IronFist's standing post qigong experiment

[IronFist]

They say you can't learn qigong from a book. Well, I'm going to try and learn it from a book and your guys' advice, so I guess that's technically not "learning from a book," but anyway.

Starting tomorrow, I'm going to start doing the standing post as described in "the Way of Qigong: the art and Science of Chinese Energy Healing" by Kenneth S. Cohen. I'll start with 5 minutes in the morning before class.

Now the cool part, since books always leave unanswered questions, that's where you guys come in. Since you all rule here on this forum, you can help me out with any questions I have, right? Right? Good :)

Ok, first question:

1. It says always wait at least 2 hours after eating before doing any qigong. How long after doing qigong must I wait before I can eat??? I need to eat breakfast sometime :)

2. Are there any special rules about waiting after sex, and stuff? A lot of qigong methods I have read about say "do not practice for 24 hours after sex (ejaculation)". What happens if you do? This isn't iron body or anything, so if I have sex one night can I not practice the next day?

Those are my questions for now. I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Thanks guys,

Iron

[IronFist]

and as soon as someone answers my two questions, i can begin!

Iron

[Braden]

I'd wait at least half an hour after qigong before eating anything. It's tough because alot of people do qigong right when getting up, and they have to squeeze breakfast in somewhere.

Don't worry too much about the sex stuff. A 24 hour wait between ejaculating and qigong is ideal, but you want to be doing qigong every day, so... well... you do the math, and realize you'll be breaking the rule on occasion. ;)

The real answer, although it's not immediately helpfull, is that you have to learn to listen to your body - it pretty much tells you what it needs. In fact, this is perhaps the greatest goal/benefit of proper qigong practice. With this in mind, the "rule of thumb" is not to practice when it feels wrong. Don't confuse this with being difficult though, proper qigong practice is very difficult (in the strenuous sense, although not strenuous like lifting heavy weights - it's got it's own thing going on). But when you start listening to your body, it will tell you "Man, I don't wanna be doing this right now, gimme a while to get my juices flowing again."

[IronFist]

Thanks, Braden.

Ironfist

[Braden]

Sure man, tell us how it goes.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 1. It says always wait at least 2 hours after eating before doing any qigong. How long after doing qigong must I wait before I can eat??? I need to eat breakfast sometime

[/quote]

I think I heard that you aren't supposed to be full, but your also not supposed to be totally hungry either. So I guess you could have a small snack before starting. Thats usually what I do on Saturday mornings before class.


As for the sex thing. I'd avoid having sex right before chi gung or tai ji practice. I've found that not only does it screw up your energy, but it makes the legs weak and the back stiff. Some of my worst workouts have been after doing the horizontal mambo. I'd give yourself at least a couple hours in between, and be sure to stretch out the hips and lower back real well.

Peace

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Wongsifu]

what i usually say is how long is it ok for you, for example sometimes i may wait 1 hour + after practise i eat and feel cruddy because all the energy and blood is spread out evenly throughout the body,then you put a lot of food in your gut all the blood and energy rushes there and blah you feel sicko, whereas other people dont feel the energy so there is no point to tell them dont eat.
Abotu the sex stuff sometimes it is ok to -ractise right after because it will help the body replace the lost energy , other times though you burn the wick at both ends because you have just lost a lot of energy and you take more from your storage centre and you will feel tottaly tired.

just do as you feel best/

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[patriot]

You really don't have to worry about all those troubles if you are just going to practise 5 mins a day ....... you'll never gather enough chi to start with even if you practise for a hundred years.

[IronFist]

patriot

sorry buddy, i was told to start at 5 mins a day. not everyone can start at 2 hours of qigong a day like you can.

iron

[Braden]

I started with 1 minute sessions.

You start short and build up slowly. That's DEFINITELY the way to do it.

[Braden]

IF - reading your journal; here's a couple tips:

Don't practice if you have a fever!!!

Sweating is common. Not only are you working muscles (ones that aren't used to that kind of exercise at first, and ones that aren't used to any exercise once you can get those to relax!), but you're also generating alot of heat. Actually, expect to sweat ALOT.

You might not want to add a minute a week; that's quite an aggressive schedule. If you push yourself too hard, you'll simply have no chance of holding correct posture, nor of relaxing and clearing your mind through the basic physical strain. The way I progressed was simply to add 30 seconds to each posture every time I could do it without ruining my posture and mindset. Advancing from 5 minutes to 40 with this method may very well take a couple years! So don't rush it.

[patriot]

1 minute Qigong!! Give me a break.

[lloyd]

In my opinion when you can stand for longer periods, practice after sex can have a bad effect on you. It may not be instant, but it might kick in when you are older. Chinese beliefs are very strict about this. Low stances are out of the question. The exact time of recovery is individual, but you can check out Ma Chuanxu's interview on Jarek's martial arts page. He says some things on the subject that you might take into consideration.

[Braden]

Yes, one minute. I was holding each posture for one minute, and I'd only learnt one posture.

Do you have a problem with that?

[patriot]

Braden,

I have no problem with that. Good luck (you'll need it).

[Braden]

That was years ago. I'm doing quite well now, thank you.

Unlike many others on this board, I'm incapable of instantaneously learning several postures to perfection, nor was I suddenly blessed upon adulthood with the perfect internal structure so I could hold them all for several minutes immediately. So I had to probe each posture and learn it's lessons well before moving on. For those uninterested in such lessons - I wish YOU good luck. ;)

[patriot]

Braden,

What are your "competent" instructors' explanation for the 40 min max for standing qigong ?

[Braden]

eg. http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/25/239.html?998325645

Check the last post of the thread.

[patriot]

I can see why you set up a 45 min target when you start out but that is not an absolute limit. Same way you don't start training for the Marathon by running the full distance the first time. Many experienced people in China, especially those practising Yiquan, routinely hold the posture hours on end.

[grounded]

From my experience the issue is not to wait 24 hours after sex, but 24 after TOO MUCH sex. The legs are a storehouse for qi, and qi leaves the body during ejaculation (thus the Taoist exercises to prevent it). I can often tell from someone's balance in class if they have been sexually active within a day or so. Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg especially. (If you have doubts, videotape yourself doing the form after sex and again 24 hours after). But in response to the original question, find a good teacher. I know of people who have caused themselves damage by improper Qigong, learned anywhere save from a qualified teacher. Of course, standing stake for less than 1/2 an hour is probably not very effective or dangerous.

[IronFist]

I know of people who have caused themselves damage by improper Qigong, learned anywhere save from a qualified teacher.

Dude you have to give examples after saying something like that :P

Iron

[MasterPhil]

Braden : "Unlike many others on this board, I'm incapable of instantaneously learning several postures to perfection, nor was I suddenly blessed upon adulthood with the perfect internal structure..." -- Really? You too? I seem to suffer from the same problem... Must be something in the water!

Patriot : Ironfist is just starting. 1 min. seems reasonable. It's not a race and the important thing is that he does it consistently for the rest of his life.
"Many experienced people in China, especially those practising Yiquan, routinely hold the posture hours on end." -- Assuming you do the postures correctly, how long does a person with your skill holds them?

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[patriot]

1 min is too short because it takes the body more than 1 min to settle down to a quiet relaxed state and for adjustments to the posture, especially for a beginner.

Quality and not quantity should be the determinig factor on the duration of your stand. My point was I don't see why there should be a 40 min max if you are comfortable and adjusted. Duration does count.

[Nexus]

Personally I think IronFist should choose 4 postures, not including wuji, and one that must be embracing the one and possibly embracing the womb and do those for at least 5 minutes during each session. Those are probably the two most vital qi gong's for development in early stages IMO. They are the ones that laid the foundation for myself and many other practioners I know of.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Braden]

"1 min is too short because it takes the body more than 1 min to settle down to a quiet relaxed state and for adjustments to the posture."

A beginner cannot achieve the proper quiet relaxed state nor can he make proper adjustments to his posture. But we can hope he can clear his mind of extraneous thoughts for a minute, and try to approximate the posture given to him by his instructor for a minute, before fatigue and stillness take their toll. I'd love to hear the logic that suggests the contrary.

Besides which, qigong isn't about doing it right or wrong. It's about learning; progressing.

I did 1 minute long qigong for a week, then I learnt the next posture and was holding qigong for 2 minutes. And so on. I'd love to hear the schedule you prefer for teaching. Like I said, like most students I was incapable of instantaneously memorizing a multitude of postures. So I learnt them properly - one at a time. Do you expect beginners to be given an entire qigong curriculum their first day of class?

"My point was I don't see why there should be a 40 min max if you are comfortable and adjusted."

I've provided a direct quote from a student of the disciple of the founder of Yiquan saying they discovered through trial and error that 45 minutes of standing was ideal.

You've said "Many experienced people in China, especially those practising Yiquan, routinely hold the posture hours on end." Interesting. :)

[IronFist]

Personally I think IronFist should choose 4 postures, not including wuji, and one that must be embracing the one and possibly embracing the womb and do those for at least 5 minutes during each session.

Nexus, can you describe the postures you've mentioned? Thanks.

Iron

[Nexus]

Ok. IronFist, after reading my post you may wish to take a look at The Qi Journal (http://www.qi-journal.com).

All postures below can start from Posture 1, or from any of the other postures and vise versa etc...

Posture 1. Wuji - standing with back straight, feet shoulder width apart, buttocks slightly tucked, chin tucked in, eyes/facing forward (closed or partly open), arms hanging loosely and relaxed at the sides, chest sunk in slightly.

Posture 2. Embracing the One - Standing back straight, buttocks slightly tucked, chin tucked in, eyes facing forward (same), arms in the position of hugging a tree (sometimes called this), where your arms are forward with fingers pointing towards eachother & hands appearing horizontal. You want your shoulders slightly rounded forward and your chest sunk in so that your abdomen area can actually relax. Make sure there is enough space between your armpits that a tennis ball could be place there. Same goes for the next posture.

The above posture will identify to you any back tension, arm tension, leg tension etc that you have and over time practicing this will relieve that and allow you to relax and breath to the dan tien. For now though just focus on concentrating ont he breath.

Posture 3. Embracing the Womb - From Posture 2, lower the hands to the waist area (hence womb), and repeat the above except turning the hands upwards so it looks as if you are holding something in both hands at your waist. Your elbows should be facing outwards to your right and left and once again your hands are pointing towards eachother.

In terms of the fingers, I will include a picture below of how the hand should be rounded between the pointer finger and the thumb.

And pick two others which you think will be beneficial and comforting to your practice. Once you become proficient at these, add one more to your routine, maybe every two weeks or so. Remember, taiji is a life encompassing practice (chi kung) and in doing so there is no rush, the gains will come over time and the higher the quality of your practicing, the sooner you will see those gains and some of them are absolutely fascinating.

In regards to "Embracing the One" the title is given by the idealisms brought upon by Taoists.

In philisophical terms, "as Taoists become whole, embracing the "one," they are able to commune with the cosmic order which is also whole. At this stage, it is as though Taoists find a common denominator between the self and the totalitv which surrounds them, and they are able to join together because of this similarity."


http://qi-journal.com/QigongArticles/Photos/BodyPosture2.jpg

http://qi-journal.com/QigongArticles/Photos/BodyPosture3.gif

Embracing the womb.. This is close to what this looks like --> http://www.ascoart.com/rada-asco.jpg

Hope this helps IronFist.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[IronFist]

Nexus, thanks for the description and pics.

Posture 2. Embracing the One - Standing back straight, buttocks slightly tucked, chin tucked in, eyes facing forward (same), arms in the position of hugging a tree (sometimes called this), where your arms are forward with fingers pointing towards eachother & hands appearing horizontal. You want your shoulders slightly rounded forward and your chest sunk in so that your abdomen area can actually relax. Make sure there is enough space between your armpits that a tennis ball could be place there. Same goes for the next posture.

That sounds like what I do for my first position. I'm not sure I like my 3rd position, where my hands are up by my face, but we'll see what happens. I'm anxious to get pics put up now so you guys can tell me what you think.

So how many postures do you advocate doing? From your post, it sounds like 5(?). You had 1. Wuji, 2. Embracing the tree, 3. Embracing the womb, and then you said pick two others.

Is there a particular reason to begin with wuji? I begin with Embracing the One.

One more question, if I work out to the point of muscle soreness the next day, can I still practice qigong if my muscles are sore?

Thanks again,

Iron

[IronFist]

bump for Nexus

Iron

[patriot]

Braden,

Relax and have a nice day. Don't lose any qi over this. Good luck in your practise.

[Nexus]

Glad my advice could be of some assistance. Hopefully you are following your instincts and doing what you think is best and feels best for your body.

"Is there a particular reason to begin with wuji?"

I would have to say yes, but this is due to the way that I have been taught. Basically the answer is rather simple which is wuji is relaxed and a non-demanding posture, allowing you to comfortably settle into doing the qi gong and the letting the energy flow naturally. It is also considered a neutral position as any qi gong posture can comfortably stem from the wuji posture. An example would be embracing the one, as you will bring the arms upwards, along the sides of the body, leading with the wrists, and when at chest level, turn them so the fingers face eachother. With practice this becomes very smooth and comfortable, and you let your body do it when it wants to.

"I begin with Embracing the One."
That is indeed the first posture I go to after wuji. The reason is basically that I am able to settle into qi gong with wuji, so when I do embracing the one, im gaining the full benefit of it and the qi is already beginning to circulate more freely prior to doing it so its more relaxing.

"One more question, if I work out to the point of muscle soreness the next day, can I still practice qigong if my muscles are sore?"

The muscles that are getting sore are not standard muscles as I have said before. In knowing this, you will begin to see after time that these muscles are posture muscles and do not require the same time for healing. After a good nights rest, you will be good enough to practice qi gong the following day. In the beginning, it is not uncommon to experience sore muscles, but I must recommend that you do not go until you are so sore you cannot continue doing qi gong. Usually I like to go to a point where I know I could go a few more minutes, or in your case maybe 30 more seconds, and then I move onto the next posture, and closing the qi gong with wuji.
Usually when I finish Qi Gong I feel energized and more relaxed.

So in short terms, practice every day, try not to miss a day, make time to practice or if you feel as if you don't have time, make time to practice. You will become more comfortable doing your qi gong wherever you are if necessary, much as a religiously devoted person is comfortable doing prayers or whatnot wherever they are even if people are watching.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[IronFist]

The muscles that are getting sore are not standard muscles as I have said before. In knowing this, you will begin to see after time that these muscles are posture muscles and do not require the same time for healing. After a good nights rest, you will be good enough to practice qi gong the following day.

Nexus, oops, I think I phrased my question wrong. What I meant was, if I work out hard in the gym and get those muscles sore, can I still do qigong. Not if I'm sore from qigong. I assume the answer is yes, I can still do qigong, but I figured I'd ask you anway.

Hmm, I think I might change the postures/order that I do, or maybe I will just begin with wuji. We'll see, once I get pics posted.

Thanks again,

Iron

[Nexus]

The answer to your question is yes, you can practice qi gong every day even if you are sore from a muscle workout.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Repulsive Monkey]

Well, thats it you see, if you're doing muscle work outs and Qi-Gong you MAY (not necessarily WILL) end getting no where what so ever. Qi-gong requires relaxation and musclular tensions are what you are trying to release with Qi Gong, so you may actually be retarding your Qi Gong practice with your Muscular work outs.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I know this sounds like a bad news dy as far as advice goes, but the simple plain truth is, NEVER EVER DO QIGONG FROM A BOOK. You really need a good teacher if you don't want to potentially harm yourself. You can't correct yourself onyour own or from the other angle you can't advance yourself on your own. You really do need someone in the room at the same time for corrections. Corrections over the net are no good if you gain internal injuries to be honest, we can't know for sure how you've been moving your Qi, and how to rebalance it. My best advice would sincerely be to find a teacher so as to save yourself from potential harm.