Shi Hengshan commits suicide

[GeneChing]

Apparently, he hung himself. Hengshan was a Shaolin monk that immigrated to NYC. He was associated with STOH (http://www.shaolin-overseas.org/home.html).

There's not much news in English, but it's all over the web in Chinese. Here's a World Journal article (http://www.worldjournal.com/wj-inst-news.php?nt_seq_id=1450348).

潦倒紐約 少林寺武僧自縊

　釋恒善生前練武的照片。(圖為紐約少林寺提供)
【本報記者蕭巧莉紐約報導】在紐約市法拉盛的紐約少林寺前武僧釋恒善在感恩節後一天的24日，被人發現上吊 自殺，雖被緊急送醫，但仍不治，他的師父釋延章 25日對外表示，釋恒善因生病被趕出紐約少林寺，因此貧病交集被迫自殺。紐約少林寺住持釋果林26日表示， 紐約少林寺並沒有趕走釋恒善，並對釋恒善的自殺感到很難過。

釋恒善的乾媽蔡菁菁26日表示，釋恒善24日與她約好下午在曼哈坦華埠見面，但是她苦等不到人。直到釋延章 打手機找釋恒善，但接聽電話的居然是警察，他們才得知釋恒善24日下午已經在法拉盛一棟住宅後面上吊自殺， 送醫後仍不治。

釋恒善的乾姐黃俍梅26日也反駁釋恒善因為生病被逐出紐約少林寺的說法，她說釋恒善因腰背受傷，她曾多次帶 其去看中醫西醫，看病費用都是由釋果林與她一起負擔，但恒善卻因為身體不好，情緒一直很低落。

紐約僑報26日報導，釋恒善於 2003 年受紐約少林寺的聘請前來擔任教練。釋延章則表示，釋恒善曾在聊天時提起原先受聘來美曾說好薪水是每月15 00元。釋延章則表示，釋恒善曾在聊天時提及但是三年下來他沒有拿到任何薪水，寺方釋果林還扣留押其護照， 因此釋恒善心情很壓抑，而今年 9 月 24日再被寺方釋果林以生病不能勝任教練為由，將釋恒善趕出少林寺，釋恒善因為沒有錢租房子，再加上身體不 適，因此情緒十分不穩定。

紐約少林寺住持釋果林26日對此回應，他說當初是因要幫恒善辦H1的簽證來美，所以薪資必須達到規定的標準 ，因此文件上才會註明年薪2萬 7000元，但在恒善來美之後，他曾對釋恒善表示少林寺的困難，且釋恒善本人也因感謝紐約少林寺協助他來美 ，主動表示他不需要薪水，雖然如此，但釋果林每年也會匯款兩千至三千元給恒善在中國的家人，偶爾也會給釋恒 善零用錢。

釋果林進一步解釋，釋恒善因為出家，也算佛家弟子，平常吃住都在寺內，因此不像一般上班族要拿固定薪水。釋 果林強調他並沒有扣押釋恒善的護照，只是因為2004年協助釋恒善續簽簽證，所以才會拿他護照，之後就幫他 保管，「但只要釋恒善跟他要他一定會立刻給釋恒善」。

釋果林也表示，釋恒善因為身體不適，曾向他表示想回中國成家，因此他本來計劃10月13日帶他回中國，但是 釋恒善在9月24日表示要去跟釋延章告別，一去就毫無音訊，他們多次聯絡都沒有結果。

釋果林說，釋恒善是一個很善良、個性溫和與內向的孩子，他們很想幫助恒善處理後事，但是他曾聯絡釋延章兩次 都遭拒絕，他們目前已經主動打電話給醫院與政府相關單位，期望能送釋恒善最後一程，他表示未來將會更關心少 林寺弟子的身心健康。

釋延章26日表示已經通知釋恒善在河南的父母，並為他們申請來美的簽證，他在得知釋果林的解釋之後，不願對 此多作說明，他只強調「釋果林要問問自己的良心」。

2006-11-27

[Royal Dragon]

Can you elaborate on this?

Most of us don't read Chinese. How did this happen? was it a training accident? or deliberate?

[David Jamieson]

I believe "suicide" would denote deliberate here.

any note left behind as to why the guy checked himself out?

is this the first incident of a shaolin offing himself?

did he do it in protest of something? was it his own desires that he succumbed to?

I am interested in knowing why a shaolin would kill himself. I understand self immolation has been a form of protest such as what Buddhist monks did in vietnam to protest theFrench and American involvement there, but I am curious about this guys motivation.

he does look like a pretty yound guy in his picture. Is that recent?
anyway, like rd said, can we get the info in the glish please?

["Clean"shaolin]

the news that i got from both the media & friends who "used" to donate and support Shi Guolin is that due to blackmailing, abuse of all forms including not paying HengShan any salary or even food money, the young Martial Monk ended his life by hanging himself in Flushing NY.

& this is not the first time that Guolin pushed someone to death, according to 2 Chinese newspapers.

What is shocking is that we still have all these Chinese & American followers who still believe that Guolin is a real monk.

The most sad thing is, on one of the Chinese newspaper, the "World Journal's front page, while publishing the Suicide news, it actually defends Guolin, by saying that he is "busy" getting some "Bardo-practice", or spiritual service done for the dead monk's soul.


Why? Because Guolin pays the news paper thousands of dollars each month for advertising, where does Guolin get the money? not from teaching martial arts, but from Buddhists students who believe that they are doing a great deed!!!!!!!!

Who is REALLY responsible? for Hengshan's death?
Everyone, please, please wake up, including Gene, who i have never met but have a whole world of respect to...

Please wake up to this whole "Shaolin" thing, Shaolin was destroying 2 times after the Ching Dynasty by warlords who were actually Buddhists, to clean up the rape, stealing, & killings that the corrupted temple had been involved in. If you want to see published Chinese documents on this, i have them here or i can email to you guys.

Shaolin, is the laughing stock of many real buddhist people in mainland China and in Taiwan, on media, Buddhism discussion forums, newspapers, for its poverty of real spiritual knowledge and yrs of corruption. Too bad most of us here can’ read Chinese. Even though Yongxin had been trying hard to do some reform, the place's energy/karma is just too messed up to be cleaned up.

Let' keep the issues separate, Guolin is a half-decent MA teacher and was half-normal before the money, women and power got to him in the big apple,(not to say that now Henan is 10 times more corrupted than ny.)

If he openly takes off his "Monk" or "Shi" title, and just teach Martial arts as a business, like Hengxin and Lipeng are doing, i would sent my kid to him as well as many other Chinese Buddhists parents would. We would respect his honesty, but now, no way in hell!!!!

So all Shaolin USA students, please, please take a stand, to leave fake monks, even though that their Kung Fu might be good, this is really about Karma, about paying respects to the dead......

And all Buddhist, before you donate to any temple, think twice, Guolin got big because the general stupidity, superstition of the Chinese Buddhists community. In a sense, Guolin's Karma is everyone else's Karma that's around him. Dont' you agree, Gene?

So if you are mostly looking for enlightenment and real health, LEAVE shaolin related-teachers, period......

Let's really try to keep the Kung Fu training separate from the name of Shaolin. It took me many, many yrs to be able to wake up.

I was an early yr student of both Yanming and Guolin on Allen St, when they both defected from Chan Poi's Shaolin Tour,when they were brothers before Yanming bought a Gun & trying to shoot Guolin.

But if he did shoot, maybe it would have saved a lot of other's lives, like Hengshan's...

A Mi Tuo Fo

Yan Ming, might be a monk with broken wows, but at least he is not a "back-stabber", a "killer". According to ALL other sifus that i have met who know both Guolin and Yangming-Sifu Fukui Yang who used to teach at Yanming's place, Sifu Chen Yan(Bagua Sifu who teaches at Frank Yee's, who was once Guolin's Godsister), Sifu Xian Gao, who got in trouble with supporting prostitution but at least is not hiding behind a monk's robe, Sifu Tailiang Li, Sifu Chen Ying, Sifu Ning Zhao( a master of Chen style taiji who used to teach at Guolin's, who I heard from his student that Hengshan had cried many times about the abuse issue to...which i have to verify myself when he comes back from Henan.), Sifu Ping Zhen who who knows Yanming & Guolin for yrs, Sifu Rengang Wang, etc.. almost EVERY, EVERY Chinese sifu in NY and in Flushing.

The most sarcastic thing is, even Master Guangyi Ren, who used to be partners with Guolin, does not give positive comments about his "EX" Henan brother...

The best thing is that most of these Sifus have contact infos or websites, just call or email them yourself would be the best way....

[jigahus]

This sounds important but I have no idea, no historical info to know who and what significances most of these monks did.

[nyhakka]

We all know what these monks are! But not my place to state it since I'm ot a student of one, but I'll pray for his soul.:(

Also, I'd like to see some of that documentation spoken about

[Fook Kuil]

Omi tor fut

Suil lum gung fu is very good its a shame this will bring bad reflexion on temple and other suil lum.

very sad

[GeneChing]

The Chinese news is fairly tabloid so far. They're having a field day with this. As with any such situation, it may take a while until everything is sorted out. There is talk of an autopsy. There is talk that Hengshan had already split with Yanzhang from Guolin. There is talk that Hengshan was on his way back to China. Who knows at this point? As you might imagine, there's a lot of crazy rumors swirling around this right now. We'll keep monitoring it and share what we can. If anyone wants to set themselves to the task of translating the Chinese paper articles, be my guest.

"Clean"shaolin - I deleted your other post since it was exactly the same as the one you posted on this thread, and given that at this point, you've only posted these two posts - well one now - all I can say is, 'welcome to the forum' ;)

[CFT]

在紐約市法拉盛的紐約少林寺前武僧釋恒善在感恩節後一天的24日，被人發現上吊 自殺，雖被緊急送醫，但仍不治，他的師父釋延章 25日對外表示，釋恒善因生病被趕出紐約少林寺，因此貧病交集被迫自殺。紐約少林寺住持釋果林26日表示， 紐約少林寺並沒有趕走釋恒善，並對釋恒善的自殺感到很難過Shaolin martial monk Shi Hengshan was found hanging in Flushing, New York one day after Thanksgiving on November 24th. He was quickly rushed for medical aid but could not be treated. His teacher, Shi Yanzhang issued a statement on the 25th: Shi Hengshan was forced out of the New York Shaolin Temple because of his illness. Due to the combination of illness and destitution he was forced into committing suicide. New York Shaolin Temple abbot Shi Guolin issued a statement on the 26th: the New York Shaolin Temple did not force Shi Hengshan out and was very saddened to learn of his suicide.


釋恒善的乾媽蔡菁菁26日表示，釋恒善24日與她約好下午在曼哈坦華埠見面，但是她苦等不到人 。直到釋延章 打手機找釋恒善，但接聽電話的居然是警察，他們才得知釋恒善24日下午已經在法拉盛一棟住宅後 面上吊自殺， 送醫後仍不治。Cai Qingqing, the godmother of Shi Hengshan issued a statement on the 26th: she was due to meet Shi Hengshan on the afternoon of the 24th in Manhattan's Chinatown, but was kept waiting. Not until Shi Yanzhang tried to call Shi Hengshan, and the call picked up by a police officer, did they find out that Shi Hengshan had commited suicide by hanging in a Flushing apartment.


釋恒善的乾姐黃俍梅26日也反駁釋恒善因為生病被逐出紐約少林寺的說法，她說釋恒善因腰背受傷 ，她曾多次帶 其去看中醫西醫，看病費用都是由釋果林與她一起負擔，但恒善卻因為身體不好，情緒一直很低落。 Shi Hengshan's younger godsister Huang Langmei stated on the 26th that Shi Hengshan was forced out of the New York Shaolin Temple because of his ill health. He had been suffering from a lower back injury. She had taken him many times to both Western and Tradtitional Chinese medicine practitioners, the cost of which was met by both herself and Shi Guolin. But Hengshan became very depressed because of his ill health.


紐約僑報26日報導，釋恒善於 2003 年受紐約少林寺的聘請前來擔任教練。釋延章則表示，釋恒善曾在聊天時提起原先受聘來美曾說好薪 水是每月15 00元。釋延章則表示，釋恒善曾在聊天時提及但是三年下來他沒有拿到任何薪水，寺方釋果林還扣留押 其護照， 因此釋恒善心情很壓抑，而今年 9 月 24日再被寺方釋果林以生病不能勝任教練為由，將釋恒善趕出少林寺，釋恒善因為沒有錢租房子，再加 上身體不 適，因此情緒十分不穩定。The New York China Press reports on the 26th that Shi Hengshan was invited by the New York Shaolin Temple in 2003 to become an instructor. Shi Yanzhang stated that Shi Hengshan mentioned in everyday conversation that he was promised a monthly salary of 1500 USD, but over the past 3 years he has not drawn any salary and abbot Shi Guolin confiscated his passport. Due to this his (Shi Hengshan) emotional state became depressed. Furthermore on 24th Spetember he was forced to leave the New York Shaolin Temple by the abbot Shi Guolin on the pretext that he was not able to meet his teaching duties due to ill health. Since Shi Hengshan did not have money for accommodation and was in ill health, this caused his emotional state to become very unstable.


紐約少林寺住持釋果林26日對此回應，他說當初是因要幫恒善辦H1的簽證來美，所以薪資必須達 到規定的標準 ，因此文件上才會註明年薪2萬 7000元，但在恒善來美之後，他曾對釋恒善表示少林寺的困難，且釋恒善本人也因感謝紐約少林寺協助他來美 ，主動表示他不需要薪水，雖然如此，但釋果林每年也會匯款兩千至三千元給恒善在中國的家人，偶 爾也會給釋恒 善零用錢。New York Shaolin Temple abbot Shi Guolin replies on the 26th: due to the H1 application requiring a fixed income statement, an annual salary of 27000USD was entered on the application. But once Shi Hengshan arrived in the USA it was explained to him the difficulties of the Shaolin Temple. It was Shi Hengshan himself who offered to not take his salary as a gesture of appreciation for the efforts of the New York Shaolin Temple in helping him to get into the USA. Although this was the case, Shi Guolin would send an annual remmittance of 2000 to 3000USD to Shi Hengshan's family in China, and also gave him an allowance.


釋果林進一步解釋，釋恒善因為出家，也算佛家弟子，平常吃住都在寺內，因此不像一般上班族要拿固定薪水。釋 果林強調他並沒有扣押釋恒善的護照，只是因為2004年協助釋恒善續簽簽證，所以才會拿他護照，之後就幫他 保管，「但只要釋恒善跟他要他一定會立刻給釋恒善」。Shi Guolin further explained that because Shi Hengshan had been initiated as a monk, he could be regarded as a full Buddhist student - everyday food and living could be met within the Temple itself. Therefore he was not like the students who needed a salary [in order to pay for lessons]. Shi Guolin strenuously denied that he had confiscated Shi Hengshan's passport; it was needed in 2004 to extend Shi Hengshan's visa, and afterwards he looked after it on his behalf. Had Shi Hengshan wanted it back then it would have been returned immediately.


釋果林也表示，釋恒善因為身體不適，曾向他表示想回中國成家，因此他本來計劃10月13日帶他 回中國，但是 釋恒善在9月24日表示要去跟釋延章告別，一去就毫無音訊，他們多次聯絡都沒有結果。Shi Guolin also stated that because of his ill health, Shi Hengshan had told him that wanted to return to China to start a family. Therefore he [Shi Guolin] had planned to return to China with him on 13th October. But on 24th September Shi Hengshan went to say goodbye to Shi Yanzhang, and all contact was lost since then. Many times contact was atempted but without success.


釋果林說，釋恒善是一個很善良、個性溫和與內向的孩子，他們很想幫助恒善處理後事，但是他曾聯 絡釋延章兩次 都遭拒絕，他們目前已經主動打電話給醫院與政府相關單位，期望能送釋恒善最後一程，他表示未來 將會更關心少 林寺弟子的身心健康。Shi Guolin said that Shi Hengshan was a benevolent, even tempered and introspective child. They [NY Shaolin] wanted to help with his funeral arrangements, but both attempts to contact Shi Yanzhang were met with refusal. They [NY Shaolin] have at present contacted the hospital and appropriate government departments, with the hope that they can send Shi Hengshan off on his final journey. He [Shi Guolin] said that in the future he would pay even more attention to the physical and mental health of Shaolin disciples.


釋延章26日表示已經通知釋恒善在河南的父母，並為他們申請來美的簽證，他在得知釋果林的解釋 之後，不願對 此多作說明，他只強調「釋果林要問問自己的良心」。Shi Yanzhang stated on the 26th that he had already informed the parents of Shi Hengshan in Henan, and had applied for their entry visa to the USA. After hearing Shi Guolin's explanation he declined to comment. He adamantly stated that Shi Guolin needed to look at his own conscience.

[David Jamieson]

nobody get's forced into commiting suicide, it is a choice that is made at an individual level and blaming his suicide on someone else is fruitless.

thanks for the translation of the article.

[Buby]

I have two buddies that train at Goulin's and they both told me the same thing. I was told Goulin didn't pay the monk and was holding on to his passport.


Buby

["Clean"shaolin]

Thank you, Gene, for helping us to have a real place of free speech.

I hope that by seeing all that' false with today's

Shaolin, we can actually be helpful on bringing back the real Shaolin spirit which did exist before the Ching Dynasty, before Shaolin turned into a government dog, like it is now to just bringing in cash for the Henan Province's corrupted officials while whole viliages of AIDs patients next door to it are not getting a penny from them.

Any American here who wants to do a search, just search under "Henan's AIDS village" and you will see what' going on, sure it's not Shaolin's fault, but......

Anyway, the new rumors from Yanzhang and Yanming's people are that Guolin hired kidnappers and killers(which only cost less then 10 grams in the Chinese community here) to kill HengShan so that

a.Hengshan does not report to Yongxin on how dark the NY Shaolin is
b. The attorneys of Hengshan would not report to INS and Dept of Labor for lying to the immigration of paying Hengshan a salary, then Guolin would really got in trouble with the law

... I hope this is only a rumor and I think it is because Guolin did say to the Chinese media that he did lie to the Immigration and Labor dept of not paying Hengshan.

Let's say Hengshan did commit suicide and the death is from many causes, and of course Guolin would still be one of the major ones, nobody can run away from Karma, let's face it.

["Clean"shaolin]

Please, then, why are they still training there and support ing the "dark" Shaolin.

I am speaking with a few Chinese Buddists attorneys that just for the right causes, we should start a criminal case agaist Guolin, on abuse and also Fraud and lying to the immigration which Guolin openly admitted in his interview on the death case, contact me offline if those Guolin's students are willing to testify as witnesses and of couse some Buddhist Charity groups would come up with a fee to pay for the witness's time.

Again, this is not personal, I think Guolin's Hard Qigong is pretty good that I would even send my son to him if he drops his monk robe.

If the law does not take care of this, Shi Yongxin should, if he doesn't, then maybe......what happened to Hengshan, will happen to Guolin too.......

Also, any Guolin students here, please contact me in PM, for a good cause,

but wait a day or so, Gene is right too, let's see what the cops find on this.

[GeneChing]

I searched the Singtao site but didn't see the article. I only did a quick search, though. If anyone finds it, CFT, would you do us the honors of translation again?

I've interacted with Shi Guolin and his students on many occasions and never had any issues with him. I have had issues with other monks, so this has little to do with my bias towards my own martial lineage. And I've known Shi Guolin for years. Of course, the face that anyone presents to the media (me) can be very different than the reality, but my impression of Shi Guolin has always been very positive.

At this point, I'm just watching to see what comes next. Shaolin is always a difficult path. Many are called. Few are chosen.

["Clean"shaolin]

The article pretty much validates everything I heard, except the Guolin hiring killers part.

I'll translate it later or maybe someone else can help out.

Very, very sick and disturbing, done under the name of the Buddha.

Gene is right, the "Real" Shaolin path is tough, so let's watch out and clean out the frauds.

Here is the link:

http://www.singtaousa.com/index1.html

師弟上吊枉死 師兄欲討公道主持釋果林﹕怎會刻薄徒弟


(本報訊 )紐約法拉盛少林寺武術教練釋恒善懸樑自盡後，恒善的師兄釋延章和可樂娜少林寺法師恒霖等人，均對法拉盛少 林寺的主持釋果林表示不滿，認為果林沒有盡到僱主責任，希望社會能替恒善「討回公道」。他們並表示，將在本 周五舉辦法會，為恒善之靈超度。

得知少林寺發生又一起惡性事件後，社區人士亦認為，少林寺本來是個佛教聖地、健身武館，是人們追求精神出世 、身體健康的地方，卻不想一再發生跳樓、自盡等惡性事件以及許多世俗糾紛，這實在令人無法理解 。

皇后區可樂娜少林寺的恒霖法師介紹，可樂娜少林寺是在1992年成立，來自中國大陸的果林，最先是投靠可樂 娜少林寺，被師傅釋延常收留，一起修禪習武。幾年後，果林與他人一起另立門戶，並於1999年在法拉盛興建 了一間少林寺。恒霖法師表示，恒善走上絕路對佛教界震動很大，果林應對此負責。她認為，果林扣押恒善等武術 教練的護照，卻並未替他們辦身分，致使恒善等人身分「黑」了下來。本來有病卻沒有經濟來源的的恒善，發現自 己來美數年後居然沒有合法身分，心情更加鬱悶，終於走上絕路。恒霖表示，作為擔保恒善到美國工作的寺廟主持 ，果林時常讓恒善吃些剩飯，令恒善身體越來越差。最近一段時間，果林更是刻薄恒善，最後將恒善「逼出」法拉 盛少林寺。她表示，少林弟子在美無親無故，希望社會給予幫助，為「可憐的恆善討回一個公道」。

一位曾給法拉盛少林寺捐款，並幫助恒善尋醫問藥的女居士亦稱，恒善患病後血糖過低，需要及時治療才可避免精 神類疾病，果林卻對此漠不關心。她可以幫助沒身分的恒善辦聯邦醫療計劃，卻遭到怕麻煩的果林阻攔，致使本可 獲得公費治療的恒善病況轉差。她稱，果林從不給教練們人工，令武術教練生活困窘，離開少林寺便無法生存。居 士們可憐這些教練，平時偷偷塞給他們一些紅包，才能讓他們能夠在年底寄點錢回家。對於恒善的後事，她甚至懷 疑果林會借此斂財，因而希望社會將對恒善的愛心直接交給到美國料理後事的恒善父母手中。

果林對以上所有指控均表示否認，他稱，不應把佛門弟子個人恩怨加到恒善事件上來，「讓外界看笑話」。現在主 要的問題，是如何處理好恒善的後事。

[richard sloan]

whoah...

let's leave Yan Ming out of this grist mill, trust me we are even as I type this moving into a new space, building around the clock, we certainly don't have time to send any killers anywhere, they are all putting up walls, painting, and installing flooring and have been for weeks, not to mention all the other stuff we are working on...so I don't think anything has been heard from our people except nails, hammers, and occassional expletives...

This is the first I have even heard about this incident...Amitabha for this loss.

Clean, I'm surprised you left out Yan Chang.

[nyhakka]

Please, then, why are they still training there and support ing the "dark" Shaolin.

I am speaking with a few Chinese Buddists attorneys that just for the right causes, we should start a criminal case agaist Guolin, on abuse and also Fraud and lying to the immigration which Guolin openly admitted in his interview on the death case, contact me offline if those Guolin's students are willing to testify as witnesses and of couse some Buddhist Charity groups would come up with a fee to pay for the witness's time.

Again, this is not personal, I think Guolin's Hard Qigong is pretty good that I would even send my son to him if he drops his monk robe.

If the law does not take care of this, Shi Yongxin should, if he doesn't, then maybe......what happened to Hengshan, will happen to Guolin too.......

Also, any Guolin students here, please contact me in PM, for a good cause,

but wait a day or so, Gene is right too, let's see what the cops find on this.

A criminal case is fruitless since proving Goulin actually commited a crime will be tough...now a CIVIL suit...that's the way to go!

[Lokhopkuen]

This is really sad.

Peace to Shi Hengshan.

[CFT]

Translation of the Singtao article.


師弟上吊枉死 師兄欲討公道主持釋果林﹕怎會刻薄徒弟Younger martial brother needlessly dies by hanging, martial senior seeks justice; abbot Shi Guolin: why would I oppress my student?


(本報訊 )紐約法拉盛少林寺武術教練釋恒善懸樑自盡後，恒善的師兄釋延章和可樂娜少林寺法師恒霖等人，均對法拉盛少 林寺的主持釋果林表示不滿，認為果林沒有盡到僱主責任，希望社會能替恒善「討回公道」。他們並 表示，將在本 周五舉辦法會，為恒善之靈超度。After the suicide by hanging of New York Flushing Shaolin Temple martial arts instructor Shi Hengshan, his elder martial brother Shi Yanzhang and master Henglin of Corona Shaolin Temple et al. hope that society can help Hengshan seek justice. They also state that this Friday they will hold a [Buddhist] ceremony to release his spirit [not sure what the right term is].


得知少林寺發生又一起惡性事件後，社區人士亦認為，少林寺本來是個佛教聖地、健身武館，是人們追求精神出世 、身體健康的地方，卻不想一再發生跳樓、自盡等惡性事件以及許多世俗糾紛，這實在令人無法理解 。We have news of yet another malign incident at the Shaolin Temple. Local people believe that the Shaolin Temple should be a sacred Buddhist place, a martial training place for building the body, a place for attaining spiritual enlightenment. We don’t want to hear again of jumping off buildings, suicides and other secular affairs. This is all inexplicable.


皇后區可樂娜少林寺的恒霖法師介紹，可樂娜少林寺是在1992年成立，來自中國大陸的果林，最先是投靠可樂 娜少林寺，被師傅釋延常收留，一起修禪習武。幾年後，果林與他人一起另立門戶，並於1999年在法拉盛興建 了一間少林寺。恒霖法師表示，恒善走上絕路對佛教界震動很大，果林應對此負責。她認為，果林扣押恒善等武術 教練的護照，卻並未替他們辦身分，致使恒善等人身分「黑」了下來。本來有病卻沒有經濟來源的的恒善，發現自 己來美數年後居然沒有合法身分，心情更加鬱悶，終於走上絕路。恒霖表示，作為擔保恒善到美國工 作的寺廟主持 ，果林時常讓恒善吃些剩飯，令恒善身體越來越差。最近一段時間，果林更是刻薄恒善，最後將恒善「逼出」法拉 盛少林寺。她表示，少林弟子在美無親無故，希望社會給予幫助，為「可憐的恆善討回一個公道」。 Queens Corona Shaolin Temple master Henglin introduces: Corona Shaolin Temple established 1992. Guolin who comes from the People’s Republic of China first sought assistance from the Corona Shaolin Temple. He was offered shelter by Shi Yanchang, together they cultivated Chan (Zen) and practiced the martial arts. A few years later, Guolin and others left to create their own household; they built a Shaolin Temple in Flushing in 1999. Master Henglin believes that the terminal route that Hengshan took has greatly shaken the Buddhist world; Guolin should take responsibility. She was of the opinion that Guolin had confiscated Hengshan’s and other instructors passports, but had not arranged any kind of visas for them, thereby rendering all of them with illegal alien status [the article uses the term “blackened” status]. So Hengshan found himself ill, with no income, and the fact that he had been in the USA for many years with unlawful immigration status lead his emotional state to become even more melancholic, hence leading to his path on the terminal road. Henglin states that even though Guolin was the sponsor for Hengshan’s work visa, Guolin only let Hengshan eat leftovers, leading to Hengshan’s deteriorating health. Over a more recent period, Guolin abused/oppressed Hengshan, finally “forcing” him out of Flushing Shaolin Temple. She stated: Shaolin disciples in the USA have no relatives or friends, we hope that the community can help them, help Hengshan get some justice.


一位曾給法拉盛少林寺捐款，並幫助恒善尋醫問藥的女居士亦稱，恒善患病後血糖過低，需要及時治療才可避免精 神類疾病，果林卻對此漠不關心。她可以幫助沒身分的恒善辦聯邦醫療計劃，卻遭到怕麻煩的果林阻攔，致使本可 獲得公費治療的恒善病況轉差。她稱，果林從不給教練們人工，令武術教練生活困窘，離開少林寺便無法生存。居 士們可憐這些教練，平時偷偷塞給他們一些紅包，才能讓他們能夠在年底寄點錢回家。對於恒善的後事，她甚至懷 疑果林會借此斂財，因而希望社會將對恒善的愛心直接交給到美國料理後事的恒善父母手中。A previous donor to the Flushing Shaolin Temple who helped Hengshan seek medical aid also said: after Hengshan became ill, his blood sugar levels dropped, requiring timely medical treatment to avoid mental health problems; Guolin was not remotely interested. She tried to help Hengshan, still with illegal immigration status, get on the Union (?) medical plan, but was frustrated in her efforts by the fearful Guolin. This lead to Hengshan losing the public funds available for medical treatment and led to a worsening of his health. She said: Guolin did not allow the martial instructors to work [elsewhere?], which meant that they lived in very hard-pressed conditions; leaving the Shaolin Temple would give them no means of surviving. Local people felt sorry for the instructors, normally secretly giving them red packets [lucky red envelopes of money] so that they could send some money back home for the New Year. As for Hengshan’s funeral, she even suspects that Guolin will use the occasion to collect funds. Therefore she hopes that the community’s goodwill should go directly to Hengshan’s parents who will be in the USA to arrange his funeral.


果林對以上所有指控均表示否認，他稱，不應把佛門弟子個人恩怨加到恒善事件上來，「讓外界看笑 話」。現在主 要的問題，是如何處理好恒善的後事。Guolin denies all of the above accusations. He said that the internal arguments within the Buddhist sect should not be conflated with Hengshan’s issues, thereby becoming a laughing stock for the outside world. At present the pressing matter is how to arrange Hengshan’s funeral.

[GeneChing]

I knew of Hengshan, but I never met him. I've never met Yanzhang or Henglin either. They sound rather disgruntled. I'm surprised at the statements they are making to the press. Does anyone have direct experience of any of these three? "Clean"shaolin, do you know them?

[BruceSteveRoy]

with all due respect clean shaolin i don't think it is right to chastise the entire shaolin system just bc of your opinion that shi guolin is one of the bad guys. i don't know him so i have no basis for any opinion. I will say this though. you talk about having chinese documents that validate the opinion that shaolin is bad but i think anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of chinese history would know that those documents are suspect. the bias against the shaolin has been around for a very long time. and the documents you have come from a country that is known for its propaganda, misinformation and control of public knowledge. of course there are probably tons of documents like the ones you have but consider the source.

thats just my $.02.

[Iron Cross]

Wow, I am SOOOOOO glad I got out of the whole shaolin scene. In my opinion they are all rather insane. This event kinda just confirms what I already knew. It seems so incredibly pointless to have happened too. All the talk of buddhist compasion and understanding is clearly bunk.

Rich you really need to relax dude. I don't think anyone is connecting your sacred master to this event. He was probably too busy at the time eating babies or doing drugs with the wutang clan or whatever rampant rumors are flying about him now. I really hate the guy but I wouldn't sugest a conneciton nor as someone pointed out he tred to shoot someone at one point.

Seems like whatever is left of shaolin si being eaten away from the inside by a cancer or desease in the form of its own egotistical, idealistic or crazy practitioners. Seeing and experiencing personally some of this crap Yan Ming has done, now seeing what has gone down with Guolins joint and also hearing the stories from china. I am rather convinced shaolin cannot survive or maybe it never did and those that rebuilt the place had no idea what they were doing. Sad really..

I say put aside all the Bs and politics and the hating and ask yourself a simple question. Does any of this stuff make us better people? Seems to me they are all morally bankrupt.

Good on the move rich. heard the place is like 3x as big. Maybe it will give people space and they won't act so insane. Or maybe there will be sufficent air flow so no one else almost dies of heat stroke..

peace

[David Jamieson]

This looks like it is going to get ugly before it gets better.

It is too bad that a death is a catalyst for change in this case.

[nyhakka]

Who said anything about change? It was flawed to begin with, and so it'll stay since there is noone to change it. the Gov't is making too much money to change the issues in Mainland, and the ones here in the states are pretty much lay people now making a living. So they probably don't care about change at this point, just their own schools and situations. And judging from what's coming out can you blame them?

[Songshan]

Sad news and yet another blow to the Shaolin community which should stand for justice and righteousness. A sad fact is that there is a high rate of suicide among the younger generation Chinese in China (check out the Jet Li interview in the Sept/Oct 2006 issue and the basis of the Jet Li foundation). Usually in most investigations of suicide it tends to raise the question(s) “How and why did it happen“? Since we already know the answer to one and not the other question it will definitely leave a dark cloud glooming over Shaolin in the USA. I can only hope that the allegations made are not true. This is not to say that incidents don’t happen in China at Shaolin because they probably do. The problem here is that Shaolin is not so widely common in the USA which tend to spotlight things. Shaolin is in the spotlight right now and has been over the last few years here in America.

I can’t tell you how many times I have tipped my hat to immigrants that come to an entirely different country, not speaking the common language and successfully establish themselves or open businesses. It takes a lot to do that and not to mention lots of sacrifices (like family). So that mixed with the pressure of earning income to make a living can lead to adverse effects…especially if you are injured and make a living as an athlete with your body to earn that income.

I have seen so many people lose focus on why they started training Shaolin all because they got caught up and enthralled with how the monks live their life in America. This has spawned hateful Shaolin critics and caused “tabloid” exposure of Shaolin. If you want to become a monk, fine. If you want to become Buddhist, fine. If you want to live your life like a monk that’s fine too. All I can say is that if you train with one of the monks be righteous, follow the Buddhist beliefs and always help those in need...especially if the ones in need are the ones sweating next you in class.

["Clean"shaolin]

big, big news from China's Shaolin:

The latest update is that he openly denied that the monk who commited suicide is affliated with Shaolin. and stating that the dead one is a "fake Monk" therefore it has nothing to do with Shaolin.

This speaks a lot about Hengshan's teacher "Guolin".

But Yongxin better make it clear about this Joint in Flushing, Guolin's Joint.

for all these poor Chinese immigrants & American Kungfu students' blood money, donating to a joint which they believe to be a sacred place with blessing power toward enlightenment.....

With Yanming, we all know that he is not a monk, (no offense Rich, just stating a fact, has nothing to do with the fact that Yanming does know some good forms.),

but with Guolin, this is big, big news, lots of Chinese newspapers is going to press Yongxin to openly confess that Guolin is NOT A MONK.

Any Guolin's student's here: it would be great to tell him, that the best thing to do, is to openly dethrone from being fake monk, and Karma might be able to forgive him.

Again, this has nothing to do with he's got some good hard qigong.

Just, Simply, stop lying to the world, and to America that YOU are a monk.

He can still teach at a new school without calling it a temple and Chinese parents would still send their kids to him. (I would even consider supporting those who deserves forgiveness....)

But again, this could be just a bull**** self-saving trick that Yongxin is using to save his own ass...

many Buddhists in China believe that if there is such a place called "hell", Yongxin will be there. They've always believed that the dude has no heart at all.

but who the hell knows.....

The best thing is to have a money-kungfu, religion separated Shaolin, or it's going straight down to the toilet...

Gene, you asked about Corona Shaolin and Rich you ask me why I leave Master Shi Yanchang(Guolin & Yanming's first teacher in NY), too many things too disgusting to write here, but I will write them out soon.

Here is Yongxin's Confession:

武僧纽约自杀再添神秘色彩 少林方丈:他是冒充的

少林寺弟子释恒善24日在纽约自杀身亡的消息经媒体报道后，该报访问了少林寺方丈释永信，意外的是，释永信 居然表示，这名武僧根本就不是少林寺的武僧，是有人想破坏少林寺的名誉恶意冒充。 www.6park.com

　　美国媒体日前报道，纽约少林寺一年轻僧人释恒善前不久传因病被赶出山门，由于贫病交集、流离失所，他于 24日午间在法拉盛上吊自杀，被人发现后报警送医抢救，当晚6时被宣布不治。 www.6park.com

　　不过，当东森记者就此事询问少林方丈释永信时，他却语出惊人的说，自杀的根本不是少林寺武 僧。 www.6park.com

　　少林方丈：“没有，那不是少林寺的人。”记者：“不是少林寺的人？”少林方丈：“对，他冒充的，没这回 事，与我们没关系。” www.6park.com

　　当记者再度打到少林武僧团确认说法时，少林武僧团团长说：“我不太清楚。”记者：“他是你的同事吗？” 少林武僧团团长：“不是，不是，这门事不太清楚，不知道，我们不知道什么事。” www.6park.com

　　这起少林僧人自杀事件，已经引起媒体的广泛关注，不过少林寺的态度让外界搞不清楚，到底事实真相如何， 还必须等少林寺说明，才能理清真相。

[CLFNole]

Should this be a suprise to anyone? For the people who think this is "real" shaolin well they get what the pay for. People should do a little research and they would know whats what. DO you want some fries to go all with dai hong kuen?

["Clean"shaolin]

In China, do you know what's really,really going on with Shaolin and many styles of professional MA schools in general.....????????????????????????????????

Most students from the Shaolin temple affliated schools in Henan are kids from very poor, illiterate families like Guolin was.(Guolin too was almost illiterate when he first got to NY, and yet he made a big fool out of himself by trying to teach the Diamond Sutra at his temple....that's when I left him, disgusting.....),

Since the mid 90's, after graduate, these kids either became contract killers, debt-collectors(not the kind we get here over the phone for our credit card debts) or "security guards" in south China.

In Guangzhou alone, a rich city, there are over 40000 "shaolin" graduates working in "businesses", the largest organized crime in the city is the "Henan Martial arts or Shaolin Gang"......

As sad as it is, in the last 2 yrs, there had been at least 4 national or state Sanshou champions, all "shaolin" graduates, were shot by the police....all in published news.

Even one of my "ex"-heroes,(like how Guolin and Yanming were), Coach Qiao lifu, once a honorary coach for the early Shaolin temple, national Sanshou king, one of the first Chinese who fought the Thais in early 80's, were also shot by over 30 police for kidnapping and killing. They actually shot his when he was having sex with a hooker, they were so afraid of his Shaolin Kung fu, he was really, really good.

Like Iron Cross asked Rich, We should all ask ourselves, where is kung fu really going to take us too????????????????

It's China's Karma that to survive, for supply & demand, there is no way to change the "dark" Shaolin situation for now, the kids from the villages around shaolin are bringing bread & butter to their family tables by working in rich cities for "Businesses" as hitmen & killers....for a period of time.

Then Kung Fu will never be able to compete with TKD and Karate, among China's large, civilized cities, as a real "culture", a real "way" of self-cultivation, this is the Karma of Kung fu......so let's not complain about how kung fu is dying......

regardless of how much more effective kung fu is fighting wise......
(maybe technically it "was", when Guoshu was relatively healthier than Wushu before Communists taking over. Now when a whole art that's dominated by low-level, low-classes teachers such as Guolin and fanatic kids followers like many of us here on this board once were, there is no hope for the art to not be supassed by a healthier sport or an art, such as BJJ, Mixed MA as a sport, or true internal arts that really do offer things toward spiritual growth.)

But in the real Zen or Chan way, Karma can be changed too......

Hope we can all serve our parts, in helping kung fu, also helping ourselves,
to figure out, what are the ways to "clean" shaolin, "clean" martial arts, and clean "ourselves"......

Right now the only recommendation for Yongxin is to have kung fu, business, and Buddhism as separated depts, which is what he had been trying to do.......but with no success.....he is the only monk that's not a native of Henan but Anhui.....and i heard that to protect himself being killed by other shaolin "Monks", he had to kill 6 of them through out the years, for a good cause is what i heared.


I really don't know who to believe, but one thing is clear, the MA people in US, we need to stop supporting these "monks" in the states for money,woman and drug.....
Karmically, the will to not support them must exceeds my love of kung fu.......

[Yao Sing]

Can't be true. Everyone knows CMA is just a bunch of forms players that don't learn any REAL fighting moves. :D

[richard sloan]

Hey Clean- you don't need to apologize. Say what you need to say, that is why there is a forum. And just for Iron Cross's sake, if I decide to reply please don't find me "excited" or uncalm just because I reply, or disagree. It's just a reply back to you on an internet forum and shouldn't be construed as an attack or that I am excited and all RAAAAARRRRGH RAAAARRRRGH.

Since Shi Yan Ming is the only one I have spent significant time with, I can't speak to your claims of Guolin's illiteracy, or the gun incident- I heard it another way- or the yan chang discipleship episode, except to tell you there are more than one version to some of these stories and so I feel that the grain of salt is necessary. I met a lady once who used to go to the Pike St. Temple and she had nothing but glowing praise for SYM. I know he is not illiterate...and I've been with him and heard him recite sutras backwards and forwards, worked with him on our fo fa sen vows and books, sat with him through dharma debates, I know his knowledge is both conversational and fluent in the subject matter. Anyway, there are two major problems people have with Yan Ming. Family, and drinking beer.

Neither of which I have any problem with and if he is redefining the term "monk" I also have no problem with that. To me it is not a static definition and I see no reason why reclusives alone have provenance over a word. I view him as part of a growing trend of engaged monastics. Presently "monk" is the best thing that describes him succinctly and with the most veracity. I know for some of the people coming out of Shaolin and coming here, Ch'an is not important to them. Li Peng flat out states it wasnot his concern he just cared about gong fu. To others, it is more important. As far as I am concerned, celibacy is a lark. I grew up in the hardcore scene so now I know that not drinking for the sake of not drinking is also a lark. People need to examine the reasons. I know some of the older returning monks came back with families, and their sons even became monks. The sutras did not burn at their touch, the lohan statues did not spring to life and devour them...So to me, I don't blame some of the monks and wish they were more open about it. I've been around enough monastics to know how things really are, I mean you should see some of the Catholics. So I never had any grandiose illusions. Never bothered me to see Thich Nat Hahn pop out his cell phone, or his new monks meditate in their leather pumas. But I have seen people get up and leave from one of his dharma talks because of it. I'm overgeneralizing to make a point. But let's take for example the pedophile priests- they do not erase Mother Theresa. Do we say that Catholicism produced both kinds of people? I would say no. In one case I would say that people used Catholicism as a cover for their own internal deviance, whereas in the other, Catholicism was the catalyst for manifestation of all the good Catholicism can manifest.

For me it was important to learn about Ch'an buddhism. I prefer it to be based in the real world, and not locked within an academic process of using some tools people have made up and imposed. I've also been fortunate to travel quite a bit with SYM and I get to see a lot of stuff happen that others do not. Often, when I hear people's criticisms, and when they ask questions which are usually far from innocent and are really more assumptions and already drawn conclusions masqueraded as questions- I am very greatful for this perspective. I have absolutely no doubts about him or his provenance, as it has been repeatedly put to the test- as we have met and talked with other monastics, etc. and I have met people and characters from his past or who he has been involved with.

I'll give you an example. One time people asked Sifu a question. He eluded answering it. Afterwards I overheard the people who asked the question. Obviously they were dissatisfied. Their conclusion was a non sequitor- meaning they came up with a reason why he didn't answer it. To them he must not be able to answer it. But that is not true, he simply refused to answer. This is actually quite common amongst Chinese masters- very often you will hear about masters who "know nothing" but yet these are the gentleman who are the inheritors of known and respected systems. People often wonder also at the character of people who become monks- just like everything else, all kinds of people become monks. People often express shock at the internal divisions and manifestations of such- have they never heard of Hui Neng? How his brothers hounded him and sought to kill him. People like to have unreal monks.

What happened with this disciple in Flushing is very sad. Tragic. Even one would like to say unbelievable and horrible.

I am sure there is a lot going on with this incident and I don't have any desire to comment on it except to say how tragic and sad and that I hope everything works out as it should. Out of respect for his death, I think people should be very careful about what they say. I caught wind of someone saying that because his tongue was not extended he must have been really murdered and then hung there. But that is meaningless- the tongue means "nothing" as a Dr. friend of mine said. Guolin may be a horrible person, but an internet forum and rumor mill is not going to offer a trial or prove anything in this matter.

But I think people get a little beyond the scope in these kinds of things. Cars kill people every day. They can be cast in a way that would make them look to be great evil. But the car is a car. It can also do great good. Without ambulances and fire trucks people would die and suffer. This is not said to discount what happened at all but to provide some perspective to those who want to blame this on Shaolin. It's just that while Shaolin has been put to poor and horrible purposes, so it has been put to good.

I have seen a lot of bad things come out of Shaolin, but either above or in another post you asked where gong fu (Ch'an) is taking us. For me, it has taken me to Trinidad, Mexico, California, to prisons and prisoners with no hope, I have personally made impact in Jamaica, in NYC...we have changed people's lives in a good way and made a difference in all these places.

It's funny, I used to do a toy drive, which proved to be the source of endless ridicule even to this day it seems a vein people like to strike. Now there is no toy drive, and people also ridicule- it's all about the money, what do the monks do for people. People always say these monks are all about money- maybe some are. But I know standing right next to the student bagging about money, is a student who can not afford to pay and has not paid ever, yet was invited to train because it could help them. Sometimes even the student bagging about money is wearing a set of robes they did not pay for because for whatever reason they could not afford them or what have you. A push for money is not seen as an effort to assist De Yang, for example, but is seen as a money grab. Again, this is just from my perspective.

Anyway, like I said, I hope that whatever happened in this tragic case, it's resolution is just, dignified, and serves some good purpose if possible.

[GeneChing]

I've merged your new threads on to this one since they are most relevant here. Starting a new thread combined with the general tone of your posts (and that you've only made six posts to date, all on this topic) is jeopardizing your forum cred. Please note how long some of us have been on this forum and be respectful of our netiquette. That being said, we appreciate your contributions to this topic. I should note that within the Songshan Shaolin family here on this forum, despite our masks of member names, we all know who each other is. Earlier, I asked for some clarification from about your connection to all of this, "Clean"shaolin. To validate your statements, you should come "clean" here.

As some of you know already, I've done volunteer work with the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic for almost two decades now. I work with a lot of drug users and have seen plenty of suicides, not only in our patient community, but also amongst friends. What fascinates me about this particular thread is the general reaction to Hengshan's death. There has always been division at Shaolin - arguably since it's inception so the post CR division isn't really that new - and it's clear that Hengshan is taking a major political significance amongst the Shaolin detractors. Now, drug use is a huge political monster in America, but when we see 'the needle take another man' as Neil Young so eloquently put it, the reaction is more about the victim than the issue. I should not have been surprised that so many martial artists that are uninformed about Shaolin have used this to further damage the institution. Karma is a funny thing. While you point your fingers, some one else is judging you.

As you might imagine, I've been hearing a lot of rumors from all directions on this. There's even some question whether Hengshan committed suicide. Given my position as a researcher and media leader for Shaolin, it's not prudent for me to make any statements at this time or to add to the rumor mill. I will continue to monitor this situation to the best of my ability and share what appears in the media or seems valid here on this thread.

[Iron Cross]

I think a major issue in this entire incident is the hypocricy with these "monks"... I can speak from my wn experiences with Yan Ming on this issue.. While that does not directly relate to how Guolins runs his business I have no doubt there are similar issues..

I've seen the preeching of campassion and understanding in one voice then in the next seen the ridicule of people for being gay... I've heard the talk of discipleship and brotherhood then seen countless disciples and so called brothers expelled for the most pointless of reasons.. myself being one of them... recently another because he was not able to pay $50 to test...

I've seen the charty Rich talks about wiht letting people train without paying, I used to think that was an awesome thing. Then I've seen the most ridiculous money making scemes imaginable.. Going back to the disciple kicked out for not testing.. The demand was he now pay $200 a month for however long and a $100 make up testing fee... Charging $40 for shoes that only cost $15 in chinatown or on the internet... Requiring everyone to buy color coordinated robes for different classes. robes costs $90....

Shaolin took me to some amazing places too... Went down to Mexico to represent there teaching them for a week.. only to come back and get the cold shoulder from yan ming because I didn't go to his book signing or that I might be openly critical about some of the students behavior..

I guess I could rack up a hundred of these kinds of stories... everythin ranging from control of our actions to right speech or any number of buddhist principles...

Being a monk or a true buddhist is not measured by your shaved head, cool chinese name, the colorful robes you wear, or that you might call yourself a monk... this is always defined by ones actions... In the issue of these so called monks in the states here.. Whether it be yan ming of guolin or who else, it seems painfully clear where they stand on this... None of them really practice what they preach... and I find that sad and down right pathetic...

I give Li Peng some credit at least he was oen about how he feels and would just level the playing field...

[Premier79]

wow I've had the pleasure of training with ShiHengShan for a while and he was such a great guy. I am deeply saddened by his loss...

[richard sloan]

schemes.

lol.

you know an entire shipment of shoes was seized, I forget how many palletes...but it was enough that we were going to get outside storage. All at our loss. so umm...yeah. he charged more for shoes on the next go around because he had to pay for the same thing twice and sit on it. now we kept the price around there for the new custom shoes which are exlcusive to us by the way and in case you didn't know, and yeah, partly because he is trying to make money, sorry...apparently if you don't like someone coming up with a business plan it's not a plan it's scheming. On the shoes his margin is okay to decent. Sorry, his shoe scheme. Scheming up ways to fund an upstate temple, scheming ways to make rent, scheming ways to buy the temple computers, scheming up new ways to pay for disciple meals, get the heat turned on or buy heaters, scheming up ways to absorb the dozens of students training and equipped for free, scheming new ways to get De Yang money, to move us to a bigger place and pay for it, and tons of other things I would never even mention publicly, not to mention just to have a decent life where he is no longer duct taping flashlights to a wall and wrapping socks around his hands, and to support the other three temples...scheming scheming scheming.

new custom made robes. and I know plenty who got sets for free, but yeah, unpopular decisions must be made, egos bruised, personalities crushed, people chewed up and spit out, mistakes made, and illusions dispelled.

fact is people tend to see what they want, believe what they want, will seldom recognize their error or any larger pattern, assume the rest, and that is that. I think that is unfortunate but I also know we will all be fine and the good of Shaolin will outweigh the bad, as I myself am living proof.

that this guy's suicide is turning into chum is a little nuts and unless there is something I can personally contribute to the thread in regards to that issue- which I do not see happening, I'm over and out, I never met him never trained with him but he is now in my memory.

As I've said, whatever resolution or justice we can hope for in this tragic passing, may it come quickly and serve benefits to those left behind.

[GeneChing]

You don't have to tell me about the pitfalls of importing shoes. Remember, I'm the original Shaolin shoe (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=527) salesman (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=546). Shoes can fall under special tariffs, especially when coming out of China. But charging higher prices for goods is par for the course when it comes to the martial arts business. Keep in mind our parent company is a martial arts wholesaler, so I have a real solid idea on how much mark-up there is. But it's tough to keep a school running, much less profitable. That being said, just because the school is a 'shaolin' school, it still needs to meet its rent. And I don't think it's appropriate to be slinging at Yanming on Hengshan's suicide thread. You might create a new thread for that, or just dig up an old one. BTW, Rich, where's the new place?

I'm in the middle of another Shaolin synchronicity zone with Hengshan's death falling right when our new Shaolin special is about to hit the stands. There's even more Shaolin stuff going on that I'm dealing with right now that's totally unrelated to either situation. Shaolin effects my life in very weird ways. It's a love/hate relationship, but one that has been with me for years now. I just feel sorry for all those who couldn't handle it and are now disgruntle complainers on the web.

But enough about me, one thing that resurfaces in this thread is a fundamental misconception about monks. Westerners always view monks as all holy and such, but in fact, some are pretty messed up. Think about it for just a second. Some might 'leave the world' to pursue a higher purpose, but others, perhaps more, might 'leave the world' because they are running from something. What would it take to make you leave the world? Think about that. We can certainly discuss this at length somewhere else. I've never become a monk, but I've lived at plenty of temples and done work studies outside of Shaolin. But again, enough about me.

I'm very interested in finding out more about Yanzhang. I don't know him at all and he's obviously a huge player in this terrible tragedy. He's the one making all the statements to the press. Does anyone know more about him?

[Iron Cross]

"fact is people tend to see what they want, believe what they want, will seldom recognize their error or any larger pattern"

Ah rich that is the most truth I have ever heard you say before... I would suggest you think long and hard about what you jsut said there but I doubt you would in any serious sense.. so, whatever...

peace

[hasayfu]

I find this topic sad but enthralling. My kids train with a Shaolin "Disciple" (he has been very clear he is not a monk) and I have only seen good things from him. Of course, there could be hidden things. I asked him about the incident and he didn't comment on the NY people but said it's not surprising for someone to fell totally alone here in the US.

You are brought here as a performer/trainer and don't know the culture, don't speak the language and unsure of your future. If you add a hostile living environment to that, it could be unbearable.

On a different note, looks like at least one english site has picked up the story:
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=b8bd81f8d45fca9cd0197 912ef7aa8da

Pretty much the same stuff with a few tidbits of news.

[GeneChing]

I'm cutting and pasting it here for posterity, just so it's cached on this thread when that link expires.


Shaolin Monk Suicide Shocks New York Chinese Community

Sing Tao Daily, News Digest, Joe Xia and Crystal Feng, Translation by Eugenia Chien, Posted: Dec 01, 2006

NEW YORK – The suicide of a Shaolin temple monk has shocked the Chinese community in New York, who are now questioning the treatment of monks by their temples.

Heng Shan, a 27-year-old Buddhist monk, hung himself in the backyard of a New York residence on Nov. 24. Heng Shan had been ill and fell into depression when he lost his legal status in the United States. The New York Police Department 109th Precinct has ruled Heng Shan’s death as suicide.

Heng Shan immigrated to the United States in 2003 on an H1 work visa sponsored by the New York Shaolin Temple Abbot Guo Lin in Flushing to teach martial arts. But like many monks, Heng Shan received no pay or spending money from the temple, which provided the monks with room and board.

Heng Shan’s death stunned the Buddhist community, some of whom hold Abbot Guo Lin responsible, according to Abbot Heng Lin of the Queens Shaolin Temple. She told the Sing Tao Daily that though Abbot Guo Lin sponsored H1 work visas for monks like Heng Shan, the temple did not continue filing the paperwork required for the monks to legally stay in the United States. Monks like Heng Shan came to the United States legally but became undocumented immigrants when the temples fail to file their paperwork.

The Shaolin monastery is the only Buddhist temple combining martial arts and Buddhism. It is one of the most famous schools of martial arts in the world. Monks in the Shaolin temples traditionally go through strict training and meditation. But as branches of the Shaolin Monastery developed throughout the world, people attempted to make profit from the school. The Shaolin temple has become controversial as some practitioners criticize that Buddhist discipline has been lost and others fight for the claim of being the authentic Shaolin monastery.

A woman who had donated money to the Flushing Shaolin Temple said that she had offered to help Heng Shan apply for Medicaid, which would be available even to undocumented immigrants. But Abbot Guo Lin stopped her because he felt it might attract too much trouble. She said that Abbot Guo Lin never paid the monks, who lived in poverty. With no money, family, or legal documentation, the monks could not survive outside the temples. She said that nearby residents would sometimes give the monks money so that they can send money home at the end of the year. She asked the Sing Tao Daily to withhold her name.

In response to the community’s criticism, Abbot Guo Lin said that Heng Shan was important to the temple and that the temple had been nurturing his potential. He said that he wouldn’t mistreat one of his favorite pupils and that the public should not believe rumors. At a press conference on Nov. 28, Abbot Guo Lin said that the temple does not owe Heng Shan back pay. He said that the temple had offered to mail money to Heng Shan’s parents but Heng Shan refused the offer.

According to the Sing Tao Daily, the New York Shaolin temple is registered as a non-profit organization. As a non-profit organization, the temple is bound by U.S. labor laws when it hired martial monks to teach martial arts at its temples. Immigration lawyer Zhang Zhong-yuan told the Sing Tao Daily that as an employer, the temple must honor its agreement with the monks. But Abbot Guo Lin said that monks typically are not paid by their temples, but that the Shaolin temple provided food, shelter, and medical expenses.

Zhang said that food and shelter can account for only a part of the monks’ pay. He said that payment dispute between employers and employees is prevalent in the Chinese community. If the government pursues the situation, Zhang said, there is a high possibility that employers will be sued.

A spokesperson for the Chinese Embassy in New York said that the embassy has contacted Heng Shan’s parents in Anhui province but they have not made plans to come to the United States for funeral arrangements. New York Citycouncilman John Liu said that his office has received many letters about the monk’s death, but it is still too early to say whether anyone was at fault or whether a crime has been committed.

I was just interviewed by Rong Xiaoqing of Sing Tao Daily, who's doing another piece on this. She was very interested in the complications that immigrant Shaolin monks might be facing as they come to America. I think her deadline is Wednesday, so if anyone sees that article before I post it here, please post it here.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

wow i stay away frm da shaolin community for a few months(weeks?)...and i come back to this??...
how sad.....
omitofu
=x =x

[mantis7]

Hi All,

Well, I have been around for a while in the martial arts community and I have heard plenty of the crazy stories about all of the "monks" in NYC. I am not going to add to them here but I would like to comment on an sifu/student relationships and martial arts instructors in general.

As Students, we often forget that our teachers are normal people like us and we often idolize them or are overly critical of them. These 'monks' are people just like any of us and they have their good sides and dark sides. Just because they attempt to travel down a path of religious practice does not make them any less prone to immoral behavior then the average person. If anything they are more prone to failure because no one can follow the straight and narrow forever. The longer on the road with no slip us probably the longer the fall.

Now, I have known quite a few famous teachers in the martial arts world. Once you get beyond the teacher/student fascade you will see they are o diffrent then your friend Fred.Also, they are just like Fred because some were drug dealers, addicts, wife beaters, womaniser, drunks, racist, or just plain old Mfers. Does this take away from their gung fu skill and ability to teach? Certain qualities or lack thereof will often force us to either stay around a certain individual or leave them.
This hold true for the Shaolin 'Monk' situation. I suggest everyone who keeps viewing these 'monks' as budda himself get their heads out of the Shaw Brothers Saturday afternoon special DvD collection and see these men for what they really are.

This is for those who get upset that these 'Men' are proffiting off of their teachings and advice or Shoes... I say grow up, they came here for a better life and now must make use of what skills they have in order to survive. Is it right that they behave a certain way, charge a certain fee, kick students out, treat other special? Truthfully it doesn't matter because they are the ones who have to live by it. they will either ruin their reputations and drive away all buisness. If you do not like the way a teacher runs his school let your wallet voice your opinion. You walk away with that teacher's knowledge and a portion of income. other than that, no one can really say anything about how a person runs his buisness. As long as it is legal he can sell his shoes for 300$ like nike does. LOL nike shoes cost about 25$ to make and they charge 150$ for a pair.... If you get mad at anyone it should be nike.. dam shoe making monks!

But anyways, grow up, get our collective heads out of the shaolin legend via movies and swordsmen stories, and remeber these "MONKS' are "MEN' and are prone to evil at the same rate as we all are.

[Shaolinlueb]

Even one of my "ex"-heroes,(like how Guolin and Yanming were), Coach Qiao lifu, once a honorary coach for the early Shaolin temple, national Sanshou king, one of the first Chinese who fought the Thais in early 80's, were also shot by over 30 police for kidnapping and killing. They actually shot his when he was having sex with a hooker, they were so afraid of his Shaolin Kung fu, he was really, really good.

that is awesome. his kung fu was realy good so they shot him during sex!! LOL i wish my kung fu was that good. so when people challenge me its when i'm getting it on LOL. hahahahahahahahahaha sorry

i just found that whole thing funny.

[richard sloan]

Something the last poster wrote struck a nerve with me.

Without going into details I was not exactly what you would call an angel, let's just leave it at that. I have done a lot of things I am not too proud of now when I look back, and I feel pretty lucky, although I do have a lot of stories which I like to tell and people seem to like to hear.

But now I am different.

People do change. Sometimes for the worse, sometimes better. One of the most inspiring people I know, even though he is kind of an @sshole, was a priest in my parish who was a former detective working narcotics in Jamaica Queens. Another person I find to be very inspiring is a former bouncer bare knuckle guy I used to work with. One night after work an off duty cop called him the n word and not with a ga. Of course he was drunk, and he was built like a brick sh!thouse. So he went to his trunk, took out a knife, went to the guy and carved him up like a deer. Spilled his guts into the street, literally.

Well he did a bid for the body, now he is out he is a fervent proponent of the big brother big sister program, does all kinds of youth counseling. He has changed people's lives.

I'm just saying, people who knew him then wouldn't exactly be able to tell you about him now.

[hasayfu]

I noticed the following reader comment. It gives a little more detail. Does anyone know if the name identifies a real person?



Sanxin on Dec 04, 2006 at 20:46:37 said:

Shaolin Martial Arts Instructor Hanged Himself. He worked for “Shaolin Monk” Guolin Shi in New York for three years, never got any salary, Shi Guolin made him illegal and didn’t tell him….

-- See news nov.26 to 30 on www.singtao.com, china press, world jounal, or typing shi heng shan in Chinese on line --

Jimei Wang (Buddist Name Shi Hengshan), 27 years old, a Chinese Kung Fu instructor of Shaolin Temple Overseas Headquarter (a Buddhist Temple and Martial Arts Center) at 41st Ave, Flushing, hanged himself around 12:40 pm on Friday, Nov. 24, 2006 in the backyard of an old couples near Flushing Botanical Garden. He was found by the couple when they threw the garbage. He was took to the emergency room in New York City Queens Hospital. He was pronounced dead at around five o’clock. ( Please check with hospital record and check police’s record-Police Branch 109)

Jimei Wang was hired as a Chinese Martial Arts Instructor with H1B1 Visa from China, by Guolin Shi, the president of Shaolin Temple Overseas Headquarter at 41st Ave, Flushing. He worked for Guolin Shi for three years, but didn’t get any salary from him. He was sick many times, and Guolin Shi didn’t help him to get medical insurance to see the doctor, because he didn't want to get in "trouble". In September, 2006, he was seriously injured at work. Guolin Shi didn’t give him money to see the doctor, but just kicked him out and told Wang that he didn’t extend Wang’s visa and his working visa is expired and told Wang that he is no longer legal in USA. Shi Guolin kicked him out, and didn’t want to give Wang his passport. “Why he didn’t want to give me my passport?” "Tell me is that true I am illegal now?" Hengshan told to his friend. Wang told friends that he doesn’t have his passport and money to go back to China, and he couldn’t even work in USA, because he is illegal now. He believed Guolin Shi will extend visa for him, but he was told when he got kick out from Guolin that he didn’t extend visa for him. "Yea, don't go back to China, I am afraid I will kill my parents as well." He told his friend.(See the tragedy of other instructor mentioned below.)

At around 12:00 pm at noon, just before he commit suicides, he told friends, “I have an appointment with my God-mom (Ms Tsia) and Xiao Lung(Shi Xiao Lung), I want to get my passport back. buy a ticket, and go back to China, and find a place to become a Buddhist Monk.” (His God-mom is actually Guolin’s friend and supporter. ) At 12:50 the police called his friend, he is in New York Queens Hosptial.

During the time he got kicked out from Shaolin Temple, he asked friends to let him stay. One of his Kungfu brothers says “Hengshan pointed at the calendar and said that wherever he went and whatever he did, Guolin always knows”. Friends knew that he already had serious mental illness and disorder.

Yuguo Song was another tragedy from Guolin’s Shaolin Temple. He was hired by Guolin Shi in 2002. He jumped from the second floor inside of Shaolin Temple and tried to kill himself. He was survived, but he was seriously injured and became disabled. He was sent back to China in 2003. He became mental disordered and killed his wife and son. His son was survived, but the wife was dead. He is now in the Mental Disordered Center in Henan, China.

Guolin Shi used the same ways to control both of them and even more people, He told Yuguo Song and Jimei Wang to “dress like a Buddist monk”, and act like a monk, chanting in front of people. Using the name of Shaolin Buddhism, he can make more money. “We saw them getting mental illed and disordered, but we have no ways to help him get out of that fantasy and illusion” His Kungfu teacher from China said. The way Guolin controls and kills people is not by knife, medicine, or physical force, but by mind. He used about 4 kung fu instructors for the past 10 years to help him to grow up the martial arts school, but never paid salary to the instructors. He used those talent martial artist as his slaves, and simply made them became his disciples, and told them to be a Buddhist (not materialism, following the rules…). He also told everybody, including the reporters that Shaolin Temple is non-profit organization, and has no money, that’s why the instructors agree not to get money from him. But lots of Chinese people say he has houses, wife , and children (Hengshan sometimes help him to take care of his children)..

Hengshan's Friend
Sanxin

Notes: To reporters: Please use your words to rewrite the story and tragedy, and please report this news for the justice and human’s rights. Please do more research. We don’t want to see more people and great talents killed by the fake religious evil. Thank you very much. The police office has the record, the time and location. And please seeking and exploring for more evil things going on in this temple.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, once again I am happy that I am on my own, and follow no one.

[AJM]

Shi Guolin is obviously an MKULTRA controller. What Shi Hengshang received was called Omega training. Hopefully Guolins "Butterflies" will come back and get him.

[GeneChing]

Did you pull that off a forum? Because a 'sanxin' has emailed me privately about trying to join this forum.

[hasayfu]

Not a forum, Gene but the news article I referenced. If you click the link you'll see that they offer blog type comments.

checking today, I found these two comments. Let me know if you don't want me to post their stuff here. I'm just following your lead.



Tang Jie Sheng on Dec 05, 2006 at 16:52:43 said:

As a temple, monks don't normally get paid. By definition, monks are not supposed to have worldly possessions and live a very austere life. I'm not sure what the specific procedures are with the overseas Shaolin Temple in Queens but this is an important point.

It's too bad something was not done after Heng Shan made his first suicide attempt. Jumping from a 2nd floor is 'survivable'- I think it was a cry for help.

I studied under Shi Guo Lin for 3 years and I can personally stand up for his character. I absolutely do not believe in my heart that he could have such evil intentions. I don't know the circumstances of this tragedy but I feel it is too easy to make Shi Guo Lin the scapegoat for our grief.

I wish all people involved to realize their Buddha nature. - Amituo Fo


Shi Yan Cheng on Dec 05, 2006 at 05:26:28 said:

We think about the family and our feeling with them.

Omitofo, Shi Yan Cheng

[Shaolinlueb]

i met goulin once when i went there with a friend. i didnt like him, wasnt very humble. i went to see shi yan ming and i cant say enough great stuff about him. he was very nice and everything you would expect.

i hope those guys find the peace in afterlife that they couldnt find in real life.

[glossi]

I am a recent student of HengShan Shifu... he was an extremely graceful, talented and dedicated practitioner. He was fascinating, humble and kind.. but fierce as a fighter (see Shaolin Black Tiger Claw demo DVD). I guess people said the "Buddha Nature" was strong with him, he was bright and emotive. Sensitive and not acclimated to New York or American culture. And maybe the austere and isolated life was too austere and too isolated.

Monks and thier disciples are human and may be imperfect, but there is a lot of mourning going on for HengShan. A LOT. A huge amount for a man who needed more compassion and kindness and HELP (financial, legal, medical, emotional support) so he could see how loved he was and see a future for himself. Deserved it.

But jumping from the second floor.. that wasn't suicide, that was a young practitioner in his prime, fresh from the temple in China showing his stuff.

[Royal Dragon]

But jumping from the second floor.. that wasn't suicide, that was a young practitioner in his prime, fresh from the temple in China showing his stuff.

Reply]
I had the same thoughts. I used to jump out of the second story bedroom window all the itme when I was yonger. Never got hurt in the least. You'd think a Suicide attempt would use a greater height.

[GeneChing]

Does someone have more details about this second story jump incident? If it is a red herring in Hengshan's suicide story, that reflects rather poorly upon the reporters.

Shaolin is always complicated - to be perfectly honest, that's it's appeal for me - Hengshan's suicide has so many contributing elements. It's very hard to sort out the details. As this story is developing, several points emerge that might need some clarification.

For one, none of the monks that defected (including Guolin and Yanming) can be 'officially recognized' by Shaolin Temple. Abbot Yongxin holds a political office which makes it very awkward if he were to recognize defectors. That being said, Yongxin has received both Guolin and Yanming in the Dragon Room at Shaolin, and he's never disavowed either of them, which is the most diplomatic recognition he can give.

Another point is about monks being paid. This one is really sticky since traditionally Buddhist monks do not have an income. They live as beggars, and this is something that is often mocked in within Asian society, but is completely overlooked in the West (and even when Kwai Chang Caine never drew a paycheck). In fact, Guolin was one of the few monks that I know that did a traditional kuxingseng (bitter monk trek) - this is a traditional vision quest where a monk treks from one temple to another, begging for food all along the way. Of course today, especially in America, monks get paid. Some get paid in China too. It's a whole different scenario. This gets really sticky in terms of how Hengshan et.al. were brought over to this country - on what kind of visa. If the visa was a work visa, then there probably was a pledge of income and if Guolin was in violation of that, he will probably face problems with INS. Where this might get really sticky is that, and I'm speaking in general now, many immigrants from all nations face a form of indentured service to their hosts. Some of these stories are rather nightmarish, but they exist in all American immigrant communities, not just Chinese. I've heard of many such cases in the martial arts field. That's very troublesome, but par for the course, sad to say.

[glossi]

To clarify... the main training room at the temple in flushing is a big, not quite double storied room. There are stairs that lead up to a set of small rooms that overlook the training area- there is a waist high wall as a barrier. So you can jump over that short barrier into the training area. Higher than a loft in an apartment. Pretty high, I'd never jump it... but a daredevil could, would and has.

[glossi]

Also, I think Guolin is "recognized".. I was there (at the temple) to receive Abbot Yongxin when he came to New York several weeks ago and saw him with my own eyes. He acknowledged us and we did the traditional bow to our teacher's master.

[glossi]

that height is pretty high, I would call it just about second story height. I would NEVER jump it and only a daredevil would, but it was kind of a HengShan legend that circulated around the students. "that time when Hengshan first came and he jumped that wall".. by the time I heard it he had done a flip before he landed. But if you ever see footage of his acrobatic skill, it would not surprise you.

He used to specialize in the "frog form" and could do the most graceful backflips, amazing. Just look at the cover, even, of his DVD. I just have to repeat that this is a man, was a man, with a real natural artistic talent- like a Shaolin ballet dancer. He was ALWAYS humble and self depricating about it.

You should have seen how the children he taught cried at his service at the temple. It was heartbreaking. But I think he was both envied and admired. And taken for granted.

Thanks for listening folks, I'll make my exit- I'm not a regular here, I'm a grieving student of HengShan who found you through a google search.

[hasayfu]

I'm new to following this side of the Shaolin family but a long time southern shaolin follower. My condolences to you and your Shi-Xiong/Di.

As someone practicing Shaolin, I hope you find this area a place to share your experiences and soak up others.

Be well.

[GeneChing]

Here's a translation of an abridged version of the article that appeared in Sing Tao Weekly (Sing Tao's Sunday special insert magazine). I didn't do the translation. It was emailed to me by a Shaolin friend who received it from a relative that lives in Asia.


Friday, December 15, 2006
Kung fu frightening

RONG XIAOQING

On November 24, a gloomy and chilly day after America's Thanksgiving celebration, monk Shi Hengshan from the Flushing Shaolin Temple was found hanged by a couple as they put out the rubbish in New York's Chinatown.
While the 27-year-old left no note, authorities ruled that he had taken his own life. The suicide has seen rumours, innuendo and allegations about his death circulate on websites and in Chinese-language newspapers, with Shi Hengshan's friends and associates blaming Shi Guolin, the founding abbot of the Shaolin Temple in Flushing, New York for the tragedy.
They claim Shi Guolin, who had helped him come to the US from the mainland three years ago to work as a kung fu master in the temple, had kept his passport and hadn't been paying him before firing him shortly before his death. In response, Shi Guolin held a tearful news conference saying he was saddened and confused by the suicide - forbidden in Buddhist teachings - and denied the allegations. Shi Guolin admitted the monks did not get paid but said they received free board, food and medical expenses.
While the reasons behind Shi Hengshan's death remain murky, the tragedy shows the personal and spiritual turmoil faced by the Shaolin monks when they leave the mainland to chase the American dream. And many are choosing marriage, money and an easier way of life over spirituality.
Growing up in the 1,500-year-old Song Mount Shaolin Temple in Henan province , the world's spiritual heartland of Chinese kung fu and Chan Buddhism, involves tough training as well as strict adherence to Buddhist principles. There is no meat, alcohol or women, and often severe punishment for rule breaches.
For most Americans, the word Shaolin first entered the vocabulary in the 1970s through popular TV series Kung Fu, in which David Carradine played a half-Chinese, half-American fighting monk. His character grew up in the Song Mount Shaolin Temple before he escaped to the US after he confronted the emperor.
In reality, no Shaolin fighting monks settled in the US until 1992, when two absconded from a touring team in San Francisco. Shi Guolin was one, and he set up the Flushing Shaolin Temple, while the other, Shi Yanming, founded the USA Shaolin Temple in Manhattan. The number of fighting monks in the US has grown ever since.
The influx of Shaolin monks has run parallel to the renaissance of Chinese kung fu in the US. Fighting experts such as Jackie Chan and Jet Li Lianjie have replaced Bruce Lee as Hollywood stars, movies such as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon have drawn critical acclaim and a recent survey by the Sporting Goods Manufacturing Association found there were 6.9 million Americans practising kung fu in 2004, a five-fold increase on 2001. This interest has proved to be a boon for kung fu masters, especially those who can claim an association with Shaolin.
"When I first toured the US with delegations, I had heard from other Shaolin disciples who had opened Shaolin temples here that the market for kung fu was very large, but it is even larger than I thought," said Shi Xingwei, a fighting monk who runs Shaolin Kung Fu Chan in Las Vegas. The school only opened in October 2005 and already has more than 100 students.
Fighting monk Shi Xinghao, 33, is another who stayed in the US after coming with a touring delegation in 1998 and has since opened the Shaolin Kung Fu Academy in Houston. Shi Xinghao remembers the strict training he received from the masters at the Song Mount Shaolin and the high expectations of his parents.
"It was common for the masters to beat disciples to push us to work harder," said Shi Xinghao, who also recalls his father didn't allow him to go back home during Lunar New Year in the first year he was sent to the temple. "I was only 13, but my dad wanted me to practise more to catch up with my peers who got there earlier."
When Shi Xinghao used these tough training methods at his Houston school he found the students stopped coming. "My friend told me if I beat students, they could even sue me. That scared the hell out of me," said Shi Xinghao, who has become much more lenient.
He now lives a more American life. "There is almost no way to strictly follow the Buddhist disciplines in the modern world," said Shi Xinghao, who considers himself to be half-monk, half-secular and prepared to marry if he finds the right woman.
Zhang Lipeng, who became a Shaolin disciple when he was five and had been following the disciplines until he moved to Europe in 1996 when he was 22, now believes that he was never a true monk.
"I am not a monk and I have never been one," he said. Mr Zhang said a real Shaolin monk had to know both kung fu and Buddhist scripts, but he only learned kung fu. "I was at most a bodyguard for the Shaolin temple," he said.
Mr Zhang has since abandoned his monk name, Shi Xingpeng, married an American woman, and moved to the US. Shi is the universal surname for devout Buddhists.
He has a son, Mathew, six, whom he does not force to learn kung fu, and he is reducing the size of his Shaolin Kung Fu and Tai-chi Academy in New Jersey and focusing on producing a movie.
"If you are in the US, you have to accept the American culture. It can be hard, but coming here is your own choice," Mr Zhang said.
Founder of the USA Shaolin Temple in New York, Shi Yanming, has also married and has no taboos about what he eats. But he still insisted he is not only a monk, but a higher level monk than most in the Shaolin system.
"If you have Buddha in your heart, the forms are not that important. This is the essence of Chan," said Shi Yanming, whose six-year-old son Jinlong and four-year-old daughter Jianhong also bear the last name "Shi". "Buddha gives all I have now, so my children also belong to Buddha."
But making personal decisions is perhaps easier than the ethical and spiritual questions that arise from running a business. Monks face the tricky question of how far they should go as businessmen.
Shi Hengshan's death and the allegations he was exploited have been a hot topic on russbo.com, a US-based online Shaolin culture forum.
One contributor using the name "Premier" said: "I am totally speechless about Guolin. When I joined his temple, the first thing he told me is did I pay the tuition money. I dunno, but for some reason that bothered me."
Another called "Iron Cross" was less specific. "All these `monks' are total bulls*** artists. They create this impossible setups and stories [sic] no one can even really verify here and charge way too much money for basic martial arts training," he said.
The Flushing Shaolin Temple charges US$300 for a three-month membership, similar to the fees for mainstream gyms in New York, but many in the US believe the monks should not profit from the temples.
"There's this American perception, I think it's because of the David Carradine Kung Fu TV show, that monks should not make money and they should just roam around the world," said Gene Ching, the associate publisher of San Francisco's Kung Fu magazine. "But martial arts is a business, and every school has to pay their rent."
However, Richard Russell, a doctor in Las Vegas and a Shaolin expert who founded russbo.com, said monks who focus on going commercial often find something important missing.
Dr Russell has visited the Song Mount Shaolin Temple five times for training since 1995 and has got to know many of the monks. In 2002, he helped two get working visas to the US to teach in Las Vegas for a while before returning to be replaced by others.
"The monks grow up in a society which is very rigorous. When you bring them to America, they are astonished by the quality of life, they realise they have freedoms that they never really experienced before, and their desire for material needs and to make money is particularly strong," said Dr Russell. "It's quite possible that they don't understand that to exercise those freedoms there comes a certain amount of responsibility, which we learned when we were growing up in this society, and that they haven't had the opportunity to learn."
But Shi Yanming claims he was not attracted to the US by the material life, even though he now works out of a renovated 5,000 sq ft temple in the desirable SoHo area of Manhattan.
"When I was in China, I was famous enough and it was easy for me to live affluently," he said. "But when I decided to move here, a backpack was all I had." When he first landed in New York's Chinatown, he rented a small abandoned garment factory which was a kung fu school by day and his bedroom at night. There was no heating or hot water, he recalled.
Shi Yanming is now applying for visas for three students from a Shaolin kung fu school on the mainland to help him expand with another temple on the west coast. But he said he was not worried about the newcomers having problems fitting in and believes the Chan philosophy will help them cope with the new environment. He cited a well-known story about Da Mo, the Indian monk who brought the sect to China 1,500 years ago and founded Shaolin.
"Da Mo once dug four wells which he filled with water tasting bitter, spicy, sour and sweet, and asked his disciples to take them one by one," said Shi Yanming.
"Life is just like that, if you keep going, it will turn from bitter to sweet."

[lunghushan]

"Zhang Lipeng, who became a Shaolin disciple when he was five and had been following the disciplines until he moved to Europe in 1996 when he was 22, now believes that he was never a true monk.
"I am not a monk and I have never been one," he said. Mr Zhang said a real Shaolin monk had to know both kung fu and Buddhist scripts, but he only learned kung fu. "I was at most a bodyguard for the Shaolin temple," he said."

This is what I've been trying to say all along in various bad arguments, I guess, is that Shaolin is a travesty. Here's an actual 'monk' saying the same thing.

Anyway ... whatever. Sorry the guy died. Who knows if it was abuse or what, though, it seems hard to determine from this.

[richard sloan]

"Zhang Lipeng, who became a Shaolin disciple when he was five and had been following the disciplines until he moved to Europe in 1996 when he was 22, now believes that he was never a true monk.
"I am not a monk and I have never been one," he said. Mr Zhang said a real Shaolin monk had to know both kung fu and Buddhist scripts, but he only learned kung fu. "I was at most a bodyguard for the Shaolin temple," he said."

This is what I've been trying to say all along in various bad arguments, I guess, is that Shaolin is a travesty. Here's an actual 'monk' saying the same thing.

Anyway ... whatever. Sorry the guy died. Who knows if it was abuse or what, though, it seems hard to determine from this.

He says that because he never was interested in learning Buddhism.

There's an article in which he details his thoughts.

Other monks do place a great deal of emphasis on Ch'an.

Don't you freakin' read.

[lunghushan]

He says that because he never was interested in learning Buddhism.

There's an article in which he details his thoughts.

Other monks do place a great deal of emphasis on Ch'an.

Don't you freakin' read.

Pardon me, but I didn't see where he said that wasn't his interest. It sounded like they never taught him.

You realize China was a bunch of communists, slaughtered the monks, very few survived and those few that did survive passed martial arts on in China, where religion was frowned upon from the communist era?

When they first started practicing martial arts again after the cultural revolution, they didn't teach fighting applications. It was wushu forms.

I give up. Shaolin is Disneyland. It is not a temple, it's a money-making institution, and I'm tired of character assassination arguments as to otherwise.

Anyways, if you want to know where I got the entire Shaolin is martial Disneyland thing, I didn't make it up. I got it from Gene. http://www.wle.com/kungfu/node/34. 24 Shaolin temples. Does that sound like there's just one? No, it's a Franchise.

[CFT]

What I find more astounding is this:

Founder of the USA Shaolin Temple in New York, Shi Yanming, has also married and has no taboos about what he eats. But he still insisted he is not only a monk, but a higher level monk than most in the Shaolin system.He can be a good Buddhist, but surely cannot be a monk?!

[richard sloan]

Pardon me, but I didn't see where he said that wasn't his interest. It sounded like they never taught him.

You realize China was a bunch of communists, slaughtered the monks, very few survived and those few that did survive passed martial arts on in China, where religion was frowned upon from the communist era?

When they first started practicing martial arts again after the cultural revolution, they didn't teach fighting applications. It was wushu forms.

I give up. Shaolin is Disneyland. It is not a temple, it's a money-making institution, and I'm tired of character assassination arguments as to otherwise.

Anyways, if you want to know where I got the entire Shaolin is martial Disneyland thing, I didn't make it up. I got it from Gene. http://www.wle.com/kungfu/node/34. 24 Shaolin temples. Does that sound like there's just one? No, it's a Franchise.

You admit that some survived. And incredulously, your next supposition is that they would let the dharma die out, and would not transmit the Shaolin dharma because of the Red Guard and the CR. And yet, we miraculously have the transmission. How do you suppose we have this treasure so rich even the word treasure can not denote it's value?

NONE of what you post after that admission, that some survived to teach means sh!t sherlock. And please do not presume to tell me my history, because what you post after your admission, your conclusion, is an insult. To read your post, and to think of Su Xi struggling out of his wheelchair just to taste a little pao chuan and xiao hong again...it practically renders me speechless.

LOL. Of ALL the countless - I mean, the massive body of texts Gene has composed which provide context- that is what you come away with.

Unreal.

Do you realize that Gene is in the family of De Cheng, who received transmission from Su Yuan, whose lineage, like several other monks, predated the 1928 Shi You San attacks? They NEVER stopped, the line is UNBROKEN- Xing Zhen, Su Yun, Su Xi, So Goong, Wan Heng, others...and this becomes obvious if you put the legwork in and pay the dues to the right people. The CH'AN is there. The GONG FU is there- and depending on who you train with it's the same bag, so it only becomes obvious the line is unbroken. It's even intact through folk masters. This does not, and is not meant to, suggest that the stresses under which Shaolin has been yanked into this era has not occluded or shrouded her essence from those such as yourself, and don't take the responses to you as anything other than a heated record correction.

Your analogy is worthless because nobody ever trained you how to think logically or frame an argument, which makes your opinions basically worthless and your Disneyland analogy more than a little off the mark. It's another classic non sequitor. It's like saying that because Disney animators all now use computers it's impossible that any of the animation staff could still draw with pencils, or that because Disney has a theme park they can't animate. And the laugh of it is you're saying it in front of people who ARE still using pencils, to keep with the analogy.

Why don't you get back in your time machine and re-watch the CR as it unfolded at the Temple. Bring your cam corder.

Li Peng had an article in the mag wherein he basically flat out said he was only interested in gong fu, so you're pardoned for being ignorant- my issue is if you care to burn the calories to offer an opinion at least make the attempt to inform yourself, and where you don't really know try and refrain from pretending you do. now please breath through the nose and oxygenate.

I'm tired of mouthbreathing, baseless opinions, frankly.

[richard sloan]

Just to add another nail into your post's coffin, here's the linked article, which Gene, please forgive me cousin, I have italicized some things here which you would do well to absorb and learn more about, capisce?

Gene's essay is full of important context. You seem to have the abillity to automatically strip out all context.


Lazy Dragon Stretches Its Spine

by Gene Ching - Head Shaolin and Tai Chi Chuan Instructor

One of history's greatest warriors and strategists, Napoleon Bonaparte, warned the world not to wake the "sleeping dragon" that is China. He never considered what might happen if China was to rise up on its own. As the Pacific Rim becomes the new economic frontier, the slumber of that dragon called China is being disturbed by its noisy neighbors.

Art reflects culture, and the martial arts are no exception. As martial artists in the Western world, we all have a unique window into the latest developments in Asia. However, it seems that only a few of us are concerned enough to look through that window carefully. Unfortunately, martial arts outside of Asia can be very myopic. Last year was the 1500th anniversary of the founding of the original Shaolin Temple in Henan, which was probably the biggest birthday in the entire history of martial arts so far. Three separate massive celebrations were held around the temple, and martial pilgrims from all over the world travelled to the temple to pay their respects. The coverage of this international and historic event in the West was shamefully small.
For regular readers of my column, exclusive to this publication, I have shared some of my experiences as one of those martial pilgrims at the Temple in Henan last summer. The response to these articles have been overwhelming. There is so little information about the real Shaolin Temple available in the West that the martial community is ravenous for the facts. Many of the responses demonstrate an overwhelming misconception about what the Shaolin Temple is, was, and might be. We are all more willing to believe simple romantic legends than complex truths. This lack of information weakens western martial arts, making us like trees without roots, waiting to be blown down by the next gust of wind.

The truth is that trying to describe China to someone who has never been there is very difficult. Describing the magnitude of martial arts in China to someone who has never experienced it first hand is even more challenging. With a huge percentage of the world's largest population practicing Kung Fu, China is an overwhelming martial arts leviathan. China's Kung Fu is the sleeping dragon in the martial arts world, and the Shaolin Temple is one of the many prize jewels in that Dragon's horde of treasures.

It is important to point out that there are many other places to go for martial arts excellence in China. Beijing is brimming with martial arts, although most of it is modern competitive Wushu. Jinan, the birthplace of mantis style, in the heart of Shandong, has a long reputation for great martial arts as demonstrated on our new video from the Jinan Traditonal Wushu Tournament (see page ??). There are also many other martial monasteries on holy mountains. Wudangshan, Maoshan, Ermeishan, Kunlunshan, are all sacred places known for their legendary martial arts ("shan" means mountain).
Furthermore, there is more than one Shaolin Temple. The Henan Shaolin Temple that I visited was the first one and the most famous one, however, all of the legends about Shaolin cannot be generalized to this singular place. According the senior Shaolin Monk, Shi Yan Ming, there are about 24 Shaolin Temples currently in operation, with about 82 people who can earnestly claim the title of being a Shaolin Monk. Only six of those monks are living outside of China, three in the United States (including Shi Yan Ming, see page ??).

In short, the Henan Shaolin Temple is only one of many places in China to go to study martial arts. If you go there with the expectation of finding the lonely mystic temple we have seen depicted in the movies, you will be sorely disappointed. The Shaolin Temple is more like the "Disneyland" of the martial arts world. Most of the economy of Shaolin village is tourist, and if you go there, you will be one of a million tourists that visit the temple each year. Now you don't have to sit outside of the temple gates in the snow for days to gain entrance, you can just buy a ticket and spend the whole day there. You don't have to spy on the monks training yard to see demonstrations or steal techniques, you can just arrange a demonstration in the demonstration hall and even receive private lessons at your hotel courtyard. Most of these demonstrations are modern Wushu instead of traditional Shaolin, since it is more entertaining for tourists. There are even gift shops inside the temple!

Now before you get thouroughly disgusted with the concept of the Shaolin Temple as a tourist trap, almost every temple in China that is open to the public has gift shops inside.

*******and here let me interject this is no different than St Mark's Cathedral either, but nobody thinks the Catholic Church is fake***************



This actually has some historical precendence, since many temples would support themselves through the sale of incense, beads, and good luck trinkets. It is just a little shocking at first, but you get used to it. According to our new title The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts - 5000 years (B216), Shaolin Temple monks often performed martial arts for tourists as far back as 1573 CE (The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts - 5000 years).

So why go to Shaolin? It seems so overrated. Well, one might just as well ask why go to Disneyland. Imagine a place where everyone wears training uniforms all the time because everyone is training all the time. Imagine everyone carrying martial arts weapons casually down the streets or up in the mountains on their way to practice. Imagine thousands of students, dozens of schools and martial arts equipment stores residing on about two miles of road. It is like "Valhalla", the warrior's "heaven", where you can fight and train every day and party every night with drinking contests, martial arts movies and karaoke (!). You can hike stunningly beautiful mount Song, or play the latest bootlegged martial arts videogame with some of the local young students. You can meditate at the very spot where Ta Mo spent his nine years, or you can hustle the tourists who speak your language. If you are a martial artist who likes really intense training, the Shaolin Temple is constant and relentless fun. It's the never-never land of the martial arts world.

I enjoyed my journey to Shaolin Temple so much that I am endevouring to return soon. I think about what's happening in the Western martial arts world all the time since this is where I live. And yet, I am continually drawn back to the East, back to the land of the sleeping dragon.

[GeneChing]

I'm actually impressed by that LHS. I wish I could claim that I made up the 'Shaolin Disneyland' thing, but I was really only relating a comment that had been floating around the martial circles. That being said, I stand behind that particular old article. As for the 24 temples, that's Yanming's quote. It's not an official count. And that is rather dated now since that article was published many years ago.

Here's our cover story on Lipeng: Transformation of a Monk: Shaolin Star Zhang Li Peng(aka Shi Xing Peng) Comes to Brooklyn (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=145) by Martha Burr. I also mention him in my coverage of our 10 year anniversary (see The 10 Year Anniversary of Kungfu Qigong Gala Benefit Hangover: A Shaolin Side-Trip (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=257)) and in the opening of my first Shaolin Trip piece (Shaolin Trips - Episode One: Open Two Doors (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=469)).


Shaolin Monk Suicide Shocks New York Chinese Community (http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=b8bd81f8d45fca9cd0197 912ef7aa8da)
Sing Tao Daily, News Digest, Joe Xia and Crystal Feng, Translation by Eugenia Chien, Posted: Dec 01, 2006 Review it on NewsTrust

NEW YORK – The suicide of a Shaolin temple monk has shocked the Chinese community in New York, who are now questioning the treatment of monks by their temples.

Heng Shan, a 27-year-old Buddhist monk, hung himself in the backyard of a New York residence on Nov. 24. Heng Shan had been ill and fell into depression when he lost his legal status in the United States. The New York Police Department 109th Precinct has ruled Heng Shan’s death as suicide.

Heng Shan immigrated to the United States in 2003 on an H1 work visa sponsored by the New York Shaolin Temple Abbot Guo Lin in Flushing to teach martial arts. But like many monks, Heng Shan received no pay or spending money from the temple, which provided the monks with room and board.

Heng Shan’s death stunned the Buddhist community, some of whom hold Abbot Guo Lin responsible, according to Abbot Heng Lin of the Queens Shaolin Temple. She told the Sing Tao Daily that though Abbot Guo Lin sponsored H1 work visas for monks like Heng Shan, the temple did not continue filing the paperwork required for the monks to legally stay in the United States. Monks like Heng Shan came to the United States legally but became undocumented immigrants when the temples fail to file their paperwork.

The Shaolin monastery is the only Buddhist temple combining martial arts and Buddhism. It is one of the most famous schools of martial arts in the world. Monks in the Shaolin temples traditionally go through strict training and meditation. But as branches of the Shaolin Monastery developed throughout the world, people attempted to make profit from the school. The Shaolin temple has become controversial as some practitioners criticize that Buddhist discipline has been lost and others fight for the claim of being the authentic Shaolin monastery.

A woman who had donated money to the Flushing Shaolin Temple said that she had offered to help Heng Shan apply for Medicaid, which would be available even to undocumented immigrants. But Abbot Guo Lin stopped her because he felt it might attract too much trouble. She said that Abbot Guo Lin never paid the monks, who lived in poverty. With no money, family, or legal documentation, the monks could not survive outside the temples. She said that nearby residents would sometimes give the monks money so that they can send money home at the end of the year. She asked the Sing Tao Daily to withhold her name.

In response to the community’s criticism, Abbot Guo Lin said that Heng Shan was important to the temple and that the temple had been nurturing his potential. He said that he wouldn’t mistreat one of his favorite pupils and that the public should not believe rumors. At a press conference on Nov. 28, Abbot Guo Lin said that the temple does not owe Heng Shan back pay. He said that the temple had offered to mail money to Heng Shan’s parents but Heng Shan refused the offer.

According to the Sing Tao Daily, the New York Shaolin temple is registered as a non-profit organization. As a non-profit organization, the temple is bound by U.S. labor laws when it hired martial monks to teach martial arts at its temples. Immigration lawyer Zhang Zhong-yuan told the Sing Tao Daily that as an employer, the temple must honor its agreement with the monks. But Abbot Guo Lin said that monks typically are not paid by their temples, but that the Shaolin temple provided food, shelter, and medical expenses.

Zhang said that food and shelter can account for only a part of the monks’ pay. He said that payment dispute between employers and employees is prevalent in the Chinese community. If the government pursues the situation, Zhang said, there is a high possibility that employers will be sued.

A spokesperson for the Chinese Embassy in New York said that the embassy has contacted Heng Shan’s parents in Anhui province but they have not made plans to come to the United States for funeral arrangements. New York Citycouncilman John Liu said that his office has received many letters about the monk’s death, but it is still too early to say whether anyone was at fault or whether a crime has been committed.

[lunghushan]

Well, I'm going to take a TKO on the Shaolin thread because I don't have time to rebut any more arguments. So you win the argument, Richard. :)

[Songshan]

It's not a TKO. It's just some of you need to understand what you read. There are some that will absolutely debunk Shaolin and there some of us who feel like Shaolin changed our lives. To each their own.

[richard sloan]

I fail to see how you could possibly rebut the existence of actual people.

[lunghushan]

I think it's a TKO. It's a submission. I'm tired of arguing about it. Kindof like arguing with my dad about the Bible. Or kicking a brick wall. LOL

[GeneChing]

That deserves a hand. Maybe a thousand hands. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_czV1khONQ)

Perhaps Kwan Yin will smile upon poor Hengxin's fate.

[Royal Dragon]

I fail to see how you could possibly rebut the existence of actual people.

Reply]
I'm not fully sure you exist. Infact, I am sure you don't.



















See, wasn't that easy? :D

[Songshan]

You can't rebut the existence of actual people. There will always be some that will say the sky is purple when you know its blue. I hate to say it but it's human nature. I see it everyday.

It just blows my mind that so many have this animosity against Shaolin Temple and the modern day monks. I don't believe any organization or institution is godly perfect. Take the Catholic church by all means with all the priest scandals. We see "church" as being perfect but yet they have their share of negative publicity. It Doesn't mean all Catholic priests are perverts. We see Shaolin Temple as a religious perfect institution. Yet, for some of us we know it's not all perfect and by the latest tradegy creates a negative image of Shaolin. I think the latest tradegy is a bandwagon that some decided to jump in and use to support their claims.

[B-Rad]

The Shaolin Temple has a lot of different monks, all with different experiences.

A couple facts about the Shaolin Temple:
1. It's often been under government control of some sort.
2. It's hard to say that it's been a continuous unbroken lineage since its creation with the multiple times it's been burned to the ground.

While I probably wouldn't trust the abbot any further than I could throw him, and there are certainly some official monks I wouldn't agree with on much of anything, I don't see what makes this particular group of monks any less legitimate than before.


"Zhang Lipeng, who became a Shaolin disciple when he was five and had been following the disciplines until he moved to Europe in 1996 when he was 22, now believes that he was never a true monk.
"I am not a monk and I have never been one," he said. Mr Zhang said a real Shaolin monk had to know both kung fu and Buddhist scripts, but he only learned kung fu. "I was at most a bodyguard for the Shaolin temple," he said."
I think while this might be true for a number of the monks there, I don't think it's fair to use this as a blanket statement for the entire order. Some don't know anything about Buddihsm, some know scripture but don't take it seriously or might even try to twist it to justify their own behavior, while others are really serious about being the "ideal" Shaolin monk.

[B-Rad]

It just blows my mind that so many have this animosity against Shaolin Temple and the modern day monks. I don't believe any organization or institution is godly perfect. Take the Catholic church by all means with all the priest scandals. We see "church" as being perfect but yet they have their share of negative publicity. It Doesn't mean all Catholic priests are perverts. We see Shaolin Temple as a religious perfect institution. Yet, for some of us we know it's not all perfect and by the latest tradegy creates a negative image of Shaolin. I think the latest tradegy is a bandwagon that some decided to jump in and use to support their claims.
I think the real problem with Shaolin today (or at least with Shaolin supporters and detractors) is extremists. Too many people jumping on the bandwagon as you say, and also too many people on the other side wanting to ignore many of the legitimate complaints about the monks.

[GeneChing]

We ran an article in our 2004 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500)that introduced Hengshan as one of the new monks: Shi Hengshan & Shi Zihao of New York By Jonathan Oh. Here's the first half of that article, the part of that article that addresses Hengshan.


Due to the growing number of martial arts students and the goal of spreading Chan Buddhism, Venerable Shi Guolin of New York decided to invite a few more instructors from China. Two of the new monks are Shi Hengshan and Dharma Master Zihao.

Disciple: Shi Hengshan
Shi Hengshan came from a poor family, one of three sons, from Lingquan city in the Anhui province. At the age of 12, he was sent to the Shaolin Temple to learn martial arts. He worked as a wood-gatherer and fire-stoker in the kitchen in order to stay and train at the temple.

Venerable Shi Guolin went back to Songshan Shaolin Temple in 2000. Hengshan was learning from Shi Yanzhang. Shi Guolin was looking for a disciple, and Yanzhang introduced Hengshan to Guolin. At that time, Hengshan was a cook’s helper, stoking the fire for the woks in the kitchen. Yanzhang told Guolin that Hengshan was very honest and had a very pure mind and would make a good candidate for a disciple. Guolin asked him if he wanted to be a monk (chu jia ren) and his disciple. Hengshan didn’t know what a chu jia ren was, so Guolin told him that it consisted of devoting his body to Buddhism and passing down the theory, thoughts, knowledge, etc. - basically the whole essence of Buddhism. The difference between chu jia ren and inside disciple (zai jia ren) is zai jia ren can learn Buddhism during his or her lifetime but cannot necessarily pass it down to his next generations.

Guolin spent three years trying to get Hengshan into the country. He sent an application in 2001, but due to 9/11, it was not until 2003 that Hengshan was allowed to enter the country.


P.S. B-Rad, if you research Shaolin, you'll find that this is not a problem limited to 'today' In fact, for centuries, Shaolin has had detractors, wayward 'monks', tourist complaints and issues of inauthenticity. So the problem isn't today's extremists. The problem is that few people really know Shaolin's history. They make assumptions based on legends and movies. But that's not quite the way it was at all, so why would it be the way it is? Few consider the fact that monks are humans, replete with human strengths and weaknesses.

[kyklos]

wow



I started my first ever martial arts training at Guolin's place in flushing.

My first reactions were it seemed "authentic" and relatively welcoming if you don't know any chinese and only communicate with bows and such.

When i first started training there Hengshan was my only instructor. I actually "leveled up" with him per say. When i took the level 2 exam and made it he became the level 2 teacher. When i started learning staff form(the only weapon i learned and still my favorite) he was my teacher. I found him to be the brightest aspect of that place. He always had a smile on his face and was always willing to help me on the side. Correcting my stance or just saying really the only word he knew "faster, faster". He motivated everybody with his sheer energy and unspoken charisma. I will truly miss him.

The only other instructor that came close to having the same aura as Hengshan was the Sanda instructor who came much later from china.

Guolin was always very unaproachable and so was the Yi Jin Jing instructor who would take my money every three months (i can't rememeber his name for the life of me). I actually havent been practicing for almost 2 years now and was seriously considering going back mainly because i had the funds again. My poor staff is gathering dust and i've been aching to practice my forms again. But this all has thrown me. I admit i never really did the research before going the first time you could say i was blinded by the light.

Its very sad to learn about all these things that i truthfully had no clue about the temple's darker past and present. I'm glad i know about them but I don't want that to overshadow what this is really about. The world has lost a fine human being and he will truly be missed.

Peace be with you Shi Hengshan

[shaolinboxer]

It's sad, about this kid.

I was one of yan ming's students for about 2 years, around 97-99 I think....I was on the original "demo team" or whatever.

I think the conversation I had with a fellow ex-student of his, that I happened to run into on a train a couple years after his girlfriend made him ask me to leave sums it up: "after you left things got really f'ed up. the place is a messed up cult".

Fit in or get out should be the shaolin motto ;)! Really, it's all a bit of a cruel joke. Kids lessons for grown-ups and all.

But it is fun for a while.

The monks are "working" those who haven't figured them out yet. But they provide a sense of importance for those who chose to ignore the good people they fool and hurt. Like this kid who offed himself.

[forever3821]

there was a big expose in the sing tao newspaper last sunday that a high ranking ny flushing shaolin monk is married with 2 kids. i guess monks who stayed in america too long are becoming americanize with american cultures and values. i think the monk should make a public annoucement stating he is no longer a shaolin monk but enjoy teaching shaolin kung fu as a living. from what i know about monks in china, they do not marry and deicate his life to budda. i may be wrong but am i close to it? :confused: whats your opinon on this matter?:rolleyes:

[jason.]

I would like to read that article you speak of, do you have a link?

Thanks!

[Royal Dragon]

I thought certian types of monks could marry...like ministers here....right?

[GeneChing]

Yanming has two kids (well, four if you count the ones in China). This has been a sore point amongst the Shaolin order for some time since Shaolin monks are supposed to be celibate.

From what I had heard, the article implicated Guolin as having two kids and a house in Long Island, or something to that effect. I'm eager to see the article. It's notable that the esteemed institutions of Chinese journalism can lean towards the tabloid. It's worthy of note that Rong Xiaoqing's previous Sing Tao article (posted above) used an internet forum as a source. That's pretty sketchy to my way of thinking, but I'll refrain from judgment until I see the article.

[Songshan]

Well I know a few monks that own a house, drive a car, eat beef, and wear regular clothes! What's the issue? Because some fall in love and start a family or have girlfriends makes them evil? Un pure? Immoral? Is there anyone here that believes shaolin monks are 100% fully ordained religious monks?? I think a lot of these issues need to be put to bed. Comon guys.

[Iron Cross]

I dont think it makes them evil in anyway or un pure... just makes them.. well.. normal people like the rest of us... Theres also nothing wrong with that.. Its ok to be a normal guy.. though your school will probably suffer financially if you advertise "Regular joe Teachin Shaolin Kung Fu" as opposed to "Super Authentic Shaolin Monk straight from China Teaching Super Traditional, Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu"

[CFT]

A properly ordained Buddhist monk taking the the full Buddhist precepts (there might be slight variations between different traditions) should practice celibacy, not to take a life, not consume intoxicants, etc. That is what leaving behind the secular existence should be about.

The question is whether these monks are true Buddhist monks or not. Given their supposed behaviour then I would say not. If they can't follow the precepts then they should "return" to the world, cast aside their vows and no longer call themselves monks.

You can hardly call yourself a "chu jia ren" (person who leaves the family) if you are begetting children. You can still be a Buddhist, but not a monk.

[GeneChing]

We've been through this a ton of times, but it always bears repeating because a lot of people still don't get it. Shaolin has a special class of monk called wuseng (warrior monk). These are by strict definition, lay disciples, and are kept to preserve Shaolin's martial tradition. They don't take all the Buddhist monk vows, so are permitted to eat meat and drink alcohol but this is not encouraged by any means. However, they are supposed to be celibate. In my article, Shaolin Third Wave, in our 2007 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=687), I go over this in more detail, plus I discuss the new rising class of modern Shaolin monks, the biaoyanseng.

[CFT]

I was aware of the separate wuseng class of monks, but didn't think that there were any exemptions from the precepts. Just that they practiced martial arts on top of their studies of Buddhist scripture. The martial practice should be another way of achieving enlightenment, and not be an end in itself.

I thought lay disciples are "zujia"?

[Iron Cross]

Well, I know yan ming actually does encourage eating meat and drinking...

In terms of celibacy i think thats pretty much shot to pieces too... HOw many now call themselves warrior monks yet have girlfriends, wives or familes... or hell all of the above...

its been my experience that the wuseng, especially here in the states, dont play the role of a lay practitioner who is around to rpeserve the shaolin martial arts... But instead take on these roles of super ordained buddhist monks that hold the knowledge of the unbroken lineage of buddha himself... Though i find that funny myself as none of their backgrounds can even really be concretely verified... They can claim to be a disciple of anyone but can you actually prove they studied with them?

Seems like weserners have a misconception about what a shaolin wuseng is and instead of clearing up the confusion they eat it up aand use it as a means for fame and financial stability for their schools.. here in lies the hypocrisy and BS behind it all.. and I believe where alot of the problems derive...

[GeneChing]

Most westerners don't want complicated martial arts. We want what works. We want cardiokickboxing because it flattens abs and tightens butts. We want MMA because it works in a clinch and it's on TV. Most don't really want to know the 1500 years of history that Shaolin offers. We'd prefer the monks to be just like Kwai Chang Caine, or Jet Li in Shaolin Temple (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd40021.html). But if you really look at the history of Shaolin, the order has been riddled with controversy. Most of the legendary monks were far from saints. Of course, the tradition of Zen has a long cast of odd characters, but with Shaolin, it's somewhat the nature of the beast. Traditional Shaolin is controversial. There's plenty of rogue monks in Shaolin's history and legend. Now, I don't say this to defend their behavior at all. Instead, it's more the fault of westerners, who put monks up on a pedestal. We worship them as saints, then **** them as sinners when we find they are human. Here in America, I'd attribute a lot of it to the lack of monks in contemporary society. We don't have that many monks here. They aren't part of our daily experience. That gives them this air of mystery. But take someplace where there's plenty of religious ascetics like India or Thailand. The perception of monks is quite different, far less romantic.

[Iron Cross]

I dont know gene I think i disagree with pretty much everything you just said.. You seem to be applying the same twisted, circular logic these shaolin folk use all the time...

I dont think its the fault of the westerners that go to elarn from these guys when they all all told wonderfully colorful stories of the good natured enlightened masters they are now learning from... mostly from the monks themselves... How humble they are and knowledgable of all things in the world.. Then perhaps years down the road the students comes to learn his master he had held in such high regards turns out to be something of a total ****. Is it not the fault of the master for lying to the student for all this time and upholding this facade?

Let me see if I understand the logic being implied here.. I had studied with yan ming for 4 years and saw this crap constantly...

I am a bad man... I will tell people I am a good man.. therefore I am now a good man... If they think I am really a bad man they are wrong because I have already stated I am a good man... New students believe I am a good man because I have told them so... therefore I am a good man even if my previous students have come to think of me as a bad man...

And around and around we go.... where it stops nobody knows...

Look you can say we just dont understand what a true shaolin monk is because they are different from regular monks.. Though it does seem like a BS cop out to explain away or justify any action they make whether it be Lying, cheating stealing, murder, rape, corporate scandal, drug possesion, drug sale, genocide, regicide, or squeezing the toothpaste from the top of the tube instead of the bottom....

Again pulling into the twisted logic thing... I am a Monk therefore anything I do is a good action... I killed a man therefore killing is ok for monks to do...

If you jsut stop and think about it for a minute you can clear see "Monk" or not this guy is just a jerk and not the kind of person i would like to be associated with... Wheres the problem with that???

[ngokfei]

If you like the martial arts then I don't see the issue. (there are many Martial Arts teachers who BS their students but in the end your there to train. If you don't like what they have to teach then you can leave, if you haven't signed a contract:eek: )

Now as for the "Monk" status the only concern would be for individuals seeking a Buddhist Education or more to the point becoming a Buddhist Monk. Then here lies the problem with disception.

A lot of damage can be done by individuals claiming to be "ordained monks" and those who are just playing with the titles.

From what little I know:D shaolin has always been a querk of buddhist temples in China. Today their standing his held quite low in the eyes of many Buddhist Temples throughout the world.

There only real claim to fame is that
1. Batuo
2. Damo/bodhidharma
very little else.

hell think of all the flack that china is getting for self ordaining catholic bishops:eek:

[ngokfei]

back to shi hengshan.

So any news on his funeral.

Gene: Could you open up a charity collection for his family. Especially for funeral costs. Would like to donate to it.

[GeneChing]

IC: You totally misread me. I'm not saying that there aren't messed up monks. Quite the opposite. If you look at the role of the religious ascetic in societies that function with them, you'll find that they are not necessarily held with veneration. In fact, many slices of society look down on monks and such as freeloaders and charlatans. Chinese history and legend is riddled with negative monk role models. Just take a look at Jigong - he's a classic.

My point is that westerners need to get past the "wonderfully colorful stories of the good natured enlightened masters" and get into the next chamber of Shaolin. That one is full of entrepreneurial manipulators who are more than happy to take advantage off naive westerners. There are many chambers to Shaolin. Most westerners don't get past this second chamber.

nf: Shaolin has plenty of claims to fame beyond Batuo and Bodhidharma. The two most popular are the rescue of Li Shinmin and the repelling the Japanese pirates. But there are more. You got to remember what a significant area Shaolin was in historically. That's part of what given Shaolin so much 'color' - location, location, location.

As for a fund for Hengshan, you should contact STOH (I love it when people say 'you should do such and such' ;) )

[Iron Cross]

Gene I think you only further demonstrate what I was saying... At a certian point.. the second chamber lets say.. people realize shaolin isnt a magical happy land and its really, now, a business like anythign else.. Everyone at this point seems to realize that they tend be be corrupt and take advantage of people...

I guess my question is once you realize there is no gold at the end of the rainbow why do you continue looking for it???

[Shaolinlueb]

Gene I think you only further demonstrate what I was saying... At a certian point.. the second chamber lets say.. people realize shaolin isnt a magical happy land and its really, now, a business like anythign else.. Everyone at this point seems to realize that they tend be be corrupt and take advantage of people...

I guess my question is once you realize there is no gold at the end of the rainbow why do you continue looking for it???


because we all know that money grows on trees.

it seems the money that shaolin can make is in the few hands who can. anyone else is just trying to milk something that has been played a lot so far.

[ngokfei]

gene

What I meant was in terms of the spread of Buddhism NOT their involvement with politics, etc.

"As for a fund for Hengshan, you should contact STOH (I love it when people say 'you should do such and such' )"

hey all I said was "could you" because the magazine has and is involved with so many different fund raisers/charities (such as the Friends of Wushu, Birthday of the monk who recently passed away, etc)

[GeneChing]

IC: There are thirty-six chambers of Shaolin, if we carry out the metaphor. If you stop at chamber two, you never get to the good one, the one with the midget monk and the Buddha hand weapon. Seriously, Shaolin has plenty of flaws and the money issue is a big one. On the flip side, Shaolin is the only place in the world where martial arts can even begin to imagine money issues of that magnitude. Why? Some one stuck in the second chamber might say it's because it's all a big scam. They stop there. Game over. But anyone who's got past chamber two sees the other thirty-four.

It's just like the Milofo Buddha in front of every Chinese Buddhist temple. He's fat and happy. That's the same as your magical happy land. But what do you see next? The Buddhist guardians, Heng and Ha. Scary. And there's still another chamber before you get to the gold Buddha. But we're not in it for the gold buddha. We're in it for the final chamber - the practice hall. The metaphor is in the very architecture, but few westerners see it. Such is Buddhism in the west where Zen is a toilet cleaner and an mp3 player...:rolleyes:

So sure, there's a business aspect, but I wouldn't say it's "a business like anything else". Few businesses have 1500 years of history under their sash.

nf: In terms of the spread of Buddhism, there are other prominent masters that were associated with Shaolin such as Faru and Huian. It was considered one of the leading centers of Chan during the late seventh century. Batuo hosted other eminent Buddhists to preach at Shaolin such as Huiguang and Daoping. It was also a Buddhist translation center in the sixth century, hosting Ranamati and Bodhiruci. Shaolin was so famous for Buddhism that one of China's most prominent monks at the time, Xuanzang (the inspiration for Journey to the West) asked for a transfer there, but was denied by the emperor, who wished him to stay at Baimasi. You learn all this good Buddhist history stuff around chamber 7 or 8.

As for doing a fundraiser for Hengshan, it seems a bit superfluous. We don't know Hengshan's family at all. I never even met Hengshan personally. If we were to set up a fundraiser, the best we could do is to donate the funds to STOH. So it's really best if you just forward any donations directly to STOH. This way, you cut out the middle man.

[ngokfei]

gene

shaolin only recieves this attention is due to the fact that it has been designated the Imperial Temple for past dynasties and the recent gov't. If you do additional research you'll see that there are many other temples with as if not more impressive acts done for the spread of budhism. Perhaps Shaolin was a major figure in the past but not anymore. The mere mention of Shaolin as a buddhist center brings negative comments from many buddhist centers not only overseas but here in the US as well.

Sorry, thought the fundraising would be up your alley as you and the magazine seem to have been honored with the or just taken the lead in promoting the shaolin temple cause here in the US. But your probably playing it safe as it is not a pleasant or good PR for the shaolin cause at the moment.

STOH is in pretty bad light at the moment and so it wouldn't be appropriate for them to be involved with such matter. (hey I used to train there but guess things have changed in the past 7 years:( )

Perhaps you might be able to obtain information regarding his family so the funds (if any) could be sent directly to the family. (only a suggestion and understand the reluctance to get involved.)

peace
eric

[Iron Cross]

Gene I think you missed my point... I was being figurative when I said 2nd chamber.. I didnt literally mean there were 34 other chambers of BS to go through before you reach the true spirit of shaolin...

Guess my point is why even bother with the BS... there are so many other schools out there that are not only lack the BS politics and structuring but are also friendlier, more honest, and have better instruction both martial and mental...

[richard sloan]

Guess my point is why even bother with the BS... there are so many other schools out there that are not only lack the BS politics and structuring but are also friendlier, more honest, and have better instruction both martial and mental...

that's entirely subjective.

I've noticed many of the "detractors" now running about, before whatever melt down occurred, were usually the biggest gushers. You can practically predict whose going to get chewed up and spit out.

[Iron Cross]

that's entirely subjective.

I've noticed many of the "detractors" now running about, before whatever melt down occurred, were usually the biggest gushers. You can practically predict whose going to get chewed up and spit out.

Well than rich I look forward to reading your "Detractor" posts when you leave shaolin or are forced out... Now that should be an interesting read to say the least...

And if you just thought 'yeah right" or "That will enver happen" than your more naive thant I thought... Rememebr I thought the same when I was there..

[GeneChing]

nf: If I do additional research? Come on now. In the same post, you're asking me to find Hengshan's family for you. Maybe you could do some of your own research.

Sure, Shaolin has received a lot of attention. The Li Shinmin stele is a testament, and may well be the only reason Shaolin survived some of the Buddhist purges (including the big one from the latter part of Li Shinmin's own dynasty). Just because there has been government involvement, doesn't detract from its significance to Buddhism. Quite the opposite, if you think about it. The attention Shaolin receives, both historically and in the contemporary setting, makes it intrinsically of interest as a Buddhist institution. Now I've never said anything to imply that Shaolin is the most important Buddhist center in China. Neighboring Baimasi is more significant for many Buddhists (and thus a more common tourist destination). Your 'do additional research' comment would be stronger if you'd present some of your own, like some of those other significant temples in China, like Guanxiaosi, Nanhuasi, Yunmensi, Youminsi. But I'm sure from your research, you know what I'm talking about. ;)

In all fairness, and before this turns into more of a wacked-out flame war than it already is :rolleyes:, I do appreciate the intention behind the gesture of your donation suggestion and urge you to see it through. Of course, I also am saddened by Hengshan's suicide. And I'm a stalwart fundraiser - few people in the martial industry can claim working for as many charitable causes as I have. My charity predates my work for our magazine. However, the task of finding Hengshan's family and then raising funds is a little beyond me right now. I don't even know where to start. I never met Hengshan. My only connection to him is through STOH. So I earnestly hope that you are genuine in your mission and can find them and help them.

IC: BS happens. If you can find a place where there's no BS whatsoever, let me know. Shaolin's magnitude has made it open to a lot more BS. But the bigger the base of the pyramid, the higher the apex. The best fruit grows from the richest fertilizer.

Don't get me wrong. I'm never said that Shaolin was some paradise. Far from it. Sure, I'm a Shaolin disciple, but I took my Buddhist vows before that. And sure, we do an annual Shaolin special, but keep in mind, we just ran an article about the Abbot's plan for Shaolin Football (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=693) (and I don't mean Shaolin soccer) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=481). I'm painfully aware of Shaolin's dark side, more than you might even imagine. In all honesty, that's a huge part of the fascination for me.

[richard sloan]

Well than rich I look forward to reading your "Detractor" posts when you leave shaolin or are forced out... Now that should be an interesting read to say the least...

And if you just thought 'yeah right" or "That will enver happen" than your more naive thant I thought... Rememebr I thought the same when I was there..

classic.

Don't be such a cracked egg. Naive ain't too bad a card to play, but you have to make it stick. Didn't you just read where I said you could practically predict who would get spit out.

When you do something with yourself to make yourself worldly I'm sure you'll let us all know, stories about being abandoned to die and "forced" out of a school don't exactly cut it in my book.

In the remote chance I did get spit out, you would never hear about it.

[Iron Cross]

Actually im sure I would hear about it eventually....

The best way I can describe the whole shaolin thing... its like a abusive or dysfunctional relationship.... Your friend tell you to get out of it but you say "you just dont understand" People tell you its no good for you... you say 'But I love him/her"

While your in it it makes perfect sense in a wrapped kinda way because you force yourself to make it make sense... Like an addiction... Hard to imagine the world or your life without this person or in this case SHAOLIN *que choir music*

Yet when you finally get out or it ends you say to yourself what the hell was I thinking that whole time...

Talk to near anyone tha tleft and they will all say the same **** things... Your blind and mentally damaged if you wont admit there is some truth to that... Where there is smoke there is usually fire... If you guys want to continue sleeping in a burning building go right on ahead I'm personally glad I got the fudge out before the roof comes down killing all inside...

Peace yall

[richard sloan]

so you learned nothing.

[Iron Cross]

I think I learned more than you realize...

[GeneChing]

That's a very tricky subject, Iron Cross, and a point worth addressing. TCMA is based on the Confucian ideal of the teacher-student relationship. This, when taken to extremes (and TCMA training is quite extreme) can easily be interpreted by western observers as abusive. What's more, there's that guru-like worship of masters in the martial arts in general, which certainly fuels this argument. The teacher-student relationship is fundamentally unequal, so it's easy for it to become abusive. I wouldn't say that Shaolin is more abusive than other lineages. I've heard of suicides, sexual abuse and cult issues from many other lineages. Shaolin is bigger so there's more of it proportionally. Plus with the religious connection, it seems more reprehensible.

One thing that's for certain, Shaolin isn't for everyone. CMA isn't for everyone. MA is exclusive. If everyone could thrive there, I'd be a rich man. There is a weeding out process. Richard is right, people do get spit out. That's the way it has always been, and I'm tempted to say that's the way it should always be, but then again, if it wasn't, I could cash out. ;) But the essential nature of the martial arts is to see how tough you are - to see how much you can take - and to use that hardship as a staircase for progress. Many are called, few are chosen.

I should say that for the most part, I've had really positive experiences with Shaolin masters, but my perspective is bizarre, for sure. Most of the negative stuff is stuff that I've observed happening to others or were caused by people around the monks, like the Chicoms who run the wushuguan and such.

I'll also add that there's a traditional yogic discipline known as Guru yoga. It's akin to what I was saying before about Confucianism. It's a spiritual path that comes from following another. It's very hard for most westerners to wrap their mind around it (I have a lot of issues with guru yoga) especially because the guru does not necessarily have to be a better person than the follower.

[Iron Cross]

Man get over yourselves... LOL you shaolin guys crack me up now..

If you would look around you'd notice we all happen to be sitting in a completely western country... Doesnt get more western than this... This isnt some kung fu movie or any of that BS...

When i went to China I didnt expect all the chinese to change to suit my needs.. I adapted to the culture and society... Knew I was in a different place and read up on what was or was not allowed there... I didnt walk around talking smack about teh chinese communist party in a loud western voice while exclaiming I AM A WESTERNER YOU SIMPLE EASTERNERS CANT POSSIBLE GRASP THE DEPTH OF MY KNOWLEDGE... In fact while I was there I noticed how harsh students are treated by teachers or kids by their parents and simply said to myself well this is china thats how they roll here... Didnt get all up in their faces proclaiming human rights and dignity or that we are all created equal... That would be somewhat out of palce on my part... I simply respected their culture and positions..

In the west see there are these pesky things called laws and standards... though if there wernt imagine the fun we could have... You all really need to get your heads out of the movies youve stuck them in and realize THIS IS NOT CHINA!!! the sooner you realize that the better it will be for everyone...

p.s.

I can almost predict the response.... YOull say yes this is the west but you check that when you enter these schools and then its like your in china... Well thats such total nonsensical garbage I wont even respond to that..

[richard sloan]

no it's not china.

and nobody is saying it is, or should be. but french chefs don't come to america and rush to open burger joints. I don't know of a french restaurant famous for it's borscht.

what we're seeing is a hybridized formation- a mash up. some things are going to combine, stick, develop in new directions, and some things are going to get tossed, even brutally. some results are going to suck ass, others will be brilliant and on target.

it doesn't need to defend itself against perception, or "get over" itself. people can regurgitate their experiences all they want- some people are well justified- but most people are gutless *****claats tapping out their angst cuz a tshirt changed color when I wish they would just man up and deal with their sh1t face on and respect their choices and at least their word- but regardless of that, in my experience the good has always prevailed in this shaolin thing and 9 times out of 10 makes the bad look exactly like what it is, fairly well overblown.

changing a tshirt color becomes snorting coke off a baby's ass in 3 iterations.

"dysfunctional" indeed. well I never liked everyone in my family and I don't expect everyone in my family to like me. presently speaking I am pretty awed at how great the family functions. being ravaged by mosquitos balanced by amitabha nerds and babysnorts as it is.

[Iron Cross]

Actually Rich I remember you refering to it as China... Maybe not directly saying THIS IS CHINA... but you did say " Sure this is America but you kinda check that once you walk through that door"

You'll forgive me if I didnt get the quote word for word but you did say that or something rather similar... I still remember the conversation...

It doesnt need to defend itself? Are you seriously sick?? No thats a legit question I'm not being sarcastic... Really do you have a legit mental problem?? I would also suggest seeing a doctor if you havent done so already... Given everything already discussed in the thread... You forget this started as the unfortunate story of a shaolin "monk" hanging himself in the flushing temple... that by itself warrants defense... Tack on everything else negative about the palce and I would most certainly say it does warrant a defense...

You seem to be confusing me in the rest of your post... Like you got real angry and your brain stopped producing rational, logical thoughts... Where did t-shirt color come from? and snorting coke off a babys ass?? I mean lets keep personal hobbies out of this ok...

But your right about one thing... the good has always prevailed... Thats why we have Yong XIn as abbot.. de yang beaten and arrested many times.. wan heng arrested and booted at one point... lets see what else can you mention.... yes the good has always prevailed... But then again maybe this is all for the better... Maybe the chinese government knows something you dont and is doing the right thing... Guess we will never know..

[richard sloan]

actually I never forgot how this thread started.

It started about a person's tragedy, a suicide, and members of that community coming to grips with it and dealing with the aftermath of the event. then suddenly it mushroomed into quite a few other opportunities.

yes, I said something akin to that, keyword being "kinda," in that it is and it isn't. That should be an easy point, so I don't know why you are going on about how it's not China. Uh...GRANTED? But to deny it is a grey area that is even now being defined is to simply be obtuse. It's not China, but it is Shaolin being shaped and adapted, and it's not the first time nor the last.

and yes, the good always has prevailed, because DY got out and through it all he held it despite what happened, now he is spreading dharma as he sees fit to transmit it, wan heng came to austria, because these guys are invested with an understanding that it is all BIGGER than one person and they have intuitive principles and the backbone to exercise them. That's the thing some people never got, no bones.

I am sure DY could have kow towed but he did not, he never looked for a medal, or a clap on the back, he never cried oh woe is me woe is me, look what "shaolin" has done to me they are so dysfunctional and I am so abused- he discerned his path, manned up, and delivered. just like a couple of other hold outs we both know. If anyone could have rights to being all about the negativity couldn't MDY be the poster child of your movement. But instead, he inspires through his perserverence and in spite of. Some people would say it is heroic. My point is, that kind of heroism is more ubiquitous and prevalent than the "negative," matters on a level that deflates 95% of the negative, and interesting to me to note that when something like that does leak out, it never gets past 3 posts.

I'm not confusing you in my posts at all, but you do tend to read yourself in. It was actually a reference to a joke we once shared but I guess you forgot it.



Actually Rich I remember you refering to it as China... Maybe not directly saying THIS IS CHINA... but you did say " Sure this is America but you kinda check that once you walk through that door"

You'll forgive me if I didnt get the quote word for word but you did say that or something rather similar... I still remember the conversation...

It doesnt need to defend itself? Are you seriously sick?? No thats a legit question I'm not being sarcastic... Really do you have a legit mental problem?? I would also suggest seeing a doctor if you havent done so already... Given everything already discussed in the thread... You forget this started as the unfortunate story of a shaolin "monk" hanging himself in the flushing temple... that by itself warrants defense... Tack on everything else negative about the palce and I would most certainly say it does warrant a defense...

You seem to be confusing me in the rest of your post... Like you got real angry and your brain stopped producing rational, logical thoughts... Where did t-shirt color come from? and snorting coke off a babys ass?? I mean lets keep personal hobbies out of this ok...

But your right about one thing... the good has always prevailed... Thats why we have Yong XIn as abbot.. de yang beaten and arrested many times.. wan heng arrested and booted at one point... lets see what else can you mention.... yes the good has always prevailed... But then again maybe this is all for the better... Maybe the chinese government knows something you dont and is doing the right thing... Guess we will never know..

[Iron Cross]

You have a funny definition of what is considered a good thing... Though I can see why based on where you come from...

I would say a "good thing" would be if the stuff mentioned before hand never happened t shaolin in the first place.. To see it all and then say 'well thats a good thing too' is twisted logic.. Remind me of the born again christians I used to talk to that swore fossils didnt exist... Or when you point out mass genocide in the bible they say thats good too....

You've said something real interesting in your last few posts... Shaolin changes and adapts... You know it did that in China and they called it modern wushu... Yet the traditional shaolin community tends to frown on its establishment and how its replacing the traditional shaolin ciriculum... I believe yourself included.... If you truly embraced the philosophy of 'shaolin changes and adapts' you would be all for the new material and new methods of how to structure it and teache it... So I think we strike at another point here... In that its not the other stuff thats a problem but the power structure within shaolin itself... Most modern martial arts have done away with the structured traditional setups... There is still teachers and students but the relationship is not as serious as in years past... Students can come and go as they please, train at different spots without worry, ask questions, come late, drink water if they need it... you know little things like that...

Seems to me while these things are completely insignificant to any normal rational person, to a man in a position of power it is a great threat... It undermines the position he has set himself in... No longer do student bow to the wishes of a master who guides their lives... now he bows to the wishes of paying clients...

I find it funny how many discussions, whatever their topic, can be boiled down to someone in a position of power and being afraid to lose it... But hey thats human nature I guess... Sure things change... they change and then change again... everyone knows this... or should say "knows" this.. but many dont want to believe it or dont want it to happen.. change can be a frightening thing.

Its not China... I dont think alot of you actually do realize that... You say yeah granted but do you seriously know that... Can you say the same for alot of others in the shaolin scene???

Out of curiousity who are you to say whether or not your confusing me.... We're talking about shaolin politics and structure and here you come with tshirt color and baby coke a$$... whats that?

Love the part about the backbones to use their principles... As I remember it all my so called "brothers" and "sisters' id their heads in the sand when i needed help.. even yan ming told me to my face to leave and deal with it on my own... guess he was too busy to care...

My movement?? what the fudge?? I think your confusing me with someone that cares... Man you are paranoid... take a deep breath a a bath with some epsom salts... it will calm you down and help you relax... Seriously i jsut did that and I feel goooood....

[Songshan]

Iron Cross, I just read the last two pages of this thread that you posted in and realized that you appear to "attack all things shaolin and on a quest to burn the temples down and crucify all monks and their disciples" even though you said you were not trying to do that. I do believe in your eyes that your "experience" and me posting some comments about it a few months down the road was like "beating a dead horse"? Comon man, It was my understanding that you walked away from shaolin and were done with it....but yet I find you trolling around the Shaolin forums....for what reason? I know they say misery enjoys company but I am still baffled as to why some of you can't seem to move on with your martial training if you didn't like the modern shaolin? :confused:

As for the "Shaolin Monk debate" let me ask this question. Did you seek out a shaolin monk school to learn kung fu or become a monk? If you chose become a monk then I say you chose the school for the wrong reason....and I dont believe any of the monks here in the USA would say they are recruiting monks. There is nothing wrong with becoming a laymen or disciple but really the emphasis is on kung fu not becoming an ordained monk. A lot of you are stuck on the mysticism of shaolin and not the meat and potatoes of it.

[Iron Cross]

Hey you got me figured wrong.... This is purly for amusement purposes... if I cared as mucha s you think i do I would do something more productive about it than post on a few internet forums... ie. go to the papers, talk shows, hire a sky writer...

But yeah.... I started post on this thread before i mentioned the beating of dead horses... the issue was continued so i kept saying what i thought...

Seems to me like you guys want so desperatly to believe i am on a quest to destroy all things shaolin.. when in reality i just dont care and am posting things here out of pure amusement like i mentioned before... that and its fun to see rich get all worked up...

Im not exactly sure why you want to believe i am on a mission to destroy shaolina dn have all the monks killed... Idn maybe it makes your position feel that much more special... now there is the personification of all those that talk bad about shaolin in me...

Why do you guys spend so much time worrying about what i am or am not feeling?? dont you have anything better to do?? Actually thats probably a dumb question i mean look where we are all posting HA!

[Iron Cross]

Oh yeah one more thing... I'm getting real tired of hearing the same **** response from everyone... stop being stuck on the mysticism of shaolin and get to the meat and potatos... you need to get past the layers of BS to see the true nature of it... blah blah blah blah blah

Im willing to bet no one here even knows what shaolin is... Im serious I think if it came down to it and you had to define it in a clear manner it wouldnt work.. or everyones answer would be so drastically different they would have no meaning in the greater context...

Seems like all the response i get when people ask what shaolin is or criticize shaolin are the same.. People answer with a non answer thats kinda insulting in the first place...

What is shaolin? You just dont understand what shaolin is...

I disagree with a,b,and c in shaolin... Thats cause you just dont understand..

Dont think there is ever a clearly defined answer or retort that any lay person reading this could understand...

Makes me remember when i was still training at shaolin... Friends would ask what shaolin was and id give some esoteric answer and they would look at me all confused.. if they asked questions i would usually just say its hard to explain or you just dont understand... I used to think that made sense and they just didnt understand... though now ive come to realize i just wasnt explaining it clearly at all and really had no idea myself but hid this lack of knowledge with circular reasoning and loaded language...

What is shaolin? Shaolin is life, its love understanding and peace...

Great I can say the same about anything...

What is strawberry shortcake? Strawberry short cake is life. Its love understanding and peace..

[Songshan]

Hey you got me figured wrong....
Why do you guys spend so much time worrying about what i am or am not feeling?? dont you have anything better to do?? Actually thats probably a dumb question i mean look where we are all posting HA!

Well don't you have anything else better to do too, lol??!! We get tired of hearing the same stuff from guys like you too. It's a two way street. If you wonder why some of us think the way we do just go back and re read your posts. What kind of message are you sending out?


Im not exactly sure why you want to believe i am on a mission to destroy shaolina dn have all the monks killed... Idn maybe it makes your position feel that much more special... now there is the personification of all those that talk bad about shaolin in me...

Again look at what your posting...nothing positive and again based on a one time experience you had.


Oh yeah one more thing... I'm getting real tired of hearing the same **** response from everyone... stop being stuck on the mysticism of shaolin and get to the meat and potatos... you need to get past the layers of BS to see the true nature of it... blah blah blah blah blah

Im willing to bet no one here even knows what shaolin is... Im serious I think if it came down to it and you had to define it in a clear manner it wouldnt work.. or everyones answer would be so drastically different they would have no meaning in the greater context...

Seems like all the response i get when people ask what shaolin is or criticize shaolin are the same.. People answer with a non answer thats kinda insulting in the first place...

What is shaolin? You just dont understand what shaolin is...

It appears that you were stuck in the mysticism too and never made it out of it. All you seek to do is destroy the image of shaolin by words. The image you are trying to destroy is the "mysticisim" that Gene was referring to in his previous posts. In reality most of us are beyond that now....except for you.

In reality you will never find and answer to this question (what is Shaolin) because people get out of it what they put into it. Shaolin has different meanings for everyone be it for kung fu, health, buddhism, etc. So yeah no one really knows the answer except for the individual who is training Shaolin.

[Iron Cross]

In reality you will never find and answer to this question (what is Shaolin) because people get out of it what they put into it. Shaolin has different meanings for everyone be it for kung fu, health, buddhism, etc. So yeah no one really knows the answer except for the individual who is training Shaolin.

I expected to hear this much.. kinda aweak ass cop out if you ask me... You get out of it what you put into it.. Thats true for anything and everything you do in life... you cant use that to define something... it makes it by nature non existant...

I could say the same about cooking dinner, driving my car, working, sleeping, taking a bath or anything else i can think up of right now...

but again you got me figured wrong here... My opinions are not based on a one time event single isolated incident there are many reasons... but then ive already mentioned them earlier...

Also... I was past the mysticism of shaolin years ago... If I were here trying to debunk that Id be talking about Qi powers and the iron body tricks they use or the meditatioins for 10 days to heal wounds while crossing the yang tze on a reed so i can go meditate in a cave for 9 years and learn the secrets of the universe to defeat the droid armies of the trade federation...

The answers you always give are so similar to that of those in abusive relationships its almost frightening... You dont understand cause your not in it... its different for us still in it... and so on and so forth...

I was watching a show once and admitted abusers said similar things if heard you guys justify ... Its her fault for setting me off... or its her fault for pushing my buttons... does any of this sound familiar yet... if not you need to take an angle grinder to your head to reduce the thickness of your skull....

[Lamassu]

"Young forest" or "small forest." A method of kung fu based on eight postures and five animal forms: dragon, snake, tiger, crane and leopard.

www.yorkkarate.com/Terminology/s.htm

The Shaolin temples are a group of Chinese Buddhist monasteries famed for their long association with Chán (Japanese Zen) Buddhism and martial arts. They are perhaps the Buddhist monasteries most familiar in the West. The name "Shaolin" means "Young Forest".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin

That should be a clear enough definition for you. :)

[Iron Cross]

Not really you only defined the actualy word shaolin... maybe you got overly literal... But still its the best thing ive seen here so far... ha!!

how about a clear definition of the philosophies or traditions...

[Lamassu]

I'm not a Buddhist. I've never visited any of the Shaolin temples. All I know is that from my school, that claims to teach Shaolin kung fu, the curriculum includes forms and techniques based on animal movements. Other than that, I couldn't really tell you. I have my own system of beliefs, but those run independently from my kung fu training. The school I learn from, Shaolin Do, incorporates a Japanese word, Japanese gi and belt ranking system. There is no religious or philosophical content included in my training, and the history is questionable at best. So what? For me, the techniqes and forms taught are effective and practical, though not nearly as pretty as modern wushu, and I feel confident enough not to worry about getting my ass kicked everytime some jerk glares at me. As for what a Buddhist monk should or shouldn't be doing is irrelevant unless you're not only a buddhist, but a buddhist learning from the one in question. I was raised a Roman Catholic when I was young, and Catholic priests are to remain celibate, but there are other factions of Christianity where their "holy men" are married and have kids. Whose right; whose wrong? Who cares? I'm a westerner who, when pays for instruction in martial arts, is concerned with the quality of the material taught to me and the "history" and "tradition" are nothing more than garnishments as far as I'm concerned.

[Iron Cross]

Shaolin do eh.... wow.. ok... umm yeah no comment there on that one...

[Lamassu]

Whatever :rolleyes: I stopped caring about what other people think about the kung fu I study. Lucky for me I didn't join the kwoon for the approval of others.

[Royal Dragon]

Hee, hee, hee Shaolin Do thinks it's Shaolin!! LOL!!! :D

[Lamassu]

I must say, the humility of "true" shaolin students is amazing. :rolleyes: I wonder if arrogance is on the curriculum of these new temples. LOL :D

[Songshan]

I expected to hear this much.. kinda aweak ass cop out if you ask me... You get out of it what you put into it.. Thats true for anything and everything you do in life... you cant use that to define something... it makes it by nature non existant...

I could say the same about cooking dinner, driving my car, working, sleeping, taking a bath or anything else i can think up of right now...

but again you got me figured wrong here... My opinions are not based on a one time event single isolated incident there are many reasons... but then ive already mentioned them earlier.......

Iron Cross, you have mentioned nothing other than what you plastered at russbo. Even when I posted a comment(s) about your ordeal you seemingly wanted to end the discussion by saying it was "beating a dead horse". Perhaps the only beating of a dead horse here is what you say over and over again. Think it's time just to move on.


The answers you always give are so similar to that of those in abusive relationships its almost frightening... You dont understand cause your not in it... its different for us still in it... and so on and so forth...

I was watching a show once and admitted abusers said similar things if heard you guys justify ... Its her fault for setting me off... or its her fault for pushing my buttons... does any of this sound familiar yet... if not you need to take an angle grinder to your head to reduce the thickness of your skull

Now we are classified in the abusive category??!! ROFL!! I was never trying to "recruit" you back to Shaolin or change your views otherwise. You were in it got out of it and didn't like it for whatever your reasons. It was clear you posted about one reason (out of many) but it seems you can't just let if go and move on.

[Songshan]

I must say, the humility of "true" shaolin students is amazing. :rolleyes: I wonder if arrogance is on the curriculum of these new temples. LOL :D


They are "ex" shaolin students.....and I am sure there is a reason.

[Iron Cross]

Dude your like a broken record.. You keep saying the same thing that I cant let it go and move on... However, Ive already let it o and moved on... I already mentioned several times in fact that I only post on these sites for pure amusement purposes... I dont take any of this crap seriously... If you do you got bigger issues than training at shaolin... OHHHH SNAP!!!

This is why ive said many times ... Get over yourselves.... your not that important... ha

[GeneChing]

To get back OT, I heard there was another article concerning the fallout of Hengshan in Sing Tao on Saturday. Anyone see it?

[jason.]

No I haven't seen the article yet. Have you had a chance to read it? Any new news?

[GeneChing]

And I've only heard of it third hand, so it might be totally incorrect. But what I heard was that because of the controversy surround STOH, one of the supporters has requested that his donation be refunded. I don't suppose that was ngokfei, was it? Ok, bad joke. Really, really bad considering the context. Anyway, if anyone comes across the article, do post it here.

The more I find out about this situation, the more tangled it gets. There's so much back story involving people surrounding STOH. But it's all rumor and gossip, so I don't feel at all comfortable sharing it on a public forum. I'm still very interested to know more about Yanzhang.

[David Jamieson]

When one hangs them self, it is no ones' doing but their own.

If Shaolin is Ch'an, then people must realize this.

Casting blame for suicide is as senseless as the act itself.

[mantis7]

David Jamieson,

I do not desire to get into any discussion about the politics and nonsense involved in this but I suggest you do a little research about the suicide of nature.


When one hangs them self, it is no ones' doing but their own

You are correct in your observation that the person who is hanging themself is part of the act of suicide but remember there is a cause that lead to an effect. There is usually some form of extreme stress that induces this type of action.


If Shaolin is Ch'an, then people must realize this.
Casting blame for suicide is as senseless as the act itself.

Religious ideology or philosophical BS does not lessen the culpability of anyone who pushed this person to take their life. As far as casting blame being senseless, a comment like that is just misguided, ill informed and has no basis to stand on.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Hengshan was very ill and Guolin wouldn't let him go to the doctor. A woman who donated money to STOH offered to give him medicaid or something like that, but Guolin refused to let Hengshan to take the offer because it might bring many problems. After a while, Guolin was going to send Hengshan back to China for medical treatment, but Hengshan didn't want to go back. Why? I didn't ask, so I don't know. When Hengshan was dropped off at the airport, he ran back to a place near Flushing. He was going to make his first suicide attempt. He called the teachers and performer and said that he was going to commit suicide soon, but the teachers and performer looked everywhere for him around the payphones since Hengshan didn't use a cellphone and just used a payphone. They finally found him and brought him back to the school. After a while, on November 25, 2007, he hanged himself and was found dead. That was his second suicide attempt, nobody was able to save him.

wow it been a year almost??....time does go by fast
RIP

ok onto the main point, im sure this is a typo but just wanted to confirm. in that pargraph..you said november 25, 2007.....that would be in the future..u meant 2006 right??

and this story sounds familiar...im pretty sure the houston shaolin folks know what im talking about.....but there was no suicide attempts.....or none that i know of.....

wonder how are the shaolin people holding up on california..they got over 40 of them??

[David Jamieson]

David Jamieson,

I do not desire to get into any discussion about the politics and nonsense involved in this but I suggest you do a little research about the suicide of nature.



You are correct in your observation that the person who is hanging themself is part of the act of suicide but remember there is a cause that lead to an effect. There is usually some form of extreme stress that induces this type of action.



Religious ideology or philosophical BS does not lessen the culpability of anyone who pushed this person to take their life. As far as casting blame being senseless, a comment like that is just misguided, ill informed and has no basis to stand on.

How does one get pushed to kill them self if that potential is not already present? Cause and effect are not entirely removed from each other.

It is very important in my perspective that any individual takes 100% responsibility for their own actions. Casting blame on another in the case of a suicide is a perpetuation of not taking responsibility for ones actions.

As for the moral view or ethical, it is that view upon which anyone would base any sort of protest and has more to do with it than what you indicate with your dismissal of same.

He put the noose around his own neck and in his apathy let himself die for no good reason other than his own self sorrow.

It is sad, but many people are sad. Putting the burden of guilt on another is absolutely wrong and takes away from the real pain and who caused it.

What of the people he left to deal with it all? His family? What do they think? where is their say? Why did he not reach out? Surely he wasn't stupid?

i'm not defending Guolin, I don't know him, nor do I really care much about USA shaolin much or what they are about. What I do know is that suicide is suicide and it is carried out by an individual.

If we all let life's up's and downs drive us to suicide, I think the world would be a bit empty of humans.

[Royal Dragon]

David Jamieson,
You are 100% right. If I committed Suicide every time I had someone treated me bad, I would have been dead many times by now. Heck, my years in the Body shops would have accounted for five or six suicides alone.

It sounds like he had options, as well as people willing to help him out of his troubles. He chose not to accept their offerers, and instead took the coward's way out.

It is very sad, and such an utter waste of a shining bright light that this world has too few of, but reality is still reality even if we don't like it, or it gives us a bad taste in our mouths.

[doug maverick]

lets not forget that the guy was a little mentally disturbed at the time.

[Immortal_Dragon]

When one hangs them self, it is no ones' doing but their own.

If Shaolin is Ch'an, then people must realize this.

Casting blame for suicide is as senseless as the act itself.

Very well said.


You are correct in your observation that the person who is hanging themself is part of the act of suicide but remember there is a cause that lead to an effect. There is usually some form of extreme stress that induces this type of action.

Religious ideology or philosophical BS does not lessen the culpability of anyone who pushed this person to take their life. As far as casting blame being senseless, a comment like that is just misguided, ill informed and has no basis to stand on.

While I agree that some form of extreme stress induces suicide, however, usually the person who commits the act is often in a state of depression or suffering from some type of mental illness to begin with. We probably could even sit here and debate all day long were there other options Hengshan could have taken and why he didn't pursue it? We all have stress in life...I have known a few friends that have had some extreme cases of stress but never had thought of suicide. Regardless, the whole incident in itself is a tragedy. I just don't understand why there is such a need to blame someone when something like this happens....but usually there is some "sacraficial lamb" something like this gets pinned on.

[Immortal_Dragon]

How was I able to find out so much? I am a student at STOH. I've a student since the summer of 2004. I became close to the teachers and performer, so I asked for their side of the story.

These four people weren't the only ones who left STOH. There were two others who left also, and it was probably for the same reason. There were a total of six people (including Hengshan Shifu) who left. For six people to leave STOH, there must be some problem there. It must be pretty bad, and that problem is Guolin.
Many people disagree because they think that Guolin is a very generous and kind man. I think that was years ago. What about now? People can change. Also, Shaolin is becoming more for show now. It's all about the performance and money. Guolin got two new teachers to teach Wushu. Notice how the place is called Shaolin Temple Overseas Headquarters, and how he got Wushu people to teach Wushu and not Shaolin? I have seen many changes at STOH, and I can't say that these are good changes. They're really bad.

I'm sorry if this is all confusing and unorganized to you. There's just so much that I found out and wanted to say. I hope you all understand what this man is doing. It's to show that not everyone is who you really think they are. People change.

As for me, I'm going to the new school that the two teachers and performer started. It seems like a nice place, and they teach Shaolin! So why not?

People change. A few years ago, I would have never believed you. Today, I really don't hold people in such a high regard anymore. There are things some people do that just really don't suprise me much anymore.....even if they were considered to be held in a higher regard than the average person. Just watch the news. Congressmen, actors, teachers, police officers and other people who are held in high regards in high positions are often plastered in the media doing something stupid or breaking the law. Usually in time, people's true colors come out.

Looking back over the years, I was living in a shaolin fantasy. Then the flood gates opened and you start seeing the true nature of some things. Yes shaolin is more performance/show oriented now. Money plays an important role in just about everything you do now a days. Money is also considered the root of all evil as well. I would say that you were starting to wake up until I read your last sentence. Everything is going to be alright now, that another shaolin school is open teaching shaolin, right? I am sure there will be plenty of "my sausage is bigger than your sausage" (you figure out the human anatomy part) animosity between the schools, etc. Just be wary, you are going by the words of two teachers and a performer you "befriended". Who really knows what happened and yeah it has been over a year. Some things need to be laid to rest.

[GeneChing]

We'll be watching this case.

Friday, August 07, 2009Last Update: 6:08 AM PT
Temple Allegedly Drove Man to Suicide (http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/08/07/Temple_Allegedly_Drove_Man_to_Suicide.htm)
By ADAM KLASFELD

QUEENS, N.Y. (CN) - A Shaolin Temple in Flushing imprisoned, beat and starved a martial arts instructor from China and refused to pay him for nearly 5 years - until he killed himself - his survivor says.
The Temple arranged for Ji Mei Wang to emigrate to from China in 2001-02, according to the complaint in Queens Supreme Court. The Department of Labor was told that Wang would teach children to "learn discipline, develop coordination and enhance their flexibility and strength."
The visa application claimed that Ji would be paid $25,000 a year, says his survivor Yan Zhang Shi. Yan says the temple paid Ji nothing for the 4 years and 30 weeks he worked for it, and was imprisoned by it. Yan says it owes Ji's estate $114,000.
Yan says the Shaolin Temple "secreted" his passport, leaving him "imprisoned in the Temple" and "under their control." And Yan says the abuse he suffered included beating and starvation, which drove him "to the point where (he) believed he had no effective escape from his abuser except through suicide."
He was found dead on Nov. 24, 2006. He died intestate.
Yan seeks his Ji's wages and $2 million in punitive damages for breach of contract, conversion and unjust enrichment. Yan is represented by George Clarke with Dai & Associates.

[mengfei]

I know this is old topic but have looked online about it and all I find is the story from then. Anyone know about settlement and what happened to the back story of anything happen about abbot about this suicide and other problems at the temple?

[ngokfei]

Haven't heard anything, it was probably dropped etc. etc. Alot of the shaolin group get some sort of preference from the US Gov't. You can tell that by how easy it is for them to get Resident Visas so easily.

Most are not even "real" monks in the traditional terms. Sure they got names, resided at the temple but the majority are in it for the money etc.

Just look at the recent article in the magazine on Discipleship. I've known many individuals who have become ordained Buddhists and I've never heard of any of them having to give a "Hung Bao/Lai Sai - Money" to their Teacher. This is just a commercial aspect that has been added. Also along the same lines as the receiving of a Shaolin Chan Disciple Name. Unless your a monk in residence I have never heard of individuals receiving such a Lineage name, but yet again its modern times.

They'll eventually run out of Generation Names, LOL.


I trained under Sifu's Guo Lin, Heng Shin and a Lay disicple. Great training but that was back in the late 90's - a much different environment then.

[taichi4eva]

Some time ago, David said that Buddhist monks in Vietnam had a history of self-immoliation to protest French and American in the country.

This was not the case. They burnt themselves to protest the native government's anti- Buddhist stance. The former president was Catholic, and since he represented the minority, he had to suppress the Buddhist majority in order to stay in power.

I know it does not pertain to the monk's suicide, but I just wanted to write that.

[mengfei]

Thanks for reply ngokfei. I do not like to think this has been swept away but seems it has. Shi Hengshan was someones friend,had parents, had dreams and life. All gone. I know this happens all over world many times in a day but this one I think about too much. I remember reading this when it happen and I never forget.