusations.

MMMMHHH,I guess this PA Kua "brothers" are not very friendly after all.

When I spoke with these students,not only they were surprised by your comments and what you have done,but also ,they have exacly the same opinion about you and your tribe's Pa Kua that you have about them.

Is understandable,isn't it?

The big difference here is that they( their teacher actually, didn't know that they have met with you) did not go on a public forum or web site and trashed you or your school,they kept it to themselves.

This is call RESPECT and MA ETHICS.

Do this two words exist in your vocabulary?

This is not about defending Master Park or his students skills,they can do that by themselves,how could I ,each person is responsible for his own motivation and progress , name me a school that doesn't have students with different skills and understanding,including yours.

This is about you and your ego,your arrogance and attitude toward others and the idea that with fists and kicks you can conquer the world.
You only talk about fighting and only fighting,but CMA is more than that,it also about cultivating your mind and your heart and exploring the human side.

You are full of hate and anger,god knows why,but
skills without the involment of the heart will forever qualify you as bully,a brawler, not a teacher.

As much as I don't like you,still hope that some day you will find a better way to deal with the world and yourself.

Regarding Master Park's lineage question or any other question regarding his school , here is my answer to you,(altough ,this is like giving garlic to Dracula).

Call him,or better yet visit him to express your views and opinions ,he is the best qualified to answer you or show you.

(804) 794-8384.


VF

[blacktaoist]

( You say you be more then happy to discuss and demonstrate this in person if you so desire.) 1# there is nothing to discuss! But yes i like to see you demonstrate your skills on me full-contact fighting. (No self defense drills and theory talking!!!) Here is my address 870 columbus ave apt 14-G new york. 103 street. I teach at a karate school own by a freand of mys its a few streets down from my home, i know my friend will let me use it. so let me know what day you want to do this? As for glen moore i stand by my opinion i don't have to meet him to see he is not condition for fighting. On his sifu video any real fighter can see the man is slow and have no conditioning and he's teaching BAGUAZHANg!! If glen moore would like to come with you he is more then welcome. The bottom line is people get upset when they know living a lie! like i said before if you don't like what i say on my site don't go there!!!! also people know where to find me if you feel i have no skill come see me. only fake BAGUAZHANG teachers get upset. MR. VIRUS THE VIRUS: each time i read your post, i see just how mush a asskisser you are. You must be the water boy of the school, hoping one day to be a 2001 generation lineage (li ching wu) unknown master. How are you to tell me about martial morality. In order for a person to be humble, they must first rid theyself of false dignity.(you need to read old past post by you on this site before you talk to any body about humility.) Virus i can see you are a mental slave, a individual totally unaware that his mind is shackled and your capacity for thought is limited by those who control you. I talk about realistic fighting. Not myths and misconceptions like your boys from the new jersey school of park bok nam. so stop lieing. you r boys use to post on this site like they have skills, and when i met them they had nothing!!! no bridge, no linkage or root!!!! And by the way, i didn't ask to meet them. I don't have to get into a long discussion im just being honest, i know what i can do. So MR. virus stop all the talking and just demonstrate what you got!, your boy tony massengill said he show me. But i know why you are not going to step up, because i know you were one of the students from that school. And you know you got beat down. And i didn't even use any martial arts on you just stright old street fighting. What happen to your so call pa kua then? Bottom line is i know who you are, you can hide behind the computer but sooner or later we will meet up. And when we do, you better live up to your name and kill me slowly. Ain't that what a virus dose? Until then, I will be waiting for you boys to show up. Blacktaoist

[maoshan]

Water Dragon:
I got what you were doing, it was a real hoot.

Ghuandi:

Your persistent I’ll give you that, but your still weak,
The fact that you know who runs the Ba-gua association, Doesn’t mean anything, you still won’t get the info you want.
What does Li’s wife winning in court mean, when there’s no international agreement between China and the US? She won in court, what does that mean? that court has no jurisdiction in the US, even if there was a trial (which I don’t think there was, it would have been a fruitless venture.
Also, your boy is contacting me and the Taoist, asking for info on our other teacher Zhang lei. But he’s already in Beijing, If he could get the info on LoShih Su, than why is he asking us for info surly he can get from the same source. What a joke.

Next we never claimed he was famous. We simply stated what he did. I have proof on video.

I also Know Xie Pei Qi, what are you inferring? I never said that Su Si Xi was a student of Men bao zhen. I said that his teacher Zhong Qing Lian was a senior student of Men. Making him Xie’s senior brother. Get the fact’s straight. How does that sound, what your trying to do is make somebody look stupid and discredit us and it won’t work. Our **** is tight. We know what we do and who we learn from.

next time try to be more polite to people

You call yourself trying to spank us? You have no wins.

Kevin Big toad:
As the rest have said, that was elegant and beautiful post, but most won’t get the warrior aspect, because their not.

Dave C:
It’s the fact that, he didn’t even acknowledge the fact that the authors are alive and kicking. If your not going to give them any of the profit, at least give them the credit that they deserve. We contacted Crandall privately on the matter and have been ignored, if this were the old days somebody’s life would be on the line. That’s my problem. Weather it was a labor of love or one of greed does not matter. These people are here, acknowledge the point. And yes we are putting out an official version of the book. It was due out this December but because of technicalities it’s release has been postponed. But we expect the release sometime in 2002.

Tony Massengill:
What are you? A joke?
Where we are and how to get to us has been a long known fact. Your posturing like the rest. Stop talking **** and bring it. The point’s you made about the accidents he has been in and such are even more the reason he should not have been in the video. he left himself open to ridicule. And while he may have taught you much,
That means nothing to us. Bring the noise and stop making noise.


Virus:
Your lying trying to something I don’t know or care. The fact that they stopped posting after they met Novell doesn’t mean they stopped reading the Boards I’m sure. so your sounding a bit wacked right now. They know all that’s been going on. The park subject was already up in the air when they met and in fact that’s why they met. Talk what you know. But then again Novell is convinced that you are one of the dudes that came that day. And going back and reading what you wrote, You know to much of something you shouldn’t. You said you just spoke to them, then how did you know the details before hand. How did you know that these were students of parks senior student, how did you even know who to go too. Given most these guys use screen names? There’s more, but I’ve said enough. Your frontin.


Maoshan

[virus fist]

Maoshan

Your highness

NO,the Chief is wrong,I am not one of those students..

Told you before,I'm a Virus,I'm everywere,you will never see me 'till is too late.

Don't call my name.

About the future
The fish dies by the mouth.

I know more stuff than you think.Want some more?

There is a personal friend of your new acquire Master in China that claims to be a PERSONAL friend of his and knowing you he says you ARE NOT a student Chen Ting Wa in NYC and that you can not fight,is that true?

Anybody interested in this post go to :

Jarek's Chinese Martial Arts Pages.
Is an interesting forum,he lives in China and offers a different view of things,go check Crandallsand Yin related posts.

VF

[This message was edited by virus fist on 08-26-01 at 12:22 AM.]

[HuangKaiVun]

All this back/forward stabbing is RIDICULOUS for anybody who's truly into Ba Gua!

All of you obviously have some level of ability. Just because that ability doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean it's less or more valid.

Isn't that a basic lesson of martial arts, let alone Ba Gua?

TOLERANCE. RESPECT. That is the true Ba Gua.

[TheBigToad]

Actually BAGUAZHANG has nothing to do with respect or tolerance. Its is a system of movement, shapes and postures, thats it. Its is nothing but what the practitioner makes it.

Said practitioner could be a thief, a child abuser, a lawyer or whatever. And as long as he practiced and was dedicated he could develop some real skill.

If we are going to chat about tolerance and respect in terms of martial arts then the Chinese had something they called Wude, or martial morality, a code of ethics that was "ideal" for martial artists or warriors to follow.


Outside of the PERSONAL believes of the practitioner, Wude and martial skill or not bound to each other.

-Kevin

I am the big toad and this is my pond.

[MasterPhil]

WillowSword : You got some issues to work on but you seem to be honest in your spiritual growth journey. Do not give up. Re-read your posts and meditate on what is it inside you that made you react in such a way and use the language you used. Start with BigToad’s post for some good insight. Don’t get so emotionally involved, it will only cloud your vision and understanding. You can’t fight all the people whom you feel are disrespectful to you or others. Why even bother? If you really are what you claim to be, then disrespecting you only shows their ignorance.

BlackTaoist : Kudos to you for keeping your art true and real. CMA (esp. “Internal” styles) are plagued with a virus I call the “Talkers”. They are the ones who spend more time talking and debating with other students than they spend time training. They are responsible for turning martial arts into martial hobbies. The Ottawa scene is virtually crawling with these types. Nothing bad in itself. Let them talk amongst themselves and keep practicing what you do.

Martial art is about skill first and foremost. Not style, lineage, race, or virtue. Those are add-ons and secondary. Unlike people, true skill doesn’t lie.

In the end, this whole thread reminded me that people shouldn't worry about being known. They should worry about being worthy of their reputation…

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[Braden]

There's an Ottawa scene!?

[Wan Ma Kai]

High Five to Silent Thunder!!! Cut the Crap and get back on the circle!!!

[maoshan]

Virus fist:
Your dreams of a victory against us is still just that a dream.
And what’s wrong getting nervous? You must be. Who the hell is a student of cheng Ting Hua today? My Sifu’s name is Chen Xiao Ping. Before I rip you a new one. Again. My site is full of stuff from my sift we have pictures of us together most of the pictures are of Novell and our sifu but who took the pictures. Who has the original copy of his book? We know exactly who it is on Jarek’s site. A pretender that slipped up and we got him. So here’s my response to him:

[We know who you are Jeff.
You know nothing of our history, And were do you get Howard Sweeny from? Because of our sifu’s reluctance to teach a public
Class no one would have known him if not for me, in fact I told ,you about him in 95 or 96. You are no friend of Chen Xiao ping.
You are a mere acquaintance . I tried to figure out why you’ve done this. Even with the junk that Novell told me came out your <mouth, I still don’t understand this. Oh well, Stop trying to make us look stupid. The fact that you try to replace me with Howard Sweeny makes no sense. How do I have things that only a student <of a would have. These weren’t just presents. I earned them.

As to the address, You violated protocol with what you just did.
First, you don’t know Lo Shih Su. Stop lying!
You read what I wrote and took it to the next phase. It wasn’t hard. You had your wife call Beijing with the hint that I gave you, <again it wasn’t hard
So now that he has the address, what’s he going to do. Just in case, when we read this post, Novell called Lo Shih Su and informed him of What’s going on. Let’s just say I’d love to be a fly on the wall when he comes knocking. He will be tested. And so will you Jeff. You need to be made a believer. You’ve trained long enough Maybe
you'll last long enough for me to have some fun.]

As to Li tai Liang, (that’s what told us it was you), and the rest of this Bull Your Spouting? I leave to my brother.

As you can see this is no friend of our sifu. So stop grasping at straws. Novell also answered this imposter, which can be seen if you follow the link. You need to listen to Parks Rep and be quiet.
You have no wins here. In particular because you have no place here. In one of your post between you and Novell admitted defeat before you even have met him. How does a man admit defeat having not crossed hands. Which proves that at a very minimum you’ve seen him fight, and that your in NY and that as we’ve constantly said, your one of those punks that are popping all this **** hiding behind their computer which only makes us think lower of you than before. You don’t like what we’re doing with our sites? Wait for wait for whets coming next.

[This message was edited by maoshan on 08-28-01 at 01:15 AM.]

[MasterPhil]

Virusfist : Looks like maoshan found the vaccine to stop you!!! Just kidding man, couldn't resist the play on words ;)

Seriously, this is getting really stupid. Aren't moderators supposed to close threads when they simply become meaningless schoolyard mud-slinging matches?? Any valid arguments from any side has been brought forth already. It now comes down to personal issues and those should be resolved face-to-face or at least contact each other directly via email instead of giving a show of poor taste in public. Like Red (he's a barman at a local bar) always says: Take it outside boys!!!

As Wan Ma Kai said, everybody should go back to walk their respectives circles... Really guys, this is just making bagua as a whole look petty :(

P.s. Braden : You mean you don't know the Ottawa scene?? The whole scene meets every thursday night to do country line dancing at Patty's. Bring your cowboy hat and the lady!
Seriously, you know what I meant ;)

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[razakdigital]

This is a letter to all that have seen this post. I will hope to clarify this whole matter. TBT and Maoshan as everyone knows have an article, which displayed on both of their websites on an interview with TBT. In this article some issues they had with Park Nam and his students were raised. Guandi brought this link to KFO to ask everyone’s opinion about the article. It is common knowledge that everyone responded. This whole argument has even went on with another website. Let me say to all lets stop the nonsense. Yes, TBT and Maoshan stated some truths how they feel and not everyone will agree. I can understand how other shoe would fit. I say this – as TBT and Maoshan clearly stated before – do not go to the website if you don’t want to hear their opinions. People will say what people will want to say regardless.

There were some comments that were made from Wujidude about marketing. We as a group don’t look for attention. Yes, we posted the China trip (if you recall EVERYONE and ANYONE was invited) or other seminars we had. Everyone else does the same thing on this board. TBT turns down students. That is a very known fact in NYC. We get enough attention as it is just from who and what we are - publicity is not needed.

This is a good forum for discussion on Internal Arts and I’ve met many people offline and I put out many topics. When the Brothers of Wudang post we bring relevant issues and questions to the forum that most individuals are afraid to ask. Yes, we talk a lot about fighting, but if you look in previous posts we talk about theory and philosophy. ****, just look at Maoshan’s name and see the science in that! How many of you know what it means? There are many people that view this board that appreciate the information we bring. They feel we are a little too strong but we are honest in our intentions. To be frank, who else on this board is going to bring relevant topics on the usage of your Internal Arts skills? Again, we aren’t the best school in the world, I’m surely not the best fighter (I have a lot to learn and more practice to do) but at least we do not hide. Most of our pictures are on our website so it’s not like we are ducking for cover. We just train to be warriors there is nothing wrong with that. Doesn’t anyone read about the famous Pa Kua and Hsing – I practitioners that were fighters? Were they wrong in learning how to fight? If so, how can we be wrong? Oh, don’t think we don’t do other things like meditate and other soul-searching aspirations. As Africans, we come from a different perspective. We are clear in what the Chinese perspective is, but since we can never be or try be Chinese, we be ourselves and use what the Chinese have modified for our usage. (This might be a little too heavy of an inner meaning so excuse me - I mean no insult)

If you ask TBT or Maoshan a question, you will get their honest answer. It might be like Cod liver oil when you taste it but you ask for the oil – so why complain?

Parks students

This is very important to for me to clear up because I was there when Park’s students met with our students. First, they are cool guys. We met at two previous tournaments and we were very cordially to each other. We exchange phone numbers and we setup to exchange Pa Kua info. Now virus fist posted this comment –

“This started as the result of an invitation by your tribe under the frienly banner that we are ALL PA KUA BROTHERS to an exchange of training tips ,ideas and differences between the two schools.
I repeat again,these were NOT direct students of Master Park,Razak knows that and you know that.
After the event,what you do?,you start spreading your gospel of deceit and false accusations.
MMMMHHH,I guess this PA Kua "brothers" are not very friendly after all.
When I spoke with these students,not only they were surprised by your comments and what you have done,but also ,they have exacly the same opinion about you and your tribe's Pa Kua that you have about them.”

It was a friendly banner that we came together. It was mutual understanding to meet. Yes, I’m aware that these students are not direct students of Park. I can understand that the students were surprised by the comments that were made and rightfully so. I didn’t post anything at all about them or the meeting we had. I must say however that stating they had the same opinion about our pakua would be mis-leading. As stated earlier, there were certain characteristics that were missing with their Pa Kua that TBT made comments about. Since this is a fact, for them to question our skill level would be false.

Obviously the post has gone further in the level of verbal attacks then originally seen. After talking with a classmate of mine, he reminded me of some things I thought about after speaking with him. Does it matter, what lineage, where and who you train with? Maybe – I think so. Truth is truth. (I say this not on the topic of Park Nam’s lineage but as a general statement) But alas, it is more important that when it’s time to use it – that you can use it. This is a question that all of us must answer within ourselves.

TBT and Maoshan are warriors and as such they are aware of their actions and circumstances. They are Pa Kua practitioners that love the art - in this love sometimes they can be too honest. Nevertheless, words have been said and posts have been made. At this point, let’s just all practice and be ready to use our skills if the time comes. If that time comes, the situation will determine if you really can use your Pa Kua or not.

[Braden]

Actually, I honestly _don't_ know the Ottawa scene! :)

I've traded a few emails with internet types that seemed nice, and I know one of John Hum's students socially, but other than that, I just hide in my bedroom and walk the circle.

[Mr. Nemo]

I'm not trying to be fatous here (I know I failed) but I noticed that the blacktaoist was using paragraphs and punctuation in his posts, and I appluad you for it. They're so much easier to read that way.