Is this a bad sign?

[MattEl]

If everything else looks cool, but a teacher says that the closest his students get to sparring is fast-moving two-man drills, when they're advanced -- is that a bad sign?

[Royal Dragon]

Not really, you can do the sparring on your own when you are ready.

Either that, or go find a good figting school.

What style do you do, and how long have you been in the arts?

[MattEl]

I'm totally new. But this school looked really interesting.

http://www.pachitanglang.com/

[Royal Dragon]

Looks like he was a student of Liu Yun Chaio. That is a really good lineage.

I actually have some of his Qi Gong video's. Good stuff.

[Ravenshaw]

Generally, yeah, unless you're not particularly interested in application. Did he give any reasoning for not sparring?

Sparring can be done on one's own, but an instructor accelerates the learning process immensely. Of course, if the instructor never sparred/fought himself, he probably couldn't teach you much on the subject.

[Yao Sing]

Sounds like it could be an insurance/liability issue. That's why there's no 'sparring' just fast paced 2-man drills, wink wink nudge nudge.

[MattEl]

I didn't ask why because I didn't want to seem rude. Here's a guess ... At another school I was told the same thing, and the reason was that they didn't have insurance. But they said people did it on their own outside of class.

For this school I didn't talk to the sifu, I talked to I guess one of his high level students, who seemed to imply that the different arts were being taught by different instructors at the school. I would be able to start with mantis or taichi (I would want to do mantis), but that the art that drew me in (pachi is not given until the sifu deems the student ready.)

Aside from the sparring thing it sounded good, and the sifu seems like the real deal, but what do I know ...

[WinterPalm]

Without sparring it is not kung fu. Without actually training real time against resisting opponents it is not a martial art. That is my opinion. If you are learning an art you need to learn to fight with it.
I would say that is not a great choice and that you should go somewhere else. That said, two man drills, not long sequences but self-defense scenarios are very good but I really feel that nothing compares to free sparring.

[nonresistance]

unfortunately, yao sing is right

I wouldnt worry about it if his teaching is good, actually I would worry if sparring is emphasized too heavily right away, because if you havent learned anything about the art, its impossible to spar effectively without breaking "the rules." Two man drills are good, they teach reaction, timing, speed, and power (to an extent). Once you get good at the forms, two man drills, and you understand the principles behind what you're doing, then you are ready to spar....

However, it would be better if your teacher was there when you were ready to spar


Peace
PW

[MattEl]

Well this guy's right next to my office. What about him? http://www.wutehtaiji.com/martial.html

[Knifefighter]

No sparring is always a bad sign- unless you just want to learn forms and get some exercise.

Sparring "on your own" isn't any better. Can't ever imagine going to a boxing gym and the trainer tells you that you have to spar outside of the gym on your own.


Well this guy's right next to my office. What about him?
Doesn't sound any better.

"Private office visits in business attire to insure discretion."
Probably won't get much sparring done with that.

[SifuAbel]

I'll have to agree that no sparring is a bad thing.

Not that two man drills is a bad thing, in concert with sparring after a few weeks. It doesn't take that long to get rudimentary skills.

If its an insurance or liability issue, then get better insurance. Its just a bit more money. If he wants to be Mr. Cheapy McScrooge about it, then he should have a fighting location outside the premises.

[SPJ]

once you know your stuff, then spar away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB6rKkeIQ5w&mode=related&search=

:cool:

[Ravenshaw]

Sounds like it could be an insurance/liability issue. That's why there's no 'sparring' just fast paced 2-man drills, wink wink nudge nudge.

The liability is a good point. It's not an insurmountable hurdle for those instructors that really want to spar, but it's a deterrent to those that don't want to put forth the effort. My first sifu had a sparring class that eventually died out because not enough people were actually interested in, you know, fighting with their kung fu. Every time we tried to start it up again, the whole liability thing came up. As the instructors, we could get some "off-the-record" instruction and would spar outside the scheduled class hours, but implementing a sparring program in class was too much work for such little interest. Sure, people want to do it at first, but the first time they go to work with a cut under their eye they realize it's not as easy as doing sets. The ones who offer only token interest in sparring don't tend to last long.

Most people seemed happiest when learning sets... they felt as if learning a few new moves in the sequence was something almost tangible, a representation of what their money had bought. I suppose many CMA teachers caught on and taught what most people wanted to learn rather than appease the minority that wanted to spar. A self-perpetuating problem, since the more people that schools educate with forms only, the more they propagate the idea that forms are all you need. Those instructors that never really wanted to teach - or follow the tradition of offering no instruction unless you really want it - won't go out of their way to make sure you spar.

Especially among CMA teachers that get older, the drive to teach people to fight and pressure them to spar seems to dwindle. They have to really enjoy teaching and take pride in producing fighters if they are going to continue to push it even as their own interest in fighting has left them.

To survive as a valid martial art, CMA would do well to adapt and bring in modern methods to augment our existing knowledge... the de-emphasis on sparring and realistic application is a step in the wrong direction, even if it is "for liability reasons."

As always, this is only my humble perspective.

[SPJ]

some bag work before sparring.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2657554897880532898&q=choy+fut

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2628488129802139000&q=choy+fut

spar away

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3827141606209521110&q=choy+fut

:)

[SPJ]

some san shou or san da fights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_vPOciU5xg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzIegyvLGiI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MavaopFG1-Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBIVkPJQdLg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HiukKvm8cQ&mode=related&search=

[MattEl]

All good info. Thanks.

Well if I'm in NYC, then what are some schools I might check out that have kind of the best worlds -- plenty of sparring, but not artless kickboxing either? Where there's a bit of personal attention and kind of a team, camraderie thing going on too (don't laugh).

This may be idealistic, but I think it'd be better to have a teacher who, rather than having a pre-set time block for sparring each week, had sparring spontaneously when he thought it was appropriate for that particular class in that particular session...

[Yum Cha]

Here's the problem as I see it. With the caveat that I am talking about traditional Chinese skills, not modern skills, sport skills, or any one of a hundred of other kinds of martial skills.

People lament the death of Traditional skills, yet they give lip service to traditional training, and put their efforts into generic kickboxing, and call it "Real life training against resisting opponents".

You fight how you train. So, if you want to fight using your traditional techniques, you have to work towards that objective, not towards the objective of satisfying the agressive tendencies of adolescent male testosterone, however much fun that might be, I might add.

So, how do you train to spar with traditional techniques, without reverting to "gweilo kune?" The $64 question.

It is probably one of the biggest puzzles facing the traditional arts these days, and not to their profit. Its why MMA is in the ascendency. In the old days, you just went out looking for practice and found it wherever you could provoke it. Not quite like that anymore.

First you have to break the old habits. One reason any master worth his wiskers likes a young disicple. Can you say blank slate?

So, you train forms, than you train combinations, than you train controlled live interactions, than you train less controlled live interactions.

So, like with so many things in this world, TCMA is no different. Anybody that says they are the be all and end all with all the answers is most assuredly not. Anybody that promises to teach you what you what to learn is most probabably NOT teaching you what you really want to learn.

So, sparring in TCMA, and I am only talking about TCMA, is not a simple proposition. The "Cure" is just as often the "Poison".

[MattEl]

So, again,

What are some legit places to get the full kung-fu treatment?

I know there's yee's but I'd like something other than hung ga I think.

[lunghushan]

In regards to sparring, sparring really isn't really that useful, honestly.

To those who just do basic kickboxing and grappling, yes, sparring might be a good drill.

But the problem with sparring for martial artists who don't just do basic kickboxing and grappling is that there is a big chance of injury if your opponent moves in an unexpected way.

For example, I was showing a technique to a friend of mine the other day, and used a basic chinese move whereby the practitioner grabs the opponent's leg upon a round kick. If I hadn't of let go at exactly the right time, he would have wound up on his head. But if I hadn't have grabbed, he wouldn't have known the usefulness.

Trying to pull that off in sparring without breaking his head or neck would have been really difficult.

Judo and kickboxing and grappling were designed specifically not to injure the opponent greatly in a sport environment. And even so, accidents happen that seriously injure people.

[Knifefighter]

If I hadn't of let go at exactly the right time, he would have wound up on his head. But if I hadn't have grabbed, he wouldn't have known the usefulness.
Trying to pull that off in sparring without breaking his head or neck would have been really difficult.
Judo and kickboxing and grappling were designed specifically not to injure the opponent greatly in a sport environment. And even so, accidents happen that seriously injure people.
That's why we train on mats... so we can dump each other on our heads over and over and over again without worrying about seriously injuring each other. That way we get really, really good at doing it for real against a live, resisting opponent. That way we can do it to an opponent and not have to worry about not being able to seriously hurt him if we need to.

[lunghushan]

That's why we train on mats... so we can dump each other on our heads over and over and over again without worrying about seriously injuring each other. That way we get really, really good at doing it for real against a live, resisting opponent. That way we can do it to an opponent and not have to worry about not being able to seriously hurt him if we need to.

Yeah, whatever. I've watched people breaking their arms on mats and sprain their necks.

The bottom line is you're doing kickboxing and grappling which were designed so you don't get hurt as much.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, whatever. I've watched people breaking their arms on mats and sprain their necks.

The bottom line is you're doing kickboxing and grappling which were designed so you don't get hurt as much.
Actually, the fact that we get hurt more often and more seriously than people who do "street self-defense" pretend fighting pretty much negates that point.

[lunghushan]

Actually, the fact that we get hurt more often and more seriously than people who do "street self-defense" pretend fighting pretty much negates that point.

I guess I forgot my target audience. Anyway, I have no idea why I got back on here again, I'll leave once more.

[MattEl]

Again,

-- good schools like this in NY??

[SPJ]

I guess I forgot my target audience. Anyway, I have no idea why I got back on here again, I'll leave once more.

no need to rush away.

there are many more lurkers (readers and non posting) would be reading your posts.

I happened to like your point about safety in sparring. Just kind of another big topic to respond in a short post. actually it deserves a new thread.

:)

[lunghushan]

Again,

-- good schools like this in NY??

Dude, this guy is one of the best teachers in the entire world. It is tremendously insulting that you are even asking about other schools. You might as well just do boxing.

[MattEl]

huh, wait-- which guy? I'm not trying to insult anyone. I don't know anything about kung fu. I told you I'm new to this. Which guy?

[lunghushan]

no need to rush away.

there are many more lurkers (readers and non posting) would be reading your posts.

I happened to like your point about safety in sparring. Just kind of another big topic to respond in a short post. actually it deserves a new thread.

:)

It's useless to discuss. Bottom line is, this is the UFC MMA crowd. That's the target audience. So of course they think sparring is the end all be all of training. "Keep it alive." LOL

[MattEl]

Well I'm open to that, but when you said 'this guy is one of the best teachers in the world' -- were you referring to the Pachi Tanglang guy or Yang Fukui? (I'm not looking to prepare for an octagon either). I'd like to know who you meant.

[lunghushan]

huh, wait-- which guy? I'm not trying to insult anyone. I don't know anything about kung fu. I told you I'm new to this. Which guy?

http://www.pachitanglang.com/

I don't study with him, but I have some of his baji videos (in Japanese, lol).

I don't think you can do better in the NYC area, unless his training is watered down now because of his age.

[MattEl]

Well I mean, even if he's got high ranking students doing a lot of the teaching (no idea), wouldn't it still be good since he's directing the program?

[lunghushan]

Well I mean, even if he's got high ranking students doing a lot of the teaching (no idea), wouldn't it still be good since he's directing the program?

Totally depends. I've seen teachers with good high ranking students, and teachers without. You should consider them teachers in their own right, so if they are great, then by all means, study.

But this guy is top notch. Extremely good shen fa, body movements, everything done crisp and precise, good applications. In short, I would study with him except I'm 3000 miles away.

Of the people I would study with, given the chance to move anywhere, he's on top of my list right now.

See, you think you need sparring. But the thing is, what can you really do sparring? Basic punching and kicking, and some grappling.

If you try to do a lot of takedowns and throws in sparring, you can seriously wind up maiming your opponent if they don't land right or don't get out of a lock right.

Anyway, I'm not saying don't do sparring. But sparring is really just a drill for some basic techniques.

[MattEl]

Okay, well this is slightly off topic, but then what (aside from the fact that you love it) motivates you to study kung fu? (If not learning it for octagon-street fighting, etc.) What is your core style?

[lunghushan]

Okay, well this is slightly off topic, but then what (aside from the fact that you love it) motivates you to study kung fu? (If not learning it for octagon-street fighting, etc.) What is your core style?

I don't really have a core style. I don't list a style because I don't study any style.

There is enough cross-pollination within CMA IMHO that most everybody does the same things, just with different forms and emphasis.

As for motivation. ??? I don't honestly think that I will ever have a confrontation with somebody, but when you're peeing at a rest stop it might give you more security to think that if somebody attacks you from behind, you aren't totally clueless about what to do.

But really, I think that martial arts is kindof a curse. Because once you spend some time in it and effort you don't want to stop because of all the time you already invested. (Unless of course you get a family and they don't let you spend the time, in which case your life is kindof over. LOL)

[MattEl]

but you love it, right?? (dumb question)

[lunghushan]

but you love it, right?? (dumb question)

No, like I said, I think it's like a fricking curse. LOL How can you love practicing boring moves over and over again???

I guess, if you want to enjoy martial arts you should probably pick a nice easy style where you can go and spar with people, and with easy forms where you can get belts and recognition.

[lunghushan]

Anyway, I shouldn't discourage you from training martial arts because you'll have your own reasons to train.

It sounds like you want to do sparring, so maybe you could find a good sparring school. The only ones I know of in NYC are karate, Kyokushin and World Oyama. It sounds like Sifu Ross also has a good fighting school.

[Ravenshaw]

So, how do you train to spar with traditional techniques, without reverting to "gweilo kune?" The $64 question.

It is probably one of the biggest puzzles facing the traditional arts these days

I guess what I'm wondering is why that would be if the techniques are effective? And why are we reducing sparring methods which incorporate modern methods to "gweilo kune?" If it's not pure CMA, we get "white people fighting?"


So, sparring in TCMA, and I am only talking about TCMA, is not a simple proposition. The "Cure" is just as often the "Poison".

The Greek "pharmakon." Why do you suggest that sparring is a "poison?"


See, you think you need sparring. But the thing is, what can you really do sparring? Basic punching and kicking, and some grappling.

If you try to do a lot of takedowns and throws in sparring, you can seriously wind up maiming your opponent if they don't land right or don't get out of a lock right.

Sparring teaches you the most important skills in fighting. Technique is not the most important skill. You learn timing, speed, distance, what works, and what's dubious. How do you suggest learning these skills without sparring?

"Knowing what to do" is not the same as being able to pull it off proficiently.

[5Animals1Path]

No sparring at all = Bad. It's something you should at least experience, even if you don't do it regularly. It'll be a very obvious yard stick for you to measure what you've learned.

Sparring too soon = Bad. If you succeed with a move that wasn't executed properly, simply because the opponent doesn't know what he's doing, you're gonna get overconfident. Believe me, because it happened to me. This can be smacked off a bit, if your opponent is a whole lot better then you, but that quickly turns more into a two man drill then a sparring match.



Anyone who tells you "you should be sparring by this time" is either dreaming, or lying. You're gonna take your own amount of time getting to that point, depending on your personal drive to train, your ability to pick up the style, and your natural instincts. If your instructor's worth his salt, he'll know when you're ready.

And don't be afraid to not be ready. That can set you back alot more then you'd think.





Just don't stay not ready. ;)

[mantiskilla]

Dude, this guy is one of the best teachers in the entire world. It is tremendously insulting that you are even asking about other schools. You might as well just do boxing.

man i love the way people act like CMA's are so much more of an 'art' than western boxing or kickboxing. It's even funnier because its the same people who say sparring is a waste of time. The reason why kickboxing and western boxing may not look to be as much of an 'art' as CMA is because it is effective. Effective is usually 'simple' BUT do not mistake that for 'artless' in any way.
________
LovelyWendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[MasterKiller]

I guess I forgot my target audience. Anyway, I have no idea why I got back on here again, I'll leave once more.

Weren't you leaving TMA at one point to do pankration?

[MattEl]

I wasn't saynig I want to spar "all the time" or before I know the basics. I just meant that I want to go to a school that incorporates applications and sparring.

[SPJ]

But really, I think that martial arts is kindof a curse. Because once you spend some time in it and effort you don't want to stop because of all the time you already invested. (Unless of course you get a family and they don't let you spend the time, in which case your life is kindof over. LOL)

In the beginnig, we are curious and we like to learn/know.

once we start the stances and drill the moves over and over.

--

phew, hard work mentally and physically. it is repetitive and boring.


--

in the end, you just do it. it is then called Kung Fu or becomes part of you.

;)

[Royal Dragon]

If you try to do a lot of takedowns and throws in sparring, you can seriously wind up maiming your opponent if they don't land right or don't get out of a lock right.

Reply]
Shui Chiao guys pretty much do this as thier main meal......all the time.

[Royal Dragon]

in the end, you just do it. it is then called Kung Fu or becomes part of you.

Reply]
Yup. This is where I am at. I just practice my Kung Fu because I just can't stop myslef. If I don't practice, I feel something is missing, like I forgot a meal or two.

[Knifefighter]

But the thing is, what can you really do sparring? Basic punching and kicking, and some grappling.
That's where you learn to put everything together and use it in the unpredicatable circumstances that happen when you are going live against a resisting opponent.


If you try to do a lot of takedowns and throws in sparring, you can seriously wind up maiming your opponent if they don't land right or don't get out of a lock right..
Getting injured comes with the territory. Just like you will never become a good snowboarder without taking some nasty falls that result in bumps and bruises and maybe even the occasional broken bone or concussion, you will never become good at using a martial art as a functional tool without getting beaten up a bit. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying to take your money or is clueless themselves.

If one wants to slide on the bunny slope forever and not risk getting hurt, that is fine. However, he is fooling himself if he thinks he will ever get past the very rudimentary stages to become a proficient boarder.


But sparring is really just a drill for some basic techniques.
Sparring is where you put your drills and techniques into use.

[Knifefighter]

man i love the way people act like CMA's are so much more of an 'art' than western boxing or kickboxing. It's even funnier because its the same people who say sparring is a waste of time. The reason why kickboxing and western boxing may not look to be as much of an 'art' as CMA is because it is effective. Effective is usually 'simple' BUT do not mistake that for 'artless' in any way.
Only people who spend their time dancing around like bugs think that CMA is more of an art than boxing or kickboxing... and in that case they are right. When you spend your time dancing around, rather than using it against an opponent, it is much more artful. The same way that ballet is more artful, rather than functional.

People who actually fight with CMA will not make the claim that it is somehow more artful. They know that fighting is ugly and looks nothing like the choreography forms dancers think it will look like.

[Fuzzly]

^ Speaks the truth here. Speaking of injuries, I'm sitting here with a recently reconstructed ACL (had the surgery last friday). I tore my ACL a couple months ago while sparring. I left my lower gate open, and I got taken down, but as I was being taken down, my body twisted and my mat shoe gripped the mat too well. It was probably the second most intense pain I've ever felt.

Yeah, it hurt, and it messed me up for awhile, and I haven't been able to train as much as I liked, but I accept it as something that happens. If you train for real, real things happen, no matter what precautions you take.

[lunghushan]

^ Speaks the truth here. Speaking of injuries, I'm sitting here with a recently reconstructed ACL (had the surgery last friday). I tore my ACL a couple months ago while sparring. I left my lower gate open, and I got taken down, but as I was being taken down, my body twisted and my mat shoe gripped the mat too well. It was probably the second most intense pain I've ever felt.


Yeah, that's just another horror story of martial arts. Like I said, I used to think that sparring was something you had to do.

But I've met more people injured during training than were injured during fights. And I'm not talking just sprains and breaks, but rather like you have, tendon and ligament damage that surgery cannot correct 100%.

The thing is, sparring doesn't teach you how to fight. Most schools do forms, then some basic drills, then spar, and all they can do is basic boxing and kickboxing (sanshou) and then they call it good.

But whatever ... when a 60+ year old teacher can still practice, and I'm watching people who are 40 with their torn ligaments, I just go ... ???

Anyway, whatever. My Grandma told me you shouldn't argue religion or politics. LOL

[SifuAbel]

Only people who spend their time dancing around like bugs

Your ignorance knows no bounds. One has nothing to do with the other. You either fight or you don't, "period". Whether or not a form is invloved in training is non sequitur.

[lunghushan]

Your ignorance knows no bounds. One has nothing to do with the other. You either fight or you don't, "period". Whether or not a form is invloved in training is non sequitur.

I say we let the UFC and MMA folks have their day. They have some valid points, which is that a lot of traditional martial artists don't learn the applications of their forms, and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

And then we can watch UFC/MMA, sanshou, etc., with their boring moves, and laugh at them.

But it is true a lot of so-called TMA don't do enough partner practice (and I'm not talking about sparring). I don't know what to do to fix that, so I've given up on it. :)

[MasterKiller]

I don't know what to do to fix that, so I've given up on it. :)

Then go away.

[Fuzzly]

Yeah, that's just another horror story of martial arts. Like I said, I used to think that sparring was something you had to do.

But I've met more people injured during training than were injured during fights. And I'm not talking just sprains and breaks, but rather like you have, tendon and ligament damage that surgery cannot correct 100%.

The thing is, sparring doesn't teach you how to fight. Most schools do forms, then some basic drills, then spar, and all they can do is basic boxing and kickboxing (sanshou) and then they call it good.

But whatever ... when a 60+ year old teacher can still practice, and I'm watching people who are 40 with their torn ligaments, I just go ... ???

Anyway, whatever. My Grandma told me you shouldn't argue religion or politics. LOL


I talked to my surgeoun <Sp?> and there have been great breakthroughs and improvements in my particular surgery. It may not be %100, but if I put the effort into it, it will be darn close. You can not expect to become a good fighter if you don't fight. Call it what you will, you need to stress-test yourself. Talk to any of the 60+ masters who can really fight and ask them if they ever got injured. Now, I don't go trying to injure myself and I take a lot of precautions (pads, matting on floors, instructor there to help). I would rather be injured in a friendly atmosphere where I am in no danger afterwards (relatively speaking) than in a fight.


"The thing is, sparring doesn't teach you how to fight. Most schools do forms, then some basic drills, then spar, and all they can do is basic boxing and kickboxing (sanshou) and then they call it good."

And those people are getting the serious injuries? Sounds to me like they need to re-evaluate their training.

[lunghushan]

Then go away.

You first ... LOL

[lunghushan]

I talked to my surgeoun <Sp?> and there have been great breakthroughs and improvements in my particular surgery. It may not be &#37;100, but if I put the effort into it, it will be darn close. You can not expect to become a good fighter if you don't fight. Call it what you will, you need to stress-test yourself. Talk to any of the 60+ masters who can really fight and ask them if they ever got injured.

And those people are getting the serious injuries? Sounds to me like they need to re-evaluate their training.

You don't need to spar. Sparring is an unstructured drill where you can only use extremely basic techniques. I used to think that sparring was oh so important, but it just really isn't that important.

But yeah, I've met a LOT of people messed up with the training most people are doing from people who got all their front teeth knocked in, to torn ACLs (this seems the most common debilitating injury), to you name it.

If you're going to get injured, save it for the actual fight.

I mean, if you want to take a page from actual 'fighters' (MMA fighters) take a look at their training. How much time do they spend sparring in the sense you're talking about it here?

They don't, because they don't want to get injured, which could mean an end to their career.

[Fuzzly]

You are stating that without sparring or otherwise stress-testing your skills, they can be effective? What do you suggest as an alternative?

Sparring does not have to be tottaly unstructured.

Also, mouthgaurds are a must. Sparring without one would make me cringe.

[lunghushan]

You are stating that without sparring or otherwise stress-testing your skills, they can be effective? What do you suggest as an alternative?

Sparring does not have to be tottaly unstructured.

Also, mouthgaurds are a must. Sparring without one would make me cringe.

Look at the training of professional fighters like Tito Ortiz or Rich Franklin. How much time do they spend in competitive, unstructured sparring? From their shows on T.V., it would seem none.

From what I caught of their shows, they work out, and do partner practice and drills, but they don't do unstructured competitive sparring. They save it for the fight.

[Fuzzly]

I haven't seen their shows on TV. I haven't even heard of them having shows, so I don't think I see where you are coming from. Also keep in mind that these guys fight more in one year than most of us will in a lifetime. They stress-test every time they get in the ring for a PPV or other event.

[lunghushan]

I haven't seen their shows on TV. I haven't even heard of them having shows.

Spike T.V. They had a show called 'Ultimate Fighter', a reality based competition show where these two and others, coached fighters, and they have something called UFC 'All Access', which follows them through their day and shows their training regimen.

[Fuzzly]

See my edited post. They stress test as well. They actually fight. They may not spar becuase it could injure them for their fight. You need stress-testing.

[lunghushan]

See my edited post. They stress test as well. They actually fight. They may not spar becuase it could injure them for their fight. You need stress-testing.

They fight to make money. They are professional fighters.

You fight for self defense, yes?

Anyway, you'll have to find your own training regime that works for you. But if your training regime leaves you injured before an actual fight, it would seem like you need a trade in.

[Pork Chop]

they spar quite a bit actually....

a lot of times their sparring has a particular purpose- open mat grappling, boxing, kickboxing sparring, and such...

watch the matt hughes clip- he's sparring pat militech (his coach) quite intensly.
rich franklin's close with team militech.
i've seen pix of tito's big bear sparring partners.

[Fuzzly]

I've stated in one of my first posts that injuried are rare. However, they do happen from time to time. If you want to be a good fighter you are going to get hurt. And you absolutely have to stress test your skills. At this point I just think we have to agree to disagree.

[lunghushan]

they spar quite a bit actually....

a lot of times their sparring has a particular purpose- open mat grappling, boxing, kickboxing sparring, and such...

watch the matt hughes clip- he's sparring pat militech (his coach) quite intensly.
rich franklin's close with team militech.
i've seen pix of tito's big bear sparring partners.

They don't spar in the competitive I want to win sense, they spar as a drill, very carefully, with control.

What they're doing rondori and kickboxing 'sparring' isn't the same as the unstructured sparring that goes on in a lot of martial arts studios.

[Fuzzly]

Now you are going back. Your argument wasn't good VS bad sparring, it was that sparring is bad.

[Pork Chop]

actually they hit pretty hard and don't take it easy
they're really causing damage
only difference is if a guy is about to go out, they'll give him a breather so they can keep sparring
it's not as controlled as you would think
it's barely a step down from competition level
it's not the slappy tag that goes on in a lot of martial arts studios.

when they spar with mma gloves, sometimes they won't go for the knockout or try to cut people open with elbows, but they will definitely go for the win/submission.

[lunghushan]

Now you are going back. Your argument wasn't good VS bad sparring, it was that sparring is bad.

Well, in kickboxing the closest thing they really have to 2 person drills is what they call sparring. Which isn't a competitive I want to win thing like they practice in most schools.

Go to the average MA school, what do they do? Forms, drills and sparring. But their sparring isn't really the same as rondori in BJJ or practice in boxing/kickboxing.

I don't think that the unstructured sparring that goes on in most MA schools is really that useful because it only practices an extremely limited number of techniques, and it increases the chance of injury of the participants.

[lunghushan]

actually they hit pretty hard and don't take it easy
they're really causing damage
only difference is if a guy is about to go out, they'll give him a breather so they can keep sparring
it's not as controlled as you would think
it's barely a step down from competition level
it's not the slappy tag that goes on in a lot of martial arts studios.

when they spar with mma gloves, sometimes they won't go for the knockout or try to cut people open with elbows, but they will definitely go for the win/submission.

Hmmm ... I didn't know that. I thought they were just doing it as a drill.

Anyways, I don't like sloppy tag.

[Fuzzly]

You can find bad examples of almost everything, it dosn't make your point valid. My point is this. To be a good fighter you need to stress-test your skills. This comes with a risk of injury.

Care to argue that?

[mantiskilla]

Fuzzly--

A little off topic. What kind of time frame did they give you for max medical improvement from your surgery?
________
Bmw 801 History (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_801)

[Fuzzly]

6-8 months. But that was before surgery. I go in tomorrow for my first check-up. If you wanna know more feel free to PM me.

[yutyeesam]

My $0.02:

Many times, in the CMA, the teachers don't know how to teach sparring. They don't have a sparring curriculum. The typical progression is forms & pad/bagwork, some contact drills, then spar. Hardly a curriculum for sparring.

Sparring as my teachers have taught me, needs to be a gradual progression. Adjusting the techniques that are allowed to be used and changing the degree of contact level are very important. If done in a progressive and thoughtful way, most people will be able to spar, and even gradually work their way up to full contact and throws. If not, at the very least, they can almost all be taken to a level of hard contact.

But what this requires is the teacher to be patient of the student's progress. There's a lot of fear that is associated with sparring. I also notice that there is a lot of fear learning our forms which seem very long. Then the obvious solution is to BREAK IT DOWN, and allow for very gradual progression, incrementally building confidence and ability.

Sparring doesn't have to start off as a Darwinian survival of the fittest/sink-or-swim exercise. It can be nurtured gradually, and included in one's syllabus, just as forms are.

PM me if you're interested to see what we use for our sparring curriculum.

-123

[lunghushan]

You can find bad examples of almost everything, it dosn't make your point valid. My point is this. To be a good fighter you need to stress-test your skills. This comes with a risk of injury.

Care to argue that?

I don't think you need to stress test, as you put it, no. At some point I guess to prove you're a good fighter you'll have to actually fight, but I don't think that training should be a place for stress testing.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Fuzzly]

TYut, that is close to how we do our sparring, my injury was an accident due to a simple takedown.

[lunghushan]

So, as a rebuttal opportunity here for the sparring advocates, how then do you practice maiming or lethal applications in sparring safely?

For example, neck cranks, arm breaks, throws, eye gouges, throat grabs, etc. ???

[MasterKiller]

So, as a rebuttal opportunity here for the sparring advocates, how then do you practice maiming or lethal applications in sparring safely?

For example, neck cranks, arm breaks, throws, eye gouges, throat grabs, etc. ???

It's called control. You apply as much pressure as needed to make the other guy submit, but not enough to do permanent damage. IRL, you just break the bone/choke him out and get it over with.

Sure, people get hurt training. But more people get hurt falling in the shower every year. You still take showers, don't you?

[lunghushan]

It's called control. You apply as much pressure as needed to make the other guy submit, but not enough to do permanent damage. IRL, you just break the bone/choke him out and get it over with.

Sure, people get hurt training. But more people get hurt falling in the shower every year. You still take showers, don't you?

Kickboxing and basic grappling have much less chance of injury than eye gouges, rakes, and other dangerous techniques.

That's why those techniques are outlawed in sparring and fighting tournaments.

I've caught numerous UFC matches that were shut down because somebody got a finger in their eye by accident. Heaven forbid somebody were actually aiming there.

[mantiskilla]

this is getting stupid. maybe this conversation is being backed by the Fed Reserve and the New World Order cabal of international bankers to keep us distracted from what is happening around us. then again, maybe not.
________
PRILOSEC SETTLEMENT UPDATE (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/prilosec/)

[MasterKiller]

So I guess you don't shower, huh?

[lunghushan]

this is getting stupid. maybe this conversation is being backed by the Fed Reserve and the New World Order cabal of international bankers to keep us distracted from what is happening around us. then again, maybe not.

Anyway, my point is, that sparring is a drill with limited usefulness. It only allows you to practice a small subset of techniques, usually basic kickboxing and some grappling.

So if a school doesn't do sparring, I wouldn't be that worried about it.

That's the last I'll say on the subject.

[yutyeesam]

Kickboxing and basic grappling have much less chance of injury than eye gouges, rakes, and other dangerous techniques.


Whether an eye gouge or rake or what have you, the thing is, you have to penetrate the defense in order to apply it. If you spar, you are in the practice of penetrating resisting defenses. If you can penetrate defenses, then you can change a fist to a tiger claw. But that tiger claw won't do you any good if you're not practicing getting through someone's resistance.

-123

[yutyeesam]

Anyway, my point is, that sparring is a drill with limited usefulness. It only allows you to practice a small subset of techniques, usually basic kickboxing and some grappling.


And throws. And I agree with you. Sparring is a drill with limitations.

-123

[Fuzzly]

How would you suggest becoming a good fighter without stress-testing? Yut pretty much said how I believe you should should go about sparring.

You need to begin sparring with only a few techniques, and work on those. If you can't use 2-3 techniques right, why should you be trying to use 50+?


It depends on what you want from the school if sparring is a deal-breaker or not. If you really want to spar but the school dosn't offer it or have an "extra-hours" type of thing, look around for a gym and see what they do.

My argument still stands. You can't be a good driver without driving, you can't be a good cook without cooking, and you can't be a good fighter without fighting. This dosn't mean you start going all-out, but you still need to do it.

[Yao Sing]

Laughing at you guys trying to have a serious conversation with Lunghushan. :D

[lkfmdc]

Laughing at you guys trying to have a serious conversation with Lunghushan. :D

BINGO

we have a winner

[lunghushan]

BINGO

we have a winner

Somehow insults of a chipmunk don't seem to hurt that much.

It was funny watching you and the BFP guys yell back and forth, though... LOL

You know, gotta wonder if Gene would let you get away with all your bullying if you weren't a sometimes advertiser and writer for the mag.

Don't think so.

[lkfmdc]

it's easy to talk trash from behind a keyboard .... regardless, most of us know exactly what you are troll boy.....

[lunghushan]

it's easy to talk trash from behind a keyboard .... regardless, most of us know exactly what you are troll boy.....

Well at least I'm not a fat little chipmunk.

But you're right, I can't come out and play with you because daddy doesn't like it. But he's retiring in 4 more years.

[lkfmdc]

the little dogs always make the most noise, yip yip yip :rolleyes:

keep talking......

[lunghushan]

the little dogs always make the most noice, yip yip yip :rolleyes:

Then judging by all your posts and hot air, then you must be one tiny little dog.

[lkfmdc]

yip yip yip

do you feel important when you post on the forum? I know, it's nice when mommy lets you play on the computer :rolleyes:

[SavvySavage]

This is an interesting sparring thread. I didn't realize there were so many non mixed martial artists around which is kind of funny. Anyway.

Sparring, in my opinion, should be done like so. One drill is where person A can only kick. Person B can only punch and then both people switch. Then you have person A doing any technique he wants while person B trains one or a few moves. So Person B might only be allowed to throw element punches or one kind of element punch. This will teach person B where that punch will work and where it won't. He can deflect as well but his main attacks will be very limited.

The above paragraph SHOULD only be done by experienced martial artists. It's hard to find experienced martial artists. You have a lot of people who show good stuff but when they spar or chi sao they get very tense and lose all sense of what they're doing. I would refer to this kind of person as a not so experienced martial artist. So how do you solve this? Some believe that if you keep throwing that tense awkward person into the lions den, sparring round after round, he will turn from a frog into a prince. Wrong.

I believe the individual needs to figure out how to pull of REAL kung fu moves on his own outside of sparring. Too many people train forms, drills, and footwork only to become kickboxers during sparring. If you're just going to revert to darting in and out with jabs and fast kicks then you're wasting my time and yours. And you've also wasted all of your years of training in your system. Sparring will takes a lot of thought and practice. This practice should be done alone and drilling with a partner. A big guy who just moves forward and overpowers his sparring partners is just that; A big guy throwing around his weight. Try to focus on applying techniques learned in class.

Injuries:
Once we were training for a tournament. EVeryone was sparring pretty hard. As the tournament date crepped closer I noticed the injured areas of my body outnumbered the uninjured parts. Only my head was left! And then one fateful night we were all taken out by a senior student. He was hitting WAY to fuking hard and the injury I sustained that night(years ago) still haunts me today. None of us could enter the tournament after going one single round with him. That's the danger of sparring. To many stupid people just get in and start swinging. I made up this saying. "Just because someone has a bulletproof vest on that doesn't mean you can just take gun shots at him." The same goes with sparring gear. My good friend unintentionally punched in the head out of a nervous reaction. I wanted to kill him. He didn't do it on purpose but my brain didn't feel very well for a bit. Know what I mean, jellybean? Right now I have an injury on my wrist. I put trauma linament on it, do rehab exercises and all that BUT I keep reinjuring it. Every time I get together for drilling or chi sao it always gets hit no matter how well I keep it tucked. I'm being dumb in a way because I should do other things and let it heal but chi sao is so much fun. The main thing about injuries we all have to keep track of is if they're actually healing. Pressure testing and getting injured don't need to be hand in hand. Getting injuries actually hinders your training and makes you worse(because of recovery time) rather than making you stronger. I can't believe some people on this board have the super saiyan mentality. A saiyan(dragon ball z) gets stronger each time he gets beat in a fight and badly injured. The worse his injuries are they stronger he becomes. Folks, this is a fantasy cartoon. You want to limit your injuries especially as you get older.

Lovers you

[YouKnowWho]

Talking about sparring, do you think a teacher should spar with his students? If the teacher always beats up his students and never give his students any chance to execute their moves then the students may soon lost confidence in themselves. Sometime the teacher’s teaching is not because the money or promoting the arts, but for his own self benefit. Get a group of people so he can polish his own skill. Is that terrible wrong?

Some people said, "If you teach him then you don't fight him, and if you fight him then you are not teaching him". What do you think on this?

[Yum Cha]

Hi Ravenshaw,
Thanks for Pharmakon, I like it.
In reply, I want to remind you I never said there should be no sparring, just poised several questions on how to make it improve traditional skills, not weaken them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Yum Cha

So, how do you train to spar with traditional techniques, without reverting to "gweilo kune?" The $64 question.

It is probably one of the biggest puzzles facing the traditional arts these days

So, sparring in TCMA, and I am only talking about TCMA, is not a simple proposition. The "Cure" is just as often the "Poison".



I guess what I'm wondering is why that would be if the techniques are effective? And why are we reducing sparring methods which incorporate modern methods to "gweilo kune?" If it's not pure CMA, we get "white people fighting?"

The traditional techniques are lost because you can't do them with gloves, shin guards, vests, facemasks, etc. They get lost because the best ones are "fight enders" and you can't play them. The scenario sets the interaction. The scenario becomes the issue, not the techniques.

So, the alternative is to reduce the protection. That makes a major difference. Mouthguard only takes a lot of courage out of a lot of attackers, who can no longer hide behind 12 oz of face protection, if you catch my drift. Rib shots take on a new meaning. But, you just can take it to the limit and not get the kind of injuries that make it non-sustainable.


The Greek "pharmakon." Why do you suggest that sparring is a "poison?"

The traditional techniques, hard to lump such a wide and varied category into one basic example, but when you reduce to the lowest common denomenator, and a high pressure level, people revert to what they know, not what they need to learn. Several people have talked about controlled sparring for that very reason, to build up confidence in more complex techniques. This is the issue, building confidence in stylistic or complex techniques instead of pulling the standard down with lowest common denominator practice.

If you want to train to spar, fair enough, I got no problem with that, but if you want to train to fight with traditional skills, you don't get apple juice from oranges.



Sparring teaches you the most important skills in fighting. Technique is not the most important skill. You learn timing, speed, distance, what works, and what's dubious. How do you suggest learning these skills without sparring?

I agree wholeheartedly, and I never said there should be no sparring. This is the big lesson, what I call "ringcraft". Engagement strategy, ringcraft and technique. You have to teach it all, and practice it all. The question I poise is how to do it to your advantage, to the advantage of your style, and not to the detriment and simplification. You can teach ringcraft progressively. I find that its like a puzzle, work on little pieces over time, than put several together, than several others, than those bigger pieces together, until finally you are working on the whole puzzle.

On the topic of pain and injury. This is the second gift of sparring. A shot in the janglies, a shot to the head that "rings the bell", being winded, dropped, and the general pain of it all is as much a part of martial arts training as anything else. The lesson is not who can hit the most, but who can take the most pain. Take the pain and you will triumph against a better opponent. It is supposed to hurt. That's why I hate this idea of padding up like a foam sumo wrestler and calling it "sparring".



"Knowing what to do" is not the same as being able to pull it off proficiently.

Knifefighter -
"Dance around like bugs" Some of your best work dude....Nice turn of phrase.

As for compliant opponents, grapplers train with compliant opponents too, in all but the most competitive events, there is a measure of compliance, for the sake of training. Your vid with the Wing Chun guy, the biographics of the the pro MMA guys, BJJ training videos, compliance is part of the training format across all martial arts.

Art is not in what is done, but in the doing. I don't think it is restricted to tcma, but there are components of TCMA that don't exist in MMA, just like reverse.

[Yum Cha]

Talking about sparring, do you think a teacher should spar with his students? If the teacher always beats up his students and never give his students any chance to execute their moves then the students may soon lost confidence in themselves. Sometime the teacher’s teaching is not because the money or promoting the arts, but for his own self benefit. Get a group of people so he can polish his own skill. Is that terrible wrong?

Some people said, "If you teach him then you don't fight him, and if you fight him then you are not teaching him". What do you think on this?

Senior students teach junior students about fighting. They don't "fight" them, they don't use them as practice dummies. They give, they don't take. So, I guess I agree.

[Knifefighter]

Sparring, in my opinion, should be done like so. One drill is where person A can only kick. Person B can only punch and then both people switch. Then you have person A doing any technique he wants while person B trains one or a few moves. So Person B might only be allowed to throw element punches or one kind of element punch. This will teach person B where that punch will work and where it won't. He can deflect as well but his main attacks will be very limited.

The above paragraph SHOULD only be done by experienced martial artists.
No... this should be a sparring progression for advanced novices and intermediate students..

[Knifefighter]

So, as a rebuttal opportunity here for the sparring advocates, how then do you practice maiming or lethal applications in sparring safely?

For example, neck cranks, arm breaks, throws, eye gouges, throat grabs, etc. ???
- Throws- on mats
- Neck cranks, breaks- respect the tap.
- Eye gouges- eye protection.
- Throat grabs- do whatever you want with those. They don't work against someone who has half a clue.

[Knifefighter]

Some people said, "If you teach him then you don't fight him, and if you fight him then you are not teaching him". What do you think on this?
Sparring with the instructor is a great way to see how he puts the techniques he is teaching you into practice.

[Knifefighter]

Look at the training of professional fighters like Tito Ortiz or Rich Franklin. How much time do they spend in competitive, unstructured sparring? From their shows on T.V., it would seem none.
They save it for the fight.
Fighting can take the place of some of sparring practice. The more one fights, the less he needs to spar.

[Knifefighter]

Your ignorance knows no bounds. One has nothing to do with the other. You either fight or you don't, "period". Whether or not a form is invloved in training is non sequitur.
Actually, you are the one who seems to be stagnating in ignorance.

I'm not claiming they are exclusive. Whether or not one does forms, if he fights he will know that fighting is not pretty and will not make the claim that CMA fighting techniques are somehow more of an art form than are those of boxing, kickboxing or grappling.

[Fuzzly]

I love to spar with my instructor/sifu. I've never actually gone "all out", because if we did, I would never learn anything because I would be shut out all the time. I don't think compliance is always a bad thing. There's an %80 rule I've heard. It states that someone should be suceeding <sp?> %80 of the time. If they succeed <sp? lol> more than %80, it's too easy for them, and they won't focus because of it. If they suceed much less than that, they get discouraged and frustrated, and give up.

I'm not going to argue whether it is %80 or not, but I believe that there needs to be a balance between sucess and failure for the reasons stated above.