Instructor Fitness

[47MartialMan]

I was weight training with an associate in a health fitness gym when we had taken notice of a large man, oddly shaped, but not grossly corpulent.

My associate stated that the fellow was the center's Tai Ji instructor. Followed by another on how he did not approve that such a person be capable of teaching Tai Ji.

My question to him was;

To be a teacher in such, one has to be in top shape?


Followed by another,

Does a teacher has to have been a student or a person of example?

In other words, can a teacher or coach be one that has not played the game? (In this instance-be in shape)

Respectfully looking for replies.,

[Chief Fox]

In other words, can a teacher or coach be one that has not played the game? (In this instance-be in shape)


Would you say that the person in the link below is in shape?

http://www.neijia.net/obrazy/galeria/yang_chengfu.jpg

He's got pudgy cheeks, a double chin and a very thick neck. Many people would consider this man to be out of shape by today's standards.

Here's another picture. His name is Yang Chengfu. Yang Tai Chi master.

http://jianluo.schloss-voss.de/Lehrmaterialien%20Download/Yang%20Single%20Peitsche.jpg

[samson818]

To be a solid practitioner/instructor of many martial arts, you do not have to be in "shape" or resemble a bodybuilder.
I know many instructors who teach Taiji, Bagua, Hsingyi, etc. who can throw most physically fit people around like ragdolls - past and present.
You may also want to try his hands out before you make any assumptions based on his appearance. He may be good, he may be horrible....
His focus may be on solidifying the foundations of his art (body mechanics, form, pushhands...), rather than fitness.

That being said, I personally feel like one should be a presentable representation for your style/school/lineage.
In actions, abilities, and appearance.

Different strokes for different folks.

[laugarkuen]

I feel as long as the instructor can do what he says he can then there is no problem, though I agree with samson818 that you should also be presentable.

If you are a tai chi instructor then there is no need to be able to run around like a maniac but you should be able to perform your forms without collapsing (including cannon fist).

If you are a kickboxing instructor on the other hand I would expect you to be very fit but I would wonder how you would do with pushing hands for example.

[BoulderDawg]

I think it's a little difficult to really teach a high intensity MA if you are out of shape. So much is done by example and a good teacher works hard.

I think it even goes to other sports. The football caoch at Notre Dame is a good example. I know he's an excellent coach however if I was being recuited I would have real concerns that this man would not make it through my fours years in the program.

[samson818]

I wanted to add that many oldschool Kung Fu Sifus get pretty out of shape as they get older.
If you look at pictures of them in their youth, most look pretty lean and mean.
They probably trained harder than most of us.
This is not to excuse their appearance, but I guess its about prioritization.
You only have so much time during the day to teach, make money, family, and train yourself.
That being said, their skill level has also increased dramatically despite their considerable bulk.

[samson818]

I wanted to add that many oldschool Kung Fu Sifus get pretty out of shape as they get older.
If you look at pictures of them in their youth, most look pretty lean and mean.
They probably trained harder than most of us.
This is not to excuse their appearance, but I guess its about prioritization.
You only have so much time during the day to teach, make money, family, and train yourself.
That being said, their skill level has also increased dramatically despite their considerable bulk.

[David Jamieson]

martial skill and being buff are not hand in hand.

tank abbot. there you go. :p

being fit and looking like a body builder also are not communed.

many body builders look good, but are seriously crappy fighters even with their strength. what are they gonna do? Curl you? military press you? they have jaws like anyone else.

don't judge a book by it's cover, it's projecting and it's a shallow view and you will wind up with crappy instruction if that's your only criteria.

I know more than a few sensei and sifu who are fit, but look just average.

anyway... not saying it's a black or white thing, just saying if you want to look buff, then go do that, but if you want to learn martial art, then do that. they are not the same regimens by any stretch.

if you fight competitively you will likely get pretty buff because of the amount of training and conditioning required.

if you practice martial arts as a life thing, you will be fit, you might even get buff, but body form doesn't mean a punch won't work.

[47MartialMan]

So could it be said, the only way to absolutely know and instruct about something is to experience it?

Should someone have been good at whatever in order to teaching?

Would one ever learn swimming from somebody who cannot swim??

Some doctors smoke and do unhealthy habits, yet tell patients not to.

If you were to seek health advice, would you expect the person to be very healthy.?

A teacher should know what he is talking about and could the only way you can trully know something is to have practiced that knowledge yourself?

Although some boxing coaches were not boxers, could you ever learn fighting from somebody who could not fight?

Swimming from somebody who could not swim?

And not take health advice from somebody who is not healthy?

[Chief Fox]

Mike Tyson & Trainer Cus D'Amato

http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/thumb/7/70/Damato.jpg/300px-Damato.jpg

[SevenStar]

I think it's a little difficult to really teach a high intensity MA if you are out of shape. So much is done by example and a good teacher works hard.

I think it even goes to other sports. The football caoch at Notre Dame is a good example. I know he's an excellent coach however if I was being recuited I would have real concerns that this man would not make it through my fours years in the program.


good teachers also age. look at a lot of the older boxing coaches. They can and will train the bejesus outta you based on their experience, though they may no longer be able to work at the same level themselves. Sticking with your example, You will be hard pressed to find ANY football coaches that could keep up with the regimen their players go through. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't back in the day. You can't overlook experience.

If whomever your teacher is in whatever style you train in was no longer able to train at the same intensity himself, but was still teaching, would you leave him?

That said, if the guy is fairly young, yes, I can see your point. However, once the youth starts to fade, performance will also.

[SevenStar]

I was weight training with an associate in a health fitness gym when we had taken notice of a large man, oddly shaped, but not grossly corpulent.

My associate stated that the fellow was the center's Tai Ji instructor. Followed by another on how he did not approve that such a person be capable of teaching Tai Ji.

My question to him was;

To be a teacher in such, one has to be in top shape?


one thing to note here - you are looking at classes being held in a gym. People will not be as quick to want to work with a trainer that is (or at least looks to be) in worse shape than they are. Teaching and training in a gym, you will fare better if you are in top shape.



Followed by another,

Does a teacher has to have been a student or a person of example?

In other words, can a teacher or coach be one that has not played the game? (In this instance-be in shape)

Respectfully looking for replies.,

I personally would not train under anyone who had not had first hand experience in what he was teaching me at some point in his career. How can you accurately teach me something that you have not done yourself?

[47MartialMan]

But, we are not talking about a "health-fitness" instructor like an aerobics or weight training.

[TenTigers]

Frankly, I feel that you must 'Be the Product" you should look like a Sifu. I teach Hung-Ga, and although I am nearly 50, I am in good shape and am still working out, still trying to improve myself, my art, my performance, my knowledge, etc.
I also find that the harder I train, the more motivated I am as a teacher. It's like getting your batteries chasrged.

[47MartialMan]

So, in the essence of teaching,

If your going to teach ANYTHING to ANYONE you should be good at it.

If learning Spanish, it is expected that the instructor speak it fluently and have spent a good portion of time in a spanish speaking country.

If teaching someone how to fight and get in shape for competition, is it to expect that th teacher have competed before, and are in pretty beastly in also?

[SevenStar]

But, we are not talking about a "health-fitness" instructor like an aerobics or weight training.

No, you're not, but I will bet money that most people attending a gym will not make that discinction. you work in a gym and must therefore be in shape - that is the logic there.

[SevenStar]

If learning Spanish, it is expected that the instructor speak it fluently and have spent a good portion of time in a spanish speaking country.

not quite. I don't care where the teacher has been. Heck, there are like 100,000 hispanics in my city - if he can hold conversation with them, that's all I need. Likewise, it's not important whether or not an MA instructor has been to the country of his style's origin.


If teaching someone how to fight and get in shape for competition, is it to expect that th teacher have competed before

yes.


and are in pretty beastly in also?

No.

[47MartialMan]

Keep in mind. My posts are rhetorical and not my opinion. I am looking for responses o=in any fashion.

[David Jamieson]

To teach, you need to have thorough understanding of the material and ability to transmit it. These generally come from years in and first hand experience.

Yes, a younger guy should be fit and in good shape. No, this is not required of a man of years, but then, I've seen plenty examples of cma-ists who are over seventy and in fantastic shape and still quite spry. This is a testament to their art and personal practice.

a person can be large and still have a lot of hands and still be very knowledgable.

also, you can start learning somewhere, and move on elsewhere. You may wind up getting corrected, but hey, that's where you get your own first hand experience. :)

[qixingmantis]

Greeting all fellow boxers

i think it is crazy to try and justify an overweight instructor or martial artist.......when damo taught the monks the 18 excerises that make up the foundation of all gong fu...he did so because they where weak and not in good shape.....we as westerners will always try justify our actions ....just stop eating take out and train hard...drink heaps of water.......martial arts is for ones self...and one would want to be in top physical shape.....having trained with monks and seen the the shape they are in inspires me to be the same.......besides who wants to walk into a mantis or shaolin kwoon and be faced by a podgy instructor......id head for the hills...coz then hes not training himself and is lazy and his skills will be found lacking......so bottom line fat instructors less mickey D and KFC.....train hard , dont be lazy.......

thats my few south african cents worth....and it aint worth much......

[David Jamieson]

all im saying is don't judge a book by it's cover.

[Fu-Pow]

I think that any martial arts program should be built on the foundation of general physical preparedness. Even if you do internal arts you should supplement your routine with some kind of cardio, even if it is only maintain weight and keep your heart strong. This is an issue that I've been dealing with myself as I've switched from an external to internal martial arts focus. External arts was a lot of "huff and puff" and kept me sweating and in shape. I like Taiji better because the body mechanics are more efficient, but its almost TOO efficient so I am not burning the calories and getting the cardio workout. Some people might be able to get away with this but I'm the type of person that will gain weight if they do not do some kind of vigorous cardio on a regular basis.

[laugarkuen]

Fu Pow,

Don't know what style of Tai Chi you do but if you want cardio try learning cannon fists from Chen. Makes me tired just thinking about it :p

[YiLiQuan1]

I am 38 years old, 5'8" tall, and I weigh in at 230 lbs. I am active duty military, and I routinely do quite well on my physical fitness test. I lift weights, including kettlebell routines, and I practice martial arts and Army Combatives. Though I'm often accused of having no neck and imitating a small wall, there are others that think I'm out of shape due to my height/weight ratio.

I've seen "fatty" martial arts instructors who hid behind their deadly fight skills. I've seen very "in shape" martial artists with craptacular technique that'd fail to drop even a slightly determined Girl Scout. There's a necessary balance of skill and fitness for a fighter to be capable of executing his/her technique successfully, and denying this in favor of an argument such as "I do Tai Chi, and it's so efficient at what it's intended to do that I don't have to be in shape," or any equivalent nonsense, speaks with great volume about the kind of martial artist presenting said argument.

Should a teacher be in good shape? Certainly. Failing to "walk the walk" immediately undermines the credibility of the instructor and what he/she has to offer.

Do you follow a swimming teacher that tells you swimming is good for fitness when said swimming teacher can't swim and is fat?

Do you follow a biking teacher that tells you biking is good for fitness when said biking teacher can't ride a bike and is fat?

Do you follow a fitness coach that tells you fitness training (e.g. aerobics, weight training, etc.) is good for fitness when said fitness teacher can't do whatever exercise they espouse and is fat?

Of course not. That'd just be silly.

But people routinely sign up for lessons in deadly martial arts that are also great for melting off the pounds, taught by overweight, out of shape, lard ass teachers. Check out some of the "black belts" found on some online forums and you'll find more than sufficient evidence to support my position...

Enjoy.

[sunfist]

Dont expect a fellow who spent the best part of his youth in highly disreputable places to take care of his body in the least. However as has been above stated, an athelete in his prime should clearly show it. Its interesting that we have such an inherent need to quantify what constitutes a 'good martial artist', and is perhaps a reflection of how insecure the average martial artist is today.

A bit of common sense and careful observation are the best possible tools for determining the ability of any given teacher, and IMHO making 'rules' only makes the matter more complicated than it should be.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I train really hard and at times overdue it a bit. However genetically i am short and built more like the troll from lord of the rings with high genetic cholesterol.

I can outlast most of my fighters in several areas, ab workouts to lead the list.
but if i slow my workouts i am prone to quick weight gain esp after i turned 35.
I still do alomost 1000 punches a day and will take shots from my biggest fighters as well as give them back.

I do not think looks have anything to do with physical ability. A body builder trains for looks not strength Look at some of the greatest powerlifters they can be ugly as sin but the best at their art and lest we forget the man with the haymaker from hell
BUTTERBEAN

[samson818]

I think a fundamental lack of knowledge of nutrition leads to many overweight practitioners despite rigorous training.

Also, rigorous training in martial arts is very specific.
If you do not enhance your training with general conditioning, then you will be lacking in the aesthetics department.

[lannei]

So, in the essence of teaching,

If your going to teach ANYTHING to ANYONE you should be good at it.

If learning Spanish, it is expected that the instructor speak it fluently and have spent a good portion of time in a spanish speaking country.

If teaching someone how to fight and get in shape for competition, is it to expect that th teacher have competed before, and are in pretty beastly in also?
Yah! i agree with you ,in fact as a teacher or coach ,the most importance is that you should have skillful craftsmanship ,and the appearance is subordinate .

[YiLiQuan1]

Yah! i agree with you ,in fact as a teacher or coach ,the most importance is that you should have skillful craftsmanship ,and the appearance is subordinate .

Except when said skill is directly related to physical performance...

Do you listen to the health advice given by a doctor that smokes, is overweight, and breaks into a sweat during a simple exam?

Do you do anything anyone tells you when that person is wholly unable to do what it is they are allegedly teaching you to do?

Bottom line, severely overweight instructors ought to find something else to do with their time... There are two instructors that leap to mind, both of whom have been raked over the coals on a number of forums, who are so hefty that their uniform tops look like they're smuggling a 50lb bag of dogfood out of the class... Their belts are hidden beneath their belly fat! Regardless of what they may know in their head, they can't get it out fully because they can't do the same things they're trying to teach you to do... Their value as instructors is seriously hampered at that point.

[BoulderDawg]

A martial artist should care for all his weapons. Above all he should care for the most important one...his/her body.

Learning a MA is more than just knowledge of forms/sparring/whatever. It's a whole mind/body experience. If an instructor is fat and out of shape (reguardless of his age) and not in control of his own life how can he instruct others?

[SevenStar]

I train really hard and at times overdue it a bit. However genetically i am short and built more like the troll from lord of the rings with high genetic cholesterol.

I can outlast most of my fighters in several areas, ab workouts to lead the list.
but if i slow my workouts i am prone to quick weight gain esp after i turned 35.
I still do alomost 1000 punches a day and will take shots from my biggest fighters as well as give them back.

I do not think looks have anything to do with physical ability. A body builder trains for looks not strength Look at some of the greatest powerlifters they can be ugly as sin but the best at their art and lest we forget the man with the haymaker from hell
BUTTERBEAN

you have to remember what you are dealing with. you're dealing with the general public, not a crowd of people familiar with martial arts. Physically, you and I are polar opposites. I am a stocky, muscular guy. If we stood next to eachother and asked people who they thought would win a fight, they would most likely say me, just based off of looks, which is what they perceive as both fitness and fighting ability, regardless of what the actual outcome would be. I've had to bounce guys out of the club who have tried me, but I've also had several who went willingly, but said they woulda tried to kick my butt if I wasn't so big. perception is a mutha.

[SevenStar]

I think a fundamental lack of knowledge of nutrition leads to many overweight practitioners despite rigorous training.

Also, rigorous training in martial arts is very specific.
If you do not enhance your training with general conditioning, then you will be lacking in the aesthetics department.

I wouldn't say that. In a lot of schools, the training is not rigorous at all. 1 hour class, a few mins of calesthenics followed by learning techniques and running thru forms several times... while I was fortunate enough to have karate and cma instructors that were big on being in shape, I never really experienced a really rigorous workout until I started judo, bjj and muay thai.

[Raised by Swans]

I feel it's absolutely imperative for all CMA instructors to maintain a high level of fitness with regards to their own personal experiences. Who knows what shape the slovenly taichi instructor you saw in the gym is in. It could be that he use to way double what he does now and through training in taichi has wittled himself down. Perhaps for him, what you saw is his personal best or perhaps he's still striving for better and what you saw is merely one point in time on one step of his journey. Or perhaps, he's exactly what you saw, a sloppy instructor.

From an application standpoint, I feel every CMA practitioner and instructor should work to reduce excess body fat. Not for the purpose of maintaining the MA look or marketing/sales, but because CMA deals with qi and large amounts of body fat constrict qi meridians, which can lead to blockages and a decreased ability to manipulate qi and illness.

Excessive weight also contributes to posture issues which also impair qi circulation and the effectiveness of techniques (i.e. a person with a pot belly tends to lean forward, destroying the neutrality and stability of their stance).

Many instructors get around their fitness decline through superior knowledge and technique, but think about what they would be capable of if they maintained themselves.

With that being said, you don't have to down protein shakes and build 16 inch biceps. Over development of muscles can also create detrimental qi blockages, undo strain on the body and illness.

It's about finding a personal balance and maintaining it.

Best Regards

[Fuzzly]

A lot of good discussion so far in this thread. All I wanted to add is that a few times I've seen people who look way out of shape. I'll think to myself "wow, they must be out of shape." and then crank out some crazy form/workout that completely amazes me.

[47MartialMan]

What if you spend 40 years learning and teaching martial arts that suddenly you had a accident that left you with a bad limp, amputee, or other hinderance to where you cant perform....

Are you less of a teacher?

Is all of your knowledge gone?

Athletic coaches such as boxing coaches, swimming coaches, gymnastic coaches, they cant perform, yet they produce champions from their knowledge.

[YiLiQuan1]

What if you spend 40 years learning and teaching martial arts that suddenly you had a accident that left you with a bad limp, amputee, or other hinderance to where you cant perform....

Are you less of a teacher?

Is all of your knowledge gone?

The primary difference, though, is that you're talking about someone who may have been in proper condition, and physically capable, prior to the injury (something they can no longer do anything about).

If a fat martial arts teacher continues to teach while fat, he/she is going to have to expect to get called out about it at some point... You can't grow back an amputated limb, but you can lose weight. For most folks, fitness is one major draw of martial arts training. How can a fat teacher justify offering MA training for fitness, when he/she is unfit?

[cjurakpt]

to me the analogy is this: if you are a psychologist and crazy, how can you treat patients? it's not just about telling someone what to do, it's modeling it; as a physical therapist, if I was walking around in constant pain, or unable to do at least 10 good reps of anything I want someone else to do, how could I possibly act as a guide for that person?

for anyone teaching anything related to physical fitness / health, you should at least have some baseline level in either one / both; if you are walking around with a heavy gut, I don't care who you are, you are not healthy (most old "masters" I've seen who have lived to a ripe old age, do tend to be on the thin side...); while you may have good pushands ability, I'd give you a few minutes tops at your target HR before you gassed out - that's not so good...BTW, as far as Yang Cheng Fu - he wasn't always that portly - in the early set of photos of him doing the form, he is slim and trim - he only pudged up after he became successful and accepted many invites out to "tea"; incidently, he died at a very early age (for a supposed tai chi master)

as for tai chi in general - my teacher, for example, isn't built like an Olympic athlete, but he embodies the principles he espouses - when he moves, he moves with an overall sense of ease and fluidity, even when he isn't "doing" taichi; furthermore, as a Buddhist / Taoist teacher, his life is an example of how his art is applied, including on his off-time which, if one is fortunate enough to spend time with him in this capacity, enables one to see how he interracts when he and his wife disagree, or one of his kids has some issues, or whatever: he's not perfect, but he walks the walk - he is a product of what he teaches, so what you see is what you can expect to get...

walk the walk...