Feeman Ong's training Formulas saved. [Archive]

Piercinghammer

12-15-2006, 01:17 PM

Hello all:

I have noticed threads for a while discussing Master Ong. I was in his system some years ago and moved
on to other things after joining the military. One of the things I did was study Chinese herbs. I moved back to the Akron area and found that Master Ong had passed on.When I was asking around I made mention of my
herbal training, several people started giving me their stashes of herbs to look at. I was actually able to identify all the medicines. Some things took me several years. It was kind of a hobby study when I had nothing going on. I cataloged all of the ingredients of all the formulas given too me. The Big hand hot and cold, small hand, bruise herb, there where two types of this. One was a deep bruise, big body liniment, big body pill, small body pill, cut herb, internal injury pill and the endurance herb. Some of the ingredients like bear paw are not really available anymore, My friends in Chinatown just kind of laugh when I ask.

I have seen hundreds of formulas, these are good, a twist on some other traditional shaolin formulas. But I have seen better formulas also.
I enjoyed working on them. I will not publish these formulas. I know that these particular formulas can no longer be obtained. As a friendly gesture I thought I would make a post and mention to students of Master Ongs martial art that I am making these training formulas available to them. I keep hundreds of lbs. of herbs at my kung fu studio in Akron and fill orders for iron palm medicine and dit da jow for people on a regular basis.
Some of the people that read this will say "impossible" some of the herbs where ground up
Well, I'm good! it's hard to hide stuff from me.
I will also mention whoever the person was who did prepared the herbs was a craftsman.
you can e-mail me at MantisBxr@aol.com

Thanks

Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong branch
Choy li fut, Hung sing branch
Yang tai chi

MonkeyKingUSA

12-15-2006, 02:41 PM

Mike,
Nice to see you post here!

Friends,
I have known Mike for twenty years and he is the most knowledgeable Chinese herbalist that I know. My students and I use his dit da jow for Iron Palm training. His rates are really reasonable too.

Richard A. Tolson
http://www.angrymonkeyfist.com

kal

12-15-2006, 02:49 PM

Hello,
Thanks for the interesting post.
Would this Iron Palm medicine be the same as that used by the Green Dragon teachers (Gene Chicoine and John Allen)? I believe that they were students of Master Ong at one point.

Piercinghammer

12-15-2006, 03:44 PM

Mukei

12-15-2006, 11:24 PM

Mike ! your the Man ......

Good to see you on . I'm Happy you have made the time to come on the FORUM, and Set the record straight . I support you and your school ..... I hope to see on more often . Mukei

kal

12-16-2006, 07:16 AM

kal:
In a way yes and in a way no. After the break up of Allen and Chicoine from master Ong they where cut off from the supplier of this type of medicine. They had a supply the could use for a few months. This was in the mid to late 70's. Chicoine did some traveling and found an herbalist named Peter Chan from Chan Ning Tong in San Francisco. Mr Chicoine tried to have master Ong's formulas duplicated but it didn't happen. Peter Chan had his own formulas that Chicoine and Allen used until the early 90's when Mr Chan retired and closed his shop. Peter Chan was a dear friend of mine and passed these formulas too me. they are very good also. Since then the formulas that have come my way from these groups of course have been taken apart weighed and cataloged. The formulas that they use today are different from say 1994. They are good but they also seem to be trying to imitate the old formulas of Master Ong's. They dont quite have it.
So Green dragons and Allen's formulas are different, but I think they still love the old formulas, as do I.

Thanks
Mike Biggie

Many thanks for the quick reply.

I remember an old iron palm video from Green Dragon back in the 1980s. Mr Choicoine emphasised several times that the formula needed to follow their iron plam training was highly secret. He mentioned 2 or 3 times about the lengths he was taking to keep it secret, including sourcing it from three separate suppliers (so that no single supplier could find it out) as well as grinding th herbs to powder to disguise them. Given the timescale you mentioned, would this mean that they were referring to Peter Chan's formula? I vaguely remember hearing that their formula either came from or was modified by a Master Chang. Would this be Chang Dung Sheng of Shuai Chiao?

Piercinghammer

12-16-2006, 12:09 PM

kal:

Video tape from the 80's would be Peter Chans formula, If I remember correctly the closing date of Chan Ning Tong was maybe 94-95. I have no Idea who the new supplier is, but I have looked at Chicoine's new medicine a dozen times its a large formula similar to Master Ong's but overdone, far more herbs in it than are needed. Actually like two formulas combined. Its Ok. I have seen different grades of quality in certain herbs
among the dozen or so batches. The idea of having different suppliers fill the formula to keep it secret. I can't really see that as accurate. The formulas are not that big a deal, most Chinese pharmacists don't care what
your dit da jow formula is. They are generally busy treating people with health problems of some sort and that is their main priority. The statement about splitting the formula up, is more for public consumption.The"ooh, ahh", factor. People eat that up. Nothing too far out in the formulas. Everything in their formulas I keep several lbs of. However Peter Chans is very different and I consider it a true iron Palm formula. Very good if not one of the best.

As far as Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng. I don't believe he any interest Iron palm. If the formula was Grandmaster Changs , there would not have been a change in the 90's it would still be the same formula as prior to 94-95. not a different formula when a new supplier was found The two formulas are completely different.
As far as the Green dragon group, they where getting the same formula and the change up time was the same. Frankly I have lost interest in looking at their formulas. Just remember the people that run the world could not keep the secrets of the atomic bomb from leaking out. Do you really think the recipe for a liniment will be kept under more secrecy.

I guess the reason for mentioning this on a forum like this is the thought, as all of these people become older and depart. Let everyone know there are people who have taken the time to keep track of things. I have refused to let things get lost.

Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang tai Chi

kal

12-16-2006, 01:53 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the additional info, and also for bringing a bit of down-to-earthness to this whole issue. Yes, in retrospect, the whole "ultimate secret formula" thing was probably a bit of marketing to give an "ooh ah" factor!
Also, if Green Dragon has been continually changing formulas (it sounds like they are on at least their third iteration from what you describe) then it is a bit strange for them to refer to their medicine as though it were the one and only True Formula.

You're right about the large number of herbs in Mr. Chicoine's medicine. One of the things I vividly remember is him stating that you need at least 20 herbs and used to emphasise the large number that Green Dragon used.

Something else I would like to ask you if you don't mind: Mr Chicoine used to write how an iron palm medicine needs to be dark brown, opaque, and very strong-smelling. Is this necessarily always the case? I have seen medicines in the past that were quite light in colour and were rather transparent too.

Thanks for coming on here and sharing some of your knowledge. I for one am grateful that some people refuse to let things die out or get lost.

Piercinghammer

12-20-2006, 02:16 PM

Kal:

The Idea of an iron Palm medicine needing to be dark and pungent isn't an absolute but it is a good general rule of thumb that I like to use. There are some reasons for the pungent part that most people are not aware of. The mind controls the chi. Iron palm training is such a slow repetitive process (or at least is should be)
over a period of time the odor of the herbs will trigger many of the things that are associated with its particular chigong without doing the chigong exercises. when I catch the odor of the formula I can feel all sorts of processes start happening that I have become familiar with while doing the Chigong for iron palm. In this regard some formulas are better than others. Dark in color is just due to a couple of tonic herbs.

Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang tai chi

ekaltenborn

12-21-2006, 07:09 AM

Very nice post Mike,

Keep spreadin' the word!...

kal

01-10-2007, 03:36 PM

kal:
In a way yes and in a way no. After the break up of Allen and Chicoine from master Ong they where cut off from the supplier of this type of medicine. They had a supply the could use for a few months. This was in the mid to late 70's. Chicoine did some traveling and found an herbalist named Peter Chan from Chan Ning Tong in San Francisco. Mr Chicoine tried to have master Ong's formulas duplicated but it didn't happen. Peter Chan had his own formulas that Chicoine and Allen used until the early 90's when Mr Chan retired and closed his shop. Peter Chan was a dear friend of mine and passed these formulas too me. they are very good also. Since then the formulas that have come my way from these groups of course have been taken apart weighed and cataloged. The formulas that they use today are different from say 1994. They are good but they also seem to be trying to imitate the old formulas of Master Ong's. They dont quite have it.
So Green dragons and Allen's formulas are different, but I think they still love the old formulas, as do I.

Thanks
Mike Biggie

Mike,
There is a seller on eBay called Shen Martial Arts (http://stores.ebay.com/SHEN-MARTIAL-ARTS) who sells a "Chan Ning Kong" dit da jow. Is this the same formula that you are referring to above? (Peter Chan formula?) And can you recommend Shen Martial Arts as a genuine producer of these medicines?

Piercinghammer

01-10-2007, 09:00 PM

Kal:

Shen purchased a couple of bags of dit da jow and Iron palm medicine from me a while back with permission to re-sell. So yes I can recommend Shen as a producer, because I made them.

Thanks

Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang Tai Chi

iron tiger

01-10-2007, 09:18 PM

So Green dragons/Allen's formulas are different

Correct.

As far as Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng. I don't believe he any interest Iron palm

Incorrect.

Piercinghammer

01-10-2007, 10:00 PM

Iron Tiger:

Please fill me in on what your take on this subject is. I mentioned that I did not believe that Grand Master
Chang had "much interest" in iron palm, let me go further. Being that it is considered a low level skill and that his body and forearms were already conditioned far beyond that of the average practitioner. His skill with his Hsing i, Taichi and Shuai chaio,where exceptional. He himself... beyond this type of training.

would love to hear what you have to say

Mike Biggie

iron tiger

01-11-2007, 01:42 PM

piercinghammer:

I mentioned that I did not believe that Grand Master
Chang had "much interest" in iron palm

Roger, hammer, I copied that. Although I did quote your exact words.

Iron palm (all 4 levels; though some teach 2 etc), correctly taught, practiced (this includes using a properly formulated medicine, which is *THE* key to success in IP), and applied, is not a low level skill at all.

Huge topic, though. But there's a reason many masters of old considered open-handed techniques to be among the most advanced skills a fighter could have at his or her disposal.

Many would disagree also with the implication of the way you seem to be defining the word "conditioning" (of Chang's body & forearms, for instance) in the context of the Old Ways of "Classical" Chinese MA training.

Also worth noting that the protection provided by Iron Vest can't be penetrated with beginner's palm; you have to have advanced level to do that---IF you had correct training on the authentic Vest (very internal, generally requiring herbal assist, ie, the little "dynamite pills" taken for the first 100 days, primarily cleansing of a specialized variety...ie you ain't gonna find these on any health food store shelf, even one in Chinatown) in the first place.

Chang was highly skilled in IP (and Ong was no slouch) and used it to win many of his challenge matches (yes, I know some websites state to the contrary--that he trained his elbows instead of his palms, for example--but according to everything I know that is not accurate) quickly. He passed this training (at least some of the most crucial aspects; maybe more, can't say with authority) on to Chicoine, as well as his own formula. Chicoine uses Chang's herbs, not Ong's; but I ain't going to get into that here.

Not going to comment on what Green Dragon's formula has in common with Chang's except that I would bet Allen has a few sources for ingredients of his own; and that I'd be highly skeptical of P. Chan's being the real thing. That's just an educated guess, though. But anyone who's seen their tape on Palm knows that Allen adds in some preparatory exercises that Chicoine doesn't cover (at least on the tape).

I also doubt either Chang, Allen, or Chicoine are using formulae which include superfluous ingredients. Likely, they just know more about what Iron Palm is supposed to do than the, if I may, "average" (maybe mainstream is a better word) kung fu student or instructor does. A *lot* more!

Among several other things, correct medicine will actually draw the chi out into the palms for use in fighting as well as for general health purposes. It also hardens the bones of the hands to an extremely unusual degree; they become very hard to injure.

Anyone who hasn't done some serious work on the Teet Sao set---Green Dragon does sell it, but I don't think it matters where you get it as long as you can; GD teaches it properly, though, whereas some others may not (ie this is NOT an ad for GD tapes but an advocacy for authentic Chinese MA training)---would be well advised to give it a whirl. It's a very beginning level iron palm training set. If you do it daily (after you learn it thoroughly) it will also draw the chi to the palms after enough reps over enough time (varies with the student, the state of his/her chi at the time of starting, eg) but without medicine etc; thereby giving one an idea of what true Palm training can do...and why it isn't a "low level" skill or form of training at all!

Huge, huge topic, piercinghammer...Tying in with what I said in my last post in the GD Studios thread about most students (and instructors) not really knowing what people like Chang were really capable of.

You can have really good success in Vest or Stone Warrior etc, though, without the use of herbs; whereas they are absolutely crucial to getting the results in Palm that a CMA student was historically supposed to expect---and get.

kal

01-12-2007, 02:44 PM

Among several other things, correct medicine will actually draw the chi out into the palms for use in fighting as well as for general health purposes. It also hardens the bones of the hands to an extremely unusual degree; they become very hard to injure.
.

This pulling the chi to the palms is something I have read Chicoine and Allen saying many times. Is this the most important part of a genuine iron palm medicine? Is this what differentiates it from the general purpose dit da jow medicines out there?

iron tiger

01-12-2007, 06:16 PM

Genuine Iron Palm medicine is pretty much totally unlike any kind of Jow.

Wolfgang Kruger

01-12-2007, 08:15 PM

Greetings Iron Tiger:
Just Curious if you have Trained with Master Chicoine Or Allen Personally?
Your Post Quotes Allen Word for word right out of his Training Tapes. Things like "Dynamite little Pills" for example.
Seems like you have watched Green Dragon material quite a bit!

Mike has trained with Chicoine and I can assure you when it Comes to Chinese Training Formulas, he is Quite Gifted and really knows his stuff. I've Known Mike for many years.I have trained Iron Palm and obtained Master Chicoines Iron Palm Medicine directly from him. I have broken down the Formula, and so has Mike.

Is it the End all Iron Palm Formula? Is it the Only Iron Palm Medicine to Pull Chi to the Palm? Thats Simple the Answer is no.

Greetings from Ohio!
-Wolfgang

iron tiger

01-13-2007, 10:42 AM

Just Curious if you have Trained with Master Chicoine Or Allen Personally

I was a Green Dragon student. Continued my study after another party turned me on to the fact that they had started a tapes division.

I've run into a few other ex-Allen/Chicoine/Ong etc students over the years, too.

Incidentally, are you the same 'Wolfgang' who had trained at Green Dragon in the early 80s or so, then left to join the military? Just curious...

Mike has trained with Chicoine and I can assure you when it Comes to Chinese Training Formulas, he is Quite Gifted and really knows his stuff

Well, since I have your personal "assurance"... ;)

I'm not questioning piercinghammer's skills at all. But he asked for my take, and I know there's a lot of misinformation---some of it deliberate---out there so I responded to the best of my knowledge & recollection & experience (guess that was another mistake, oh well).

But how long did Mike stay with Chicoine? That, of course, can make a big difference in how much hard info he was actually, ultimately privvy to, no? I mean, it sure seems like he was much more of an Ong student than one of Chicoine's.

I've known quite a few guys over the years who've claimed to've "trained with" Allen or Chicoine, fwiw, so there is some small basis for comparison & pov.

I have broken down the Formula, and so has Mike

Well, if you're absolutely certain that the formula you've analyzed is Chang's, okay. But if it's the same as Ong's stuff, then I'd be very skeptical.

I know a lot of people who say their medicine draws chi to the palms ETC...but they can't duplicate what Chicoine can do. Even when they can do most of what Ong could do.

I also know a lot of guys who say they've "done" arm grabs and Stone Warrior, etc, too; then I've watched them work out and about 75% of it they're just dogging it, ie they are NOT applying full tension from beginning to end, or holding a low enough stance, or doing the exercises the same way, either; and so on.

Your Post Quotes Allen Word for word right out of his Training Tapes. Things like "Dynamite little Pills" for example...Seems like you have watched Green Dragon material quite a bit

As covered in several other posts in the Green Dragon thread. Why would I use a term other than what my Sifu used? Should I've said "nitro herbs" or "megaplex caps"?

In my experience (& a few others') it's much more prudent to use Allen's own words and descriptions wherever possible, rather than be accused of twisting them and such.

Especially when I have guys who keep citing certain tapes in their/his posts to support something said, then in later posts this person raises questions, almost somewhat mockingly, at times (fwiw, he's also posted on the same subject on other boards), that were already answered in the tape he'd previously cited.

I've sat down and watched a sampling of their tapes with other guys in the past, including those Q&A tapes, and been astonished at how fast they are in turning his data inside out, or having the gist of it go completely past 'em.

Just part of where I'm coming from with that.

I have broken down the Formula, and so has Mike

And no one else has?

In fact, the manner the first post was made should raise several questions...for anyone who's actually had experience with the various formulas.

For example, he's making these herbs available with whose blessing (or assurance)? Or don't they care (because I sure don't. Fun to read, though)?

A fair couple of questions--no?

Some of the ingredients like bear paw are not really available anymore

Let alone getting the reptile hormone levels (& etc) or age of the bear paw correct based on those powders alone...

;)

Greetings from Ohio!

Bummer about those Buckeyes last Monday night!

Good luck in your work and training.

Mukei

01-14-2007, 01:00 AM

To Whom it may Concern. I Think I can correct the miss-understanding of some of the miss- interpreted topics. First off . I know for a fact. Grand Master Chang Was Not a Iron Palm practitioner . He Conditioned his Elbows . As His Training and conditioning was Very good . He did not need any Iron palm training . When he hit you, You knew it . He was Considered a National treasure for China . Your Right, He was Highly
Skilled.

# 2 Those So called little "dynamite pills" your relating to , I believe Were A Joke. They aided to allot of Kidney stones ( a major side effect from them) If anything they were a good Placebo. The Iron Vest is a good Exercise though .

# 3 60% of his Knowledge ( Grand Master Chang) was lost when he died . A lot is misplaced. Where did it Go?

#4 Iron Palm is Done By your most favorable Hand (90% Right Hand). That’s what is taught in both Schools ( Green Dragon & Ho Chun ) . The Formulas used are very good. Again Grand Master Chang Did not Alter them. He had no Formula . He did not need it . His Tai Chi, Shuai Jiao, and other Styles that he was known for was Superb. Mr. Chicoin can hit . I Have never Ever Seen GD do Anything like What Ho Chun would Do in the demo’s All Senior Students Broke Concrete By Far More then Green Dragon and Showed their Iron palm Power. All they Were Known For (Green Dragon) were their forms and weapons. Which allot of People Are not impressed with. As well as fine Quality of their Copy of a Copy VHS Tapes. The Quality is very bad. I was Watching Mr. Allen go threw Tai Chi and it Was Horrible. It was Very Bad. Enough said .

I Don’t know Who - Iron Tiger is but , those are the Facts . I was part of the Old school and I Was at Ho Chun at the Time When GM Chang Came to Mogador, Ohio. With the Police Escort and the whole nine yards. I was at the Seminars . I Remember GM Changs Visit, As well as the Material . I Met Mr. Allen and his Students, Including the women- roids, that were the big body builders. ( not impressed) . I remember allot of what was said. Its hard to believe it has been that long ago. However, I’m not impressed with the made up fairytales.
If you Wish to have more Facts of the Truth Let me know. I will be more then willing to Set the record Straight. Their has been many Miss - leading material made about GM Chang and its really sad.

Mukei

iron tiger

01-14-2007, 01:07 PM

MonkeyKingUSA

01-14-2007, 05:54 PM

Many of us here are familiar with Ong's dit da jow. Mike has worked hard to recreate the formula. Is it 100% the same? I do not know. However, I can attest to a few things:
1. Many of the ingredients are the same as those in Richard Pitt's jow which came from Gene Chicoine in his Hop Sing days. This I know from experience.
2. Those across the country who use Mike's jow swear by it.
3. Shen Martial Arts felt Mike's version was authentic enough to market it.
4. Some of the ingredients are very similar to Ark Y Wong's jow and Ku Yu Cheong's jow.
5. Mike is very anal (I mean that in a positive way). He is very precise in his Choy Li Fut and Seven Star Praying Mantis. I cannot believe he is any less precise in his study of herbalism.
6. Mike told me he had "cracked" the formula by taking Ong's formula apart piece by piece. He identified various components by sight, smell and/or taste. He also consulted with at least a couple of herbalists before he reproduced the formula.
Nuff' said.

Akronviper

01-14-2007, 09:58 PM

I never have heard that Chang did Iron Palm, I have heard of the elbows, but not from any one important. Chicoine had ecellent palm skills prior to meeting Chang. He may have given some insight or tips but that was it. Chang was very much into herbs and TCM so it would not be hard to belive he may have added a few herbs, but to be his formula is wrong.

Biggies reputation should be enough to make him a very credible person in this field. Chicoine states that Chang added a few herbs to the formula, who am I to say he did not. I do know that it works and is good jow and he must be doing something right because he has amazing palm skills.

Piercinghammer

01-14-2007, 10:06 PM

Iron Tiger:
Your posts raise the some interesting questions, But I'm sorry to say that having been around CMA for 35 years they tend to be the same nothing questions from that tend to be more protest than question. I' have heard it
all before. In this area of the country it is always by someone who has no idea what their talking about.
Somebody embellishing statements to try to hide what they "don't know". That does not fly with me.
I'm not trying to be insulting, but if you knew how many times I have had someone from one of the
local schools try to tell me what was what. Then to only be shown to know nothing of what they speak.
It gets old after a while.
Prime example... I had an instructor (kept nameless) from the old style, tell me that I would be able to duplicate all the formulas, but they would never be the same. I asked why? His reply was because
"the monks" made sure that a special venomous snake breathed on the herbs, and that was their secret.

What "F"ing color is the sky in your world? We have a received something of an education at one time or another as citizens here in the West. To even make a statement like that... I just had to smile. it was too much.
So You see, too me you are just an anonymous poster on an Internet forum, that in your statements
resemble many of the folks I have described, not to the same degree but I know that shuffle.

I'm not going to school you on an Internet forum on the basic study of Chinese herbs,their genus, preparation and alike. You can do your own homework.

I grew up around Chicoine, my father and he where friends, he was around my home, stopping by while on duty as a police officer, hell he even broke his hand in my garage showing off breaking bricks. I attended his
studio thru the 70's on and off until I could drive myself. He is where I found my love for CMA. I know his stories and embellishments also. Do I like him.. "Nope" do I have anything against him, not really.
Do I sell his Iron palm formula. Its his not mine! I've looked at it, its OK. I have it written down,but its not for sale to people. As a matter of fact I don't even care for it. Peter Chan's sure, anyone who wants it, they where gifts to me. Feemans, If his students would like his hand medicine or bruise herbs, sure thing. I worked long and hard on saving Feeman's formulas. His students didn't do a **** thing to keep them from getting lost. i.e. Al Wasil and Bob Kruger.
So I consider them mine now, and rest assured, I know them inside out. every fen, chien and liang.

I know the time lines on these formulas,and I knew where they where being filled. You can tell me Chang this and Chang that, and I'll tell you your just full of S**t. It's fine marketing on your part though. That's not to say that Chang Tung Sheng did not have formulas,or give formulas out...hell I have some. Or that he had the pharmacist tweak some iron palm formula for Allen or Chicoine, Perfectly believable.

My main reason for doing any of this is because, "lets face it" these guys all heading to Geezerville.
Ong died and didn't leave anything to anyone, what do you think the chances that the rest of the self absorbed old f@rts are to do anything different. I may be the only person ever to receive any formulas from
Gene in written Chinese, his students may have to go into his files after he dies. Not that they will have any idea what they are looking at or what to do with them.

I am forward and to the point, you ask a question or for an opinion, you will get it, and it will not be the
half a$$ stammering type of thing that you may be accustomed to from this area. I refuse to kiss A$$ of anybody here or elsewhere, which seems to be thing to do in CMA circles in the Akron area, and that's just
being honest. I've been a round too long and it galls me to have somebody put their HOODOO spin on everything. and everyone in the local area with 6 month of training seems to do that.

So here at the end of the day, we are all still Gentlemen, and we all return to our passion, train hard
and do our best at whatever we have chosen and look to see furthur than what weve been allowed to see.

And yes maybe next year the Buckeyes might not try so hard at disappointing everyone at the very end.

BTW: befeore I forget, I will mention that all of the students from the Green Dragon that I have come into contact with over the years have always been some of the most polite people I have met. Thats not Kissing A$$. thats just the truth.
some other folks in the area could ... take a little lesson in that behavior.

Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang tai chi

Mukei

01-14-2007, 10:22 PM

60% of all kung fu knowledge--some say as much as 70%--may have been lost with GM Chang's death, but indisputable is the fact that about 95% of the info in the above post is total bull.

Among many other points, Chang most certainly was trained in Iron Palm and he did have his own medicine.

:) Well ... You might think so hahahah... But Like I said .. I was their . I was their when the subject came up About his Training . If He Did, That means They would of been useing it and Discussing it and of Course Everybody Would of been useing it . From Day one... and It Would of been In all the Magazines and Everything else. But Like I said . He Did Not !!!!! But Everyone Continued With Big Hand . With out the Bear Paw. hahahahahaha... Who are you Brother ? If you know so much ..... Come out of the closet.

You Know Hank, Ben, Loui, Jim. Back in the Hop - Sing DAYS.... Do I need to Dig more?
Chang Was the one Who Named Ho Chun. Haveing Demo's At Stow High school ....

You Keep on Thinking how you want ... But I Know Facts My Freind . Enough said
Mukei

JDK

01-15-2007, 04:20 AM

I came on the Ong, Chicoine, Allen, Chang Martial Arts dispute in 1980
I trained in Master Ong's Basement prior to his death...and then studied with his son Stephen ater that.

I visited Allen's Green Dragon Studio and was impressed with their weapons and forms ( learned from Master Ong & Master Chicoine)
I also visited Chicoine's Ho Chun Studio and observed 2 classes. Very good training and no Sport attitude at all. Training was serious , intense and advanced to what he learned with Feemon. He also had added Weights ( something Master Ong never endorsed) and Master Chang had certainly added to Chicone's alread yconsiderable vast knowledge ans Skill.

I also trained briefly with Tony Yang in Canton and Dave Shenk in Tallmadge. I observed one class of Mike Biggie ( and was impressed) and also Moneyking when he was in Green.

I made several friends at the Ongs, so I have good memories of my training there with Bob Keen and Stephen. I learned alot of good basics and foundation.

**** Pitts Art of Desire School was close to where I grew up, s I also observed a class of his and got a copy of his White Tiger Booklet ?...( not sure of the exact title)

I have been to several tournaments and watched some of these men and their students perform and compete.( Not many...Chicoine, Allen, Ong for sure wouldnt allow anything tournament wise back then)

It was my experience that Master Ong, Mike Biggie , Monkey King, and Sifu Shenk were all gentlemen and seemed polite and had small Ego's

Just my 2 cents

JD

IronWeasel

01-15-2007, 04:23 PM

I have heard about the snake's breath before...

From Chicoine's reputation, though, his formula seems to work just fine.

MonkeyKingUSA

01-15-2007, 05:40 PM

JDK wrote,
It was my experience that Master Ong, Mike Biggie , Monkey King, and Sifu Shenk were all gentlemen and seemed polite and had small Ego's

Thanks for the props! :)
Richard A. Tolson

iron tiger

01-16-2007, 01:31 PM

I was asked for my take, and gave it. I still stand by it. If you don't think you're gonna like the answer, or get the answer you wanted, then why ask the question?

Chang was trained in iron palm and used it to win many fights. From my experience and to my knowledge, to claim he wasn't or didn't just shows that some of the people who claim to have "inside knowledge" about it just really don't.

I'm sure Mike believes what he says. But he provided nothing that he bases his belief on---nor did anyone else---that would change my mind. Not being disrepectful, it's just calling it how it looks from my pov. It's not new news to some of us out here that the old ways & knowledge are slowly disappearing; nor are the many, often more complicated than they may appear, reasons why.

Just too bad, imho, that so few schools even have a real interest in preserving as much of that old knowledge---and skill---as is still possible as more & more of those old masters pass from the face of the Earth.

I have heard about the snake's breath before

And 1,000 (sometimes 10,000) year old eggs, and so on.

One thing about (authentic) iron palm medicine, though, from a general perspective (ie not saying Mike doesn't already know this; but I read nothing to indicate he, or any of the other posters, do/does): it's interesting to me that in addition to dilating the meridians, they also do unusual things to blood flow.

I say this because I was always struck by the uncanny ways that the Snake Turns Over (and other isotonically-grounded strength & power exercises) affects bloodflow routes, through hard exercise (the flexing, turnings, etc) alone just prior to some of the internal effects coming into play--eg chi; and in some of the more advanced sets, how particular movements---changes in finger postion, wrist rotations, etc---close down some "chi circuits" while opening others for activation throughout the course of the exercise sequence or structure of the form, esp. when the breathing has to be timed to the movements.

But what's most interesting of all, of course, is what happens when you're doing something that's also supposed to build extra power but is completely "internal" in its design (iron vest or some of the Iron Buddha or Hsing I exercises, eg); and then what happens again when you experiment with using various of the many herbal formulas that are out there (and I'm familiar with a couple or so) to test their effectiveness.

Not intended for the many experts who've already chimed in and know all about these phenomena, but for any stray student of a "beginner's mind" who might have more than a passing interest of some of these topics (ie herbs, medicines [many of which include more than just herbs, eg bear parts (of a specific species? No?) or tiger or minerals etc] and the more esoteric, in some views, "internal" side of the TCMA as it has been practiced at various times in history.

I trained in Master Ong's Basement prior to his death...and then studied with his son Stephen ater that.

I visited Allen's Green Dragon Studio and was impressed with their weapons and forms ( learned from Master Ong & Master Chicoine)
I also visited Chicoine's Ho Chun Studio and observed 2 classes.

I also trained briefly with Tony Yang in Canton and Dave Shenk in Tallmadge. I observed one class of Mike Biggie ( and was impressed) and also Moneyking when he was in Green.

I made several friends at the Ongs, so I have good memories of my training there with Bob Keen and Stephen. I learned alot of good basics and foundation.

All well and good---for you. I did my own "shopping around," though. And checked and double-checked before I decided to go with Green Dragon (instead of one of the many other pretty good MA schools that are out there). I've never yet regretted my own choice, either.

Again, just my take. Best of luck in your own work & training, whoever you are wherever and whichever choices you may have committed to.

In closing----dang, too bad about Ginn & Pittman joining Gonzo in the draft. Sure do miss the old ways of college football, when Woody & Bear were around and players hung in there for all 4 years, etc...

;)

JDK

01-16-2007, 01:56 PM

In closing----dang, too bad about Ginn & Pittman joining Gonzo in the draft. Sure do miss the old ways of college football, when Woody & Bear were around and players hung in there for all 4 years, etc...

ME TOO!

BM

pilgrimsunwukun

01-16-2007, 02:29 PM

As a person who knows little about the lifestyle of iron palm but some about herbs, I'd like to say that Chinese medicine sure has changed over the years. Change is due to time, location,interpretation of formula colligraphy, experience, and relationships.

Time is a basic premise in Chinese medicne along with the changes of Yin and Yang. There was a time when certain herbs were easily accessed but then the FDA has stepped in. Animal parts are harder to obtain as are certain herbs like catechu, mahuuang, and other aristolochia. Besides that, the closest some herbalists will get to a tiger or rhino is when it dies in the zoo.So much for rare ingredients. Time was that wasn't the case. Also some herbs need to harvested in a timely manner, and are in smalll supply, thinking about liquid amber sap. Strchnine is an ingredient in some jow and I'm sure your local Chinese herbalist will raise their eyebrows when seeing it listed, possibly not even adding it to the formula.

Having a varied ecosystem, a Chinese iron palm master/ plan old practitioner could move from Sichuan to Harbin and not be able to access the special herbs of his old location. You use what is available ; I'm not saying use junk, just that some herbs are easily found in particular locations.

Yang jwing ming has some formula ingredients that are translated as three taoist herbs, what are those, the three yellows? and there's also the shell of a crayfish from some river in China. Few Americans will know where that river is, let alone get crayfish from there. Unless you have a special guy harvesting for you, as if...

With experience a jow maker may decide the cinnamon bark from Vietnam is really better then the cinnamon bark from Guangcho. I my the formula changes. Here comes broken hands.....no I don't believe so. Amounts may vary because the freshest herbs picked in China or Siberia or Hebei dry out, may be sulfered/fulmulgated by the time they get to a USA China town. Thus the li, fen qian,liang( a big batch for sure) may vary.

Chinese medicine definately has shamanism, so snake breath, chants, monks, may be part of the formula. Think of hupo, amber, tiger spirit.The likelyhoood of an American/non-Chinese to access the Shamaonism aspect is pretty small. A lot of learning, kung fu, medicine, is based on relationships. I doubt Allen, Ong, Chicoine, had access to such esoteric stuff. Even if they were the second son of whoever. Some precious things occur over time and if you live in Ohio and the master teacher is in China- well even if you speak Chinese have a Chinese wife, and can hold a horse stance for 15 minutes, 30 minutes- few are let in. But then again maybe they did really know such people.

I don't know if it matters. lineage is important but what matters is what you can do. When the time comes, time tells. Are you doing the Sifu's suggestions and training daily.The "wow" part of the Ong, Allen Chicoine claims probably played a major part of their Ohio stories. Stories that wouldn't be told or would be accepted as a norm in an area of a large Chinese population, such as California, New York, Vancouver, BC. But if they're true that's very cool but what can I do is the point of my training

Mike B. I really appreciate the visit to my place, the visit to your school, what you showed and gave me , along with teaching me the two exercises. Mike seems to have known a lot back in '96 and since he's been wood shedding on his own and learning from others, he clearly must be better then he was.

Meaning what he makes is authentic jow, good medicine.

Steve H AKA Monkey boy by Big Bob

Akronviper

01-16-2007, 02:32 PM

Iron Tiger I dont say this much but what is Allen feeding you. If you want to know about Chang dont listen to Allen for he did not train under him, met yes trained under no.

iron tiger

01-16-2007, 02:46 PM

what is Allen feeding you. If you want to know about Chang dont listen to Allen

Viper, it wasn't Allen who told me. Nor was it only one other person.*

:)

Also, with all due respect, Allen never told me anything that didn't turn out to be valid, whether in a fact-type way or, in a this-will-happen-if-you-do-it-this-way type of way if it was about training.

All the best to you; and those Buckeyes.

(* although Allen later also said so, too.)

Akronviper

01-16-2007, 03:24 PM

Any one have any insight about Ong's endurance pills or wine of life. Are they usefull, still around or even worth while.

JDK

01-16-2007, 03:44 PM

...Chinese medicine definately has shamanism, so snake breath, chants, monks, may be part of the formula. Think of hupo, amber, tiger spirit.The likelyhoood of an American/non-Chinese to access the Shamaonism aspect is pretty small. A lot of learning, kung fu, medicine, is based on relationships. I doubt Allen, Ong, Chicoine, had access to such esoteric stuff. Even if they were the second son of whoever. Some precious things occur over time and if you live in Ohio and the master teacher is in China- well even if you speak Chinese have a Chinese wife, and can hold a horse stance for 15 minutes, 30 minutes- few are let in. But then again maybe they did really know such people.

I don't know if it matters. lineage is important but what matters is what you can do

Shamanism most definitely played a part in Ong's obtaining his ingredients, some knowledge and even our Uniforms came from sources in Taiwan and China.
Again...........this is why I left Kwan Ying Do.

His famous Opening Up Of A Black Belt's "Chi Gates" after 10 years of study
was considered quite an honor and There was a Ceremony involved.

Many of the tokens taught us were in honor of a dead departed "master".

It is impossible to seperate Chinese Martial Arts and their veiw on the Universe,Buddhism, the after life...and disguised worship of various Chinese dieties.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4684/newageks7.th.gif (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newageks7.gif)

I hate posting this because I have such a love for the Chinese Arts!!!!!!!!
But.............

They are not worth endangering one's eternal Soul.

Sorry if I offended anyone...but please remember myNEW signature line..

http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/newage5-99.html

http://www.cephasministry.com/index_new_age.html

http://kempojitsu.homestead.com/Simms.html

Humbly ...JDK

iron tiger

01-16-2007, 05:41 PM

Well ... You might think so hahahah...

I know so. 80% (of the post's content) is irrelevant. And Chang was trained in iron palm (not generally known, obviously; maybe to emphasize his Shuai Ciao all the more?), and used it (though not always) to win matches.

I know I'm not the only one who knows about this, though there is apparently nothing about it online.

But almost everyone who knows anything about Chang's training background knows about him seeking out everyone who might have something of value to teach him, and iron palm (at least as it was then taught) was certainly something of value---especially when combined with other advanced power programs like iron vest etc (the whole becoming far, far greater than just the sum of the parts). And there are many stories of him winning challenge matches in his later years with just a light slap of the hand etc. I don't even see how it's credible to think he wouldn't have had this training, it would've been almost incidental given some of the teachers he had and what was part of the old advanced "core" curriculum.

if you knew how many times I have had someone from one of the
local schools try to tell me what was what. Then to only be shown to know nothing of what they speak

I've had a lot of similar experiences, though not all of them by way of the schools in NE Ohio.

The most typical boils down to people who just aren't willing to put in hard work (I mean really hard work). This includes one visit to a school---I won't name it but it, and the Chinese man who runs it, are well known, and I have friends who train there and I have no desire to bring them any grief (they know my opinion, though, because we have trained together at times and so they also know what my opinion is based on)---a school with a reputation for really brutally hard training and super challenging hard workouts in class. Okay; so I went to visit. And, not even close to what I had experienced at Green Dragon. Best guess, about 60% as hard; in a lot of ways.

Not really surprising. Take pro football players. They may work "hard" relative to what the typical CMA student--and many instructors---does. But really hard-working pro footballers are such a rarity that when one does come along, he quickly gets a reputation for being so. Once, it was Walter Payton. Then, it was Jerry Rice. Singled out from everybody else...

And since so many of you guys seem to be about my age or older, check out, in many books (or, better, talk to some of his former players, like I did) what Bear Bryant used to put his guys through. No one else even came close to what Bear demanded; and no one would ever dream of trying something like that today (and it wasn't just Junction), in spite of the changes in values and the system (limits on scholie, eg).

Most pro athletes would not even consider doing the kind of daily workout regimen some of the old Chinese masters (and students, of course) took as just a matter of course.

But enough on that (though I could say a ton more, and about other sports, too).

Another class of "experiences" involves a lot of things I discovered totally through accident, but that stems from when I first got directly lied to by the head of another somewhat well-known CMA school (though I didn't realize it until I talked to some of his senior students; then did some follow up to make sure it wasn't just a misunderstanding; oh, and I did not let the students know what had happened, fwiw). And that's the one that got me to start digging beyond "surface appearances" of the TCMA and "what everybody knows."

I' have heard it all before

Haven't we all? But that's where "actions speak louder than words" comes into play, big time, for me...Just as a start.

And sorry, but I'm not the class of idiot some of the other statements in your post would seem to presume; in fact I used to, back in my coaching/training/playing days, get a lot of athletes (non-MA) both decent as well as a few national & world-class, coming to me for my take on various aspects of technique & training & so on because I guess I developed a positive rep of some kind (go figure), especially for being skeptical and going beyond the generally accepted ideas on some things.

So it would take a heckuva lot more than anything that's been posted in either this or the other thread to convince me that what I'm saying, and why, is as totally lacking in validity as almost everyone else here would like to think.

Like, people who have actually done the work, over time, and correctly, on some of the things that have been discussed here & about. 'Cuz sorry, guys, but not one of you has come up anything but M.T. in that regard. No matter whose school(s) the glowing lineages you keep holding in front of me derives from. Which shouldn't be all that hard to understand, ie, again, why was I really asked for my take at all, unless it was just some kind of typical, tired set up?

I started off, as a kid, a big Bruce Lee fan. It took some doin' (or should I say, "undoin'") to turn me down a different path. But it sure got done.

I'm done now. Cheers.

iron tiger

01-16-2007, 06:16 PM

Any one have any insight about Ong's endurance pills or wine of life

Maybe. But considering what happened re: iron palm herbs, wouldn't touch it with a 10,000-year-long staff!

:D

pilgrimsunwukun

01-16-2007, 07:32 PM

Have no idea what the pills are. Would really like to know.
I can say i doubt they are really rare. I remember that Green Dragon used to advertize herbs, saying something that you had to buy x number of tapes before they'd sell iron palm, dynamite pills, endurance pills and the chi, blood , breath pills that worked with the Stone Warrior.

Pathologies of Chi, Blood, and Spirit due to internal, external, and extra or miscellaneous causes of disease are what cause the need for herbs, acupuncture, which are lower levels of healing then say, internal cultivation such as meditation/QiGong. There is a hierarchy of healing modalities.

Anyway Endurance Pills that are prescribed to anyone and everyone don't fit Chinese medicine, traditional or earlier. (Maybe that's a difference between kung fu and other herbalists.)That is because lack of endurance can be caused by lack of Qi and blood(Gui Pi Wan), lack of yin( Liu Wei Di Wang Wan), Liver Qi stagnation (Xiao Yao Wan), and I could go on.

Now I have read somewhere-Iron Tiger we have to close in age due to Haynes and Bryant comments- so I don't remember where, but in some Taoist book the distinction was made about the difference between Northern and Southern Taoism. The Southern group used herbs to help cause change in mind, body, spirit, the Northern group was less likely to do so, prefering not exclusively, doing hard work over a long period of time in exercises without herbal supplementation. Maybe you know about dosages, various training philosophies.

I had a friend show me the special Ong pills that he got from a guy who kept them frozen for a number of years. Not pungent anymore, wrapped in paper , they reminded me of Hai Ma Bu Shen Wan, Ren Shen Yang Rong Wan and other tonic formulas one would easily find in any Chinese grocery store.

The little black pills sound like any other Chinese patent medicine/pill of that era

So maybe there is an Ong connection to Sothern Taoist mysticism. The Ong, Green Dragon thing degenerates into blah, blah, blah. Train and grow. I totally respect lineage. The point is I'll never be Pak Sera but I can live the training he handed down from one to another to my present teacher. Feeman Ong clearly had things to teach,like the body exercise. Where's that come from?

I have a tape of Funk's 18 Lohan and Master Su Wu Chang. You can see that the forms are similar but Master Su's is a little more detailed. Sometimes it seems that teachers show all and other times they don't show much. I'm sure Master Ong was like that at times.

This forum could be an excellent place to share-maybe- formulas. Or reasons for the difference between Northern and Southern schools of herbology or training philosophies. Or herb knowledge like the use of channel guiding herbs to open the spine, send the herbs to the hands, feet, whatever. And yes, arm grabs could do things to the meridians, just like the exercises in in Shou Yu Liang's Qi Gong book do. Anyway sick for the first time in many years, not making much sense.

Pilgrimsunwukung

Piercinghammer

01-16-2007, 08:43 PM

Akronviper:

I can tell you quite a bit about the wine of life, I received the written prescription
probably 25 years ago, I still have it filled in San Francisco and have it shipped to me. I don't keep all of the herbs for it due too their expensive nature. It's a good formula, I like it now that I'm in my mid 40's, I tried it when I was in my mid 20's
it did nothing for me. When I hit my late 30's I started to notice a general tired
feeling. My body just started changing, just age starting to peek through.
I took it for several months, really noticed a difference. It is quite a famous
formula, a lot of people know it and use it. shouldn't be used in warm weather
or during things like colds or sinus infections.

It has several tonic herbs, a very good grade of red gensing, it uses deer antler glue, ass glue (Mule) and tortoise shell glue. male and farmable gecko's , dried human placenta," looks like an oatmeal cookie if you've seen it.
I think 90 grams of Sea horses. that's what gives it the push. I always make sure
I get the dark Sea horses,not the white bleached out ones.

There is a trick to making that tonic wine better, I now that nobody here
is taking advantage of it. Soak 4 oz of Yin Yang huo ( ***** goat Weed) in your
liquor for several weeks before putting the Wine of life (Spring tonic) herbs in.

***** goat weed relaxes the small blood vessels. The herbs are carried into the liver channel first
by the alcohol then the rest of the body.

I have never been able to get use the fishy / meaty/ rich dirt taste... must be me.

Iron tiger: in an earlier post you mentioned about the animal a parts and hormone level measurements.
In all of the Big hand formulas I got from Ong's guys,The animal parts where always intact in whole pieces
the Bear Paw, the snake.. if you would like to see one, Google "100 steps Viper" or "Russell's Viper". Many of the other animal parts are getting harder to come by, and I have great connections, here and in Hong Kong and even with those you are just seeing less and less of those items every year.

Pilgrim. Good to see you here, you add excellent insight. Thanks

Mike