B.S. in the martial arts world.

[The Xia]

We all know it's there. On this forum, many of us have pointed out an endless list of crap that is present in the martial arts world. I think we all understand that B.S. isn't a good thing. Here's the kicker, what should good martial artists do about it? In the China of old, challenges and random violence prevented most B.S.ers from surviving. However, we are in a different era. In the modern world, there must be something that can be done to put a stop to the bull. In my opinion, a board licensing martial arts teachers would be an awful idea for many reasons. Perhaps the solution lays in how good martial artists respond to B.S. on sight. Instead of being polite, perhaps good martial artists should call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that going out and starting fights is the solution, but when you see B.S. at a tournament or demo, wouldn't pointing it out do some good? If this is done on a massive scale, B.S.ers would have little leg to stand on.

[SanHeChuan]

B.S. only matters to those who can tell the difference.

So the solution would be to educate everyone else, but they don't care.

[SPJ]

"True gold will stand the trial of the fire."

"The paper may not cover the fire."

false claims will not last long.

etc etc.

:)

[sunfist]

Spar. Subscribe to KFM.

[Fu-Pow]

I think most of the problem is that you have a lot of talkers and salesman in martial arts now as opposed to people that are actually DOING martial arts.

Martial arts is part of physical culture....keyword....PHYSICAL!

Disputes in martial arts should be decided in a physical way, not with debate or posturing (BTW, that doesn't always mean trying to kill each other).

Really, even having a kung fu forum is pretty retarded. It's impossible to communicatre much about martial arts through words...you have to FEEL martial arts to know if a practitioner is any good.

So really this forum and others like it exacerbate the already existing problem as much as anything.

If anything this forum should exist as place to exchange training methodologies, not as a place to decide who's skills are superior....by talking about it!!!

[David Jamieson]

Be the change in the world you want to see.

[jera]

I remeber reading a artical on the First American master of Karate. Sorry i dont remember his name so lets call him Mike.

At first Mike was mad at the fact that once he started getting publicity of bringing Karate to America, A bunch of "self-proclaimed masters" poped up out of know where. So when Mike was in one of his final lessons with his Teacher, They started talking about these "masters." Mikes's Teacher tells him to take alot of pictures with his arms by his head and with his eyes bulging, while calling it 'the long lost Iguana Style'. So Mike takes his teacher's Advice and soon after he published the pictures no less than 8 people claimed to be the "True Iguana Style masters."

As far as I know Mike never confronted these "masters" thinking that they brought their own shame apon them.

[Shaolin Wookie]

And I see it's about time for me to make my exit......:D

[YouKnowWho]

this forum should exist as place to exchange training methodologies, not as a place to decide who's skills are superior....by talking about it!!!
No matter how the thread started, it always ends with "MMA is better than CMA."

[SPJ]

MMA as different ranges or techniques. long, short, close and ground.

or standup strikes, grappling and ground.

or 4 technical categories:

1. strikes (punches and kicks, Da Ti)

2. grappling (Qin Na)

3. throw (Shuai)

4. trip to fall (Die).

MMA as mixing styles.

the most famous ones:

1. Song first emperor mixing all the good styles at the time and called it Tai Tzu Chang Quan.

2. Mantis is mixing of how many styles together.

---

so mixing stuffs is a NEW idea.

OH I SEE.

:)

[MonkeyKingUSA]

We all know it's there. On this forum, many of us have pointed out an endless list of crap that is present in the martial arts world. I think we all understand that B.S. isn't a good thing. Here's the kicker, what should good martial artists do about it? In the China of old, challenges and random violence prevented most B.S.ers from surviving. However, we are in a different era. In the modern world, there must be something that can be done to put a stop to the bull. In my opinion, a board licensing martial arts teachers would be an awful idea for many reasons. Perhaps the solution lays in how good martial artists respond to B.S. on sight. Instead of being polite, perhaps good martial artists should call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that going out and starting fights is the solution, but when you see B.S. at a tournament or demo, wouldn't pointing it out do some good? If this is done on a massive scale, B.S.ers would have little leg to stand on.


What "good martial artist" would be qualified to do this?
Ok, if you have thirty years in a style you could probably correct others in the same style. Maybe. I say maybe because instructors often teach differently at the end of their career than they do at they beginning. An early student of an instructor might do things differently than a student who learned at the end of an instructors career. So which would you say is wrong and should be corrected?
Have you ever seen Bucksam Kong, Kwong Wing Lam and Chiu Chi Ling do Hung Gar? I have seen the same form done differently by each instructor. Which one should be corrected? Each has their own flavor and sometimes each emphasize something that makes the form different. There is nothing wrong with that.
Too many people already try to set themselves up as experts. I don't think we should encourage it.
We see this at tournaments. An instructor who has spent twenty to forty years in MA does a form that is judged by black belts who are not as old as the instructor has been in MA. Or try performing for those of other arts. In the 70's I once did a monkey form at a TKD tourney in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. One judge gave me the highest score, another gave me the lowest score, the other judges varied in the middle. After the tourney was over I asked the judges how I could improve my performance to get a higher score. They flat out told me they had no idea how to judge Kung Fu, let alone a monkey style of Kung Fu. At least they had the humility to admit it.
Though I am familiar with some Northern and Southern styles, you certainly would not want me deciding if your Ba Gua or Hsing I was BS. I have never done these styles.

My advice is, if you want to judge whether someone else's style is BS or not, you better have studied in the same school under the same instructor. What you think is BS may just be a lack in your own understanding and experience!

[Knifefighter]

MMA as different ranges or techniques. long, short, close and ground.

or standup strikes, grappling and ground.

or 4 technical categories:

1. strikes (punches and kicks, Da Ti)

2. grappling (Qin Na)

3. throw (Shuai)

4. trip to fall (Die).
Add groundfighting and you have a pretty complete system.




so mixing stuffs is a NEW idea.
The best systems have always come from mixutures.

[YiLiQuan1]

We all know it's there.

And it's entirely too prevalent, with some of the worst offenders putting down roots in our own CMA community (not that they're not elsewhere, but the CMA frauds are some of the more flamboyant).


On this forum, many of us have pointed out an endless list of crap that is present in the martial arts world. I think we all understand that B.S. isn't a good thing.

If it was a good thing, it wouldn't be called "BS," right? It'd be called "examples of high quality performance" or something to that effect...


Here's the kicker, what should good martial artists do about it?

Give absolutely no tolerance, polite or otherwise, to such behavior. Zero tolerance, period. Political correctness, nods to "courtesy," and other such excuses for failing to maintain standards must be eradicated entirely. Worrying about whether someone else's tender sensitivities were violated must take a distant back seat to upholding the firm foundation of our community.


In the China of old, challenges and random violence prevented most B.S.ers from surviving. However, we are in a different era. In the modern world, there must be something that can be done to put a stop to the bull.

One of the main reasons I maintain a presence on Bullshido is because, though I'm not a MMAist, their approach is the most honest. Sure, they can devolve into just so much ass-slapping, juvenile horseplay, but at the same time they maintain a very simple, very direct method by which pretenders may prove their claims of superiority - bring it to the mat.

The old fashioned "dojo busting" that characterized community "self-policing" once upon a time only has to change in the manner of its initiation. Instead of crashing into a school, screaming out litanies of hate directed at the teacher's fraud and his students' gullibility, instead invite them to a cooperative training event (a la "Throwdown") and allow them public visibility wherein to demonstrate their alleged skills... With the spotlight on them, they'll be hard-pressed to explain away their inability to "walk the walk."


In my opinion, a board licensing martial arts teachers would be an awful idea for many reasons.

First, how to determine who sits on the board. Second, how to determine the methods of evaluation. Third, how to determine what constitutes "authentic." Fourth, how to determine the manner in which to prevent board members from ever, ever degrading their objectivity. That's just off the top of my head...


Perhaps the solution lays in how good martial artists respond to B.S. on sight. Instead of being polite, perhaps good martial artists should call a spade a spade.

I have a dear friend, a senior student of Taika Seiyu Oyata, who has been banned from many an internet forum for just such an approach. He's a genuinely friendly, courteous, polite man in person, unless you're a fraud going out of your way to perpetuate lies. Then he'll call you out, and continue to press you for proof. And in true "warrior style," he won't relent until he's won. His method should be emulated by many, many more people...


I'm not saying that going out and starting fights is the solution, but when you see B.S. at a tournament or demo, wouldn't pointing it out do some good? If this is done on a massive scale, B.S.ers would have little leg to stand on.

Certainly. It's hard going at first, but there are more people that feel the same way than most folks know. There's a growing movement up here in the NW among TMAists to do just that...

[sunfist]

Give absolutely no tolerance, polite or otherwise, to such behavior. Zero tolerance, period. Political correctness, nods to "courtesy," and other such excuses for failing to maintain standards must be eradicated entirely. Worrying about whether someone else's tender sensitivities were violated must take a distant back seat to upholding the firm foundation of our community.

The old fashioned "dojo busting" that characterized community "self-policing" once upon a time only has to change in the manner of its initiation. Instead of crashing into a school, screaming out litanies of hate directed at the teacher's fraud and his students' gullibility, instead invite them to a cooperative training event (a la "Throwdown") and allow them public visibility wherein to demonstrate their alleged skills... With the spotlight on them, they'll be hard-pressed to explain away their inability to "walk the walk."

This method is fine... assuming you are right. The problems that arise are severalfold, firstly it promotes an extremely closed mindset combined with an 'us against them' mentality. This creates a community widely opposed to radical ideas, which is what got us into this mess in the first place.

The ring serves as a nice filter for those who espouse pretty dances as combat, but it isnt a magical ring that solves all of our problems. Come to think of it, neither was that ring in that movie about rings and finding them with the little gay people, but I digress. The rings simulates some aspects of combat, two kinds of people get in it: people who are able to protect themselves and people too stupid to know they probably shouldnt.

The former, while using it as a tool to hone and test their skills, should and usually do understand that the format is limited. We have people like Geoff Thompson who are dealing with combat as a far more complete entity, from awareness and pre emptive striking through to the psychological aftereffects, and drawn from extensive real world experience. Its new ideas like these that will once again revolutionalise our view of combat, and as always, like the Gracies did in the 90s, they will come in under the radar, from areas of training we are not familiar with.

The latter, are inclined to post on internet forums a lot.

Sparring is a very valuable part of any serious martial artists training, but dont trade one kind of ignorance for another. He with big balls never have empty cup.

[YiLiQuan1]

This method is fine... assuming you are right.

I am. Always. Why is it you don't know and recognize this? ;)


The problems that arise are severalfold, firstly it promotes an extremely closed mindset combined with an 'us against them' mentality.

Unfortunately, both my upbringing (my dad was a police officer) and my current vocation (soldier-paralegal) lend a "black and white" perspective on this issue. I'm not inclined toward tree-hugging, sharing-and-caring, or other general fluffiness when confronted by some hack that thinks he really can move me from across the room with his chi (or alternately that his inability is caused by my having had my toes in the wrong position... :rolleyes: ).

When confronted with this level of silliness, I refuse to play the part of an enabler in any way, shape or form.


This creates a community widely opposed to radical ideas, which is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Not quite. Let's not confuse radical with prove-able. If you say you can fly, turn invisible, or knock me out without touching me, then show me (and by "you" I don't mean you, specifically). Prove it. Right now, right here, on the mat. Otherwise, get back in your hole and pull the dirt in on top of yourself... :D


The ring serves as a nice filter for those who espouse pretty dances as combat, but it isnt a magical ring that solves all of our problems.

We are talking about martial arts, right? Not maritalarts, or meditational arts? But that "fists, feet, elbows, knees" kind of thing? Beating your opponent into submission when confronted with the likely possibility of personal injury?

It seems at least you and I are looking at different aspects of what constitutes "BS" in the martial arts world... I'd offer that there are far fewer who'd argue the "BS" nature of philosophical and/or ethical guides accompanying fighting arts than there are that'd argue the validity of a given fighting method (which is what I'm focusing on).


The rings simulates some aspects of combat, two kinds of people get in it: people who are able to protect themselves and people too stupid to know they probably shouldnt.

A couple things -

1) I don't believe martial arts were ever intended to be used against other, well-trained, martial artists. I believe they were intended to be that "force multiplier" that made one person far better able to defend himself than another.

2) The ring wasn't mentioned (at least by me). I said "the mat," meaning people get together with other people of like interest and actually put their technique to the test. That doesn't mean endless G&P sessions, just an honest evaluation of technique to determine what works and what is just so much made-up fantasy and self-delusion.

3) That latter category needs the mat, the ring, and any other realistic presentation far more than the former category. If it hurts their feelings that they've been had, tough. Wisdom usually carries a price...


Sparring is a very valuable part of any serious martial artists training, but dont trade one kind of ignorance for another. He with big balls never have empty cup.

Please, don't assume that because I endorse crossing arms with someone who doesn't immediately acquiesce to my delicate touch that I'm a dim-witted brawler. I'm not endorsing ignorance, I'm endorsing not falling into the trap of fortune cookie sayings, silk pajamas, and myths of white-haired mystical masters conveying unbroken lineages of super-lethal caresses...

I'm saying that those who make unbelievable, outrageous claims be publicly taken to task without the fear of censure due to "unfriendly" treatment. I'm saying that when people are shown to be perpetuating a myth (or worse yet, a fraud), they be exposed for what they are.

Even Musashi recognized in his era that there were frauds, flakes, and liars teaching martial arts.

[sunfist]

I remember the days when bullshido taught people not to make strawman arguments... or at least i think i do.

[SifuAbel]

Nah, they just threw the word around a lot. Sounds kewl and all, but not much substance there. That place never outgrew its junior high school mentality.

[SifuAbel]

No matter how the thread started, it always ends with "MMA is better than CMA."


................and he opens the door..................

[omarthefish]

Add groundfighting and you have a pretty complete system.


1. Groundfighting is already included in that list.

2. What was posted was not a system at all but rather a method of categorizing techniques. It's completely irrelevant to any particular system. It was just an old way of dividing aspects of unarmed combat.

1. strikes (punches and kicks, Da Ti)

2. grappling (Qin Na)

3. throw (Shuai)

4. trip to fall (Die).

Groundfighting falls 100% under that category of qin na. Standup grappling is number 3, shuai. Your implied criticism of most CMA styles not including is relevant but not to that list. There is n-o-t-h-i-n-g specifically standup about the term "qina na". If you are imobilizing or bending joints out of their natural range of motion, that is qin na by definition. ;)

[Hitman]

We all know it's there. On this forum, many of us have pointed out an endless list of crap that is present in the martial arts world. I think we all understand that B.S. isn't a good thing. Here's the kicker, what should good martial artists do about it? In the China of old, challenges and random violence prevented most B.S.ers from surviving. However, we are in a different era. In the modern world, there must be something that can be done to put a stop to the bull. In my opinion, a board licensing martial arts teachers would be an awful idea for many reasons. Perhaps the solution lays in how good martial artists respond to B.S. on sight. Instead of being polite, perhaps good martial artists should call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that going out and starting fights is the solution, but when you see B.S. at a tournament or demo, wouldn't pointing it out do some good? If this is done on a massive scale, B.S.ers would have little leg to stand on.


Most people will not listen to you, even though what you said is true.
I have told one of my colleagues that our former wing chun master was teaching people rubbish wing chun. He was very surprised and asked me which classes did I attend and I told him. He said that those assistant instructors (master X' students) were good and the stuff worked. He understood the principles of wing chun and could apply it. He was a black belt in karate, before he joined our wing chun organisation.
I told him that I made this conclusion based on the fact that I could not apply a single technique I had learnt in over 160 sparring matches against various style of martial artists. He was very surprised to hear that and told me that perphaps wing chun was not a style for me! I should found another school!
I asked him had he sparred with anyone, since he joine our organisation.
He told me that he had not done it.
I told him that if he had not sparred with anyone, who can hit him back, then how did he know that the stuff we learnt was any use. He did not reply.

Hitman

[bodhitree]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOtNBdACTQI
I am proposing a hijacking of this thread to make it the: link to B.S. in martial arts thread.

[SPJ]

for the fun of it. is that clip saying it is better to ground fight with the dragon with long beak, spike, claws and wings.

or strike from a distance is no good against the beast?

who is at advantage at the ground one with short arms and legs or one with long ones?
--


most b.s is actually from the books and references.

many books are out there. which one is telling you the real deal. maybe not so many of them?

:eek: :D

[Ray Pina]

You can only bull**** yourself and others like you that are also bull****ting themselves. But of course, these people aren't even bull****ting themselves, which is why they know better than to put up.

I know a lot of people who "train", "study," "do" martial arts. I know very few martial artists. Though the number of martial artists that I know has increased now that I train at a place like Renzo Gracies... people who are really serious about learning how to put someone in a very uncomfortable and submissive position, as well a show to get out of it. They do this everyday. Not once or twice a week: everyday.

My challenge now that I'm moving (it's official) is to maintain -- no, actually increase my physical health -- while trying to scrounge up some strangers who'd like to learn so I can stay sharp.