Greetings

[Snake n Crane]

Hello everyone,
I am a WC practitioner from Oz. My lineage spans from William Cheung's line.

I am greatly interested in discussing the why's and wherefore's of Traditional WIng Chun.

I began in 1993 and have learnt from William Cheung, David Cheung, Sifu Joe Molnar and Sifu Peter Atkin (Sifu joe's senior student)

In looking around the world I have seen that the TWC I learn is greatly different from a lot of what I see.

I ask this question out of genuine curiosity....how many WC guys know what a close change and an open change is? Also how many of you know the full 7 stances. I am asking these questions of genuine curiosity so pelase take it is as that, not a challenge to anyone's style or skills!

cheers

SnC

[anerlich]

I began in 1993 and have learnt from William Cheung, David Cheung, Sifu Joe Molnar and Sifu Peter Atkin (Sifu joe's senior student)

I've been a student of Rick Spain since 1989. In the late 1970's I also studied with David Crook who was a student of William Cheung's in the 1960's. I was graded to Gold Sash in TWC before we split with the WWCKFA.


how many WC guys know what a close change and an open change is?

I don't know, though I'll bet they're called something else in our curriculum. I have a very good memory, and eye for and interest in technical detail, but this terminology is new to me.


Also how many of you know the full 7 stances.

If they are in the forms - empty hand, weapons, dummy - I know them. Otherwise not.

Do I pass? Fail?

Terminology varies greatly, and there is no canonical version for WC - nor, apparently, for TWC.

And terminology can't fight.

[Snake n Crane]

This is sorta why I asked the questions.

With your lineage ie: Sifu Rick Spain. there is a certain amount of things that will be similar. Sifu Joe is Sifu Rick's TWC senior, they trained together. but Sifu Rick has branched out into other styles to combine, so it's hard to say what his TWC teachings would be now. (Without training there myself)

I was just wondering perhaps more about how many people train modified WC in difference to Traditional WC. Everytime you mention these comparisons people get a little hostile. Most claim to train traditional but it seems few actually know what the two terms actually mean.

The "close change" - "open change" and the '7 stances' is a fundamental part of traditional WC but it is, as you say, sometimes changed in terminology and interpretation.

In our system of TWC they are clear and defined.

Oh and by the way Sifu Joe's TWC is the most applied TWC I've come across personally, it's tried and tested and really works.

If you don't want to make it work in a fight situation, why learn TWC?

Cheers and good will........

[anerlich]

Sifu Joe is Sifu Rick's TWC senior

Unlikely IMO.

I looked for Joe Molnar on the CheungsWingChun web site, but couldn't find him.

I Googled him to find on his own website he's been doing TWC since 1982, the same year Rick won the World invitational KF championships in Hong Kong for William Cheung. Rick started with William Cheung in the mid-1970's.

Rick was graded to Red Sash, 7th level master, by William Cheung in 1994 or 1995, FWIW.


In our system of TWC they are clear and defined.

Perhaps then you could clarify and define them here, so we can all have a discussion with some point to it?


Sifu Rick has branched out into other styles to combine, so it's hard to say what his TWC teachings would be now.

Not for me. He's "branched out into other styles to combine", but his TWC has stuck to its traditional roots.


Most claim to train traditional but it seems few actually know what the two terms actually mean.

These terms, too, are the subject of much debate. How do *you* define them? It's hard to have a meaningful discussion unless you clarify what you want it to be about. At the moment I feel like I'm on Who Wants to be a Millionaire without the multiple choice answers.


Oh and by the way Sifu Joe's TWC is the most applied TWC I've come across personally, it's tried and tested and really works.

Congrats. I'm sure students of guys like Phil Redmond, Keith Mazza, and Victor Parlati, as well as Rick Spain, feel the same way about their own instructors. Hard to say "Without training there myself", I'm sure you agree.


If you don't want to make it work in a fight situation, why learn TWC?


Huh?

[Snake n Crane]

You are right I apologize, I was confusing Sifu Rick with another. Re: who is senior.

As far as Sifu Joe goes he has his Level 11 with William. He left William's stable and Walked away many years ago, as many have done reportedly. We have pictures of Joe with William and Dana Wong at Dana's Gold Sash Grading etc.....

Ask Sifu Rick about Joe Molnar, he will tell you, I imagine.

As for techniques Seven stances, neutral, left/right neutral, half step, throughstep, full step, absorb step.

'openchange' is steping out to exchange range on the 45, 'close change' is turning back to the rear 45 for striking and divertion. (Best known for Bruce Lee's one inch punch technique)

I hope this makes sense, I don't really have the time to break it down further right know, but if it is unclear let me know and I will try again in a few days.

I meant no disprespect to Sifu Rick by the 'branching out comments' I was simply pointing out I wouldn't know what he was doing, I am not in Sydney etc...

I have great faith in this 'version' of the system I have learnt, (As do we all)

Why would you learn Wing Chun if you were not interested in applying it? Not to be a thug and get into fights all the time, just to make it work as a contact combat system?


cheers
SnC

[namron]

G'day Snake n Crane.

I reckon if you read through enough of the posts here you'll find that most everyone has there own spin on style, fighting, training, philosphy, etc, as it should be.....unblinkered.


You are right I apologize, I was confusing Sifu Rick with another. Re: who is senior.

As far as Sifu Joe goes he has his Level 11 with William. He left William's stable and Walked away many years ago, as many have done reportedly. We have pictures of Joe with William and Dana Wong at Dana's Gold Sash Grading etc.....

It goes up to eleven (sic). I'm assuming that 11 is the red sash or 'masters' grading? I knew Joe pretty well back a ways both before and after his split with William but I never recall a level 'eleven' in the TWC syllabus back then. Always thought the whole 'masters' level thing was a bit of BS myself. :D


As for techniques Seven stances, neutral, left/right neutral, half step, throughstep, full step, absorb step.

'openchange' is steping out to exchange range on the 45, 'close change' is turning back to the rear 45 for striking and divertion. (Best known for Bruce Lee's one inch punch technique)

Most of this stuff is still common to what is taught by others (at least the ones I've seen / trained with). I think Joe might have split some things out or subdivided some of the basic footwork for his syllabus (re open and closed changes). No biggy, still all there. As Anerlich said the stance / footwork names mean little, its more important they work effectively/consistently in application when tested.

I meant no disprespect to Sifu Rick by the 'branching out comments' I was simply pointing out I wouldn't know what he was doing, I am not in Sydney etc...

Ask Joe about some of the Gracie grappling seminars he attended years back, he certainly found them valuable at the time and took things on board. I should know I was one of his first victims throttled thereafter :eek: . Ricks people are a good example of an extension into this tool set.

I have great faith in this 'version' of the system I have learnt, (As do we all)

Why would you learn Wing Chun if you were not interested in applying it? Not to be a thug and get into fights all the time, just to make it work as a contact combat system?

Maaate.... most people do or should otherwise why bother, but its just as important to realise (when discussion of difference arise) that your sifu or even his sifu didnt invent the wheel, and what works for him may not work as well for others and vice-versa. Most people evolve the system to suit their needs hence the term 'style'.


cheers
SnC

[viper]

Good to see all the aussies comin out of the wood work more.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Would jump into this all out - if it weren't for Andrew Nerlich (Anerlich) being spot on with all his questions and comments.

ALL the footwork decribed by snake (now that's he's spelled it out in detail) is included in what I've learned, what Phil has learned, what Keith has learned, etc. etc.

[anerlich]

As for techniques Seven stances, neutral, left/right neutral, half step, throughstep, full step, absorb step.

I would have called the last four of these "steps" or "footwork" rather than stances.

Most TWC'ers would IMO regard the front stance and T step as canonical foundations of TWC stance and footwork, but I don't see them mentioned. They're are in one of William Cheung's books (Advanced WC IIRC, maybe others), so they would I think be regarded as mainstream TWC terminology. There's other footwork there you don't mention (e.g. back step) also.


'openchange' is steping out to exchange range on the 45, 'close change' is turning back to the rear 45 for striking and divertion. (Best known for Bruce Lee's one inch punch technique)

We don't have a name for those, unless it's "moving along the central line", "sidestepping", "using the T step", etc. Moving on the 45 is a principle common to many KF styles, FMA, and doubtless more besides.

How do you see a "close change" fit in with the one inch punch? Not arguing, asking.

Much of the traditional/modified stuff has been discussed in mindnumbing detail over more than a decade on various internet forums. as Namron alluded, there are styles of WC, some of which which have nothing to do with Yip Man, and their existence and profile, along with the information explosion since the internet became popular, make the whole trad/mod Yip Man WC debate about as relevant in the larger scheme of things as a neighbourhood dispute over a back fence in your suburb has to international politics. I can guarantee that NO ONE could possibly have anything new to add to that discussion. I strongly advise you to search through the back catalog of this and other WC forums first before attempting to do so.

All styles are modified. Leung Jan and Wong Wa Bo modified WC by introducing the pole.

Most sensible people are more concerned with the present and future of their WC than its past. It's a framework for exploration, not stone tablets.

Per Tim Leary and Tool, "Think for yourself. Question authority."

[drleungjohn]

I would imagine this is the "retreating" -"replacing step" -"backwards adjusting" step found in Biu Jee ???(even though you do it to the front,the way I learned it)