knee surgery help

[acepossm]

Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations on a possible dit da jow the would help the recovery and rebuild of a knee after arthiscopic surgery? Thanks

[Mukei]

The Ho Family's Healing Jow ....... its Very good ...... I use it on everything .......
Very Effective ....... Mukei

[SifuAbel]

which surgery?

[acepossm]

I am having my second arthoscopic on the same knee within seven months. Apparently it didn't heal correctly and I have a constant bone bruise unless I do this surgery all over again.

[qiphlow]

why are they operating on the knee in the first place? is it a torn ligament? a torn cartilage? loose bodies? the arthroscope is just a means of entry into the knee joint so the surgeon doesn't have to make a huge incision. many arthroscopic knee surgeries are not very traumatic to the knee because the surgeon didn't have to do alot when he was inside, but some, like an acl reconstruction, can have a pretty extended healing time.

[acepossm]

Last June I dislocated my knee cap breaking off pieces of cartilage. They removed the pieces with surgery then. No ligament damage but apparently there was enough pieces taken to call it a serious surgery. The Doctor said that the knee has not healed correctly and needs to go back in and fix the problem solving my knee pain problem. There is a divot in the cartilage where the bones are now bruising and he says he will take care of it again.

[herb ox]

I think you should get regular acupuncture of the knee as well... needling the knee seems to really help it to recover faster - the increased blood flow alone will nourish the ligaments that otherwise are slightly starved of blood. Moxibustion around the knee has yielded great results for my own injuries. And of course, a generous application of jow is indicated :p

There are also herbal formulae that are for internal use that will nourish the tendons and ligaments - xu duan is a fine example of one of the herbs used for these formulas. Consult your local practicioner - if he/she doesn't have the herbs and jow you need, ask for a referral to an ortho (acu) expert.

Good luck and I hope your knee gets better,

herb ox

[qiew]

Torn Meniscal Cartilage removal surgically cannot be reversed ie to re-grow again.

Torn cartilage at outer perimeter may be healed with a slow progress by massage, acupressure, acupuncture and taking supplements like Glutamine Glucosamine etc. Unfortunately, most torn Meniscal Cartilage is on the inner section where nourishment is known difficult to reach as there is no blood vessel linking it.

Cutting too much portion of cartilage would expose both end of knee bones and would rub against each other at a certain posture, particularly at bending the knee. So, strenuous exercise inserting too much pressure on knee should be restrained as there are less area for cartilages to cushion the shock.

Normally, the qi channel(s) above the knee cap is totally blocked off after the arthroscopic surgery. So, Moxibustion and acupuncture would help. Try massage the two soft (depressed) areas just above the knee cap very often.

It is important to strengthen your muscles and ligaments around your knee cap. Try massage the muscles surrounding the knee cap area with any herb. A simple method is to use fresh ginger with alcohol (brandy/whisky) if you cannot find any DitTaJow. All in all, moderate exercise would strengthen your muscles.

A normal healthy person would heal the injuried part by mother nature with the help of good nutrition and correct balance of hormones. Massage, moxibustion, acupuncture and herbal medicines would enhance the healing progress. Removed body part by artificially means or by surgery can not be reverted back. So, you should take care of your knee(s) now more than before.

Knee cartilages are difficult to heal. Not taking care of it now would lead to further deterioration of qi channels resulting in arthritis and other problem at the old age.

Take care

[cjurakpt]

Torn cartilage at outer perimeter may be healed with a slow progress by massage, acupressure, acupuncture and taking supplements like Glutamine Glucosamine etc.

I would love to see one bit of objective evidence or a single well-designed study that shows glucoamine having any effect on cartilage regrowth...

[qiew]

Thanks for pointing out the mistake. It is not glutamine Glocosamine. It is Glucosamine Chondroitin/glucosamine Sulphate of which I am taking at the moment.

The description at the back of the Glocosamine Sulphate which I bought from Holland & Barrett in UK a couple of years ago is misleading in saying that " Glucosamine is a natural, non toxic compound found in the body. It plays an important role in repairing and maintaining healthy joint cartilage....." It was probably a general concept two years ago that Glucosamine was the wonder drug in healing cartilages that the health food chains promote it heavily without substantial medical evidence. However, in her recent website,
http://www.bodysourceonline.co.uk/products/Jarrow-Glucosamine-Sulfate-500,-200caps-1838.aspx she now says that Glucosamine is a component of joints and intestinal tissue and is involved in the production of synovial fluid which lubricates the joints. Sulfur is also utilized in the production of cartilage tissue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucosamine_sulfate says that "Since glucosamine is a precursor for glycosaminoglycans, and glycosaminoglycans are a major component of joint cartilage, supplemental glucosamine may help to rebuild cartilage and treat arthritis,,,,"

As you are rightly point out that there is no solid medical evident to prove that glucosamine can re grow the cartilage. What is true now may be wrong in a few years time and vice versa. We are the victim of the nowaday busy money earning societies too lazy to exercise but to take supplements in the hope of achieving good health.

Acupuncture, moxibustion or massage would not directly heal the joint. All these treatments would improve better qi flow, blood flow, tissues and muscles growth around and at the knee which are essential to maintain a healthy joint and to lessen more wearing of the already worn and thin cartilages.


Torn cartilage cannot be re-grow as said in the first paragraph previously. This is true to the inner portion of the meniscal cartilages. Outer sections of the cartilages has blood vessels reaching it that repair is possible but difficult.

Also during surgery, one of the three arthroscopic incisions would have disturbed the qi channel flowing to the knee area. Acupuncture (massage) and acupressure are the most cost effective ways in restoring the qi flow.

Qi flow is different from blood flow in most aspect.

Taking any supplement is not the ideal way of improving health. There are many nature ways to be healthy. This is what I believe, not necessary true to some people.

Knee, ankles, heels etc subjected to more impact than other part of body joints, Do take care of them.

[cjurakpt]

Thanks for pointing out the mistake. It is not glutamine Glocosamine. It is Glucosamine Chondroitin/glucosamine Sulphate of which I am taking at the moment.
it doesn't matter if it's glucosamine alone or in combination with chondroitin or some other substance or a combination of the two: my point is that regardless of what it is, I have neve seen a single study showing that the above supplements have any impact on cartilage regrowth


she now says that Glucosamine is a component of joints and intestinal tissue and is involved in the production of synovial fluid which lubricates the joints. Sulfur is also utilized in the production of cartilage tissue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucosamine_sulfate says that "Since glucosamine is a precursor for glycosaminoglycans, and glycosaminoglycans are a major component of joint cartilage, supplemental glucosamine may help to rebuild cartilage and treat arthritis,,,,"
I have no problem with someone saying that these substances are a) found in cartilage and / or b) are involved in the growth of cartilage as precursors or otherwise, but it's a bit of a leapto think that taking an oral does of those substances will have any effect on the target cartilage: how it finds it's way from the intestinal tract to the knee aside, the other thing to consider is that just because someting is put in the body, doesn't mean that the body is going to use it for anything in particular...and notice the blurb says "may", not "does" - means they haven't got the data to really back it up yet...


As you are rightly point out that there is no solid medical evident to prove that glucosamine can re grow the cartilage. What is true now may be wrong in a few years time and vice versa. We are the victim of the nowaday busy money earning societies too lazy to exercise but to take supplements in the hope of achieving good health.
part of the reason I think it's a sham is that I've had patients try it (on their own, not by my suggestion) and in only a few days or a week tell me that their knee pain is gone; rather than ascribing this to cartilage re-growth, I suspect that feeling better about themselves has helped to decrease the chronic inflammatory response that was living in their knee joint(s)...now, if it cost 50 cents a bottle, I'd be like, "sure, go ahead, use it"; but this stuff is expensive $$$!


Also during surgery, one of the three arthroscopic incisions would have disturbed the qi channel flowing to the knee area.
not necessarilly: if the incision is a little off the channel, theoretically it wouln't disturb it; but the pull through the connective tissue / fascial matrix might create a local drag on the tissues, interfere wit the lymphatics, etc. leading to what you state (although I tend not to see qi and qi flow in such concrete terms, but more in context of net effect of all functional interrelationships in the body - so, of course, we can end up with the same problem, just using different terminology)


Qi flow is different from blood flow in most aspect.
you migh wish to clarify between western and eastern notion of blood as I believe that they are very different...


Knee, ankles, heels etc subjected to more impact than other part of body joints, Do take care of them.
I agree 100% - many chronic low back and even shoulder / neck problems are trceable to old, unresolved foot / ankle injuries that the body can no longer compensate for (again, i look at that via a western perspective, in terms of fascial tension, change in muscle balance, etc. - you could probably derrive similar conclusions using TCM system and it would be the same end result)

[GLW]

Normally I would not chime in here...but having gone through this...

I had a chronic knee issue from an injury. I underwent many months of acupuncture, tuina, herbs...and it helped...but in the long run, it held off the date of surgery for a good while but not forever.

So, I went in for the artherscopic procedure where they did a major amount of clean up of the back of the kneecap and such.

At that time, replacement of cartilage was a new technique so I could not get that done. That is one aspect I would look into now if I were to go through it again. What they were doing was sort of like doing cartilage plugs. However, there is a bit of a fragile time after the operation that you have to be VERY careful or you will cause the implant to be damaged or killed off.

Anyway, I combined treatements from my TCM doctor with western medicine. My TCM doctor was one of the founding teachers of the Shanghai College of Chinese MEdicine (second largest TCM college in China) and his specialty is orthopedics and traumatology. So...after the surgery, he did not want to see me until the stitches were out.

He did not want to run a risk of infection since some of the treatments would include salve and poultice type things. He also wanted to give the joint time to knit so treatment would not cause internal bleeding in any form.

After that, it was tuina, acupuncture, and some poultice as well as physical therapy. All help and the physical therapy in moderation is VERY important.

I screwed up in going back to teach Taijiquan and external classes too soon...and that hindered my recovery time.

Later, I had access to Vioxx...and did that for a while. As an anti-inflammatory, it worked fine but it also DID have the major side effects. If I had to do it over, I would have still used the Vioxx but cut it off after 6 months instead of 12...(it put me in the hospital.)

I then was recommended to try Glucosamine and Chondroitin. I tried several brands and the Walgreen's store brand was the cheapest and seemed to actually work the best for me. The orthopedic surgeon that recommended this stated that they did not know why it worked but seemed to help with inflamation. He also said that most of his patients either showed improvement with it in 2 weeks or not at all. Skeptical, I tried it - 1000 to 1500 Mg per day. This dosage is, by the way, the amount that the published British MEdical reports used when they got their best results.

It helped. I continue to use it ...but there have been some times when I did not have it. (see, my wife puts those things together with vitamins for me each day...thank her very much - since she knows I don't think of those things) Well, there have been a couple of times I have been my own blind study.

What happened was that she ran out of the Glucosamine Chondroitin and did not remember to get it for almost a month. Seems like it did something like build up a blood level. After about 10 days of being off of the stuff (without my knowledge), I began to have knee pain and having problems with workouts. This continued with me puzzled for a week or two...and then a question to my wife about the fact that the number of pills in my vitamin thing for the morning and night seemed to be fewer than before.... She then told me about running out of the Glucosamine....and when. First time this happened, it was interesting. Then it happened again...same thing...after about 10 days, the inflamation started to come back....in both instances, it was without me knowing I was NOT taking the Glucosamine Chondrotin...so ....

For me it works to help the inflamation. It does NOT regrow cartilage or whatever...but is a better choice than NSAIDS (Which, thanks to the Vioxx, I have been hypersensitized to and told by my MD to never take again...)

So, MSM, Glucosamine, Chondroitin are all good suplements...but each person reacts differently from what I have seen. You sort of have to do a bit of trial and error.