stupid Mantis question

[One Armed Boxer]

Hi there

I'm a n00b in the world of Chinese martial arts - is Northern Praying Mantis an efficient 'Martial' art?

obviously it depends on what techer you have and how you practise it - what I'm asking is this a good style to use 'in the real world'

[LynyrdSkynyrd]

If you have the right teacher and you work hard. Of course you must learn how to apply what you learn.

[Yao Sing]

Cool, a question about Stupid Mantis. This is a very rare mantis style that's found mostly in the western countries. It's characterized by moves so obscure that nobody understands the yong fa.

Most of the demos you see of Stupid Mantis are either 2-man sets that only work if both parties know the choreography or applications against partners that stand there waiting to have the moves applied to them.

If you have any other Stupid Mantis questions just ask and I'll do my best to answer them.

:D :D :D

[One Armed Boxer]

that stupid Mantis!

nothing between the ears LOL

I'm sure it all depends on the teacher (I've had one excellent instructor and one poor in the past and the difference was ridiculous)

I'm planning on moving to Beijing In Juary so I want to start training in a northern style i can continue in China

[YouKnowWho]

PM is the most effective "striking" art on this planet.

[mantisG35]

northern PM styles are very effective and unique. The style is supported by theories and principles that reflect the deep understanding of energy and the need to fight will sparing the least amount of energy possible and using your opponent's energy against him/her.
The style is unique in a sense that the fighting applications were created first and then sequences were formed later. if you compare training mantis vs. any other art/style you will see that all other styles build your forms first to teach you the techniques whereas mantis teaches you the technique by making you practice the application on a human multiple times over and over and over through exercises like chi sau that start when you're still a beginner. In mantis you are most likely to learn your forms later down the line after you have learned all the techniques, their applications, and their combinations. you will learn the forms after learning all techniques and right before u get ur black belt.
my 2 cents

[One Armed Boxer]

Thanks for the serious responses

I'm going to take my first lesson tomorrow night

re: Belts - I didn't think Chinese Martial arts used a belt system?

[mantisG35]

a lot of schools have adopted different ranking systems. but the idea is your belt does not mean anything, well kind of. the belts are just for you to feel the progress you are making. My school does have a belt system, but they tell you your belt's only job is to hold your pants up!:eek:

[One Armed Boxer]

belts are a cool way of keeping track, it's the costs for grading belts etc i'm not keen on ;)

can't wait ti try this stuff out tomorrow :D

[Yao Sing]

The style is unique in a sense that the fighting applications were created first and then sequences were formed later. if you compare training mantis vs. any other art/style you will see that all other styles build your forms first to teach you the techniques whereas mantis teaches you the technique by making you practice the application on a human multiple times over and over and over through exercises like chi sau that start when you're still a beginner. In mantis you are most likely to learn your forms later down the line after you have learned all the techniques, their applications, and their combinations. you will learn the forms after learning all techniques and right before u get ur black belt.
my 2 cents

Can't say that I agree with this comment. Almost all styles started with techniques first and forms were added later. I don't see how you can make a claim like this.

All the schools I've attended, both Karate and Kung Fu, taught the moves first before teaching the forms. Also, I have yet to see a Mantis school that teaches ALL the techniques before beginning forms training.

The typical scenerio is this - learn the moves that comprise the form individually or in drills, then learn the form along side continual drilling. Once you have that down (not mastered) you learn the next series of techniques, drills and associated form.

I trained at a school that focuses a lot on forms and even there we learned and drilled the moves first because learning the form.

Another thing I think the majority of Mantis schools do not have a black belt rank or any other belt ranks. It is a trend that's showing up in more CMA schools but I believe it's rare in Mantis.

I can understand your zeal in promoting Mantis but please keep it realistic.

[jigahus]

This is how we break down at the place I study. We learn each technique and drill that. Then learn drills. I think you start learning forms after 6-8 month-ish, but that's with the simple forms...I would name some but I was never able to catch the names in some of the more advanced classes...either I would show up early/later. We have sashes to rank progress.

Have a happy day.

[mantisG35]

Can't say that I agree with this comment. Almost all styles started with techniques first and forms were added later. I don't see how you can make a claim like this.

All the schools I've attended, both Karate and Kung Fu, taught the moves first before teaching the forms. Also, I have yet to see a Mantis school that teaches ALL the techniques before beginning forms training.

The typical scenerio is this - learn the moves that comprise the form individually or in drills, then learn the form along side continual drilling. Once you have that down (not mastered) you learn the next series of techniques, drills and associated form.

I trained at a school that focuses a lot on forms and even there we learned and drilled the moves first because learning the form.

Another thing I think the majority of Mantis schools do not have a black belt rank or any other belt ranks. It is a trend that's showing up in more CMA schools but I believe it's rare in Mantis.

I can understand your zeal in promoting Mantis but please keep it realistic.
well in karate you start learning kata (sequences) when ur in ur second belt if not the first. in mantis you only get to see the forms when youre right before black belt after already having learned the application of all techniques.
in other arts you get the techniques from the form or kata. in mantis you get the kata by putting together the techniques. it's a completely different learning process.

[mantis108]

The Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu as we know it in General today is IMHO a result of "Nan Fa Bei Hua" (Southern method Northern propagation). Practically most if not all Kung Fu (not equivalent of Wushu) derived from southern method systems (ie Fanziquan) developed along the Yangzi River regions (ie Zhejiang, Jiangzu, etc) since Song dynasty (960-1279 CE).

Believe it or not, Karate, particularly Goju Ryu used this Southern Method blue print.

The Southern method has some distinct features.

1) it is largely hand to hand combat in nature.

2) it is highly adaptable to infantry and militia training.

3) spirituality is emphasized which uses form as an importanting training interface.

Bottom line - discipline is everything.

Northern Praying Mantis, Greater Meihwa Line in particular, has a connection with the south. It is not far fatch to see the southern method northern propagation in Mantis IMHO.

Mantis108

[Yao Sing]

well in karate you start learning kata (sequences) when ur in ur second belt if not the first. in mantis you only get to see the forms when youre right before black belt after already having learned the application of all techniques.
in other arts you get the techniques from the form or kata. in mantis you get the kata by putting together the techniques. it's a completely different learning process.

Again I have to disagree. That may be the case for your particular school but it is not consistant across the general Mantis population. You really can't use your school as an example of what everyone else does.

In Karate you learn to punch, block and kick well before you learn any kata. In Kenpo the forms are a compilation of the techniques. They are taught by calling out the techniques (technique bieng a sequence kicks/strikes/blocks like Crashing Eagle or Cutting the Pagoda).

Look at the curriculum of any Mantis school and you will see forms at every level starting from the very beginning. Like I said, your school might be different but the rest of the Mantis community doesn't wait until black belt/sash level before teaching any forms.

One of the early forms you learn at most Mantis schools is Beng Bu. This form is taught well before black belt/sash level.

[YouKnowWho]

The style is unique in a sense that the fighting applications were created first and then sequences were formed later.
Agree with you 100% there. That's why most people cross train PM. Sometime people even use PM as reference in order to fully understanding their original style. The forms designed in most of the CMA style are not heavy enough on combo. Only PM that always come with 3, 5, even 7 combos. PM is the system that bring you right into "combat" no matter you like it or not.

[Yao Sing]

????? How do you see that as unique to Mantis? Pretty much EVERY style started out with techniques and appplications before any forms were ever put together. Forms are a fairly recent addition. You seem to be way off on your history and understanding of MA in general.

How many CMA styles have you studied that you make the claim that only Mantis has multi-strike combos? Can you name at least one style that originated with forms? How about naming one style that even teaches forms before individual techniques and application?

BTW, most cross-training seems to be more like Boxing, Muy Thai, Wrestling, BJJ. You know, the typical MMA approach. I haven't heard of a whole lot of Mantis being added in to cross training.

You're giving this new guy some seriously flawed information. I can understand a bias towards Mantis but what you guys are claiming is way out there.

[YouKnowWho]

What's the move after

- Yang Taiji "brush knee twist step"?
- XingYi Pao Chuan?
- Baiji upper lifting groin striking?
- WC spear finger?
- Kung Li double chest punches?
- Karate downward block and back reverse punch?
- TKD spin back kick?

What if your opponent gets out of your way or deflects your attack and counter you back?

Not every style has combo like PM does. The PM combo design force people to think their opponent's response and that give people more real combat feeling.

The PM "filling the leak" concept is not commonly emphasized by many CMA styles.

People say that Baiji is like grenada, LF is like riffle, and PM is like machine gun. I'm not saying PM is the most perfect system. As far as the combo is concern, PM is much more superior than any other styles on this planet.

[mantis108]

What's the move after

- Yang Taiji "brush knee twist step"?
- XingYi Pao Chuan?
- Baiji upper lifting groin striking?
- WC spear finger?
- Kung Li double chest punches?
- Karate downward block and back reverse punch?
- TKD spin back kick?

What if your opponent gets out of your way or deflects your attack and counter you back?

Not every style has combo like PM does. The PM combo design force people to think their opponent's response and that give people more real combat feeling.

The PM "filling the leak" concept is not commonly emphasized by many CMA styles.

I totally agreed that Mantis teaches counter to counter (chess match attribute). Also stealing (tou), leaking (lou) and filling (bu) are important concepts in Tanglang.

Best regards

Mantis108

[mantisG35]

Again I have to disagree. That may be the case for your particular school but it is not consistant across the general Mantis population. You really can't use your school as an example of what everyone else does.

In Karate you learn to punch, block and kick well before you learn any kata. In Kenpo the forms are a compilation of the techniques. They are taught by calling out the techniques (technique bieng a sequence kicks/strikes/blocks like Crashing Eagle or Cutting the Pagoda).

Look at the curriculum of any Mantis school and you will see forms at every level starting from the very beginning. Like I said, your school might be different but the rest of the Mantis community doesn't wait until black belt/sash level before teaching any forms.

One of the early forms you learn at most Mantis schools is Beng Bu. This form is taught well before black belt/sash level.

im not using my school as an example. historically this is how the entire system has been taught and has been invented. please read up on the art's history from wang lang until today.

[mantiskilla]

Yao Sing--

"How about naming one style that even teaches forms before individual techniques and application?"

I dont know about a whole style that teaches that way, but some schools do...thats why i left.


Youknowwho--

"As far as the combo is concern, PM is much more superior than any other styles on this planet."

Blanket statements such as this are usually incorrect, and I think this is no exception. Many styles have great combinations, but it is up to the individual to use them correctly. PM has nice hands, but so does bak mei, lung ying or many of the hakka based styles (which i must admit i am partial to). Look at video of Mayweather training and tell me Western boxing does not have great combos...maybe a few less techniques, but to me that is a strength, not a weakness. waht about wing chun? what about tai chi? Or any of the 'internal' arts practiced properly?
________
Nikol (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Nikol/)

[Yao Sing]

im not using my school as an example. historically this is how the entire system has been taught and has been invented. please read up on the art's history from wang lang until today.

Again I'll have to say you're wrong. Here's what Sifu Jon Funk of 7 Star Mantis (http://www.mantiskungfu.com/Forms.htm) teaches before black:

Yellow sash level (novice level) - the form Baag Yune Tou Toe with an understanding of how to move properly in the form and a demonstration of the basics.

Orange sash level (novice level) - the form Sub Baad Sou with a verbal understanding of the applications.

Green sash level (intermediate level) - the form Tsaab Tsuui with a physical demonstration of the applications.

Blue sash level (intermediate level) - the form Baag Yune Tsuud Dung with as physical demonstration of the applications and a demonstration of hands only sticky hands and contact sparring.

Brown sash level (assistant instructor level) - Say Lo Bun Daa and Ng Long Gwan with a physical demonstration of the applications, sticky hands, sticky hands with kicking, contact sparring and open hand slap sparring.

Here is another 7 Star Mantis (http://www.itswahq.freeserve.co.uk/) site (click on Forms List on left), Master Lee Kam Wing, listing the forms taught at each level starting at the Basic level with Beng Bu Quan.

Both of these are pretty much mainstream Mantis and typical of how Mantis is taught. As for Wang Lang, if he existed (some claim he's mythical) it is said by those in the Mantis community that he taught 3 forms. Admittedly, the techniques came first just like any other style of martial arts (Mantis is NOT unique in this regard).

Maybe you can explain how someone can create a form before creating the moves that comprise the form?


Yao Sing--

"How about naming one style that even teaches forms before individual techniques and application?"

I dont know about a whole style that teaches that way, but some schools do...thats why i left.

I mentioned that school and like I said, even there you learn the moves first before learning the form (at least the headquarters was like that, can't say about the branch schools). I believe that school teaches the basics (8 stances, 8 punches and a few of the 8 kicks) before teaching any forms.

But I can see by your response to Youknowwho that there's some serious dis-information being given to a beginner.

[mantiskilla]

yao sing--

yes, you are correct, but i was talking along the lines of actually putting things together, combinations, etc and actually using them on another individual...i remember times we would get grief for trying to actually practice using with another person. dont know if it was for fear of insurance issues or whatever, but we would try because no one else would teach us, except on the rare occasion when there would be the "application'' class instead of the usual 'cardio' class. of course even the basics were taught incorrect anyway, and i am not talking in the 'grand scheme' of things, but within the systme itself, but that is another story.
________
Iolite Vaporizer Problems (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

[Yao Sing]

Well that's for another thread if anyone is interested. I obviously know what you're talking about and you're certainly being nice about it.

What I am trying to point out is that even in the case of what some would call the worst case example the moves are taught before the forms. Look at the logic in the statement "all other styles build your forms first to teach you the techniques".

How can you do a form without knowing the moves first? I have never heard of a style that's starts a new student out with a form.

How can you generalise across the board about styles you (in this case MantisG35) you know nothing about? Did you actually train in "all other styles"?

The truth is that ALL styles of MA were created with techniques first and forms came later on. MOST styles of Northern Mantis teach forms along side of drills and applications at every level. It's been like this since the beginning with Wang Lang.

The bottom line is MantisG35 is giving a newbie bad information and there's enough misinformation running around in CMA these days. We don't need to start newbies off with wild claims like the ones posted here.

Now here's something that is unique to Northern Mantis. The forms are not progressive, moving from beginner to advanced like most styles. Each form teaches a different aspect of the style which makes them all equal. There are no 'advanced' Mantis forms. Actually, they are all advanced which is why a lot of Mantis schools start new students with Tan Tui or Long Fist so they have a foundation before attempting the more complex Mantis forms.

In contrast let's look at the system Mantiskilla is referencing. Their forms are progressive in that each new form (for the most part, I question the placement of a few of them) get harder and harder. Each one prepares you for the next level forms. You have to work your way up to the advanced ones.

[mantis108]

Now here's something that is unique to Northern Mantis. The forms are not progressive, moving from beginner to advanced like most styles. Each form teaches a different aspect of the style which makes them all equal. There are no 'advanced' Mantis forms. Actually, they are all advanced which is why a lot of Mantis schools start new students with Tan Tui or Long Fist so they have a foundation before attempting the more complex Mantis forms.

This is actually a good point although I don't believe it's a unique situation for mantis. The forms seem not progressive in mantis is more of a development in light of proliferation of forms. We have to remember that many past masters including Liang Xuexiang (progenitor of the Greater Meihwa Line) had other Kung Fu material before taking up mantis. GM Chiu of CCK TCPM was the same. I believe Wah Lum was develop from GM Lee Kwan Shan's Tan Tui and Mantis (Meihwa Shuaishou) Right? So it is understandable for the teachers' desire to keep a certain material prior to their mantis training. The belt structures that place such forms as Changquan category (Xiao Huyan, Si Lu Bun Da, etc) and Baiyuan series (again Changquan related) before black belt (mantis) would be an attempt to cope with the form proliferation phenomenon in Mantis and often this is the Seven Star side of things, which is the first to develop a strong base in the south (ie Shanghai, Guangdong, and Hong Kong) and North America where Karate and Judo reigned supreme once upon a time.

Personally, I believe that there're 3 mother forms (Bengbu, Luanjie and Bazhou) and a lot of San Shou (not the sport) that are collectively called Mishou 90 hands. That's basically Liang Xuexiang's GML material in a nutshell. I don't believe in belt and ranking system since it doesn't IMHO reflect the holistic and organic philosophy that can be found in Liang Xuexiang's material.

So it is not that GML forms and material are non progressive in nature because there is really a theme or learning timeline rather it is that it has more of a focus on holistic and organic philosophy and approach to Tanglangquan. So it seems that basic is advance and advance is basic.

Just a thought.

Mantis108

[YouKnowWho]

Before you learn PM, a punch is just a punch. After you have learned PM, a punch is more than just a punch. PM can change the way that you think about CMA. Besides the nice combo exist in PM, PM also are

- Fast in speed:

The Zimen guys in Taiwan loved to challenged PM guys for speed. Both Zimen and PM try to reach to the extream speed that when you move your arm, you can only see a blert and not your own hands.

- Well coordinated body movement:

The PM Luanjie form requires that you can only see the body movement and not the limbs movement. In the begining of that form, you will move your body up, down, left, and right to lead your arm (Wu Da Lan Huan Pi - 5 continuous striking). This is very advanced training method.

No matter how advanced that PM is, PM still has some weak spots. PM power generation is inferior to Baiji, XYLF, and Chen Taiji. PM throwing skill is also inferior to SC. Many people in China and Taiwan believe that one should learn at least the following 3 styles in his life time:

- PM, or Zimen for speed.
- Baiji, XYLH, or Chen Taiji for power.
- SC for throwing skill.

[yu shan]

Some of my students train Chen Taiji. I have been informed that tomorrow their Teacher is coming to sit in on my Saturday morning class. Apparently he see`s things in our PM that compares to Chen Taiji. Wang Laoshi is a wonderful man and I feel so incredibly honored to have him in my class. He is from the same city in Taiwan as our DaShifu Master Shi, small world huh. I just think it is so special that a Master of Chen Taiji appreciates Tanglang so much. But I must confess, in a way I am nervous, but more than anything it will be a good day to let the teachings shine.

Mantis108 & YouKnowWho, are there some special things I should know about having this Man in our school. I know most but interested in hearing your opinion. Sorry for such a last minute, I just found out! It is all good though, I am confident with our Tanglang.

[YouKnowWho]

It's alway good to have someone asking questions from different style point of view. If you are asking what should you watch out if he challenges you in front of your students then my suggestion is "don't let him build up a bridge with you". If you are good in "Gua - combing hair" (Bon Bu Chuan move #3) or "Dao - inside wrist hooking" then you should be able to "bounce" his arm away and you should not have any problem.

[yu shan]

I will make him feel right at home for sure, he is a kind and gentle man. No fear of a challenge whatsoever. I have witnessed teachers practicing Chen, but I know nothing about, thus the kind questions. Wang Laoshi asked my students to demonstrate Tanglang for him, and compared some equally used techs. in each. And from what I hear he is very appreciative of what he sees in my students.

LOL, funny thing I have been reviewing this inside wrist move all week. We have a nifty hand drill that teaches this move and for some reason I brought it out of the closet. Probably because I have some newbies in class and it is sort of a basic drill.

[mantis108]

I don't think everyone in MA is hostile although we all have ego to a varying degree. My policy in general to deal with people who are interested in attending or observing my class would be cautiously optimistic with a large dose of politeness (100+20%). :) No harm in being alert and beware of trickery - better safe than sorry.

If I go to observe someone else's class, I would be on time or a bit early and make my introduction (if I weren't able to phone or write before hand) and ask permission to observe then I would just sit, keep quiet, and watch until class time is over. Leaving during classtime is not a polite thing to do IMHO. So whether I enjoy the class or not I would stick till the end. I like people who have confidence in their class and invite me to join in. I think it's a better way to experience the FU. If I am interested, I would ask question politely after class. If I am not interested, I would thank the host and bow out.

I have invited people to join the class and partner with them. And I have asked people to conduct a class (like my Fanzi friend) especially when they have exceptional skills.

I think just be honest, frank and most of all be yourself. Don't be hostile and mean. A little kindness goes a long long way, my friend. :)

Warm regards

Robert