shuai jiao, Portland, OR [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

wiz cool c

12-18-2006, 08:58 AM

wiz cool c got it! If you want to improve your throws, Judo is great for it! It can only help your shuai jiao. Wiz, do you do a lot of Randori where you train in beijing? You should keep a shuai jiao training log somewhere on this site.

Hi bodhitree yes we do Randori every class. I'm learning sport style. Last class we did about 6 5 minute rounds. I love judo and they have it where I train but I'm in Beijing so I need to take advantage of learning Chinese style now. The S/J Randori is more based on strenght then the Judo in my opinion. I try to stay relaxed but the teachers stress strenght and speed. It's funny you mention a training log because I have been writing a S/J dairy since Ive been here. But I'm a little lazy so I'll post the interesting stuff like when I got my ass kick in class the other day.

Mukei

12-18-2006, 11:33 AM

Hi everyone .

Been looking around and Reading the Forum. Thought it is about time for me to comment on certain Subjects. This is one of them I have to , cause of my back ground in this area . It sure is good to see the interest in learning Shuai Jiao .

Shuai Jiao Should never be Trained as a sport . It’s the Father of Judo. Shuai jiao is very good . Its traits are in many martial arts. Unless there is a Teacher in Shuai Jiao their in your location then it would be in your best interest to find a teacher else where . Go on a few week – end trips and learn from a good Teacher , rather then learning Bad Habits.

I Strongly would Say Not to go to Dr. Weng. He is Good. But , You want to learn it from a better Teacher. Someone that teaches it as a Martial Art. Like Grand Master Chang would Say, In His days. If you wish to contact me I’ll be more then Willing to point you into the right Direction. Three Harmonies has the Right attitude and has a Very Good Teacher. You should Take some pointers from him as well .

Happy Holidays Every one …..

Mukei

bodhitree

12-18-2006, 11:46 AM

I disagree, I think sport leads to more realistic training. Interesting articles pertaining to the subject:
1 (http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm)
2 (http://www.judoinfo.com/waza.htm)

Knifefighter

12-18-2006, 12:41 PM

I disagree, I think sport leads to more realistic training. Interesting articles pertaining to the subject:
1 (http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm)
2 (http://www.judoinfo.com/waza.htm)

Those are really good articles and deserve a little bit more highlight:

A Flawed Premise: Proper Technique?-

http://www.judoinfo.com/waza.htm

Fighting or Playing? The Martial Art vs Sport Debate-

http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm

lkfmdc

12-18-2006, 12:48 PM

Shuai Jiao Should never be Trained as a sport .

Grandmaster Chan Dong Sheng disagreed with you, but what did he really know? :rolleyes:

I Strongly would Say Not to go to Dr. Weng. He is Good. But , You want to learn it from a better Teacher. Someone that teaches it as a Martial Art. Like Grand Master Chang

Daniel Weng is, like others, a direct student of Grandmaster Chang and was one of his assistants. If he knew enough to assist Grandmaster Chang, he probably has some skill and knowledge :rolleyes:

The HOliday Season is upon us, let's not speak ill of others and grind our axes. Best wishes to you

Knifefighter

12-18-2006, 12:55 PM

Shuai Jiao Should never be Trained as a sport .
Traing for sport is one of the best ways to bring a martial art to its highest levels. Training for only self-defense and "the street", while not including competitive, sporting aspects, is one of the surest ways to lessen its effectiveness. This was one of the main lessons of Kano's judo vs. jujutsu challenge, as well as the original UFC's.

I Strongly would Say Not to go to Dr. Weng. He is Good. But , You want to learn it from a better Teacher. Someone that teaches it as a Martial Art.
The chances of learning the most effective techniques will come when one learns them from someone who teaches the sport, competitive aspects.

Mukei

12-18-2006, 11:22 PM

I see I Hit a Nerve …….. Let me see. Mmmmm For thos of you Who Don’t Know the Insight .

Dr Daniel Weng: Was a Student and was helping his Teacher Promote Shuai Jiao Back in the day. Grand Master Tung Sheng Chang ( proper spelling ) Was Promoting it and he made many people know how good it was , (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Tung_Sheng

Dr Daniel Weng: past history was judo . Then he began to learn Shuai Chiao.
For Beginners I believe you need to learn the Art Before you Play and Go to
Tournaments. As a beginner you learn bad hobbits and miss the Object to what it’s used for. In Shuai Chiao you learn how to Break, rip tear, Dis-locate. The arms and other Joints, and hurt your opponent as he is falling. Advance Students do other training. Dr Daniel Weng is a nice guy, I have nothing against him in any way. He is Knowledgeable
and is good in what he does. I’m not bad mouthing him inn any way .

All I’m Saying, "]In My Opinion", Learning it as a martial art along with other
Styles helps you understand how powerful it can be. As a Beginner its not the right thing to be thinking your ready getting in Tournaments. It was never mentioned to me
it was a sport. I was their in the room with many others in the room, and it was said that
the Bao Ding Shuai Chiao , was not intended for being a sport but used for Fighting
By Grand Master Chang Him Self . Yes …. I got to met him and participate in the Seminars Learning Shuai Jiao basics and Advance applications when I was Younger . Dr Daniel Weng was the interpreter, Assistant , and the person being thrown all over the place, let alone other Volunteers in the room. It was a privilege I’ll never forget.

All I’m Trying to say is learn it from a teacher who Teaches it as a Martial art not
To win trophies . I’m entitled to my opinion. By no Means trying to get into the politics.
I’m not trying to Slander anyone .
A couple of Good Sites that are good to get some useful information are :

http://www.chung-hua.com/combatshuaichiao.html (Combative Bao Ding Shuai Chiao) http://www.changshuaichiao.com/chang_shuai_chiao.htm( This is GM Changs Grandsons site . )

Mukei

lkfmdc

12-18-2006, 11:40 PM

I see I Hit a Nerve ……..

NO, just my BS meter started clicking, now it's humming :rolleyes:

Let me see. Mmmmm For thos of you Who Don’t Know the Insight .

Grand Master Tung Sheng Chang ( proper spelling )

yawn, please, ninja, please....
Proper transliteration of his name would be dependent upon who you believe is the keeper of the proper method (pin yin, wade giles, yale, etc)... but a good point of reference, the FAMILY name is "Chang" and most Chinese adhere to family name first... also, it is a "D" sound, Dung... even in Wade Giles you'd have to put the ' to make is correct, T'ung

All I’m Saying, "In My Opinion", Learning it as a martial art along with other
Styles helps you understand how powerful it can be. As a Beginner its not the right thing to be thinking your ready getting in Tournaments. It was never mentioned to me
it was a sport.

Chang engaged in it as a "sport". Daniel Weng, David Lin, Jeng Hsin Ping, etc all did the "sport". Who are you really to say these things?

wiz cool c

12-19-2006, 05:36 AM

I don't know to much about S/J history all I know is I wanted to study sport style S/J and that is what I'm learning here in China. My teachers are Zhou Lao Shi 3 time national S/J champion and Liu Lao Shi 8 time greco roman wrestling champion who also does chinese style. I have a black belt in Traditional Jujitsu so I've done a tune of self defence stuff before. The throws Im learning would would hurt a untrained person in the street maybe kill them. Nobodys going to tell me doing 6 rounds of throw sparring at full intensity after an hour and a half of training throws with a partner in ineffective.

Mukei

12-19-2006, 12:24 PM

Ok …. Once more I see your not understanding me. Throwing one another around is fine . Going to a tournament is fine . First you have to learn how to Fall Before you learn HOW TO THROW. Lots of people get hurt. including Instructors. Then If you wish to play around and test your abilities to throw . Fine ….. I’m all for that. But That’s where your sport Stops …….. Throwing In Shuai Jiao is Very Good …. It’s a FINISHER …. Diagonal Striking ….. Your tearing , dislocating the arm . Elbow locking …… your Breaking the arm .The list goes on ….. Last time I checked that is not a Sport. Throwing one another around, I guess so ….. But its only throwing ….. If you know how to fall, your not going to get hurt . It’s a good work out . Throwing is the finish . You all have totally miss understood me. I should have been more clear In my Opinion. I Have Over 25 Years In Shuai Jiao . I have been in the Tournaments and have had good success with the training I have had in my past . I Have moved on to other things . I have only Voiced my Opinion .

Grandmaster Chang went to a Fighting Challenge in China .1933 He entered the fifth National Kou - Shu elimination in Nanking China . It was a fighting competition where anything goes . …. Many people got S@#$% kicked out them. And. If you call that a sport your Wrong . They don’t have them no more. April 1975, Grand Master Chang Organized the International Shuai Jiao Organization. To Promote his art. His Students
That he had Are Very Good . Some Of His Disciples wanted to teach it as a sport while others Veiw it as a Martial Art. They Train and have the same opinions that Grand master Chang had when he was alive . I choose to Practice it as a martial art. So I have my Opinion, and you have yours . Go have some Fun . Its all How you want to Train , and who you want to train with . Plain and simple . Have fun Training it as a Sport
What ever you want to do
Mukei

lkfmdc

12-19-2006, 12:55 PM

Once more I see your not understanding me.

I think we are understanding you perfectly

Throwing one another around is fine .

A collective sign of relief from wrestlers, Judoka, Sambo players, BJJ men and catch wrestlers :rolleyes:

First you have to learn how to Fall Before you learn HOW TO THROW.

Thanks, we'd never have known that :rolleyes:

Throwing In Shuai Jiao is Very Good …. It’s a FINISHER …. Diagonal Striking ….. Your tearing , dislocating the arm . Elbow locking …… your Breaking the arm .The list goes on …..

ah, yes, the deadly argument,.... yeah, we're understanding you perfectly I guess

I Have Over 25 Years In Shuai Jiao .

Great, still makes you an infanct compated to Daniel Weng, David LIn and Jeng Hsin Ping

So who are you? Who did you study with?

Grandmaster Chang went to a Fighting Challenge in China .1933 He entered the fifth National Kou - Shu elimination in Nanking China . It was a fighting competition where anything goes . …. Many people got S@#$% kicked out them. And. If you call that a sport your Wrong .

1. People get the S@#$% kicked out them in boxing, in football even. Not a reasonable argument

2. The Nanking event HAD RULES.... but thanks for playing

3. An organized event with rules is a sport, whether you like it or not

PangQuan

12-19-2006, 12:59 PM

the primary reason i became interested in SJ is due to an article i read in KFM. In this article the description given to many of the techniques is such that;

you, in the process of throwing your opponent, primarily onto the neck or head, you in turn also will use joint breaking and internal tissue damage in the process.

this is the aspect of this art that intrigues me.

i understand the aspect of sport in all arts, and the bonus you can get from solid sport training.

however, if you are training SJ for strictly sport, do you still train extensively on these breaking, tearing, and dislocating techniques? And also, do you still aim to throw your opponent onto their head/neck in the hopes of incapasitation or breaking?

SJ to me, from the descriptions i have read from long time practitioners/masters, this art seems to be very effective in bodily destruction against your opponent.

In a strictly sport atmosphere, is there still a strong emphasis on these techniques to throw on the head and break limbs/joints?

I imply nothing, i am simply going off of published articles i have read.

bodhitree

12-21-2006, 04:57 AM

Throwing In Shuai Jiao is Very Good …. It’s a FINISHER …. Diagonal Striking ….. Your tearing , dislocating the arm . Elbow locking …… your Breaking the arm .The list goes on ….. Last time I checked that is not a Sport. Mukei

no one in Judo or Jiu Jitsu or sport shuai jiao has ever dislocated their arm or even broke it:rolleyes:

lunghushan

12-21-2006, 07:57 PM

Judo is great. I' m in Beijing studying S/J for 6 1/2 months and got my yellow belt in judo right before I came here. The differences are small. Judo is a great art. Here are the main differences.

Different Jackets makes for difference us of grips. S/J seems to use a bit more strength and judo alittle more finesse. Judo has ground work. S/J has solo exercises for each throw so you can do a complete work without a partner.

Yeah, Judo is cool for SJ because more SJ instructors don't seem to teach breakfalls for some unknown reason, and when they throw you and you do a breakfall, their eyes go big for some reason.

My last SJ instructor really liked the Judo because in his words, "I don't mind throwing you because I know you can fall." LOL I was his favorite training dummy.

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 08:51 PM

But That’s where your sport Stops …….. Throwing In Shuai Jiao is Very Good …. It’s a FINISHER …. Diagonal Striking ….. Your tearing , dislocating the arm . Elbow locking …… your Breaking the arm .The list goes on ….. Last time I checked that is not a Sport.
This is exactly the point where a combat system starts to become an ineffective jumble of pretend fantasizing... right at the point where you break off the hard, functional training into a "too deadly" bunch of techniques that cannot be practiced full force.

Here is a perfect example of how so much of TMA became BS.

lunghushan

12-21-2006, 09:11 PM

This is exactly the point where a combat system starts to become an ineffective jumble of pretend fantasizing... right at the point where you break off the hard, functional training into a "too deadly" bunch of techniques that cannot be practiced full force.

Here is a perfect example of how so much of TMA became BS.

It doesn't seem like you can call judo or sport SJ B.S. because they are sport. But if you can throw somebody in Judo and make them fall so they don't kill themselves, how hard is it to make them fall on their head?

I wouldn't train full force on my Judo partner because it would break his neck. But that doesn't make it B.S.

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 09:21 PM

It doesn't seem like you can call judo or sport SJ B.S. because they are sport. But if you can throw somebody in Judo and make them fall so they don't kill themselves, how hard is it to make them fall on their head?

I wouldn't train full force on my Judo partner because it would break his neck. But that doesn't make it B.S.
Uh.... it's not the sport that is the B.S.

...and LOL @ being afraid to go full force in judo.

lunghushan

12-21-2006, 09:24 PM

Uh.... it's not the sport that is the B.S.

...and LOL @ being afraid to go full force in judo.

I guess you never played with chicks, then or small people. Go full force with a chick and you'll probably break her back or hips.

I had a lot of brown belts go full force with me, and it hurt a lot. The first time a brown belt threw me from over the head and took me to the mat as hard as he could, it definitely made an impression. I made sure to return the favor once I got to a higher level.

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 09:32 PM

I guess you never played with chicks, then or small people. Go full force with a chick and you'll probably break her back or hips.

I had a lot of brown belts go full force with me, and it hurt a lot. The first time a brown belt threw me from over the head and took me to the mat as hard as he could, it definitely made an impression. I made sure to return the favor once I got to a higher level.
Of course you go easier on someone who is not as good as you are in practice. However, judo is a sport. As such, it emphasizes competition. To get ranked in judo you must compete. This is where you go all out. This is one of the things that makes combative sports so powerful. The too deadly crowd never goes all out, while the sports people do it all the time in their competitions.

Merryprankster

12-21-2006, 10:03 PM

Two years ago in the SC tournament in Rome, Italy, a guy used "knee down leg seizing" and broke his opponent's ankle. The guy's foot was twisted to the opposit direction.

First, I think the fellow you responded to was kidding. "Sport" judo has one of the highest injury rates in the world....

And I'm carrying around many staples and sutures in my left shoulder as proof.

lunghushan

12-21-2006, 10:29 PM

First, I think the fellow you responded to was kidding. "Sport" judo has one of the highest injury rates in the world....

And I'm carrying around many staples and sutures in my left shoulder as proof.

Yeah, sport judo is the only place I've personally seen broken arms in martial arts. In practice, not even in a tournament.

The only place I've gotten more bruises was full contact karate, but those weren't as near as bad as over the head throws in Judo when something goes a little bit wrong.

wiz cool c

12-22-2006, 08:47 AM

Yeah, Judo is cool for SJ because more SJ instructors don't seem to teach breakfalls for some unknown reason, and when they throw you and you do a breakfall, their eyes go big for some reason.

My last SJ instructor really liked the Judo because in his words, "I don't mind throwing you because I know you can fall." LOL I was his favorite training dummy.

Yea at the place where I train they do rolls at the beginning of class but thats not the same as really teaching brake falls. I asked once about it with my girlfriend translating and the answer was defend yourself. But yes I'm very happy I know how to fall ok from judo.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 11:37 AM

SC instructor do teach break fall. It's just different kind falling. To protech your opponent from injury is very important in SC.
http://johnswang.com/SC_break_fall.wmv
OMG!!! What the HELL was that? How to cover up after you have been knocked down by a nuclear blast?

No wonder nobody teaches it.

Three Harmonies

12-22-2006, 11:48 AM

I'll let YKW go into the particulars, but KF you should know that the US Army found the SC breakfall so effective that they implemented it into their Airborne training as the proper way to cover and protect themselves when landing! I guess the traditional Judo breakfall was not very good at keeping soldiers arms and legs from getting broken.
It has been this way for decades, and worked for thousands of soldiers who have gone through Airborne training.
Jake

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 11:52 AM

No wonder nobody teaches it.

This is how LKFMDC trains his fighters to fall.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:03 PM

You guys are kidding, right?

People aren't actually teaching that crap are they?

And people are actaully believing that as a legitimate way to hit the ground?

I hope not.

SifuAbel

12-22-2006, 12:09 PM

It just looks like a body displacement to me. So what if its not a flat slam.

As usual, the cob in your pie hole is wound too tight, unclench. :rolleyes:

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:10 PM

PangQuan

12-22-2006, 12:11 PM

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 12:15 PM

if what three harmonies is saying is true, then people arent only teaching and believing, but are implimenting this technique through our airborne troups.

thus implying it has been proven effective and usefull in actual real life situations by thousands of well trained soldiers.

actions and experience speaks for itself.

Well all I can say is, SJ instuctor liked the idea of somebody who knew how to do breakfalls and also roll. :)

I wouldn't recommend doing a breakfall off of a parachute jump either, because that's more like jumping off a building or something.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:15 PM

It just looks like a body displacement to me. So what if its not a flat slam.
What does flat slam have to do with learning how to fall correctly?

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 12:21 PM

Judo breakfalls are not for landing from a parachute jump. They are for absorbing shock on a mat when you are thrown when, more than likely, your opponent will be going down with you.

The SJ breakfall is designed to protect your head against concrete while also keeping you covered in case the guy and his friends decides to stomp you a few times.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:22 PM

if what three harmonies is saying is true, then people arent only teaching and believing, but are implimenting this technique through our airborne troups.

thus implying it has been proven effective and usefull in actual real life situations by thousands of well trained soldiers.

actions and experience speaks for itself.
What you do when you fall and you are confined to bulky parachue equipment and how you should fall otherwise are two completely different things.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:24 PM

The SJ breakfall is designed to protect your head against concrete while also keeping you covered in case the guy and his friends decides to stomp you a few times.
Maybe, but it's a great way to get your shoulder dislocated and bust your knee up. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather be much more proactive than just laying there covering up while people stomp me while I lay on the ground.

BTW, for the proper way to fall on concrete, watch some Parkour videos.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 12:24 PM

The SJ breakfall is designed to protect your head against concrete while also keeping you covered in case the guy and his friends decides to stomp you a few times.

I'll have to remember that self defense tactic in case somebody tries to stomp me. LOL

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 12:25 PM

Maybe, but it's a great way to get your shoulder dislocated.

For the proper way to fall on concrete, watch some Parkour videos.

Those Parkour guys rock.

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 12:26 PM

I'll have to remember that self defense tactic in case somebody tries to stomp me. LOL

OK, Karate Kid. :rolleyes:

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 12:27 PM

OK, Karate Kid. :rolleyes:

You're the one who posted such a stupid thing. :)

Three Harmonies

12-22-2006, 01:06 PM

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 01:17 PM

I agree that the purpose of the breakfall is too absorb shock in a way that is not detrimental to ones health. If you cannot draw the correlation between the purpose of the breakfall, and that of landing from a airborne jump......well then I cannot help you. Imagine falling to the ground with 80#'s of jump gear on and putting out your arm to slap! One wrong turn and your shoulder is gone.
To further illustrate.....lets say you slap out from a throw and your opponent is following you down. Is it not safer to protect your head (which is exposed in many Judo breakfalls), and your ribs (as you are often extended in Judo breakfalls exposing the ribs) by tucking and covering?
Sorry I posted anything. I keep forgetting all the "masters" on this board.

Maybe instead of just posting, you should try reading, also.

I already stated that Judo breakfalls would not be a good choice for parachute landings.

If a troop can utilize it from a fall from an AIRPLANE, I think it is easily applied in a combat situation getting thrown on the mat.
Being hooked up to parachute equipment and getting thrown are two completely different things.

Tell you what... go into your local judo club and try that way of falling when you get thrown. Let me know how that works out for you.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 01:20 PM

Too bad ignorance is not painful! :rolleyes:

I agree that the purpose of the breakfall is too absorb shock in a way that is not detrimental to ones health. If you cannot draw the correlation between the purpose of the breakfall, and that of landing from a airborne jump......well then I cannot help you. Imagine falling to the ground with 80#'s of jump gear on and putting out your arm to slap! One wrong turn and your shoulder is gone.
To further illustrate.....lets say you slap out from a throw and your opponent is following you down. Is it not safer to protect your head (which is exposed in many Judo breakfalls), and your ribs (as you are often extended in Judo breakfalls exposing the ribs) by tucking and covering?
The Army has not changed this methodolgy (to my knowledge anyways) for decades. Must mean it works bro. If a troop can utilize it from a fall from an AIRPLANE, I think it is easily applied in a combat situation getting thrown on the mat.

Sorry I posted anything. I keep forgetting all the "masters" on this board.

Jake :cool:

Well I'm not a master but in jujitsu we practiced the difference between a breakfall and jumping from a height. In jujitsu you don't always have the luxury of having all your hands free to put around your head or neck because they usually have hold of one of your hands when they're throwing you.

In a jumping from height situation I'd have to agree with Knifefighter that the parkour guys method is probably better, but try for a moment to do a roll with a pack and 60 pounds of gear on your back. It just ain't going to happen.

So for airborne falls, this method probably is the best and most safe method given the operating parameters.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 01:23 PM

Tell you what... go into your local judo club and try that way of falling when you get thrown. Let me know how that works out for you.

You just can't do it. They usually have hold of your gi and one of your arms, so you can't cover your head like that. You can't even roll out of it usually.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 01:29 PM

You just can't do it. They usually have hold of your gi and one of your arms, so you can't cover your head like that. You can't even roll out of it usually.
Bingo!!!

See the kind of knowledge one gets when he actually participates in the activity against resisting opponents?

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 01:37 PM

Bingo!!!

See the kind of knowledge one gets when he actually particpates in the activity against resisting opponents?

I'm not sure I'd call it participating as much as getting brutalized. LOL

Anyway, I agree with you. Everybody who thinks they're good at MA should go get brutalized at a real dojo for a while.

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 01:40 PM

Bingo!!!

See the kind of knowledge one gets when he actually participates in the activity against resisting opponents?

So what about if you don't wear a gi? I fall like this all the time in MMA, and I train with some Judo BBs.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 01:51 PM

So what about if you don't wear a gi? I fall like this all the time in MMA, and I train with some Judo BBs.
You train MMA? With partners?

How are you even having the opportunity to fall like this when there is another person grappling with you?

When you take a punch and get KO'ed?

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 03:58 PM

One guy name Mike in Seattle (Three Harmonies had met him) had a bicycle accident 3 months ago. His bicycle hit the curb of the road and his body was flying off the side of the road, a 45 degree slope drop. His body rolled down the hill. His bicycle helmet was torn apart and his body was cut all over the place. When the ambulance came, they were amazing that he was still alive. 25 years of SC training saved his life. He now has his broken helmet displayed in his living room just remind him his "2nd live". He was in the same group that learned that SC break fall that I have shown in my clip.

A SC guy had a motorcycle accident; his body was flying in the air, rotated many circles and then drop on the concrete. He also did a SC break fall and saved his life.

You guys love to talk about "test on a full resistence opponent". How about test it through "life and death situation"? It's hard to argue with real life survival record. How much more realistic test do you need to prove something work or not?

Simple question, when your body are flying in the air and spinning in circles, you don't know which part of your body will hit the ground first, What kind of break fall can give you the maximum protection?

Okay. In my first KF class we practiced rolling. There were 2 people who couldn't get it for a while, me and this girl. We were stupid.

Our instructor took us outside and rolled with us on the grass for hours. We linked arms and did it.

Anyway, about 3 months later, she catches her foot in the spokes of her bike, and goes over the handlebars. And rolls. She came to class with her foot in a cast because it was broken up pretty badly, but no other injuries. She said the roll helped save her life because she wasn't wearing a helmet. (That was 20+ years ago).

I've met tons of people who used breakfalls when they slipped on ice.

I met one person in all the years who did break their wrist falling backwards because they put both their hands out behind (something you don't do). They didn't have any training.

You want my honest opinion? The SC method of falling is dumb. There's my honest opinion.

You know, our jujitsu instructor used to say that the average person has one major fall in their lifetime that could kill or cripple them.

So one day it was storming in the snow, like it does many days in NY, and I was running for the train, in dress shoes -- they had some traction on the bottom, not just leather.

But I hit a patch of ice, and go down, hard. Do a breakfall. Pick myself up, slight bruise on my arm. Wasn't even late for the train.

That was the point where the jujitsu classes paid for themselves. If that had happened with the SC thing I'd at least have a broken elbow or messed up shoulder. And no training I could have broken my hip or head or neck.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 06:13 PM

SC break fall does not gurantee that you won't have a broken elbow. Broken elbow can be fixed but broken neck or cracking skull cannot. Neck and head are the weakest parts of the human body.

Well it just doesn't teach you to fall. I agree, if you have no other course of action, you can do this, I guess.

But the thing with Masterkiller saying if his buddies kick you in the head, there was a guy a while back in Seattle, can't remember exactly where, Federal Way I think, that got attacked by a bunch of teenagers, and they pushed him over and he did exactly that -- he turtled, covered his head with his hands, and sat there while they kicked him.

And he died of his injuries shortly thereafter. I don't think sitting there turtling is a good defense either.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 06:13 PM

One guy name Mike in Seattle (Three Harmonies had met him) had a bicycle accident 3 months ago. His bicycle hit the curb of the road and his body was flying off the side of the road, a 45 degree slope drop. His body rolled down the hill. His bicycle helmet was torn apart and his body was cut all over the place. When the ambulance came, they were amazing that he was still alive. 25 years of SC training saved his life. He now has his broken helmet displayed in his living room just remind him his "2nd live". He was in the same group that learned that SC break fall that I have shown in my clip.

A SC guy had a motorcycle accident; his body was flying in the air, rotated many circles and then drop on the concrete. He also did a SC break fall and saved his life.

You guys love to talk about "test on a full resistence opponent". How about test it through "life and death situation"? It's hard to argue with real life survival record. How much more realistic test do you need to prove something work or not?

Simple question, when your body are flying in the air and spinning in circles, you don't know which part of your body will hit the ground first, What kind of break fall can give you the maximum protection?

I watched the clip a couple more times and the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that that the "learing to crumple to the ground with your hands on your head" clip has to be a joke to get me going again on how stupid kung fu is. Nobody in their right mind could think that is a good way to fall. If anything, it more than likely increases your chance of getting a head injury on concrete... not to mention the fact that you will probably shatter your elbow.

If these guys are falling like you showed in your clip, they survived in spite of learning this, rather than because of it. But of course we know that that didn't happen because this is all just a joke.

The only thing more stupid than thinking that is a good way to fall is to think that you will want to fall that way when you are grappling against an opponent.

All I have to say is, if that is not a joke, you guys are even more out of touch with reality than I thought you were.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 06:22 PM

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that that the "learing to crumple to the ground with your hands on your head" clip has to be a joke to get me going again on how stupid kung fu is. Nobody in their right mind could think that is a good way to fall.

If these guys are falling like you showed in your clip, they survived in spite of learning this, rather than because of it. But of course we know that that didn't happen because this is all just a joke.

The only thing more stupid than thinking that is a good way to fall is to think that you will want to fall that way when you are grappling against an opponent.

The thing is learning to fall isn't just learning one way to fall. In jujitsu they taught breakfalls from forward, behind, to the side, from above, rolling forward, backward, sideways, dive rolls ... and I probably don't remember what else.

In judo a lot of times you have to try to in the air change your orientation so you don't land squirrelly, which is hard as heck.

So when somebody said, "Oh, we just turtle." You gotta go ... ??? ????? ???????

Seriously, is there something we don't know, or how does a martial art that is supposed to be so good at throwing as SC not have any decent ways of landing?

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 06:37 PM

Seriously, is there something we don't know, or how does a martial art that is supposed to be so good at throwing as SC not have any decent ways of landing?
I think that the only logical explanation as to how people might think the "crumple while covering the head" method might be viable is that there are probably two types of SC. The "combat, too deadly except for the street" version in which people pretend to do the techniques, but never actually throw each other.

Then there is the more real, a.k.a. sport, version where people really throw each other, train counters, and spar. Even if you don't learn how to fall correctly, it's something most people kind of figure out on their own after getting thrown several times.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 06:42 PM

I think there are probably two types of SC. The "combat, too deadly except for the street" version in which people pretend to do the techniques, but never actually throw each other. This could be the only logical explanation as to how people might think the "crumple while covering the head" method might be viable.

Then there is the more real, a.k.a. sport, version where people really throw each other, train counters, and spar. Even if you don't learn how to fall correctly, it's something most people kind of figure out on their own after getting thrown several times.

What I was told by somebody who did SC in his youth in China, is that 'combat SC' is total B.S. invented in the U.S., that SC originally was a sport wrestling practiced in China and Mongolia and they used to have big competitions all the time.

Then some people in the U.S. from Taiwan added strikes onto one branch of SC from Taiwan and started calling themselves 'combat SC'.

But I should add that he didn't know about breakfalls either, so ???

PangQuan

12-22-2006, 06:47 PM

ive never had any formal training in breakfalling untill my last several years of kung fu training.

prior to that my physical activities extended to skate boarding. I stopped skating when i took up kung fu.

i skated for a total of 9 years. and ive had more bad falls on concrete in those 9 years than most people you know. seriously. sketchy handrails on 10-15 steps, gaps, drops, you name it i hit it up if it was street.

in those 9 years i never once broke a bone. road rash, bruises, scrapes and other minor injuries yes. never a broken bone.

you want to learn good concrete falling, watch any pro/semipro skater. they do it more any anyone else on the planet.

when i began skating i had an older guy who had been in the game for a long time. he took me aside and told me if i every wanted to skate well i had learn to not fear the fall and to accept the concrete as a matter of course.

first thing he did is bomb a fat hill right at me and dove at the asphalt. then made me run and do it. that was lesson number one.

Granted ive been lucky in not having any broken bones. but ive had the best teacher of all.

gravity.

from 9 years of falling on the concrete at high speeds and often un controlable angles, there is no better teacher than the ground and experimenting.

and there is no ONE way. there are MANY ways.

the SC vid of that falling IS one way of falling. its only one way and if anyone thinks that they are saying thats the ONLY way.

well that person is kidding themselves.

when you see a guy on a board and it just zipps out from under him, if he doesnt fall on his ass or back, often he will fall on his side

i recognized that fall when i saw it as a way ive fallen many times from the above described situation. no training taught me that particular fall.

falling did.

everyone has notions of whats right and wrong. and for every situation there are multiple solutions to the equation.

everyone here has valid points on this subject. everyone is right, and everyone is wrong.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 06:59 PM

when you see a guy on a board and it just zipps out from under him, if he doesnt fall on his ass or back, often he will fall on his side

i recognized that fall when i saw it as a way ive fallen many times from the above described situation. no training taught me that particular fall.

falling did.

.

Good post. Skateboarders are great at knowing how to fall when falling off the board.

Two questions:

- When you fell on your side, did you crumple with your hands up on your head and your elbows pointing up and out or did you do more of a roll while also using your arm as a shock absorber?

- How much grappling have you done?

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 07:15 PM

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 07:31 PM

Going down in a grappling situation is much different than going down from a fall when you are riding.

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 07:43 PM

You train MMA? With partners?

How are you even having the opportunity to fall like this when there is another person grappling with you?

When you take a punch and get KO'ed?

I've been training MMA for 2 years now. With real partners with sport credentials--2 Judo Black belts, 1 BJJ Purple belt (under Lavato), 2 BJJ blue belts (one under Lavato, one under Relson Gracie), 1 OSU wrestler, a couple of High School wrestling coaches, and others with a smattering of other random sport fighting experience, to name a few.

Under MMA rule sparring, you are right, you hardly get a chance to land like that. But as you probably know, sometimes you just drill throws and takedowns (often with no GI), and sometimes you just spar San Shou style rules. Practice is not always full blown NHB. In those situations, I normally use the SJ breakfalls.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 07:52 PM

Under MMA rule sparring, you are right, you hardly get a chance to land like that. But as you probably know, sometimes you just drill throws and takedowns (often with no GI), and sometimes you just spar San Shou style rules. Practice is not always full blown NHB. In those situations, I normally use the SJ breakfalls.
Are you saying you are falling like that which was shown on that clip- crumpling off to your side with your elbows up and hands over your head?

If so, which throws/takedowns are being done when you do this?

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 08:02 PM

Are you saying you are falling like that which was shown on that clip- crumpling off to your side with your elbows up and hands over your head?

If so, which throws/takedowns are being done when you do this?

I cover my head, but you just don't crumple up and hit flat. You curve your back and roll with it as you hit the ground to dissipate the energy.

I've used it against hip tosses, leg shaves, ****zers, reaping throws, even hard double-legs. Pretty much everything I've been thrown with over the last two years.

Like the Judo slap-out, it doesn't work as effectively when they ride you down. That's my experience, anyways.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 08:05 PM

I cover my head, but you just don't crumple up and hit flat. You curve your back and roll with it as you hit the ground to dissipate the energy.

I've used it against hip tosses, leg shaves, ****zers, reaping throws, even hard double-legs. Pretty much everything I've been thrown with over the last two years.

Like the Judo slap-out, it doesn't work as effectively when they ride you down. That's my experience, anyways.

Do you ever try to roll backwards out of it? Or maybe you don't have time? (I've never fought NHB, so I have no idea what it's like).

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 08:12 PM

Watch these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y&mode=related&search=

They aren't slapping out, but tucking and rolling when their arms aren't tied up. That's the essence of it.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 08:15 PM

Watch these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y&mode=related&search=

They aren't slapping out, but tucking and rolling when their arms aren't tied up. That's the essence of it.

Check out around 1:17. That was a breakfall. But yeah, mostly they're just landing. They don't show nearly as many landings as they do throws.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 08:18 PM

Somebody definitely taught these guys breakfalls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmi8EXRy62I&mode=related&search=

This next one looks more classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-UJ4NCCMA0&mode=related&search=

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 08:23 PM

Anyways, I don't know what to say.

Some of those angles on the throws from the 1980s looks like it could be hard to figure out where you'll land, so maybe the breakfall thing isn't good in that situation.

Because sometimes getting thrown hard, if you land on your arm, you can get a good bruise and if it gets caught at a weird angle, it could break.

MasterKiller

12-22-2006, 08:32 PM

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 09:10 PM

Right, but even classicly trained Judo guys get their arms snapped. 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other, imo...

Well with those throwing angles, I dunno ... maybe the breakfall thing doesn't work that well with those kind of throws.

I mean, you have to figure that with all of SC's history maybe there's a reason they didn't do breakfalls and with those throws, it seems like it would be hard to figure out where to put your arm.

I used to work with a brown belt who would love throwing and then at the last minute messing with the angle so he'd mess me up. It looks like that's the kind of thing that '80s master would do.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 09:18 PM

Watch these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y&mode=related&search=

They aren't slapping out, but tucking and rolling when their arms aren't tied up. That's the essence of it.
LOL... those guys are breakfalling... pure and simple. They are using their feet, legs, and arms to slap into the mat and absorb some of the shock. Their landings are not even close to the way that was shown on the earlier clip.

How can you even begin to compare the correct way they are landing with the b.s. crumpling technique that was shown in the earlier clip?

Merryprankster

12-22-2006, 09:42 PM

You know, I think people are reading too much into the John Wang video. That looked to me like teaching beginners to fall.

It's like doing a back breakfall - when you first start, you kinda learn - especially if you are slow on the uptake - by crouching and then starting to fall backwards in a sort of rolling/rocking motion.

It occurs to me that this is similar. "Crumpling" to the ground, instead of taking your own feet out from under you so you can get the upper body positioning right.

wiz cool c

12-23-2006, 12:27 AM

O yea they also teach you to pull up on the jacket at the end of the throw to soften the inpact. so rolls the defend yourself thing and pull up at the end of the throw.

lunghushan

12-23-2006, 01:10 AM

It was 3 months (one semester) informal class for college students. They learn how to fall just on the 1st day. For the rest of that semester, they will need to be thrown more than 200 time each class. Believe me after your body has been thrown on the may for more than 7,200 (3 months), your body will response naturally.

200 times each class??????? How long are these classes? What is the rate that people continue to train?

shuaichiao

12-23-2006, 05:49 AM

Wow! There are some interesting opinions here, as well as some totally ignorant ones.

I've done a lot of shuai chiao and a fair amount of judo. I've also dabbled in jujitsu and akijitsu. I prefer the shuai chiao falls but both work fine. To clarify a common myth slapping out ala judo style break falling does not spread out the force of the fall or help absorb the shock. Your shoulder is too weak of a link to even consider that as being correct information. The slap out simple teaches you to control your arm in a safe manner so you don't reach for the ground or get it caught underneath you, both of which are common in people who haven't been taught how to fall. Your torso takes the the brunt of the throw in both versions and your torso hits the ground in relatively the same manner in both versions.

As for somebody holding on to your arm when being thrown, that's a possibility depending on which throw you are thrown with and which style you are thrown by. The break falls shown in this video

http://johnswang.com/SC_break_fall.wmv

think of them as falling from a double leg/2 handed reap type throw or a kick catch and inside leg chopping throw. Neither arm would be held during the throw so it wouldn't be held during the landing and the feet wouldn't be used in the landing either. Also as youknowwho already pointed out holding your opponents arm can lessen the impact. Judo guys are taught to pull up on the arm a little and support their partner, shuai chiao guys are taught to let the ground have them. You don't need both hands around the head on the fall you just need the side against the ground so if they do hold your arm you can land like in this video.

http://johnswang.com/SCd2.wmv

As for hurting your elbow, how about actually trying the technique instead of judging off what your limited knowledge can see from a video clip? The muscles on the outside of your arm bulge out and provide a nice cushion to keep your elbow off the ground when your arm is in the right position.

Knifefighter

12-24-2006, 04:30 PM

To clarify a common myth slapping out ala judo style break falling does not spread out the force of the fall or help absorb the shock.
Of course slapping down absorbs some of the shock. Slapping the arm down adds surface area. Simple physics- surface area is one of the things that affects transfer of energy time is the other one- spreading out surface area + adding time = less shock disruption to the body = the reason that rolling is one of the most effective ways to disperse energy when on falls.

Judo guys do things to lessen the shock of the throws DURING PRACTICE ONLY. This is to lessen injuries and ensure that people are able to train without having to heal from injuries all the time. If one is “letting the ground have your training partner”, as you are alleging in SC, then it will be hard to do many too many throws in practice before getting injured.

And LOL @ thinking that when one is going full force, as is done regularly in judo when competing, that one can somehow control how hard his opponent hits the ground- or cares.

shuaichiao

12-24-2006, 07:04 PM

Of course slapping down absorbs some of the shock. Slapping the arm down adds surface area. Simple physics- surface area is one of the things that affects transfer of energy time is the other one- spreading out surface area + adding time = less shock disruption to the body = the reason that rolling is one of the most effective ways to disperse energy when on falls.

Try taking a physics class before attempting to teach them to me. If you could attach your arm to your body all the way down its length then you would widen the body and spread out the force but your arm is only connected to your body at one small point through a movable joint. Thinking that it lessens the force of your torso hitting the ground is moronic at best. All it is is a second lump of mass slamming to the ground next to you.

Judo guys do things to lessen the shock of the throws DURING PRACTICE ONLY. This is to lessen injuries and ensure that people are able to train without having to heal from injuries all the time. If one is “letting the ground have your training partner”, as you are alleging in SC, then it will be hard to do many too many throws in practice before getting injured.

I am a judo guy so I don't need you to tell me how we do things. You can't practise something one way thousands of times and then suddenly change it the one day you get in a fight or enter a tournament. Also not only does pulling up on the arm lessen the fall but it also helps turn the guy on his back and help keep him from twisting to avoid the ippon and losing instantly, So yes judo guys intentionally do this in tournaments as well as practise. Your beginning to make me wonder if you actually know anything about judo or if you just like to argue.

And LOL @ thinking that when one is going full force, as is done regularly in judo when competing, that one can somehow control how hard his opponent hits the ground- or cares.

No you don't care how hard your opponent hits in a tournament but you can't instantly break the habits you spend years developing either. Also, sorry to tell you this, judo is designed to be safe. The rules make you want to do things in a safe way. You learn to fall on your back because it's the widest flattest part of your body and there is little chance of getting an arm caught underneath you. You try to throw the guy the safest way possible because you only score if he lands on his back. Pulling up on the arm not only lessens the impact but it also helps ensure the guy will fall on his back.

I noticed some of the comments you made while bad mouthing the original shuai chiao fall vid. Things like we should use the feet to help absorb the shock, how we just crumple and fall over, how are elbow is likely to get hurt, ect. Can you tell me which one of the 4 basic judo break falls that vid most correlates to? Can you point out what you believe are the specific differences in how we hit the ground?

lunghushan

12-24-2006, 07:07 PM

Try taking a physics ...
I am a judo guy so I don't need you to tell me how we do things ....

No you don't care how hard your opponent hits in a tournament ...
I noticed some of the comments you made while bad mouthing the original shuai chiao fall vid....

Here's an idea ... why don't you all get together and throw rocks at each other?

Merry Christmas!!! LOL

Knifefighter

12-26-2006, 09:38 AM

Try taking a physics class before attempting to teach them to me.
Try taking a biomechanics class before thinking you know what you are talking about.

If you could attach your arm to your body all the way down its length then you would widen the body and spread out the force but your arm is only connected to your body at one small point through a movable joint. Thinking that it lessens the force of your torso hitting the ground is moronic at best. All it is is a second lump of mass slamming to the ground next to you.
Thinking that using your arm does not increase force dissipation is what is moronic- at best.

Slapping out does both of the things that increase force dissipation- adds surface area and draws out the time during which contact occurs.

There is a reason that almost every activity that involves landing on the ground, from judo to gymnastics, attempts to use the arm as a force dissipation device... and that reason is that it works.

I am a judo guy so I don't need you to tell me how we do things.
If you really were a judo guy, you should know just by experience and feel that slapping out decreases the force with which you hit.

You can't practise something one way thousands of times and then suddenly change it the one day you get in a fight or enter a tournament. Also not only does pulling up on the arm lessen the fall but it also helps turn the guy on his back and help keep him from twisting to avoid the ippon and losing instantly,
Seems like you guys are contradicting yourselves all over the place:

"To protech your opponent from injury is very important in SC. Sometime you even protect your opponent in such a way that his head won't even touch the ground. This is why SC jacket has short sleet. If you pull your opponent's arm when you throw him, you can cancel a lot of force for him that way." -YouKnowWho

Also, sorry to tell you this, judo is designed to be safe. The rules make you want to do things in a safe way. You learn to fall on your back because it's the widest flattest part of your body and there is little chance of getting an arm caught underneath you. You try to throw the guy the safest way possible because you only score if he lands on his back.

If anything the "designed to be safe" would be the realm of SC, at least based on what YKW stated above.

As far as thinking that trying to land someone on their back is the safest thing to do...LOL. It is probably the one of the most most dangerous ways to land on hard ground for someone who doesn't know how to land correctly. Landing flat increases the chance that there will be a whiplash effect with the head hitting the ground. This type of trauma to the head is likely to cause the greatest damage. Btw, slapping out with the arm also helps to keep this from happening.

Additionally, landing one's opponent on his back lessens the chances he will be able to counter your throw with a roll-though, ending up with the him in top position.

Can you tell me which one of the 4 basic judo break falls that vid most correlates to? Can you point out what you believe are the specific differences in how we hit the ground?
That would be similar to the judo side breakfall.

The main difference is that judo would never raise the elbows up and place the hands up over the head. As one should learn in any sport that involves falling onto the ground, raising the arms above the shoulders significantly increases the chances of dislocating the shoulders.

shuaichiao

12-26-2006, 01:00 PM

Slapping out does both of the things that increase force dissipation- adds surface area and draws out the time during which contact occurs.

Your shoulder is a movable joint. It's not strong enough to stay rigid when you land from a throw. When it moves it becomes a separate mass from your body. As far as creating more contact time goes:confused: I guess I would bounce if I didn't slap out.

If you really were a judo guy, you should know just by experience and feel that slapping out decreases the force with which you hit.

As a shuai chiao, judo, jujitsu and akijitsu guy I can say from experience that this is no difference in the level of impact from any of the break falls I've done. Can you claim the same experience or are you just judging from a video?The different styles simply developed their own methods.

Seems like you guys are contradicting yourselves all over the place:

"To protech your opponent from injury is very important in SC. Sometime you even protect your opponent in such a way that his head won't even touch the ground. This is why SC jacket has short sleet. If you pull your opponent's arm when you throw him, you can cancel a lot of force for him that way." -YouKnowWho

That's not my quote so how am I contradicting myself:confused:

As far as thinking that trying to land someone on their back is the safest thing to do...LOL. It is probably the one of the most most dangerous ways to land on hard ground for someone who doesn't know how to land correctly. Landing flat increases the chance that there will be a whiplash effect with the head hitting the ground. This type of trauma to the head is likely to cause the greatest damage. Btw, slapping out with the arm also helps to keep this from happening.

It's funny how every style, Shuai chiao and judo included, teach people to fall on their back and yet after several posts championing judos breakfalls now your saying it's one of the most dangerous ways to land:confused: Talk about contradicting yourself.

That would be similar to the judo side breakfall.

The main difference is that judo would never raise the elbows up and place the hands up over the head. As one should learn in any sport that involves falling onto the ground, raising the arms above the shoulders significantly increases the chances of dislocating the shoulders.

So in a judo side fall you slide one leg out straight, let the other leg buckle and drop to your back slightly more to one side. You don't use your feet to absorb the shock as you claimed earlier. In shuai chiao you let both legs buckle and fall exactly the same way except for the slap out. As for the shoulder being in more danger, that's absolute crap. I guess what I'm getting at though is aside from the slap out the falls are the same so I just don't see where most of the other comments you made are coming from.

PangQuan

12-26-2006, 01:02 PM

Good post. Skateboarders are great at knowing how to fall when falling off the board.

Two questions:

- When you fell on your side, did you crumple with your hands up on your head and your elbows pointing up and out or did you do more of a roll while also using your arm as a shock absorber?

- How much grappling have you done?

1) a nasty spill one time threw me on my side and i hit my head really hard on the pavement, after that time when i knew i was going on my side, i would curl my arm on the bottom side under my head to keep my head from crackin open.

granted falls like that were not very often, usually its dealing with forward momentum, coming off a hand rail, or ledge. getting hit by cars happens sometimes too... or just falling on your ass.

i was probably one of the only skaters who never stuck my arm or hand out to break my fall unless it was to grab the ground for a shoulder roll on a forward spill. going side or back, i never put the arm out. i suppose thats how i never broke my arms.

this is regarding a straight drop pretty much though, very little directional momentum other than down. if i could roll i would, but i would start the roll with my hips or legs if possible. i did cover my head though cause i never wore a helmet. if hips or legs werent possible i try to let my upperarm/shoulder start the rolls.

2) very little grappling unfortunatley. i would not assume the experience from falling off a board would correlate over to breaking fall in grappling exactly, very different sources and directions used in falling. i do however have good experience in "rolling with the fall" so to speak, in that when i fall i just "do what i do"

of course in grappling, from what ive noticed, often times you dont have the freedome to roll from a fall, as your being controlled into your fall, so shock absorbtion, often times, must come from sources other than continued momentum.

~~

my last kung fu teacher also has studied judo for 25 years, so he would incorporate many judo throws, breakfall techniques, into our self defense practices. but we never would have grappling sessions, we would simply use these throws in self defense scenarios, often with strikes/chin na used to set up the throw, nor were we allowed to use our grappling techniques in our freesparring, i think because we practiced on concrete. but thats the extent of my grappling trianing, which is very very little as you can see.

thus my interest in finding a SC/Judo school.

I will be joining a WC school soon. However i have alot of time left ahead of me in life, and would like to study some grappling.

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 12:38 PM

Knifefighter, before I got as deeply in CMA I did Hapkido (2nd dan) which break falls just like Judo. Then I did Shuai Jiao. Today, I use the methods I learned in Shuai Jiao. I can state, from both personal experience and from teh experience of students who compete

1. The Shuai Jiao method works in San Da and MMA competitions (we don't do judo comps).

2. If done correctly is does not lead to dislocations.... it must be done correctly like anything else

3. It leads to you curling up with means replacing the guard or using your legs once it becomes a ground fight

4. It does put you in a position that is good if they fall on you or try and stomp on you

If you don't like it, fine. Similarly if you don't believe it works, fine. Judo methods obviously work... I still prefer the Shuai Jiao methods

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 05:55 PM

For example, you can execute Judo hip throw "half way". The moment that your opponent's body is over your back, you stop your motion and step to the side. His body will slide down and his head will go straight down to the ground just like airplane crashing. Your opponent's body will not be able to make a complete rotation and "no break fall will help in this situation".
First of all, LOL @ thinking you can just land people on their heads at will.

And even more LOL @ trying once again to claim that kung fu has these "special, deadly, no-can-counter" techniques.

This is just the grappling form of the same old kung fu B.S. - in this case breakfalls being useless because of this super-duper ability to land your opponent on his head at will.

I have news for you... pretty much anyone who has grappled in a competitive setting has thrown and been thrown towards his head any number of times. There are plenty of breakfalling methods for this.

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 05:57 PM

1. The Shuai Jiao method works in San Da and MMA competitions (we don't do judo comps).
2. If done correctly is does not lead to dislocations.... it must be done correctly like anything else
3. It leads to you curling up with means replacing the guard or using your legs once it becomes a ground fight
4. It does put you in a position that is good if they fall on you or try and stomp on you
Here are the problems I see with it:

#2- Lifting the elbow up and putting the hand up over the head leads to a compromised shoulder position from a biomechanical perspective. Dislocate your shoulder doing this and the fight will automatically be over. "Doing is right" doesn't make it any less risky.

#3- Puts you in the dreaded "fetal fighting position", allowing your opponent several seconds to mount an offensive, during which time you could have been working to counter him.

#4- Too defensive... laying there covering up will lead you to just getting stomped more and worse than if you were more pro-active.

I'd like to see this type of landing being used in a live, competitive situation.
Can you link me to a clip that shows this being used in a competition?

Merryprankster

12-27-2006, 07:08 PM

Also not only does pulling up on the arm lessen the fall but it also helps turn the guy on his back and help keep him from twisting to avoid the ippon and losing instantly,

It also sets up the throwee for an armbar :D

SifuAbel

12-27-2006, 07:11 PM

I think you just like to argue for the sake of argument. I really don't have any more to say. I give up.

Welcome to the club...

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 07:11 PM

I have just given you a simple example. I wish you can try it with your training partner before drawing conclusion so quickly. I can't believe why you don't understand the concept of "1/2 man throwing".
Considering the fact that I have been grappling for 20+ years, I have done, seen, and/or have had done to me just about every type of throw that can be done, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of most grappling concepts.

Here's a simple grappling concept for you... unless the the thrower has both of his opponent's arms controlled and trapped AND follows him down to the ground with the throw, break falls can be used on all throws.

Of course, I am always willing to be proven wrong. Can you link me to some clips of someone consistently throwing opponents on their heads where there was no way for the opponents to be able to break the impact of the landing?

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 07:37 PM

Anybody understand how Judo "Hip Throw" or "Shoulder Throw" work should understand the meaning of "1/2 man throwing".
Maybe you could show me a clip of this lethal throwing in which ""no break fall will help in this situation".

I think you just like to put down CMA and argue for the sake of argument.
What I put down are dumba$$ statements about invincible techniques or "combat" and "street" styles that supposedly have all these techniques that are too deadly to be used for real.

shuaichiao

12-27-2006, 07:56 PM

It also sets up the throwee for an armbar :D

Nothing wrong with that but it could have been over with the throw if you don't help him land.

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 07:58 PM

Here are the problems I see with it:

#2- Lifting the elbow up and putting the hand up over the head leads to a compromised shoulder position from a biomechanical perspective. Dislocate your shoulder doing this and the fight will automatically be over. "Doing is right" doesn't make it any less risky.

#3- Puts you in the dreaded "fetal fighting position", allowing your opponent several seconds to mount an offensive, during which time you could have been working to counter him.

#4- Too defensive... laying there covering up will lead you to just getting stomped more and worse than if you were more pro-active.

I'd like to see this type of landing being used in a live, competitive situation.
Can you link me to a clip that shows this being used in a competition?

1. We don't lift the elbow as much as curl up into a ball... a ball rolls, as opposed to a plate that just crashes, or so we think of it.... as we curl into a ball the chin is tucked and the knees brought up.

2. There is nothing "fetal fighting" about being in this position.... landing flat opens you up to strikes and can "knock the wind out of you"... having the knees to the elbows and being a ball lets us shrimp to get guard, kick up from the ground, etc....

3. I fall and I transition, I'm not sitting there waiting for the next move. For example, if you O-Soto Gari, I curl and look to reverse or to land an arm bar with this sort of movement... I don't fall down and wait to see what happens

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 08:01 PM

1. We don't lift the elbow as much as curl up into a ball... a ball rolls, as opposed to a plate that just crashes, or so we think of it.... as we curl into a ball the chin is tucked and the knees brought up.

2. There is nothing "fetal fighting" about being in this position.... landing flat opens you up to strikes and can "knock the wind out of you"... having the knees to the elbows and being a ball lets us shrimp to get guard, kick up from the ground, etc....

3. I fall and I transition, I'm not sitting there waiting for the next move. For example, if you O-Soto Gari, I curl and look to reverse or to land an arm bar with this sort of movement... I don't fall down and wait to see what happens
Can you link me to clips of your fighters using this in competitions?

Three Harmonies

12-27-2006, 08:04 PM

KF
Many times you have some good points in regards to the "reality" of situations, but other times you come across as a knucklehead!
As for clips......I myself am not too computer savy, but you seem to be. Look into Youtube and you will find all sorts of clips of Shuai Chiao training, demos etc. from all over the world where they use "this method" of falling.
Let me ask you something...... if one was superior to the other don't you think that evolution would naturally drift in the direction of the "better" one? You may not agree with everything YKW says (neither do I), but for Christ's sake brother don't you think the LAST 40 frickin' years he has been doing Shuai Chiao counts for something?? You ask all of us to respect the fact that you have been thrown with just about every type of throw over the last 20+ years of grappling, yet you come to the table with such 'tude and little respect for others much more your senior! I believe you can group Mr. Ross into this category as well.
I am not trying to get political, but seriously, this thread has more potential to open things up and share if we analyaze the similarities rather than the differences.
I am a firm believer that if Shuai Chiao's methodology in falling was weak (structurally or otherwise) it would not have endured hundreds of years of usage. Is that not ONE thing we can all agree on? Everyone has their preferences, and what has been ingrained. But our subjective beliefs / opinions do not automatically invalidate someone else's preference.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

shuaichiao

12-27-2006, 08:06 PM

Here are the problems I see with it:

#2- Lifting the elbow up and putting the hand up over the head leads to a compromised shoulder position from a biomechanical perspective. Dislocate your shoulder doing this and the fight will automatically be over. "Doing is right" doesn't make it any less risky.

First the shoulder is not any weaker in that position. Second you don't land on your shoulder you land on your back.

#3- Puts you in the dreaded "fetal fighting position", allowing your opponent several seconds to mount an offensive, during which time you could have been working to counter him.

Much easier to mount an offense when the guy is laying flat with everything exposed.

#4- Too defensive... laying there covering up will lead you to just getting stomped more and worse than if you were more pro-active.

LOL at thinking anyone would just lay there! It's like keeping your guard up and protecting yourself until you see an opportunity. You can kick or apply leg locks as the guy comes at you. If he dropped down immediately to wrestle he would have to fight to open you up to apply anything as opposed to the judo style landing where your flat and fully exposed. People drop right into holds and locks all the time in judo competitions.

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 08:07 PM

Can you link me to clips of your fighters using this in competitions?

1. We don't get thrown in competition a lot :D ;)

2. If I can find some footage, I'll ask the editor guy to put it in youtube format, right now, nothing that specific I can point you to...

Are you perhaps influenced by Smith's pro Judo/anti Shuai Jiao literature?

Three Harmonies

12-27-2006, 08:12 PM

Good point. Didn't Smith break his arm using a "Judo" breakfall??
Cheers
Jake :)

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 08:17 PM

I used to admire Smith tremendously, over the years I've really lost respect for him. His arguments are very convoluted. He told a very long winded story about how he used a judo break fall and broke his arm as evidence that the Judo method is better than the Shuai Jiao method??? Yeah, I was like "ok?" :confused:

Smith got kicked out of Chang's school and was very bitter about it. His subsequent writings were all bitter and vindictive, as well as totally inaccurate. The third movement taught in Shuai Jiao is "diagonal cut" which is O-Soto Gari yet smith claims that SJ doesn't have the move! :eek:

Personally, I don't bash Judo, love it actually, and both methods work, no point in creating a straw man argument

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 08:46 PM

The reason was Smith wanted to learn SC from GM Chang. One day when GM Chang saw a picture on newspaper that CMC pushed Smith in the air. GM Chang was pretty mad and say, "If you want to learn Taiji from CMC then I can not teach you SC". It's not proper to learn from 2 different CMA teachers while those 2 teachers didn't get along in the first place.

And wasn't the reason that CMC and Master Chang didn't get along was that Master Chang didn't like that CMC wouldn't test his skills

Merryprankster

12-27-2006, 08:56 PM

Nothing wrong with that but it could have been over with the throw if you don't help him land.

No argument. Got the surgical scars to prove it.

KF - you're making a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The SC clip, as was established earlier, was in fact of teaching beginners to fall. If you posted a video clip of a Judoka teaching the basic back breakfall and people weren't familiar with it, it would look 300 different kinds of stupid as well.

I mean, this is really like "No, you have to STEP when you jab!" and somebody saying "No you don't!"

It's just two different ways of putting your fist in somebody's face. Similarly, this is just two different ways of landing.

What say we all just have a pint, kick back, and make fun of people that deserve it - most aikidoists come immediately to mind, as do the French. ;)

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 09:06 PM

I spent an entire week attacking French aikidoists ;)

lkfmdc

12-27-2006, 09:07 PM

SC guys didn't get along with Taiji guys in Taiwan. Whenever there were a SC master and Taiji master sat next to each other, they would start to argue in no time. I guess It's just like CMA guys and MMA guys on this board. One believe in Sanda while the other believes in cage fight.

I guess I have no place to go since we do BOTH ;)

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 09:12 PM

First the shoulder is not any weaker in that position. Second you don't land on your shoulder you land on your back.
Last you were telling me was that Judo “safely” landed people on their backs and the SC landed people on their shoulders.
Make up your mind.

Much easier to mount an offense when the guy is laying flat with everything exposed.
No, it's much easier to mount an attack when the guy is fetaled up away from you. When he is on his back, he can guard you up or kick you away.

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 09:27 PM

As for clips......I myself am not too computer savy, but you seem to be. Look into Youtube and you will find all sorts of clips of Shuai Chiao training, demos etc. from all over the world where they use "this method" of falling.
Training and demos- That is exactly my point.

The only place you will find them is in training with compliant partners and in demos with equally compliant partners.

Let me ask you something...... if one was superior to the other don't you think that evolution would naturally drift in the direction of the "better" one?
Yes, and it has.

Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, BJJ, submission grappling and MMA all do full force grappling with pretty much all throws and takedowns allowed. You won’t see people curling up and lying on their sides with their hands over their heads in any of these types of competitions.

You may not agree with everything YKW says (neither do I), but for Christ's sake brother don't you think the LAST 40 frickin' years he has been doing Shuai Chiao counts for something??
I don’t know much about him other than the posts he is making here. If he has actually been involved in competitions, rather than just the pretend non-sport “combat” side, maybe be could post some clips from actual competitions to support his points, rather than just of clips with compliant partners.

I am a firm believer that if Shuai Chiao's methodology in falling was weak (structurally or otherwise) it would not have endured hundreds of years of usage.
I'm guessing there are two reasons for this. The "combat" guys are never using it for real, while any sports guys don't have to worry about anything after the throw. More realistic throwing/takedown sports such as Sambo, Judo, and wrestling allow follow ups on the ground. Fetaling would be a huge disadvantage anytime the action did not stop right after the throw.

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 09:27 PM

Are you perhaps influenced by Smith's pro Judo/anti Shuai Jiao literature?
I don’t know Smith.
My perspective is from a biomechanical and fighting/competition experience standpoint.

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 09:35 PM

You have just answered your own question that break fall is not bullet proof - unless the thrower has both of his opponent's arms controlled and trapped.
Considering the fact that you said, "you release your grabbing after throwing and only throw him half way so his head will go down to the ground instead of his back"... that would mean releasing his arms and giving up control so he has free reign to break the impact of his fall- unless, of course, his arms were up covering his head the way you teach, in which case he would, indeed, smash into the ground.

.
- Your right hand grab your opponent's left wrist.
- Your left hand grab your opponent's right wrist.
- You guide his left arm under his right arm.
- You then release your right grabbing and wrap on his right upper arm.
- His left arm now is trapped by his right arm and cannot pull out.
- You then move in with a Judo "shoulder throw".
Can you do any break fall from this situation?.
You understand that using the arms are just a small part of a breakfall, right?
With the throw you are describing, the rotational torque brings the legs around to be used to break the fall. The only way the fall cannot be broken is if you follow the opponent down and land on top of him.. again that's not what you said you were doing.

I don't believe any training partner would let you to smash his head to the ground everyday.
Ah... the same old, tired, "too deadly" to be used against a live, resisting opponent kung fu excuse. So really, what you are saying is you are drawing your conclusions on the "single head weight bar" and "rubber dummy" not being able to breakfall.

In the following picture, after you have picked up your opponent over your head, if you just fall backward yourself then what will happen? Will your opponent be able to do any break fall from that?
LOL @ that "fireman's carry" and doing a back-arch throw from that position. Trying to do a back-arch throw from there would simply allow the opponent to "superman" out and use the person who is throwing as his breakfall.

I believe Gung Li likes to use this move in Sanda.
Yeah, right... maybe you can point me to a clip of him using a back-arch throw from that "fireman"s carry" position with both of the opponent's arms free.

I do have a clip for that but I'm afraid that you will say "It won't work again a full resist opponent".
http://johnswang.com/head_smashing.wmv.
That's a fun takedown. I set it up from a Sambo cross sleeve hold, but it's usually pretty hard to get against someone with half a clue. Even if one does manage to land it, LOL @ being able to dump people on their heads with it. That will only happen if they have been trained in your stupid technique of covering the head.

What is completely astounding is that you don't even see the easy solution from the perspective of the person being lifted because you are so blindsided by your stupid head covering technqiue.

Knifefighter

12-27-2006, 09:49 PM

KF - you're making a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The SC clip, as was established earlier, was in fact of teaching beginners to fall. If you posted a video clip of a Judoka teaching the basic back breakfall and people weren't familiar with it, it would look 300 different kinds of stupid as well.
Here's a perfect example of what teaching that as a valid technique leads to:
http://johnswang.com/head_smashing.wmv

After watching that clip, I can see why they are so easily throwing each other on their heads.

MasterKiller

12-28-2006, 07:19 AM

Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, BJJ, submission grappling and MMA all do full force grappling with pretty much all throws and takedowns allowed. You won’t see people curling up and lying on their sides with their hands over their heads in any of these types of competitions.

Note to self---nobody turtles in BJJ, Sambo, Judo, wrestling, submission grappling, or MMA.

shuaichiao

12-28-2006, 08:17 AM

Here's a perfect example of what teaching that as a valid technique leads to:
http://johnswang.com/head_smashing.wmv

After watching that clip, I can see why they are so easily throwing each other on their heads.

:confused: What's your point? Judo teaches that throw as well except they scoop the legs and drop him on his back instead of lifting the legs to drop him on his head.

shuaichiao

12-28-2006, 08:35 AM

Last you were telling me was that Judo “safely” landed people on their backs and the SC landed people on their shoulders.
Make up your mind.

Shuai chiao throws people so they will land awkwardly sometimes on the head, sometimes the shoulder, sometimes on other parts of the body. People trained in falling can twist and take a good fall from most throws but the average person wouldn't do that. Saying shuai chiao throws people on their shoulder and saying that when they breakfall properly they won't land on their shoulder is not contradictory and even the biggest moron on this forum knows that but you just like to argue even when you have no valid points.

No, it's much easier to mount an attack when the guy is fetaled up away from you. When he is on his back, he can guard you up or kick you away.

Everything is exposed in a judo style breakfall, that's why you see people drop right into a scarf hold or a mount or put their leg over and drop into the armlock all the time. I've yet to see the thrower end up in a guard or get kicked away after a hip or shoulder throw. It could only happen if they hesitate after the throw and allow the guy time to spin. If they did want to kick you away they would have to pull their legs in and chamber them before kicking out with them. At that point you're passing through the shuai chiao leg position but they're there when they land. That's a step ahead of you.

Knifefighter

12-28-2006, 08:56 AM

Note to self---nobody turtles in BJJ, Sambo, Judo, wrestling, submission grappling, or MMA.
Nobody in these sports uses the turtle as part of landing from a throw or takedown.

Wrestlers turtle (the all-fours position is actually not turtling, as it is much more open) to keep from getting turned to their backs. Sambo and Judo guys do it to stall out the time clock. BJJ, sub grapplers and MMA guys do it as a transition to better positions or submissions.

Turtling is much different than fetaling in that it gives both offensive and defensive options. There are quite a few submission oportunities from the turtle. On the other hand, it's hard to land a submission on someone when you are fetaled away from them.

Knifefighter

12-28-2006, 08:57 AM

:confused: What's your point? Judo teaches that throw as well except they scoop the legs and drop him on his back instead of lifting the legs to drop him on his head.
My point is not the throw. As I said, I like it and use it.

My point is the stupid head covering that gets the person being lifted landed on his head, probably breaking both his head and his elbow.

Knifefighter

12-28-2006, 09:19 AM

Shuai chiao throws people so they will land awkwardly sometimes on the head, sometimes the shoulder, sometimes on other parts of the body.
LOL... Have you ever competed? Throwing against a resisting opponent by default means that people will land awkwardly, whatever the style.

Everything is exposed in a judo style breakfall, that's why you see people drop right into a scarf hold or a mount or put their leg over and drop into the armlock all the time.
Taking the mount immediately after a throw without a transitional setup is quite rare and has nothing to do with whether or not one is "exposed". Since it's a relatively easy thing to take the back from the turned away fetal position, it is better to be on the back.

Dropping to the arm lock requires the person to be on his side, which is exactly what the the fetal fighting position does.

Landing in the fetal fighting position is exactly the opposite of what one wants to do on the ground. It gives the opponent any number of offensive options, while severely limiting both your offensive and defensive options.

shuaichiao

12-28-2006, 03:06 PM

My point is not the throw. As I said, I like it and use it.

My point is the stupid head covering that gets the person being lifted landed on his head, probably breaking both his head and his elbow.

So you think if the guys arm was extended out to his side it would change the way he falls.

Knifefighter

12-28-2006, 05:57 PM

So you think if the guys arm was extended out to his side it would change the way he falls.
LOL... of course not.

Are you guys really that myopic with your head covering technique?

lunghushan

12-28-2006, 06:17 PM

Knifefighter

12-28-2006, 06:44 PM

Yeah because they let themselves get picked up like a bunch of children.
It has nothing to do with being picked up. Anyone who does throws and takedowns will get lifted sometimes.

unkokusai

12-29-2006, 10:05 AM

Here's a perfect example of what teaching that as a valid technique leads to:
http://johnswang.com/head_smashing.wmv

After watching that clip, I can see why they are so easily throwing each other on their heads.

Um... well, ok but...does anyone else think that looked a little 'unlikely' against anyone with experience in grappling? I mean at the very least I wouldn't expect the other fella to deliberately straighten his body out like a board like that.

unkokusai

12-29-2006, 10:17 AM

Traing for sport is one of the best ways to bring a martial art to its highest levels. Training for only self-defense and "the street", while not including competitive, sporting aspects, is one of the surest ways to lessen its effectiveness. The chances of learning the most effective techniques will come when one learns them from someone who teaches the sport, competitive aspects.

I agree with this sentiment.

shuaichiao

12-29-2006, 11:03 AM

LOL... of course not.

Are you guys really that myopic with your head covering technique?

That was a demo/teaching clip so of course it doesn't look very realistic. It was shot to show the details of the lift and body turn. If he was dropped then the guy falling would of course try to curl and roll into the fall. If you do come down on your head bracing each side with your forearms would absorb some of the impact and also take much of the pressure off the neck. Since the guy wasn't actually thrown I'm still not quite clear on what you were expecting to see in that vid.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 11:16 AM

If he was dropped then the guy falling would of course try to curl and roll into the fall. If you do come down on your head bracing each side with your forearms would absorb some of the impact and also take much of the pressure off the neck.
That would be a great way to break your neck. How could you curl and roll if the opponent is holding you and slamming you into the ground?

I guess I was right about SC being so myopic with their head covering fixation.

Since the guy wasn't actually thrown I'm still not quite clear on what you were expecting to see in that vid.
Considering the fact that YKW posted that as an example of slamming someone on their head without them being able to break the fall, I was expecting to see exactly that... not a lift that has a simple and easy mechanism for preventing a slam.

shuaichiao

12-29-2006, 11:20 AM

LOL... Have you ever competed? Throwing against a resisting opponent by default means that people will land awkwardly, whatever the style.

Yes I've competed plenty of times and no throwing a resisting opponent does not mean they will fall awkwardly. Most bad falls in competition come from the guy being throw intentionally twisting away from there back to avoid the ippon. Most of the injuries come from that as well. If they weren't competing on a met the injuries would be more frequent and more severe.

Dropping to the arm lock requires the person to be on his side,

Umm, no it doesn't! I've applied the armlock to plenty of people on their backs and I've seen others do it as well far more often then applying one to somebody on their side.

Landing in the fetal fighting position is exactly the opposite of what one wants to do on the ground. It gives the opponent any number of offensive options, while severely limiting both your offensive and defensive options.

Landing in either position will limit some options and make others more easy to apply. Which is better depends on what your ground fighting strategy is as well as what style your facing and what their follow up plan of attack is. The issue was about the breakfall itself though and you've yet to produce any valid info suggesting that the shuai chiao style fall wouldn't work. As for the ground work you can hit the ground,break the fall and change position all in a fraction of a second. No body's gonna just lay there in the "fetal position"

shuaichiao

12-29-2006, 11:29 AM

That would be a great way to break your neck. How could you curl and roll if the opponent is holding you and slamming you into the ground?

The point of a throw like that is to break the neck or cause some other severe head and/or neck trauma. If you get caught in a situation where you can't avoid landing on your head then you protect it as best as you can.

Because he's not holding you at both ends and stretching you out. You could curl your head up like doing a sit up.

I guess I was right about SC being so myopic with their head covering fixation.

And I guess we were right about you just wanting to argue despite not having any valid points.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 11:41 AM

Yes I've competed plenty of times and no throwing a resisting opponent does not mean they will fall awkwardly. Most bad falls in competition come from the guy being throw intentionally twisting away from there back to avoid the ippon. Most of the injuries come from that as well. If they weren't competing on a met the injuries would be more frequent and more severe.
LOL @ SC somehow being able to make their opponents fall more awkwardly than what happens in competitions.

Umm, no it doesn't! I've applied the armlock to plenty of people on their backs and I've seen others do it as well far more often then applying one to somebody on their side.
Let's make sure we are on the same page here:
Are you talking about the ude-garami; key lock; figure 4; Americana lock?
Or are you talking about the juji-gatame; cross armbreaker; straight arm bar?

As for the ground work you can hit the ground,break the fall and change position all in a fraction of a second. No body's gonna just lay there in the "fetal position"
Makes more sense to me to hit the ground with the best possible position in the first place. That fraction of a second that you are using to transistion is the same fraction of a second the opponent can use to work his finish.

Funny how the few guys who actually compete at this have pretty much figured out that they don't want to be landing this way either.

It's also funny when you watch the competitions of this supposedly lethal throwing art, the throws aren't nearly as hard-core as those done by judo and sambo competitors.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 11:53 AM

The point of a throw like that is to break the neck or cause some other severe head and/or neck trauma. If you get caught in a situation where you can't avoid landing on your head then you protect it as best as you can.
Because he's not holding you at both ends and stretching you out. You could curl your head up like doing a sit up.
And I guess we were right about you just wanting to argue despite not having any valid points.
I think I have an extremely valid and valuable point, which is that the SC approach of always trying to cover the head and fetal is often detrimental. You guys are so caught up in trying to cover the head all the time that you don't see the reality of how that potentially puts you in a bad spot in a variety of situations and fail to see simple solutions to those situations.

This lift is a perfect example of this.

I'm betting a judo, Sambo, or BJJ practioner with their more realistic methods of falling would instinctively know the solution here, even if he had not practiced or seen it before (which more than likely he would have, in some form or another).

PangQuan

12-29-2006, 03:06 PM

it would be interesting to see a statistical injury rate from different competative sporting events regarding different yet similar styles.

shuaichiao

12-29-2006, 04:19 PM

LOL @ SC somehow being able to make their opponents fall more awkwardly than what happens in competitions.

Different throwing arts vary the mechanics of the throws. It's ridiculous to think you would fall the same way if you're thrown differently. Judo is primarily a sport and the scoring requires that you put your opponent on his back so that's what judokas try to do.In fact most competitive grapplers use the competition style throws, even the shuai chiao guys. Shuai chiao is not the only art that believes in making the throws more martial for real fights. I've seen the more martial versions of the throws from ju jitsu, udo, damog, bohk and other asian wrestling styles that I don't recall the names of.

Let's make sure we are on the same page here:
Are you talking about the ude-garami; key lock; figure 4; Americana lock?
Or are you talking about the juji-gatame; cross armbreaker; straight arm bar?

I can do either arm lock with my opponent on his back but as far as stepping over and dropping into an arm lock immediately following a throw I was referring to the straight arm bar.

Makes more sense to me to hit the ground with the best possible position in the first place. That fraction of a second that you are using to transistion is the same fraction of a second the opponent can use to work his finish.

Again the best possible position depends on what you want to do when you end up on the ground.

Funny how the few guys who actually compete at this have pretty much figured out that they don't want to be landing this way either.

There are more than a few guys who compete and most of the ones I've seen use the shuai chiao falls.

It's also funny when you watch the competitions of this supposedly lethal throwing art, the throws aren't nearly as hard-core as those done by judo and sambo competitors.

That's a flat out lie, unless you've only seen a few begginners or poor level guys compete in which case it's pure ignorance.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 06:25 PM

Judo is primarily a sport and the scoring requires that you put your opponent on his back so that's what judokas try to do.In fact most competitive grapplers use the competition style throws, even the shuai chiao guys.
LOL @ the deadly "combat" stuff again. Weren't you the one who said it was too hard to switch up the way you train into "for real" mode if they are different? When it comes to throwing, anyone who has gone against halfway skilled and resisting opponents knows that you can't just choose to land someone in a more "combative" way. It's hard enough to get the throw or takedown in the first place.

But of course the "combat" guys never figure this out because they are too busy pretending to do letal throws that they can never really practice on a real person.

BTW, there are no rules in wrestling that encourage safe takedowns and throws, such as your imagined ones in judo. Wrestlers would like to take their opponents down in the most damaging ways possible in order to have an advantage once the match is on the mat. However, they know from experience you can't just decide to do a "safe" vs. a "deadly" throw or takedown.

I can do either arm lock with my opponent on his back but as far as stepping over and dropping into an arm lock immediately following a throw I was referring to the straight arm bar.
Technically, you can do this if the opponent is giving up his arm. However, it is much easier to do it to someone who is on his side. That is why you have to work so hard to set up an arm bar and get the opponent on his side during ground fighting- when the opponent is flat, it is much easier for him to counter.

Not to mention the fact that when you are on your side, you give the opponent the option of the triple threat attack of arm lock, choke, take the back.

Again the best possible position depends on what you want to do when you end up on the ground..
Well... that is certainly true.
Lord knows why someone would want to be fetaled away from the opponent on the ground.

There are more than a few guys who compete and most of the ones I've seen use the shuai chiao falls.
There must be some video of this around somewhere, then.
Maybe you can link me to it.

That's a flat out lie, unless you've only seen a few begginners or poor level guys compete in which case it's pure ignorance.
Why would I lie?
I don't care what style it is or where it comes from... if it is impressive, it is impressive.
I'm definitely not a fan of Russian martial arts like Systema, but the first time I saw Sambo I was hugely impressed with their throws.

I've seen what I've seen, but like I said above, maybe you can link me to some clips of more talented people who compete and use the fetal landing procedure.

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 06:38 PM

Not sure why I'm yet again stepping into this absurd (from both sides) argument but here I go.... :rolleyes:

Knifefighter, as someone who has done some Judo and Sambo and actively does BJJ, and teaches guys who do MMA, the Shuai Jiao method as I described it does indeed allow you to protect yourself and smoothly transition to other positions and/or defenses. I don't have any competition footage up of this at the moment, just annectdotal evidence from about 10 years of teaching fighters

The "deadly" or "dangerous" throws of Shuai Jiao exist in Judo as well. Judo is (or at least SHOULD BE) more than the Olympic sport. Sure, some dojo focus only on that, but that does't mean a larger Judo community doesn't exist. I know plenty of Judo guys like Tripp, Saylor, etc who do both sport and the complete art

The fundamental difference in Judo is that the "dangerous" throws are not randori trained for the most part, since they ARE "dangerous" and it is presumed that they can be used when necessary because of the randori (alive practice) of the other throws develops the skills to throw (in any way) a resisting opponent

By that same point, do not dismiss Shuai Jiao's claims to these dangerous throws. I know people who CAN pull them off against a skilled and resisting opponent and since they ARE dangerous they are a good skill to have

Knifefighter, you'd find if you looked more closely that the "combat" Shuai Jiao people are actually closer to MMA than they are to TMA.... traditional sport Shuai Jiao is grappling only, they wanted to incorporate their strikes into their "sport" and so they do mostly variations of San Da and some semi-MMA stuff (limited ground work). They are not the "death touch" type

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 06:41 PM

Lord knows why someone would want to be fetaled away from the opponent on the ground.

On this we AGREE, which is why we curl up TOWARD the person, not away from....

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 06:52 PM

Knifefighter, as someone who has done some Judo and Sambo and actively does BJJ,
Never mind... looks like we're already on the same page here.

The "deadly" or "dangerous" throws of Shuai Jiao exist in Judo as well. Judo is (or at least SHOULD BE) more than the Olympic sport. Sure, some dojo focus only on that, but that does't mean a larger Judo community doesn't exist. I know plenty of Judo guys like Tripp, Saylor, etc who do both sport and the complete art
The fundamental difference in Judo is that the "dangerous" throws are not randori trained for the most part, since they ARE "dangerous" and it is presumed that they can be used when necessary because of the randori (alive practice) of the other throws develops the skills to throw (in any way) a resisting opponent
I'm sure some people do include the "deadly" stuff. Doesn't mean it works, though.

The whole basis of Kano's development of Judo was to get rid of that B.S. It's too bad some of it has crept back in.

Knifefighter, you'd find if you looked more closely that the "combat" Shuai Jiao people are actually closer to MMA than they are to TMA.... traditional sport Shuai Jiao is grappling only, they wanted to incorporate their strikes into their "sport" and so they do mostly variations of San Da and some semi-MMA stuff (limited ground work). They are not the "death touch" type
From what I've heard and seen so far, they seem much closer to the TMA "too deadly to do for real/ no can counter my deadly technique" crowd.

I'm willing to look more closely, though. Point me to a single clip. Shouldn't be that hard to do, if there really are people out there regularly doing this. There are hundreds of clips of wrestling, Sambo, judo, and BJJ being done skillfully in a competive venue.

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 06:57 PM

All I can say to this entire thread is it is ****ed useless.

Nothing compares to having a 6'5", 280 lb., musclebound Judoka throwing you completely over their head, and then making you fall as hard as they can.

Maybe there are 6'5", 280 lb., SC guys but I haven't met any yet.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 06:59 PM

On this we AGREE, which is why we curl up TOWARD the person, not away from....
Facing into your opponent is not what is being demonstrated on the majority of the throws the "combat" guys are talking about. BTW, that would be shrimping, which is good... as compared to the dreaded fetal fighting position that they are demonstrating in their examples.

You cannot land from a rotational throw shrimped into your opponent unless he has gone down with you... again not what they are talking about or using as their examples. The closest you can do is to land on your back- i.e. the "judo" way if you want to be able to shrimp into a good defensive position.

The "too deadly for combat" guys are doing this from throws where the thrower remains standing.

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 07:08 PM

How many competitions have you done in Judo, Sambo, BJJ or MMA?

My abiliity or inability to do something as a single individual doesn't really have much relevance, does it? No, I'm not a BJJ black belt, nor a pro fighter, nor a champion. I'm just a guy who trains people, some of which compete. If you're position is that you are above us all, and can't possibly be wrong, then there really is no discussion is there?

I'm telling you landing and fetaling away from your opponent is a very bad choice of tactics.

I just told you, we don't turn "away" from our opponent, we turn TOWARD them.

Let's say you do O-Soto gari, I am falling backward (for lack of better description, I am NOT good at internet technique desciptions)... I basicly "sit" and pull my legs in, cover my head IF I CAN (never said it was always possible)... I thus end up "pulling guard" or I can kick at them if they stay standing....

I'm sure some people do include the "deadly" stuff. Doesn't mean it works, though.

The whole basis of Kano's development of Judo was to get rid of that B.S. It's too bad some of it has crept back in.

I guess we'll have to disagree. One man's low percentage is another man's high percentage. Stuff that the Japanese felt was low percentage or near impossible the Russians with Sambo background pulled off (and still do) with astounding frequency in Judo.

Some of the "dangerous" throwing isn't such a huge change anyway. I can make a shoulder throw (ippon seoi nage) into an arm break pretty easily if I want to. I think "morote seoi nage" (?) or two handed shoulder throw can be used to dump someone onto their head pretty easily

I'm willing to look more closely, though. Point me to a single clip. Shouldn't be that hard to do, if there really are people out there regularly doing this. There are hundreds of clips of wrestling, Sambo, judo, and BJJ being done skillfully in a competive venue.

Youknowwho, aka John Wang, posted clips in the past of his students doing San Da in Taiwan.... three I believe... see if he can post them again

He might also have the 80's matches that were done in Ohio that were on old black and white film... they were the limited ground time MMA I've seen .

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 07:11 PM

So lkfmdc, are you on vacation now in Seattle? Are you offering classes anywhere?

Any chance of meeting the fabled lkfmdc this weekend before he goes back to New York?

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 07:12 PM

Facing into your opponent is not what is being demonstrated on the majority of the throws the "combat" guys are talking about. BTW, that would be shrimping, which is good... as compared to the dreaded fetal fighting position that they are demonstrating in their examples.

You cannot land from a rotational throw shrimped into your opponent unless he has gone down with you... again not what they are talking about or using as their examples. The closest you can do is to land on your back- i.e. the "judo" way.

In case it isn't clear, when I post, I like to present only what I know and do, I'm neither responsible for nor need to defend what others do....

If you call what we do "shrimping" , well, actually, we think of it that way also, but, once again, I learned that method from SHUAI JIAO :D

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 07:17 PM

All I can say to this entire thread is it is ****ed useless.
Actually, it had the potential for a pretty valuable piece of information.
Funny how everyone missed it, though.

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 07:21 PM

Actually, it had the potential for a pretty valuable piece of information.
Funny how everyone missed it, though.

Well, what I got out of it is with SC throws I don't always want to stick my arm out.

I think that was pretty valuable.

Also, that most people who do SC don't really know a lot about different branches of SC or much about Judo. That's also pretty valuable, although from my prior SC experience it was pretty obvious they didn't know anything about Judo.

Oh, well.

(Also that I guess to meet lkfmdc I'm not going to be able to do it in Seattle).

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 07:26 PM

Actually, it had the potential for a pretty valuable piece of information.
Funny how everyone missed it, though.

Even way back when I was doing Shuai Jiao I got a sense that they tended to by very isolated from the rest of the grappling world. HIstorically, and culturally, they had a big chip on their shoulder against Judo (sort of understandable when you take into account Japanese cultural imperialism in Taiwan)... but still, they lost perspective because of it

In 1997 I did a festival for all combat sports, a dismal failure :o too early for it's time, no one understood the idea of getting together to share stuff and cross train, with the exception of James Chin's Shuai Jiao guys who ended up working out with Scott Sonnen's sambo guys. I wish we'd have taped that, it was a great moment in martial arts history ;)

Too many MMA types will look past Shuai Jiao because it's "Chinese".... I mean, look at how they treat San Da! :eek:

That's too bad also, Shuai Jiao has some great stuff to contribute

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 07:32 PM

Too many MMA types will look past Shuai Jiao because it's "Chinese".... I mean, look at how they treat San Da! :eek:

That's too bad also, Shuai Jiao has some great stuff to contribute

If I had to characterize the difference between SC and Judo it would be ... counters and falling.

IMHO Judo doesn't teach much in the way of counters and SC doesn't much teach how to fall.

Anyways, it's kindof pointless discussing it. So I guess lkfmdc you're on vacation now.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 07:45 PM

My abiliity or inability to do something as a single individual doesn't really have much relevance, does it? No, I'm not a BJJ black belt, nor a pro fighter, nor a champion. I'm just a guy who trains people, some of which compete. If you're position is that you are above us all, and can't possibly be wrong, then there really is no discussion is there?.

You were using your personal experience in your original post. If that was a valid argument that would make my greater personal experience more valid.

I just told you, we don't turn "away" from our opponent, we turn TOWARD them..
However, it looks like both our experiences leads us to the same conclusion. As I said, looks like we are on the same page.

Let's say you do O-Soto gari, I am falling backward (for lack of better description, I am NOT good at internet technique desciptions)... I basicly "sit" and pull my legs in, cover my head IF I CAN (never said it was always possible)... I thus end up "pulling guard" or I can kick at them if they stay standing....
That's not what the too deadly guys were demonstrating or advocating. They were saying it is better to land on your side fetaled up away from your opponent rather than landing on your back.

I guess we'll have to disagree. One man's low percentage is another man's high percentage. Stuff that the Japanese felt was low percentage or near impossible the Russians with Sambo background pulled off (and still do) with astounding frequency in Judo.
That's the difference between the too deadly for combat and the Sambo guys. The Sambo guys go out and do it in open venues.

I can make a shoulder throw (ippon seoi nage) into an arm break pretty easily if I want to. I think "morote seoi nage" (?) or two handed shoulder throw can be used to dump someone onto their head pretty easily

Dumping someone on thier head is far from deadly... happens in wrestling, Judo, Sambo and MMA all the time

I can make a shoulder throw (ippon seoi nage) into an arm break pretty easily if I want to.
Really? How many times have you used that throw to break someone's arm?

You realize that would be a great way to immediately win a MMA bout and is perfectly legal, right? However, you don't see it being done... and it's not because it is too deadly.

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 07:49 PM

Dumping people on their head right can cause problems if they don't know how to handle it, especially if you have their hands wrapped up.

Guy I knew got paralyzed from just such an event during a drunken evening of rough-housing.

Anyways, two things disturb me, which is that I can't meet lkfmdc (not that I deserve it or anything), and why would anybody in their right mind vacation in Seattle, what with all the rain and everything. ??? (Although it didn't rain much today or yesterday, for a change).

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 07:55 PM

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 08:00 PM

I guess you have me on ignore, lkfmdc. Oh, well. Hey, while you're in Seattle you might want to check out AMC Pankration in Kirkland, that's where some pro fighters train.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 08:12 PM

I've never said I was much of a competitor, and there were't really MMA events in the Eastern US back in the 80's when I was sort of semi-active.... but I still spar and roll, etc a lot. I've gotten resisting people in the position to do the arm bar throw, all I had to do was turn to complete it. I didn't have to break their arm any more than I have to break their arm doing a kimura or Juji to know that I COULD
Breaking someone's arm while throwing them is much harder to do when throwing than when you have someone under control (i.e. an arm bar on the ground). Getting a break from a throw is almost always accidental. If people could purposefully get breaks from throws, you would see that all the time in MMA and sub-grappling.

HOwever, I do think some things are more dangerous to practice and do in competition, and that doesn't mean they don't work. HOw often do people spar full out with unpadded elbows? Or with elbows at all? Even in Thailand, elbows are for the most part done on pads and bags, not in sparring, yet they certainly work.
They work because they use them for real in competition.

They also work because they can be used full contact with elbow pads. Just like throws work because they can be practiced on mats.

They wouldn't work if they weren't done in these ways. Just like guys who don't practice their throws on mats or don't ever use them for real can't really make their throws work.

Throwing someone onto their head may not KILL THEM (ie "deadly") but on concrete it certainly is going to make for a bad day
Landing any throw on concrete is not good news for your opponent. That's one reason why grappling is good for self-defense.

However, you can't just choose to throw someone on their head, unless you absolutely and completey outclass them. Throwing people on their heads is perfectly legal in wrestling. I challenge you to enter an open freestyle or Greco wrestling tournament and see if you can just throw people on their heads.

Actually, here's an even better one for you. Since you are now doing BJJ, enter the novice division of the next sub-grappling tourney in your area and see how many guys you can land on their heads.

You can also try to break their arms while you are throwing them if you like, as that is allowed also.

Let us know how that works out for you... and be sure to post the video

As for the turning AWAY thing, it seems like a BEGINNER mistake when you curl up like that, I have a clip where one of my students even does it during one of the seminars, and he's intermediate! They curl up but don't keep control of their body. It doesn't make the technique any less valid that people can screw it up
That's not what the "too deadly" crew was saying.

shuaichiao

12-29-2006, 08:14 PM

LOL @ the deadly "combat" stuff again. Weren't you the one who said it was too hard to switch up the way you train into "for real" mode if they are different? When it comes to throwing, anyone who has gone against halfway skilled and resisting opponents knows that you can't just choose to land someone in a more "combative" way. It's hard enough to get the throw or takedown in the first place.

That's why most people choose to focus on one or ther other and it's not about making a choice. The mechanics change, the throw changes and the landing changes.

BTW, there are no rules in wrestling that encourage safe takedowns and throws, such as your imagined ones in judo.

Are you freakin kidding me? Wrestling doesn't even allow you to slam the guy to the mat in any throw. the call people for excessive force all the time. Have you been watching the pros again.

shuaichiao

12-29-2006, 08:19 PM

The whole basis of Kano's development of Judo was to get rid of that B.S. It's too bad some of it has crept back in..

Do you just make this crap up. The whole basis of Kano's development of judo was to create a safe sport that could be implemented inot the Japanese school system starting at a young age.

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 08:23 PM

Are you freakin kidding me? Wrestling doesn't even allow you to slam the guy to the mat in any throw. the call people for excessive force all the time.
Bwhahahahaha!!!!!

What wrestling are you doing or watching?

Maybe your local high school kids might get called for this, but even then it is rare.

Have you ever seen a collegiate or international freestyle or Greco match?

Have you heard about back arch throws such as the suplex?
The suplex is designed to land both you and your opponent on his head.

I regularly compete in sub-grappling. Every throw and take down is allowed in these. You can land your opponent anywhere you want and slam away to your heart's content on takedowns. You can even do your dangerous "combat" arm breaks on the way down.

What events do you compete in again?

Oh, that's right... you don't because you are too deadly and you might kill someone with your lethal kung fu throwing techniques.

Of course this does beg the question:
How do you practice your deadly combat techniques?

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 08:26 PM

Do you just make this crap up. The whole basis of Kano's development of judo was to create a safe sport that could be implemented inot the Japanese school system starting at a young age.
Bwahahahaahaha!!!

You must be joking.

Did you miss the whole part regarding his Judo vs. Jujutsu challenge?

The school thing/personal development/cultural thing came later.

lkfmdc

12-29-2006, 09:23 PM

Do you just make this crap up. The whole basis of Kano's development of judo was to create a safe sport that could be implemented inot the Japanese school system starting at a young age.

I'm afraid this is wrong information, in fact it seems you've confused the development of the Pinan (Heian) kata that WERE designed for school kids (in OKINAWA) with judo history

Kano's judo had written rules on how to engage in a challenge match and teh now famous Judo vs Jiujitsu challenge actually resulted in a few DEATHS :eek:

Knifefighter

12-29-2006, 09:30 PM

Apparently he has his wrestling confused with something else also.

Knifefighter

12-30-2006, 12:05 AM

Oh, yeah.... one more thing on the arm break B.S.

Do you think people would resort to jumping upside down and doing flying armbars if they could just take the arm during takedowns and throws?

unkokusai

12-30-2006, 12:33 AM

Bwhahahahaha!!!!!

What wrestling are you doing or watching?

Maybe your local high school kids might get called for this, but even then it is rare.

Have you ever seen a collegiate or international freestyle or Greco match?

?

Actually, in college (folkstyle) you can get called for a slam pretty easily. You're thinking of freestyle/greco rules.

shuaichiao

12-30-2006, 06:23 AM

Bwhahahahaha!!!!!

What wrestling are you doing or watching?

Maybe your local high school kids might get called for this, but even then it is rare.

Have you ever seen a collegiate or international freestyle or Greco match?

Have you heard about back arch throws such as the suplex?
The suplex is designed to land both you and your opponent on his head.

I competed up to the college level. Excessive force was always against the rules and so were straight over suplays that put you on your head. The reason you hardly ever see it called is because the people competing know the rules and follow them. I've seen excessive force called in the olympics as well.

There is no such thing as a throw that's too deadly to use. A person who has experience with falls can twist them selves into a good position as they fall but the average guy and even some grapplers who aren't used to those throws wouldn't.

shuaichiao

12-30-2006, 06:40 AM

Bwahahahaahaha!!!

You must be joking.

Did you miss the whole part regarding his Judo vs. Jujutsu challenge?

The school thing/personal development/cultural thing came later.

Yes, originally Kano was a ju jitsu guy. Ju jitsu would try for throws under numerous strategies. Kano found that he was most successful when creating an offbalance before the throw and broke from tradition and began teaching that one should always offbalance before attempting a throw. His original ju jitsu style took offense to his changing their methods and claiming his way was better. This led to challenge matches and later after judokas won many of the challenge matches other ju jitsu styles challenged them as well. This led to him formalising challenge match rules. Later he developed judo to become a safe sport.

His creation of judo which still taught all the throws of ju jitsu as well as all of the joint locks and atemi had nothing to do with eliminating all the B.S. as you claimed.

His development of judo led to him refining it to be a safe sport that could be taught even to kids. This also had nothing to do with eliminating all the B.S. as you claimed. If anything this is where all the too deadly to use crap began.

shuaichiao

12-30-2006, 06:43 AM

Oh, yeah.... one more thing on the arm break B.S.

Do you think people would resort to jumping upside down and doing flying armbars if they could just take the arm during takedowns and throws?

There are two types of people who use these flying armbars. the ones who like to show off and the ones who suck at standup and get desperate to take it to the ground.

lkfmdc

12-30-2006, 08:29 AM

Oh, yeah.... one more thing on the arm break B.S.

Do you think people would resort to jumping upside down and doing flying armbars if they could just take the arm during takedowns and throws?

why do some people jump guard when they can get a takedown? Why are Kosen rules different than Olympic rules?

Knifefighter

12-30-2006, 10:36 AM

why do some people jump guard when they can get a takedown? Why are Kosen rules different than Olympic rules?
LOL... people jump guard because they CAN'T get the takedown... usually because the opponent is better in this area.

Takedowns are one to two points in sub grappling. Jumping to guard is often -1 point. In BJJ, jumping to guard is not penalized, but a takedown is still one point.

People jump to guard because they can't get their takedown points and are afraid the opponent will score.

Knifefighter

12-30-2006, 10:43 AM

OK... here's a challenge for both of you.

Enter the next sub grappling tourney in your area where all throws are legal. See if you can break someone's arm with a takedown.

Get back to me with the video.

Oh, yeah... if your opponent gets the throw on you instead, make sure to include the footage of how your fetal landing works out for you, since there doesn't seem to be any video evidence of this being used by anyone else.

lkfmdc

12-30-2006, 10:49 AM

LOL... people jump guard because they CAN'T get the takedown... usually because the opponent is better in this area.

Takedowns are one to two points in sub grappling. Jumping to guard is often -1 point. In BJJ, jumping to guard is not penalized, but a takedown is still one point.

People jump to guard because they can't get their takedown points and are afraid the opponent will score.

Not sure what you are laughing about? In some instances, yes, it is becaue they can't get a takedown, in others, just because that is their strategy. The "dragging" rule in Judo isn't because it isn't effective, it's because it isn't exciting! It's a different strategy. NO better or worse.

It increasingly seems that you see things as you want to see them and believe it impossible there are other things out there than what you've seen. That makes for boring discussion, sorry

Knifefighter

12-30-2006, 11:17 AM

Not sure what you are laughing about? In some instances, yes, it is becaue they can't get a takedown, in others, just because that is their strategy. The "dragging" rule in Judo isn't because it isn't effective, it's because it isn't exciting! It's a different strategy. NO better or worse.

It increasingly seems that you see things as you want to see them and believe it impossible there are other things out there than what you've seen. That makes for boring discussion, sorry
I'm laughing that you think people with better takedown skills than their opponent would jump to guard if thier goal is to win the match. That is the stragegy for people with not very good takedowns or someone who is going against someone with better takedown skills.

I'm always open to see new things. However, see is the operant word here. I can't see it if people are just sitting around hypothesizing about how they work. Hence, the reason to see the video of your submission matches where you are making this stuff work.

lkfmdc

12-30-2006, 02:21 PM

I don't think that I've said anything in this thread (or others) that is unreasonable or beyond belief. I think I state reasonable things based upon my experiences not only of my own performance but of students and of promoting events over the years

Absolutes are generally destined to failure. I don't like "deadly" but I think you can say without sounding silly that some techniuqes are more dangerous than others

Are throws "always" going to break something or KO someone? NO. Does it mean it is impossible to happen? A good example would be Frank Shamrock vs Zinoviev (xp?) who got KO'd with a throw. I've seen a few throw KO's in San Da over the years. Then you have Randleman throwing Fedor and Fedor rolling over and submitting him like he just got out of bed on sunday morning :eek:

Flying arm bars and guard jumps are techniques of a certain game, no better no worse than other approaches. Sometimes it works, other times not. Similarly it isn't unreasonable to have in your "tool kit" some high impact throws that MIGHT KO or break something. If they are your ONLY technique you probably are in for a bad time, but to dismiss them totally is equally mis-guided

If I can find some footage to back this up, I'll point you torward it

lkfmdc

12-30-2006, 02:41 PM

SifuAbel

12-31-2006, 11:36 AM

It increasingly seems that you see things as you want to see them and believe it impossible there are other things out there than what you've seen. That makes for boring discussion, sorry

:confused: You're just discovering this now?

Knifefighter

12-31-2006, 11:40 AM

San Da format, not MMA, but a resisting alive opponent, a pro Thai boxer from Thailand, so dangerous to be sure, if not necessarily a grappler... but did we restrict the range of discussion to be what works on a grappler only?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6MnGc2sAtk

2:12 mark there is a throw very much like the one John Wang posted that you said was impossible to do in an alive setting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0RRqR8y9tU

I think you are misunderstanding my points. I never said these were low percentage throws... they aren't, as they happen all the time. No one who grapples realistically would claim them to be low percentage.

My point with that throw was that you cannot throw the opponent in a way that he cannot break the fall, as this is what YKW was claiming. As that clip demonstrates, it is very easy for the opponent to break the impact by extending out and using his arms to break the fall- exactly what the person being thrown did there.

One of my points is that, unless you have both the opponent's arms controlled and trapped and also follow him down to the floor, you cannot throw your opponent without him being able to break the impact of the throw. YKW was claiming he could do that with his "fireman's" throw, which, as you can see from the clip, is clearly not the case.

My other point is that there are really no such thing as special premeditated "combat" throws, unless you want to count the ones that are already being done in almost all grappling competitions.

PangQuan

01-02-2007, 11:04 AM

SevenStar

01-02-2007, 07:24 PM

Yes, originally Kano was a ju jitsu guy. Ju jitsu would try for throws under numerous strategies. Kano found that he was most successful when creating an offbalance before the throw and broke from tradition and began teaching that one should always offbalance before attempting a throw. His original ju jitsu style took offense to his changing their methods and claiming his way was better. This led to challenge matches and later after judokas won many of the challenge matches other ju jitsu styles challenged them as well. This led to him formalising challenge match rules. Later he developed judo to become a safe sport.

His creation of judo which still taught all the throws of ju jitsu as well as all of the joint locks and atemi had nothing to do with eliminating all the B.S. as you claimed.

His development of judo led to him refining it to be a safe sport that could be taught even to kids. This also had nothing to do with eliminating all the B.S. as you claimed. If anything this is where all the too deadly to use crap began.

"Many martial arts were practiced in Japan during its feudal age: the use of the lance, archery, swordsmanship and many more. Jujutsu was one such art. Also called taijutsu and yawara, it was a system of attack that involved throwing, hitting, kicking, stabbing, slashing, choking, bending and twisting limbs, pinning an opponent, and defenses against these attacks. Although jujutsu's techniques were known from the earliest times, it was not until the latter half of the sixteenth century that jujutsu was practiced and taught systematically. During the Edo period (1603-1868,) it developed into a complex art taught by the masters of a number of schools. In my youth I studied jujutsu under many eminent masters. Their vast knowledge, the fruit of years of diligent research and rich experience, was of great value to me. At that time, each man presented his art as a collection of techniques. None perceived the guiding principle behind jujutsu.

When I encountered differences in the teaching of techniques, I often found myself at a loss to know which was correct. This led me to look for an underlying principle in jujutsu, one that applied when one hit an opponent as well as when one threw him. After a thorough study of the subject, I discerned an a1l-pervasive principle: to make the most efficient use of mental and physical energy. With this principle in mind, I again reviewed all the methods of attack and defense I had learned, retaining only those that were in accordance with the principle. Those not in accord with it I rejected, and in their place I substituted techniques in which the principle was correctly applied. The resulting body of technique, which I named judo to distinguish it from its predecessor, is what is taught at the Kodokan. "

that is a quote by kano...