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toddbringewatt
09-04-2001, 05:05 AM
Would anyone care to comment on this?

Is this something exclusive to David Carr's Los Angeles School of Transformation Arts?

I pulled it off his website.

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Pre-Birth Systems
by Daniel Carr
Introduction
Most Chinese Martial practitioners have no idea that the complete systems of Tai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing Yi Ch'uan, BaGua Ch'ang, and Shaolin Kung Fu are actually organized into a well defined, three-tiered system. The three levels of this system-
Foundation: Pre-Birth/Pre-Heaven,
Form: Birth/Heaven, and
Application: Post-Birth/Post-Heaven,
provide an aspirant with a clearly defined process that insures success in transforming the body, learning martial techniques, and applying them in fighting situations.
Unfortunately, through generations of mistrust and secrecy, many Kung Fu Masters have chosen to hide these complete systems from their students. Specific portions of the system, the most critical portions, have literally become secrets, much like "trade secrets" in any other industry. The result of this prolonged hoarding of knowledge has been rather mediocre results in the way of contemporary Masters and their students- Chinese Martial Artists with relatively low levels of Chi and poor fighting skills.


Why Not Share With The Students?
The immediate question this situation generates is why would a Master hold these "secrets" back from his students. The answer is, hold your breath, that not all Kung Fu Masters are truly enlightened beings. In fact, contrary to the popular myth, becoming a martial arts Master does not mean that one is emotionally or psychologically evolved (does anyone assume this of Mike Tyson?...read The Eight Levels of Raja Yoga" for further clarification).
Holding these secrets back insures the Master of superiority over his students forever. In this situation, the students stare at the Master in wonder, asking, "How does he do that so well?", assuming that he has some God-given talent that they don't possess. The student resigns himself to live in the Master's shadow, hoping someday for some sort of breakthrough.

This bodes well for the Master, as these students will either always remain his students or, if they are bold enough to quit after years of frustration, they will not present a competitive threat to him economically if they decide to open or join another school. One name for this phenomena is "Iron Rice Bowl," the metaphor conveying the image of a student permanently holding up this incredibly heavy economic offering to the teacher.


Are There "Naturals"?
With respect to the transformation that a human body must undergo to be successful at Chinese Martial Arts, there are no naturals. The system is referred to as "Pre-Birth" for one reason as being that the system intends to return the body to a level of purity that one had before birth. This requires a systematic cleansing and restructuring of the body, one that goes way beyond genetic predisposition.
However, there is one situation in which a Chinese Martial Artist can achieve this and not really be fully aware of how it was done. "Birth" level Shaolin Kung Fu, namely the "Forms" of the system, if practiced perfectly before puberty, can transform the body in this way. An argument can be made that Shaolin was designed specifically for this reason- namely to change the internal structure of the boys that were accepted at the Temple. After puberty, though, this method fails to work, for reasons that will be explained later.


What Does The System Do?
To understand what this system accomplishes, it is necessary to focus on a specific meaning of a word that holds very little interest at present for most contemporary martial artists- "Yoga." "Yoga" literally translates to "union," which has many connotations for physical, psychological, and spiritual understandings.
For our purposes, we will choose to look at the physiological and anatomical connotations of the word: namely, how a system of exercise completely restructures a body so that the anatomy can support enhanced bio-electric flow within the central nervous system. For this to happen,

the breathing motion must become powerful,
the body must "unify" structurally and muscularly,
the three curves of the spine must open up,
the organs must be purged of toxins,
the minds ability to focus must be perfected,
the "shen" that lies dormant in the kidneys must be activated, and
the brain's ability to absorb energy/Chi must be enhanced.
It all sounds like a very tall order, but not for someone who understands the true meaning of "Yoga" and can apply it to their martial art practice.
To be continued....
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Thanks for any and all replys.


Sincerely,

Todd Bringewatt
:)

may the force be with you

prana
09-04-2001, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The immediate question this situation generates is why would a Master hold these "secrets" back from his students. The answer is, hold your breath, that not all Kung Fu Masters are truly enlightened beings. [/quote]

Technically correct, but which master is enlightened ? The 18 Arahats, or Bodhidarma ? Saying this, is ignoring that the secret practises of certain Qi-Gong exercises are retained to protect the student from self injury and over-intellectualizing on their own. This is to protect the less wise from themselves, or simply those who are not ready. Some train before reaching a certain milestone, exercises which they have not yet perfected causing them bad site effects, emotional misery etc.

But I guess some students, hold your breath, have not learnt the art of humility. To recognise that the master should become the manifestation of guru the student wishes to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This bodes well for the Master, as these students will either always remain his students or, if they are bold enough to quit after years of frustration, they will not present a competitive threat to him economically if they decide to open or join another school. One name for this phenomena is "Iron Rice Bowl," the metaphor conveying the image of a student permanently holding up this incredibly heavy economic offering to the teacher.
[/quote]
Many eastern teachings also emphasise the proper studying of a master before asking for initiation from him/her as a guru. This is a premiliminary. The student then is to pratise humility to the master once initiated. However, if the student finds after initiation, that the master is impure, the student is allowed to forget the guru, but refrain from bad thoughts about the guru, as this is only self destructive. But taking this choice without much knowledge (or discriminating wisdom) one might miss the essence of the teachings of a great master. As many a great masters teachings arent often unpleasent or difficult to understand. It is like teaching a fish the ability to walk on land. The metaphor that it be safer to teach the fish the step by step approach, instead of injuring itself on the process.

The person who made this comment MAY have come acorss as if himself/herself is highly insecure about his own master, and the masters holding back a means to fill his disrespect for his/her teachings. Perhaps they just didnit understand the ways of Eastern teachers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the breathing motion must become powerful,
the body must "unify" structurally and muscularly,
the three curves of the spine must open up,
the organs must be purged of toxins,
the minds ability to focus must be perfected,
the "shen" that lies dormant in the kidneys must be activated, and
the brain's ability to absorb energy/Chi must be enhanced.
It all sounds like a very tall order, but not for someone who understands the true meaning of "Yoga" and can apply it to their martial art practice.
[/quote]
WHen he said yoga teaches unifying the body muscularly, I sure hope he didnt mean with weight training :P

No seriously, sounds like a marketing article.... but there is however much truth in it. He probably knows a fair bit about martial arts, but is writting an article as a form or PR (well at least his master seems to know much eastern philisophy)

Just sounded a little, .... I don't know, perhaps .. negative and somewhat prideful ?

YMS
09-04-2001, 06:36 AM
I agree with prana in that some secret practices are kept this way to protect the student as they are not ready physically or mentally to accept it.
From personal experience i have found my body was not ready for some qi gong exercises and i got damaged (nothing serious though) just a couple of weeks rest.

Nexus
09-04-2001, 06:53 AM
The good teacher holds nothing back except that which you are not ready for. In time, you learn what you need, and when you need something, you will find a means of learning it.

One who tries to master all things masters little, but one who truly masters a single thing understands mastery in all things.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

toddbringewatt
09-04-2001, 06:55 AM
Thank you for the recent replies. However, the question I am most interested in is, is this pre-birth system exclusive to Carr's school or are there others who have this knowledge?

Any pre-birth experts out there?

Whether it is secret or not or whether certain people decide to withold them from others is of little concern to me.

Though the past three posts were interesting indeed and I appreciate the response. Thanks guys. :)

may the force be with you

prana
09-04-2001, 07:11 AM
No it isn't extraoprdinarilu unique. I have witnessed many people here who knows or have come across these practises.

"Either your two side channels are open, and your central channel closed, or
your central channel open, and your two side channels closed.
These are the only alternatives..."
Lama Yeshe quoting Lama Tsongkhapa

Sum Guye
09-04-2001, 08:45 AM
Personally, I'm not into esoteric explanations of martial things. I am however, certain that the terms 'pre-birth and post-birth' have different meanings when used in different contexts.

In fighting arts:
Pre-birth means using a technique to stop a punch early (before its reached its full potential) Example: Fighter A throws a hook at fighter B. Fighter B moves in and stops A's punch at A's bicep before A fully launches. If B's structure is correct, A's will be slightly off balance and will have to change his game plan.

Post-birth would be, Fighter A throws a hook and fighter B moves just enough to let the punch slip by- then checks A's elbow (after the hook has reached its potential).

(it's hard to explain briefly in text- but you get the idea. Most teachers who delve into deep connections with ions, chi and ancient religious symbols usually can't 'use' internal in a fight (but they talk a good game).

Fighter's explain things in basic language of principles of movement, structure, balance and endurance.)

kungfu cowboy
09-04-2001, 12:29 PM
I think some BS mixed with a little truth (not the secret trinity stuff), and of course a desire for some $$$.

kungfu cowboy
09-04-2001, 12:30 PM
School of Transformation Arts? :rolleyes:

mantis108
09-04-2001, 07:44 PM
It is Post-Modern Choy Seuy Mckwoon stuff. It is basically Yoga blended with Taosit concept(s) repackaged as demystified "art". It is based on the Yoga perception of reality that the world exist and is real to help us to reach for the higher plateau. Also, I believe this is basically fanning the flame for more misconceptions of CMA or TCM. If it is for health and fitness purpose (not sure to what end this leads to), perphas it would provide some alternative benefits. Otherwise I am affraid ... Well, to each their own. I am not saying Yoga and Taoism are entirely different animals. I am saying when presenting a "new" product, please make sure all the bases are covered and don't jump all over the place with the presentation.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

Repulsive Monkey
09-06-2001, 10:37 PM
I think that diatribe bears worth of re-reading and re-considering what his motivations are for trying to enlighten all us lot in the Internal/External arts community why we've been misunderstanding it for so long. He fails to understand some errors in his eloquent speech. Shen in the Kidneys where did he get such an absurd and incorrect idea like that from? Shen resides in the Heart and the Heart Blood. Jing essence is found to have residency in the Kidneys.