Monkey Kung Fu Styles

[The Xia]

I'm looking for information on monkey styles. If you have information about a monkey style(s), this is the place to share.

[Flying-Monkey]

I do Tai Shing Pek Kwar. It is two styles combined together. Pek Kwar is known as the axe fist or arm swinging style. Tai Shing is known as the five monkey fist. There is only one grand master. It is Sigung Chan Sau Chung.

[SifuAbel]

Interesting..............

[Royal Dragon]

I thought Tai Shing meant Great Sage.

[iron_silk]

I thought Tai Shing meant Great Sage.

It does mean Great Sage (or something very close)

It is in reference to the mythical Monkey born out of a stone and to achieve the "title" Great Sage Equal to Heaven.

Ergo Tai Shing is in reference to the monkey sets.

[ginosifu]

The Xia,
Monkey stlye kung fu is very difficult to find as a pure system all by itself. Monkey styles and performances have been noted thruought Chinese martial art history. This is a small section of my Monkey History:

The first mention of "Monkey style" kung fu was in the Han dynasty (206 B.C. - 220 A.D.). During that time a martial artist named Tan, Chang-qing gave a demonstration of a monkey style while under the influence of alcohol. Also during this period a silk painting was found entitled "a bathing monkey calls", with pictures depicting a monkey style. Another type of monkey form was found in the period. This was created by a physician named Hua Ta. He healed the sick and the weak with breathing exercises and physical movements he called the 5 animal frolics. These 5 animals were the Tiger, Bear, Crane, Deer and the Monkey.

In the Song dynasty (960 A.D. - 1279 A.D.), Yan Ching added monkey techniques to his Mi Zhong Yi or Lost path style. The Great Emperor Tai Tsu created the Long Fist style (Northern Shaolin), and a monkey style. During the Yuan dynasty (1260 - 1380), Shaolin monk Bai, Yi-feng combined monkey style with 4 other arts to form what is still known today as Ng Chor Kuen or 5 Ancestors Fist.

In the Ming dynasty (1368 - 1644), Chinese army general Chi, Ji-guang mentioned monkey as contemporary style in his "New Book of Discipline". Another martial artist, Wang, Shi-xing wrote in his book "Journey to Song Mountain" : When I descended the mountain and returned to my lodge, the priests performed various martial arts to entertain me. Among them was a monkey style exponent who leaped and turned as though he was a real monkey. In 1564 Governor Zheng, Ruo-zengs wrote a whole chapter on the "The 36 Tactics of the Monkey style" in his book "Posting as Governor South of the Yangtze River.

During the evolution of the monkey style, many other kung fu systems incorporated monkey techniques into their style. In the early 1700's Shaolin master Wang Lang added the agile footwork of the monkey to create his Praying Mantis style. Most all Shaolin systems have at least one monkey form. Tai Chi Chuan has monkey movements named "Step back and repulse the monkey" and "White ape presents the fruit".

You can find the rest here if you wish:
http://shaolininstitute.com/Angry%20Monkey%20History.htm

Monkey style itself has been placed into the category of esoteric ! I think that most normal people get wierded out when you mention Monkey style. They think of scratching your ears and rolling on the ground. Even in China this style lost popularity during certain time periods. As a style loses popularity, they fall into the annals of history. However, seeing the greatness of the Monkey style, many systems absorbed monkey forms and techniques to keep it's part in their ethnic culture.

On the other hand, if you truly look around hard enough you can find Monkey systems still exist. They are just few and scattered.

I would suggest that you research carefully, ask all of the Chinese Kung Fu Sifu in your area if they have any Monkey forms or know if anyone is teaching them. I had to dig deep and I found forms on the net, I talked with a fellow kung fu Sifu and he knew of a few he had on VHS from a million years ago, Their is stuff to find out and you gotta have the right connection too.

One last note. I teach a small Monkey Stlye (not related to TSPK), if you ever need some help or more info you can email me:
ginosifu@shaolininstitute.com

[mickey]

Greetings,


This thread.....looks........different.





mickey

[Flying-Monkey]

Anyone else want to describe their monkey style?

[SifuAbel]

You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:

[Flying-Monkey]

You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:

No, what are you talking about?

[SifuAbel]

Greetings,


This thread.....looks........different.





mickey


......................................

[Royal Dragon]

In the Song dynasty (960 A.D. - 1279 A.D.), Yan Ching added monkey techniques to his Mi Zhong Yi or Lost path style. The Great Emperor Tai Tsu created the Long Fist style (Northern Shaolin), and a monkey style.

Reply]
It has allways been my understanding that Sung Tai Tzu practiced the Monkey style that already existed from 650 AD. He did not invent it. He included the footwork and some concepts in his Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form. Many Tai Tzu schools today still teach the Monkey style he practiced along side thier Tai Tzu.


During the Yuan dynasty (1260 - 1380), Shaolin monk Bai, Yi-feng combined monkey style with 4 other arts to form what is still known today as Ng Chor Kuen or 5 Ancestors Fist.

Reply]
It was my understanding that this is when the Southern Tai Tzu was emerging in the public after haveing been originally developed in the later Sung dynasty (1127 Ad to 1279 AD). Five Anscestors Fist came much later in the Ching (1700's)

Comments anyone?

[ginosifu]

Thank you for the history lesson. I thought my research was thorough but, I might be mistaken. My point was only help The Xia with his endevor to find info on monkey styles. You input has made me rethink my research, I must go back and check further.
again thank you

[SanHeChuan]

Monkey Style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjOhHNUSgRY)

[SifuAbel]

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!! LOL! ROFL!!

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Friends,
A few posters here have PMed me seeking information about the Monkey style that I have practiced for nearly thirty of my thirty-eight years in the martial arts.
Here is some basic information from our student handbook:

Nu Hou Quan 怒 猴 拳

Nu Hou Quan is Mandarin Chinese and translates as, “Angry Monkey Fist”.
It is a combination of three Chinese fighting methods:
北 少 林 - Northern Shaolin Fundamentals,
地 躺 - Di Tang Ground Fighting Techniques,
猴 拳 - Monkey Fist Theories.

Empty Hand Forms

Nu Hou Quan is comprised of three fist sets:
怒 猴 出 洞 - Angry Monkey Exits the Cave
怕 猴 偷 桃 - Frightened Monkey Steals the Peach
詼 猴 赴 宴 - Capricious Monkey Attends the Feast
Each set incorporates the most important theories of Angry Monkey Fist.

Fighting Theories

Nu Hou Quan is built on three fighting theories:

近 遠 - Near & Far
天 地 - Heaven & Earth
四 手 - Four Hands

Monkey Mimicking - vs.- Combat Techniques

Unlike modern Wu Shu or many of the Monkey forms seen online or on video, the Nu Hou Quan forms have only a small amount of Monkey mimicking. Mimicking is sprinkled sparingly through the monkey forms. Nu Hou Quan is about 5% monkey mimicking and 95% fighting techniques based on monkey movement theories.

Weapon Sets
Nu Hou Quan incorporates several traditional Northern Shaolin weapons, plus the Iron Ring.

Instructors
Though several others have studied this art over the years, at this time there are only three persons of our lineage teaching this stlye, Richard A. Tolson, Gino Belfiore and Alan Cicco.

Regards,
Richard

[Flying-Monkey]

Friends,
A few posters here have PMed me seeking information about the Monkey style that I have practiced for nearly thirty of my thirty-eight years in the martial arts.
Here is some basic information from our student handbook:

Nu Hou Quan 怒 猴 拳

Nu Hou Quan is Mandarin Chinese and translates as, “Angry Monkey Fist”.
It is a combination of three Chinese fighting methods:
北 少 林 - Northern Shaolin Fundamentals,
地 躺 - Di Tang Ground Fighting Techniques,
猴 拳 - Monkey Fist Theories.

Empty Hand Forms

Nu Hou Quan is comprised of three fist sets:
怒 猴 出 洞 - Angry Monkey Exits the Cave
怕 猴 偷 桃 - Frightened Monkey Steals the Peach
詼 猴 赴 宴 - Capricious Monkey Attends the Feast
Each set incorporates the most important theories of Angry Monkey Fist.

Fighting Theories

Nu Hou Quan is built on three fighting theories:

近 遠 - Near & Far
天 地 - Heaven & Earth
四 手 - Four Hands

Monkey Mimicking - vs.- Combat Techniques

Unlike modern Wu Shu or many of the Monkey forms seen online or on video, the Nu Hou Quan forms have only a small amount of Monkey mimicking. Mimicking is sprinkled sparingly through the monkey forms. Nu Hou Quan is about 5% monkey mimicking and 95% fighting techniques based on monkey movement theories.

Weapon Sets
Nu Hou Quan incorporates several traditional Northern Shaolin weapons, plus the Iron Ring.

Instructors
Though several others have studied this art over the years, at this time there are only three persons of our lineage teaching this stlye, Richard A. Tolson, Gino Belfiore and Alan Cicco.

Regards,
Richard

What is the history of theis style?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

What is the history of theis style?

The history I was given, I believe to be only a legend. So there is no point going in to it. If I do not believe it, there is no point in trying to analyze it, argue about it, or defend it. I have never been interested in being a historian, just a competent martial artist.
The style stands on its efficacy. Which we are each respectfully willing and able to demonstrate to anyone interested. :)

[Flying-Monkey]

What is the lineage.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

What is the lineage.

That is tied in with the history. If I don't trust the history, it would be reasonable to assume that I don't put much faith in the "lineage" either.
In, I believe, three or four private messages you asked me to share about our style. The Xia also asked me to post information. So, in good faith I did.
The information I posted is the information given to students. We do not put any emphasis on history or lineage as you saw from my post that you quoted, only form and technique.
Like many Chinese arts we have an unverifiable history and lineage. Unlike most styles we are honest about it and do not try to win students through fairytales.
Judge us only on our ability. It is all we claim.
I was reticent to post any information because I have seen too many flame wars at this site. This is the last post where I will discuss history or lineage.
However, if you want to talk techniques or theories, I will be happy to share what I have learned.

[The Xia]

Recent figures in your lineage should have verifiable information about them (your sifu, sigung, and si-tai-gung). As for the rest, you can still share it with us.

[Blacktiger]

Weapon Sets
Nu Hou Quan incorporates several traditional Northern Shaolin weapons, plus the Iron Ring.


Regards,
Richard

Whats the iron ring???

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Whats the iron ring???

The Iron Ring in Nu Hou Quan
The iron ring, as the name implies, is a ring made of iron. The size varies according to the practitioner. A practitioner's ring should be able to slide freely over their shoulders. Thus the ring of a slight adult will be smaller than the ring of a barrel chested adult. As an example, my ring is 33 1/2 inches in diameter. My son's ring is only 18 inches in diameter.
The ring is used for blocking, locking, striking, sweeping and throwing techniques.

[ChinoXL]

monkey king pm me info plz ty :]

[Flying-Monkey]

That is tied in with the history. If I don't trust the history, it would be reasonable to assume that I don't put much faith in the "lineage" either.
In, I believe, three or four private messages you asked me to share about our style. The Xia also asked me to post information. So, in good faith I did.
The information I posted is the information given to students. We do not put any emphasis on history or lineage as you saw from my post that you quoted, only form and technique.
Like many Chinese arts we have an unverifiable history and lineage. Unlike most styles we are honest about it and do not try to win students through fairytales.
Judge us only on our ability. It is all we claim.
I was reticent to post any information because I have seen too many flame wars at this site. This is the last post where I will discuss history or lineage.
However, if you want to talk techniques or theories, I will be happy to share what I have learned.


Ok. Who were your sifu and sigung?

[Blacktiger]

The Iron Ring in Nu Hou Quan
The iron ring, as the name implies, is a ring made of iron. The size varies according to the practitioner. A practitioner's ring should be able to slide freely over their shoulders. Thus the ring of a slight adult will be smaller than the ring of a barrel chested adult. As an example, my ring is 33 1/2 inches in diameter. My son's ring is only 18 inches in diameter.
The ring is used for blocking, locking, striking, sweeping and throwing techniques.

Interesting -never heard of it before but sounds cool :D

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Interesting -never heard of it before but sounds cool :D

I think the weapon is more common in China than in the US.
It is a fun set. It is also one of the last sets learned in our style.

[The Xia]

Who is your sifu and sigung?

[phantom]

I have also heard of a southern monkey style. Does anybody know anything about it? Thanks in advance.

[phantom]

Ginosifu and monkeykingusa, is your style just a combination of shaolin kung fu, seven star mantis, and fu jow pai? I got this impression from the description of the angry monkey video series on Ginosifus site. However, Monkey king Usa's description sounds like there may be more to the style than just aspects of those three arts. Thanks in advance.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Ginosifu and monkeykingusa, is your style just a combination of shaolin kung fu, seven star mantis, and fu jow pai? I got this impression from the description of the angry monkey video series on Ginosifus site. However, Monkey king Usa's description sounds like there may be more to the style than just aspects of those three arts. Thanks in advance.

Phantom,
Yes, there is also southern Monkey kung fu. I have seen a tape of Patrick Hodges performing a set from it.

Ginosifu, Gino Belfiore, is one of my students who teaches in Richmond Heights, Ohio. No, Seven Star Mantis and Fu Jow Pai have nothing to do with our style. Since, we have only the three monkey sets in our style, Gino felt that the other sets would be good forms for someone with no Chinese martial arts training to learn before beginning Monkey style. Though we are now removing these sets and updating his curriculum. However, his webpage has not been updated yet.
Btw, Gino is an excellent martial artist with about 80-100 students at his school. Read his bio page to see his many accomplishments!

[Sow Choy]

Hello,

Master Chow Keung's HK student has uploaded another video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkcoHgszlro

This one is "Lin Wan Jerng" or Continuos Palm, I am almost certain it is a Pek Kwar form... Hope you enjoy...

Joe

[Flying-Monkey]

Hello,

Master Chow Keung's HK student has uploaded another video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkcoHgszlro

This one is "Lin Wan Jerng" or Continuos Palm, I am almost certain it is a Pek Kwar form... Hope you enjoy...

Joe

Yes it is. I have seen two forms in that form.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Hello,

Master Chow Keung's HK student has uploaded another video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkcoHgszlro

This one is "Lin Wan Jerng" or Continuos Palm, I am almost certain it is a Pek Kwar form... Hope you enjoy...

Joe

Joe,
Is this the same form that is featured in one of Chan Kai Leung's Pek Kwar videotapes?

[Flying-Monkey]

Joe,
Is this the same form that is featured in one of Chan Kai Leung's Pek Kwar videotapes?

No it isn't.

[The Xia]

Chow Keung demos are always a great watch. He has excellent Jing.

[Green Cloud]

Hey that was very nice how old is that Sifu??? The moves look similar to some of the moves that are in my forms. I'd have to say he was doing more Peck gwa than monkey suff.

But what do I know Rich is the leading authority on Di Sing.

[Flying-Monkey]

Yeah, that was a Pek Kwar form. It looks like two Pek Kwar forms mixed. It could just be the fact that I just don't know the form he is doing.

[Green Cloud]

FM I don't understand isn't this guy in your Sifu's camp???

[Sow Choy]

Master Chow Keung just turned 60... he is fricken awesome... and he can fight...

he is great with weapons and knows how to use the techniques... we spent alot of time developing spear, in a way similar to fencing... was incredible...

The form is not mixed... it is Pek Kwar Lin Wan Jerng, Pek Kwar Continuos Fist... the reason I am sure is I was there and asked him... And was like when you gonna teach me that one... lol...

Really the guy is right out of a shaw bros movie... he has flawless form and can back it all up... almost like pulling a chinese soldier from the old days out of a time machine... he also served in the vietnamese war, in the viet army who was our allies...

Also he is one of the Monkey Kings Champion fighters that took on the Thai boxers back in the 70's... His shins, arms, ribs and even face can take strong hits... He has showed us their version of Ngan Gong or conditioning training... Sick...

If any of you have the chance to train with him or the Monkey King... take it... Great people, great skill...

Joe

[Flying-Monkey]

FM I don't understand isn't this guy in your Sifu's camp???

Yes, he is, but I don't know all of the forms and variations. For example, my Pek Kwar I & II are slightly different than what they teach at the Vancouver school.

[Green Cloud]

Master Chow Keung just turned 60... he is fricken awesome... and he can fight...

he is great with weapons and knows how to use the techniques... we spent alot of time developing spear, in a way similar to fencing... was incredible...

The form is not mixed... it is Pek Kwar Lin Wan Jerng, Pek Kwar Continuos Fist... the reason I am sure is I was there and asked him... And was like when you gonna teach me that one... lol...

Really the guy is right out of a shaw bros movie... he has flawless form and can back it all up... almost like pulling a chinese soldier from the old days out of a time machine... he also served in the vietnamese war, in the viet army who was our allies...

Also he is one of the Monkey Kings Champion fighters that took on the Thai boxers back in the 70's... His shins, arms, ribs and even face can take strong hits... He has showed us their version of Ngan Gong or conditioning training... Sick...

If any of you have the chance to train with him or the Monkey King... take it... Great people, great skill...

Joe

yes I agree he is ausome an at the age of 60 he moves a lot better than a 20 year old.

[Flying-Monkey]

Who are your sifu and sigung?

[The Xia]

Master Chow Keung just turned 60... he is fricken awesome... and he can fight...

he is great with weapons and knows how to use the techniques... we spent alot of time developing spear, in a way similar to fencing... was incredible...

The form is not mixed... it is Pek Kwar Lin Wan Jerng, Pek Kwar Continuos Fist... the reason I am sure is I was there and asked him... And was like when you gonna teach me that one... lol...

Really the guy is right out of a shaw bros movie... he has flawless form and can back it all up... almost like pulling a chinese soldier from the old days out of a time machine... he also served in the vietnamese war, in the viet army who was our allies...

Also he is one of the Monkey Kings Champion fighters that took on the Thai boxers back in the 70's... His shins, arms, ribs and even face can take strong hits... He has showed us their version of Ngan Gong or conditioning training... Sick...

If any of you have the chance to train with him or the Monkey King... take it... Great people, great skill...

Joe
Interesting info on a great martial artist Sow Choy. I think we should make a "stories" thread for the Tai Shing Pek War guys.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Does anyone know how many Tai Shing Pek Kwar instructors there are in the world currently? Is the Vancouver school still open? I have been unable to find current information on a school there.

[Flying-Monkey]

Who are your sifu and sigung?
Why are you ignoring this question?

[CLFNole]

Chan Sifu is still in Vancouver.

[SifuAbel]

Why are you ignoring this question?


and you are................?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

and you are................?

Exactly! Thanks for the support!
Flying Monkey sent me several PMs asking me to post info on the style I practice. I was reticent to do this because of the nature of some of his posts I had read here. Still, I posted a generous amount of information on our style. I specifically said what I would not post. He has ignored my desire for privacy. I have no desire to post my personal information, nor the personal information of my instructors on an open forum.
I have seen far too many flame wars at this website. I don't care to be a part of any.
When I began martial arts back in the late 60's people were respectful. You didn't pester instructors for information they were unwilling to give. You didn't pester your elders either. We worked on a basis of common courtesy.
I know instructors from three other lineages of Monkey style who will not post on this forum for the same reason I give little information.
If you look at the people who are pestering me for information you will see they do not give their name, current location, or any personal information. So why should I give personal information????
I need no one at this site's blessing or approval for what I teach or how I learned. Only my students have a right to this knowledge.

[Flying-Monkey]

I am Richard Morris. I am 30. My style is TSPK. I currently live in Osaka Japan. I am an English teacher. My teacher's are Sigung Chan Sau Chung and Sifu Chan Kai Leung. I going on my seventh year of being in TSPK. Before TSPK, I studied other monkey styles. However, they seemed incomplete or made-up. I also studied a little Tang soo do, TKD, and other Kung fu styles.

I didn't ask for credit card info. I only asked for your teachers name. Now, I am the bad guy for asking a question.

Now it is your turn.

[SifuAbel]

Too little , too late. So we are supposed to jump because you ask? BS on that noise.

Who died and made you the Monkey lineage nazi?

Wow, now I know your name and how little you actually know. Now I care even less to answer you.

So the answer is, "and you are.........?" Nobody special.

[The Xia]

What is wrong with inquiring about lineage? :confused:

[MonkeyKingUSA]

What is wrong with inquiring about lineage? :confused:

The Xia,
There is nothing wrong with asking about lineage. However, if someone says that it is a private matter. It should be left at that.
In the past I have freely given out that type of information on the Net. Past instructors and their families did not like being pestered by strangers who wanted to "verify" my information. Now only my students get this information.
As I tell my children, "If someone has not sat in our home and eaten at our table, they are a stranger".

Richard,
Thank you for the information! My name is Richard A. Tolson. I have been in MA for 38 years, and Monkey style for about 30 years. I have had the priviledge of studying three styles of Monkey. Nu Hou Quan is the style I have chosen to teach.
Oh, and I work in the medical profession.

BTW, this will be my last post in this thread. Those who are interested in talking about or comparing Monkey techniques or theories can PM me.
Regards,
Richard

[Flying-Monkey]

Too little , too late. So we are supposed to jump because you ask? BS on that noise.

Who died and made you the Monkey lineage nazi?

Wow, now I know your name and how little you actually know. Now I care even less to answer you.

So the answer is, "and you are.........?" Nobody special.

You are the biggest d!ck on this forum. When MonkeykingUSA shared his monkey history, what negative thing did I write? I did not write a thing. I just asked who his teachers were. When many others and I asked you about your style, we get a smartass answer or no answer at all.

The "I know but I am not telling is played out, Abel.":rolleyes:

It is a thread about monkey styles. You claim to know it, so why don't you share?

[SifuAbel]

You are the biggest d!ck on this forum.

No, I think you have me beat on that one.


The Xia,
There is nothing wrong with asking about lineage. However, if someone says that it is a private matter. It should be left at that.




and you are................?

Exactly! Thanks for the support!
Flying Monkey sent me several PMs asking me to post info on the style I practice. I was reticent to do this because of the nature of some of his posts I had read here. Still, I posted a generous amount of information on our style. I specifically said what I would not post. He has ignored my desire for privacy. I have no desire to post my personal information, nor the personal information of my instructors on an open forum.


Apparently, english teachers in other countries aren't required reading comprehension and retention to earn a degree.

You are NOBODY to press anyone here for information. As far I'm concerned you are an upstart student of a student of a student that thinks WAY too highly of himself.

The previous thread may be gone, but that doesn't erase memory. You've already called what I do " video store" monkey". So I have even less interest in indulging your petty whims.

To borrow from todays crime vernacular, you are no longer a "person of interest". I couldn't care less if you knew who I was or what I practiced. Just as I, and quite a few others, don't care who you are and what you have to say.

Since day one you've come on here with a cock of the walk attitude. Frankly, its pathetic.

Have a nice day, buh bye. Don't let the cyber door hit you on the cyber ass on the way out.

Mocca-mocca su su Ama!

Kuso shinezo!

( a few choice words from our friends at http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/index.htm) NSFW!!!!

[Flying-Monkey]

No, I think you have me beat on that one.





Apparently, english teachers in other countries aren't required reading comprehension and retention to earn a degree.

You are NOBODY to press anyone here for information. As far I'm concerned you are an upstart student of a student of a student that thinks WAY too highly of himself.

The previous thread may be gone, but that doesn't erase memory. You've already called what I do " video store" monkey". So I have even less interest in indulging your petty whims.

To borrow from todays crime vernacular, you are no longer a "person of interest". I couldn't care less if you knew who I was or what I practiced. Just as I, and quite a few others, don't care who you are and what you have to say.

Since day one you've come on here with a cock of the walk attitude. Frankly, its pathetic.

Have a nice day, buh bye. Don't let the cyber door hit you on the cyber ass on the way out.

Mocca-mocca su su Ama!

Kuso shinezo!

( a few choice words from our friends at http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/index.htm) NSFW!!!!

It is funny you feel that way. Years ago, I pm you a you told me you like stirring up trouble. I just have a passion for my style.

**** of the walk? Show me the post. If you were refering to the old monkey thread, I was just stating my experience in monkey kung fu as a whole. If you felt I was mistaken. You could have stated examples. There are many post where you are being a C0CK. All one has to do is look at any debate you had with Knife or Ross. Many times, what you write doesn't make sense.

As for MonkeykingUSA, he is choosing not to tell us where he learned monkey. Did I write that he is a fake because of that? No. I just think it is strange. If I walk into a school and ask "where did you learn this" or "Who was you teacher?" And the person said that it was a secret. Warning lights would go up. You know if it was a different situation you would agree.

[godzillakungfu]

No. I just think it is strange. If I walk into a school and ask "where did you learn this" or "Who was you teacher?" And the person said that it was a secret. Warning lights would go up. You know if it was a different situation you would agree.Yes, if I went into a school.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Internet questions do not equal a school.

Wow. Uhmmm did you miss this part?


In the past I have freely given out that type of information on the Net. Past instructors and their families did not like being pestered by strangers who wanted to "verify" my information. Now only my students get this information.

He explains why he doesn't give info on the net. I don't understand the problem.

[FatherDog]

I find it interesting that no one in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, etc minds telling you who their coach was.

[Flying-Monkey]

Yes, if I went into a school.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Internet questions do not equal a school.

Wow. Uhmmm did you miss this part?



He explains why he doesn't give info on the net. I don't understand the problem.

No. I did not miss that part. Asking who taught you is not trying to verify his kung fu. You forgot that this is a forum to share. It can also be for getting to know someone. A lot of kung fu cats wear their sifu's name like a badge of honor. It seems strange to hide "who" taught you or where you learned something.

[godzillakungfu]

No. I did not miss that part. Asking who taught you is not trying to verify his kung fu. You forgot that this is a forum to share. It can also be for getting to know someone. A lot of kung fu cats wear their sifu's name like a badge of honor. It seems strange to hide "who" taught you or where you learned something.I forget nothing. There is no rule that you must share information.
You add more to this forum than is necessary.

It is a discussion forum nothing more nothing less. People choose to share and they choose what they share.

I asked Sifu Abel where he learned his monkey. He gave me a smart alec answer "my teacher."

Cool I just leave his lineage alone.

Others I have asked have been forth coming.


If he had a bad run in with internet people, it is silly to give out information.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise. He did give his full name which, goes a long way in my book.

[Sow Choy]

As far as I know...

Chan Kai Leung does not teach anymore, Chan Sau Chung is retired with maybe a few private students... I do not believe there is a TSPK school anymore there, originally the idea was Chan Kai Leung would run it, and his father only oversee things, but Chan Kai Leung pursued what he studied in college, accounting I believe...

Who can blame him, he just got married and kung fu isn't a great way to pay the bills, especially the way Hong Kong schools are... If they follow the karate way maybe, but they wouldn't like that way...

MKUSA, I will call Chan sifu to see if its ok I give his number to you, I only have his cell, so let me call him 1st...

As far as lineage, real or fake, etc... I don't think anyone should be ashamed of their sifu or school, and I also think you shouldn't hide behind your sifus name or school either... If you are serious about kung fu, be a part of the movement that actually does something... Like fight in an open circuit against other styles... or train people to fight...

Don't be another star trek fan only talkin about nonsense... like old dead chinese masters, what about now? whats goin on now? how about making some stories ourselves?

I just hope all the kung fu peeps will wake up and stop worrying about lineage and forms, blah blah blah... Meantime you have these MMA people hoping to fight us in the cage so they can have another easy win on their way to the top...

Every kung fu school promotes self-defense which is the pc way of saying fighting... So lets all do our part and step up to the plate one way or another, as a fighter. coach, promoter...

So much we all can learn and share with each other...

Joe

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Sow Choy,
Thank you!
I certainly understand Chan Kai Leung's need to put his family first. That is also why I do not teach commercially. I do it out of love for the art.
My students have commercial schools and I have no problem with that. It just isn't for me right now.
I think that you raise excellent points. However, I am content to teach people how to defend themselves. I don't think tournament fighting is necessary for that goal. Though as I mentioned in another thread, I am currently in training to start competing again at age 48. I think my students and their students need to be reminded that what we do really works in many different ways. :)

[SifuAbel]

I find it interesting that no one in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, judo, etc minds telling you who their coach was.

As usual, foot in mouth and ass backwards.

Like you even know whats going on.

[The Xia]

A lot of kung fu cats wear their sifu's name like a badge of honor. It seems strange to hide "who" taught you or where you learned something.
I agree. It's even stranger because MonkeyKingUSA's lineage is posted on the internet already.

[Knifefighter]

I asked Sifu Abel where he learned his monkey. He gave me a smart alec answer "my teacher."

Abel will never tell you that info.

However, if you must know, most of it came right from bad kung fu movies and the rest is made up BS.

His "lineage" is mostly himself.

[FatherDog]

As usual, foot in mouth and ass backwards.

Like you even know whats going on.

I really don't care what's going on; I just think it's silly.

[SifuAbel]

LOL @ the last two clowns!!!

[FatherDog]

LOL @ the last two clowns!!!

What possible legitimate reason could someone have to conceal who their sifu was?

[Knifefighter]

What possible legitimate reason could someone have to conceal who their sifu was?
Funny how many people around here do that.

Maybe because they are mostly self-taught.

[tattooedmonk]

....with the guys here that do not share their lineage information. In the past you did not go around bragging as to who your sifu or sigung was.

this could bring about trouble for student,the school, the master.

I think that this is more of an american custom...all fueled by ego.

as long as the person represents the art properly and is not lying or cheating anyone what is the difference??

I am opening my own school this next year.

For the last 3 years I have been studying from very reputable sigungs/ sifus in various kung fu styles to add to my base art which I did for 15 years.

I am not doing a mish mosh of stuff I am teaching whole systems both internal and external.

This is all in addition to my previous years in Japanese arts ( totaling 25 years of experience)

I am not listing any of these masters for various reasons . The art speaks for it's self.

I believe in Taoist practice of anonymity. All this lineage bragging does is fuel the ego . :D

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by FatherDog
What possible legitimate reason could someone have to conceal who their sifu was?:confused:





Maybe because they are mostly self-taught. what legitimate reason does anyone have to brag about their lineage.??

does it prove anything??

just because you were taught by a legitimate master does not mean that you will be a good martial artist now does it?

I know plenty of guys who are self taught and can kick a lot of @$$.

All you keyboard martial artist put to much emphasis on non intrinsic things and are too caught up in the b.s. GET A CLUE!!

[Knifefighter]

.
this could bring about trouble for student,the school, the master.
Or the person who is claiming to study from the master when, in actuality, he has only learned from tapes from said master or completely made up his own stuff.

[tattooedmonk]

Or the person who is claiming to study from the master when, in actuality, he has only learned from tapes from said master or completely made up his own stuff. This is an assumption on your part. he never said that he learned from any specific master. as you can see it is a hybrid of other styles.

did you not read the whole post?? I said if they are lying or cheating it is wrong.

if he learned from a video then did he not learn from the master.... indirectly??

[Knifefighter]

what legitimate reason does anyone have to brag about their lineage.??
does it prove anything??
We're not talking about bragging. We are talking about answering the question when it is asked. It's not bragging if someone asks you. If anything, it usually means the person is trying to hide the fact that he is making exaggerated claims when he doesn't answer this question.

You are right that studying under someone doesn't necessarily make one good. However, if one is going to claim to have learned a system, they should be able to state under whom and for how long. Waffling around in this respect is very, very suspect. There are many people who claim to have studied styles, when in fact they have only learned from tapes or completely on their own.

When I claim to be a BJJ black belt and somebody wants to know which instructor promoted me to black and how long it took me, I should have no problem answering that. It has nothing to do with bragging.

[Knifefighter]

if he learned from a video then did he not learn from the master.... indirectly??
Learning from videos is much different from learning in person. If one is making the claim to have studied a system, but learned it from tapes, he should be prepared to state this... otherwise, it is misrepresentation.

[Knifefighter]

I am not doing a mish mosh of stuff I am teaching whole systems both internal and external.
Since you are claiming to teach whole systems, rather than a mish-mash, people would want to know under whom you studied each system and for how long.

If, for example, you are claiming to teach three entire systems, each averaging 8 years to learn, it would be a legitimate question (and reason to answer) under whom you studied each of these styles and for how long. This way prospective students would be able to check with the said master to verify whether, you really did take the required time to learn the system.

Not answering these types of questions should make prospective students very wary of fraud.

[tattooedmonk]

We're not talking about bragging. We are talking about answering the question when it is asked. It's not bragging if someone asks you. If anything, it usually means the person is trying to hide the fact that he is making exaggerated claims when he doesn't answer this question.

You are right that studying under someone doesn't necessarily make one good. However, if one is going to claim to have learned a system, they should be able to state under whom and for how long. Waffling around in this respect is very, very suspect. There are many people who claim to have studied styles, when in fact they have only learned from tapes or completely on their own.

When I claim to be a BJJ black belt and somebody wants to know which instructor promoted me to black and how long it took me, I should have no problem answering that. It has nothing to do with bragging. my masters call it bragging.

it should be up to the person as to whether they want to reveal this information or not.

I do not believe it adds any credibility to the person to claim who their master is...like I said the proof is in the art.

did you ever think that for one reason or another they can not make claims to a certain master because of lets say a falling out with said master??

or that their master prefers anonymity?? not everyone who is a master wants recognition or fame or money........ other than to have good students and a way to pass on the art to the next generation.

and if they did learn from tapes then what is wrong with that ??

I know many people with previous martial arts experience who have learned forms from video and performed and could apply them better than what was on the tape.

...so what does this really mean??

as long as it works for them what is the difference?? too many people worry about what others are doing and are not concerned enough with what they are doing.

if you are going around telling people that you are a black belt in BJJ then you are bragging.

belt or no belt stating your teachers name and lineage or not sure as hell is not going to get it done in a street confrontation now is it??

and that is what this is all really about ...whether it is effective or not....right??

[Knifefighter]

and if they did learn from tapes then what is wrong with that ??
It's not the same as learning in person. That's the reason that almost all athletes at every level have coaches. Otherwise they could just practice and learn on their own.



and that is what this is all really about ...whether it is effective or not....right??
This thread was about the history of MKF, not whether or not it is effective. Lineage questions are very relevant to this thread.

[Knifefighter]

did you ever think that for one reason or another they can not make claims to a certain master because of lets say a falling out with said master??
Falling out or no falling out, if you studied with someone for 10 years, you studied with someone for 10 years. If your style is legitimate, there should be any number of people who could verify the fact that you studied under a certain instructor for any length of time.


or that their master prefers anonymity??
Sounds suspisious to me. An instructor who is teaching students, but doesn't want anyone to know who he is... maybe he is the fraud.



if you are going around telling people that you are a black belt in BJJ then you are bragging.
No, I am stating a fact. It's only bragging when it isn't relevant to the conversation.

[tattooedmonk]

Since you are claiming to teach whole systems, rather than a mish-mash, people would want to know under whom you studied each system and for how long.

If, for example, you are claiming to teach three entire systems, each averaging 8 years to learn, it would be a legitimate question (and reason to answer) under whom you studied each of these styles and for how long. This way prospective students would be able to check with the said master to verify whether, you really did take the required time to learn the system.

Not answering these types of questions should make prospective students very wary of fraud.
if I can teach and perform the art what is the difference?? I dare anyone to come into my kwoon and challenge and a sign of disrespect.

.....because that is what it is.

going to a persons master and asking them as to this teachers qualifications is disrespectful and shows a lack of trust.

completely unacceptable in my opinion.

I turn people away that ask a bunch of QUESTIONS ARE NOT IMPORTANT.

If the prospective student knows anything about the style as soon as they talk to the teacher they will know whether or not they are a fraud or not.

doubt and question create resistance .I do not need to have student coming in with ego and resistance.

if people want to really learn about martial arts they are not really concerned with lineage.

you know I talk to many martial arts masters and they never talk about lineage they only talk about the art. to them all that matters is if you do the art correctly of not.

only newbies ( anyone under master) care about non intrinsic information.

This info is only passed down to devoted, loyal disciples.

with my students they only learn the basics of stances, kicks ,punches ,and blocks ,for the first 2 years. they are all basically the same in all styles anyway.

so why make claims about what linage you have if your students are not going to see those forms until at least 2 years in.

most people can not even last that long so why waste your energy?

if they want to know this info they will have to at least wait for two years.

this is old school

[tattooedmonk]

It's not the same as learning in person. That's the reason that almost all athletes at every level have coaches. Otherwise they could just practice and learn on their own.



This thread was about the history of MKF, not whether or not it is effective. Lineage questions are very relevant to this thread. I did not say that it was the same....

why is it lineage relevant??

does who they learned it from change the fact that they can or can not perform their art well??

if they have the forms and can perform and teach it well the lineage does not matter.

and no this is not about the histiory..... it is about monkey kung fu period and whether it is effective or not is the ONLY thing that matters.

is claiming the history or the stries or anything else going to help you use your monkey kung fu??

[tattooedmonk]

Falling out or no falling out, if you studied with someone for 10 years, you studied with someone for 10 years. If your style is legitimate, there should be any number of people who could verify the fact that you studied under a certain instructor for any length of time.


Sounds suspisious to me. An instructor who is teaching students, but doesn't want anyone to know who he is... maybe he is the fraud.



No, I am stating a fact. It's only bragging when it isn't relevant to the conversation. Why does anyone need someone else to verify their claims.

The art should speak for it's self.

Why is it suspicious that someone does not want any credit or notoriety for their deeds or skills??

What does giving information about your teachers tell your students about you???? NOTHING!!

How is stating the fact that you are a black belt in BJJ relevant in any conversation??

EGO has no place in chinese martial arts.

[Knifefighter]

i
going to a persons master and asking them as to this teachers qualifications is disrespectful and shows a lack of trust.
No, it is due dilligence. It is one of the way prospective students can keep from getting bamboozled by frauds.



I turn people away that ask a bunch of QUESTIONS ARE NOT IMPORTANT.
Good luck running a school that way. You are in for a rude awakening. Can you imagine if your local computer store had that attitude?


If the prospective student knows anything about the style as soon as they talk to the teacher they will know whether or not they are a fraud or not.
How will they know that? If they already know that much about the system, they are probably already training it somewhere else.




if people want to really learn about martial arts they are not really concerned with lineage.
Maybe more people should be. Most people are too easily impressed by the guy who walks out wearing his 12 dollar black belt.

[Knifefighter]

if they have the forms and can perform and teach it well the lineage does not matter.

and no this is not about the histiory..... it is about monkey kung fu period and whether it is effective or not is the ONLY thing that matters.

How is performing/teaching forms going to show if someone's MKF is effective or not?


doubt and question create resistance .I do not need to have student coming in with ego and resistance.
This info is only passed down to devoted, loyal disciples.
Now things are becoming clearer... can you say cult?
I think I can see why you wouldn't want to provide your lineage.

[tattooedmonk]

No, it is due dilligence. It is one of the way prospective students can keep from getting bamboozled by frauds.



Good luck running a school that way. You are in for a rude awakening. Can you imagine if your local computer store had that attitude?


How will they know that? If they already know that much about the system, they are probably already training it somewhere else.




Maybe more people should be. Most people are too easily impressed by the guy who walks out wearing his 12 dollar black belt.


Now things are becoming clearer... can you say cult?
I think I can see why you wouldn't want to provide your lineage.

if you spend time with any teacher ( 15 minutes or so) you should be able to tell if they are a fraud or not and whether they have experience or not in said style.

even if you paid for a month or two to find out more what would be the real loss here??

I mean even if they had a legitimate lineage would it matter if a month or two down the line you could kick their @$$???

I get all my students by word of mouth based on my skills not my lineage.

oh and I would be more than happy to share my lineage if I had a reason or a worthy student to share that with....and have.

it is obvious to that you do not understand so I will quit while I am ahead.

keep up your doubt, question, and paranoia...that will help you get far in the world.

[tattooedmonk]

How is performing/teaching forms going to show if someone's MKF is effective or not?


Now things are becoming clearer... can you say cult?
I think I can see why you wouldn't want to provide your lineage. because performing them also includes application. if someone came into myschool and wanted to learn I would hand them a liabilty waiver, get them warmed up ,then show them what any style I teach is all about.

yeah I read it the first time..no comment other than this ......is that the way that you look at the old school way of teaching??:D

[The Xia]

If someone is looking to learn from a teacher of any martial art, that person should check the lineage. tattooedmonk, I don't know where you are getting the notion that lineage talk is a product of American ego and that it is "old school" for only devoted students to learn about lineages. If a sifu claims to teach a style, lineages verify if his claims to the style are false or not. It is true that you should see if he is skilled and if you like his teaching style, but many beginners don't have an eye for that yet. So lineages talk in that regard. Not to mention, any skilled martial artist will have a lineage. I don't care if it is Kung Fu, Brazilian Jujitsu, Karate, Muay Thai, or any other martial art. A good teacher had to have learned it from someone. I also don't see any reason why a good teacher would hide where he learned it from. I wouldn't go to a teacher that refuses to divulge his lineage to prospective students. The message I’d get from this is that he is trying to pull a fast one. Lastly, you can learn the lineages of real deal sifus by asking them, asking others, or even looking it up.

[Baqualin]

Lets get back to Monkey Kung Fu.....I was starting to learn some interesting things, until everyone got off on this lineage tangent.....oops, I guess that was part of what I'm learning....all have major issues.:cool:

[lkfmdc]

1. Old school TCMA people ALWAYS want to know who your teacher is and your lineage....

2. People who throw out the "bragging" thing usually don't have much to talk about on their own end

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Lets get back to Monkey Kung Fu.....I was starting to learn some interesting things, until everyone got off on this lineage tangent.....oops, I guess that was part of what I'm learning....all have major issues.:cool:


LOL!!!

6 pages and 90 posts later, after being pestered to give information about our style which I wasn't really interested in posting in the first place, I have given more information about the style that I practice than anyone else here as given about the style they practice. Yet I am the bad guy and possible fraud because I refuse to be badgered into putting information in this thread that I choose not to write here. This is getting more humorous as it grows. :D

Gee and I thought maybe there would be some intelligent discussion about Monkey techniques and theories. My bad!

[ginosifu]

I have been in martial arts a long time and with a traditional teacher who refuses to change in his ways. One thing I have learned from him is that all of this forum talk junk does amount to a hill of beans. You guys are questioning someone about his teachers but you will never go to his location and watch how he moves or see if his style is any good. You will never train with him because he is too far for most you to travel. So with that... what perpose does it serve to ask about a lineage if you have no real interest in training with him?
Secondly, in my school, I have found that 99% of all people coming thru my door have no clue what kung fu is, have no idea what a lineage is. Could not tell the difference between Japanese or Chinese martial arts. There is no need to these people about lineage because they are ready for it. Now... if a student has trainned for a year maybe 2 and asks where his ancestors come from... yeah you need to tell them where it comes from and who is your teacher.
Anyone that that comes to my door and asks about lineage and teaches is probably one of you guys poking your noses around trying to see what is what.


If anyone wants to learn the monkey lineage... go train with the teacher !If not, who gives a rats #$%^ knowing who his teachers are, will not do you any good if you're just going to sit where you are posting on the forums.

Try training instead of posting :rolleyes:

[godzillakungfu]

I have been in martial arts a long time and with a traditional teacher who refuses to change in his ways. One thing I have learned from him is that all of this forum talk junk does amount to a hill of beans. You guys are questioning someone about his teachers but you will never go to his location and watch how he moves or see if his style is any good. You will never train with him because he is too far for most you to travel. So with that... what perpose does it serve to ask about a lineage if you have no real interest in training with him?
Secondly, in my school, I have found that 99% of all people coming thru my door have no clue what kung fu is, have no idea what a lineage is. Could not tell the difference between Japanese or Chinese martial arts. There is no need to these people about lineage because they are ready for it. Now... if a student has trainned for a year maybe 2 and asks where his ancestors come from... yeah you need to tell them where it comes from and who is your teacher.
Anyone that that comes to my door and asks about lineage and teaches is probably one of you guys poking your noses around trying to see what is what.


If anyone wants to learn the monkey lineage... go train with the teacher !If not, who gives a rats #$%^ knowing who his teachers are, will not do you any good if you're just going to sit where you are posting on the forums.

Try training instead of posting :rolleyes:See, on the internet it is one thing. I don't feel it is anyone's business IMO.

A student, potential or not, has a right to ask this question.

Ahh the obligatory to much posting not enough training.

[Shaolinlueb]

ok

i have to get this off my chest.

i learned my monkey kung fu, by watching the national geographic channel monkey specials while being really really drunk.

so far i have learned and mastered the poo flinging technique.

and flee finding technique in the hair.

i destroyed my living room though by jumping around and screaming like a monkey flinging stuff around.

but when the cops came, i flung poo at them.

they tazed me.

monkey kung fu does work.

-shaolinlueb

[Sow Choy]

The way I look at it...

It should never be looked at as ego... Then you will be suspect of everyone...

Then the sport and practice of the arts will become one of being only in your school...

Our lineage is our family, and what they achieved and worked so hard for should be passed on the next generation... So when I talk to many people at tournaments or gatherings, I see very little ego, I see people who love their kung fu family as a real family, that is how it should be...

And be proud of where you come from... There always haters out there... I see alot of suspect stuff too, I just choose not to say anything and just let people figure it out for themselves... As well as always look for results in our own training...

MKUSA, do what you feel is right of course, I am just responding in light of all the secrecy and excuses in this post...

Let's keep it real...

Joe

[lannei]

monkey styles ?I haven't heartd of it .But i know that there is dragon form kungfu ,tiger form kungfu and so on .

[Baqualin]

monkey styles ?I haven't heartd of it .But i know that there is dragon form kungfu ,tiger form kungfu and so on .

Stick around and you might learn something:rolleyes:

[B-Rad]

This is stupid. Don't you monkey guys have a website? Why didn't you just post post the url for people interested in your style? It's just weird to put something on the net and then refuse to give the info to someone who asks. It's even weirder to act like they're the bad guy for it. It's not traditional, or logical. Being secretive about a non-secret is kind of dumb.



Secondly, in my school, I have found that 99% of all people coming thru my door have no clue what kung fu is, have no idea what a lineage is. Could not tell the difference between Japanese or Chinese martial arts. There is no need to these people about lineage because they are ready for it.
That's exactly why the DO need to know about lineage at least a couple teachers back. They don't know enough to judge skill, and everyone looks like Jet Li or Jackie Chan to them. Being able to research your background is a way to protect from getting taken and forking their money over to a criminal. It's not that hard for someone with beginner level skill to look like some kind of powerful killing machine to non martial artists.

[B-Rad]

monkey styles ?I haven't heartd of it .But i know that there is dragon form kungfu ,tiger form kungfu and so on .
Yup... there's lots of different styles ;) Spend some time browsing the forum archives :)

[Baqualin]

The way I look at it...

It should never be looked at as ego... Then you will be suspect of everyone...

Then the sport and practice of the arts will become one of being only in your school...

Our lineage is our family, and what they achieved and worked so hard for should be passed on the next generation... So when I talk to many people at tournaments or gatherings, I see very little ego, I see people who love their kung fu family as a real family, that is how it should be...

And be proud of where you come from... There always haters out there... I see alot of suspect stuff too, I just choose not to say anything and just let people figure it out for themselves... As well as always look for results in our own training...

MKUSA, do what you feel is right of course, I am just responding in light of all the secrecy and excuses in this post...

Let's keep it real...

Joe

Your family has taught you well.....your video post speak for themselves and your attitude speaks for you.....leading by example is the best way........much respect:cool:
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

I have been in martial arts a long time and with a traditional teacher who refuses to change in his ways. One thing I have learned from him is that all of this forum talk junk does amount to a hill of beans. You guys are questioning someone about his teachers but you will never go to his location and watch how he moves or see if his style is any good. You will never train with him because he is too far for most you to travel. So with that... what perpose does it serve to ask about a lineage if you have no real interest in training with him?
Secondly, in my school, I have found that 99% of all people coming thru my door have no clue what kung fu is, have no idea what a lineage is. Could not tell the difference between Japanese or Chinese martial arts. There is no need to these people about lineage because they are ready for it. Now... if a student has trainned for a year maybe 2 and asks where his ancestors come from... yeah you need to tell them where it comes from and who is your teacher.
Anyone that that comes to my door and asks about lineage and teaches is probably one of you guys poking your noses around trying to see what is what.


If anyone wants to learn the monkey lineage... go train with the teacher !If not, who gives a rats #$%^ knowing who his teachers are, will not do you any good if you're just going to sit where you are posting on the forums.

Try training instead of posting :rolleyes: Thanks . ......oh by the way this is their training. :D

[Shaolinlueb]

The way I look at it...

It should never be looked at as ego... Then you will be suspect of everyone...

Then the sport and practice of the arts will become one of being only in your school...

Our lineage is our family, and what they achieved and worked so hard for should be passed on the next generation... So when I talk to many people at tournaments or gatherings, I see very little ego, I see people who love their kung fu family as a real family, that is how it should be...

And be proud of where you come from... There always haters out there... I see alot of suspect stuff too, I just choose not to say anything and just let people figure it out for themselves... As well as always look for results in our own training...

MKUSA, do what you feel is right of course, I am just responding in light of all the secrecy and excuses in this post...

Let's keep it real...

Joe


werd keep it real. people dont like my sigung at all and have called him fake, but skills make a difference.

[The Xia]

MonkeyKingUSA and ginosifu,
No one on this thread called you a fraud, the conversation evolved and other topics were discussed. I still say that it's strange that you don't want to talk about your lineage especially since it's already on the web (http://www.shaolininstitute.com/) but whatever.

As for the other points in your posts.

Secondly, in my school, I have found that 99% of all people coming thru my door have no clue what kung fu is, have no idea what a lineage is. Could not tell the difference between Japanese or Chinese martial arts. There is no need to these people about lineage because they are ready for it. Now... if a student has trainned for a year maybe 2 and asks where his ancestors come from... yeah you need to tell them where it comes from and who is your teacher.
People should do research. Just because many people don't doesn't mean that's the right way to go. The con artists feed on the ignorant. Someone who does some research before learning from a martial arts teacher should ask about lineage before starting because at this point he likely doesn't have the eye to gauge skill and teaching methodology. Therefore, checking lineage is the best option. Even if someone can gauge skill, he should still check the lineage before learning. Personally, I wouldn't go to a teacher that refuses to tell me his lineage up front.

Anyone that that comes to my door and asks about lineage and teaches is probably one of you guys poking your noses around trying to see what is what.
That's quite an assumption. How do you know it's not just someone who did research? If, hypothetically, someone did ask about your lineage before joining, would you tell him?

If anyone wants to learn the monkey lineage... go train with the teacher !If not, who gives a rats #$%^ knowing who his teachers are, will not do you any good if you're just going to sit where you are posting on the forums.
There is nothing wrong with learning about lineages you aren't part of.

Try training instead of posting. :rolleyes:
That line is tired and faulty. Just because someone posts on a forum doesn't mean he doesn't train.

Gee and I thought maybe there would be some intelligent discussion about Monkey techniques and theories. My bad!
This thread is about Monkey Kung Fu in general. It's not limited to techniques and theories. Discussion on history and lineage is also welcome.

[Flying-Monkey]

MonkeyKingUSA and ginosifu,
No one on this thread called you a fraud, the conversation evolved and other topics were discussed. I still say that it's strange that you don't want to talk about your lineage especially since it's already on the web (http://www.shaolininstitute.com/) but whatever.

As for the other points in your posts.

People should do research. Just because many people don't doesn't mean that's the right way to go. The con artists feed on the ignorant. Someone who does some research before learning from a martial arts teacher should ask about lineage before starting because at this point he likely doesn't have the eye to gauge skill and teaching methodology. Therefore, checking lineage is the best option. Even if someone can gauge skill, he should still check the lineage before learning. Personally, I wouldn't go to a teacher that refuses to tell me his lineage up front.

That's quite an assumption. How do you know it's not just someone who did research? If, hypothetically, someone did ask about your lineage before joining, would you tell him?

There is nothing wrong with learning about lineages you aren't part of.

That line is tired and faulty. Just because someone posts on a forum doesn't mean he doesn't train.

This thread is about Monkey Kung Fu in general. It's not limited to techniques and theories. Discussion on history and lineage is also welcome.

I agree 100%.

[Flying-Monkey]

If someone is looking to learn from a teacher of any martial art, that person should check the lineage. tattooedmonk, I don't know where you are getting the notion that lineage talk is a product of American ego and that it is "old school" for only devoted students to learn about lineages. If a sifu claims to teach a style, lineages verify if his claims to the style are false or not. It is true that you should see if he is skilled and if you like his teaching style, but many beginners don't have an eye for that yet. So lineages talk in that regard. Not to mention, any skilled martial artist will have a lineage. I don't care if it is Kung Fu, Brazilian Jujitsu, Karate, Muay Thai, or any other martial art. A good teacher had to have learned it from someone. I also don't see any reason why a good teacher would hide where he learned it from. I wouldn't go to a teacher that refuses to divulge his lineage to prospective students. The message I’d get from this is that he is trying to pull a fast one. Lastly, you can learn the lineages of real deal sifus by asking them, asking others, or even looking it up.

I agree with Knife too.

[ginosifu]

Let me clarify.
Anyone coming thru my door is allowed to ask about lineages. I will answer everyone truthfully and give as much info as I have to give.

100% of the people that came to my door and actually started training, never asked about lineage. It is not common for laymen people to know what a lineage is or if it even important to to know. The people that ask about my lineage and who my teachers are... NEVER TRAIN..REPEAT.. NEVER JOIN MY SCHOOL.

The only peple that know that a lineage may be important are those who have some info about Chinese Martial Arts or those who have Trained with a Chinese Martial Arts School and was given this info.

Here are my lineages:

NORTHERN SHAOLIN:
KWONG WING LAM
JOHN ERVIN
ginosifu

HUNG GAR:
KWONG WING LAM
JOHN ERVIN
ginosifu

SUN STYLE TAI CHI:
KWONG WING LAM
JOHN ERVIN
ginosifu

YANG STYLE TAI CHI:
CHEN MAN CHING
WILLIAM C.C.CHEN
JIM HOLZ
ginosifu

PAO TING SHUAI CHIAO:
CHANG TUNG SHENG
WENG CHI HSIU
JOHN ERVIN
ginosifu

ANGRY MONKEY:
MONKEYKINGUSA
ginosifu

I am not afraid of telling peeps my stuff but it is really not that imortant unless you are in that system. If you want to research a teacher or his lineage, it really will not help you a whole lot even if you got info on his or her teachers. Let me explain:

Just because you can see someones lineage does not mean they are a good teacher. Also just because a teacher's lineage is not famous or well known does not mean that the teachers style is no good. Many small or small family systems are just as good as any well known systems, but you never here about them because they keep there info private or noone has come out right and spoke about them.

The only really true way to reseach about a teacher is to go train with them. If their style or teaching method suits you, stick with it. Alot of teachers offer introductory programs like 1 week, or 1 month etc etc. Try someone out and see what skills they posses. If you trully like a teacher and their method, what difference does it make if their style is legit or not?

Some people say they're some rip off artists out there. Yes this is true, but what alot of are not realizing is that if someone is happy in a system (whether it's legit or not) let them stay. People do get ripped off, I understand that, but alot of people are happy doing what ever junk they are doing.

If you are only interested in training with someone with a famous lineage, you maybe missing out a great system that might best thing you NEVER had.

One more thing.. Not to complain about you guys and all of this forum stuff. The only reason I evern looked at this forum was because MonkeyKingUSA asked me to take a look at this Monkey Thread.

I come from a line of teachers who consider this is not good for your training. If there is time for you to sit down and type for an hour maybe 2, this time should have been spent training. If there was true sharing of methods and techniques and training styles there might be hope for forums, but right now it looks like everyone is fighting and arguing about their styles.... .

Another thing about Traditional Chinese Kung Fu: I come from a traditional kung fu family where it is disrespectful to ask such questions about lineage to a Kung Fu Sifu (Shifu). If I was to ask who was your teacher? or Can you verify your lineage?, My teacher would have said pleave leave.... and don't let the door hit you in ass on the way out. Chinese kung fu teachers come from a different ethnic / cultural heritage where it is dis respectful to ask those kind of questions.

Traditional methods to getting a Kung Fu Sifu to reveal his lineage:

1)
Out right challenge him... if you beat him... then he sucks and do not need to train with him.

2)
Kow Tow 3 times and beg to be his student.

Modern method !

1)
The more modern way is to ask for a trial lesson, introductory course or private lessons and see what the teachers all about. Those of you with advanced martial art skills would be able to tell if he's a fraud or not. Then if you like what they have to offer, join their school or start training with them and eventually they will give you all of the lineage info you need.

[Knifefighter]

I come from a line of teachers who consider this is not good for your training. If there is time for you to sit down and type for an hour maybe 2, this time should have been spent training. If there was true sharing of methods and techniques and training styles there might be hope for forums, but right now it looks like everyone is fighting and arguing about their styles.... .
Very true... posting on forums is pretty much a waste of time, but so is much of what many people spend their time doing- whether it is watching television, playing video games or taking naps. We could all probably find more productive ways to spend our time in many areas of our lives.

That being said, if one is going to post and represent himself as an expert, he should be able to provide some kind of background as to what makes him so. Listing one's lineage is one way to provide some type of back up as to whether what he is saying is reliable.

There are people who post here who represent themselves as CMA experts, but have probably only trained for a few years, if at all, under someone who really knew CMA.

Here's a question for you:
Would it bother you if someone posted on here claiming to be an expert in the styles that you teach, but had never actually trained in those styles?

[ginosifu]

Here's a question for you:
Would it bother you if someone posted on here claiming to be an expert in the styles that you teach, but had never actually trained in those styles?

Yes... it does bother me and my teacher and probably alot of other traditional TCMA peeps, However! Usually these individuals who are frauds end up with their feet in their mouth because they really do not have the full training / Info / Skills etc etc. neccessary to continue as bonified Kung Fu Instructors.

These so called Kung Fu teachers who claim that they teach Eagle Claw... Hung Gar... or whatever... are not going to last long in the sense that when their students get to a high enough level (if they ever do), they will realize what they have is not real.

My teacher and I feel that we should let these guys just get themselves into their own trouble on their own. There is no need to try and bash them or call them out as fraud. They will eventually fade away and make way for true and honorable kung fu peeps.

Myself.... I do not consider myself an expert or even a master. Just a person who loves to teach kung fu here in Cleveland, Ohio. My reputation here speaks for itself. Whether I am expert or not does not matter when my students respect and treat me for what I am.

:o

[B-Rad]

Another thing about Traditional Chinese Kung Fu: I come from a traditional kung fu family where it is disrespectful to ask such questions about lineage to a Kung Fu Sifu (Shifu). If I was to ask who was your teacher? or Can you verify your lineage?, My teacher would have said pleave leave.... and don't let the door hit you in ass on the way out. Chinese kung fu teachers come from a different ethnic / cultural heritage where it is dis respectful to ask those kind of questions.
Just curious how many traditional Chinese teachers you actually have significant experience with? Honestly, I've never come across a Chinese teacher who considered it rude to ask about a lineage. Maybe rude if he kept getting pestered about it over and over and over (but that would hardly be a uniquely Chinese pet peave"). The Chinese that I know are ALWAYS asking who you trained with. It's an innocent question, and they find it interesting conversation, just like a lot of people on this board. You and your teacher have caused a lot of problems though from just downright odd behavior. This whole asking about lineage being rude thing seems more of an odd trait from your particular family rather than a Chinese cultural trait and maybe if you can understand that, you can keep from making these kind of arguments such a big deal. Quite frankly, you've been a bit rude yourself making assumptions about people you've never met. I don't think you realize how many people here have or had traditional Chinese teachers, Chinese friends, spouses, have spent good amounts of time in China/Taiwan/Hong Kong etc, or are Chinese themselves :p Also, on your insult about people having too much time on their hands... Have you ever heard of IT jobs? People with injuries? People who actually have free time outside of training (there ARE 24 hours in a day you know ;))?

[B-Rad]

They will eventually fade away and make way for true and honorable kung fu peeps.
It'd be nice, but it rarely works out that way :p Outing them isn't going to end their business, but it does prevent some raw newbies from making a poor choice. I think you underestimate how many people actually use the internet to check things out before trying. Of course there's a right way, and a wrong way, to out a fraud :)

[ginosifu]

Just curious how many traditional Chinese teachers you actually have significant experience with? Honestly, I've never come across a Chinese teacher who considered it rude to ask about a lineage. Maybe rude if he kept getting pestered about it over and over and over (but that would hardly be a uniquely Chinese pet peave").

Just to let you know, the teacher I am talking about is not MonkeyKingUSA. It is another teacher. The Type of Chinese teacher I am talking about was when I first started training. Alot of Asian people have opened up and may be ready to tell anyone different things, However there are still many old school people out there who do not follow the modern ways.

Yes you are correct saying there are Chinese teachers out that will answer klineage questions and such. I am saying that there are still old school teachers out that wish to be respected.

Lets respect people wishes.

The internet stuff. People may look on the internet and research but that does not anything to a school owner like myself. Those people that surf the net are usually not the ones who join schools (well atleast in the last 15 years or so that I can remember). No One that has found me by the net joins... there usually not the type that wants to train hard... work up a sweat etc etc etc... I am sorry but the internet people do not concern me. They don't join my school, They do not pay my rent or do they increase or decrease the amount of people coming thru my door. They may like to do alot of research but thats about it. No disrespect to you B-Rad, I understand alot stuff may upset people but reality can do that to a person.

[tattooedmonk]

that not everyone who has legitimate claims to a style has a commercial school and /or can be verified by searching the net.

Quit frankly most of the people that have commercial schools are not the best in their given field of knowledge.

Many of my masters are outraged by the commercialism of the arts and believe that in many ways that it is diluting and destroying the very meaning of them.

Some of the people I see on this thread all the time could not possibly have anytime to train because they are always online posting some nonsense ,are very opinionated, and biased.

I do not know what your definition of real kung fu / TCMA but this is not it.

I can also tell you that the duality of our existance tells us that just because someone does not want to reveal their information, ( especially seeing as a lot of you have a tendancy to take it way to far by getting into other peoples business),does not mean that they are not a legitimate teacher, nor does the fact that some makes claims about being connected to so and so means that they are.

The ideas of many on this forum of what is real and what is not is just rediculous.

[Sow Choy]

BQ,

Thanks for the compliments...

I think everyone should take a breath and treat this post more lightly, no one has been called a fraud... MKUSA wanted to share some info about his monkey style, he has been very nice, if he doesnt feel comfortable about lineage and what people say, end of story... He has put some info on their training, anyone wanna share their techniques or comment...

To generalise like many of you do about chinese masters or commercial schools is somewhat ignorant, if you're not sure about something either admit it or be silent. No one hear is perfect, try not to kid yourself, it may be ok to lie to others, but don't lie to yourself... joke ;)

Reminds me of the silly rumor of Northern Chinese have different stances cause of the mountains and southern Chinese were in small villages fighting... Hahaha! Most of those people never been to China... And most of us have to accept the stories of our lineage... Where any of us there? How can we really know? So take it with a grain of salt... We are just martial art brothers having a discussion on Monkey, not on how we perceive our reality of training.

Start another post if you wish to discuss that, so me and the rest who don't care for that topic can not waste time on that subject...

Peace to all...

Joe

[The Xia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeRlZUYcsuA
This video shows the form and some applications.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Another type of monkey form was found in the period. This was created by a physician named Hua Ta. He healed the sick and the weak with breathing exercises and physical movements he called the 5 animal frolics. These 5 animals were the Tiger, Bear, Crane, Deer and the Monkey.

Shaolin-Do teaches these forms. They're called 5 Animal Live/Dead training, learned around 3rd-4th degree. Are we saying SD is the root of some Monkey Fu?:D

Just kiddin' guys--about that last part, that is. Live/Dead training's pretty interesting. But don't even acknowledge this post.

I'm not even here.:o

[tattooedmonk]

Shaolin-Do teaches these forms. They're called 5 Animal Live/Dead training, learned around 3rd-4th degree. Are we saying SD is the root of some Monkey Fu?:D

Just kiddin' guys--about that last part, that is. Live/Dead training's pretty interesting. But don't even acknowledge this post.

I'm not even here.:ohsin tien chi postures as well. they are taught at second black.

[SifuAbel]

Abel will never tell you that info.

However, if you must know, most of it came right from bad kung fu movies and the rest is made up BS.

His "lineage" is mostly himself.

I just caught this. There is a reason why the root word for assume is ass. Because thats where assumptions usually comes from.

Dream on!!! Bwahahahahahahahahaha.
Not only is your pickled mind not remebering when I actually did post this information, you made fun of my picture on his web site stating , "I looked like I was snapping a picture with a giant camera." My info is easily obtainable on the web. It has been stated on here too many times for me to care.

If your intention is genuine I will gladly tell all. Your intention, however, is to simply besmirch and desparage. For that, you and anyone like you can go sit and spin on it.

[Yao Sing]

SifuAbel
I believe I have you on tape monkeying around at the first Lee Koon Hung Tournament. Didn't catch the whole set so it isn't as good as the other clip someone else shot.

Looked pretty good though. Was it you?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

For those of you who actually practice a monkey form or style...
How does what you do set it apart as monkey?
When you are not doing the monkey gesticulations, what do the techniques look like?
Would you feel safe using your monkey techniques to save you or your family's life?
Can you spar with your monkey techniques?
Does your monkey form have specific theories separate from, or emphasized more than in, other arts
Thanks in advance!

[SifuAbel]

For those of you who actually practice a monkey form or style...
How does what you do set it apart as monkey? Monkey is a versatile style. The different monkey characters fight very differently. In each however there are many grasping, pulling, climbing and grounding techniques as well as many decpetive striking methods.



When you are not doing the monkey gesticulations, what do the techniques look like?

If you mean monkeyshines like in the wushu form, we don't do much of that at all. Most of the hand around the head moves are quick deflections, grasps or pushes.



Would you feel safe using your monkey techniques to save you or your family's life? I would feel safer not putting my family in harms way to begin with.



Can you spar with your monkey techniques?Yes



Does your monkey form have specific theories separate from, or emphasized more than in, other arts
Thanks in advance! Our monkey has lots of striking, obviously, but it is very GnP. It tries to pull the opponent out of his guard and off his balance to a grounded position. It uses evasion to not only avoid a strike but to also find alternate openings. It is not a straight up style.

[SifuAbel]

SifuAbel
I believe I have you on tape monkeying around at the first Lee Koon Hung Tournament. Didn't catch the whole set so it isn't as good as the other clip someone else shot.

Looked pretty good though. Was it you?

Yep, that was me. I would LOVE to see it from another angle. Does anyone else you know have it from another angle?

[Knifefighter]

....when I actually did post this information, you made fun of my picture on his web site stating , "I looked like I was snapping a picture with a giant camera." My info is easily obtainable on the web. It has been stated on here too many times for me to care.
You've never posted any info about your instructor(s) or how long you trained with each. I've never seen you on anyone's web site.

Anytime someone has asked you for this info, you have avoided it.

[SifuAbel]

Thats expected, alzheimers forget quite a bit even from the begining. :rolleyes:

[The Xia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdfiZe6xRr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7hf1rqnsi4

[Sow Choy]

I wanted to share some more videos with you...

These are of myself this past October, performing sets I learned from Master Chow Keung, they are not monkey sets but are Pek Kwar sets...

Hope you enjoy...

Double Hook Swords
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri14lmqdVpk

Continuos Spear - Leen Wan Cheung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJGDN2LykdU

Pek Kwar Double Edge Sword - Pek Kwar Geem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dk2i5b3M1E

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Joe,
Thanks for posting those clips!
Very nice!
I think that spear form was one of the nicest I have seen!

[Shaolinlueb]

Sifu Chow Keung is awesome fo0r his age and i wish someone could find and post video of him in his 20's or 30's. that would be truelly nice. its hard to find masters still performing like that at their age. i know a couple others off the top of my head.

joe i like the spear form you did a lot.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Here is a link to my new website for those who many be interested: http://www.angrymonkeyfist.com
It is not very fancy, but it serves the purpose. Several photos can be found at the blog link at the bottom of the page. If you are unfamiliar with blogs, as I was before I had one, start with the last entries and work your way to the most recent. The information makes more sense that way.
Richard A. Tolson

[hakka jai]

hi folks,
Does anyone know what /where richard dean the monkey stylist in the uk has gone,you dont seem to hear about him anymore????