Modern day CMA training

[YouKnowWho]

I had a "Fundamentals of (electronic) Logic Design" course in college.

The course was designed as:

Unit 1 - Intro number systems and conversion
Unit 2 - Boolean algebra
Unit 3 - Boolean algebra (ctn)
Unit 4 - Algebraic simplification diode gates
Unit 5 - Word problems minterm and maxterm expansions
Unit 6 - ...

You study one unit and then take the lab hours when you feel ready. You can finish the whole 27 units in one semester.

One possible way of CMA course design could be:

Unit 1 - Advance footwork
Unit 2 - Betreat footwork
Unit 3 - punching combo
Unit 4 - kicking combo
Unit 5 - locking combo
Unit 6 - throwing skill
Unit 7 - entering strategy
Unit 8 - finish strategy
Unit 9 - defense skill
Unit 10 - ground fight skill
Unit 11 - ...

Each unit can then be devided into subunits if needed. This way the students will know exactly what he is currently working on. This approach may not be considered as traditional but if it works for electronic engineer then it should also work for CMA. The units approach is not designed trying to train any particular style but "the style of combat".

What do you guys think about this "none-TCMA units approach" training method in the modern day?

[Royal Dragon]

Have you tried teaching this way yet? What were your results?

[YouKnowWho]

Have you tried teaching this way yet? What were your results?
I have and I like to call it "combat SC" but others may like to call it Sanshou, Sanda, kick boxing, or MMA. It's really pretty much the same thing.

This is how my senior Kung Fu brother train his guys in Taiwan

http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_5.wmv

This is one of the result from this kind of training

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv

Do you think people really care about what style that they are training?

[MasterKiller]

The thing I love about Wang Shifu is his willingness to share.

[lkfmdc]

yes, but according to some on here, if you aren't doing forms and practicing Chi Kung, or taking tea ceremony and flower arranging :p then you aren't doing Chinese Martial Art! :eek:

[street_fighter]

Excellent:)

[Knifefighter]

This is one of the result from this kind of training

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv

CMA guys... would you consider that a good demonstration of CMA techniques?

[Laukarbo]

if you aren't doing forms and practicing Chi Kung, or taking tea ceremony and flower arranging :p then you aren't doing Chinese Martial Art! :eek:


didnt you do all that?:cool:

u always do chinese martial arts if its a chinese style..no matter if there are forms,tea ceremonys,hei gung etc...:D

lets say if someone is interested in competition matches like mma then he doesnt need to take up cma no one will force him,as well as no one will force him to sign up on kungfu boards..

at the same time if a chinese martial artist never tests his skills he also neednt to brag about how deadly his style is...:D

nice clips by the way..:D

[shuaichiao]

CMA guys... would you consider that a good demonstration of CMA techniques?


Yes I would.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, I would too. That's actually similar to what my stand up looks like. Mebbe cause I trained through the ACSCA for a couple years. I used that mixed with boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ at my old school.

I'm a BIG fan of the sidekick after training MMA.

[street_fighter]

Does it really matter? Its sparring that can supplement any training. You should be happy to see that they are doing something in a live environment.

[EarthDragon]

Youknow who, Excellent clips, beautifully exectued techniques, clean and sharp. some of the best I have seen in a while......

[Yum Cha]

CMA guys... would you consider that a good demonstration of CMA techniques?


No. Nothing "C" about that MA.

Good that if may well be, and don't slag me for dissing it, that's NOT the question, I used to fight that way in tournements. To my mind it lacks traditional Chinese character. Why?

Poor lateral movement and use of space. Straight attacks to a clinch, leg grab or trip.

No creativity. Same half dozen techniques. Brawn not brain.

Too much wasted energy. 2 minutes in both are cactus. If you don't have the gas, use what you have wisely. Not much wisdom obvious.

Oh, yea, no eye gouges, ear boxes, chi blasts or vigourous tugs on the wedding tackle....i.e. its Generic because there is no evidence of any CMA style coming through.

Fair enough, I reckon its a training match between classmates who are friendly, and done in an informal manner. I don't believe it shows the best they have to offer, but it does show that they use generic kickboxing with some basic takedowns (Single leg and tripping, but no follow up). That big sidekick early on is Japanese or Korean. Thai leg kicks and knees, western boxing, and what is unique about the grappling?

Its the kind of fighting it takes for a Sifu to have his boys win tournements and attract more students who like winning tournements, build a fighting gym and make money in an industry where its really hard to make money. Call it what it is, no disrespect intended, just my own humble opinion.

As for TCMA character, distinctly unimpressive.

[Flying-Monkey]

CMA guys... would you consider that a good demonstration of CMA techniques?

No, it is not.

[lkfmdc]

kicks and strikes to enter into throws is now not CMA? :confused:

oh dear lord :rolleyes:

[SanHeChuan]

Falling on top of your opponent, because your forcing a take down isn't CMA.

[Yum Cha]

kicks and strikes to enter into throws is now not CMA? :confused:

oh dear lord :rolleyes:

David, you could misquote more effectively by saying, "Punching and Kicking isn't CMA??" Lift your game buddy, you missed an opportunity! Both are equally inaccurate, but the latter would have been significantly more bombastic.

BTW, I saw one throw, and several messy tumbles to the ground that only marginally demonstrated any advantage for the agressor. And the groundwork is a bit like "Getting off at Redfern" (google it).

To me a CMA takedown usually leaves the agressor standing or at an advantage, and the victim on the ground, or at a dis-advantage. Takedowns are not simply an opportunity to rest.

And, before you get a big "web-fu" fattie, remember, the point of reference is this video, not San Da in general. Thats raging on the other thread where you are defending traditional values....

[D-FENS]

Great stuff. I really liked the round kick-side kick combo. He knew how to gauge distance and control the pace. Very good sparring!:)

[lkfmdc]

David, you could misquote more effectively by saying, "Punching and Kicking isn't CMA??" Lift your game buddy, you missed an opportunity! Both are equally inaccurate, but the latter would have been significantly more bombastic.

BTW, I saw one throw, and several messy tumbles to the ground that only marginally demonstrated any advantage for the agressor. And the groundwork is a bit like "Getting off at Redfern" (google it).

To me a CMA takedown usually leaves the agressor standing or at an advantage, and the victim on the ground, or at a dis-advantage. Takedowns are not simply an opportunity to rest.

And, before you get a big "web-fu" fattie, remember, the point of reference is this video, not San Da in general. Thats raging on the other thread where you are defending traditional values....

I guess I'm different than a lot here, I just browse a video, I don't slow it down to exact moments and analyze it for deep meaning....

I also guess my standards are low, while a big slam where you remain standing is nice, it's hard when you are doing things live against someone with a pulse and a clue... a lot of times all you get is "trips"...

Also, doing some BJJ, I don't think that falling with the person is unreasonable or even bad.... unless of course you have no idea what to do on the ground

Personally, I did think some of the footwork was TKD influenced... I prefer a bit more grounding, but all in all, at least we have some CMA based people out there doing some practical fighting skills, but what do I know really?

[Royal Dragon]

Also, doing some BJJ, I don't think that falling with the person is unreasonable or even bad.... unless of course you have no idea what to do on the ground

Reply]
No, it's not bad, but it's not TCMA either. If you are a purist, you are going to want to ground an opponent (preferably by crashing his head into the pavement), but stay standing yourself.

[mantis108]

Although I am never a fan of San Shou (the sport), for it's quite limiting to what TCMA can potentially go IMHO, the clip shows a great venue for Shuai Jiao. I believe UFC or Pride presents a better venue and challenge to TCMA then San Shou. BTW, you can still do Shuai Jiao there. Just the open finger gloves make a different already. If you don't think that "accidental" finger jab work, just check out UFC 52 Liddel and Couture fights.

I like the clip because it shows counter for counter in real time. Real Kung Fu does counter to counter when 2 equally matched stylists are going at it. It's not choregraphed so it's not "pretty" (I'd have to say it has pretty clean techniques shown if you ask me). The fact that both contestants are very aware of the landing position is very enjoyable to watch(to fall on one's back is a big no no in Shuai Jiao right?). But then it really makes me want to see submission holds or knock out on the ground.

Anyway, I think it's an other good way of using TCMA technique combinations in sparring.

Mantis108

[Mr Punch]

Am I wrong in thinking that there are throws in CMA that land both of you on the floor?

Am I also wrong in thinking that anyone who throws a resisting person has a good chance of going down? Especially if they're good and want to hold on...?

Anyway, it looked OK to me, and as for whether it's Chinese;
a) I don't care,
b) YouKnowWho seems to think it is...

[Yum Cha]

I guess I'm different than a lot here, I just browse a video, I don't slow it down to exact moments and analyze it for deep meaning....

I also guess my standards are low, while a big slam where you remain standing is nice, it's hard when you are doing things live against someone with a pulse and a clue... a lot of times all you get is "trips"...

Also, doing some BJJ, I don't think that falling with the person is unreasonable or even bad.... unless of course you have no idea what to do on the ground

Personally, I did think some of the footwork was TKD influenced... I prefer a bit more grounding, but all in all, at least we have some CMA based people out there doing some practical fighting skills, but what do I know really?


David,
Thanks for taking the time to make a considered response. As I said, my response was to the question in the thread, not in general about San Shou or MMA.

As already pointed out by RD, BJJ great, TCMA, not the best. You said yourself, "a big slam while you remain standing is nice." My sentiments exactly.

Falling with the guy and using BJJ, great, but not classic TCMA. I'm no expert in Shuai Jiao, but Mantis's comments seem to make sense.

You also mentioned the footwork, and that you prefer better grounding. Me too.

Thus, as far as good TCMA goes, can't you agree it is rather common to poor?

Granted, as always, it may be good San Shou, MMA, whatever you want to call it, and I know you hate "Generic kickboxing", sorry for trolling you.

----------

As a promoter, do you think something like this could work?

3x3 round matches scored 2 point minimum awarded per round.
1 for agression
1 for style (exemplifying your style, not general style)

Additionally:
1 pt per clean takedown/knockdown
win for knockout/tko

Ground work, whatever...

The principle would be to still recognise power and effectiveness, but to also recognise style. I don't know if would save the traditional arts, but it would be a lot more entertaining. People want to see the character of the TCMA styles, just look at how much people like watch ing Chung Lee.

[Water Dragon]

I'm no expert in Shuai Jiao,

Considering who started this thread, that statement's pretty funny.

[David Jamieson]

shuai jiao uses more drills than long formal sets.

but it's still cma.

to have the level of kungfu that we project upon the idea of having kungfu is not an easy thing. If it has any failings whatsoever, it is not regarded as kungfu. I think this is a mistake to think that people with kungfu cannot fail. failure is how a person gets to kungfu. :p

i agree, tcma should not be holitically regarded as incense burning, banner hanging and tea ceremonies. but these practices are comparable to group circle talks, trainer advice sessions, rumionating about what others have achieved etc etc.

The component of meditation and healthful exercise for the sake of cultivating good health and general well being are still part of kungfu and they belong in the regimens for kungfu.

I would agree these aspects are not necessary to practicing boxing or wrestling and so on.

The cultural traditions that are interwoven with asian martial arts practice can and do indeed become the larger part of the focus for many practitioners. Not all, but some for sure. that's cool, it just means that there are many starting points to kungfu practice. You get to the fighting eventually. :) But you can get there sooner if you like too. It's up to you as an individual.

[YouKnowWho]

for whether it's Chinese … b) YouKnowWho seems to think it is...
I’ll be the last person on this planet care about “styles”.

This boy is in his early 20 and he already has 20 Sanshou fights experience. Good or bad, the experience will be with him for the rest of his life.

Good CMA Shenfa (body method) requires long time to develop it. After we have develop our proper CMA Shenfa, we may be too old and our fighting period may be over. We can always enhance our Shenfa when we get old, but to obtain some fighting experience, we may have to do it before we

- get marriage
- have kids
- have regular day time job.

That window is not very big.

This is why I called it "modern day CMA training". It's not traditional method that you go to hide in the mountain for 10 years and then come down as a master. It's "do it first and enhance it later" or "learn how to float before swim" approach.

[shuaichiao]

Am I wrong in thinking that there are throws in CMA that land both of you on the floor?...

No, there are plenty of sacrifice throws in CMA and even a handful of ground fighting techniques. They're just not used very often.

[EarthDragon]

Shuai Chiao you said..........No, there are plenty of sacrifice throws in CMA and even a handful of ground fighting techniques. They're just not used very often.

Not sure what CMA you do, however we have 360 ground fighting techniques in 8 step praying mantis that is used to fight from a fallen position and we use them all the time since most fights always usally end up on the ground.

[Mr Punch]

I’ll be the last person on this planet care about “styles”...It's "do it first and enhance it later" or "learn how to float before swim" approach.Good post.

[Royal Dragon]

Not sure what CMA you do, however we have 360 ground fighting techniques in 8 step praying mantis that is used to fight from a fallen position and we use them all the time since most fights always usally end up on the ground.

Reply]
It would be good to do a DVD on these, or at least upload the core ones, and tactics for useing them to Youtube.

[shuaichiao]

Shuai Chiao you said..........No, there are plenty of sacrifice throws in CMA and even a handful of ground fighting techniques. They're just not used very often.

Not sure what CMA you do, however we have 360 ground fighting techniques in 8 step praying mantis that is used to fight from a fallen position and we use them all the time since most fights always usally end up on the ground.

I was refering to actual grappling techniques not ditang style stuff, not sure what type of techniques you're referring to as I don't do 8 step mantis. Most would agree the ground stuff is used very little in CMA in the majority of styles, in fact many will deny they exist at all.

[Yum Cha]

We can always enhance our Shenfa when we get old, but to obtain some fighting experience, we may have to do it before we

- get marriage
- have kids
- have regular day time job.

That window is not very big.

This is why I called it "modern day CMA training". It's not traditional method that you go to hide in the mountain for 10 years and then come down as a master. It's "do it first and enhance it later" or "learn how to float before swim" approach.

Very good post. Realistic and practical. Its the old "if I only knew then what I know now." I couldn't agree more.

The question is, how skilled, and how soon do you learn to move to that different place. How soon do you realise, or does the boat simply pass you by.

From the posts here, it becomes painfully obvious that lots of guys get left on the dock.

[Royal Dragon]

My time was between 22, and 28. At that time i trained conistatntly 3 hours a day 4-6 days a week. My wife at the time couldn't stand me, so all that time away from her prolonged our marriage :D

Unfortunetly, I was in Chung Moo Quan, or on my own during that period, and I didn't find the good stuff till I had become a single Father. :(

[Yum Cha]

My time was between 22, and 28. At that time i trained conistatntly 3 hours a day 4-6 days a week. My wife at the time couldn't stand me, so all that time away from her prolonged our marriage :D

Unfortunetly, I was in Chung Moo Quan, or on my own during that period, and I didn't find the good stuff till I had become a single Father. :(


Hahahahah....now its old timers turn.

First liar doensn't stand a chance!