Correct application of CMA?

[Yao Sing]

I just read a post by Shaolin Wookie on the Shaolin Do thread and it triggered a thought based on the common opinions expressed about SD.

First off this isn't another SD thread and IS NOT about SD so keep all that in the BASD (Big Ass SD) thread.

So, and I'll use myself here to keep it non-SD, the hypothetical is this: if I picked up a few moves, from whatever source (legit teacher, video tape, movies, etc) and train and apply them as I see fit is it wrong?

I mean it might be wrong per the style or it might not be the intended (or even approved) application but if I can use it successfully in a fight what's the problem?

I'm not talking lineage holder or passing on a system intact.

The reference to SD here is that some claim they do either non-CMA moves or do CMA moves in a Karate manner. Yet they say they can use these moves in a fight.

Quite a few agreed that the clip of JP sparring is good.

So what are your thoughts?

[Royal Dragon]

Well, if yo are trying to stay specifically "In style", and you are breaking that styles principals, then you are wrong.

BUT, if you are working on developing your own style, then you are just fine, so long as it works when needed.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I only post when I'm at work....government job, gotta love it. Do nothing and get paid to post on KFM....:D I'm like Gene without the credentials....just kiddin'.

Anyway. I don't have a problem with it. If I see someone do one of our forms and add something in that's not there, I'll tell 'em so respectfully, and then show the proper format. But if they're fighting and they do something I've never seen that whoops me proper...then hell, I want to learn it. It might not be SD approved. And it's not traditional in a sense. But then, I'm not hung up on tradition, so much--only where it concerns respect. I'm a student of my teacher. He's taught me a lot. I remember how awkward I felt the first time I held up my hands and an instructor said: "hit me." I had no idea what to do. Now I've got options, and I'm completely at ease in that situation.

But if my teacher saw me pull off some strange technique that was effective, and then said: "don't do that, it's improper." I'd wonder why, unless he said why --i.e. weak structure, bad posture, bad technique, too many openings in the defense. If he didn't want me to do it, I wouldn't--in his presence. But you can bet I'd practice it when he wasn't looking....:o

I'd just chalk it up to the old wookie style in the making...:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

I'd just chalk it up to the old wookie style in the making...

Reply]
You know, I think ultimately that is what we have to do. I think the "Style" of many of the arts is either lost, or not avalaible to us anymore. What survives if the "Technology" of the art, in which we can use to develop our own styles of expression.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But at the same time, formalized training should be the first step.

I think a lot of this non-traditional, mixed training talk began with the ChingWoo stuff, and was really catalyzed with Bruce Lee's JKD.

But we can't take it too far. The reason guys like Bruce Lee were possible is that there were traditional masters of traditional, formalized styles taught in formalized manners. You can take what you want---but you gotta get it from a quality teacher. And in order for there to be quality teachers, there has to be strict conformity in a teacher's regimen. I think students are delevoping different attitutes towards training, but I hope most masters won't buy into it. You can't get your burgers from Taco Bell, or your chicken sandwich from Panda Express. You have to study fencing at a fencing school, wing chun from wing chun schools, etc. Otherwise we get that muck MMA has become--all Schwartzenegger and no Lee.

I don't know---after all, I'm CSC (SD, whatever). But I've never found a better teacher--and I looked hard when looking for my first school. I don't know what I think of SD forms. They don't look like others. But I view it as SD--a system by itself, and no other classification. It's not Shaolin. And if I spliced some Shaolin moves from a movie into a form, I'd consider it cross-training. But then....I already add a little more Chinese flair to my forms anyway....:D

But back to the point:

For instance, in a bird (shaolin bird-like a dove or something) form I have, I swoop low into a reverse bow stance--like the "snake creeps down" posture of Tai Chi, or "low single whip"--depending on the translation. Anyway, I was always taught that this was to ward off a kick to protect the knee.

Well, that doesn't seem too rational to me--lots of motion to block a lightning fast kick. But one day I was sparring in a brown belt class and the dude snap kicked, then set his foot down a little too hard. I didn't even think--I just acted lightning-quick. I just slid down into the "snake creeps down", cleared past the knee, used my foot to get behind his heavy stomp, and put myself in position. Then, I used the clearing hand to come up behind his knee, used the opposite hand to reach up around his face, stood up and threw him to the ground. It was a throw I'd seen somewhere---don't know where, but not at SD. But the motion worked for me perfectly, and was catalyzed by a motion from a form. And I was a bit surprised by it, too.

I'd never been shown the technique, and I don't know if it is one....but it's worked for me on a regular basis, and people are getting tired of gettin' thrown.:D

This isn't an SD post. Just saying that cross-training occurs even in cross-trained cirriculums, I guess....and some things just pop in there by weird science.

It's a good question though. I need to think some more....:(

[mantis108]

But at the same time, formalized training should be the first step.

I think a lot of this non-traditional, mixed training talk began with the ChingWoo stuff, and was really catalyzed with Bruce Lee's JKD.

But we can't take it too far. The reason guys like Bruce Lee were possible is that there were traditional masters of traditional, formalized styles taught in formalized manners. You can take what you want---but you gotta get it from a quality teacher. And in order for there to be quality teachers, there has to be strict conformity in a teacher's regimen. I think students are delevoping different attitutes towards training, but I hope most masters won't buy into it. You can't get your burgers from Taco Bell, or your chicken sandwich from Panda Express. You have to study fencing at a fencing school, wing chun from wing chun schools, etc. Otherwise we get that muck MMA has become--all Schwartzenegger and no Lee.

I don't know---after all, I'm CSC (SD, whatever). But I've never found a better teacher--and I looked hard when looking for my first school. I don't know what I think of SD forms. They don't look like others. But I view it as SD--a system by itself, and no other classification. It's not Shaolin. And if I spliced some Shaolin moves from a movie into a form, I'd consider it cross-training. But then....I already add a little more Chinese flair to my forms anyway....:D

But back to the point:

For instance, in a bird (shaolin bird-like a dove or something) form I have, I swoop low into a reverse bow stance--like the "snake creeps down" posture of Tai Chi, or "low single whip"--depending on the translation. Anyway, I was always taught that this was to ward off a kick to protect the knee.

Well, that doesn't seem too rational to me--lots of motion to block a lightning fast kick. But one day I was sparring in a brown belt class and the dude snap kicked, then set his foot down a little too hard. I didn't even think--I just acted lightning-quick. I just slid down into the "snake creeps down", cleared past the knee, used my foot to get behind his heavy stomp, and put myself in position. Then, I used the clearing hand to come up behind his knee, used the opposite hand to reach up around his face, stood up and threw him to the ground. It was a throw I'd seen somewhere---don't know where, but not at SD. But the motion worked for me perfectly, and was catalyzed by a motion from a form. And I was a bit surprised by it, too.

I'd never been shown the technique, and I don't know if it is one....but it's worked for me on a regular basis, and people are getting tired of gettin' thrown.:D

This isn't an SD post. Just saying that cross-training occurs even in cross-trained cirriculums, I guess....and some things just pop in there by weird science.

It's a good question though. I need to think some more....:(

Okay, you are taught a form, which we don't know if it's original SD, that's has a move, which your teacher never explained or drilled the application for you. Now you found the application of said move from media and you are throwing all your SD classmate around?

I am sorry. Is it just me or is there something seriously ironic and humorous about this? You could be the teacher instead of the teacher who is teaching you. What good is he if the majority of his class got beat by an "alien" (pun intended) application? What good is it for the SD training methodology other than to boost your ego? What's the difference if a Judo person adding in strikes or whatever "alien" techniques in Judo matches and he's winning over all his Judo opponent who is playing by the rules? Is he doing Judo or winning because he's doing Judo? You might think that you pay the price to learn something useful but I think you are paying the price to be entertained by fantasy.

Anyway, good luck in your "discoveries", my friend, and be entertained.

Mantis108

[Shaolin Wookie]

A little off topic, but I'll bite.

If a form's stance puts me in a position to use a technique I've seen elsewhere---(not in a movie, you were misquoting me on a hypothetical on that;) ---why can't I use it? The question we're posing is: is it unacceptable in CMA to do just that? To use outside techniques on closed-in/complete systems....

And until someone has a defense for it, I'll continue using it. And if I can eliminate the defense, why not keep using it? In the past 40 years of the Do, I'm sure I'm not the first. And in the past centuries of Tai Chi, I'm sure I'm not the first.:D It is a throw that I've A) either seen executed first-hand at another school, or B) something someone threw me with someplace else. They just never did it in the manner I did. Does this discredit what I did? Should I not use it because it isn't in my system. The form and placement are correct....

I'd like your opinion.

That is the question.

Remember dude, everyone loves a wookie. We're walking, talking carpets for crying out loud....

[Shaolin Wookie]

By the way, dude. You have to forgive my niavete.

I'm the only beginning martial arts student here. Everyone else in this forum is an expert. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

Sounds to me like you blundered into a good application. I'd keep it, and add it to the Wookie style.