Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling DVD

[Three Harmonies]

Here is a clip from Tim Cartmell's latest project on standing grappling and counters. One of a kind so far to what I have seen in the MA world. Required material for those wishing to better their game!
Should be available shortly on his site www.shenwu.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuP6cApKAD8

Enjoy,
Jake :)

[Knifefighter]

Kudos to Tim for integrating BJJ into his CMA instruction.

[Three Harmonies]

Actually a lot of the stand up stuff is in CMA, but most people do not know it / train it (I believe you and I have had this talk before ;) ).
I am constantly surprised at the general lack of knowledge of the grappling aspects of CMA when I run into many serious CMA students. It has led me to believe that many teachers / "Masters" have no clue how, so they tell their students that their is no throwing or grappling involved. Can't tell you how many arguments I have had regarding throws in Xing Yi. Sad really.
Thanks for the support Knife Fighter.
Cheers
Jake :)

[Knifefighter]

Actually a lot of the stand up stuff is in CMA,
I'm sure that's true, but many of the techniques demonstrated there were straight out of BJJ 101.

[lkfmdc]

Kudos to Tim for integrating BJJ into his CMA instruction.

I beieve he is actualy a black belt in BJJ (but I cold be wrong?)

[Ben Gash]

I'm sure that's true, but many of the techniques demonstrated there were straight out of BJJ 101.

"If man had 4 arms and 4 legs, then he'd fight differently" Bruce Lee

But yes, Cartmell is a BJJ black belt.

[Knifefighter]

"If man had 4 arms and 4 legs, then he'd fight differently" Bruce Lee
If that was true, there would only be one style of fighting.

[Bugeisha]

There is only one set of principles that apply to fighting; the styles are just systems to teach those principles, although some styles teach some principles more efficiently than others.

I just started reading Tim's stuff a few months ago, and I really like what he's doing. I may have to pick up this DVD before too long. I'm trying to get "Effortless Combat Throws," but its hard to find. I guess I'll have to buy it online :)

[Ray Pina]

Actually a lot of the stand up stuff is in CMA, but most people do not know it / train it ... I am constantly surprised at the general lack of knowledge of the grappling aspects of CMA when I run into many serious CMA students.

Why are you surprised? When was the last time you heard of a CMA winning Grapplers Quest, North American Grapplers Association, Abu Dhabi, etc., etc.

I know CMA has locking and grappling.... no way does it compare to the high level and technicality that BJJ has taken it. To deny this, is to live in a world with blinders on.

Personally, I believe CMA offers the most sophisticated hand system. However, finding someone that can use it and teach it is not so easy.

Either way, Mr. Cartmell is impressive.

[Ben Gash]

If that was true, there would only be one style of fighting.

That is the point of that quote. While there are different flavours and different ways to address the same problem, all effective styles appear fundamentally similar when applied by skilled practitioners. There are basically 2 styles, what works and what doesn't.

[shuaichiao]

I know CMA has locking and grappling.... no way does it compare to the high level and technicality that BJJ has taken it. To deny this, is to live in a world with blinders on.

.

That might be true of the ground technique but not the standing. Bjj leaves a lot to be desired in that area and few if any who practise it are good at takedowns and throws without cross training in another art or learning from a teacher who has cross trained in another art. I believe Cartmells effortless combat throws was written before he began traning in bjj. Either way all that was covered in that book was shuai chaio technique.

[lkfmdc]

Bjj leaves a lot to be desired in that area and few if any who practise it are good at takedowns and throws without cross training in another art or learning from a teacher who has cross trained in another art.


Most of the BJJ based MMA people I know cross train a lot of wrestling and judo, it isn't an issue. THey also cross train striking (boxing and Muay Thai mostly)




I believe Cartmells effortless combat throws was written before he began traning in bjj.



I have the first edition where he thanks Rickson Gracie and the Machados in the intro :D

He's probably attracted to what I like about BJJ, good BJJ these days is about CONCEPTS... that is a form of thinking and training that CMA has lost touch with...

[Ultimatewingchun]

The "deadweight" angles that Cartmell emphasizes are covered quite a bit in the wing chun taught by William Cheung (TWC) - including the use of some sweeps that flow out of certain striking scenarios...and of course are something we train to defend against as well.

[Water Dragon]

I know CMA has locking and grappling.... no way does it compare to the high level and technicality that BJJ has taken it. To deny this, is to live in a world with blinders on.


I know BJJ has throws and take downs in it.... no way does it compare to the high level and technicality that Shuai Chiao has taken it. To deny this, is to live in a world with blinders on.

[Water Dragon]

I'm sure that's true, but many of the techniques demonstrated there were straight out of BJJ 101.


I'm sure that's true, but many of the techniques demonstrated there were straight out of Shuai Chiao 101.

I'm sure that's true, but many of the techniques demonstrated there were straight out of Judo 101.

[Knifefighter]

I'm sure that's true, but many of the techniques demonstrated there were straight out of Judo 101.
Most of the throws and takedowns in BJJ come from Judo and wrestling.

[Water Dragon]

Most of the groundwoirk in BJJ came from Judo too :D

[Ray Pina]

All planes come from the Wright brothers... you wouldn't want to take that on a cross-atlantic trip would you?

TODAY!!!!! That's what matters. Has Shuai Chiau distinguished itself in open grappling tournaments on a high level vs BJJ? I ask because I don't know. I do know that Wing Chun, Hung Gar, etc., do not have a prayer there.

Some Shuai Chiau players trained with my master for a while. I saw some of their stuff.

[GreenCloudCLF]

All planes come from the Wright brothers... you wouldn't want to take that on a cross-atlantic trip would you?


The evolution of martial arts...an often overlooked necessity...Martial Arts shouldn't be static, it needs to evolve like everything else....I think this is where us Kung-Fu people are weakest.

[Three Harmonies]

Tim has never studied Shuai Chiao, Judo, nor Mongolian wrestling. His background can be found on his bio on his site www.shenwu.com . So these techniques are not style specific. His BJJ comes from Cleber Luciano who is also a Judo BB, but does not teach much. Tim's understanding of throws and takedowns come from his Chinese teachers and his own development forged through fighting and sparring. This DVD is a culmination of his understanding of principle, not specific technique.
Once principle is understood it matters not where it came from, nor how many techniques you can do. The principle will give you 10,000 techniques. So in essence the Wright brothers analogy is correct, for without them no one would be flying. Sure we have huge jumbo liners flying through the air today, but they still use the same principle's the Wright brothers used back with Kitty Hawk, even though that plane was a fraction of the size and power as today's jumbo planes!
Some on this board already know what I am talking about, others..... well I sincerely hope many of you can start to see outside of your little boxes and really begin to learn the deeper aspects of your arts.
Cheers
Jake :)

[shuaichiao]

Tim has never studied Shuai Chiao,

Tim's understanding of throws and takedowns come from his Chinese teachers and his own development forged through fighting and sparring.

Kind of contradicting yourself there. Shuai chaio can be the name of a specific martial art but it can also be a generic term for the wrestling techniques from any Chinese system.



I can't speak for others but when I said that all the info from his effortless combat throws book is in shuai chaio I'm just saying that he didn't need to take bjj to learn those principles as others have implied.

[Three Harmonies]

I am not contradicting myself. Tim has never studied THE ART of Shuai Chiao. Jesus are you guys really that argumentative here on KFO!?!?!?
Read my post before...PRINCIPLES ARE PRINCIPLES. THEY TRANSCEND MERE ART. The principles involved in throwing are universal in Judo / Catch as Catch can / Greco Roman / BJJ / Shuai Chiao / Mongolian Wrestling / Collegiate Wrestling / Folk Wrestling......................................... ...............

Tim trains in BJJ to be a complete fighter, ie. ground and stand up. He did not take BJJ to learn how to throw better.

Jake

[GreenCloudCLF]

I am not contradicting myself. Tim has never studied THE ART of Shuai Chiao. Jesus are you guys really that argumentative here on KFO!?!?!?


Yes they are...some of these guys worlds end if you hint that martial arts in its purest form is not Chinese in nature....

[shirkers1]

Yes they are...some of these guys worlds end if you hint that martial arts in its purest form is not Chinese in nature....

I curse you.... you son of a hickory stick!!!! I feel on this day the same way I felt when I was first told that santa was not real. :mad: Martial arts not chinese in nature?!?!?! Where is your proof? I need a source for this, I fear many nights of no sleep ahead of me...... a tear has been shed.

[shirkers1]

Hey Jake I have one of Tim's earlier vids and it's full of good stuff. This one looks really clean and I like the addition of graphics for points of referance. Kudos to Tim, I'll have to pick this one up as well.