A young Yu Hai performs his mantis form

[mickey]

Greetings,

Since Yu Hai originated this form, it is really nice to see him perform it in his prime. He has very strong intention and his form is more martial than those who merely copied his moves in later years. I remember sitting through Nan Bei Shaolin twice just to see him perform this form.

Found on Youtube, enjoy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2FkXxSLmQ&mode=related&search=


mickey

[yu shan]

Mickey, can you tell me more about Yu Hai. I have enjoyed this version of Mantis for a long time now. His martial intent is evident.

[ironfenix]

Yu Hai starred in the Shaolin Temple movies with Jet Li and Yu Cheng Hui. Great Mantis Guy (TJMH i think) as I really like the way he moves. In the Shaolin Temple movie, when the monks are doing that group training sequence, he is doing Zhai Yao Yi Lu in the background at a walk through pace. I guess the director said, "alright we just need some extra footage, so just do what forms you like". I think he also did some chen with Hong Jun Sheng but I may be mistaken.

[EarthDragon]

Looks very Wushu to me.... care to comment?

[mickey]

Greetings,


yu shan:

I do not know much about Yu Hai off hand. I do remember that he was listed in the mantis cave a few years ago. I remember reading in Black Belt magazine that he developed this form with emphasis on a particular mantis move, that of tun tu (swallow and spit or regurgitate). It was my hope that he would develop a series of forms, a la tan tui, that would serve to provide the practitioner with a real working knowledge of the praying mantis style, without having to learn a crapload of forms. This was before I ever heard of the essential forms of the this style. With regard to this form, I remember reading that it was not too well received by the traditional mantis practitioners on the Mainland.

I think he represents the first generation of "wushu" trained athletes in Mainland China.

If memory serves correctly he specialized in two weapons: the monk spade and the staff.


mickey

[mickey]

Here's more info on Yu Hai....


http://www.brns.com/hkactors/pages/page47.html



mickey

[Redfish]

Yu Hai is in the Seven Star lineage under Lin Jing Shan and a kung fu brother of Yu Tian Cheng, Yu Tian Lu, Zhong Lian Bao ... along the same generation as these teachers.

He is famous for working with the early creation of modern wushu on the mantis forms.

I think it's North and South Shaolin, the third one, where Yu Hai and Jet Li do their ultra low mantis shuffling around the bad guy at the end, complete with insect eye imitations.

I like Jet Li but watching the first Shaolin Temple movie, a load of dancing, on the actual site, including the tower forest. Like some kind of blasphemy. Shouldn't have been allowed.

[Shaolinlueb]

my sifu learned this form from hu janqiang who was also in that movie, along with kids from shaolin and shaolin north and south. the form is really nice. a lot of those older wushu players know traditional and studied traditional. my kung fu brother knows this form too, i never had the chance to learn it.

edit*
i just uploaded a monkey staff video i had from i think the same video.

[Redfish]

Watched the clip. Hard to see if it's really Yu Hai or not. That's beside the point. It's quite painful to think that the word "Mantis", meaning Mantis Kung Fu, can be tagged onto that contemporary dance routine.

[Shaolinlueb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjZVdixW8UM

here is the monkey clip. i talked about

if you look at a lot of hte old early mid 80's and 70's wushu, it was all traditional. another player who isnt educated :rolleyes: a lot of those original wushu players had heavy and extensive training in traditional too. :eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

Yu Hai starred in the Shaolin Temple movies with Jet Li and Yu Cheng Hui. Great Mantis Guy (TJMH i think) as I really like the way he moves. In the Shaolin Temple movie, when the monks are doing that group training sequence, he is doing Zhai Yao Yi Lu in the background at a walk through pace. I guess the director said, "alright we just need some extra footage, so just do what forms you like". I think he also did some chen with Hong Jun Sheng but I may be mistaken.


the director of the movie is a cool guy. his taichi is good. and he can sink some 3's in basketball too.

[GeneChing]

Yu Hai is on the cover of the next issue, our Jan/Feb 2007 issue, which should be hitting the newsstands in the next week or so. Before you judge him as 'just contemporary wushu' you should read my cover story on him. There's a lot more to Yu Hai. There's a lot more to any of the founding fathers of wushu. All the first generation people were brought up traditionally and then selected to create this new art. They all have deep roots. Among them, Yu Hai is particularly interesting because he ended up rejecting the whole wushu scene for almost a decade. Despite being a major engineer of wushu, many of his more practical innovations have been discarded. Now in his fifties, he's returned to his traditional practice. You'll have to check out the article.

[jigahus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjZVdixW8UM

here is the monkey clip. i talked about

if you look at a lot of hte old early mid 80's and 70's wushu, it was all traditional. another player who isnt educated :rolleyes: a lot of those original wushu players had heavy and extensive training in traditional too. :eek:


This actually looks very impressive with the moves he made...traditional or not. Plus wushu ain't all that bad...just look at the ladies.

[Shaolinlueb]

This actually looks very impressive with the moves he made...traditional or not. Plus wushu ain't all that bad...just look at the ladies.

werd. oh yes the ladies ;) we all luv em :P

[bungbukuen]

Very entertaining to watch, but also worlds apart from the perspective of traditional Seven Star execution. Shaolinlueb, what system of mantis do you study?

[Redfish]

Gene

Clearly if Yu Hai was a an early creator of wushu then it goes that he knew traditional of some kind as the modern wushu didn't exist before it was created. I made no comment on Yu Hai's general achievements.

What I did say, and do say is that the video performance above is a contemporary dance routine and nothing to do with any kung fu that came before it except to borrow some flavour.

If Lueb is referring to this when he says it's traditional and I'm not 'educated' then he is sorely mistaken. There is nothing traditional about any modern wushu.

In fact, we only have to use the work 'traditional' to differentiate because modern wushu - the performance art - is something else.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I agree that there is a difference in appearance between what Yu Hai created and traditional Praying Mantis.

The difference that I see is in the way that he works the "plum flower." He keeps it on a horizontal axis which is a departure from what I am used to seeing in traditional styles. Yet, it is clear he could go vertical at any point.


mickey

[Shaolinlueb]

Gene

Clearly if Yu Hai was a an early creator of wushu then it goes that he knew traditional of some kind as the modern wushu didn't exist before it was created. I made no comment on Yu Hai's general achievements.

What I did say, and do say is that the video performance above is a contemporary dance routine and nothing to do with any kung fu that came before it except to borrow some flavour.

If Lueb is referring to this when he says it's traditional and I'm not 'educated' then he is sorely mistaken. There is nothing traditional about any modern wushu.

In fact, we only have to use the work 'traditional' to differentiate because modern wushu - the performance art - is something else.

being nothing traditional about modern wushu? where did it come from? hmm let see, not gymnastics, traditional arts.....

maybe now currently its all gymnastics (if you saw the last china games you will know what i mean.) but in the 70's, 80's, and even early 90's it still had the martial aspect of it.

what a lot of "traditional" people dont seem to understand it was put together for competition, not fighting. there still is application in moves.

are you just one of the traditional guys who is jealous of their skill? i see a lot of modern wushu people train harder then the traditional guys and move better then the traditional guys do.

yeah the mantis is obviously too fast to be traditional. but it does have its roots. there is application to his moves if you break down speed. there its performed as a dance.

my sifu performed that form in a traditional mantis ring at the famous baltimore tournament back in the day and slowed it down and showed more power and won a gold medal. also had a famous chinese mantis master or two congratulate him and how good his mantis was. yet its not even his style, its just a "wushu" form with no application and is a dance routine. :rolleyes:

*edit
man im treading on dangerous ground with this post. i should quit while im ahead.

[Redfish]

Lueb, you are only treading on dangerous ground in that your entire post there was nonsense.

Where did it come from, what was it's background? ... gymnastics. Modern Wushu was created from the floor/rhythm gymnastics model.

Why was it created - for competition? It was created by a government bent on remoulding society in it's ideological image. There was no intention to improve or modify 'kung fu' for reasons such as standardisation - only to replace it.

Traditional should be slow? I've no idea what you're talking about as I have to practice all my forms with as much speed, power and definition as possible.

Jealous? I do often admire that physical prowess of some modern wushu players, I spent a lot of time here around the ex-Shanghai team captain Alvin Guo Liang. But that's the same admiration I feel looking at an olympic gymnast or an NBA basketball player - appreciating athletecism. The skill of modern wushu players is not applicable to kung fu skills of fighting. As a whole army of MMA guys will repeat in other forums: just repeating punch-movements in a performance does not confer fighting skills.

If that exact same form was really performed at a 'traditional' comp and was congratulated then the people watching had no idea about Mantis or were just being nice.

[Shaolinlueb]

Lueb, you are only treading on dangerous ground in that your entire post there was nonsense.

Where did it come from, what was it's background? ... gymnastics. Modern Wushu was created from the floor/rhythm gymnastics model.

Why was it created - for competition? It was created by a government bent on remoulding society in it's ideological image. There was no intention to improve or modify 'kung fu' for reasons such as standardisation - only to replace it.

Traditional should be slow? I've no idea what you're talking about as I have to practice all my forms with as much speed, power and definition as possible.

Jealous? I do often admire that physical prowess of some modern wushu players, I spent a lot of time here around the ex-Shanghai team captain Alvin Guo Liang. But that's the same admiration I feel looking at an olympic gymnast or an NBA basketball player - appreciating athletecism. The skill of modern wushu players is not applicable to kung fu skills of fighting. As a whole army of MMA guys will repeat in other forums: just repeating punch-movements in a performance does not confer fighting skills.

If that exact same form was really performed at a 'traditional' comp and was congratulated then the people watching had no idea about Mantis or were just being nice.


nonsense, no.

traditional shoul;d be slow? no, that mantis was way fast, i have never seen traditional that fast.

made for competition?

am i gonna leave this alone now? yes

later

[bungbukuen]

Shaolinliueb,

What kind of mantis do you study?

Ciao,
BBK

[B-Rad]

Awesome form :) I believe Yu Hui is a 7* mantis master. I've got the magazine with the article on how he created the form, etc. but haven't read it yet. Skimmed it a bit though... saw he's a Christian :eek: Might not have anything to do with his martial arts, but I found it surprising :)

Is that video really Yu Hui? It doesn't really look like him to me...

[ironfenix]

Gene,
Awesome article! Yu Hai rocks! Do you know who he trained Chen Tai ji with?

israel

[Yao Sing]

That's Yu Hai, he's just a lot younger than we're all used to seeing him. Like in Shaolin Temple.

Yu Shan, that's who Tu learned the set from.

That Monkey Stick is from the same tape, I have a copy of it, I think it was from 1974. Don't know that I care much for it though. First time I saw Ding Wei perform it at Splendid China I was impressed but after seeing it quite a few times I see it's more Monkey than fighting.

[Shaolinlueb]

Shaolinliueb,

What kind of mantis do you study?

Ciao,
BBK

honestly? im not gonna make up any lies, i dont study mantis. only time i saw a lot of mantis perform was at this years taiji legacy.

my teacher did wah lum for a bit but doesnt teach it at all. and the only mantis i know that we do regularly is that form slowed down to a traditional pace, i hope you dont flame me now for saying traditional is slow. its not, its jsut not as fgast as the master in the movie. concentrating more on power and clear moves. if i could get the video of my sifu doing it up on youtube i would put it up.

[Shaolinlueb]

That's Yu Hai, he's just a lot younger than we're all used to seeing him. Like in Shaolin Temple.

Yu Shan, that's who Tu learned the set from.

That Monkey Stick is from the same tape, I have a copy of it, I think it was from 1974. Don't know that I care much for it though. First time I saw Ding Wei perform it at Splendid China I was impressed but after seeing it quite a few times I see it's more Monkey than fighting.


it is. master hu, now pushing 50 is still performing that form with flipping and everything. he said he'll be able to flip but not walk lol. he immitates the monkey well still.

the wushu monkey i admit doesnt have a lot of fighting in it at all. its more performance looking like the monkey. i still like it :)

[bungbukuen]

I should be honest with you too Shaolinliueb. It was pretty obvious from your posts that you didnt have a clue about traditional mantis. Do you train any traditional Eagle Claw or is that also modern?

BBK

[Shaolinlueb]

I should be honest with you too Shaolinliueb. It was pretty obvious from your posts that you didnt have a clue about traditional mantis. Do you train any traditional Eagle Claw or is that also modern?

BBK

all traditional eagle claw. i know the modern wushu form, i dont like it very much.

heck i may not have a clue about traditional mantis, but i know my kung fu brothers have beaten out a lot of traditional mantis guys with that form in mantis divisions back in the baltimore tourney days. ;)

[yu shan]

Not to nitpick, if you say this form beat out all the traditional Mantis competitors in the tournament, then I question the judging in that ring. Flash should not beat out a technically sound and powerful traditional form. I am revealing personal feelings here, but I cannot stand it when you get these flashy wushu looking forms played in the Mantis Division. In my opinion they need to be in the wushu division and stay out of the traditional area.

[Yao Sing]

Yu Shan brings up a point that's something of a pet peeve of my own. The state of competitions today is the result (I prefer the word "fault") of the judges.

As long as they give high scores for non-martial related "flash" all the competitors are going to juice up their forms with gymnastics and other crap to win.

Essentially the judges are saying "this is good Kung Fu" and in reality it isn't (unless you adhere strictly to the definition of the word although the popular usage relates to fighting skill).

I'm sure a lot of peeps here judge, or have in the past. What are your thoughts? Are we going to reward GymKata and lose the essence of the Martial Arts?

[B-Rad]

Depends on how broad a range of styles the division is. Judges in a "northern kungfu" or just "soft style" division (if in one of those open karate tournaments), aren't going to know whether every form is a traditional form and a good judge is going to base their scores on the quality of the person doing the form rather than the choreography of the form itself. If a guy has better power, intent, speed, stance work, transitions, etc. than another person then it shouldn't matter whether the form is 10 or 100 years old. The modern mantis form is a heck of a lot less flashy than many other forms out there. Less jumping around than some traditional styles.

If there's a modern wushu division that allows non chang quan/nan quan forms, or if it's a traditional mantis only division then of course it's a different story since it's a specific modern wushu competition form. Though, it's hard to get upset when the average Wah Lum competition form I've seen had more non traditional flash added in than Yui Hai's form. Same goes for a number of other traditionalists out there.

[Shaolinlueb]

Depends on how broad a range of styles the division is. Judges in a "northern kungfu" or just "soft style" division (if in one of those open karate tournaments), aren't going to know whether every form is a traditional form and a good judge is going to base their scores on the quality of the person doing the form rather than the choreography of the form itself. If a guy has better power, intent, speed, stance work, transitions, etc. than another person then it shouldn't matter whether the form is 10 or 100 years old. The modern mantis form is a heck of a lot less flashy than many other forms out there. Less jumping around than some traditional styles.

If there's a modern wushu division that allows non chang quan/nan quan forms, or if it's a traditional mantis only division then of course it's a different story since it's a specific modern wushu competition form. Though, it's hard to get upset when the average Wah Lum competition form I've seen had more non traditional flash added in than Yui Hai's form. Same goes for a number of other traditionalists out there.


i read the other replies on the page. if anyone knows the reputation of the baltimore tournament back in teh day. it was bigger then tjl and sometimes funner. dont be mad, just train harder. the person may be way better. like i said i need to find some clips of it performed. once i do get one i will post it up. all i can find is clips of this mantis form performed flashy,m so i can see where you guys are coming from.

i love traditional mantis. i was watching the 7* guys in awe at tjl. im not trying to put down mantis style at all. eagle claw and mantis share some same grabs and such. i think this is what i was coming off as., and i dont want too. one day i want to learn some traditional 7*.

[bungbukuen]

Shaolinliueb,

I talked to you a couple years back over PM and you told me that your school did not teach much traditional (only bits and pieces), but that you were trying to get your teacher to start teaching more. Sounded to me like you yourself were teaching purely modern. What is the actual story with you and your school?

BBK

[GeneChing]

The Big Monk of Shaolin Temple: Mantis Grandmaster Yu Hai (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=688) from our Jan Feb 2007 issue (ttp://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=687).

[Shaolinlueb]

Shaolinliueb,

I talked to you a couple years back over PM and you told me that your school did not teach much traditional (only bits and pieces), but that you were trying to get your teacher to start teaching more. Sounded to me like you yourself were teaching purely modern. What is the actual story with you and your school?

BBK

bbk i remember, i was a wee lad and confused back then. i had a conversation with my sifu about it actually. we are a traditional school. we dont do any modern wushu for hand sets other then 1st gen eagle, mantis, snake, and drunken. all our weapons are influenced by the first generation wushu forms that came out. they arent persay the actual ones. i tried to find videos of them and i can't. I know my sifu learned them from Hu Jianqiang who was in the first 3 shaolin temple movies with jet li. he was an old school wushu player too and learned the mantis form directly from yu hai.
one staff form i know is an old chin woo form, i saw the lee koon hung people do the same staff and asked joe keit about it. we do some of the wushu basics,i see a lot of traditional schools doing them these days cause well, they're good. all our hand sets are either traditional long fist, traditional shaolin, or traditional eagle claw. and i can trace them back if needed to provide proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-7lYXhJbg around 7:20 i perform and then my kung fu brother performs.

[MasterKiller]

I've seen Lueby's Eagle Claw at Taiji Legacy. It's good stuff.

[GeneChing]

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