Wingchun structure

[Shadow_warrior8]

What is the right structure? After 5 years or so, I dont know whats the right way to stand. Very much a beginner I guess. LOL. Anyway, looking for some good people to share with me here.

My HK Wingchun Structure taught to me:
1. Kim Sut(knees press in) 2. Lok Ma(knees/stance press down) 3. Ting Yu(pelvic tilt forward) 4. Dung Tao(head suspended by a thread) and down to the ground) 5. Mai Jiang(elbows in)
Toes are in, Kua and pelvic region feels tight though

My Malaysian Wingchun Structure taught to me:
Similar to HK except his is really gripping the floor with his toes(he took off his shoes to show me)- Hence goat gripping stance, Toes are pointing forward
Feel really solid and rooted.

My yiquan stance taught to me:
1. Lift the upper body up like it is held by a clothes hanger and then relax and sink the torso in alignment
2. Head Aligned held by a string vertically
3. Head tilted forward with the nose pointing to the belly button
4. Neck held such that a small ball rest under the chin
5. Shoulder Scapular open- back of shoulders is flat across
6. Arms open as if there are two small balls underneath the arm pits
7. Back Flat with pelvic tilted forward- Whole body structure resting on each body part in alignment
8. Kua Soft
9. Knees Soft
10. Ankles Soft
11. Feet as if stepping on sponges, small creatures can swim underneath
12. Feel the grounding of the feet to the ground, the root penetrate beneath.
13. Weight is 60 back/40 front covering the yongquan
14. Feet as if inner edge of foot nailed to the floor

Important points- Head, Neck, Shoulders, Arms, Spine, Pelvis, Kua, Knees, Ankles, Feet(Up to down should rest as one integrated unit)

Sorry long post. So questions: 1. Toes in? 2. Toes out? 3. Toes gripping?
Been reading about Kenneth Chung and his rooting, grounding, structure. Anyone practicing with him? Will the tenseness of the structure impede chi flow? Its the best reference point I have to what I have been taught in HK styles. Any diffs?

Chu Sau Lei structure seems interesting too. Cant seen to get a pic of how it looks though. Toes in/out? Like Yiquan, soft and relaxed?

I tried just moving my toes from Yiquan to HK stance from toes front to toes in, the pelvic, kua region became really tight, and the pelvic alignment was shifted

So tension or softness? Toes in or toes out? Any reference to the classics and meridiens on this?

Silly questions, but I am just learning to stand again.
Thanks:)

[splinter]

What is the right structure? After 5 years or so, I dont know whats the right way to stand.


Seriously?

You've spent 5 years studying wing chun, and you're wondering about the structure of your stance in that fine of detail?

That worries me.

At this point you should be able to figure it out based on
1. How mobile you are. (You can determine this by checking how many times you get hit when sparring because you couldn't get out of the way quickly enough)
2. How stable you are. (How many times you get knocked over / taken down / pushed around when sparring because you didn't root yourself properly)
And probably a couple of other things I can't think of.

If neither of these things is an issue, then neither is your stance.

Is it common for wing chun students to be worried about this stuff after 5 years of training?

[k gledhill]

# 11 leads me to believe someones smoking some funny stuff lol

toes in to stabilize the hips . stand with one foot forwards slightly bent knees with toes straight and have someone push you from the sides....you will feel unstable at the hip.
turn toe of leading foot in [ turning the hip joint in as thi happens] and hey presto stability when pushed again. dont grip anything , slide like air hockey.
chumkil movements to face the flanking line.
if your being taught to fight in a slt stance , keep looking.
imagine you fighting a bull by counter attacking its charge ...or attacking it from the sides avoiding the horns...hmmm sounds like I'm smoking something now lol.
p.s . dont get wrapped up in the slt for chi development , this is crap, its a simple method to develop certain attributes for fighting. elbows in...all this head alignment can get so invovled you lose sight of the fighting aspect...balance, elbows in, movement, attacking...

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Shadow_warrior8,

If you don't mind my asking, who's your HK WC instructor? I ask because the 5 guidelines you listed is exactly the same that my teacher is using (Ken Chung). I mean most Wing Chun have those principles, so it's nothing new, but I haven't heard those 5, in that order, used outside of our line. It'd be cool to know that another line is using it.

Anyway, as far as the principles go, in my own opinion (and by no means do I speak for anyone else), after having studied with Ken for about 6 years, they are essentially training wheels. At first you rely on them because you have no frame of reference for what structure really means. They are not the reference by themselves (just because you adhere to the 5 principles doesn't mean you'll have structure), but they help the student "find" their structure faster and more consistently. Through the course of training in of the forms, dan chi, lap sau, poon sau, chi sau, dummy, weapons, etc., you develop a "feeling" of what true structure really is. In my experience and from what I observed, if you start off with the five principles you find that feeling faster. If you don't, you find it slower. From the perspective of our Wing Chun training at least. Once you find that feeling, training in the forms, chi sau, dummy, etc., further refines that sense of structure. You get better and better at it.

The goal is the structure, not the training wheels. (Incidently, structure is dynamic, not static, but that is for another discussion). Once you figure out what it is, you can apply it however you wish, within your abilities, under the correct set of circumstances. You don't always have to have knees in to have structure, and having your elbows out don't neccessarily indicate a lack of structure. With the correct teacher and training system, you should be able to find structure with any of the 3 training methods you have listed. (We have other reasons for following the 5 principles, but that's also for another discussion)

Unfortunately, IMO, you will have very little success finding out what structure is on a message board. It's not something that can be communicated very well with words. Even with video, people won't be able to see it unless they know what to look for, and even if they know what to look for, they may not necessarily be able to express it with words. And even if they can express it with words, you (not you you, the generic you) probably won't get it unless you're using the same frame of reference.

Regards,
Alan

[anerlich]

Complicated, isn't it?

I prefer Miyamoto Musashi's guidelines: make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance.

Don't just stand there, do something!

[Zhuge Liang]

Complicated, isn't it?

I prefer Miyamoto Musashi's guidelines: make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance.

Don't just stand there, do something!

As complicated as all that was, I actually agree with you, or Musashi rather. :)

[ftgjr]

It is always a good thing to question your structure. It is easy to get comfortable in a stance that may not be the best one for fighting. Sometimes you need someone to point out what is or isn't right about your stance. After training in Wing Chun for 3 years, I attended a seminar by Robert Chu. He was my Sifus' Sifu 18 years ago. Sigung Chu had changed quite a few things in his Wing Chun training. After that seminar, many of us students realized that our structure wasn't that good and we made some adjustents to our stance and now had emphesized proper alignment and more attention to structure. This not only made us more rooted but helped us generate more power in out techniques.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Thanks for all the replies.

Think I could spend 20 years and still wonder if I had the optimum structure or if my wingchun is good enough. I have this crazy belief, there is one mountain higher than another, so yes I will always be trying to improve to get optimum results, the way the wingchun structure was meant to be in the kuen kuit.

SLT not for chi development? I find that when I do reverse breathing I am able to direct the chi to the arms and legs. Normal breathing allows me to do the microscopic orbit. Maybe I am just hallucinating the chi....Too much dragon tiger gate by Donnie Yen....Hahaha.....I was taught that SLT the second portion is used to develop jing, and that Yip man did the second section for hours.

My instructors, well one of my sigung learned from Leung Shum. One of my sifu is from the Yip Chun lineage. The stance is the same as listed.

Ftgjr, sounds like a good seminar. Is Roberts structure soft like yiquan? Toes in or out? Gonna save up money for Alan Orr's videos. Looks good...
Thank heaps Alan, that was good info on Kenneth Chung.
Hope to meet them someday.

The structure I am trying to learn is one that allows maximum power and flow of chi, fajing, powering my chung choi and other moves. Otherwise, my punches are just flicky using the localised muscles, at best weight shifts. I would use the same natural structure moving or lying down enabling the Yi/Ni tao, in Sil Nim Tao.
Relaxed like Yiquan or Clamped down structures. Kua soft? Tenseness or softness.

If you can take pressure from the front, does the structure hold up when you are pushed from the back? I find I can root forward pressure, but from the back, its harder. Maybe my mind/body link is not strong enough.

Can I test my structure by pushing against the wall or pulling? Shouldnt it work the same for structural test?

[k gledhill]

the SLT is the only time we train to do the strange ' elbow in ' actions of the system slow to build up the endurance to maintain it longer than the next guy who if not has elbows 'out' not good....tan sao , jumsao , etc...all striking pre-position for different gate use...but thats another thread :D

[t_niehoff]

In my view, the idea of developing structure and alignment and things of that nature statically or by themselves is an illusion -- in a fight, you will not have structure and alignment (or the time for structure and alignment), all you will have is the time to (as Andrew N. put so well) "do something". So instead of being concerned with structure and aligment, concern yourself with moving, with mechanics, with *doing* something. No one hits harder than boxers, but they don't spend loads of time "developing structure", they practice hitting and moving, and the "structurre and alignment" comes from that -- not the other way round. Once again, another example of how the theory guys have it ass-backwards. So forget about structure and alignment, they are merely by-products and will come if you are fighting and training to fight.

Terence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"No one hits harder than boxers, but they don't spend loads of time 'developing structure', they practice hitting and moving, and the 'structure and alignment' comes from that -- not the other way round. Once again, another example of how the theory guys have it ass-backwards. So forget about structure and alignment, they are merely by-products and will come if you are fighting and training to fight." (Terence)


***UMM....DON'T THINK SO. Boxers definitely do train structure and alignment. For example - to develop a good straight stiff lead...boxers are often trained in the following manner:

1) Push off the rear leg as you step toward the target.
2) As the lead foot lands - the lead hip turns inward with a crisp twist at the waist.
3) Followed by the lead shoulder turning inward with a crisp snap.
4) Followed by the punch then being released.

That's the sequence. To be practiced hundreds of times against a heavy bag until it's done smoothly and seamlessly.

And until it's done without even having to think anymore about any sequence or structural alignment. The final product is a fast and powerful punch.

[splinter]

"No one hits harder than boxers, but they don't spend loads of time 'developing structure', they practice hitting and moving, and the 'structure and alignment' comes from that -- not the other way round. Once again, another example of how the theory guys have it ass-backwards. So forget about structure and alignment, they are merely by-products and will come if you are fighting and training to fight." (Terence)


***UMM....DON'T THINK SO. Boxers definitely do train structure and alignment. For example - to develop a good straight stiff lead...boxers are often trained in the following manner:

1) Push off the rear leg as you step toward the target.
2) As the lead foot lands - the lead hip turns inward with a crisp twist at the waist.
3) Followed by the lead shoulder turning inward with a crisp snap.
4) Followed by the punch then being released.

That's the sequence. To be practiced hundreds of times against a heavy bag until it's done smoothly and seamlessly.

And until it's done without even having to think anymore about any sequence or structural alignment. The final product is a fast and powerful punch.

Focusing on structure from the perspective you describe is vastly different than standing still, making sure your toes are pointed in the right direction. I understand a total beginner worrying about fine details in static positions, but after 5 years of training, a WC prcticioner should be well beyond that level of training, and focus more on the type of structure training that you're talking about.

[Liddel]

Excuse the cliche....but

Dont think...Feel !

As previously stated... spar and see.
Try each of the elements youve listed and feel which one suits you :rolleyes:

Some good points have been put foward here but in reality your body could be totally different than those offering you advice.

How tall are you ? are you in shape ? do you have any injuries ?

One guy ive sparred with had a very strange natural pose when sparring because he had an abnormally shaped knee from a motorbike accident...

I believe you have to be comfortable first and foremost and perhaps the perfect structure on paper isnt that comfortable for "you" in practice...

Also think about the elements of what your teachers consider 'good stucture' perhaps you dont have to adhere to each verbatim but rather take the underlying reason 'why' and adapt it for yourself - then its your kung fu and not a carbon copy of someone else's style that doesnt maximise 'your' ability.
Think for yourself question authority :cool:

[t_niehoff]

Focusing on structure from the perspective you describe is vastly different than standing still, making sure your toes are pointed in the right direction. I understand a total beginner worrying about fine details in static positions, but after 5 years of training, a WC prcticioner should be well beyond that level of training, and focus more on the type of structure training that you're talking about.

Exactly.

The point I was making is that structure and alignment is a by-product of the *doing* -- in Victor's example, of punching. The feedback comes from the result of the action, the movement, the technique, etc.

And, fwiw, it doesn't matter how many years a person has spent training -- the static posture stuff, the focus on structure and alignment, etc. is poor training at any time.

Terence

[Knifefighter]

boxers are often trained in the following manner:
1) Push off the rear leg as you step toward the target.
2) As the lead foot lands - the lead hip turns inward with a crisp twist at the waist.
3) Followed by the lead shoulder turning inward with a crisp snap.
4) Followed by the punch then being released.
Compare that with the structure listed in the original post. Much simpler with drilling and sparring able to begin much sooner. Further refinements come from the drilling and sparring that follow the original structural development.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Compare that with the structure listed in the original post. Much simpler with drilling and sparring able to begin much sooner. Further refinements come from the drilling and sparring that follow the original structural development.


***AGREED.

Training the basic wing chun static structures are important - but training with movement/sparring is waaaaaay more important...and one's time management needs to be adjusted accordingly.

[t_niehoff]

***AGREED.

Training the basic wing chun static structures are important - but training with movement/sparring is waaaaaay more important...and one's time management needs to be adjusted accordingly.

I don't think training the basic wing chun static structures is important; in fact, I think it is counterproductive in many ways (both physically and mentally). We don't learn or develop dynamic motor skills (in doing something, some action) by practicing being static. Different motor programs. In my view, we simply accept that this is important or valid because that is the way it was taught to us. If you want to learn how to or develop better skill at throwing a ball, for instance -- a dynamic motor activity -- it isn't good training to practice static posture, static alignment, static structure, etc.

Terence

[splinter]

I don't think training the basic wing chun static structures is important; in fact, I think it is counterproductive in many ways (both physically and mentally). We don't learn or develop dynamic motor skills (in doing something, some action) by practicing being static. Different motor programs. In my view, we simply accept that this is important or valid because that is the way it was taught to us. If you want to learn how to or develop better skill at throwing a ball, for instance -- a dynamic motor activity -- it isn't good training to practice static posture, static alignment, static structure, etc.

Terence

I hear what you're saying, but I see sil lum tao as a way for a total beginner to get a handle on the basic hand techniques... Focusing on things like keeping your elbows in with a Tan, or sinking energy with a chum. I see it as an isolation exercise. Trying to incorporate footwork of any kind would just confuse someone who hasn't got a basic level of coordination. So, they might as well stand in a way that benefits them in some capacity.

With that said, there might be faster, more efficient ways of getting someone off the ground in this system, and I'd be open to hearing about it, but this is the only way I've seen it done.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence:

I believe that training the static structure in Sil lim Tao is important because the sense of rootedness will indeed come into play often enough when absorbing or redirecting the force of your opponent's blows - even if only for a brief moment during the course of what otherwise would be much movement.

And of course the stable rooted Sil Lim Tao stance provides a good base from which to develop a strong tan, bong, garn, pak, gum, etc.

The point is, though, only a small amount of one's training time should be spent on Sil Lim tao (and the rest of the forms for that matter)...and the vast majority of one's time spent on more spontaneous drills/sparring/fighting, etc.

[Simple_easy]

The guy was sad because he spent 5 years in Wing Chun, and wasn't shure about the structure of his Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma? Don't be sad because some people spend their life doing what they call Wing Chun, and will never understand that...... (structure)

Wing Chun is all about structure. Skeletal structure first.


By the way, Boxing also have structure. Beside other things, that is the purpose of shadow boxing. Understanding structure as a static thing is short sightness.

The best thing to understand Wing Chun concepts, is to seek competent instruction under qualified instructors. And that is a hard task, since the time goes by and we get older and older. And to discover that most what we have learned under unqualified instruction is wrong, and we must start from scratch, is not too easy for big egos.

Anyway. Big luck for everybody.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hee hee, hey mate. I am not sad. I am interested at the different interpretation of YJKYM and the internal dynamics of WC though.
As you can see, I have learnt a few forms of structure and some of them majorly stress alignment and structure, rooting.
From reading Kenneth Chung and his work, thanks to alan for adding to clarify, it seems like things are taken slower, but with arms, legs, body, mind connected. The yi- intention, rooting are all basics, and if its not done properly, all this footwork and drills mean nothing. This is what I understand from the literature available.
Without proper root and structure, how to fajing? How to generate the power behind chung choi? The choi is not a powerful punch without the use of the twisting of waist, like a karate punch. Changing it to include weight shift and other stuff, changes wingchun. Not that change is bad, but sometimes people change stuff because of a lack of understanding.
We do alot of drills to get the reflex/ speed action. But I am thinking, sensitivity is a higher skill.
How did Yip Man maintain his sensitivity, speed? He didnt have, and didnt want to drill with people. And how did he keep his chi sao partners unbalanced on their toes?
Maybe it was wrong to say I have learnt for 5 years or that I am still a beginner at heart, hence people think I am sad, or that I have learnt nothing. My Sifu has passed on his humility to me. The chinese say, live till old, learn till old. I embrace that thinking.
I am talking about maintaining the right body structure in YJKYM which should apply to movement and fighting. I spent alot of time in the earlier days, sparring, drills, depending on speed, strength, aggressiveness to win, sometimes adding muay thai, boxing etc...Got known for that in class. Not that I was good or anything, but when I look at Yip Man and the tales of him, read stuff on Kenneth Chung, Alan Orr, Robert Chu, Master Chu Shong tin. I realise, I could be on the wrong path, by taking the easier way out, the hard approach.
Any WSL guys out there? Alot of sparring? What do they think of structure and alignment?
Just sharing guys, I could be, and might very well be, totally wrong. Or maybe its the yiquan and internal arts I have been doing for the last year, making me whacky.
Learning it and not knowing how important it is, is what I am going through now. Slowing down my movements, back to basics, stance, and proper angles and movements
Waiting for my pay check to come in, gonna get me some Alan Orr tapes. They kick ass.....:)
Thanks for all the help.

[k gledhill]

I agree with all that you guys are saying, in fact its the way imo. The forms are counterproductive if they are the ONLY 'thinking' given to the student.
I feel that the guidelines of tactics/movements THINKING are paramount [like knowing the rules/guidelines of baseball, as well as how to throw a ball and swing a bat] .
The forms are the individuals training time to ISOLATE particular concepts in the VT 'stepping stone' system. As the students train they should ,imo, be given the whole thing in the form of simple movement exercises like boxers sparring ie I have them shadow my movments utilizing the triangulating flank angles, depending on my direction, while always being able to touch/punch my chest [as a target] .
I show actions at full speed and force in the scenarios we reach to convey the connection of weapons/tactics/thinking.. to the empty hands etc...Then I add my attempts to touch them in the head as they are touching to give guidance to correct elbow lines to intercept my move while still being able to touch/punch me. Like chisao without the static stance , going stright to the 'what we want to freefight like' ...then going back to describe chisao as yet another stepping stone to the end...the purpose of SLT 'thinking' coupled with chum kil 'thinking combining to enhance the whole thing we are currently trying to do now 'freefight'...
The common errors that become visible when doing these simple exercises are everything most fighting styles strive for only with VT 'thinking' added....like no timing of ground to fist,stucture or balance to maintain themselves when they make contact with me, raising arms allowing me to lever them. The list goes on, on an individual basis one can then ask a student to concentrate on a particualr aspects of the system to correct the mistakes...
Once the picture on the box of a jig saw puzzle is presented to the student 'so to speak'
they can figure out which piece goes where after being given ALL the pieces....maybe a reason so many arent achieving their full potential and standing in a room for X years seeking enlightenment ....
attached here is ashort article about the subject from P Bayer [my instructor]


Individual Improvement Strategy

Author: Philipp Bayer

"Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should not take longer than an afternoon. By then, everything should be clear."

"Following that, it becomes about deciding how you can achieve these goals most efficiently. This is also a part of the system."

"Unfortunately, Ving Tsun is too perfect, such that in one’s life-span, no more than approx. 70% of it can be mastered * even with great efforts! The Human Factor, as always."

- Philipp Bayer -

Ving Tsun can best be looked at in it’s entirety for an individual improvement strategy, but also as a correction system for mistakes. More modern than the quality management systems of today, the individual behavior during a fight is corrected. This is why optimally, all elements are developed simultaneously from the start and all fit together. As I said before, it is a fatal mistake to learn certain parts too late. Then the other elements would have to be developed without these important elements. In this manner, the result will be totally different and very difficult to correct, according to the motto: What Johnny doesn’t learn now, John will never learn again.

The only obstacle always is the soul of Ving Tsun: not learning Chi Sau the right way, directly from master to the student... giving adequate strength with an enormous speed which contrastly generates a particular handling from the student... Ving Tsun will remain a mystery... as it is regularly read about, seen and experienced in public.

Ving Tsun cannot be classified in a such manner that you could say: now learn this or that, or once you have learned this, we can start with sparring. The forms serve to correct the errors, which constantly appear in times of stress: to bring the elbows in the correct position, train the stance, and to generate a certain behavior that is necessary to have in a fighting.

Therefore, it is very important to learn everything as a total package. It is pointless to learn a certain component, for example the ' dummy training’ after 15 years, because, by then, the personal development at this stage has probably reached it’s end. A certain behavior has then already been established. Also, when starting from scratch it is very difficult to incorporate a new element. It is always asking for trouble to change movements which are already frequently trained, even if it only concerns relatively small changes. The total package conversely leads to the development of a feel for fighting, timing, feeling for distance, punching power, spontaneity, and perseverance * fighting skills are attained.

Afterwards the system is tested by means of sparring and the weak points become clearly visible. Common errors are, for example: the elbows point outward, Wu Sau placement is still not good, the position of the legs is worthless, the position of the hips is incorrect and because of this, mobility, balance and power are diminished. All this is corrected by the forms and Chi Sao. As soon as most errors disappeared, the pressure is intensified, as a result of which new errors become visible and can again be eliminated.

The errors are very individual - there are simply people, who can handle less stress, and in despair turn themselves away and as a result have difficulty protecting themselves. Others have the inclination after a strong counter attack to allow their opponent some space to recover and display no perseverance. Others make the situation more complicated than necessary or start an attack from the wrong distance and unnecessarily waste valuable energy.

It is therefore clear that Ving Tsun is very individual, in each area, in methods, training or fighting. Everyone is bound by his own potential, which requires its own treatment. Gradations play no role, everyone knows each others errors and still encouraged to use these to their own advantage.

Everyone who makes errors should want their trainings partner to focus on these errors * this way each one assures the quality of the other. Wong Shun Leung had superior methods to help someone progress... perhaps another time more about this.

[Alan Orr]

Hey Shadow_warrior8

Good to see you are looking for the right path. Structure is the key to Wing Chun. The problem is lot so of people think that they know what real structure is, when in fact they are talking about something very different.

I have been in Wing Chun for 20 years and have never seen a full understanding of what I would now call structure until I learned the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun System.

Thats just mine feeling on what I have seen, others may feel different and thats cool as well. I can only talk for myself.

Check me article it may help some.

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/formarticle.html

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[sihing]

Great article Alan, thanks for sharing. :)
I particularly like this quote from your article " I tell all my students if you don't understand it then if will not work for you. You must know why, when and how. Question everything! Then after questioning 'testing' is the most important part of correct development." I believe the same thing. Learning and practicing the forms on your own (after proper instruction in them) teaches you how to understand the system and how it effects you and your own movement. Like you said, if you don't understand then how can you apply? Understanding it and creating the structure is just the basics though. You cannot be trapped in this phase and think that is the end of the process. Testing like you say, makes it become alive within you and allows it to be your own and teaches you how to relate to another human being applying force to you. A moderation of both is needed instead of just relying on forms solely, or fighting all the time, to improve yourself as a practitioner of WC/VT, to ulitmately become someone that can use it against all comers.

James

[anerlich]

"Unfortunately, Ving Tsun is too perfect, such that in one’s life-span, no more than approx. 70% of it can be mastered * even with great efforts! The Human Factor, as always."

Nice article, but whenever I see the wholesale and cold-blooded abuse of numbers in ths manner I cringe.

That statement has all the validity of "90% of all fights end up on the ground".

The statement is also unverifiable. If no one has mastered in a lifetime, how TF would they know how much was left?

The Human Factor, as always.:p

[k gledhill]

Philipp would laugh with you ..its 73.5 % attainable not 70.8% ;) just a way to describe perfection, a
concept ......like tansao , nothing to do with the hand, just words to describe something....:D