Taijiquan's health (or longevity) benefits overrated?

[origenx]

Are Taijiquan's health (or longevity) benefits perhaps overrated?

I mean, here's some very famous Taijiquan-style founders and lineage holders and their approximate lifespans:

Yang Lu-Chan ~73
Wu Yu-Hsiang ~68
Sun Lu-Tang ~70
Wu Chien-Chuan ~72
Yang Cheng-Fu ~53

I wouldn't consider any of these guys particularly long-lived. But maybe they added more "life to their years" than years to their lives? In other words, never got sick much or spend their last days dying in agony of a terminal illness?

Otherwise, strictly for health, might one be better off simply engaging in some non-martial qigong or herbal practices? I mean, honestly, in today's world, the bigger threats are more health and environmental, than hand-to-hand combative, in nature.

[dre_doggX]

something to think about.

Andre Lashley

[RAF]

That's a real eye opener. However, I thought about that issue after reading Tim Cartmel's book on Xing Yi Qi Gong. Many of the practitioners cited in the text lived well into their 80s and 90s.

The best explanation I heard from a well informed source is that those you cited are a small sample of high level practitioners. In the West, we never hear of the high level, less than famous practitioners. According to my source who is connected into the Taji practitioners of Yang style in China, there are many high level practitioners who never made it to the public forum but lived long and productive lives.

Be interesting piece of research for some upcoming sociologist and/or epidemiologist. Any takes

[EARTH DRAGON]

again as raf said I think your p[lacing judgement on only a small few, I once trained with a famous hung gar master ting fong wong, and although he was a master he smoked and drank a lot. So the pointI trying to make is just because you practise Tai Chi you must live Tai Chi to reap the benifeits. One can be a tai chi master but if his lifestyle does not coincide with his exsistence then it is counter productive. However somne masters in my lineage lived well into their 100's

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Braden]

You can't measure the health benefits in years like that. If you're involved in good internal style practice, you should be feeling health benefits very early on. People who are not involved in such practice talk alot about the health benefits, but don't understand them at all. It's not a magic elixir that turns you into an immortal, and invulnerable to any affliction; it's a practice that lets you understand and relate better to your body. The health benefits that spring directly from that are remarkable, and must be experienced to be understood.

[Fu-Pow]

I believe the only conclusive study on Taiji and health (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure Braden will disagree anyways) is the one that showed that older people who practice Taiji are much less likely than others to fall and break their hip.

Like someone pointed out, health is more than just how you excercise ie Taiji. You've got diet, lifestyle, enviromental effects, cardiovascular fitness, to think about too. If you get out every day and get some excercise via Taiji or Hung Gar or ballet or jogging or whatever you are probably doing better than 9 out of 10 americans.

Peace

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Zhin]

What was the average life expectancy for people at that time?


Japan currently has the highest life expectancy for men in the world at 76. (Kind of amazing I might add, considering the level of smoking and drinking going on). In the 1800's to early 1900's in china, my guess is the life expectancy for men was averaging 50 years old.

Mah Liu Liang lived til he was 98, and his wife died when she was 96.

[kungfu cowboy]

With all the smoking and drinking in Japan, new figures will be calculated. 76 is hardly old anyway. Nothing compares to geologic time, and I for one am looking forward to as short an old elderly existence as possible. Yuck.

[Anthroman]

Just remember that average life expectancy is a tricky number. Its skewed heavily by the fact that in most industrial nations, such as japan, infant mortality has greatly decreased.
Also as far as this question is concerned I'd be more interested in looking at quality of these peoples years then just quantity alone.
Anthroman

[Repulsive Monkey]

the age thing is not enough evidence to say that the health benefits are over-rated. However someone like Yang Lu-chen who inaugurated Yang family Taiji could of maybe shown a few more years maybe. However again as stated 73 back in the 19th century in Henan provice probably was seen as old, and its the quality of life too don't forget. Yang Cheng-fu, his grandson, died in his early 50's and was known to be indulgent in food, drink and women yet his skills (eventually!) were of a high level yet towards his 50's his health did decline. As one modern day living Master though, Tung Tsai Liang who by his own admission drank himself to near death up to his mid forties, yet by taking up Taiji under Prof.Cheng Man-ching turned his health around, and is still alive and practicing at 101 years old.

[patriot]

Don't forget Genetics is the main determinant of longevity (http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/08/27/longevity.participants/index.html)

Tai Chi cannot alter your genetic makeup.

[HuangKaiVun]

My paternal grandmother was so unathletic and so undertrained that she had trouble walking in her 60s.

At the recommendation of her doctors, she joined the Taijiquan park classes in Tainan.

She lived into her 80s and her health improved greatly.

[Repulsive Monkey]

would not be seen as the main ingredient to longevity. In Chinese Medicine one's Jing would highlight the initial foundation in life as to potential quality of health, but even with that there are many Master's whose initial Jing was weak yet through constant practise maintained long fruitful lives.

[origenx]

And off on a related tangent - why don't we just throw Bruce Lee in there at 32!!!

I always wondered how a TCM would have diagnosed his fainting spells and ultimate demise... Obviously, Western medicine came up far short in giving him a clean bill of health.

[patriot]

YCF practised Tai Chi at a very young age and died at 53, as already mentioned.

The 2 sons of the great Chen Fake died in their 50's or younger.

If these great masters can't prolong their lives with Tai Chi, how can novices like you and I?

[wu_de36]

some things you just can't beat. death is among those. tai chi might be good for you, but if a brain tumor is in the cards, what can you do?

not to mention the other countless environmental and hereditary factors.

Just out of curiousity, how did Wang Shu Jin die?
He was pretty "unhealthy" by Western standards.

[JerryLove]

Actually, Scientists thing there are narrowing down the gene (it's in Chromosome 4) or genes responsable for unusual longevity.

Centurians (people living to 100) tend to run in families and all be of similar genelogical descent (European descent), so it's Genetic.

The best we can do, it seems, is try to make sure we live to *our* max age (which may be 80), and to try to stay healthy throughout.

[Nexus]

Quality is more important then Quantity in my opinion. Would you rather have ONE "100" dollar bill or 50 "1" dollar bills!

Ok ok, so that comparison is not exactly the same but its not as if the taijiquan is taking years off of your life. I believe its the quality of the life that improves. I have fellow practioners in taijiquan who haven't had a cold or flu in 10 years of practice and one of them if I remember correctly had constant allergy problems and was frequently sick.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[crumble]

"The best we can do, it seems, is try to make sure we live to *our* max age (which may be 80), and to try to stay healthy throughout."

Agreed.

There is a big difference between being alive and living. By being physically active, the quality of your life is usually higher -- but it isn't some magic elixer like someone said. It isn't a guarantee: you can also wear out your body prematurely, injure yourself, etc.

That said, a lot of these martial arts experts were active right until the day they died. They could kick your ass at 60, 70, 80... They lived fully and then they died completely! They didn't spend years and years in some nursing home limbo, being alive but not living.

People want to belive that martial arts (esp. internal ones) are going to postpone death. Even "masters" can convince themselves of this, like one 80 year old guy a friend told me about who talked about how full and dark his hair was, as proof of the health benefits of taiji -- and then he died. He was buried with a full head of dark hair.

70-80 years is what most of us got. What you do with it is up to you... and there are LOTS of things you could be doing! Martial arts is just one of them and people should take responsibility for their decision. :D

-crumble

[mliddament]

At the start of the 1900s average life expectency in China was just over 30 years.

I would guess the majority of the people named by the original poster did well for their times.

[kungfu cowboy]

Reality is El-weird-O. Is Charles Nelson Reilly still kicking?

[GLW]

But the question is what did they die of...

For example, I am not sure what Yang Chengfu died of but it sounds a lot like dysentery or something equally nasty.

At the same time, you had smallpox, hepatitis, yellow fever, scarlet fever, plague, and countless other quite natural biological disasters.

These types of illnesses, when they hit, take out entire villages...starting with the weak ones first and eventually taking out those who are stronger.

Then you have things like starvation, food poisoning, wars, etc...

So, dying at 53 in the 1930's during a tumultuous period of China's history is not nearly as remarkable even for a martial arts master as living through it.

You can't say much either way. It is like the long distance runner who a few years ago died at around 52...of a heart attack. Many said "See, he ran and touted the positive effects of running on life expectancy...and he still died at 52."

However, in his family, there was not a single male who had ever lived beyond 42. His own father had died at around 40...so in that light, his lifetyle probably gave him 10 more years. They were 10 100% healthy years and when he had the attack...it was instanteous.

You just can't say.

[Ky-Fi]

Yes, Taiji, qigong, excercise, meditation, good diet, etc.---those things help you make the most of what you have to work with, but WHAT you have to work with is largely due to genetics.

[dre_doggX]

Its good that tai chi can make you stronger
Chen Fake and Chen Wan Ting and many other masters were known for have incredible strength in their old age. but still I think that it would be better if martial arts would add years to you life.
I think Gichin Funakoshi of Shotokan karate got sick one night died at 82. But was still very strong the day before.

Andre Lashley

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Just because you train internal martial arts doesn't mean that the rest of your lifestyle doesn't matter. Yang Chengfu was an overweight heavy-eating heavy-drinking diabetic. Small wonder he expired.

Yang Luchan was ancient during a time that saw 10's of millions of Chinese dying from disease, starvation and endemic warfare, not to mention opium addiction. A man of 73 in Europe of the time would have been venerable. At the time, infant mortality was very high, but lifespan was still very low on average.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Repulsive Monkey]

I thought this thread was to do with Tai Chi Masters and their examples of the health benefits of Tai Chi? So did someone mention Bruce Lee? Bar an intial outset in life where he was taught basics in Tai Chi he rejeceted the internal Martail arts pretty much so his health matters are purely down to the benefits of the arts he chose to concentrate on, mainly Wing Chung and on into JKD. It was quoted by a friend of his and now a recognised Tai Chi master that Bruce said he didn't have the time or patience for it.

[Repulsive Monkey]

you can use the word genetics if you like, but I prefer to view the basis of all constitutional energy in the body (i.e. the foundation of the body) as being (Pre-natal)Jing. For example some would say that body deformities would be classified as this and that strain of genetic deformity, where as TCM would say that it is purely Kidney Jing Deficiency (by and large). Jing is viewed as the basic raw energy which is refined into Qi and then further into Shen, whereas genes are recognized as the DNA and RNA cellular informational blue-prints which classify the body components. One might say that is the quality of Jing which determines whether or not genetic deformities take place in the body. Thus rendering Jing as the original foundational source of health in the body, possibly?

[grounded]

for me at least the point is not how long you live but how well you live. Taiji makes one centered and focused. Who cares if you live longer? Practicing Taiji to prolong life is like practicing Shao-lin to kick somebody's ass. You can do it sure, but this is not the purpose of the art.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I totally concur with you but I was just delving into a specific area about Genetics and Jing, thats all, a subtle fine point but by no means the most overriding pricincple i.e. quality of health.

[Nexus]

I think we have seen more opinions in this thread than any substantial facts regarding taiji and its benefits upon longevity. Although it is agreed upon by most practioners that it enhances the quality of life, that really isn't the question here. It would be great if it enhanced the quantity with that, but lets take a look at how it actually does do that...

If before you begin doing taiji, your body is imbalanced, potential energy issues are taking place, for instance the meridians are closing off with age, those that coresspond with maybe the liver and the kidneys. So, with your average american eating habits of McDonalds and excessive drinking/smoking your heart/lungs/kidneys/liver begin to deteriorate and there is no pathways for healing energy to reach those organs in the most natural of ways so they continue to degrade.

Had you done taiji, those meridians would have openened, allowing healing energy to access the organs naturally and efficiently without blockages which hinder the healing progress. Maybe this is why you see some taiji practitioners who used to have allergies, yearly flu, bronchitis and even asmtha have things to say like, 'I haven't had the flu in 8 years.' or 'My asmtha is no longer a problem after just 3 years of taiji!' etc etc.

So in the sense that these dangers could potentially kill you later in life such as having asthma, hence bad longs, and as meridians close off with age, that gets worse and you possibly die from it.

As the natural healthy state of the body improves so does the longevity. It's plain and simple in front of the nose of any practioner who has witnessed improved health from taijiquan.

Happy practicing to all of you, make a resolution for a day this week to do an extra 30 minutes :)

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, My Grand Mother lived a HARD working life raiseing 3 sons 1 natural daughter and 1 step daughter from my Grand Fathers late wife. She ate a typical Italian diet consisting of many fruits and Veggies her whole life, avoided doctors almost till her death. She worked when duty called, rested when she was tired, and enjoyed the company of her family untill stricken with Altzimers. She NEVER execised, and infact despised it. She veiwed it as "Un cultured" and infact encouraged her children to persue more "Scholarly" activitys, My one uncle ended up working on the space shuttle. I think he designed some sort of adhesive used in the heat shields or something.

She died AT THE AGE OF NINETY SIX!!!

My Grand father smoked like a Chimney, died young, mid 60's.

My uncle, rasied in the US, has had heart problems since he was 40. He grew up on fast food burgers and lives working a desk job researching and expanding his "mind"(education).

My mom, same thing, only it was colon cancer.

My other uncle, Liver problems, it almost killed him. He drank like a fish.

My oldest uncle, other than being over wieght, is healty as a horse. He does not work as hard as my Grand MA, but eats like she did, and enjoyes the company of family the same way.

My step Aunt, same thing. Healthy as a horse, out lives my Grand Father by more than a decade (He smoked like a Chimney). She also eats a traditional fruit and veggie Italian diet. Doc reacently said she'd bury us all.

Where did the Ice Cream come in? My Grand Parents ran an Italian Ice Cream store in Chicago. They worked it untill the neiborhood went bad, then they retired and enjoyed life.

In conclusion, those members of my family that avoid drinking, smoking and american food, and took it easy when they could and worked hard only when nessasary, live long and healthy, those that follow American health and eating customs got miserably SICK and/or died early.

If you ask me, forget Taji, and get involved with traditional Italian Food, especially Italian Ice Cream!!!!

Royal Dragon

Ps, for those seeking the secret to long life, I have my Grand Fathers secret Ice Cream float recipy!!!! It'l Co YA, but worth it!!!


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[origenx]

nexus - and this is just a shot in the dark here, but what if in addition to opening up your meridian blockages, you're also exhausting your supply of jing (qi) thru excessive training and fa-jings, etc?

In other words, it's like by clearing your pipes and increasing your flow and usage of water, you're also draining the water tower faster...?

Royal Dragon - Amen on the ice cream - I'll be ****ed but I almost have to say that's one vice worth shaving a few years off my life for!

[unclaimed effort]

My grandfather practices Tai Chi, yet he smokes.

He is in his late 90s and is still doing good.

I'm guessing that health doesn't have to do with longevity. Probably depends on fate.

-------------------------
What is a tree without it's roots? What is a martial art without its basics?

[JerryLove]

Also I'd like to point out two major issues.

1. I like what parcticing Taiji does for me *right now*. I like the way it makes me feel. It is part of the reason that I maintained lung capacity thoughout my bone-marrow transplant and has been an activity I love during my recovery (when I am not pushing myself out of frustration for endurance lost).

2. Taiji, and most similar activity, helps promote coordination, balance, circulation, muscle and bone density. This is pretty importnant in old age where many people's bones become brittle, their muscular padding disappears and their balance fails (borken hip anyone).

[prana]

Origenx

Proper flow of Qi means your internal organs work in unison. And hence your body is healthier. By opening up the meridians, the Jing doesn flow out. If anything, a Qi Gung practioner is able to hold the 'Jing' once he/she is excels in it.

With regards to life spans, some yogins believe that one breaths less frequently and hence prolongs life. Although other factors such a kammic forces etc govern life span too.Definintely, the mind is less 'monkey' when one breathes calmly...

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[origenx]

prana - yes, but what about when u "fajing" - aren't u potentially drawing from your reserves of qi and projecting it outward? Or even any simple physical movement theoretically uses qi, right? I mean, the more you drive your car, the faster you run out of gas?

Maybe the question is, are you drawing or replenishing the qi from the environment, or from your own reserves? And if you inadvertantly draw from your own reserves, might you be then depleting your batteries and thus shortening your "battery-life"? Or is there even such a distinction? Just asking questions here...

[Nexus]

Origenx. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? You could argue that all day, that fa-jing drains your energy etc etc. Doesn't mean anything, and considering taijiquan masters are some of the most energetic people you will ever meet it seems to be a rather empty concept. Beyond that, it has no direct correlation with when you die, I mean, there are americans who have sex 2,3,4,5 times a day and still live long lives. They are using much more energy in a given day then someone executing fa-jing movements. The reason of standing post is to build up qi so that one has the energy stored for such.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[prana]

origenx

I havent done much fighting, and as far as using the technique called 'fajing' I am not sure what is involved, I suspect it is not a projection of Jing itself, but winds. Perhaps I shant comment on this subject since I do not know what 'fajing' really involves.

However it may be noteworthy that internal winds, are sufficient in most laypersons only to survive, think, make, live etc. It is like many of us, we spend before we have enough saved... :)
However a Tai-Chi practisioner seems to cultivate from the environment, the sun, whatever, much like filling the bank and reducing spending on unneeded objects (mindless chattering, busying).

So spending some money in his reserves, so long as he is wise, will still have some excess.... unlike lay persons. We usualyl spend until we have none, only to cultivate more by eating, resting etc...

hahaha that is gotta be the lousiest, most wrathful explaination ever. But I hope you can see wot I am getting at.

"Either your two side channels are open, and your central channel closed, or
your central channel open, and your two side channels closed.
These are the only alternatives..."
Lama Yeshe quoting Lama Tsongkhapa

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> . One might say that is the quality of Jing which determines whether or not genetic deformities take place in the body. Thus rendering Jing as the original foundational source of health in the body, possibly? [/quote]

You might say this is true of some genetic defects like diabetes. There is a 40% penetrance as they say. Meaning that among identical twins (people with identical DNA) 40% have diabetes and 60% don't. However, for some diseases the penetrance is 100%. You will get the disease and it is highly heritable. I happen to work with one such disease called Ataxia Teleangiectsasia. If you inherit 2 bad copies, your fu(ked. There's no hocus pocus in that.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[PlasticSquirrel]

taijiquan is an excellent way to re-balance the energy in your body. it builds energy and strengthens the dan tian, as well. this is the health benefit. this is internal development at the physical level.

the people that are being talked about should not be talked about. just because their taiji was good, does that mean that they can live any sort of lifestyle they want to and expect to be very old? it's silly to think that way. for a daoist, however, who seeks to reach immortality, taijiquan can be seen as a supplementary exercise for balancing out yin and yang in the body.

zhang san-feng lived to be much older than any other famous taijiquan practitioners. do you know what made zhang live to be so much older than any other taijiquan practitioners, though? he was a daoist. he followed the dao, and used taijiquan to aid him in his path. taijiquan was not his path, however. it was only an aid. this is why practicing an aid to a path will not extend your lifespan beyond a normal person's, in most cases. zhang's body was not from this world. he was, and is, an immortal.

on the physical level, though, taijiquan will make us healthy. this is not to say that you will live for a long time, though.

as for the genetics, and modern science, i thought that we were above all that. "modern" physical science is primitive, at best. doctors in the u.s. have no idea about energy. this is pitiful. energy is the building blocks of our universe, and they don't know anything about it, except that it is "spontaneous." we can send a man to the moon, but we can't understand what the chinese have for thousands of years.

in china, they have been doing experiments with qi using western science since the 1970's. they have been successful, with the energy being mostly identifiable as different types of electromagnetic energy. people have been treated of fatal conditions all over the world, and many incredible feats have been presented. even now, doctors still know nothing about energy. it's such a pitiful, ignorant condition that it's embarassing.

sorry about the rant. :(

[taijiquan_student]

Not to be rude, because I agree with you about the lifestyle thing, but Zhang San Feng has no (proven) connection to taijiquan what-so-ever. His tomb just calls him a Daoist immortal, and says nothing about taijiquan. Chen Wang Ting developed Taiji, and at least 1/3 of the original chen style postures come directly from General Qi Ji Guan's manual on martial arts.
Taiji IS a path--that of a martial art. Taiji is not "daoist practice", per se, just influenced by some general philosophical concepts(Yin/Yang, for instance).

[Nexus]

Taiji allows you to link mind-body where many spiritual paths are centered on the mind. What many fail to see in the spiritual ideas is in order to relax, one must be physically and spiritually centered. Even the buddha I believe said, "relax into your being" hence saying settle into your center (dan tien) not your forhead (mind).

Taiji allows you to know yourself in terms of the body and in some aspects the mind and in knowing yourself you are following a path of sorts. There is no "Daoist" or "Zen", those are just pointers to help you go in the right direction, the discovery is of course in your understandings.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[Royal Dragon]

"Chen Wang Ting developed Taiji, and at least 1/3 of the original chen style postures come directly from General Qi Ji Guan's manual on martial arts."

Let's not forget the influance of Tai Tzu Quan, Hong Quan and the Cannon Fist style on Chen Taji. To say Chen Zhan Feng had no influance is a bit arrogant. It could be said he "Likely" had no influance, but to claim an absoulute is wrong.

We have documentation (I belive) showing the connection between Chen Wang Ting and Qi Jiquang, right? Every one tells this story. But how do you know Chen Zhan Feng's teachings were NOT involved also? Qi Jiquang is said to have been a Tai Tzu practitioner, and included our 32 moves in his book "Summary of Boxing" (also known by several other similar names).

I have also heard he TRAINED Chen Wang Ting in the Tai Tzu system. Tai TZu has an internal division based in partial training our founder had from Chen Po, founder of Li Hu, Ba Fa. I also once found a source (internet) stateing Chen Zhan Feng was a 4th generation desciple of Chen Po's teachings. The Chao family apparently had ties with Chen Po's desciples on down tha ages as well.

I think it is interesting that both Chao, Kuang Yin AND Chen Zhan Feng were students of Chen Po's teachings, and BOTH were said to have created systems used in the foundation of Chen style Taji.

I know I'm getting a bit off topic here, but that has me thinking Chen Po IS the real founder of Taji Quan. What does every one else think?

RD


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[RAF]

Royal Dragon:

Your points are interesting and I agree with most of what you say. However, it is necessary to differentiate between speculation and evidence supporting a position.

There very well may be a connection between taiji and Chang San-feng but the burden of proof lies with those making the assertion and you can see where that goes by taking a look at the discussions on the board.

A recent article in the Tai Chi Magazine tried to make that connection again but there doesn't seem to any verifiable documentation other than speculation and hypothesis.

I whole heartidly agree with the connection of Tai Tzu Chuan and Chen taijiquan however, others go as far as to question the relationship of Chen taijiquan to Yang taijiquan. Some even say Chen's taijiquan isn't even taiji (of course IMHO I disagree).

What a historical mess? Heh?

[Rory]

you need to remember every one smoked opium and the cleanis of the food may have not been good tai chi doesnt stop the effects of bad food and bad lungs from smoking. now remember yang cheng fu was a heavy drinker. but dont forget wutunan he died at 107!! he taught jet li at 99 years old tell he was 107 thats pretty amazing. my teahcers teacher is 90 years old and is quick and limber as any 30 year old. he still has a class and still teaches at that age. today are water is cleaner and we now more about nutrition and so it is very possible that the food and nutrition may be better these days.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, as far as nutrition goes, it COULD be argued that they had BETTER nutrition in the past since they had not invented food additives yet. Also, many traditional diets WERE infact just about perfect. Mostly fruits and Veggie's. Meats back then were NOT full of steroids and genetically enginered growth hormons.

From what I have seen the hunter gatherer societys had it even better, because they lived on fruits and veggies for thier first few meals of the day, and ate thier meats late in the day, after hard exertion (caused from hunting it) when a high protine intake would be most benifficial.
Plus, a few hours of native dance every other night or so put them in MUCH greater cardiovascular condition than the "Caveman" of today.

I submit that the average life span of 30! claimed by science today is NOT only false, but pure proaganda desgined to foster greater support FOR modern science. Based on what I have seen, in theory the ancient societys (especially hunter gatherers) should have been much healthier, stronger and LONGER lived than we are today.

Yes, they had many bad diseases, but we have Aids, Cancer, Asthma and cardio vascular diease, all things said to be CAUSED by modern living.

As I said before, my Grandmother lived a LONG and healthy life up untill her last year or so. She avoided doctors like the plague, and had little in the way of modern convineances her whole life. She live much the same as her ancestors have for hundreds of years. The ONLY difference, was the use of a car instead of a horse. BUT, she STILL walked to the grocery store and took care of all her needs on foot. the car was rarely used, and then mostly for a Sunday drive. She even walked to church, in ALL types of weather.

She died at the age of 96. So don't tell me nutrition is better now or the average life span was only 30 before modern science came along, I don't buy it!!! At best, we know WHY things work the way they do, but little has been done to improve.

RD


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[PingAnTu]

Internal martial arts is infected with the old Daoist illusion of immortality. It's funny. All of these masters of the internal elixer are dead now. It's not just Taiji, it's also Bagua and Xingyi. Unfortunately, one of BK Franzis's top students died of a heart attack on an airplane in middle age.

The real value of internal martial arts is in the quality of life that it gives you coupled with the martial prowess. It's fun. It's all about exploration. It's all about enjoying the learning process and swimming in the brilliant martial principles. If you practice diligently, can it stave off earlier problems that would have killed you eventually? I think so. But at the end of the day, when your number is called... You're dead. Period. Same with Qigong. Same with Zen. Same with Yoga. Same with... well, everything.

"When I fought the foreign boxer in Kyoto, I jumped up and punched him in the face. This is effective against people who are taller than you." -- Motobu Choki

[Braden]

RD - you don't have to speculate. There's still a number of true hunter-gatherer societies, and plenty of third-world cultures without the taint of modern science in their food. You can visit them yourself and determine their nutritional level.

Personally, I'll take trace levels of hormones over trichinosis ten times out of ten.

[Royal Dragon]

Man, As soon as I can I'm gettin myself pushed out of a plane and dumped into the heart of Borneo!!! I hear the native girls are hotties!!!

Seriously though, that kind of thing appeals to me anyway.


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[origenx]

nexus, plasticsquirrel - So, maybe Daoism and qigong are the real keys to longevity, not taijiquan. Or perhaps a balance of the two. Because there is a difference. Taijiquan does involve the expenditure of energy, at least from a sheer physical standpoint. Whereas Daoism and qigong are more focused on the collection and absorption of energy. Although, I'm sure there's some crossover in there. So perhaps you need both - to intake energy and expel toxins/wastes.

Point is, much of the longevity claims are anecdotal, and there are many examples both one way or the other. What they really need to do is take some large samples and then draw some statistical correlations, if any. And being careful to identify and isolate ALL factors, like diet, lifestyle, other practices (e.g. - Daoism, qigong, etc.), relationships, family genetic history, etc...

Is it even possible to really extend a possibly genetically-predetermined life? Or to just live a healthier life? I don't think this question has really been scientifically answered here yet

[Royal Dragon]

If you are genetically able to live 80 years, and your DON'T practice Taoist longevity methods or Taji, you'll only get 70 years out of your life, and the end ones will be bad.

If you DO Taoist practices and Taji, you get all 80 years and die easy.

Does that sum it up?

Royal Dragon

"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[JerryLove]

Master Ma [Hey, he taught my teacher] 98, Wu Ying Hua 91 Wu Tu Nan 105 Yang Yu Ting 95, Jung Tzan Fung 99, Chang Ting Chen 101.

Source "Wu Style Taiji - A history from China to the United States" by Li Li-Qun, appeared in "Kungfu - Wushu Quogong Mellinium edition" Jan 2000 pg 104

[Rory]

wutunan died at 107

[Repulsive Monkey]

all 107 years did he exist for. I've got a video of him doing form and an interview with him too. Look liked a decent fellow.

[origenx]

Another good question is what exactly did all these masters, especially some of the shorter-lived ones I had mentioned in my initial post, die of? What exactly were their causes of death?

Anybody know?

[RAF]

Perhaps it isn't taiji itself that affects the aging and health process bur rather it is simply a form of exercise one can consistently play throughout their life.

Interesting article below documents the reversal of aging through exercies:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010917/hl/youth_1.html

Maybe we put too high expectations on taiji?

[JerryLove]

No, I agree with you. The big thing about Taiji (health wise) is that it is a low impact workout good for resperation, bloodflow, and most other things any good low-impact workout is good for.

In marticular Taiji is nice in that it works the entire body without being stressfull to the body (Chen aside). Taiji also has the meditative effects built in.

But I don't see, healthwise, that it's something magical or overly special... Except I never had any luck fighting with my water polo skills.

[toddbringewatt]

Overrated by whom?

Five examples are not enough.

Also, this aside, no one can overlook the importance of diet, air quality and water quality. EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!

Maybe the guys you listed were chain smoking Twinkie freaks.

;)

may the force be with you

[RAF]

On second thought, maybe there is something special about taijiquan besides fighting:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010924/hl/taichi_1.html

Maybe the accumulated wisdom of an older culture still has something to teach us about aging gracefully.

Too bad they aren't doing a study on bagua or xing yi.

[GeneChing]

1,400 residents pass 100-year milestone (http://ecns.cn/2014/09-30/136856.shtml)
2014-09-30 09:08 Shanghai Daily Web Editor: Qian Ruisha

http://ecns.cn/2014/09-30/U579P886T1D136856F12DT20140930090829.JPG
Shanghai's oldest resident, 115-year-old Li Suqing (center), poses for a photograph at home yesterday, flanked by her daughter, Tian Yulan, 74, and son-in-law, Gong Jingfa, 76. — Zhang Suoqing

Shanghai now has more than 1,400 centenarians, with the city's oldest resident 115 years old.

This is thanks to healthy lifestyles, a sound medical system and care from their families, the Shanghai Gerontological Society said yesterday.

A total of 1,407 centenarians were registered in the city at the end of 2013, with 365 added as of June 30 this year, according to the society.

The society said it did not have a precise figure for the number of centenarians who have died this year, but that Shanghai has at least 1,400 centenarians.

While Shanghai's residents who reach the 100 milestone may differ in backgrounds, many share similarities, according to the society.

Most are broad-minded, even-tempered, not fussy about their food, don't smoke, get a good night's sleep and exercise regularly, according to society officials.

Typically, they live in harmonious relations with their families and are well looked after, said the society.

Genes are also a factor, it added.

Jing'an, Xuhui and Huangpu districts boast the largest number of centenarians per 100,000 people in the city.

"Downtown areas like Jing'an have higher percentages of centenarians because of better medical treatment, living conditions and diet, which offset factors like pollution," said Sun Pengbiao, secretary general of the society.

There were 9.8 centenarians per 100,000 people in Shanghai at the end of 2013, up 1 from 2012.

The city's oldest resident is 115-year-old Li Suqing. She lives with one of her daughters, a former nursing worker who cares for her, and son-in-law.

She has topped the list of "10 Shanghai Female Longevity Stars" for seven years.

Li, who likes playing with her 6-year-old great-grandson and watching television with him, swears by milk, eggs and walnut powder in her daily diet.

Meanwhile, Xu Renqing, a mere stripling at 104 years old, was named one of 10 Shanghai Male Longevity Stars at an awards ceremony.

"I have a good mindset and I am very happy today to be here, thanks to the government's care," the Xuhui resident said.

The former dye factory worker liked trading in shares and was still speculating on the stock market when he was 100.

Shanghai has one centenarian couple, Xu Yunxiang, 101, and Zhao Damei, 103, who live in a care home in the Pudong New Area.

They met when Xu was only 10 and married 11 years later.

The average life expectancy of Shanghainese is just under 82 years and six months — the highest in China.

Wang Chuanfu, former director of the Huadong Hospital and an expert in gerontology, gave tips on achieving longevity.

Seniors should eat mild foods — lots of vegetables and not too much salt, and take exercise every day, with 30 minutes of walking, tai chi or swimming recommended, said Wang.

Smoking is a no-no, while a little wine is recommended, as is traditional Chinese medicine for conditioning.

An optimistic attitude and regular routine are the most important factors, Wang said. a little wine...hmmm, need to add that. ;)

[Fa Xing]

Just supplement with resveratrol, it will be even healthier.

[GeneChing]

HBD Genevieve Byars!


Tai Chi helping woman reach 100th birthday (http://www.13newsnow.com/news/local/tai-chi-helping-woman-reach-100-birthday/311818102)
100-year-old dancer practices Tai Chi to stay mobile. (August 30, 2016)

John Bartell, KXTV 8:08 PM. EST August 30, 2016

http://www.13newsnow.com/img/resize/content.abc10.com/photo/2016/08/30/100%20year%20old_1472604099375_5885358_ver1.0.jpg? preset=534-401

An ancient form of martial arts could be the key to a long life.

Its working for a Sacramento woman who is turning 100 years old next week. She contributes her new found mobility to Tai Chi.

"I feel great! It makes me feel young and I am good at it," said Genevieve Byars.

Byars lost her mobility more than a decade ago.

"I used to be a real good dancer," Byars recalled.

In the 1950's she was a regular dancing audience member on the Lawrence Welk Show.

"I met a lot of boyfriends then, but they dint treat me right," Byars said. "Some got fresh!"

Byars' son Donny McCollum got her started on Tai Chi 4 years ago. Now she takes regular walks around the house. McCollum says his mom is getting so good at Tai Chi that he set up a punching bag for her.

Her birthday is on Monday. The goal is to celebrate by going dancing.

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=yELxioHtVNE

Molecular level? Really? :rolleyes:

Thread: New Years Resolutions (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?8152-New-Years-Resolutions)
Thread: Taijiquan's health (or longevity) benefits overrated? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?4411-Taijiquan-s-health-(or-longevity)-benefits-overrated)

[Jimbo]

IMO, Taiji, taught properly, can be a real benefit to many people, especially older and those who are recovering from injuries or health issues, etc.

That said, in Taiwan, the LEAST healthy teachers and masters I saw were the pure (mostly Yang style) Taiji/internal guys. They didn't seem to do any other exercise, and also many had poor health habits, i.e., smoking, poor diets, etc. The middle-aged and up ones I saw (which were many) were all way out of shape. They seemed to feel that the 'chi/qi' would miraculously cancel out all those bad habits, if they even considered them bad habits. Some of them would even say that sweating from exercising is bad for you. It's really only an excuse for laziness and lack of personal responsibility for one's own health, while also claiming to have special powers and abilities above everyone else.

Among the healthiest old masters I saw over there was one old guy who had done bodybuilding and some 'Shaolin' when he was young in China. This guy vigorously walked everywhere he went, and when he'd socialize with some of the Taiji teachers, he literally walked circles around them, and his eyes were sharper and he had greater mental acuity than they did. Another guy was an old, former Peking/Beijing opera performer who still pracriced splits, high leg holding and forward handsprings. And neither of these guys had the pear-shaped "Buddha belly" that typified the typical Taiji teachers', who always claimed the fat was a sign of their highly-developed 'chi/qi'.

[GeneChing]

Woman credits good genes and Tai chi for longevity on her 100th birthday (https://nbc16.com/news/local/woman-credits-good-genes-and-tai-chi-for-longevity-on-her-100th-birthday)
by Kassandra Gutierrez Friday, November 1st 2019

http://static-31.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/dbd7239f-5397-4277-b5c4-1294a6fc7047-large16x9_file2.jpeg?1572640000430

Ethel Allen turned 100 on November 1, 2019. (SBG)

SPRINGFIELD, Ore. - Ethel Allen turned 100 on November 1, 2019.

She says she doesn’t know how to feel about achieving a triple-digit age but says, “I will survive.”

Family visited her from Nashville, Tenn., for the milestone birthday.

“I wouldn’t miss it for the world," her granddaughter Holly said Friday.

Ethel credits her good genes for her longevity: Her mother lived until 84 and her father until 95.

But she says Tai chi and her healthy lifestyle have also helped.

Ethel has been doing Tai chi for about 20 years, the last 15 years of those at Sacred Hearth Medical Center at RiverBend.

She also gets a daily phone call from a friend at 9:30 every morning and one from her son-in-law at 8:30 every evening just to make sure she is OK.

THREADS
Give it up to the elderly!!!!! (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?57037-Give-it-up-to-the-elderly!!!!!)
Taijiquan's health (or longevity) benefits overrated? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?4411-Taijiquan-s-health-(or-longevity)-benefits-overrated)

[GeneChing]

China’s ageing population prompts plan to deal with looming silver shock (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3039064/chinas-ageing-population-prompts-plan-deal-looming-silver-shock)
Five-point strategy unveiled in first policy paper aimed at the most daunting social and political challenge of coming decades
Estimates say over-60s will make up one third of the population by 2050
Phoebe Zhang
Published: 7:00am, 24 Nov, 2019

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/d8/images/methode/2019/11/23/e837146e-0dd2-11ea-afcd-7b308be3ba45_image_hires_182112.JPG?itok=Ok0F9C4J&v=1574504479
Beijing has called for an active response to China’s looming demographic crisis, with one third of its population estimated to be over 60 by 2050. Photo: AFP

China has outlined a five-point strategy for managing its ageing population in its first policy paper to tackle the country’s most daunting social and political challenges of the coming decades.
The paper, jointly issued by the Communist Party’s Central Committee and the State Council, acknowledged that the country faced a serious ageing problem but said China must “find its own way out, and that means taking a path with Chinese characteristics”.
The document does not give a specific estimate of China’s elderly population but China’s National Community on Ageing has estimated that, by 2050, those aged over 60 could reach 487 million, about one third of the population.
According to the paper, which was published by official news agency Xinhua on Thursday, Beijing is calling for an active response to the ageing problem with short-term, medium-term and long-term goals, to be achieved by 2022, 2035 and 2050 respectively.
These years correspond to China’s goals for achieving socialist modernisation – with attaining common prosperity for the general population one of the yardsticks for measuring success.
Specifically, the paper said China should deal with the ageing problem through increased social investment and input, building a high quality workforce, better health care and retirement services, use of advanced and innovative technologies, and enhanced legal and social protections.
Lu Jiehua, a demographics professor and expert for the National Development and Reform Commission, told Beijing News that possible measures included building a bigger pension pool by investing in lower risk but secure projects, strengthening the quality of the Chinese workforce, and growing the “silver hair” industry.

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/d8/images/methode/2019/11/23/9e9ad70a-0dd2-11ea-afcd-7b308be3ba45_1320x770_182112.JPG
Residents practice tai chi at one of Beijing’s luxury retirement communities. Photo: EPA-EFE

Demographers have warned that direct consequences of China’s ageing population include a shrinking workforce and a weakening of the country’s economic strength.
Yi Fuxian, a researcher on China’s ageing population at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in the US, noted that the demographic shift could undermine China’s ability to compete with the US in the long term.
“In the past it has been a young China catching up with a middle-aged US, that’s why [China] has managed to close the gap between the two countries rather quickly. Now it’s going to be an old China trying to chase a middle-aged US, and the gap [between the two countries] is likely to get wider and wider. China’s ageing population can become an obstacle for the country trying to overtake the US,” he said.
Other social pressures include China’s pension shortfall as the aged population grows, and pressure on the medical system and elderly care. As a result of China’s now-scrapped one-child policy, which was first introduced in 1979 to artificially slow population growth, young people in China are now faced with caring for two parents and four grandparents, with no siblings to share the burden.
The one-child policy has also exacerbated the ageing problem with a declining fertility rate. The government abandoned the policy in 2016 to allow couples to have two children, but so far the change has proven ineffective in boosting the birth rate.
In January, the National Bureau of Statistics said the total number of births fell to 15.2 million in 2018 – or 1.6 children per woman – a drop of nearly 12 per cent nationally compared with the previous year, a number which is disputed by demographers like Yi.
He claims the Chinese government has misrepresented the actual birth rate to gloss over the ramifications of the one-child policy. According to his own calculations, the actual fertility rate averaged 1.18 children per woman between 2010 and 2018, a lower level than Japan, suggesting China’s ageing problem could be more serious than its eastern neighbour’s.
Huang Wenzheng, a senior researcher at the Beijing-based think tank, Centre for China and Globalisation, said the low fertility rate was China’s biggest challenge.
“Of course, there are many things you can do to remedy an ageing population, but to solve it at the root, there need to be [more] newborns. It is ridiculous to talk about ageing when birth control has not been entirely scrapped,” he said.
Huang, however, questioned how soon major policy changes would occur if the government had not yet fully recognised the gravity of the issue.
Liang Zhongtang, a demographer from the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, said it would be difficult to resolve the challenges solely by relying on government edicts and planning, as critical services such as homes for the elderly and medical services, as well as new and innovative technologies, could only take off with the support of market forces.
“Developed countries do not do these things because of government planning,” Liang said. “They rely on the market to resolve their ageing crises, and we are not doing enough in this regard.”

That doesn't look like tai chi being practiced at 'one of Beijing’s luxury retirement communities'. That looks like qigong. :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

106-year-old in Salt Lake City still feisty, sharp in daily exercise routine (https://abc7.com/health/106-year-old-still-feisty-sharp-in-daily-exercise-routine/5745168/)

At age 106, Mary Kawakami of Salt Lake City stays sharp and feisty with a daily exercise routine designed by her 75-year-old son.

By ABC7.com staff
Tuesday, December 10, 2019 4:24PM
SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (KABC) -- So what's your excuse?

You may need to find a new reason to skip exercising after watching a feisty 106-year-old perform her workout routine with her 75-year-old son.

Mary Kawakami is a workout diva, starting every day with a routine designed by her son Paul.

He's helped her out for more than 20 years.

They absolutely adore each other and their workout is like a comedy routine.

"The reason why she lived so long is she's mean," Paul jokes.

Mary embraces her centenarian status.

"How old am I? 1-0-6. Will be 107 in two weeks. Basically I am old!" she says.

And she's not slowing down. Her lungs are still strong and her heart rate is excellent.

And Paul - who is a Tai Chi instructor - says his mom is the best. Whatever he comes up with she is willing to try.


THREADS
Give it up to the elderly!!!!! (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?57037-Give-it-up-to-the-elderly!!!!!)
Taijiquan's health (or longevity) benefits overrated? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?4411-Taijiquan-s-health-(or-longevity)-benefits-overrated)