ATTN: David Jamieson (vid) [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:06 AM

the bull rush works for you ray.

have you met anyone that sucessfully jams it on you forcing a rethink on entering strategy for you?

what happens when that occurs?

I can only comment on the clips I have seen, but I've seen him easily transition back into outside range when he is unable to enter.

I think his "bull rush" is great when combined with his aggressivness. One can see that he often overwhelms his opponent with this approach. The only limiting factor to this up to now has been his lack of grappling and groundfighting skills, something that is obviously being remedied.

Ray, big props to how you are putting everything together.

MasterKiller

11-20-2006, 08:19 AM

LOL @ people criticizing him for leaning back when he completely nails a couple of huge guys in standup exchanges.

Awesome job!

Do you think he would do more damage on those punches with better structure? Maybe KO people instead of just knocking them down?

lkfmdc

11-20-2006, 08:20 AM

If I were his coach, I'd just advise him to keep his hands up more.... as recent UFC's have shown, rushing forward with hands down you can walk into big trouble

Otherwise, nice clips Ray

yenhoi

11-20-2006, 08:20 AM

I think rear slipping is a good skill to have but your head shouldent be tilted backwards during the straight blast.

This is the best clip yet.

:eek:

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:21 AM

Ray-
A quick technical comment for you.

At the 4:11 mark, when you were mounted and went for the Americana lock on his left arm, it looked like you had your own left arm underneath his head and tried to finish from there.

This can be a good set-up, but you have to bring the left arm out from behind his head and bring the elbow into the side of his neck to finish the lock. If you're not familiar with what I mean, any of the higher belts at Renzo's can show you.

I think you are going to be a natural on the ground. I can see you already hunting for triple threat arm lock set-ups.

Once again, excellent job.

David Jamieson

11-20-2006, 08:26 AM

the bull rush worked for tyson as a boxer for a while. It does indeed lend an element of surprise when a person takes this tactic.

rushing in is something you don't see often. What you do see is quite a lot of circling and waiting more often than not. So, the bullrushing can work, provided you got an idea of what to do once you get inside.

I think Ray could make it even more effective charge wise by shrimping up a bit more as he charges. It will help to eliminate chances of taking one on the chin before making it inside the gate for one thing. So far, all the clips I've seen of him using this tactic he succeeds mostly because the opponents are simply not prepared and are indeed overwhelmed by Ray's zeal to get inside.

Eventually you'll meet a Larry Holmes type fighter that will brace and shield against that with a counter.

Getting to the outside rim is less valuable than a variety of entering techniques (imo).
Finding gates and opening them is key to success in aggressive attack. Equally important is sealing that gate for the person being attacked.

shrimping and sinking on a forward charge also reduces your chances of being thrown once you get there.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:28 AM

Do you think he would do more damage on those punches with better structure? Maybe KO people instead of just knocking them down?
It's hard to tell. When he lands on both of those guys they are moving back and turning (and he did land a very hard cross on the second guy's chin which might very well have knocked out a smaller guy), before he overwhelms them on the ground. It's hard to knock someone out with one punch at any time and even harder when they are not trading or standing with you, but turning and covering up.

Both of those guys also look to be significantly bigger than him.

It doesn't matter though, because this gives him the perfect opportunity to overwhelm them on the ground.

I just watched the clip again... that cross to the chin of the second guy DID have damaging power and was right on the button. He rocked that guy big time and put him down with that shot. That would easily have required a standing 8 count in boxing.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:37 AM

I think rear slipping is a good skill to have but your head shouldent be tilted backwards during the straight blast.
So far, it's working for him. If I was Ray's coach, I would encourage him to keep using it, and testing it further. I would take him to a Muay Thai gym to do some sparring and see how it holds up there.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:50 AM

the bull rush worked for tyson as a boxer for a while.
Yeah, until he quite using it the way he was when he was with Cus and Rooney.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:53 AM

Eventually you'll meet a Larry Holmes type fighter that will brace and shield against that with a counter.
Which will be great for Ray once he develops a good clinch and takedown game.

David Jamieson

11-20-2006, 08:58 AM

Yes. If he encounters a bracer, a switch of tactics will be required.
Clinch and ground stuff is gonna be paramount to success in that range.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 08:59 AM

Clinch and ground stuff is gonna be paramount to success in that range.
And, obviously, he is doing that by training at Renzo's.

Pork Chop

11-20-2006, 09:07 AM

the first guy was a point fighter on his feet, he made so many mistakes it was obvious he was not prepared for anything near a full-contact encounter.

the second guy only had leg kicks striking wise. if i had to guess, i'd say another mma guy who overestimates his standup ability. the way he kept dropping his left guard in a rhythmic fashion was begging for a shot to the face. Southpaws (his stance) would never drop that arm- or at least they usually don't if they know what they're doing, given southpaw's disadvantage at taking attacks from that angle.

the second guy looked like a 175lb fighter, maybe 185, I would bet he and ray were of a similar weight.

this is the only type of thing i'd worry about with ray's style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URa6Y64JAQk
in otherwords, someone who lets you commit, creates a small angle instead of backing up, and drop a shot on that exposed chin.

all that being said, nice job ray.
I really liked how you took advantage of the second guy's weakness in his defense by switching stances and throwing that cross- get a nice long distance hook and you wouldn't even have to switch stances, but really nice workaround.
You're blending in the transition to ground well.
I don't do groundwork, but you seemed to be really good at securing good position.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 09:08 AM

Ray-
What was the background of those two guys? The second guy looked to have some pretty decent standup skills.

Ray Pina

11-20-2006, 09:17 AM

First guy was Baji. Said he wanted to go mid to heavy and when I asked for clarification he said we'd start light and build intensity. I said I would pass because I didn't want to throw off my timing for the next guy... really didn't want to reveal anything for an encounter with consequences. He then said alright, let's go full to the tap.... he apparantly forgot about that.

The second guy is JP, a committed martial artists who trains MMA with a boardmember here who I met at my MMA match. Good people. Apparantly PJ is very pleased with his instruction because he travels 3 hours to Jersey to train with him instead of the numerous places he checked in NYC ... including Renzo's (no stand up offered he said). He's also fighting in an MMA event in a few weeks.

He's tough. Takes a shot well and submitted everyone in ground play before the matches (I sat out due to bum elbow but his ground seemed more technical than mine at the time being... which is why I played it safe and tried to simply hold position).

As for charging in: it's being painted like I just close my eyes, run in and hope for the best. I ALWAYS control the hands before I enter. Without controlling the hands it comes down to who's faster/longer/lucky. It is just a tactic I've come to enjoy. All tactics have their strenghts and weaknesses which can be exploited. You know that going in and work the strenght and damage control the weakness.

Pork Chop

11-20-2006, 10:18 AM

As for charging in: it's being painted like I just close my eyes, run in and hope for the best. I ALWAYS control the hands before I enter. Without controlling the hands it comes down to who's faster/longer/lucky. It is just a tactic I've come to enjoy. All tactics have their strenghts and weaknesses which can be exploited. You know that going in and work the strenght and damage control the weakness.

fair enough

personally, i like countering with a charge- letting a guy make a mistake with a bad commitment and then running him over when he can't do anything about it.
if you're taking him out of position to counter as you engage, then nothing wrong with that.

i think i woulda won my fight a few years ago if i'd kept pressing my charge instead of trying to finish with a fancy takedown once the guy had completely given up position.

now that i'm boxing full time, i kinda like fighting while backing up, creating angles, countering, and really picking people apart. Lately, I tend to only use the charging flurry when I've got no other options.

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 11:05 AM

What's funny about this thread is that you have an example of someone successfully using CMA techniques such as bridging and trapping against bigger guys while keeping the distinct flavor of CMA without turning it into kickboxing. The kung fu people are trying to pick him apart, while the demonic, blasphemous arch-anti-kung fu guy is giving him props...too ironic.

At the same time you have Abel posting something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8YZB5hta6A

The epitome of trying to use kung fu and making it into cr@ppy kickboxing and no one murmers a peep.

GunnedDownAtrocity

11-20-2006, 11:10 AM

LOL @ people criticizing him for leaning back when he completely nails a couple of huge guys in standup exchanges.

Awesome job!

thanks man.

GunnedDownAtrocity

11-20-2006, 11:23 AM

Knifefighter

11-20-2006, 11:29 AM

that's weird. i thought i read people giving him props and small pieces of advice that he can take for what its worth. maybe we are reading different threads.
Yeah, I guess you are right... nevermind then.

LeeCasebolt

11-20-2006, 11:47 AM

Ray -

In the second fight, you spent a lot more time on the outside than I'm used to seeing in your vids. Was that a conscious decision on your part, a reaction to something he was doing, or just a random occurance?

At about the 2:45 mark there's a beautiful little hand trap to set up the knockdown punch. I need to find out how to save Youtube vids so I can show that to my JKD instructor; I think he'll get a kick out of it.

For as recently as you've begun BJJ, your positioning looked very good on the mat.

Nice stuff.

GunnedDownAtrocity

11-20-2006, 12:20 PM

the internet is a funny place. if thats not sarcasim cool ... if it is sarcasim then i hear what your saying i just thought it was a little harsh. im not trying to take anything away from him by mentioning he leans back a bit .... first thing i said in this thread was good job. but usually when people post videos of themselves they welcome or at least expect small comments if their intent is good.

while i might not exactly be tma anymore, i still have a fondness of it and have personally given ray props in other threads for what he is doing.

Flying-Monkey

11-20-2006, 12:51 PM

Ray Pina

11-20-2006, 01:31 PM

Ray -

In the second fight, you spent a lot more time on the outside than I'm used to seeing in your vids. Was that a conscious decision on your part, a reaction to something he was doing?.
We fought before and I know he's been training for an upcoming fight and he's gotten strong, sharper... I didn't want to get caught. I had respect for his reach and ground. On one hand I didn't want to get tagged coming in. On the other, I didn't want to just rush in and let him throw me and get position. I wanted to feel out some of his responses and find a safe way in.

At about the 2:45 mark there's a beautiful little hand trap to set up the knockdown punch. I need to find out how to save Youtube vids so I can show that to my JKD instructor; I think he'll get a kick out of it.

There's probably a better example of it in the video of my sig where it replays a few times. The guy is smaller but the principle is the same: get one hand, get the other hand, hit while the other pulls back or runs outside. This is one of the most valuable things I learned from master Chan. I wouldn't fight without it.

Ray Pina

11-20-2006, 02:12 PM

Could someone post that footage on Empty Flower for me... I'm still banned:)

GunnedDownAtrocity

11-20-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by LeeCasebolt
At about the 2:45 mark there's a beautiful little hand trap to set up the knockdown punch. I need to find out how to save Youtube vids so I can show that to my JKD instructor; I think he'll get a kick out of it.

http://keepvid.com/

.... just need an flv player which they link to on site somewheres.

omarthefish

11-20-2006, 04:43 PM

Could someone post that footage on Empty Flower for me... I'm still banned:)

Ray,

Why do you even care?

I saw this and was going to post it over there because I like what your doing. I was even thinking what a seriously dangerous fighter you might be becoming, trying to analyze your style not to help you but to beat you. :D That's generally a compliment because it means I see it as a kind of a threat. Training at Renzo's really does make it complete. I know whenever I get back to the states I prolly need to do something similar. I don't really like BJJ that much and prefer to keep things standing but having real ground skills gives you a lot of extra confidence to charge right in. Kind of dissapointed in the Baji dude. Theoretically he should be doing the same thing, charging. But the real danger there IS that you can get tangled up, clinched up and tumble to the ground together with someone.

Anyways, you're not welcome at emptyflower for reasons completely unrelated to your MA skill so I don't see what posting your stuff there is supposed to do other than pad your ego in some sort of "I told you so." You got banned for em...."political" reasons including you'r relationship with your old school. Sounds to me like it was a pretty traditional place and you violated the rules of ettiquette in a thousand different ways.

I think you should just let it drop.

Faruq

11-20-2006, 05:45 PM

I started a thread a few weeks back here in the Kung Fu Forum on how to download stuff from youtube and google, and somebody posted a website with downloaders that I've used to download in AVI and MPEG video, and made DVDs with. No flv player necessary. I just wish I could remember what the website I downloaded the downloader from was. It's probably about 5 or 6 pages back by now.

http://keepvid.com/

.... just need an flv player which they link to on site somewheres.

Try www.enriquepuertas.com, though he has a note that says:

Que no me esten jodiendo con preguntas brutas sobre los productos...LOL

Ray Pina

11-20-2006, 08:37 PM

I don't see what posting your stuff there is supposed to do other than pad your ego.

No1 reason why I wanted it posted there: So my master can see my understanding of his technique now. I'm hoping there will be some bridge that I can cross back to a relationship with him someday. His standup, power and structure is genious. I don't do it justice.

No 2 reason (not as important as No. 1): To make it clear that win or lose I show up for war, aiming to provide a beating. How much more so against some internal paper tiger placing themself above me as some martial authority when a) their technique is $hit, b) their training is $hit and c) they are full of $hit (when balancing claims vs actions).

Sorry I'm not politically correct enough for you. These days it's politically correct to torture people. In the past it was politically correct to exterminate native americans via disease, alcohol, war.... I hear now one can make a name and money for themselves in the kung fu world with their mouth ... or finger tips. I know, I'm screwy. One of these days I'll get my head on straight and everyone will agree with me. Or, better yet, I'll just agree with everyone.

Water Dragon

11-20-2006, 08:42 PM

Let it go, Ray. Just do your thing. That's enough.

Ray Pina

11-20-2006, 08:42 PM

It wasn't Baji's fault... he was everywhere that day but at a fight: Brought his girlfriend... sparred light so everyone can see what's what. His fundamental idea of a FIGHT was way off. He probably sees it different now.

I know I did after I got man handled. Realise you don't go to a fight thinking about your girl, your this or that or what about the other thing... you go to beat someone. Then go home and feel good. Then rest a few days and train.

Mr Punch

11-21-2006, 07:43 AM

Your fighting seems good, solid, no-nonsense. I just got one question:

WTF are you wearing?! Is that... patchwork pants?! :eek:

Is that to like, distract your enemy? You should try some of those black and white numbers with the ****ing psychedelic patterns man, hypnotize the ****ers!

Faruq

11-21-2006, 09:21 AM

Ray, I admire what you're doing, and only wish I had done what you're doing when I was your age!

No 2 reason (not as important as No. 1): To make it clear that win or lose I show up for war, aiming to provide a beating. How much more so against some internal paper tiger placing themself above me as some martial authority when a) their technique is $hit, b) their training is $hit and c) they are full of $hit (when balancing claims vs actions)..... I hear now one can make a name and money for themselves in the kung fu world with their mouth ... or finger tips. I know, I'm screwy. One of these days I'll get my head on straight and everyone will agree with me. Or, better yet, I'll just agree with everyone.

Eddie

11-21-2006, 12:31 PM

Ray Pina,
I started reading your posts in the beginning, and I really admired you and what you did. I respect fighters and anyone who really goes out and push himself to do his best. I usually only laugh at some of the other remarks of people who think they can fight, who obviously have no clue.

However, Lately, your posts have become somewhat arrogant in nature, and you seemed to have lost that … erm … humility that you had in the beginning. Whether you do MMA or TCMA, whats the big deal? From what I have seen in the videos, you don’t have any special skill that you wont find in any good fighting school, be it traditional or modern method. You have fighting spirit, and that’s probably the difference between you and some of the others, and of course, you don’t limit your self. That’s my biggest argument with so called TCMA players. They think because you do TCMA it means you are limited to your style’s structure and strategy.

If I were you, I’d listen to the advice the people here gave you. You fought two stand up fighters who obviously aren’t really use to throws and take downs. Some one who is comfortable with throws and takedowns might take advantage of the way you pull your head back and rush into the attack. Double leg take down really works well.

No need to bash traditional players. People seem to have different interests and different reasons for learning martial arts. But I get the feeling you already know all of this. Why else post on this forum then? ;)

Ray Pina

11-21-2006, 01:01 PM

The Baji guy, the first guy, was not ready for what he got himself into.

JP, the second young man, is an accomplished MA with years in traditional, kung fu, JKD and other systems. He is now a trained and competitive MMA stylist.

I actually keep an open mind and am willing to learn from others. At the same time, I will say it is completely ignorant for you to judge what someone is capable of doing, their level, based on a single fight.

By your standards if I only witnessed Royce Gracie fight Matt Hughes I would dictate that he is terrible, doesn't understand the ground at all. And then see how Hughes was beaten by Pierre, say, how did he let that chump make him look so bad. By that equation Pierre is a master, Hughes knows no stand up and Royce is a newb.

I feel I am being accused of being arrogant because in the past I have gone back and forth with people over things like this and it usually comes down to them saying somehow that they're better than me and how poorly skilled I am.

Being that many of these people are older martial artists ... and I was involved in martial arts in the late 70s and 80s and am well aware of how the standard of that day matches today... and also very aware of the emphasis many of these same people place on form, the lack of fights they have, the inability of them to produce a fighter.... I have to say they're talking about a subject they actually aren't familiar with. The definition of which is.....

I'm a human being. Somedays I deal with one situation one way, the next another way. Take your post: signed on and was called arrogant out of the blue. Go figure.

Eddie

11-22-2006, 08:28 AM

Ray Pina,
I didn’t criticise your skill, I just commented on the way you seem to try justify yourself, to yourself. You enjoy your training and you see and feel the benefits. Why still keep on with this quest on trying to convert all ‘traditionalists’ to your mixed martial arts way? I know that you know that there is more to martial arts than just the obvious :rolleyes: .

Anyway, as I said, I admire your martial arts journey. You seem to have travelled a good path, and I think you have learned a great deal about yourself and your martial arts abilities. Do you really care about the rest?
Ed

PhilDunlap

11-22-2006, 10:18 AM

Was this an open mat or an actuall fight ?

Merryprankster

11-22-2006, 03:16 PM

the bull rush worked for tyson as a boxer for a while.

Tyson didn't bull rush back in the day. He kept his hands in a peekaboo position, advanced behind his relatively short jab, and used head movement to keep from getting nailed while creating angles and closing the gap.

That's not a bull rush.

Knifefighter

11-22-2006, 05:33 PM

Tyson didn't bull rush back in the day. He kept his hands in a peekaboo position, advanced behind his relatively short jab, and used head movement to keep from getting nailed while creating angles and closing the gap.

That's not a bull rush.

Exactly... watching Tyson training with Rooney, one could see his entries were highly technical and refined. They spent countless hours working on that approach.

Faruq

11-22-2006, 06:01 PM

Interesting. Most casual boxing fans I come across say Tyson never had anything. But then I don't think they would have the keen eyes of a martial artist, and for that reason wouldn't remember Tyson's skill from so many years ago. By the way, I personally think that's the reason Tyson wasn't successful in his later years. He wasn't spending hours on the technical aspects of his fighting that he did when he first broke into the pros. That and the fact that he expected to knock everyone out without a fight. He definately didn't knock everyone out when he was at the top of his game, though he knocked the f) uck out of Marvis Frazier (oh, what a beating!).

David Jamieson

11-22-2006, 07:37 PM

Tyson didn't bull rush back in the day. He kept his hands in a peekaboo position, advanced behind his relatively short jab, and used head movement to keep from getting nailed while creating angles and closing the gap.

That's not a bull rush.

no, it's not, but you can't negate that the mad dog approach is what took mike to the top of the game. Until...well, the Givens thing happened, and the ear thing...

anyway, he charged like there was no tomorrow when he was at the top of his game and was not realy noted as a tactician or strategic boxer.

Merryprankster

11-23-2006, 09:02 AM

David, you're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. I concur with knifefighter. Although tyson's handspeed and power in both hands were what he was famous for, his infighting skills/ability to close the gap were top of the line. That is a tremendous skill to possess, and his were highly technical and refined. You can see the head movement, head protection, advancement behind the inside jab, quick angles and advancement behind the short slips and, importantly, the creation of a "ball" with his arms and body that he used as a shield inside to keep guys who wanted to smother him and clinch for the break from being able to grab a limb.

That allowed him to unload those lethal punches at his range, while taking all the leverage and power off his opponents'.

In short, the first tyson we saw could control fighting distance like a genius.

By contrast, the tyson that fought Buster Douglas advanced straight ahead and back, used little head movement, didn't advance behind his jab or slip, and swung for the fences. He was either kept outside by the jab (which made him a sitting duck at the end), or smothered by the much taller douglas on the inside.

The difference between the two is astounding. It's like watching two different fighters.

Ultimatewingchun

11-23-2006, 09:37 AM

"anyway, he charged like there was no tomorrow when he was at the top of his game and was not realy noted as a tactician or strategic boxer." (David Jamieson)

***HE charged like a bull, alright...but his training under Cus D'Amato had a real method to it's madness. The young Tyson rarely ate punches as he was charging in. Merryprankster is right.

Of course, by the time he ran into Evander Holyfield (both literally and figuratively)...he was up against someone who was not afraid of him...could take his punches...knew how to crowd him...neutralizing the charge and the combos...and then proceeded to beat him up real good.

The problem with Tyson was that he was a bully who couldn't deal with getting hit hard or dominated...and of course, was an all-around scitzo who needed a dominant father figure like D'Amato to keep him under control. Once D'Amato was gone...he was easily influenced by the wrong crowd and his own childish overblown and ignorant ego.

But he could have been another Rocky Marciano - in potential. Same awesome style and punching power - but 30 lbs. heavier than Marciano.

It wasn't meant to be.

David Jamieson

11-23-2006, 06:38 PM

i wouldn't say it wasn't meant to be, the guy did hold the world heavyweight title and was a dominant force in boxing. he had his day in the sun. still, not a very orthodox fighter imho.

Flying-Monkey

11-24-2006, 04:09 PM

Have any of you seen Iron Mike fight before he was Champ? He had technical skills.

Faruq

11-24-2006, 07:28 PM

My perception was that by the time Mike fought Holyfield, and Buster Douglas too for that matter, he had been spoiled under Don King. Like the Merry Prankster says, watching the young Mike Tyson, and the one that fought those two guys is like watching two different fighters. While he was good though he did win his first 19 fights by stoppage, and become the youngest heavyweight champion in history at least.

Vajramusti

11-25-2006, 07:29 AM

I dont think that Jamieson understands Tyson's skills. He went downhill with irregular training, getting rid of Rooney, Atlas before that-after DAmato's passing,
and prison time and personal problems and moods and probably related meds.
he is caricature of himself and his knees are unreliable- specially after surgery.
His killer instincts have deteriorated. BUT-that should not take away his achievements-he had very good technical skills in his prime. Each boxing trainer has his own substyle... and D'Amatos' peekaboo made for several champions besides Tysosn- Patterson and Torres included. Tyson's balance, knowledge of angles, early footwork, head movements,...made for good defence. he didnt just in- he knew what he was doing(distance, position. angle and timing) when he was moving in---he had to move in- he is short and short armed as far as heavyweights go. In his early years because of his friend and co trainer Jacob he saw every film of great fighters again and again.
Without Cus, Atlas and Rooney and jacob passing away- there was no one around to correct him as he wandered away from the peekaboo-leaving himself wide open. And he bulked up -compare his arms and chest- in early training and later. he became top heavy and couldnt move much- he couldnt go in much....though his great power in either hand remained but could not be used as often. Plus the heavyweights became much much bigger than him-Douglas, Lewis etc. Weight makes a huge difference in boxing...and the heavyweight division has no limits on weight. So the days of the smaller heavyweights are numbered.
The early mastery(pre Douglas) of a comparatively square stance helped him develop power on both sides- he could hook and uppercut on either side from inside or outside.
The tragedy of his later over the hill career should not take away from his great achievements...
in technical skill, power, speed and timing.

sihing

11-25-2006, 08:00 AM

Tyson definetly had great skills back in his haydays. I was just recently watching some clips of him on youtube. He was slippin jabs and shots left and right, while setting up his opponents with his own jabs and finish off punches. People/fellow boxers got scared of his power. Now maybe his opponents weren't the highest level of skill, like in the era of Ali or Frazer, but still it has to be realized that Tyson had very good Boxing skills IMO, and could easily compete with those other fighters from years gone by.

I agree that it was his lack of work on his technical skills that eventually lead to his fall from the hightest ranks in boxing.

Ray,

Good video, by the way....

James

Faruq

11-25-2006, 11:41 AM

I've got to try to find the link again, but I remember reading that Patterson got his peekaboo defense from Coxsacki during his stay there in the late 40's, and it was part of the Coxsacki shuffle. Unless D'Amato thought it was useful, broke it down from Patterson, and taught it to his other boxers, it really kind of escapes me how Tyson ended up using it. Either way, Tyson's fights brought a lot of entertainment to a lot of people back in the 80's, so maybe St Peter'll let him through the Pearly Gates in spite of himself. LOL. Oh wait, Tyson's still alive, isn't he?