Practical Broadswords ?

[banditshaw]

Hello All.
I am curious to know anyones feelings on the practical broadswords offered through cas/hanwei. The overall measurement is 33 and1/4. blade 28. handle 5 1/2. weight 1lb 10 0z. I am starting a broadsword form soon and would like a good Dao to use. I don't do Wushu.
Any experts willing to share the knowledge?
Much obliged.

Bshaw.

[GeneChing]

We call Hanwei's practical broadsword the High-Carbon Steel Kung Fu Broadsword with black scabbard (Sharpened) (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-2063.html) (I know, I know, that's a mouthful, but I didn't make up that name). It's a very nice piece - something with which you could do some real damage. For a traditional practice, it's a tad on the light side for many - a lot of traditionalists prefer to work with overweight weapons as part of their training. The guard is a light steel and the pommel is hollow light steel, which should make this top heavy, but the blade, despite being real tempered steel, is light too. It's a great misconception that fighting swords were unwieldy. Training swords might be, but it just doesn't make sense for something you're going to use in battle.

Another nice Hanwei piece for traditionalists - the one I'd recommend for training actually - is the Dao (Kung Fu) sword (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-1011.html). It's beefier with a solid brass guard and fatter blade. It also has a nicer scabbard (the practical broadsword has this really odd non-traditional slitted scabbard that I can't stand).

I should warn you - both of these swords are *high carbon* steel. That means one thing: MAINTENANCE. You'll have to oil these after every use or they'll rust up on you. That can be a real pain in the keyster if you use it a lot. We do sell Hanwei oil (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-2110.html), which is good stuff, but the spray applicators have a tendency to break, so I personally use different stuff, unless I'm doing a deep cleaning. Given that, you might consider our Single Broadsword Combat Steel (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-66cs.html) which is also steel, but not as high carbon. High carbon steel will rust if you look at it too long - I think it's the moisture from your eyes. Ok, just kidding there, but invariably, the spine of a high carbon dao will rust from contact from the left hand or being cradled in the elbow crook at the beginning and ending of forms. I love high carbon steel for cutting, but for forms practice, the maintenance can be a significant factor.

[banditshaw]

Thank you Gene for that invaluable information. I will look into those options you gave me and consider the maintenance factor.
Wow first post ever and I get a reply from the big dog.:D
Thanks again.

bshaw

[jigahus]

Ya Thanks Gene on the write up. I was curious as well on which Dao to get for practice. That Single Broadsword Combat Steel looks like a match for me.

[GeneChing]

I've made a goodly part of my living selling swords for nearly two decades now so just ask the right question...

I should note that the Single Broadsword Combat Steel will rust too. Any sword that isn't chromed will rust. Even some of the chromed ones might rust if the chrome job is shoddy. Weapons need to be maintained. On alternative - and I've never done this nor do I recommend it - is to cover your blade with some kind of protective coating. Essentially, that's what chrome is, a protective shiny coating. I've heard of people lacquering their blades with various clear protective products that can be found at your local hardware store. I've also worked with blades that had some clear protective coating back when I used to make swords. We usually took that stuff off because it was nasty. It was also very difficult to take off, so that's a consideration. I've used wax as a protective coating, not unlike how you might use car wax (in fact, Blue Pearl car wax was a decent product for this). I used to use something called Curator's choice, which was designed for antiques. Wax provides a temporary protective coat, more lasting than just oil, but that needs to be maintained too.

I did an article on weapon maintenance 9 Simple Rules of Sword Maintenance The Basic Care and Feeding of Your Sword in our Sword special, 2005 January/February (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=567).

[Ravenshaw]

I also want to note that the "Practical Broadsword" is really short. 28" blade, I think. It's the same reason I never got the combat steel broadswords my Sifu started making... too little! But I think those, at least, get up to 31" blades, so they might be good for a normal-sized person, but not me.

The quality on the Hanwei isn't bad, though I thought the guard was a tad flimsy.

[banditshaw]

[QUOTE=GeneChing;724505]I've made a goodly part of my living selling swords for nearly two decades now so just ask the right question...

Sorry 'bout that.:o
Thanks again.
When I have made my choice. I will post updates on my findings.

Peace,

BSHAW.

[GLW]

A lot depends on if you are truly just starting practice with the Dao or if you have ever done blade/sword practice before.

If you are a newbie with a Dao, I would recommend you first buy a decent practice sword. Not one with an edge but one that is of good weight and balance.

Beginners DO MAKE MISTAKES. Even with a good quality edge holding sword, hitting yourself can draw blood or worse.

Virtually every beginner I have ever known has slipped learning flowers, has poked or stabbed something...and don't even think about two person sets... I am lucky that the beginner I was teaching a two person set to one time had a basic Lungchuan broadsword that was not sharp... They made a mistake, I stopped to correct it after saying Halt... and then I got a cut to the legs almost full force...As it was, it drew blood....had it been a good sword, I would have at the least needed stitches.

You will also find beginners will drop swords...and slip...so a first sword should be one you don't mind messing up...then later get a good one and pass the first one on to another beginner.

[banditshaw]

Good points there GLW. I will keep that in mind.
I have some limited experience with blade/sword practice so I'm not a complete newb. I will take into account the usage I would get out of a practice sword possibly saving the better Dao for more intensive training.

[MAC]

Okay, so chime in on these .... what recommendations do you have for ( name, type, source) :


1 ) Beginner dao - with good balance and weight for initial learning and practice

2 ) Advanced level - for practice - with good weight, balance

3 ) Advanced level / experienced ; practical use ( c'mon - no jibes about "practical" use - you know what I mean ); combat ready


Feel free to offer details if you like (weight, length, material, felx, balance point, production method, temper, et al ...) but I was just looking to keep it simple and to the point.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As you are rather well informed regarding broadswords, I have a question:

What weight and thickness would have been considered battleworthy back in the day, and is there anything of comparable heftiness currently offered on the market?

Did some people favor a lighter sword for its quickness (as some Westerners would have favored a rapier, etc.), sacrificing sturdiness, and heft, etc.? Or, were they generally standard? Their shape seems to be pretty standard.

PS: this is really only a question about the Chinese broadsword, not a straightsword, or anything like that. Thanks in advance, if you manage to get to this post.

[tattooedmonk]

We call Hanwei's practical broadsword the High-Carbon Steel Kung Fu Broadsword with black scabbard (Sharpened) (http://www.martialartsmart.net/452063.html) (I know, I know, that's a mouthful, but I didn't make up that name). It's a very nice piece - something with which you could do some real damage. For a traditional practice, it's a tad on the light side for many - a lot of traditionalists prefer to work with overweight weapons as part of their training. The guard is a light steel and the pommel is hollow light steel, which should make this top heavy, but the blade, despite being real tempered steel, is light too. It's a great misconception that fighting swords were unwieldy. Training swords might be, but it just doesn't make sense for something you're going to use in battle.

Another nice Hanwei piece for traditionalists - the one I'd recommend for training actually - is the Dao (Kung Fu) sword (http://www.martialartsmart.net/451011.html). It's beefier with a solid brass guard and fatter blade. It also has a nicer scabbard (the practical broadsword has this really odd non-traditional slitted scabbard that I can't stand).

I should warn you - both of these swords are *high carbon* steel. That means one thing: MAINTENANCE. You'll have to oil these after every use or they'll rust up on you. That can be a real pain in the keyster if you use it a lot. We do sell Hanwei oil (http://www.martialartsmart.net/452110.html), which is good stuff, but the spray applicators have a tendency to break, so I personally use different stuff, unless I'm doing a deep cleaning. Given that, you might consider our Single Broadsword Combat Steel (http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-66cs28.html) which is also steel, but not as high carbon. High carbon steel will rust if you look at it too long - I think it's the moisture from your eyes. Ok, just kidding there, but invariably, the spine of a high carbon dao will rust from contact from the left hand or being cradled in the elbow crook at the beginning and ending of forms. I love high carbon steel for cutting, but for forms practice, the maintenance can be a significant factor.Well one thing that has always bothered me about the Chinese broadsword(as well as the straight swords) is the fact that the steel from the blade does not go past the hand guard. There is a threaded dowl from there to the end of the handle where the nut tightens all the pieces together.

This could not have been the way they were made back in the day. I understand there are various reasons as to why now they are not half or full tang. I was wondering if the Hanwei swords are made with this same sorry construction??

I also noticed that people that make them this way say it is the authentic and traditional way, which would be impossible. As soon as these swords made contact with something solid they would break at this point.

So what is up with this???

And is it true ,for the most part, that until modern times that Chinese swords did not even have a handguard/ blood cup??

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah....I have a combat steel broadsword, and after 4 months some kind of connection between the blade and the handle came loose, and now when I move it, I can feel it either rotate in the socket, or wiggle a little back and forth, and I can swivel the bloodcup a centimeter or two. It's just not solid anymore.

The first kwan dao I bought (before getting a heavy duty combat steel one that's like 15 lbs.) came loose, and hte blade could literally shift back and forth an inch or two, so I had to retire it, just in case it came loose and went flying towards someone's car when I practice outside, or hit someone in the school (plus, there's a s-load of mirrors there).

Bought 'em both on MAMart......do you guys have any solid swords that won't get all ****ed up?

[banditshaw]

Wow I totally forgot about this thread.
I did finally learn a broadsword set and I'm on the verge of purchasing a sword.

I'm looking over some options and will still post my results.

The Han Wei Forge stuff still looks solid.

[tattooedmonk]

Wow I totally forgot about this thread.
I did finally learn a broadsword set and I'm on the verge of purchasing a sword.

I'm looking over some options and will still post my results.

The Han Wei Forge stuff still looks solid.looks can be deceiving.:D

[MasterKiller]

Yeah....I have a combat steel broadsword, and after 4 months some kind of connection between the blade and the handle came loose, and now when I move it, I can feel it either rotate in the socket, or wiggle a little back and forth, and I can swivel the bloodcup a centimeter or two. It's just not solid anymore.

The first kwan dao I bought (before getting a heavy duty combat steel one that's like 15 lbs.) came loose, and hte blade could literally shift back and forth an inch or two, so I had to retire it, just in case it came loose and went flying towards someone's car when I practice outside, or hit someone in the school (plus, there's a s-load of mirrors there).

Bought 'em both on MAMart......do you guys have any solid swords that won't get all ****ed up?

When it comes to weapons, remember that you get what you pay for. Quality costs $.

The super sweetest monk spade I ever held was on sale at Taiji Legacy one year. It was $400. They had a matching Kwan Dao also.

[TenTigers]

who made it-do you have a pic or a link?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I couldn't find a pic. I guess I bought a recall weapon...lol. I hope it wasn't WLE's weapons....or I misjudged MAMart on the sword---although for the kwan dao, it's still fair game. I have to admit, I don't know how to judge a good weapon. The only solid ones are the ones our teacher orders. I guess I ought to defer to his excellent judgment. Still, I don't like having the same weapon as everyone else. I had three weapons go missing in my first two years. Then I started painting chinese characters all over my weapons, as well as my name. Less for aesthetics....more because everyone knows my weapons, and they can't take 'em. Plus, I'm a painter, so I can make 'em look pretty good.

BTW: found a pic of my favorite weapon, other than my heavy duty kwan dao:
God, I love that staff. It tells you how strong your transitions are. If you don't do 'em right, perepare for ejection.....or sore wrists. And a blow from it would be wicked......it's solid steel...or iron, or something. About 8-9 lbs.

[Shaolin Wookie]

When it comes to weapons, remember that you get what you pay for. Quality costs $.
.

I know it. You try to deny it, then go for the good bargain, and get screwed.

But as for the question about real battlefield weights and thickness, any guesses? ANything like it on the market?

I'm gonna trust gene, and buy the one he trains with. He's a sword guy, so I'll trust him.

Famous last words.

[banditshaw]

Well I finished learning my broadsword set....next I am buying a sword. I would rather buy one in person as opposed to mail order so I can at least hold it and try it out.
I train at my school using a fairly heavy one and also use the lighter ones as well. I'm trying to get one inbetween....I'll post my find when I finally buy one.

[Buk&Hung Sing]

Where do you live? Find a reputable importer and examine their stock (do your research first).:rolleyes:

[KungFu Student]

Has anyone had experience with the Cold Steel Dao? They call it the Willow Leaf Sword, and it looks like a nice piece.

[banditshaw]

Where do you live? Find a reputable importer and examine their stock (do your research first).:rolleyes:

I live in LA and I have researched online...that's why I am discussing this on a forum.....problem?:rolleyes:

Anyone in LA out there that knows of some good suppliers?

[GeneChing]

A good weapon will fall apart if you do not maintain it properly. A mediocre weapon can often be improved dramatically with a few minor adjustments. Note that historically, this was often the case. It's not uncommon to find historic weapons that were an amalgamation of different parts - guard from here, blade from there. It stands to reason if you think about it long enough.

If you notice in the fine print on our ads, it says 'do not overtighten'. This is because the majority of Chinese weapon fittings are built by covering a wood core with a brass alloy skin. This has been the situation with almost all Chinese weapons for years. It's a cheap quick way to fit a weapon because wood is soft and will yield to the metal when the pommel nut is tightened down. It can be easy to fix if the problem isn't too severe. Often, you can just throw a washer or two in there and you're good to go. Sometimes it's impossible to fix easily because the structural integrity of the wood core is completely compromised or the tang has lost its threading. For a tang, you'd need to re-thread it at a thinner diameter and change out the pommel nut. This can only be done once or twice before there isn't enough to thread left. If the wood core is compromised, you need to get a new fitting.

As for authentic weights and thicknesses, that depends. Actual combat weapons tend to be light and well balanced, however the Chinese have this unique tradition of training with weapons that are very heavy. This is to build muscle, etc., sort of like adding ankle weights when you kick and such. So there are many historic examples that are grossly overweight. The battlefield stuff usually tends to be lighter. Another factor is the time period. Older weapons are heavier because the metallurgy wasn't as advanced so the steel had to be thicker. Newer weapons (such as 19th century weapons) tend to be lighter. A classic example of this is western swords, which start out as this thick bronze monsters, and slowly over centuries, trim down to elegant skinny blades. With a blade, it's better to be quick and accurate than thick and heavy. If you overpower your cut or thrust, it's easy to evade, leaving you exposed. And it takes very little energy to cut some one, if your sword is sharp. So there's quite a range of weights and thicknesses when you say 'battlefield'. Personally, I judge a sword on its overall lethality, not its size.

[banditshaw]

Great info there, thanks Gene.

I really am interested in buying one of the Han Wei forge swords you had mentioned earlier in the thread. I just want to actually hold one and feel it's weight before purchasing. If anyone knows of any suppliers of those swords in the LA area let me know . I'll try them out and even order thru MartialArtsMart to show my support of the forum.

Peace.

[GeneChing]

I've seen Hanweis at the tobacconists in our local strip mall. I saw a dadao (http://www.martialartsmart.net/451012.html) there and went to inquire - they wanted twice SRP for it! And here I was hoping they were selling it super cheap or something.

Anyway, good luck finding a distributor. I hear what you're saying about wanting to feel one ahead of time, but that's a tall order.

[banditshaw]

Thanks for the reply Gene.
There are a few stores that are in the area ..I'll see what they have...otherwise I'm going to just take a chance on the single broadsword combat steel model you recommended earlier. Part of me wants the sharpened one ...but perhaps I'll wait awhile before stepping up to that.

[banditshaw]

Ok here is the sword I ordered from martialartsmart.com
Hopefully will be getting it next week.:)

http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-2063.html

I went for the sharpened and bought some oil as well. Watcha guys think?

[Asmo]

Hey Banditshaw.

I have that one, its a great sword :) Its heavier then most of the sabers usually used by practicioners. You need good technique with this one. I applied a layer of laquer (sp?) to prevent it from rusting, and keeping oil away from my clothing.

And although its sharp, you can always blunt it with a metal file (hope thats right again). The point will always be sharp though, hehe. Although saberflowers are often not part of southern saber forms I have fun practicing them as they also are a great way to train the wrist. A sharp point here can be tricky as they get close to your legs.

Have fun with that saber :)

[banditshaw]

Asmo- Good looking out on the tip about the laquer. Yeah I'm stoked to be finally getting this.

[David Jamieson]

Ok here is the sword I ordered from martialartsmart.com
Hopefully will be getting it next week.:)

http://www.martialartsmart.net/452063.html

I went for the sharpened and bought some oil as well. Watcha guys think?

My friend bought one of those. It's nice albeit a tad heavy for a sword.

[Asmo]

My friend bought one of those. It's nice albeit a tad heavy for a sword.

Yeah... Its where the boys are separated from the man...

:p

[David Jamieson]

Yeah... Its where the boys are separated from the man...

:p

well, i don't think the wushu weapons are of any use, but I don't think a sword needs to be heavy to be manly either.

what it needs to be is quality steel that is light and usable.

Heavy blades move slower by virtue of physics.

Doing things harder is less than doing them smarter in my opinion. :)

[Asmo]

It was just a joke :) I love this sword. Personal preferences I guess...

[TenTigers]

I understand why one would want an authentic sword as far as weight, balance, quality, etc. But, why in h3ll's name would anyone want a sharpened sword?

[Drake]

I understand why one would want an authentic sword as far as weight, balance, quality, etc. But, why in h3ll's name would anyone want a sharpened sword?

Waiting for the revolution?

[David Jamieson]

I understand why one would want an authentic sword as far as weight, balance, quality, etc. But, why in h3ll's name would anyone want a sharpened sword?

To cut down the hamthrax zombies after you run out of bullets of course.

[banditshaw]

I understand why one would want an authentic sword as far as weight, balance, quality, etc. But, why in h3ll's name would anyone want a sharpened sword?

Why not a sharpened sword?

[Drake]

Why not a sharpened sword?

Unnecessary risk, really.

[banditshaw]

I could always dull down the blade...... or not.:D

I'll come to some sort of decision eventually.

Thanks for the replies all.

[SteveLau]

The sword spec. mentioned by Bshaw is just of the right one in terms of size and weight. Short sword that weighs over two lbs. does not work very well. And I have seen swords that weigh over 3 lbs. from online catalogue. People generally cannot swing them fast, and training with them can easily sprain our wrist.

The Kung Fu blade mentioned by Gene Ching is a very good one (Han Wei). Its steel, weight, size and shape are just right. I would like to have one too. And the other sword also from Han Wei - high-carbon steel, Kung Fu broadsword with black scabbard is just perfect. It is weapon grade and sharpened. It would be a dream come true if it comes into my possession.

I suppose having a sharpened blade in possession, and to train with is alright if one is capable of handling it with cautious.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Asmo]

I made my blade dull. But I can tell you that beofre handling it when it was sharp is a whole different game. You're not really handling it as you would do with a dull blade. In all fairness, if you really practice kungfu as a way of life instead of just recreational I think you should be able to handle a sharp blade. If not alone for the difference described above.

But that said, mine is dull now as well. Aside of the tip, that would require lots of work to get that away and I'm not sure about doing that to my blade...

[banditshaw]

Got the sword today from Martialartsmart.com. Man it feels great.

What kind of cloth should one use to oil it down? I got the Hanwei oil with the sword.

Thanks in advance.

[Lucas]

i use shiny clean cotton for removing the old/excess oil and spread the new oil on with rice paper.

[Lucas]

personally i leave the edge on all my blades. if for some reason i want to practice without an edge, i'll use wooden training weapon.

[tattooedmonk]

are these full or half tang??? The " authentic "chinese swords they have been selling for years( everywhere) have had no tang and had a thin metal pin through the handle and a nut on the end. I find it hard to believe that this is the traditional way to make these swords.

I bought one that was " combat steel " and struck a stack of bamboo with it and it broke at the top of the handle underneath the hand guard.

What's up with that? especially considering how much they charge for them.

BTW I know that this is not the way they were made in the past.

[Lucas]

if its hanwei i believe all (at least majority) their swords are full tang.

[tattooedmonk]

if its hanwei i believe all (at least majority) their swords are full tang.so the steel goes from the pummel to the tip, one piece?? not some cut off at the guard and then some thin steel dowel with a wingnut on the end??

[Lucas]

so the steel goes from the pummel to the tip, one piece?? not some cut off at the guard and then some thin steel dowel with a wingnut on the end??

thats correct. Personally, I only have one Hanwei blade (which I really enjoy). It should be noted this is a katana however. The blade I own has a 11 1/2 inch tsuka(handle) the tang is double pegged at i believe 7 or 8 inches long. Hanwei blades are very practicle and 'battle ready'. Traditional down to the rayskin on the tsuka.

My old roomate had a chinese broadsword, as well as a pudao (hanwei forged). Both impressed upon me the same traditional practicality.

Here is a link to the katana I own. After reading that I realized they wrap that one in cloth, where as my tsuka is wrapped with leather. Which I like more than cotton.

http://bugei.com/product_1306_detailed.htm

[Lucas]

here is another link to a picture showing the area you had in question, where the tsuba(guard) fits into place.

You can see it is all one piece. hanwei blades are definately designed to be used.

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/Practical_pro13.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

That's major cool!! I will call the company. All of the swordmakers and distributers say they are selling authentically made functional swords,as they were in the past, for combat.

One very well known company /person makes them by hand, custom, "the Traditional Authentic Way", and yet they still cut corners when it comes to crafting them and then they have the balls to charges an arm, a leg and your first born!!!

For practice I understand not using a functional blade, but for authenticity.... now that is something different.

Thank you sir , I appreciate it. TTM

[Lucas]

You're more than welcome. I love the blade I have out of Hanwei forge. I would assume Hanwei may have some lower grade models, but I'm not sure. They definately have some top quality steel though.

If you want practical and pretty, check out their dynasty series. some nice looking stuff.

as you can see the tang is double pinned on this jian as well.

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/replicaweaponry_2049_14207320

[David Jamieson]

I just want to add, that broadswords are no longer practical and have been an obsolete warfare technology for hundreds of years now.

They are fun to work with though. I like classical weaponry, but push to shove, a simple baseball bat or gun will do.

[Tensei85]

Yea, but after you hit someone with a bat or shoot them with a gun you can't strike the cool pose that you can with a broadsword. (There has to be a cool pose involved)

[TenTigers]

I just want to add, that broadswords are no longer practical and have been an obsolete warfare technology for hundreds of years now.

They are fun to work with though. I like classical weaponry, but push to shove, a simple baseball bat or gun will do.
broadsword techniques are very similar to kali. Anything you pick up can be used effectively once you understand the dao-stick, tire iron, etc.

[Lucas]

if you practice cutting at all, a practiccal design can come into play.