video: plain clothes cops vs shoplifter

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aVbDpXd7A0&eurl=

[kwaichang]

THOSE PIGS SHOULD BE FIRED AND FREE PUNCHES TAKEN ON THEM kc

[David Jamieson]

The theif indeed has to be arrested.
But there was unreasonable use of force there. Punching in the face displays a lack of tactical training and not to mention lack of the ability to keep cool.

If a cop can't keep cool, s/he's just a thug in a uniform. Yes, they are people too and they feel too, but anger and seeking to inflict pain beyond what is necessary to do your job put's you in a profile of not really belonging on a police force.

Even though you (police) are arresting folks in tense situations everyday you have to remember that the people you arrest are the same people that you serve.

If we can't stem aggresiveness through correct training in those positions of authority, then chaos comes to play. Police are supposed to be righteous. there are too many examples of this type of behaviour coming out everywhere and regularly.

So, what training aspect do you think is lacking with this guy that he resorts to punching a subdued person in the face?

[tug]

MK - Does this relate to the recent happenings regarding the Sean Bell shooting that has gotten so much press lately?

TuG.

[Flying-Monkey]

If those guys were cops, I think they did fine. They didn't have to punch him but I feel it was still within reason. He was resisting arrest. He was yelling and screaming that he could not breathe. Does that sound strange?

[LeeCasebolt]

If those guys were cops, I think they did fine. They didn't have to punch him but I feel it was still within reason. He was resisting arrest. He was yelling and screaming that he could not breathe. Does that sound strange?

Given that he was being smothered and knee-locked, no, not so strange.

On the other hand, screw him.

[mickey]

Well,

At least the cops did not shoot 50 times as was done to some unarmed guys in a car @ 2 weeks ago in NYC.

The media likes to keep psycho sick stuff like that local.


mickey

[Flying-Monkey]

Given that he was being smothered and knee-locked, no, not so strange.

On the other hand, screw him.

His face was in close-quarters with the cops body, but he wasn't being smothered. He was winded from resisting. He was subdued and taken away.

Why was he resisting?

[LeeCasebolt]

Why was he resisting?

I'll go with "because he's an idiot" but I'm just guessing.

[Yao Sing]

Why was he resisting?

I'm guesssing it's 50% natural reaction to being manhandled and 50% trying to get away after committing a crime.

Why are people surprised when criminals make an effort to get away with their crimes?

[Royal Dragon]

Those guys were rent a cops...store security on "Shoplift detail", No way they were "Plain Cloths".

If they were real, they would not have been telling people to call 911.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

actually i wouldnt be suprised to learn that they were just store employees.

im not saying that cops arent above losing their temper and ****ing up, theres a lot of truth to what dave was saying, but it would take a really really dumb cop to do it in front of all those witnesses.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, store security...with Cuffs.

[WinterPalm]

Unfortunately I am involved in that stuff more often than I'd like. I work as security and coordinate with loss prevention who do perform arrests and handcuffing. These are my observations.

1.) These guys making the arrest have no experience and no training. Three guys to deal with one? Maybe, but when you have that kind of control in a standing position a leg sweep should be in order. Also, limited knowledge of wrist control and locks from that position. No concept of applying pressure on the ground via either said achieved locks or body weight.

2.) Punching to the face...wow...that's is assault unless being attacked...that guy was restrained, albeit poorly and tentatively, but restrained nonetheless. If I or an undercove guy do that without severe attacks occuring against us, we lose our jobs and probably end up in court.

3.) Never listen to the guy you're grabbing...it will be non stop, you're hurting me, you're breaking my arm, you're twisting my wrists, the cuffs are too tight, I have to go to the bathroom, I have a ride waiting for me, get this bag off my head I can't breathe...:D These guys, and anyone in that position should know how to apply proper force via all the methods of restraint without seriously hurting someone...bruised or even cut forearms from handcuffs is not that big of a deal.

4.) If you've retreived the product and the guy is getting really violent and you obviously cannot control him, let him go. If you are the police that is different, if he has done something serious, that is different, but petty shoplifting isn't worth a potential injury or liability.

That video should be used in training classes to highlight both the potential environmental aspects of the job and other people around (I know a guy that was ko'd by a bystander and another that was run over by a buddy of the person he was grabbing), and the video should be used to highlight all the things you shouldn't do.

That said, someone on drugs will complicate things but those guys were just plain ignorant as to how to do their job.

[Merryprankster]

RD,

Just what I was thinking. Store security, hardly a "cop."

A bit rough, and poorly trained, but not way over the line with respect to use of force issues.

Somebody needs to train them before they hurt somebody or themselves though.

And WP has it right. Never listen to the yahoo you're restraining. Once the situation has calmed down, you can come back to the issue later, but the first item is to control what's going on.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Yeah, store security...with Cuffs.

whoops my bad ... missed the cuffs part. i guess they'd at least be security vs. regular store employees then.

i got bored and just started skimming it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

police in new orleans beating a guy.

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1129017169/Police_In_New_Orleans

i dont like to make judgement without knowing the entire situation, espeically if it were shortly after the hurricaine, but theres the video.

[Yao Sing]

Ha, whatever you got we have right here in Central Florida. Cops beating peeps right here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQbOqvMYec)

Heck, we even have Karate Instructors molesting students (link (http://www.topix.net/content/trb/3947878995023316258934231327191116588380)).

And this guy ran an after school program. Maybe he got to meet the cops in the video clip (if we're lucky).

Wish I still had my school down there I would have had an influx of students.

[DragonzRage]

Yep those guys were probably private security rather than actual police officers. They never identified themselves as police to anyone.

It was not a well executed detention, but i've seen worse. Keep in mind, their goal was not to beat the guy up, but to subdue, control, and handcuff him... which is an entirely different animal. That being said, there was absolutely nothing excessive about the level of force they used from what i saw.

David J,
your tirade about thugs in uniform is just a tad unwarranted, considering that you're basing it on a very tame video of rent-a-cops wrestling down a supposed shoplifter and smacking him in the face a couple times while he's still fighting. furthermore, your blanket statement about punching a suspect in the face being "a complete lack of tactical training" or whatever you said is utter nonsense and just a common example of how people with no base of knowledge tend to assume that they know how the police should do their jobs. Its exactly the same as those fools standing around in the video yelling, 'why don't you read him his rights?' Even if those guys were cops (which they weren't), there is absolutely no reason and no legal obligation to mirandize a combative/resistive suspect. Heck, you don't even have to read the miranda admonition after you arrest him. Miranda is only required once have him in custody (arrested) AND are interrogating him.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I agree, the punching was unnecessary, but sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do? Who knows what the perp would have done, if they gave him the opportunity?

The not breathing part? C'mon, how do you yell that you are not breathing, if you can't breath??

Definatly poorly trained security or police, either way.

I dont' think they were police, they didn't ask or search him for a weapon, which is the first thing you do.

Seems like a bunch of inexperienced guys.

On the other side, the guy was a fool for resisting.

Here is a message; DON'T RESIST THE POLICE. IT WILL ONLY MAKE MATTERS WORSE. Police have to live with potentialy dangerous situations every day, pulling over a vehicle, a shoplifter, local fight, etc. Anything could happen.

I've trained many police in the past - cut them a little slack, they have a hard job protecting us.

[WinterPalm]

Don't get me wrong.
I know that job. They did it wrong, no question there.
However, if it was a real fight and not a part of the job, then yeah, I would throw strikes but the job, and the responsibilities require that you don't use excessive force. Those guys were very poorly trained amateurs at best.

[Merryprankster]

Miranda is only required once have him in custody (arrested) AND are interrogating him.


The rules might be different in hippy Canada :D

[charyuop]

They are lucky the people around didn't take the side of the guy vs. 3 and they would have been in real trouble.
I would love for once see a video where they show these kinda abuses and the person abused can actually difend himself...

Personal opinion? If they go to court those guys risk some troubles...